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Winter Soldier 2008: A Marine Mom's Eyewitness Account of the Testimony
I. I have spent the past seven-plus years as an activist against the policies of George W. Bush and his regime. Already, my son has completed 2 tours of duty as a U.S. Marine, first in Afghanistan and then in Iraq. So my life has been forever altered by the events of the past 7 years. Still, when I initially made plans to attend the Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW)'s Winter Soldier event, I intended to cover it from the perspective of an independent journalist.
However, after spending almost four days within the halls of the National Labor College in Silver Spring, Maryland, meeting new members of IVAW, as well as many old friends from Veterans For Peace, Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Military Families Speak Out and other anti-war groups, and listening to the testimony of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans, I realized I can no longer be an objective reporter. So I decided to write this story from the perspective of a Marine mom; one who is adamantly opposed to the so called "war on terror", the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, and any other wars that this government is cooking up.
On Friday, Day 2, testimony began at 9 AM with a panel about the "Rules of Engagement". Speakers from the Army and Marine Corps. -- people that I have known for the last few years -- recounted the atrocities that they not only witnessed but participated in. Anyone who is interested can listen online at www.ivaw.org/wintersoldier. But about halfway into that panel, I lost my objectivity. The stories they were telling about the rules of engagement they learned while training at boot camp, or on a military base "back home", were the same as what I had heard from my son. I broke down sobbing. The photographs they were showing on the five viewing screens of bloodied bodies torn apart by close gunfire, 50-calibre Machine guns, rocket launchers, and every other damn weapon our great military industrial complex has created, were all too familiar to me. When my son returned home from both war zones, he was so eager to share his stories and pictures.
I could not fathom that my son, whom I raised to be a Catholic, whom I took to Sunday school, who received Communion and Confirmation, had not only been a participant in such horrors, but had pictures to prove it. I immediately told him that I would not listen to his stories or look at those pictures. He could speak with his father. My response may seem too many as being hard on my son, who only wanted to unload what he was feeling on his mother. But I couldn't come to terms with it then -- or now.
Watching and listening to the testimony made me very ill. Here were these young men and women, handsomely dressed, some wearing medals, talking about how they shot civilians who were holding nothing more threatening than a cell phone, groceries, a shovel, a white flag, or a pair of binoculars. Anyone deemed suspicious by the particular soldier or Marine on watch was fair game, subject to the orders, "Take 'em out!" The Rules of Engagement, as stated by Garrett Rapenhagen were "a joke and disgrace, and ever changing."
I knew that. I had heard it back home from my son. He told me he had to survive; he had to protect his buddies, so that they could all come home alive. They didn't know who the enemy was, so they would just "blast them away." The Marines are taught that. They shoot and don't even ask questions. Their motto is "Kill 'em all and let God sort them out!"
Camilo Mejia, who is the chair of IVAW, spoke about how soldiers were trained that dehumanizing the enemy is necessary to survival, and how they are taught to think of Iraqis as "hajjis". In fact, all of the panel members said Iraqi citizens were repeatedly referred to as hajjis. I know that word all too well; I have heard my son talk about it, as well as other anti-Iraqi slurs such as "towel head," and "sand nigger." The expression "if you feel threatened, use your weapon" was also a familiar phrase to me. So, too, was the slogan, "Do what you need to do." That meant that you use your rifle anytime, and you can crush whoever you want with your vehicle in the street.
Members on the panel recounted how, when they were bored, they blew up dogs and other animals to keep themselves entertained. All too well I had heard these stories, which gave me the creeps more than anything else. I also heard the testimony of former Cpl. Matt Childers, who said that after American soldiers had already beaten and starved detainees in their custody, one of them removed a hat from one of the detainees' heads and smeared it with his own feces, before feeding it to one of the prisoners who was so hungry that he actually attempted to eat it.
One other Marine, whom I happened to interview personally -- which produced a conversation I hope to describe more fully in a future article -- was Bryan Casler. Casler was part of the initial invasion of Iraq in 2003. He described Marines taking their MRE's (Meals Ready to Eat) which were in plastic bags, and defecating in them before tossing them out to Iraqi children on the side of the road. Those who picked them up would think they were food and attempt to eat the contents. Casler also said soldiers would urinate in bottles and throw them at children. They would also remove the chemical packets that were within the MREs (which helped heat the food) and hand them to children to eat. He said that when they went into Babylon, the marines would drive vehicles into mosques and historic ruins, and break off pieces to take home with them.
Some of the soldiers' testimony was characterized by defiant anger. At the end of his testimony, former Marine Mike Totten ripped up the commendation he had received from General Petraeus, and threw it on the floor in front of him, to a huge applause. One day earlier, former Marine Jon Turner had taken a chest full of medals and thrown them into the audience. "I don't work for you anymore!" Turner said. At the end of his heart-wrenching account of the atrocities he had witnessed or committed, Turner begged the Iraqi people for forgiveness.
All too well I know these stories, and have known them for years. So I kept crying and asking myself how these young men and women wound up in this position. How someone who joined the military out of a sense of "patriotism" wound up doing such horrible and heinous things that would make a mother sick to her stomach. How do we let our children do this? Casler, like my son, joined right out of high school. Many others do the same. And many don't have to be recruited; they join voluntarily, out of a desire to serve their country. Many feel that doing so is what makes heroes.
So I spent three days listening to heart-wrenching, gut-wrenching stories, and continuously asked myself the same question: "Why?" More specifically, why do these soldiers and Marines, who represent a critical new breed of resisters, still feel so tied to the military that many of them espouse some variation of the sentiment, "I am proud of my service in the military. I am not proud of what I did." For someone like me, I can clearly see that statement making sense. But then I had to ask myself why I thought it made sense.
How could you be proud to be in the military, and yet not like what you participated in while in the military? I have often asked my son this question. He says, "I love the Marine Corps. , but hate the government." What a deep statement - one that conjures up very mixed, confusing emotions. So I have to examine not only the statements of love, but of loathing for war. War is a dirty business, forever has been and forever will be. So why do we encourage our citizens to think otherwise?
II. I had to get more to the root of my feelings about these questions. So, after spending time at this event, I went to downtown Washington, D.C. to visit monuments built to honor soldiers who fought in past wars. I had to make sense of how we keep making the same mistakes. We send an entire generation off to a foreign land to kill people. My father fought in WWII, and was in the Battle of Okinawa, where he was severely wounded. He was fortunate to come home and repair physically, but never mentally. He hated the Marine Corps. He never spoke about that war, but I always knew he was angry.
The first memorial I visited was that one, where my father's picture is stored in a digital bank and you can enter the name and information surfaces on a computer screen. There he was, in his Pacific Alphas (green wool uniform ), with all his medals, smiling at the age of 27, when he was first drafted. The roiling emotions took over my entire body. I grew up seeing that photo, and loving my father for what he did to "protect" our freedom. Next to the monument are the infamous words "Freedom isn't Free," carved into the granite wall. My father eventually died from liver failure, which was caused by Hepatitis C, which he contracted on the battlefield through a blood transfusion from a Japanese soldier that they had taken prisoner.
