To all of you bleeding hearts, this discussion is a carryover from yesterday's boycotting of Olympics.

Read the history of Tibet before making judgements -

Friendly Feudalism - the Tibet Myth
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

This will enlighten you as to Who is Who in Tibet and Why.

kelmer,
I hope you are right about China. No country deserves to become a "super power", especially one with such disregard for life.

Kelmer: What a load of racist garbage. No 'Han chinese' is meant to live in the Himalayas? How about white people living in Oklahoma? (Or anywhere west of the Mississippi for that matter?) Doesn't that violate multiple US treaties with Native Americans?
And chinese drinking milk is somehow a sinister plot to make our food prices go up? The whole north Atlantic fishery is fished to the verge of collapse. Is that the chinese's fault too? Chinese didn't invent fishing with dynamite neither.
Also- wearing fur pelts is part of tibetan dress. The Dalai Lama may have gotten PC to appease the Hollywood frou-frous, but that doesn't mean every tibetan has to abandon their traditional dress.

such as the United States.

Larkspur:

You have point on corporate exploitation. Many nations on earth engage in such crimes. Imperialism has been around for centuries. But America's corporate imperialism took off like a rocket after WWII.

My comments were concerning the original opening of "communist" China to corporate "globalization". This was pioneered under Nixon and Kissinger with American corporations then leading the way. Daddy Bush overlooked Tiananmen Square and later Clinton rolled over on human rights in China in exchange for campaign donations...etc. When is the last time you heard anyone in Washington talk about democracy or women's rights in China ?

And your comment about the left being somewhat silent about Tibet is very interesting. If you are old enough to have lived through the decade, during the sixties many "lefties" actually defended China as being a liberated socialist society, which it has never been.

And to set the record straight, the Dalai Lama never had anything to do with the CIA sponsored Tibetan resistance movement in the sixties and early seventies. He actually did everything in his power to persuade the freedom fighters to lay down their arms and to seek other solutions.

I speak with a degree of experience as I met some Khampa (Eastern Tibetans) guerrilla fighters leaving Tibet in the Dolpo district of Nepal in the winter of 1973. I also taught conversational English in Dharamsala.

China may eventually realize it is in their best interest to grant the Tibetans more freedom and respect.

It is time for change. And to encourage more compassion I for one will not buy Chinese products and will not watch or support the Olympics and will try to speak out about corporations that support the Olympics...etc.

Kelmer

I could name more hideous things that you didn't mention, however these are more a reflection of the "traditional" culture than the government.

If the Dalai Lama can do anything of note in this situation, it will be time to nominate him for his second Nobel Peace Prize.

Given the Chinese history of civil rights abuse and the lack of influence that the outside world has on their policies towards most everything, if the Dalai-Lama goes to China, he will most likely be locked up.

What is surprising with all of this is the silence of all us "lefties" out there. For years the Dalai Lama has supported many of our causes, spoke strongly of peace, was a symbol of what so many of us stand for, and yet there are no vigils, no protests, very few articles anywhere supporting him or the Tibetan people. China's actions in all of this is completely contraditory to what so many on the left and on the right believe. Tibet is one area we can all come together and support the people who have been living under oppression for too long.
We speak up for places and issues like Palistine, Iran, Venezuelan, Cuba,and yet we the silence for Tibet is deafening. Perhaps Tibet can be the one cause most of us can come together on (right and left) in America, and help initiate change. It is time for his Holiness to return to a free Tibet.
I wonder if India made him get a green card...

EDWARD1793

you took the words right out of my mouth.........but i differed inasmuch as i said, if he goes, he'll never come back.

Larkspur;

So true. I am in China and look for mention around the world (totally blocked here, of course) and on the 'progressive' sites (or whatever name you want to call them), surely to be found, but no - so little, so, so little. A little, yes, but very little. Amazing. Truly amazing. And sad.

I really feel that if the people of the world, including the people of China, were to stand up to this, support His Holiness, make not only China blink but other state leaders as well. This fire that has started in Tibet can quickly spread everywhere and bring true change for the people, and put a well deserved fear and respect into all leaders. It's not about the economy (as some would say here in the US) it's about the PEOPLE. Today is Good Friday in the Christian faith where Christ rose. Maybe today can be the beginning of freedom rising for the people of Tibet, China, and in all other nations where freedom is lacking.

Whether it is Tiananmen Square or the brutal 50 year occupation of Tibet by China, behind the scenes you will find corporate America and our complicit government. While Chinese soldiers may be doing the killing in these situations, the trigger is pulled in Washington.

