Our democracy suffers from the "penalty of taking the lead". That is what happens when you are the first to design say a car factory. Then you are stuck with a big old plant that cost a lot to build while other people in the world are building newer and better designed facilities.

When democracy was established here it was the newest design and better than many others. However, aside from enfranchising many excluded groups, the design was not improved and became entrenched. It is creaky and obsolete.

We have limitations based on the desire to contain the popular will and concentrate power in the aristocracy, nicely explained above by Rick March. (thanks Rick) We have other peculiarities such as the electoral college that are vestiges from a time when horse was the main mode of transportation in a huge country and each region has its local land aristocracy. The Senate violates "one person, one vote" by giving more power to small states, for reasons that now make no sense.

The organization of democratic systems has been improved in other places to allow for

1. direct voting - one person, one vote throughout

2. elections when needed because of crisis of confidence

3. shared power by a variety of minority parties

I do not know how they handle the domination by big money. One way would be to ban TV stations and public debates from excluding people who are on the ballot, as was done here most notably to Kucinich.

It is common sense and would be well understood by the public to demand direct voting rather than the electoral college, conventions, super-delegates and such.

We should do more with referendums to recall, impeach etc, although that is hard and tedious.

We should challenge the regulations that make it so difficult for minority parties to get on the ballot and get press coverage.

noliesplease, some of us do more than whine on CD here. The problem is, we are a minority, and while polls do indicate a majority of the public agree with us, they don't make those calls or write those letters. I do, and fat lot of good it gets me. Even Peter DeFazio isn't responding to my calls. And he's supposed to be a progressive. People used to be more activist. During the Korean "police action", Eisenhower used to ask his advisers "How many bags of rice today?" as people protesting the war were mailing him bags of rice. He was paying attention. The current occupant doesn't give a damn. As he so famously said to a roomful of wealthy diners, captured on Fahrenheit 9/11, "Some call you the haves and have mores, I call you my base".

That is one thing that attracts me to Obama. He says change must come from the bottom, and a real leader will go where the people push. But that's only if we elect a leader who actually wants to represent us, and he's the only one I see out there who wants to do that. The rest of them only want to talk to us once every four years. Certainly Bill Clinton ignored the will and needs of the people when choices between the haves and have nots came up and for all her protests to the contrary, Hillary was fine with NAFTA, as recently released records and statements from Clinton officials have shown.

kathyodat

The arrogant, disgraceful Cheney and the other corruptors of our democracy should read the Constitution and realize that it applies to them.

The Bill of Rights, Article I, lists what basic rights the founding fathers considered as most important. Why else would it have been the first of the initial ten? It says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Pretty powerful stuff! Public opinion is the measure of how the public feels about any issue raised in polls. It SHOULD be considered by the elected officials as the level of approval (or disapproval) of the elected officials on current issues. As we see daily, the WILL of the people is DISREGARDED and they (the elected officials) CAN disregard because we LET them. There are Constitutional provisions dealing with those that commit "...Treason, Bribery, or other high crimes and Misdemeanors." Article II, Section 4, US Constitution. This applies not only to "the President, and Vice-President", but to "all civil Officers of the United States." Where could this lead?

Collectively, we are too uninformed and too lazy to become informed. There are those of us that are informed, but don't act, myself included. We just respond in posts like this, but don't do the actual activism that gets noticed by politicians and policy makers: phone calls, letters, emails, event attendance, office visits. Ask the tough questions and demand answers and action.

We have the power, but it isn't best spent by bitching, whinning, or name calling. We all recognize the problems and can embrace any number of progressive solutions floating around out there. CD is a wonderful place for education of issues and possibilities, but if all we do collectively is hammer out our comments and frustrations, we're wasting our energy and potential to help bring about real change. Who are we going to influence by commenting? Remember, we're the choir. There IS a value to some of the comments as further information is diseminated in some cases, but most are blaming, nit-picking, fault finding screeds that waste valuable time and energy. Admittedly, it does make one feel better to vent, but that anger can be redirected to positive action.

It is time to divert some of this wasted energy to actual positive activities; so make those calls, write those letters, send those emails, attend those town hall meetings or campaign events, visit their offices, be thorns in their sides, pains in their arses, get their attention, tell them how you feel, let them know you're watching their votes, demand change for the betterment of our democracy, volunteer in a progressive campaign, or run for an elected office yourself. These are many ways, both large and small, to help change the current course. IT'S UP TO US!!

