"Since the Iraq War began, aerospace and defense industry stocks have more than doubled."

This is the reason for the Iraq War and just about every war. And look at Exxon/Mobil and the other oil exploiters' profits. This is what we get when military contractors own media outlets (GE, NBC, etc).

The defense and aerospace industries are America and have been since World War I.
Their positions were permanently consolidated
after the 1929 Crash and the interests of
Wall Street firms and brokerages, that basically own these companies, have more or less controlled events ever since. It is not
without irony that young John Kennedy gave his
last speech at General Dynamics in Ft.Worth,
Texas and had prepared a statement that would
have basically called off the cold war. The
speech of course, was never circulated, and
Kennedy never made it home as we all know.
There has been a defense gravy train ever since and a necessary war like clockwork to
keep it running smoothly.

"This is the reason for the Iraq War and just about every war."

Confusion of cause and effect. Wars are *always* profitable for certain segments and companies, but that doesn't prove that the desire for those profits cause the war. You have to make a specific case that it is true. Rothschild certainly hasn't done that.

My pointing out the laziness in this kind of thinking is not any proof that I support the war, so please don't go there.

"The defense and aerospace industries are America "

!?

"Wall Street firms and brokerages, that basically own these companies"

Evidence?

Those who control their anger by dealing with it first and then control their desire for revenge on those who are its cause by dealing with that desire, will have the clarity of mind to deal with such circumstances as are deescribed in the article above.

The Masters of War on corporate welfare.
Hoa binh

jakenewton:

Evidence? For starters, read
Trusts, Pools and Corporations by Harvard
Professor, William Z. Ripley, published
by Ginn and Co. in 1916: See the National
Cash Register Case on patents on p.695
Follow their leaders to the New York Banks
in 1929 and later to aviation and defense
industries. Charles Deeds and Charles Kettering would be prominent on the list.
Harold Talbot would also factor in.

See:Prophet without Honor by well known
journalists: Emile Gauvreau and Lester Cohen
E.P. Dutton and Co. 1942

See the Hugo Black Hearings of 1934: Note
that William Boeing made a cool nine million
off a 350.00 investment in 1929 in Curtiss
Wright which was overcapitalized by millions.
The President of City National made 15 million
during the same period.They were not among
those few that did go to jail.

See the intrical involvement of Chase and
City Bank in New York, with Elihu Root and the
Cravath Law Firm creating the heretofore
nonexistent aviation industry in 1929.

See Leading Constitutional Decisions by Robert
E. Cushman, published by Appleton-Century in1955.

See The Diary of Ambassador Dodd (Franklin
Roosevelt's appointee to Hilter's Germany
in 1933)

Read the private papers (Aerospace Museum)
of once well known, but forgotten aviation
pioneer, James Vernon Martin, of Harvard and
holder of primary aviation patents.

Read the sad details of the scandal between
Woodrow Wilson and his volatile,genius friend
Gutzom Borglum: all available in public sources over the "aviation scandal."

Read the compromized history of NACA.Try
and identify the evolution of the policy where
anyone working for the US govt or government
contractor has to relinquish their patent
rights.This was strategic in creating the
defense industry monopolies.

See the antitrust suit from the US Justice
Dept. against the Sperry Gyroscope Co.,Inc.
settled out of court in 1942 due to the war.
Obtainable under a FOIA.Study the members of
the voting trust controlling Sperry, Inc.

See Blowback by Linda Hunt and the involvement
of Robert A. Lovett, high defense official,
son of a partner of Baker, Botts, in Houston
and member of the Sperry Voting Trust and
Brown Brothers Harriman in the 1950's/
Lovett was key in bringing Nazi engineers to
the US illegally to continue developing
Robert Goddard's well known patents stolen
by the Germans during the war.

Study the backgrounds of the founders of
General Dynamics; Lockheed Martin, Rockwell
International...

Follow the money of Draper Labs at MIT and
their involvement in the development of
gyroscopic instrumentation and see if you can
determine the origins of the same.

Finally, for starters, read The Rise of
United Technologies, Excess Profits, by
Ronald Fernandez. Published by Addison Wesley
in 1983 and probably the most accessible.

Also, if you can now find them, read the
Robert Goddard Papers published by Harry
Guggenheim. Good luck and good reading.