In " The Politics of Lying: Government Deception, Secrecy, and Power," by David Wise you find an account of Tibetan resistance fighters being trained in Leadville Colorado as part of the old CIA anti-communist foreign policy. But in the early seventies when American investors set their sights on China, which offered an unlimited pool of cheap labor, Washington reversed it's position on Tibetan freedom.

It has been estimated that over a million Tibetans have died as a result of the long and cruel occupation. The systematic destruction of Tibetan culture has been an obsession of the Chinese for decades. Environmental exploitation and damage have also been pervasive. Yet for some delusional political reason, the Chinese see the cultural autonomy of Tibet as a threat to the legitimacy of China.

Unfortunately, the Chinese ethnocide in Tibet is not only a great hardship for the Tibetans, but is also a great loss to a modern world in need of cultural alternatives to extreme materialism and militarism.

If the Chinese wish to become a respectable civilization in the eyes of the world, it is in their best interest to pursue a more enlightened policy in Tibet.

In the meantime, all of us who live outside of China can express our views by avoiding Chinese products and boycotting the up-coming Olympics in any way possible.

And of course, any corporation sponsoring the Olympics in China will also be participating in the oppression of Tibet and should be seen as having blood on their hands.

Perhaps, and I hope so. However, realize that the people of China have 1. no idea that this is even happening. Absolutely everyone I have talked to here has heard NOTHING of it, save a few foreigners, and, 2. What everyone here has been told for decades is that the Dalai Lama is a crank, a phony, a war-monger, etc, etc, and that Tibet IS part of China. So don't count on too many Chinese people to say much.

Further, as a friend pointed out yesterday, very aptly, there has been no reward or gain to be found here, in the minds of the people, for even taking an interest in such things, only punishment. People would rather just 'not hear or talk about such things'. And that's the triple truth, Ruth.

The only thing I might disagree with JConrad is the American Corporate comment. Really today it's much more World Corporate. Granted most of that is US driven, but if you look at the larger corps today, they go far beyond the US, which to me is a much greater threat.
I think the Chinese people may know more than many of us realize, but just like many of us in the US, we're rapped up on our own little lives too much to care about other issues (e.g., Iraq War).
Again though, what can any of us do about it? It would be excellent if those of us writing these comments actually could think of ideas (no matter how small) that would help in the events that are ongoing even as we write.
So, what do we do?

"If the Chinese wish to become a respectable civilization in the eyes of the world..."

They don't care about this as much as you would think, or as much as they would let on. Most people here view 'Westerners' as naive. The aim is to win, not be considered respectable by others.

whateveryyousay:
I would argue that...you say you're in China, and yes I am assuming you're Chinese. If I'm right in that assumption, I now know of one who doesn't feel that way and sees the bigger picture: you. And I'll further bet there are more of you who have the deep sense of what is right and wrong. The Chinese (as a people) are good and noble. Same can be said about Americans, Brits, French, and everyone else out there.
OK my rose colored glasses are starting to pinch a bit. Time for lunch and a beer.

I wish I understood how the Chinese leaders think about Tibet. Is it simply that they want the region for resources, and crushing a culture is instrumental to having the land? Do they fear Tibetan culture? Are they motivated by some moral view that Buddhism is evil? If you know of any resources that explain the views leaders in Beijing hold, please share.

Thanks,

Kim

Lock up the Dalai Lama and you can pretty much kiss the Beijing Olympics goodbye.

Kim:
To the chinese, it's not about the resources. It's all about national pride. China, like much of the non-western world, lost a lot of territory to the colonial powers in the 19th century. It took many years for China to regain most of this lost territory. Tibet separatism is seen as a US/British plot to pry Tibet from China to weaken China. Just imagine if the chinese start to support Hawaiian independence, Puerto Rico independence, or the Native American movement- what would you think? Of course you would say they must have some ulterior motive for doing so. Same thing with Tibet.

I think JConrad maybe has revealed the main divide.

If the CIA was training Tibet fighters until Nixon changed the policy, I can see why a Holy Man would not want his secret plans out.

Things have changed and maybe if he is able to get beyond the hidden past, both China and Tibet can live together Peacefully.

There is a petition to call on China to show restraint and respect for human rights, and to open a meaningful dialogue with the Dalai Lama.

Just Google: Avaaz petition support dalai lama

Thanks!