First, we have to quit bitching about how bad things ARE (and they ARE terrible) and start working towards how much better they CAN BE!.

people also think the boss should listen to the ideas of employees too

They aren't stupid enough to hold their breath waiting for that either. Ever since we got human resources departments and politicians who claim to be working for us, the people have been shafted at every turn.

"American Public Says Government Leaders Should Pay Attention to Polls"

And, they say: "So?"
And I-say: "Well, what will any DO about that 'So'?"...

New poll in...Dana Perino is 100% ignorant !
Perfect shill for Bu$hCo.
You don't have to read or think, just parrot talking points and act like you have a brain.

plenipotentiated said: "Opinion polls, most of which are private, MSM-sponsored anyway, are, unlike official ballots, understood to be manipulable, completely unreliable"

There's little argument that even under the best conditions (such as polls are scientifically designed and honest efforts are made to remove biases in the phrasing of the questions) we will still end up with responses that in one way or another can't escape some sort of ideological framing. But that kind of shortcoming affects mostly the absolute numbers reported (such as, it the percent of discontent Americans 60% or 80%, etc). In most polls, however, we can still learn something useful about our world when the same methodology guides the polling in different countries. Whatever biases are inherent to the methodology apply more or less equally to the different countries, so differences between countries do become informative. The study mentioned in the article was done in about 20 countries, and when the results are made public next month or so it will be interesting to compare.

Polls find polls vital! And don't forget that 86.5% of statistics are mad up on the spur of the moment.

"Polls" can say anything and are usually manipulative and meaningless. Direct paper ballots with simply worded up front issues would be better but unless citizens are actually informed about issues, they probably can't make good decisions anyway. Voting Wile Ignorant is a disease with terrible outcomes.

Dana Perino-"You had your input. The American people have input every four years, and that's the way our system is set up."

Can't augue that.

In the words of the leading framer, James Madison. Political power, he explained, must be in the hands of "the wealth of the nation," men who can be trusted to "secure the permanent interests of the country"—the rights of the propertied—and to defend these interests against the "leveling spirit" of the general public. If the public were allowed to participate freely in elections, Madison warned his colleagues, their "leveling spirit" might lead to measures to improve the conditions of those who "labor under all the hardships of life, and secretly sigh for a more equal distribution of its blessings."

Funny how we been educated to believe differently..

"a new poll finds that an overwhelming majority of Americans believe government leaders should pay attention to public opinion polls"

A new poll of Bush and Cheney shows that 100% of lying rat bastard torturing fascists could give a fuck what you think...

an extraordinary 94 percent say that government leaders should pay attention to the views of the public between elections.

Oh really? Only when the throngs sell their Microsoft stock and vote Ralph Nader in the elections will the Imperial Chimps finally retire to their "private islands".

By this time, we've grown used to seeing the middle finger from the Bush administration. What can you expect from unprosecuted war criminals, after all? Cheney was basically telling the reporter, "Go fuck yourself." It was verbal buckshot in the face.

What's really galling, on a little reflection, is the nonresponsiveness - complicity even - of the Democratic Party.

Obama and Clinton both promise to continue the wars. They both supported NAFTA/GATT. They cheered when Israel rolled tanks into the Gaza Strip.

I tell you that you're getting the middle finger from the Democrats too. No, that is not a "one-fingered peace sign" they're extending in your direction.

In a republic, sovereignty resides in the people. In theory. Not the resident, the courts, the legislature or even the constitution itself. The people are the sovereign, and from the people comes all legitimate political power.

lizard -

Having read a lot of your insightful posts, I don't see any big value or vision differences between you and me, in terms of a progressive horizon. But I don't agree with your perceptions on this point about public opinion polling conducted by private interests.

How can you say that the poll questions are not stacked, when most polls are conducted by MSM-linked MSM enterprises, which have, surely by now, shown themselves to be incapable of posing sensible questions to provenly-lying government officials?

And how can you say that these MSM-linked polling enterprises "...come from a government controlled medium"..? Since both you you and I already acknowledge that government regulation of News Media ownership and government guarantees of licensing media in the public-interest, are now laughably corrupt {i.e.: regulated via interests other-than the citizen new consumer} -- how can you make such a statement, unless you mean it ironically?

Granted, most major pollsters, when asking the general, standardized questions of the public, viz: 'Is America on the Right Track,' show overwhelmingly similar results (consistently big majorities say 'No.') And ditto, more recently, big majorities also say 'No' about the Iraq War.