JAKEFIGLESS -- You appear to me as nothing but a nano-NAT spuriously twitching about throwing drek into perfection.

May your perceived smallness overcome any imagined purpose until you disappear from our notice, forever

FIGLESS "Character, in great and little things, means carrying through what you feel able to do."
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Namaste

Brilliant post, Marion Shaw. namaste, you seek jakenewton's disappearance, be careful what you wish for, he/she elicits/provokes some of the best commentary here, whatever his/her intentions.

Hey Jakenewton I notice you are up to your old Rovian tricks of baiting the chook-house with pesticide...

Big_Money -- OK, I withdraw my diminution and replace it with a challenge to draw us ALL into greater diversity of knowledge and understanding.

I apologize for over-reacting to Fig's challenge of proving that war is created by warmongering profiteering elitist scum. Of course, it is the pacifists, organic farmers, and clergy that create all wars - as a method to grow their businesses.

So be it so.

Namaste

Marion Shaw -- You are luminously focusing us upon crucial issues worthy of much greater public exposure, clarity and open debate.

Kudos, three cheers, and around round on me (if you can ever find me near a bar).

Namaste

Marion, I asked you for evidence that "Wall street frims and Brokerages own these companies", and you instead provided a reading list. MAybe you could provide an example?

Wall street firms and brokerages trade shares on behalf of the wishes of individual and institutional clients.

"You appear to me as nothing but a nano-NAT spuriously twitching about throwing drek into perfection."

Interesting that you are unable to say why. My statements and questions were very specific, and should be easy for you to address specifically rather then engaging in silly name calling.

"Hey Jakenewton I notice you are up to your old Rovian tricks of baiting the chook-house with pesticide…"

By asking for someone to provide an argument for something they assert? If they are right about that, it should be easy to show why.

Or by suggesting the confusion of cause and effects around war profits as I did? If I am wrong about that, it should be easy to show why.

If you think either is "tricky" I just don't know what to say.

Another minor point: Rothschild says nothing specific about the *profits* of any company, only mentioning the appreciation of the stock which is not at all the same thing. I for one would have been interested in the profitability of those companies, as the headline seemed to promise, but it's not there.

Jakenewton:
I wish I could get my "evidence" on a t-shirt but only "Hail Hitler" seems to have
accomplished that goal. Afterall, this is merely a blog, not a court of law.

Marion, I have too many teeshirts. Instead, if you could just provide a specific example of a Wall Street firm or brokerage that owns the defence industry. Or maybe someone else could.

Is it possible you meant to say something else?

Damn, I thought he might actually challenge me to prove that:
Of course, it is the pacifists, organic farmers, and clergy that create all wars - as a method to grow their businesses.

Namaste

Now, why would silly-ass 'Progressives' still Trust someone named "Rothschild"?
[sheesh!]
[Does NO ONE read any History, anymore?]

Namaste, you ignored a point I made earlier. Just because certain sectors or business profit from war does not mean that they cause them. Confusion of cause and effect. It remains up to you to prove the reasons for any given war, aside from the inevitable profits. Forget the flowery prose and quotes, focus on the task.

OK, it looks like General Dynamic's '07 profits were a whopping 7.7% of revenues. Disgusting.

Damn, this IS the problem. MeAlsoToo_ARealist saw it immediately, I don't understand, if you newspeak, outspeak, speak for, against, what the fuck ever, but get off the high horse.
Do you think others take you as seriously as you seem to take yourselves? I can assure you, they do not. It is precisely due to this type of elitist bullshit that average, quite caring, gentle folk are ZZZZZZIPPPPPPPPPPPPPP GONE.
They feel intimidated by you, whereas I being quite crazy, could give a shit. I happened to have lived and worked incredibly hard my life, thought now time for what I need to do, now life happened. I know my worth, I have sense of self, what you nor what anyone, other than my daughters, have to say or in your ever oh so intimidating fucked up way you treat others by ignoring them, I could give a fuck.
I paid my dues, I have traveled, I have seen, I have done, I still care for this country, you assholes scaring everyone away have 0 effect on me Boot didn't kill me you acting in the manner that causes working persons, persons that want to learn, need to know, you ignore, monitor or fucking start with the piss-ant ladeeda she she crap, it allows people to feel demeaned and scared, you, most are incredibly rude to anyone when not as per quorum ignoring them, because that is certainly a talent no mere mortal should hope to ever attain.
The only worthwhile morsel I gathered in the past 10 days by listening, was namaste, re; The Science of Ponerology(evil).
Everything else was yup, who 'ya votin fer PERGREssiveees/bullshit. You are nasty, miserable, regardless of age, majority white male simps. Damn, what I would not give for 2 minutes alone with..

jakenewton, some people have no time for or patience with sophistry.