So why do we do this as a country? I walked around to the Korean monument where they had life-size statues of a platoon on patrol, and faces carved into another granite wall hailing the suffering and sacrifice of those soldiers. For what? I asked myself. I saw bus loads of visitors from all over the U.S. taking pictures with the statues, wreaths in the background, and against the granite walls, smiling and awestruck at our "heroes." A guide was repeating that freedom isn't free and how our military is the most honorable and the best in the world. We should be proud of them, the guide said. Small children with their own cameras were taking photos and looking in wonderment at the soldiers standing in formation, their battle- hardened faces carved into metal.
I asked myself why these kids were there. How could this be such an attraction? So this is where it starts, I thought. Taking kids on bus trips to the nation's capitol and looking at war monuments. They are being indoctrinated from the inception of their lives that America is brave and wonderful because of its military.
I started thinking what wars the U.S. had launched against other nations that actually served the interests of humanity. I thought about Hitler's concentration camps in World War II, in which more than 6 million Jews were murdered in the cruelest ways imaginable. The U.S. had helped to liberate the concentration camps, defeat the Nazis, and free Europe from the death grip of a madman. That would seem to be a worthy cause, and an argument why we do need a military.
But was the real motive of the Americans in World War II to stop the genocide against Jewish people? It took this nation awhile to enter that war, and it did so only after the attack on Pearl Harbor, which led to my father-at age 27, the parent of a young son-being drafted. Then we dropped two atomic weapons on innocent Japanese civilians, incinerating hundreds of thousands instantly, and causing still hundreds of thousands more deaths in years to come due to radiation exposure.
Was that heroic? No, it was malicious and vengeful, and meant nothing to the security of our shores. People died at Pearl Harbor, the damage was done, so now it was time to pay back the Japanese one-thousand fold.
III. Our military might equals imperialism. Solidifying the U.S. position atop the imperialist ladder was the real motivation for American entry into World War II, and in fact it has essentially been the motivating factor for every war waged against other countries by this nation's military. So when I asked myself what wars the U.S. had waged against other nations with the genuine motivation of serving humanity, the answer I arrived at is: None.
We train our soldiers and Marines to kill, and to be merciless. They have the best weapons that our money can buy, and are trained to use them on the enemy, whether they are innocent civilians or someone who is actually threatening their lives directly. It is indiscriminate killing at the behest of a government that is seeking to terrify the world into submission to American empire.
Indeed, the history of the U.S. Armed Forces is littered with war crimes in pursuit of a domestic and global "manifest destiny" to achieve greater lands and resources. Keep in mind that the United States as we know it today would not exist were it not for the military's systematic decimation of first Native Americans, and then Mexicans, in the most unspeakable ways imaginable. During the Sand Creek Massacre in 1864, the U.S. Cavalry murdered hundreds of Native Americans -- many of them women and children -- in what is today Colorado.
Or consider a recent article in the New Yorker, entitled, "The Water Cure: Debating Torture and Counterinsurgency - A Century Ago."
After helping free The Philippines from Spanish colonialism, the American conquerors unleashed their wrath on those whom they were supposedly liberating (sound familiar?) As the dawn of the 20th century approached, American troops slaughtered civilians, burned down entire villages, and --yes-- waterboarded prisoners.
In 1950, during the Korean War, American soldiers murdered hundreds of Korean civilians -- again, many of them women and children -- under the bridge at No Gun Ri. The Associated Press won a Pulitzer Prize in 2000 for its series of articles exposing this crime against humanity; the pieces centered on interviews with former U.S. veterans who had carried out the slaughter.
During the Vietnam War, U.S. forces murdered more than one million Indochinese civilians, employing in the process horrific chemical weapons such as napalm and Agent Orange, which burnt the skin of its victims. During the first Winter Soldier hearings, Vietnam Veterans testified about routinely murdering, disemboweling, and raping Vietnamese civilians, throwing bound prisoners out of helicopters to their deaths, and torching villages.
In fact, the final day of Winter Soldier: Iraq and Afghanistan marked the 40th anniversary of one of the most infamous war crimes in U.S. history. On March 16, 1968, U.S. troops entered the village of My Lai and murdered hundreds of men, women, and children -- young and old -- raping some of the women and bayoneting elderly men.
The systematic crimes against humanity that are mentioned above represent only a small percentage of the atrocities committed by U.S. soldiers under the direct leadership of their Commander-in-Chiefs, and they do not even touch on the countless instances of war-crimes-by-proxy carried out throughout the globe by the CIA, and by various puppet regimes installed by the U.S. government.
Without question, the veterans who spoke out against the horrors the U.S. military is inflicting upon the Iraqi people are to be commended for providing tremendously critical exposure at time when the atrocities committed by U.S. soldiers in the Middle East has been rendered "off the table" by the mainstream media and political establishment. These veterans must be praised, as well, for demanding an immediate end to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and occupations; their resistance can play a huge role in bringing these nightmares to an end.
However, denouncing these occupations in isolation from the history of repeated war crimes carried out by the U.S. military no more makes sense than examining one murder committed by a serial killer in isolation from the rest of his murders. In order to both understand, and most powerfully resist, the current manifestations of U.S. war criminality in Iraq and Afghanistan -- and in order to prevent future occurrences of crimes against humanity -- we must realize that the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars are symptomatic of the historic role of the United States military as an institution.
During last weekend's Winter Soldier hearings, soldiers repeatedly testified that the crimes against humanity they described were not isolated incidents; that they were the rule, not the exception, of the U.S. occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.
The further leap these veterans -- and many others within the anti-war movement-- must now make is to recognize that the occupations themselves, taken as whole, are hardly isolated incidents; they, too, represent the rule and not the exception of the U.S. military.
Elaine Brower is a member of Military Families Speak Out and is on the national steering committee of World Can't Wait.



129 Comments so far
Show AllTo elmysterio,
No poop taken. We all do what we feel is right individually. I never said I'm stopping the war and I'm aware of how its being paid for. I've taken a moral position which I believe is backed up by anti-terrorism laws. But as least I know that none of the fruits of God's gifts to me (my income) are being used to pay the interest on the debt for the loans that are used to finance dropping cluster bombs on children, or shooting whole families because they didn't stop fast enough at a check point, or destroying a people's water supply, or torturing or using indiscriminate weapons like white phosphorous, depleted uranium and more pesky cluster bombs, committing war crimes, crimes against humanity, peace and nature. And there's much more as you know.
For Unchained a few posts back, every IRS representative and tax attorney I've spoken to has said no one they know of has ever taken my specific position. This is uncharted territory. The IRS won't recognize ANY law outside the tax code. I sent a long letter, which was posted on Common Dreams some time back (http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/24/5987/), to my Congressman, Brad Sherman, describing in detail my position, citing anti-terrorism laws and asking specific questions about my rights. I never received a response from him but he did forward my letter to the IRS. Thanks a load Brad! I know this because my letter ended up in the hands of the taxpayer advocate I'm working with. If anyone knows of qualified legal council who is interested in my position I could use all the help I can get. Any suggestions Cindy? Any "useful" info can reach me at this name with a 2 after it on gmail.
arpedkedarki
You are off base. One can love their country...and not agree with policies. As David Ware, CNN journalist put it...the soldier is fighting for a policy...he is fighting to get the guy next to him home safely...and to get home safely. When on the lines of combat, policy doesn't enter into it...it is your buddy next to you...the world condenses into survival...