But on more-detailed poll questions about Why the country's on the Wrong Track, major national public opinion poll results provably fluctuate both within and between Pollster sources, based then, tellingly on:

--Who conducts the poll[s] (and with what unannounced and/or hidden interests)
--When the polls are conducted, vis-a-vis revelatory developments in real or fabricated scandals, or vis-a-vis suddenly-new, widely-vetted public information about suspected government intelligence claims or previously publicized official statistics, then proven worng
--Who's answering the polls {and with what scientifically targeted-audience and/or sampling mehods adduced by the pollster?}; and, how objectively the questions asked are being framed [by the interested questioners] within all of these variables?

True, there are some ICC and other government regs that do require that any perfuctorily-licensed national polling ogranization formally state its financial and political affiliations. But none of this minimal formality is adequately publicized or sufficiently understood by the average person who answers such queries, to make on shit of difference by way of reported provisos, qualifying the alleged Objectivity of the polled results.

Hear me, good lizard: I'm not saying that whatever manages to emerge as The Democratic Will from some honestly conducted private polls doesn't have political meaning: I'm saying that, even the poll results you seem to foucs on and politically favor, do not have and can not have any legal meaning in terms of compelling changes in the conduct of elected political officials who're only [consitutionally] answerable to the Popular Ballot, alone.

Moreover, I'm saying: Privately conducted opinion polls, no matter how overwhelming majoritarian or seemingly honest or enlightened, are an inherently unworkable way for a constitutionally self-governing People to instruct their elected officials.

Horizon squinter. you are just wrong. The polls are not fluctuating, they aren't stacked and they come from a government controlled medium. Your argument is just bad. Of course you can't run a government by polls but that isn't the point at all, the point is that the government has contempt for the people. It is very clear, so why are you having trouble with the concept?

Hitler advocated anti-vivisection rights for domestic animals and healthy foods for humans. But a madman's imprimitur appended to good causes doesn't invalidate the good cause.

Just so, Cheney's opposition to formulating government policies based on fluctuating, question-stacked, unofficial opinion polls is a valid position, no matter that Cheney himself is a hypocrite and a moral madman in most other respects.

The electorate's political opinions can only be plenipotentiated at the official election ballot -a venue which itself is now, apparently, officially corrupted in many states.

A brain dead majority of American voters, virtuously but ineffectively goaded-to-correct the mess, by the Left, can not even bring themselves to demand reliable voting techniques and balloting prodeedures from their government. So why in the world should the activist Left now take up the absurd notion that private opinion polls, which are even more corrupted than the official ballot, should guide government behavior?

Opinion polls, most of which are private, MSM-sponsored anyway, are, unlike official ballots, understood to be manipulable, completely unreliable, and in any case not a legal basis for conducting the democratic will of the People to its servants.

The Left dumbly falls into an obvious trap by advocating even a vaguely-official place for any such polls, and its thinkers, however well-meaning or presently flummoxed, should oppose any such idea or temptation.
The fact that madman Cheney, too, happens to pan opinion polls [for, doubtless, wholly different reasons], is utterly irrelevant.

I believe it was Cheney who said that to hold a government position effectively you have to be able to quit whenever you want to. That is, to not depend on the job. Why? So you can do bad things and simply quit if you get caught. 80% of people think their views should be taken into account? so? He doesn't need approval, he has power.

a new poll finds that an overwhelming majority of Americans believe government leaders should pay attention to public opinion polls

I laughed very hard at this comment. It's just so hilarious to think that we'd hear about an opinion poll "finding" that opinion polls are important! and should be listened to! What do you suppose would've happened if the results had been the other way around? Am I the only one who got a good chuckle out of this?

So?

So I think that big-shot politicians like Bush and Cheney should be compelled by law to appear as contestants on Jeopardy. It would be a lot more informative than the phony debates. Jeopardy would reveal just how truly stupid these slobs really are. And when they say something stupid, a buzzer would sound and force them to shut the fuck up.

Hey, Dana Perino:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

"I truely have hope that the american people can throw this yolk of oppression off,"

Yoke of oppression? Have you lost your mind?

When did you recieve your draft notice? When did the government take your car for their use? When did they confiscate your food stocks? When did they require your children to learn a required religion? When did you not get a chance to vote? If you go and complain to your mayor, are you beaten and thrown in jail? Did the American government allow a car full of thugs drive up to you and kill your family in front of your eyes? Can you go wherever you please, move without telling the police?

These are some of the forms of oppression practiced daily in the world and there are many more. So you can be unhappy, you can be dissatisfied, but you are not oppressed in any way.

Lets worry about real problems. Bush and Cheney are yesterday's hash.

This is where Nancy Pelosi shares Cheney's disdain for the people and the Constitution.

Americans, and justice, want the crooks impeached and indicted. Her attitude is... so.