Who's to say such a thing as cause and effect even exist? You certainly can't prove it. Other cultures grow up with an "interdependent co-arising" view of phenomena.

Why are the rest of you allowing yourselves to get caught up in this tail chasing?

"some people have no time for or patience with sophistry."

Call it whatever you want. I have no time for parroting of cliches that cannot be shown to be true.

"Who's to say such a thing as cause and effect even exist? You certainly can't prove it. Other cultures grow up with an "interdependent co-arising" view of phenomena."

Talk about sophistry.

You can believe what you want. If you beleive the above, than I don't expect for you to make charges that some particular war was started for someone's profit. Meanwhile other people do this all the time.

It is true that defense industries may not
cause wars initially, but if Hitler had not
had airplanes, bombs, navigational equipment
and bomb racks, sold to him by American com-
panies (all well documented), it is doubtful
he could have brought Europe to its knees.
And many of the directors of those companies
were also directors of major banks and brokerages. This is proven beyond any doubt
in the literature regardless of t-shirt ideology.
The same would be true of Japan, who were
supplied by the same companies. Once the war
was on, they then became super patriots and
are still making great deals of money, many
companies being directed by grandsons. Villages are still burning and little children are still getting their hands blown off. Those weapons are not being produced in
the caves of Afghanistan.

I recently finished reading Nick Turse's book

I recently finished reading Nick Turse's book THE COMPLEX - How the Military Invades Our Everyday Lives. We have been invaded and overwhelmed by the Pentagon and all the war makers in the corporate world. We will not have peace anytime soon. We have become a culture of war. Was is big business and extremely profitable. No one can audit the Pentagon and so contractors charge the highest rediculous price possible. It is amazing and frightening. The Pentagon is out of control and run amock!

" but if Hitler had not
had airplanes, bombs, navigational equipment
and bomb racks, sold to him by American com-
panies (all well documented), "

Now you have an entirely new and unrelated point to make. Best example of a US company that sold armaments to Germany? The Germans were fully capable of arming themselves thank you very much. Last I checked Messerschmidt, Focke Wulf, Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken, Henschel, Krupp, Porsche, etc. were *German* companies.

The German industries were severely crippled
by World War I. Aviation was still in its
infancy by 1929. Check out Ambassador Dodd's
letters to FDR; his diaries and his other
writings. Hitler was buying American airplanes
in gold. You wanted a specific example of
a relationship between an American bank,
defense industry and war; there it is. It
is not changing the subject; it is the subject. Yes, German industry was humming along by the late 1930;s but had a hefty
headstart from select Wall Street firms.
I give them the benefit of the doubt that they
did not foresee Hitler's final solution for
the Jews, but as Dodd said, the US bankers
knew Hitler's views on the Jews but seemed to
feel they could work with him anyway. And indeed they did. As for Krupp, read William Manchester's book on The Arms of Krupp: it was
the Korean war that saved Alfried and got
him out of jail for his little administration
of the worst concentration camp in history.
His US banking friends thought he could make
better tanks. And so it goes.

Those who profit from war are the most disgusting humans on the planet and that's really saying something.

I wonder when they kiss their kids, the ones who are being driven by a chauffeur to their Exclusive Private School, whether they ever think about the kids being killed so they can have it all?

I guess not! Silly question!

www.dangerouscreation.com

"Hitler was buying American airplanes
in gold."

When and what?

"You wanted a specific example of
a relationship between an American bank,
defense industry and war; there it is. "

No no no. You claimed that Wall street firms and brokerages owned defence industries *today*.

" As for Krupp, read..."

No. Krupp was a *German* company.

You can't tell the players without a program.

http://www.publicintegrity.org/wow/bio.aspx?act=pro&fil=IQ

How many of our elected officials (held to a higher standard) profit from the above Merchants of Death?