Elaine did nothing wrong with her son...it was the government that went wrong.
I hope there is someone to watch my daughter's back when she is there...though she flies non-combat missions...still....I hope someone is watching her back...and she watching theirs.
When Elaine's son said he loved the Marines...it was the individuals...the mission they are supposed to accomplish...not the one they have been assigned to in an illegal war.
You lack understanding of human nature and survival.
Thank you for your inspiration and hard work Ellen and Cindy.
I just wanted to add to the post below:
Oldsalt3 March 25th, 2008 8:14 pm
For all who want the general public to read about the atrocities to civilians in Iraq I urge all to tell people about the book by Dahr Jamail, an UNembedded reporter, (meaning he's not controlled by the media or by the government) and the book is titled "Beyond the Green Zone".
You can see Dahr speak about his experiences at booktv.org. Just type in the book title. A very well spent hour.
Cindysheehan....
Supporting the troops is somehow being alligned with supporting policy...the Repubs call you un-patriotic if you don't support policy, like somehow you don't care about the troops....they are totally wrong.
The war is an illegal one and the troops shouldn't be there.
It is as I told someone....if the government passes a law that you drive 80 through a school zone and run over children, but that is the law....you are supposed to follow the law....or be penalized...we drivers don't pass the law...but are supposed to follow the law. So....the law is totally wrong, but we have to follow it, nonetheless if we drive.
The fact is, if people don't inlist in the military...a draft will be instituted and people forced to go in...or worse yet....more Blackwater's will be hired to replace the military.
It is a damned if you, damned if you don't situation.
One of my biggest concerns is depleted uranium and the ways in which a person is designated a casualty of war....many more have died there than has been reported because of the way a person must die there to be a casualty. And the idea of colateral damage is ridiculous...colateral damage = dead civilians...why don't they call it what it is.
I saw a report on depleted uranium recently in a Canadian newpaper>>>
U.S. investigative researchers have discovered an official U.S. Department of Veteran Affairs official, but not well publicized count, of 73,846 U.S. soldiers who have perished as an apparent result of Depleted Uranium based bio-chemical warfare exposure. This exceeds an estimate of 58,000 U.S. soldiers who had been killed in relation to the Vietnam War.
Well over 200,000 American soldiers could be killed by 2010, as a result of the after effects of exposure to U.S. dirty bombs.
Over One million U.S. soldiers have apparently been disabled from Depleted Uranium based biochemical exposure. Over one million Iraqis have also been documented to have been killed.
This is what the U.S. ruling elite including U.S. President George W. Bush and U.S. Republican Presidential candidate John McCain calls a "success". How many sons and daughters of the American ruling class have been sent in harms way of the apparent biological warfare that is being perpetrated in Iraq? Not to many, huh? The Iraq War is a class-and-racial-inspired war that is being masqueraded into being about fighting "extremists" and "terrorists". The Iraq War is an extension of brutality by the prevailing elites..."
Ditto to the remark:
Cindy Sheehan, I wish you were running in my district. I and everyone I know would vote for you. Pelosi and all these Congresspeople need a reality check. Thanks to you and also to Elaine Brower
I have to make a comment on the correlation between the war and religion...
There are nuts and pychopaths out there...religion or not...we just happen to have psychopathic politicians using a few of the psychopathic religious right leaders to their advantage.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
2 Pet 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Just because one claims to be a part of religion, does not mean that he is...actions speak louder than words.
On the day that martial law is declared in the US following the next false flag event, how many Winter Soldiers and their still fighting buddies can one expect to stand up for what is right against BushCo and their fellow travelers in and out of uniform?
To fight a war to do anything more than to defend oneself is too often a war based on the lies and personal goals of politicians... take "Saddam's WMD's" and "The Gulf of Tonkin Incident" for two excellent examples.
A man who is said to be our greatest general ever, once said:
"After my experience, I have come to hate war. War settles nothing."
Later he said:
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.
This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron." - Dwight David Eisenhower, 1953
Strangely enough, in his final major speech to the nation in 1961 he clearly warned us against Bush and his cronies:
"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military/industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together." Dwight David Eisenhower, 1961
blucheek...
I feel there will be many, but it will be dangerous time.
People are right now being hired to spy on their neighbors...the FBI enlisted some 30,000, if I am not mistaken...to do just this. Some of the religious right is encouraging people to turn other people in even now...and there is no martial law at this time, that is on the surface, anyway.
It will have to be an underground movement...a very secure one. There are 600 detention centers for people who dare to go against the grain.
Martial law, gun control, security cameras, national ID cards, retinal scans....it will have to be a very organized movement...but there are always those movements.
I agree, there will be a false flag...martial law...and the cessation of elections.
My father was a Winter Soldier of sorts. As a WWII veteran, he would tell me at least once a week that he would cut off both my arms if I ever volunteered or was conscripted to join the military. The worst beating I ever received from him was at age 12, after he caught me collecting spent shells at a rifle range.
Today, I am grateful for the lesson.
My family has been military since pre-Civil War....serving in every war. We had 7 family members in the military during Vietnam....at one time, my husband, uncle, 2 second cousins, brother, and 2 brother-in-laws...all during the Vietnam conflict(another stupid war...with a draft, though no one in my family was drafted, they joined first so as NOT to be drafted and be stuck infantry, but there were 5 pilots out of the 7 that served). My father was Army during Korea. My Grandfater and great-uncle both served in the Pacific...the great uncle being lost at sea after a ship was sunk, and so on and on) My oldest and youngest daughter did or are serving. I have an 18 year old son now...and I am discouraging him from the military with everything in me.
I pray there is no draft.
I admire those in the military who serve with dignity and integrity. I pray for those who struggle within the system of the military. I curse the leaders of this senseless war for killing our young men and all the innocents in a country far from our shores that did nothing to provoke us into invasion and occupation.
Unchained...
You've just about summed it up. I would add the Katrina experience as a full dress rehearsal for what the major cities can expect.
It's time to "follow the gourd" and keep right on going.
I agree, blucheek, Katrina is a prime example. Did you realize that Blackwater showed up there more quickly than the National Guard...and even challenged some of the Guard?
As I said, it is a dangerous time for this country. People better wake up quickly and start getting educated and aware of what is going on...and stop listening to Fox News!
Our government tried to arrest Greg Pallast, the journalist, when he was interviewing and filming some footage at one of the Katrina trailer parks where survivors were housed....officials showed up and told him he had to leave, that it was a "Top Secret" area!!!! Ahem...a trailer park....with civilians....was top secret.