It's about politics before principles and power before people.

You'd think a Democrat by definition would support the will of the people.

There's your dictatorship of Republicans and Republicrats for ya.

The "government" is, in fact, listening to the "polls."

USA/Gallop: 76% of Republicans (approx. 41 million Americans) continue to support Bush;

Roper: 60% of Americans 18-24 (prime soldier age) cannot find Iraq on a map; 83% couldn't find Afghanistan; 75% couldn't find Israel;

The "Saw" torturetainment series has generated over $500 million domestic - which is sort of like a poll.

USA/Gallop: 66% of Americans believe God created everything; 66% believe the Death Penalty and Gambling are "morally acceptable."

It just depends on what polls "we" want our "government" to listen to...

This poll kind of fits into the duh! category IMO, but I guess they had to actually take it to be sure.

Lobo Gris

So?

this is news?

Politicians care about what the public thinks at election time. After that, they only care what the corporate interest is. The 'public' can stick it.

hey, Paranoid Pessimist, I've been calling him doddering too. And Johnny Mac is a great nickname! You're funny.

kathyodat

What - that trust government poll didn't include the answer of "not at all"? I guess everyone who would have so answered weren't included.

Obama is the only candidate inviting public input, but now this poll is out, I'm sure we will be hearing from Hillary that she wants public input. Like, sure she does. About as much as she was under fire in Bosnia. I read that the number of Americans who distrust her has shot up, due to a number of exaggerations and distortions of the truth (lies). Looks like a lot of people ARE paying attention.

kathyodat

I still think there is a strong possibility that the faction that VP Dick represents, and who managed to make do with President Junior as a front man, despite his obvious intellectual deficits, and who are now stuck with the doddering ignoramus Johnny Mac as their front man, will still pull something off to manage to stay in power. If the VP can thumb his nose at democracy on widely watched mainstream TV without consequence, then is it obvious to anyone willing to look at it that our so-called democracy is a sham.

It doesn't have to be. If those of us on the "other" side were to find a way to fight back and communicate more effectively with the folks who aren't on "our" side, the bums could be thrown out. But they have an awful lot of things going for them, not least of which the means to create war crises at opportune times.

correction WTF-didnt even vote for them once, the current admin stole the election twice! first in florida and then in ohio. where are you from? granted many americans did vote for them, but they are nearing retirement now, they had little support from 20 somethings, i'll tell you that much. This next election will be decided by young voters, unless DIEBOLD 'fixes' the election. I truely have hope that the american people can throw this yolk of oppression off, but if Bush has another 'terrorist' attack ala false flag and initiates directive 51, well i'll just say a am going straight to canada, or south america. I have decided to wait to join the armed services until this hiddeous admin is history, as i could not feel honor in swearing allegance to those monsters.

have a great day!!

Many people polled obviously felt that the general public is too ignorant of politics to be trusted. Unfortunately the general public is unaware of just how ignorant their elected officials are.

One other fallacy to mention here. Cheney and Bush are very concerned about polls, but only the surveys that are conducted of their corporate masters on Wall Street.

You voted for them. Twice. And I don't see a siege around the White House. So quit complaining.

HERE'S MY INPUT: I M P E A C H THE VICE-PRES AND PRESIDENT.

Clean out the White House, including Perino, and fire the loudmouths in the mainstream press. Fine those who claim news organization status if they lie!

And while we are at it, give Congressional Medals of Honor for all the whistleblowers during this horrendous administration.

"The American people have input every four years, and that's the way our system is set up."

Ms. Perino obviously did not pass her Political Science class. Clearly she is ignorant of the fact that the people can provide their input anytime they want!

Yeah, dammit... and American public should demand impeachment of certain so-called "leaders" who don't give a flip about what the majority of the American public thinks.

(But they don't seem to be interested in doing this. What the f...?!)

I was surprised to get a letter from Smith Haven Mall in response to my complaint about the arrest of Don Zirkel. The length and complexity of the response letter made me think that many had written. I had asked all my friends here and in Europe to boycott the Simon chain of 350 malls and to click on the mall's customer feedback link. I am sure others did the same thing.

The explanation from the Mall was not satisfactory. Basically it said that Don Zirkel and the protesters did more than wear anti-war t-shirts and disturbed the "pleasant" shopping experience. But they paid attention. I plan to respond asking if they think the dead and and living soldiers and people in Iraq are having a pleasant experience.

Politicians may not listen. One opening for promoting democracy is the power of the consumer $.

By the way - kathyodat - I think you are dreamin' about Obama. But so am I. Hoping he will be buoyed up by pressure from below.