Tibet was considered a part of China and was left alone for so long that the world thinks of Tibet as its own entity. Well, China changed that "misconception" didn't they. And don't they continue to show us a most ruthless face? They are burning the dirtiest coal which is exacerbating global warming alarmingly. They don't care, they just want to catch up with and surpass the industrial countries. The spiritual soul of China may be alive in its people, but NOT in its leadership. If I could talk to the Dalai Lama I would say, "please, don't go to Beijing and give them the chance to take you from us. We (this old world) need you desperately to be here with us as long as possible. We love you and I am crying at the thought you could be harmed. If you must go, take a HUGE entourage to surround and protect you at all times. "

Penny,
I guess you could tell the Dalai Lama that China is responsible for Global warming more than the USA, but I don't think he would believe you.

I think he will go and it will be a breakthrough.

I think when he was a boy the CIA was probably controlling him and the Holy Man might be feeling that the time has come for truth.

No way China would keep him.
They are a modern super power now!

Please see this footage of the 'peaceful' tibetan demonstrators:

http://space.tv.cctv.com/act/video.jsp?videoId=VIDE1206024237805558

before you guys hurl all manners of insults at the chinese authorities. This sort of rioting and racist terror will not be tolerated by any country. When France had the riots in Paris, when the US had riots in New Orleans after Katrina, Seatle during WTO or LA after Rodney King, the response was always martial law. This incidence in Tibet is no different. So long as the Dalai Lama does not specifically condemn (instead of excusing it and blaming it on the chinese authority like he has been doing) this sort of violent riots, he has no moral standing with the chinese people.

The barbarians need to treat the Dalai Lama with respect. I hope he doesn't go there.

icemilk, the Tibetans have been oppressed and brutalized for 50 years by the Chinese. They're human beings, and not all of them are nonviolent monks. What do you expect? The Dalai Lama doesn't condone their violence -- or anyone's for that matter.

Larkspur, you write: It would be excellent if those of us writing these comments actually could think of ideas (no matter how small) that would help in the events that are ongoing even as we write.
So, what do we do?

How about this for an idea to get across to our friends in the CCP? Communism and the top down cadre system is not working completely harmoniously with the people in many parts of China. There have been other demonstrations of discontent. Some one else mentioned that this problem is not purely a ethnic and cultural issue but is the boiling over of an economic and political power imbalance too.

The advent off cut and thrust capitalism has created even greater economic dislocations and imbalances between the rich and the poor, urban and rural in China, but all expect to get rich quick, growth rates in the double digits is the norm, but few realy benifit and inflation is high. Can it be sustain? Probably not; certainly not with a long term downturn, if not collapse, of the global financial system, and the US economy, which is likely under the weight of fiat paper, collapsing exchange rates, and burgeoning deficits. So a billion poor Chinese expecting to get rich quick, will in fact be going to get poorer. They've tried the bread and games, but that just raises expectations and highlights the inconguities. They need a movement which harmonises and can accommodate the ideas of a moderated capitalist materialism and modern development with communist mutual social commitment, but does not take power away from the central planning committee of the CCP. How about Buddhism? it could provide an answer to many un-asked but urgent questions. It works in Thailand and it works in Vietnam and Cambodia so why not China?

I wrote this to a friend the other day on just this subject:
The Dalai Lama is getting old, I'm sure he feels his work is not done without some resolution of this problem for his people. My thoughts are with the pain he must feel at seeing their frustration turn to violence. My fervent hope is that Tibet and the spirit of Buddha will fill the void left in the hearts of the Chinese as their egos are seduced with the mindless grasping of materialism. In the 90's it was said that China took over Hong Kong, but in fact it was the raunchy capitalism and materialism of Hong Kong that invaded and captured China. In the sense of the spiritual needs of China, which can only grow with economic changes in that enormous country, perhaps the spirit of the Sanga (Buddha's community) and the Dharma (Buddha's teaching) will take over China too.

"The nature of everything is illusory and ephemeral,
Those with dualistic perception regard suffering as happiness,
Like they who lick the honey from a razor's edge.
How pitiful are they who cling strongly to concrete reality:
Turn your attention within, my heart friends."
NYOSHUL KHEN RINPOCHE

We are now getting to some crucial point in the realization that the financial and economic systems on which our development has been much depend are seriously flawed, mainly because they reflect only that part of our ego that denies the essential "compassion" necessary for society to properly function in mutual respect and cooperation. With the suffering caused by the imbalance of grasping, will come the realization, like bamboo through the concrete, that love and compassion are the only true healers.