BTW, Greg Pallast wrote "Armed Madhouse"...a great book on the corruption and the Iraq war. Great paper trail. He was the one the justice dept(?) accidentally sent some of the "lost" emails to...like, 500 of them.
As I see it, BushCo has an agenda that's rarely mentioned, even in these circles.
The reasoning might go like this:
"There are 6+ billion people on a planet that can only carry abt. 1 billion. Five out of every six have got to go, now.
If you can't untie the knot, do as Alexander the Great did: cut it."
That's not to say that the 'Leader' ever read about Alexander, but his puppeteers might have.
The next big conflict, past the oil conflict...will be for water. I just read where Canada wants to turn the tap off to the U.S. They send 60% of their water to the U.S.
Check this out:
Herr Bush's Paraguayan Liquid Gold
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/6179
Bush is trying to lock up the water profits, too.
Unchained...
I've come across a blog concerning a movie I'd like to watch soon. There is an excellent trailer and an extensive blog posted by one of the producers.
It's a big subject and there's a lot of reading. Very thoughtful comments follow.
Maybe you're interested?
This is just one of the blog threads. Navigate to the others and the home page for the trailer.
http://www.whatawaytogomovie.com/2007/11/13/build-an-ark-build-it-now/
Yes, some have to go....hence the dirty bomb and collateral damage....genocide being allowed....
They don't mind wiping out our own citizens with depleted uranium....
These weapons have released deadly, carcinogenic and mutagenic, radioactive particles in such abundance that there is no corner of the globe they cannot penetrate -
More than 1,820 tons (3-million, 640 thousand pounds) of radioactive nuclear waste uranium were exploded into Iraq alone in the form of armour piercing rounds and bunker busters, representing the worlds worst man made ecological disaster ever. 64 kg of uranium were used in the Hiroshima bomb. The very broad human and ecological disaster of the Iraq War has been drowned out by America's sound-bite driven media organizations, that are owned by the same fascist clique which presides over the Iraq War.
"The nuclear waste the U.S. has exploded into the Middle East will continue killing for billions of years and could wipe out a third of life on earth.
Winds can and will blow the uranium dust from the U.S. weapons around the world. Gulf War Veterans and civilians who have ingested the uranium will continue to die off from uranium poisoning over a number of decades."
"So far, more than one million people have been slaughtered and four million are homeless as a consequence of the U.S.'s illegal invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. Birth defects are up 600% in Iraq – the same will apply to U.S. Veterans children."
I will check out the site/blog
Thank you
Unchained...
So far, Canada isn't sending a whole lot of water South. However Canada is obliged to send 63% of its oil and 70% of its natural gas production to the US. That is a fixed ratio imposed by NAFTA.
Like an obedient dog, Canada has consistently voted with the US as the only opposition to making water a human right under the UN charter. If water were made a human right, it would become more difficult to corporatize .. errr, privatize access to water. In one South American coutry where this has already been implemented, poor farmers can't even draw water from their own wells without paying some gringo company.
ruthru
"but I ask people who still vote Republican how they rationalize their choice, and I keep hearing the same motivation; that is they sincerely believe that abortion, gay marriage, and illegal immigrants are lethal to a moral society"
I address those people with this:
Pro-life? You call this Pro-life?
It truly amazes me the "pro-life" issue rises up in the vocabulary of the most corrupt administration that has ever held office under the Republican name.
How can anyone tout a "pro-life" stance when they themselves promote illegal wars which "kill and injure" millions of people? Or is life only valuable before birth? The pro-lifers want to protect the unborn, yet finance invasions of countries....bombing of civilians...women and children. Or is life only valuable if you are in America? Over 1 million Iraqi have died, many of them women and children. Our soldiers die in this ill-conceived war...one based on false information spoon fed by the media and current administration. Soldiers continue to die even when back in the US....suicide rates are their highest, illness from depleted uranium, veterans being denied the care they are due, families torn apart by repeated and long deployments, etc, etc......
Our economy is on the brink of disaster. Billions are being spent on this war....while ignoring the basic needs of Americans. Our country goes down the tubes while the corporations prosper at the cost of the middle and lower classes. Food prices, gas prices, health care costs, medicines, heating oil....all skyrocketing. Privatization of public works that the tax payer built and paid for. Jobs falling away to foreign countries. People losing their homes because of corrupt banking and lending practices. Free trade agreements that injure our economy. Voter fraud and scandals. The dollar plummeting in value.
Genocide being the name of the game to thin out the unwanted...Darfur...Palestine...when will it reach inside our own country...oh, yes...we have already done that...with the Native Americans. How many leaders have we sent aid to that committed these crimes against mankind? Who is next? You? Me? They have the holding facilities ready for you...and the private security armies to enforce it. Bush, Cheney, and Halliburton made sure of this.
Pro-life? You call this pro-life?
Pro-life isn't just about unborn babies....it is also about those walking the face of the earth right now. I can't resolve the issue of those screaming pro-life and also being for war, torture, and denial of human rights for the already living. It is hypocritical.
The war on terror?? Keeping America safe by invading and forcing our policies on other countries? Private armies that bully and kill without oversight or law? Suspension of basic rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights?
This isn't about keeping America safe...it is about keeping the corporations and investments safe for the elite. It is about funneling huge amounts of tax-payer dollars to cronies. It is the big payoff and grab for control of every American's pocket book. America's reputation doesn't matter anymore...only the bottom line of profit and control over resources.
Pro-life? Torture? Denial of habeas corpus? Spying on Americans? Squashing the Bill of Rights? Detention facilities? Privatized armies that have no oversight or rules? Investment bankers run rampant without federal regulation or investigation? Presidents and administrations that can blatantly break laws without the blink of an eye or accountability? Consumers being in danger of being poisoned or hurt by sub-standard products or FDA approved products that really don't meet safe standards of testing and use? Loss of homes?
I don't trust Washington or the current leaders. The only choices have been....worse, worse, and worst...the voters speak...and are ignored by the President and Congress like the "We the People" do not exist. If you are not a part of the solution, then you are a part of the problem.
We the people......yeah, right......We the corporations, in order to form a more perfect profit, will hijack and buy/sell the greatest government established in the world, fill it with corruption and greed, deny the people basic human rights and justice, scare the public and disseminate propaganda through the media, and to hell with the.....We the people.
We the People are subject to the corporate take over of our country. The military complex, as Eisenhower warned. Administrations and lobbyist take-over of the government without the best interest of America continue to press the failed policies that have gotten this country into an illegal war, deep trouble and remorse, and are linking us into a dept so deep we will be owned by China.
Pro-life has been become a big issue. The Republican Party is banking on this to draw the evangelicals and religious right into voting for their party merely on this issue. Pro-life is about more than saving unborn babies, which is anti-abortion. Pro-life is about living...about fair laws....about accountability and respect...about honest and decent representation....about human rights and a quality of living...for everyone.
If the trend continues unabated....welcome to the new third world....the USA.