"How many of our elected officials (held to a higher standard) profit from the above Merchants of Death?"

You can't tell from the list provided, it's simply a list of military contractors.

Wow, Armamant stocks tripled, and it only cost 2.2 US soldiers lives each day for the last 1825 days..what a bargain!

canuckchuck
1.2 million dead Iraqis
4.5 million internal and external refugees
number of wounded iraqis incalculable

4000 dead US soldiers
11,000 uncounted and Pentagon cover-ups dead US soldiers
60,000 seriously wounded
300,000 US soldier PTSD cases

3 Trillion accrued debt to 2018
7 Trillion deficit spending
15% unpublished M3 expansion monitizing debt
Untold cost to US image, reputation and good-will abroard
1 US dollar = 1.55 Euros [ie into the toilet]
7% Real Inflation
US infrasture, Health System, major utilities in RUINS
etc....etc....etc....etc....etc....etc....etc....etc....etc....etc....

"...WOW Armamant stocks tripled..."

WHAT A DREADFUL INCALCULABLE COST....

As for you "Jakey Boy" and your pesticide spreading logic, I still don't know why you bother with your mendacities...getting bored over at Murdock's FOX???

It is not just important to know that they are doing it, but how they do it - how they set things up between government and arms dealers which make these deals harder to fight until it is too late:

In a preliminary report in January, Johnston suggested a relatively narrow investigation of the business dealings between former prime minister Brian Mulroney and arms dealer Karlheinz Schreiber.

Mulroney has admitted taking $225,000 from Schreiber to lobby international leaders on behalf of a project to build German-designed light armoured vehicles in Canada for export.

Schreiber says the total was $300,000 and Mulroney was supposed to lobby the Canadian government after leaving office -- a move that could have put him in violation of federal ethics rules.

The Liberals and NDP have been arguing for a wider mandate that would cover an earlier deal in which Air Canada bought European-made Airbus jets while Mulroney was still in power.

http://patmartin.ndp.ca/page/245

So they arranged, including some offshore money--they were trying to get Conservative governments elected worldwide--to overturn the leadership of Joe Clark. They found what they believed to be a bright, young, perfectly bilingual gentleman with business experience, with charisma, with a certain panache, and they saw him as the vehicle to getting power in Canada. He was somebody who could align all who were on the right political side of the country and bring some people from the centre.

They were successful. They overturned Joe Clark's leadership. They got Brian Mulroney elected as leader of the Conservative Party. They immediately decided how they were going to set things up. What would be the structure? How would one do business with the Government of Canada in the upcoming Mulroney era? ...

Mr. Wolf was another operative, as well as Mr. Schreiber, and it became their job to get Airbus into Canada. They had built the political contacts. They negotiated a deal, an arrangement, as to how they would be getting paid. From Airbus they would be getting $20 million. They decided how to work it.

I remember a quote by Mr. Schreiber suggesting that Strauss had said that he was either "an idiot or a genius", because what he devised was that they would go through a smaller company and get Airbus on the ground and flying. It would be so efficient, so much better on fuel and operating costs, that once they got some on the ground in North America, all the other airlines would have to buy it. ...

The idea was that Germany would then be able to export into countries, which the German constitution and the law did not permit, through Canada or other countries, manufactured in Canada to an open market. ...

One of the guys who was involved from the very beginning, brought in because he could bring German money into the leadership, was Karlheinz Schreiber. Karlheinz had been in the country for quite some time and even had Canadian citizenship. He was well established in the Bavarian region in Germany. He was known to Franz Josef Strauss, minister-president of Bavaria. He was well connected with Thyssen Industries, Airbus and MBB. He was well connected with all the industrial companies of that area.

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=39&Ses=2&DocId=3315922

The thing that amazes me is that if a Democrat did any of this, the Republicans would be howling fowl like mad. Now that their people are doing this it is all in the name of patriotism. Remember how the Republicans ranted about the deficits, the ones that Reagan and H.W. Bush racked up were fine, but Clinton...OMG. Then Bill balanced the budget and ran a surplus and they wondered how they could give the surplus to the rich. Now that G.W. Bush has added three trillion dollars to the debt, you do not hear a peep out of them.