So my real hope is that the 1.3 billion Chinese might find the logic and simple reason to celebrate the funeral of this 14th Dalai Lama in Lhasa, Tibet, his home, but before then treat him and all the people of Tibet with the respect they deserve.

This is, in my opinion, an idea that may answer several solvable problems wrapped in one.

Oh come on.
China took a child who was chosen as a new Lama by Tibetan buddhists and locked him up. They brought forward their own choice.

They interfere directly in Tibetan culture and religion. Anyone who has met the Dalai Lama knows the guy isnt a terrorist.
Its just the perversion of Chinese secularism that makes them so deluded. Although from what i have read of Confucius it is a very shallow, unreflective, and selfish philosophy.

They introduced fishing with dynamite to Tibet.
When the Dalai lama spoke out against killing wildlife for fur--China forced its Tibetan newscasters to wear fur on air.

Han Chinese arent meant to live in the Himalayas, but China is too stupid/human to figure it out.

You can knock Tibetans for this and that-but I am pretty sure they never had foot binding(is the smell of broken bones and rotting flesh really a turn on for chinese men??) and I dont think they dumped unwanted girls in orphanages or stuck them in a back room to starve.

China is a disaster. It has destroyed its environment--they have a town where coal dust is so bad they have to clear it away at noon and its back there by 3 pm.

Perhaps a problem is that they have no food taboos--they believe in eating anything--so even anti freeze is palatable.

China has faced terrible treatment--especially from japan, but that doesnt let it off the hook for its own depravity.

Its treatment of Tibet is appalling, as well as it treats its own citizens. But they dont seem to protest quite so much.

Having 1.3 billion people pushing for a modern technological society while remaining so ignorant or indifferent to the abuses of authority is truly a nightmare for the future.
The West isnt a saint but at least there is some ability to change things. In China I dont see it.

I mean--they decide to drink milk and the price of food goes up.
They want shark fins as soup decorations to impress their friends and sharks face extinction.
Elephants getting slaughtered to sell ivory to China.

China = disaster.
It wont become a super power--it will burn itself out from its corruption, population and environmental problems.

I agree, Kelmer's remarks were pretty racist. So, the yellow, look-alike hordes aren't entitled to drink milk or eat seafood soup?

Perhaps you did not know that all foreign journalists are being barred or expelled from Tibetan areas. Thousands of Chinese troops are inundating Tibet as China crushes the demonstrations going on in Tibet to make sure no outsiders can see.

You can speak up now to urge the Beijing 2008 Olympic Organizing Committee and the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs to obey their own laws and allow foreign journalists access to Tibet. Click here to add your name to those of us who are taking at least this action:
http://actionnetwork.org/campaign/media_freedom

Kicking out journalists reduces the information the rest of the world gets about what is really happening in Tibet, but it also removes independent witnesses, thereby giving a soldier or police officer one less reason not to use violence to suppress the protests. Tibetans know this, and are afraid: as one Tibetan in Lhasa told the BBC, "We are all very worried about the lack of western people and journalists in and around Lhasa."

The obstruction of journalists also defies new regulations passed in 2006 that were supposed to give foreign journalists expanded freedoms in the run-up to and during the 2008 Olympics in Beijing.

If you want to help the Dalai Lama do it in ways that might wake up the world.

To Larkspur above: I have an autobiography by the Dalai Lama. He wrote it not long after his first exile, fleeing from the Chinese barbarians. His advisors were intent on asking America for help. The young teenage leader said no to that. I paraphrase his words "Americans will not endure for very long seeing their soldiers die for a small unknown country on the other half of the world." A huge intelligence lives in him.

DeLACrews,

I read the Michael Parenti article you posted. Here is a rebuttal, "A Lie Repeated: The Far Left's Flawed History of Tibet"

http://studentsforafreetibet.org/article.php?id=425

Kim

icemilkcoffee,

Thanks for the link! No doubt about the violence shown in that footage. It does not show who threw the first punch, but that hardly matters at this point. What matters is how to move toward peace.

I agree that a ruling power's response to violence - whatever motivates it - will be to crack down and squash it. But I have never heard the Dalai Lama advocate anything but non-violence. He repeats his message of non-violence routinely.

Yet the Chinese Premier, Wen JiaBao states "he was ready to meet the Dalai Lama if he renounced violence." How can the Chinese people even know what is going on? The Dalai Lama does not advocate violence, and he does advise his people accordingly. But the Chinese distort this message - do they not?