As this new presidential election comes nearer, it is time for every American to look deep into their hearts and find the candidate who is FOR true change in favor of pro-life...for every American that walks the soil in this country. It takes time to research and dig up the information on your candidates, but the time spent can save this country. Who is corporately sponsored, lobbyist sponsored, big business, big profit sponsored? It is all there, those who opt for and support a corporately owned government.
Pro-life is pro-quality of life...not just for the rich or unborn or corporate, but for "We the People",
Killing and war is not pro-life. What ever happened to diplomacy?
I do wonder how decent people raise children that go wrong. A friend of my Dad's had one child commit suicide and one become a born-again Christian.
My Dad, a WW2 veteran, is also very anti-war. I grew up anti-war, but then used to go to see the Blue Angels perform on the fourth of July. I tried once to get my dad to go, and I'll never forget how he refused. He said that no matter how impressive the flying, he knew that the purpose of those jets was to terrorize and kill people. Also, it was a major waste of oil. (This was in the 80s). I quit going.
I raised my children to never even think about joining the military. And college, that's another scam. Two of my children have graduated from college. One is unemployed, and one has three part time low wage jobs. The last child flunked out of college. He scrounges by doing temp work. What is the advantage of going to college? None. That bird has done flown. The idea that going to college will save you from a life of poverty is propaganda put out to make each person feel responsible for their own failure to make a decent living, when the vast majority of us don't make a decent living.
The US is devolving and there is no magic bullet to save us. But participating in the terror and murder that the US military brings to others is a step into evil that no one's child should make. It's not honorable and it shouldn't be supported. That's ruling class propaganda that the left has unfortunately adopted out of solidarity with the poor who choose to join with the oppressor.
So, unchained, how do people respond when you confront them on their "pro-life" positions?
Cause what I get is- fetal life is innocent life. Arabs are all terrorists. It is OK to kill Arab children because they will grow up to be terrorists, and American children won't.
Religious people like this are pig=headed and not responsive to moral conundrums. They truly believe that God is on America's side and that killing is not murder. (That's their interpretation of the commandant, thou shalt not kill. There's a difference between murder and killing.)
You can't reach them with talk of right and wrong, because they believe that Jesus is their personal savior and is intervening with God to get them into heaven.
greenerthanthou,
I think the polls are up to 70% that do not support the war.
As you know, when Cheney was confronted with this figure...he said, quote: "So?"
The neocons and war profiteers do not care what we think.
Until the vast majority hits the streets in protest...and I do mean vast majority...and writes hundreds of letters to their Congressman...refusing to vote for them if this horrible conflict isn't ended....they will go on with business as usual.
It isn't a magic bullet...but "We the People" better speak out while we can.
greenerthanthou
When confronted with those questions....
Each person has to make the fetus decisions for themselves...I myself am pulled both directions on the question. I won't elect an official based on that question.
What good does it do to guarantee being born if you are going to live in poverty, die in war, live under tyranny? That is personal moral question for those who must choose...and those who perform the act.
As to whose side God is on....only God knows that. I don't know of a single individual who has actually talked to God on a face to face basis...people should be more humble than arrogant....the arrogant always think God is on their side.
I refer you to the false prophet post above....are they listening to a false prophet? I feel it very dangerous, religiously speaking, to decide what God thinks and whose side he is on. What an assumption.
People are responsible for living right and honestly...they should not be determining who is evil and who is not unless the actions are expressing such...
We have invaded, occupied, killed and injured, destroyed a country....I am not of the mind this is a righeous and good act....
My argument is always, it is all right to kill millions, but you are concerned with only the unborn? The Christian heart of compassionate and loving...not murderous to multitudes.
Unchained....
"Pro-life? You call this Pro-life?"
Wow! What a speech, delivered with passion! Excellent points and I couldn't agree more.
I'd like to continue the conversation, but it is way - way - past my bedtime.
Remember, always 'follow the gourd'.
greenerthanthou....
You know what? There's no shame in manual labor. Give me an honest, competent, trades person who actually knows how to MAKE things, anytime over some pencil pushing, keyboard punching bean counter.
Show them the photos of the babies born to mothers who were exposed to depleted uranium...and ask them about the rights of the unborn....
Thank you greenerthanthou...
I actually wrote that be published somewhere...chuckles...I am a light-weight published writer.
"Cause what I get is- fetal life is innocent life. Arabs are all terrorists. It is OK to kill Arab children because they will grow up to be terrorists, and American children won't."
To this, I say, they are playing God making the assumption that someone will grow up to be a terrorist. Bush put the Academies of Architects and Engineers on the "terrorist list" when they spoke out about 9/11...hmmm....they are not Arabs. Me thinks anyone who disagrees with the current trend and scare tactics believes all Arabs are terrorists.
If the Iraqi were all terrorists, why did we fund Sadam at one time? Why was Bin Laden funded by the US at one time? Whoever the government wants to beat up on at the moment, is the terrorist....The US thinks nothing of funding dictators and radical leaders if they will go along with our program....usually they get tired of our interference and bullying...then they are terrorists.
"and American children won't"
Bush must have been dropped on his head as child...look what he grew up to do....ahem...
pnolan,
I read your post.
What do our kids know of war and the atrocities? We can teach and speak to them until we are exhausted...but they have not seen the face of war...the media allows little of it. Most kids do not know that many military personnel who can discourage it. We allow them to buy violent video games...well...some do....so war is a video game where they can blast away. Perhaps we desensitize them to a degree with all the shoot em up violence on TV...none of it is real until they meander in one day and join the military....then it gets real.
The recruiters are going to grade schools now(they start early trying to endoctrinate them)....and high schools(at least here in Denver). They have even been caught making false promises to these kids to get them to sign on. At my son's high school, I keep him on alert to find out what is being said by these people. Heaven forbid I find out they are misleading in their presentation of the military and war...I will be on a major tear!
Many kids join up for lack of job opportunity...no where else to go and things seem hopeless for work. The promise of a job, medical care, see the world....and the GI Bill seems like a good contract on the surface.
Bottom line is, we wouldn't be faced with this if our government would wake up and stop trying to conquer the world. They have enough problems within our own borders.
It's nice to read someone who has a realistic grasp of American history. This is a damn rare phenomenon.
Well written and well said.
I am the mother of an Army Capt....three tours in the Middle East, they want her for another one. She went first as an Apache pilot, now as a KingAire pilot.
I am a member of Military Families Speak out and support ceasing this war and bringing our troops home.
I picked this information, below, and suggest that all Americans consider taking to the streets and striking the same day....that means consumers need to strike as well...for this one day.
Peace to all.
________________________________
MAYDAY! US Longshoremen 'Shut Her Down' WW Strike Call, May 1, 2008 -
"No Work, No Peace Holiday"
ILWU calls for worldwide 'No Peace, No Work Holiday' to oppose US wars in
Iraq, Afghanistan
5 March 2008
(Are The People finally starting to realize their last remaining right -
the right to strike? May 1, May Day
W.Coast dockers to stop work May Day to oppose Iraq war
At the International Longshore & Warehouse Union's annual Pacific Coast
Longshore Caucus, an overwhelming majority of delegates voted to stop
work during the day shift on Thursday, May 1, 2008 at every West Coast
port, to express their opposition to the war in Iraq.