Americans have a historical example as a response to internal cabals that set themselves apart from our (un)duly elected government, or even those we see as traitorous to our Constitution and interests - John Brown, an extreme but effective expression of taking power back into the hands of the people. He made some bad mistakes that could be improved on, but he knew what it took to face evil. So did US soldiers in WWII.

Anyone that thinks that words are going to stop arms companies is a dreamer and lazy. Maybe the voters will get luckier this time, but somehow I doubt it. Democracy takes respect from the government as well as the governed. When the government ignores the laws that give it legitimacy, the people are cut free to ignore those laws, and obliged to act.

The US military is deployed usually to defend some corporate interest.
The US government is controlled by a ruling/corporate elite.
Resources are wasted by war that are sorely needed in other places.
Can it be proved? I am sure. Can I prove it? Probobly not.
I just want it to stop, I demand an end to it!!!!!!!!!!!

jakenewton ~

Not all may agree with your inputs, that is for certain. But it is telling to see how the unconsciously witless gather to toss back juvenile names and weak epithets, not recognizing for a single moment that you are attempting to engage in debate and discourse which is designed to promote a balanced & thoughtful examination of military expenditures.

Rest assured, not all react so sophomorically.

Some recognize, like I do, that the "guns vs. butter" debate has existed as long as either resource, and it is a zero sum debate. You must have butter (food, water, shelter) to survive. You must have safety and security (military & defense) to survive. Neither can be done away with personally, or legislated away nationally, if we are to survive in the long term.

With regard to the name-callers here, it's best to consider the source and shrug them off. They have little to offer in the discussion, and wouldn't recognize a real debate if it jumped up and bit them on the rhetorical posterior. Note: They are easily identified by their liberal use of phrases such as "neo-con", "tool" and "Rovian" instead of actual thought and substantial intellectual debate.

Let us not forget the name of this site.."Common DREAMS"..NOT Common DEBATE.
We are here to SHARE each others opinions,not to disect and refute them.

jakenewton, pdf, What is your point? That you are great debators? Obviously you are. I am not , so you would win in a debate with me. However it would not change my mind nor I yours. pdf, why not a reasoned approach to foreign policy instead of 'shoot first, ask questions later'? Did I miss something in Iraq? Is safety and security only possible with military might? I don't have any access to facts and figures to figure out just who does what in implementing a military campaign such as we are in. I do see a connection between the neoconservative manifesto of the American Enterprise Institute and the the Bush administration. I see a vice president totally dismiss the wishes of 75% of the American people who disagree with the AEI. I remember when we had actual investigative reporters who would have made at least some kind of noise throughout the last 7 years. Why don't we hear any of them now, at least an 'I looked but didn't find anything'. There is something rotten in this country, we need a wake up call, not a debate.

What war?
Wars....occupations..... all the same to arms manufacturers. Hey, it's what we do fools! Yeah there are humanitarian things we could do instead and make lots of money but we're so good at making war. Long history of it.

Let's start with these:

"1.2 million dead Iraqis"

Grossly overblown most likely. You are either ignorant or disengenuous to except the Lancet numbers without question. Likely a goulish example of wishful thinking on your part to repeat the figure without question.

"11,000 uncounted and Pentagon cover-ups dead US soldiers"

Oh come on. What dark moist place did you pull this from?

"7 Trillion deficit spending"

Yet another example of listing a big number without proper context ( you are supposed to compare it to GDP).

"7% Real Inflation"

Source?

"Jakey Boy"

Classy. Call me any name you want, I will be much more interested in your posts when you are ready to support them with facts and reasoning.

"Not all may agree with your inputs, that is for certain. But it is telling to see how the unconsciously witless gather to toss back juvenile names and weak epithets, not recognizing for a single moment that you are attempting to engage in debate and discourse which is designed to promote a balanced & thoughtful examination of military expenditures."

Thank you.

"Let us not forget the name of this site.."Common DREAMS"..NOT Common DEBATE."

Does this mean that bad ideas and lack of reasoning should go unchallenged? That's not "ideas" that ought to have any worth.

"What is your point?"

There is nothing "progressive" about offering or repeating bad ideas and arguments based on faulty reasoning. That is all.

simonhhh - cannuckchuck was being sarcastic and just pointing out the number of soldier deaths - though it is good to be reminded how many innocent Iraqi men women and children are also being slaughtered in the name of profit.