So younger Tibetans, who mostly have not had the chance to see and be directly influenced by the Dalai Lama, are growing impatient with non-violence. They want results. Are not the Chinese shooting themselves in the foot here?

icemilkcoffee, do you think the Tibetans are treated well in Tibet? What steps can you envision to bring about a transition to peace for this violent situation?

Kim

The present Dalai Lama is one really impressive man. At 73, let him go to Beijing. He can handle it, even if it means the end of his days on earth; he knows what he is doing. While I do not believe the physical reincarnation of the Bhudda bit (and I suspect he doesn't either), he is a very worthy corporeal successor. (He puts the best Popes way back in second or further place.)

As to Han Chinese belonging in Tibet: the altitude of much of Tibet is >4 Km. About 1/2 the air at sea level; the Tibetans were bred (by circumstance, not intention) to survive there.

Bush's hyposcrisy knows no bounds. He wouldn't even talk to the Cuban government, but he will gleefully swagger off the plane in Beijing and pump hundreds of thousands of dollars into their economy staying in their hotels, eating their toxin-laced food, breathing their carcinogenic air and placing the American imprimatur on the butchers who execute dozens of people daily, mostly for political offenses. Birds of a feather flock together, I suppose.

Kimbal; This relatively recent quote may give you an idea about Beijing's feelings regarding Tibet.

"The Communist Party is like the parent to the people of Tibet ... The Central Party Committee is the real Buddha for Tibetans."

Zhang Qingli 张庆黎 Communist Party Chief for Tibet

Larkspur;

No, I am not Chinese. I have lived in China for the better part of ten years. I have traveled from north to south, east to west, by air, train, bus, van, car, state utility truck, motorcycle, and hitchhiking. I have been employed by both the government and private businesses. I have lived in the largest cities and the smallest towns, places where I was the first foreigner people had ever seen. Walking down the street, people would, upon glancing up and seeing me, take a large gasp and practically jump a step. Employees would crowd the front window of shops as I passed, to watch. My daughter is half Chinese and her first language is Chinese. I say this, just to give you an idea of my experience here, and the comments I have made are a combination of what I have seen and experienced, combined with what I have been told by family in China and literally hundreds of Chinese people over the years.

Hope you had a good beer and sandwich :-)

To the Tibet detractors;

I personally know more than one Tibetan 'Living Buddha'. I have travelled and stayed in the region, in yurts, private homes, and even in the same quarters with one Living Buddha, who is my close friend, and with whom I have traveled and spent much time. He calls me on the phone regularly. I have stayed in Lama's and Living Buddha's personal rooms at more than one monastery high in the mountains.

First hand accounts tell that the rioting began AFTER Tibetan people saw Chinese troops beating monks. I had close friends (European and American)in Lhasa when this all began. The internet in China has been heavily monitored lately, many sites shut down, including youtube. Why would someone shut down youtube if videos would show the Tibetans as being the problem, which would only help the government's cause? My email has not worked properly, or at all, for a week now. Perhaps my computer is being monitored in 'real time' now.

icemilkcoffee;

kelmer said the Chinese "introduced" dynamite fishing to Tibet, not that they "invented" it. He also said that Tibetans didn't want hunting for economic gain to continue, not that they didn't wear fur personally. There is a HUGE difference.

gde;

The "reincarnation of the Buddha bit" is most certainly accurate. Before a 'Living Buddha' passes from the present incarnation, they tell where and when they will return. Some years later, a group of Lamas, go to seek him out, when he is at the age of 5 or so. They then put him through a series of tests/questions that ONLY he could know.

" Kimbal March 21st, 2008 6:11 pm

DeLACrews,

I read the Michael Parenti article you posted. Here is a rebuttal, "A Lie Repeated: The Far Left's Flawed History of Tibet"

http://studentsforafreetibet.org/article.php?id=425

Kim"

I POSTED links to two articles on Tibet yesterday and one is by Michael Parenti, while the other is by T. Fletcher, two authors I'm not familiar with; though have read one or two articles by Parenti over the past few years or so, so his name wasn't new to me when globalresearch.ca posted his article this week. It's all I can say on or about him, which is like ... nothing. The article certainly does present very interesting history, but I am certainly not qualified to be able to say whether what he says is true or not.

BUT, both, Fletcher anyway, speak of both the CIA and U.S. NED, National Endowment for Democracy, being [very] involved in Tibet, as it also is in other parts of the world, including plentifully (not in the good sense) in Venezuelan politics and society. This [immediately] should raise ALARMS; very serious ones. These organisations do NOT ever work for any [good]; they work for western imperialism, its real rulers and profiteers.