Delegates called on unions to mobilize for a "No work, no peace holiday"
on May Day "to demand an immediate end to the war and occupation in Iraq
and Afghanistan and the withdrawal of U.S. troops from the Middle East."
The union issued "an urgent appeal for unity of action to the AFL-CIO and
the Change to Win Coalition…to bring an end to this bloody war once and
for all."
The Longshore Caucus, or convention, was meeting in San Francisco Jan. 28
to Feb. 8, to prepare for bargaining a new contract for ILWU members in
ports up and down the West Coast. The current contract expires on July 1,
2008.
Letter Carriers local plans May Day action in solidarity with the ILWU
The ILWU also urged other unions to participate in similar events on May
1 to bring the Iraq war to an end and bring the troops home safely. In
response, the 2,700-member Letter Carriers Union in San Francisco voted
to observe 2 minutes of silence in all carrier stations at 8:15 a.m. on
May 1st — in honor of International Workers' Day, and in solidarity with
the ILWU stop-work action, "to express our opposition to the war in Iraq.
"
The following resolution was adopted by the ILWU at its Pacific Coast
Longshore Caucus:
ILWU resolution: For Workers' Action to Stop the War
WHEREAS: On May 1, 2003, at the ILWU Convention in San Francisco
resolutions were passed calling for an end to the war and occupation in
Iraq; and
WHEREAS: ILWU took the lead among labor unions in opposing this bloody
war and occupation for imperial domination; and
WHEREAS: Many unions and the overwhelming majority of the American people
now oppose this bipartisan and unjustifiable war in Iraq and Afghanistan
but the two major political parties, Democrats and Republicans continue
to fund the war; and
WHEREAS: Millions worldwide have marched and demonstrated against the
wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but have been unable to stop the wars; and
WHEREAS: ILWU's historic dock actions, 1) like the refusal of Local 10
longshoremen to load bombs for the military dictatorship in Chile in 1978
and military cargo to the Salvadoran military dictatorship in 1981; and
2) the honoring of the Teachers Union antiwar picket May 19, 2007 against
SSA in the port of Oakland — stand as a limited but shining example of
how to oppose these wars; and
WHEREAS: The spread of war in the Middle East is threatened with U.S. air
strikes in Iran or possible military intervention in Syria or the
destabilized Pakistan; therefore be it
RESOLVED: That it is time to take labor's protest to a more powerful
level of struggle by calling on unions and working people in the U.S. and
internationally to mobilize for a "No Peace, No Work Holiday" May 1, 2008
for 8 hours to demand an immediate end to the war and occupation in Iraq
and Afghanistan and the withdrawal of U.S. troops from the Middle East;
and further be it
RESOLVED: That a clarion call from the ILWU be sent with an urgent appeal
for unity of action to the AFL-CIO, the Change to Win Coalition and all
of the international labor organizations to which we are affiliated to
bring an end to this bloody war once and for all. — Adopted by the ILWU
Longshore Caucus, meeting in San Francisco, California, February 8, 2008
San Francisco Letter Carriers on May Day and the War
RESOLVED: That Branch 214 of the National Association of Letter Carriers,
representing 2,700 letter carriers in the San Francisco Bay Area, request
that carriers in all carrier stations observe 2 minutes of silence at
8:15 AM on May Day — May 1st, 2008 — in honor of International Workers
Day and in solidarity with the ILWU longshore workers' action in stopping
work in all West Coast ports for 8 hours on May Day, to express our
opposition to the war in Iraq.
— Adopted by NALC Branch 214, meeting in San Francisco March 5, 2008, by
unanimous vote.
---------------
"ILWU to Shut Down West Coast Ports May 1 (2008) Demanding End to War in
Iraq, Afghanistan"
In a major step for the U.S. labor movement, the International Longshore
and Warehouse Union (ILWU) has announced that it will shut down West
Coast ports on May 1, to demand an immediate end to the war and
occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan and the withdrawal of U.S. troops from
the Middle East. This is the first time in decades that an American union
has decided to undertake industrial action against a U.S. war. The action
announced by the powerful West Coast dock workers union, to stop work to
stop the war, should be taken up by unions and labor organizations
throughout the United States and internationally. And the purpose of such
actions should be not to beg the bourgeois politicians whose hands are
covered with blood, having voted for every war budget for six and a half
years, but a show of strength of the working people who make this country
run, and who can shut it down!
http://neworleans.indymedia.org/news/2008/03/12213.php
Elaine Brower: You write powerfully. Thank You.
My dyslexic 20 yr old tried to join; $20,000 join-up bribes in a no-job economy....and he knew better.
And he wes not raised Catholic. He's just a kid struggling. They promise these kid's all they don't have.
The Lorax; Empathetic post.
Oops! I timed out. Meant to add, any "useful" info can reach me at this name with a 2 after it on gmail.
In the first posting at the top, BigStinky asks the question: "How do we stop this horror...?"
The way we stop it is by encouraging and supporting every one of our returning soldiers to tell their stories when they return home, the way the IVAW are doing in the Winter Soldier hearings. This accomplishes two things:
1. By telling the whole story about what they did and what they witnessed, the whole world will see what war really does to the combatants, the civilians on both sides, and the environment. Don't spare the gory details. Tell it all, with pictures if possible. Get it out there. Remember, it was the TV footage of the Viet Nam war that helped bring about its end. When enough people really understand the true cost of war, it will stop. If they are reminded of it often enough, it will stop forever.
2. The old maxim "confession is good for the soul" has a lot of truth in it. Unloading in a "safe" environment to people who care about them will accelerate the healing process for these soldiers. No one should have to carry that kind of burden alone. And no one should go to the grave holding in the kind of anger Elain's father lived with after WWII, or that leads so many returning soldiers to commit suicide.
These are our children. We have asked them to do unspeakable things. We must care for them and about them.
We must do more to prevent war in the first place.
I commend Elaine for her superbly written and moving commentary, and wish her all the best. I hope that her son's thinking eventually evolves to a point where he accepts the Starr Doctrine-- Edwin, that is:
"WAR! What is it good for?
Ab-so-lute-ly NOTHING!"
PS: Cindy's comments, trenchant and thoughtful as always, complemented Elaine's piece beautifully. ♥
Conservative ideology is a disgrace to God and country. I don't know why anyone is surprised by these sad tales.
The architects of this war are the same people that wanted to spend a day slapping democrats across the face; they wanted to spend a day spitting in democrats' faces.
They actually had a website where licenses could be purchased to hunt and kill liberals, with the money flowing back into the war-chest of the republican party.
People who act this way have no integrity-they have no decency (common or otherwise) they have nothing to recommend them as human beings. They are, simply put, a disgrace-period.
People who will threaten and abuse their fellow countrymen will not hesitate with others. This current republican party is the saddest commentary the United States has ever seen.