The argument about whether German used German companies or American companies - though the corporate candidate, I am sure that there were neeches (sp?) that the local corporations could not fill. Also, there may have been some co-operation among German and American corporations in certain areas.

German corporations, as much as they still existed after WWI did play a role in bring Hitler to power.

RE: - This is what we get when military contractors own media outlets (GE, NBC, etc).

What about PBS? What about the foreign press that you rely on to tell you what the American press doesn't? How much of that is owned or funded (via commercials/donations) by military contractors?

RE: - Wars are *always* profitable for certain segments and companies, but that doesn't prove that the desire for those profits cause the war.

This is the old correlation does not necessarily mean correlation argument because there could always be a third factor linked to both. One can want a war and profit from said war without acting in a way to cause such a war.

In the case of Cheney, who is on record for both wanting the war enough to alter information and profiting from the war, the two are correlated, though.

RE: - The Masters of War on corporate welfare.

It was David Lewis (Naomi Klein's grandfather-in-law) who coined the phrase "corporate welfare bums." One thing that makes it likely that those who most profited from the Iraq war acted to bring it about is all the no bit contracts. Do you remember reading the following from December 15, 2003:

No blood, no booty

All those poor nations that were strong-armed into joining Washington's "coalition of the willing" finally got their reward last week — their companies will be permitted to bid on $18 billion worth of Pentagon contracts for reconstructing Iraq. ...

Meanwhile, countries in the coalition of the unwilling — including Canada — are barred from the Pentagon contracts, illustrating again that the Bush administration seems to regard Iraq as a treasure chest of spoils, to be doled out only to those who have helped in the heist.

http://www.rabble.ca/columnists_full.shtml?sh_itm=bbb86817b2802d87e422b767a1ebefc4&rXn=1&

RE: - wish I could get my "evidence" on a t-shirt but only "Hail Hitler" seems to haveaccomplished that goal.

"Heil" is a greating wishing a person a long life - which is why the t-shirt doesn't say "Heil Bush." Didn't Milton Friedman do more damage than even Bush! Prefer "Bleach is evil" myself.

The Mennonites, who have been speaking out against the war in Iraq from the start are also German.

jakenewton wrote: Best example of a US company that sold armaments to Germany?

The German GM group developed and built motors for the Messerschmidt 262 (GM went unpunished after the war; in fact, they were awarded a $33 million tax exemption on profits for its destroyed factories in Germany and Austria by the US government).

SKF (Swedish Enskilda Bank) was the colossal ball-bearings trust. Goering's cousin, Hugo von Rosen, and William Batt, Vice Chair of the US War Production Board, were directors of SKF in America throughout the war. Ball-bearings were essential -- tanks, trucks, planes, armored cars, U-boats, railroads, ITT's communication devices, guns, and bombsights would have been powerless without them. SKF not only controlled ball-bearings but, since its inception in 1907, it controlled iron ore mines, steel and blast furnaces, foundries, factories and plants in US, Germany, France, and Britain. The largest share of its production was allocated to Germany: 60 per cent.

In 1942 Standard Oil of New Jersey shipped fuel to Germany through neutral Switzerland.

The Chase Bank in Nazi-occupied Paris did millions of dollars worth of business with the enemy with the full knowledge of the head office in Manhattan.

Ford trucks were built for the German occupation troops in France.

American telephone conglomerate ITT improved Hitler's communications Systems and designed the V1 robot bombs that devastated London. ITT also built Focke-Wulf 170s.

Want more? See "Trading with the Enemy", Charles Higham, Delacourte Press, NY USA.

jakenewton's response is "Grossly overblown most likely"

How is that even one murdered in an illegal occupation is OK with your pristine reasoning and logic?

You squabble about the numbers, while tens of millions suffer. If you considered it as a ratio within your perceptual cocoon, from 1-5 % of the population is dead, and those who are left can barely hold onto sanity, while 10% are likely refugees and 70% no longer at home.

Think about all the people you know, and all those connected, and let those ratios sink into your thinking for a moment. In the USA, 1-5% dead would be tens of millions - and I would hope cause you a bit more concern than your trivial dismissal above.

Do you ever read back into your brain what you write, and attempt to think what an Iraqi mother with ten close relatives dead might think? Obliviously not.

Namaste