One way they do that is by working on weakening other govts that have some or much considerable strength, and there's plenty that's been written about the USA having been on a project against both Russia and China ever since the USA became the world's military superpower with WWII.

There is MUCH to be concerned about when Tibet is working with the most hellishly rogue govt in the world, that of the USA. And this is what Bush's friend the Dalai Lama's been doing and will surely continue to do; disregarding that this should be quite immediately damaging to his and Tibetans' credibility.

It's not to say that the govt of China, the People's Republic of China, PRC, doesn't commit any serious human rights abuses; it does. Otoh, some human rights problems in China evidently are NOT due to the govt, but to the govt's inability to provide police security for the [whole] and large country; a fact that organised crime groups in China take advantage of, and brutally or hellishly so.

Anyway, the link to my post of yesterday is the following.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/19/7779/#comment-233369

As for the article Kim provided a link for, it's entitled as follows, along with the name of the author.

"A Lie Repeated - The Far Left's Flawed History of Tibet"
by Joshua Michael Schrei

That piece oddly is not dated, and the most recent year mentioned in the article is 2001, so it's not particularly current in terms of dating; but then conditions may be such that nothing has changed there, meaning to the point that it would mean that Schrei's article is really outdated. Otoh, not dating articles is a way that can be used to deceive readers, too. But perhaps it's a wholly valid article; it'll just take [real] experts to shed light on all of this.

John Pilger would be great to read on Tibet, if he's done anything on this topic.

Quoting from Schrei's article:

"...

The Tibet issue is one that the far left has found to be somewhat of a conundrum, for the simple reason that most other popular human rights struggles can be easily linked to a larger struggle against U.S. or European imperialism. Therefore these struggles - be it in Palestine, or East Timor, or Colombia, fit nicely into the larger - and often rather myopic - worldview of the leftist."

IT'S MYOPIC to well realise that the U.S. is the world's most extreme and hellish rogue state in the world; that it's often covertly operating around the world, with the instruments known as the CIA (the operations branch), the N.E.D., the USAID, among other elements or actors; that the U.S. murdered many millions of southeast Asians with the wars on Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos; that it's due to the U.S. and western imperialism that farmers of their conquered South Korea are very [plighted] today and all for the sake of western capitalism 'run amok'; that the U.S. is the biggest criminal against many enough South American and African countries and therefore peoples; etc.? That's being myopic, as well as realising that these are all crimes of aggression being myopic?

Schrei's either unable to express what he wishes to express in intelligent terms, or else really deserves NO credit whatsoever.

Quoting a little more from his piece:

"However, Tibet is a case in which the struggle for basic rights and nationhood is being carried out against a communist government, so it has brought with it a host of questions for the leftist, who naturally leans towards socialism or communism as an ideological example of a system that stands in contrast to the 'imperialist west'."

I AGREE that those are good systems in terms of what they are really supposed to be; but that's very different from how they are really implemented, and the implementations are poorly to very badly done, as well as very corrupted, criminally so too. I don't have a problem with capitalism as long as it's not the extremist, 'run amok', terrorising, totalitarian, hellbent kind that we have in the USA, and which Canada's sometimes provides even worse examples of; f.e., being able to purchase three pairs of pants in the U.S. for the price of one pair here, but without paying any sales tax on top in the U.S. and paying around 15% on top in Ca. Similarly for purchasing automobiles, as well as plenty of organic food and organically constituted products, such as excellent soap made by some business in Maine, paying over 3x more here for that same soap, f.e.

No, I'm a neither leftist nor rightist, except when rightist is meant in the sense of correcting wrongs, working to make conditions right, instead of wrong, unjust. And this fellow never forgets the critical meaning of the words of Jesus of Nazareth when he said, "ALL HUMAN INSTITUTIONS WILL FAIL". ALL HAVE, and given that this is actually fact, can't be proven to be mistaken judgement, we can deduce that all will continue to fail; the failures varying only in terms of degree and manner, so gravity of impact. And the larger an institution is, the more likely it will fail; it's much easier to manage a small "operation" than it is to manage a largely scoped one.

True, pure communism is very good. Plenty of nuns live this way, though their organisations also consist of failures; including abusive kinds. North American Indians lived according to a communal sort of paradigm, and they did very well, thank you, until western imperialists launched the greed projects and narcissistic egotism here. But institutionalised communism has become corrupted; yet not really worse than what applies for imperialist-democracy.