That being said-war is never the answer. Not now, and not once in our history as a nation, either. There is nothing in this world that cannot be settled through diplomacy. And there is nothing in this world that shouldn't be settled through diplomacy. War is brutality in a uniform. It is never the answer. Never.
Hetware is correct: until the foundational myth of 9/11 is exposed, all of this parsing of ugliness is sound and fury, signifying nothing. There hasn't been a single war-catalyzing event since the Spanish-American war that hasn't been based on a lie, and that includes the notion that Pearl Harbor was a surprise attack. The nationalism, racism, and end-justifies-the-means attitudes that have been instilled in the military's pawns in each and every conflict depend on the lie of the catalyzing event.
Until the anti-war constituency grasps this once and for all, we will continue to watch history revised as it happens, and continue to plead and play catch-up to the real powers that be. When have marches and protestations and powerful, heart-stopping testimonies such as this ever changed policy? The brainwashed 30% who continue to support such atrocity CAN be reached, but only once they realize that their trust has been betrayed in the most outrageous fashion. Most self-described conservatives I have met who have done a 180 on the war have come to that position upon exposure to the facts -- not theories -- of the false flag event that was 9/11. Anything less will not budge them. And don't kid yourselves -- we need them.
cindysheehan March 25th, 2008 1:53 pm wrote:
"I have a controversial question. I hope this will spark a needed debate here in our country:
Has the anti-war/peace movement gone too far in 'supporting the troops?'"
No. Telling veterans (and their families) that they deserve their world of grief is like telling a battered mother (and her kids) that she shouldn't have married the bum in the first place.
"Have we allowed the right-wingers to control the language on this?"
We can't help it. While we struggle to understand why individuals might enlist in the military and come to do horrible things and while we try to come to terms with what these individuals and their families need from the rest of us to make their way in society when they return, right-wingers see these individuals only as "troops" - nameless, faceless cannon fodder, to be used, abused and discarded. For them, "troops" equals "the glorious exceptional infallible US of A," not actual people.
It's pretty hard for those of us who have a more nuanced, humanist perspective to counter the bludgeoning one-size-fits-all mentality of the right-wingers. We'd have to become more like them, and I am sad to see that some of us are all too ready to oblige.
Another scary aspect of the military enlistment practices, is the fact that they are recruiting gang members and felons.
The Chicago Sun-Times reported that, under pressure to fill the ranks, the Army had been allowing into its ranks increasing numbers of "recruits convicted of misdemeanor crimes, according to experts and military records." In fact, as the military's own data indicated, "the percentage of recruits entering the Army with waivers for misdemeanors and medical problems has more than doubled since 2001."
One beneficiary of the Army's new moral-waiver policies gained a certain prominence this summer. After Steven Green, who served in the 101st Airborne Division, was charged in a rape and quadruple murder in Mahmudiyah, Iraq, it was disclosed that he had been "a high-school dropout from a broken home who enlisted to get some direction in his life, yet was sent home early because of an anti-social personality disorder."
Eli Flyer, a former Pentagon senior military analyst and specialist on the relationship between military recruiting and military misconduct reported that Green had "enlisted with a moral waiver for at least two drug- or alcohol-related offenses. He committed a third alcohol-related offense just before enlistment, which led to jail time, although this offense may not have been known to the Army when he enlisted."
With Green in jail awaiting trial, the Houston Chronicle reported that Army recruiters were trolling around the outskirts of a Dallas-area for ex-convicts.
They were looking for high school graduates with no more than one felony on their record, according to one recruiter.
The Army has even looked behind prison bars for fill-in recruits -- in one reported case, they went to a "youth prison" in Ogden, Utah. Although, one recruit, Steven Price, had asked to see a recruiter while still incarcerated, he was barely 17 when he enlisted and his divorced parents said recruiters used false promises and forged documents to enlist him.
While confusion exists about whether the boy's mother actually signed a parental consent form allowing her son to enlist, his father apparently wasn't even at the signing, but his name is on the form too.
Law enforcement officials report that the military is now allowing more applicants with gang tattoos, because they are under the gun to keep enlistment up. They also note that gang activity maybe rising among soldiers. Newspapers have provided photos of military buildings and equipment in Iraq that were vandalized with graffiti of gangs based in Chicago, Los Angeles and other cities.
The Sun-Times reported that a gang member facing federal charges of murder and robbery enlisted in the Marine Corps while he was free on bond -- and was preparing to ship out to boot camp when Marine officials discovered he was under indictment. While this recruit was eventually booted from the Corps, a Milwaukee police detective and Army veteran, who serves on the federal drug and gang task force that arrested the would-be Marine, noted that other "gang-bangers are going over to Iraq and sending weapons back ... gang members are getting access to military training and weapons.
In 2006, it was reported that an expected transfer of 10,000 to 20,000 troops to Fort Bliss, Texas, caused FBI and local law enforcement to fear a turf war between members of the FolkNation gang ... and a criminal group that is already well-established in the area, Barrio Azteca. The New York Sun wrote that, according to one FBI agent, "FolkNation, which was founded in Chicago and includes several branches using the name Gangster Disciples, has gained a foothold in the Army."
Another type of gang member has also begun to proliferate within the military, evidently thanks to lowered recruitment standards and an increasing tendency of recruiters to look the other way. In July 2006, a study by the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks racist and right-wing militia groups, found that because of pressing manpower concerns, "large numbers of neo-Nazis and skinhead extremists" are now serving in the military. Recruiters are knowingly allowing neo-Nazis and white supremacists to join the armed forces, and commanders don't remove them from the military even after we positively identify them as extremists or gang members.This report by a Defense Department investigator.
The New York Times reported that the neo-Nazi magazine Resistance is actually recruiting for the U.S. military, urging skinheads to join the Army and insist on being assigned to light infantry units. As the magazine explained, "The coming race war and the ethnic cleansing to follow will be very much an infantryman's war. ... It will be house-to-house ... until your town or city is cleared and the alien races are driven into the countryside where they can be hunted down and 'cleansed.' "
Apparently, the recruiting push has worked. Investigators have identified a network of neo-Nazi active-duty Army and Marine personnel spread across five military installations in five states. They're communicating with each other about weapons, about recruiting, about keeping their identities secret, about organizing within the military.
Returning, to read other responses, I noticed this right off "Probably the lowest form of occupation a human being chooses is to be a soldier."
Maybe it shouldn't, but that really pisses me off, and it's what I was worried about. And so it begins. Blame the peons, blame the pawns, blame the parents, blame all our sons. Blame anybody, blame everybody, and forget how much we've allowed our children to fall for worship of brute strength over all else. Yeah. Contemporary lifestyles be damned. Blame the dumb kids that fell for all this crap about Iraq, blame THEM for being too stupid for seeing through propoganda built by the smartest people the world superpower has to offer. Like they weren't the target of all this brainwashing, and are you really sure YOU wouldn't have fallen for it too? I'm not sure I would have. Their parents didn't get it either, but so what. Blame THEM for not seeing the truth...when over 70% of our nation didn't get it until, what, a year ago?
Yeah. Blame them.
Forget standing with them, when the VAST majority return to find themselves awash in confusion and pain, guilt, anger and horror over what they did. Forget supporting them, because it could have been ANY of us, ANY ONE of us that fell for it, in this undereducated, overstimuated, drugged out sleep deprived nation. Yeah. Forget trying for a second to understand how so many of our young men could DO such things. Just blame them. It's easier.
Just like it was easier for the VAST majority of this country and probably THIS audience to sit down and shut up and say NOTHING, at work, at church, with friends. Cowards. Stood by and went with the crowd and LET this war happen. 70% of us let it happen.
So go ahead. Go on with the "Probably the lowest form of occupation a human being chooses is to be a soldier." Because we saw that one coming TOO. Cowards.
Pick on someone that isn't shell-shocked for a change, will ya? God. Grow up.
realdim
I am not sure we are that obliging...we have been deceived and bullied by a president, his admin and an obliging Congress...obliging isn't a term I would use to describe the citizenry...whose voice is not being heard and not given a choice.
Cindy Asked: "How can we expect our young people to resist going to war to be pawns of the evil empire if they know we unconditionally "support" them even if they commit horrific human rights' violations?"
The thing is to let them know that we DON'T support the troops. What really needs to happen, and I do know that it is happening on a small scale, is that the recruiters need to be targeted for the evil swine that they are. Local city councils should make it clear that the recruiters are not welcome in their towns. Local school boards need to make it clear that they are not welcome in their schools, even if it means losing federal funding. That federal money can always be made up elsewhere.
Next it's very important to teach your children to dispel the myth of Manifest Destiny and expose the US government for the corrupt thing that it is. Teach your children that really there is NOTHING honorable about the military... what's honorable about killing people? NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING. So in short DON'T SUPPORT THE TROOPS, DON'T SUPPORT THE GOVERNMENT, DO SUPPORT YOUR CHILDREN.
I haven't read but for the first paragraph of the article, so far, and look forward to finishing this reading. It is surely a good piece.
This post is to provide the following, which I just learned of this morning. It's a documentary video.
"Dispatches: War on Terror
Jon Snow's Hidden Iraq
Broadcast: Tuesday 18 March 2008 11:05 PM
Jon Snow examines the brutal reality of life inside post-invasion Iraq, meeting a variety of its citizens from victims of bomb blasts and war widows to human rights activists and politicians."
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/jon+snows+hidden+iraq/1753147?intcmp=homepage_box3
I got that link from the following video index page in which the perhaps whole documentary is provided in six parts.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=3C0C343002372301
And I could've only provided the youtube link, but wish to emphasise that the channel4.com article is certainly worth reading. That page also provides plenty of links to related channel4 resources that should be of interest.
If I could have high-speed connection, then I'd check out probably all of the related resources the channel4 page links to, but am at turtle-pace 56k dial-up.
whatever4...
I think the question about the majority being opposed to the war and Cheneys answer sums up what the government thinks of that 70%....."So?"
People are going about their daily lives, complaining about the war, but taking no obvious, visible stand....until they hit the streets, write 100s of letters to their elected officials, and really create a stir...nothing will change remotely.
I wish we could get Fallon and C.Powell to head up an anti-war rally!!!
I agree with you Unchained, and thanks for the comment. Gosh, I start out writing a quick response, it gets longer and longer, I think I'm just rambling. Don't get out much. But so many posts are so much longer than mine, it's impressive, I'm small fry.
But yeah, BushCo ignored the will of the people, as policy, making it sound small and unimportant when they did it again and again. Polls? We don't pay attention to polls. And America bought into it. They didn't stop shopping, they didn't boycott the bs msm news, they didn't do a damn thing except laugh at the antics of the extremists. The war-protesting extremists. Laughing at Cindy Sheehan (hope I spelled that right). They didn't even TALK about stopping the war. They didn't want to. I swear, they must have just been bored.
Most people in this country went along with it like sheep. People I RESPECTED, btw, it's been heartbreaking, and after all the arguing, there are many people I will never talk to again. No point, never was. Let them go nuts now, let them figure out whom to blame next, I'm out of it. Many insults, many lies repeated and they can all go to hell; I never friggin wanted to be right about how badly this war has gone. But I was.
Sadder for the fact that, had it gone as they all thought, it would have been bad enough, but that it never stood a chance of going "the way they thought" blew right by them without a notice. Sigh. I swear, I blame everybody I ever knew, in some ways. When I was busy having panic attacks and crying, cussing, attacking, firing at will from my personal front, they were telling me to calm down. You worry too much. Yeah, me the perpetual idiot. Who knew? Oh, anyone that paid attention to what the military experts were saying, while they were being ignored, that's who. Yeah, us ex-military idiots, who knew? I friggin knew. Cause I'm such a genius, right? Shows, right? Sure. It wasn't that difficult. All it took was the idea to CARE to know. Spells apathy. The solution for some, now, is to blame soldiers. And I'm left with gnashing teeth.
All I can say is, but for a decade or so, that could have been ME in Iraq. So soldier haters, well, sorry folks but you can go to hell, because you simply don't get it. You write off the normal human feelings and maturity of young men (and women) without a seconds thought as to HOW they got there, our friends and neighbors everywhere, or why soldiers exist anywhere. Like they made it up themselves.
Writing off all soldiers for being soldiers; that's the broad brush I was talking about. It isn't constructive or even fair. Some people need economic opportunity, some boys played war as children while their parents smiled on, hardly anyone ever told them it might be a serious moral wrong, to go to war and kill other peoples children, whole families, just for being home, in Iraq. It makes no sense to condemn each and every person who decided to give the military a go, we aren't taught to resist peer pressure. Our society gives very little ammo to idea of peace and nonviolence and most parents aren't peaceniks; they're the ones that BUY the video games, LET the recruiters into the high schools and now JR high schools, they support the anti-homosexual Boy Scouts, idolize sports players and on and on.
When I was in, my strongest impression of the military was that it was full of a bunch of do-gooders, straightlaced and all that. I didn't have a problem with them. AND they were integrated, racism did not fly very well. Say what you like about do-gooders, but they aren't a murderous lot. THAT was what the military was about. It was our culture, as I perceived it.
When most people in this country went along with the war(s), I just won't put up with that condemnmation OF soldiers for a second. No. Blaming the suckers is not the solution, it's just a sucker punch to people already down. Kicking people when they're down, it's just not my thing.
I'm conflicted about what the military really is, what it really means, certanily sad about what they're doing now. What sane person wouldn't be? But if the broad brush writes off me and anyone like me, what good is it? I'm one of the few that strongly opposed the war at all stages, partly BECAUSE I was military. Should I never have been, or should I be something else now? Just a whatever, getting more nebulous as time goes on.
Well, I suppose that if you can't find a war that has been worth fighting then maybe you should start to practice you English accent, or maybe your German, or then maybe your Japanese.
War is hell and all of the wars that we have engaged in were not all folly. War 11 liberated an entire continent, Need I even talk about our war with England. All the rest were melishous and wrong headed. Most of which could have been solved with deplomacy.