What particularly makes me nauseous as well as laugh is Tibetans calling on western imperialism for assistance in establishing democracy and national sovereignty in Tibet when we don't even have it here, except in EMPTY labeling. Western imperialism is [enemy] of democracy; the U.S. and its allies have been proving this to be FACT for a long time already.

That lack of intelligence and moral integrity on the part of the Tibetans kills their credibility as far as I'm concerned. Why don't they first start by working to help us to establish constitutionally and democratically abiding govts here, before trying to use our hellishly rogue govts for struggling against China's communism? Because they lack both real, noteworthy intelligence and moral integrity; they're utopists, aiming for us to help them achieve what we ourselves don't have, except on paper, EMPTY labeling.

Is that what they want, EMPTY democracy, and really fascism and corporatism? If so, then be honest about it and I'll be glad to give a hand for them to get the hellbent corruption we have for govts; and then I'll sit back with some good smoke and microbrew, and LMAO.

'Students for a Free Tibet' very much is the sort of organisation the NED and CIA covertly employ as fronts, BTW.

Larkspur: what can any of us do about it?

The Chinese government is starting to resemble the US government in too many ways. Both keep their populations in the dark, both spout lies about foreign "enemies", both are entrenched in extremist petro-capitalism, both seek a similar kind of prestige by similar methods. And so what we can do about it is the same thing we're already doing, at least many of us progressives are shifting in our exchange/association away from the capitalists, and toward our local communities. And localism happens to work on the Chinese capitalists same as it works on the US capitalists. This is probably a very good thing. Now of course there are other capitalist states. Which ones are being responsible and which are not?

Also, we have the following FACTS:

*) The US govt and its real, but hidden ruling elites are the greatest enemies of [democracy] that exist. Russia and China definitely do not care if other countries have, instead of govts identified as communist, democracies; it's not a concern of either of these countries or govts.

*) The USA has covertly and overtly worked to crush democracies and otherwise good govts in countries with good govts; a fact proven again and again, plenty of times.

*) The USA, Canada, and France committed an act-of-war coup d'etat to overthrow the very good and strongly democratically elected govt of Haiti and still refuse to restore President Jean-Bertrand Aristide to the presidency of Haiti. Instead, they forcefully removed him (and entirely from the whole country), and installed extremely violent criminals his govt has justly and necessarily incarcerated; criminals so grave that they should have never been released and should be in prison for the rest of their earthly lives.

*) The US, along with NED and CIA, relentlessly operate to try to destroy the strongly democratically elected govt of Venezuela; and has done and aims to do the same thing in other South American countries, while strongly backing the hellish Colombian govt, a genocidal beast of hellish making.

*) The US govt works to profit corporations by helping them to offshore millions of U.S. jobs so that these corporations can expand their empires and extremely exploit extremely cheap labour, workers who are additionally abused both psychologically and physically.

*) The US govt wars for NO justifiable reasons, but for NATURAL RESOURCES, and for working to expand empire.

*) The US govt, as well as that of Canada, persist in refusing to respect the human rights and dignity, and sovereignties of the indigenous peoples of North America.

*) AND ETCETERA, ETCETERA, ETCETARA.

'Students for a Free Tibet' therefore and strongly appears to be just another NED and/or CIA front organisation; regardless of whether or not the students involved are aware of this. Maybe they've all been informed, but perhaps none have been, or only a few of the student leaders have; but whichever is the case, this student organisation strongly appears to be "just" another NED and/or CIA front group. It has either all or else many, certainly enough anyway, of the traits needed for this above perception.

And I haven't mentioned relevant facts based on matters on the continent of Africa; many facts that, when we know of them, tell us a lot more about evils of the west's imperialism.

Of course one has to be NON-MYOPIC to understand this, and Schrei has a lot of work to do before being able to be persuasive with me; Schrei and likes, that is.

Schrei is the example of myopism, totally, very nearly totally anyway, disregarding the BIG and FULL PICTURE.

NOPE, if the Tibetans have any moral integrity worthy of note, then they will NOT be asking the US govt for help.

But, ooops, and for just yet another relevant fact, lookie see what US govt FIEND just went to Tibet; the wicked, fiend NANCY PELOSI.

"US lawmaker demands Tibet inquiry

...PIC.
Nancy Pelosi meets the Dalai Lama
Ms Pelosi - a fierce critic of Beijing - heads a congressional delegation

Nancy Pelosi

A senior US lawmaker, Nancy Pelosi, has called for an independent investigation into China's claims that the Dalai Lama instigated the violence in Tibet"
March 21, 2008,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7308169.stm

Now, let's lookie a little more closie, at what's quoted of her words.

QUOTE:

...

Speaking in Dharamsala, seat of Tibet's government-in-exile, Ms Pelosi said: "We call upon the international community to have an independent outside investigation on accusations made by the Chinese government that His Holiness [the Dalai Lama] was the instigator of violence in Tibet."

Chinese police set up a road block near Linxia, Gansu province, on 19 March 2008
Chinese police and troops have converged on restive areas
She added: "The situation in Tibet is a challenge to the conscience of the world.

"If freedom-loving people throughout the world do not speak out against China and the Chinese in Tibet, we have lost all moral authority to speak out on human rights."

...

END QUOTE.

PURE HYPOCRISY and fiendery, is she about; evidently wholly so.

Mike Corbeil;

You make a lot of 'stretches' in drawing what you offer as 'conclusions' via associations. You are 'finding' implications that are not concrete, similar to those who would say, for example, that Obama's wife hates America, or isn't proud of America. Spin.

You say, "..lack of intelligence and moral integrity on the part of the Tibetans.."

How much time have you spent in Tibet? How many Tibetans do you know?
You sound pretty racist, with that kind of remark.

There is NOT an OUNCE of moral integrity in Pelosi; NONE!

She's not left, not right, not center; she's wholly and extremely hypocrite, point final. She [is] WAR CRIMINAL, besides being criminal and enemy of true democracy in other terms (than war). It's aka evil fiendery.

Satan too is described as a "being of light" and to make all sorts of dandy promises, such as about bring peace, democracy, ya know, like Bush et al speak; regularly. And Pelosi is NO better; not to any noteworthy or worthwhile extent anyway.

I bet'ya Schrei just loves her, and her kind, though; "sons (and daughters) of NOT God, but of the father of lies, ...".

See Reverend Jeremiah Wright, f.e.; he sure does have a way with describing reality in truthful terms. Man of passion and compassion, he is.

The Dalai Lama will not need to pack his bags for that trip to Beijing. If he were met with openly the Chinese would be confirming his authority in Tibet. They will do this the day before Bu$h the inferior admits his mistakes as president but no sooner.

http://88.80.13.160/leak/tibet-protest-photos/index.html

The 'Monks' came to my town again, made 35k, got free this and that....

I care not for PC; they struck me as fatuous and insipid; they reminded me of catholic priests.

And I do know a bit of the hisory. eff the cia. I'm sick of seeing Free Tibet bumper sitckers on expensive cars owned by yuppies who are part of the problem; screw religion. if you see a bhudda in the road, kill it.

mikepeters,

What is the problem as you see it - that the yuppies with Free Tibet bumper stickers - are part of?

Kim

I read a wonderful book by Ani Pachen, a Tibetan nun, called "Sorrow Mountain," that recounted her experience of the Chinese invasion of Tibet and the 21 years she spent in a Chinese prison. Ani attributes her survival to her desire to see the Dalai Lama just once before her death, and the harrowing account of her imprisonment, eventual escape and impossible trek across the mountains to India culminates in the joyous moment when she finally meets His Holiness. For me, one of the most memorable passages in the book was her description of the early months after the invasion. Ani said that, while in hiding to avoid Chinese troops, the Tibetan villagers would hear the sound of airplanes in the distance and they would get all excited and happy, convinced that it was the Americans coming to save them. It broke my heart, picturing their hopeful eyes searching the sky for a glimpse of the American rescuers that would never come. The Tibetan culture has been decimated, and for 50 years we have done nothing to stop it. If only Tibet sat upon a big reserve of oil, perhaps we would have a reason to care.

Here's a link to the book, for those interested: http://www.amazon.com/Sorrow-Mountain-Journey-Tibetan-Warrior/dp/1568363230/ref=pd_sim_b_title_1

I would hope that all who support Tibetan freedom will contact their representatives, and would boycott both the Beijing Olympics, the television station that airs it and the companies who sponsor it.

Mike Corbeil,

Thanks again Mike. I also read the article Kim suggested and immediately noticed that it was not dated.

I started to respond, however I decided it was a waste of time.
People must obtain first-hand knowledge before commenting.

A lttle food for thought:

Doesn't it seem odd, that of all the posts on the subject of Tibet and China, there are no Asian posters? It cannot be fear of reprisals, but the culture. This lack of concern is prevalent in mainland China and Tibet. I witnessed this on many occasions when I lived (immersed) in China.