g l tirebiter....thank you thank you thank you...i just had a great laugh! holy macaca batman! god we take ourselves so seriously don't we? do some death meditations...makes the ride all the more enjoyable! its only life on little planet earth. go have a glass of wine and head over to your city council meeting. be nice to someone you don't know and love your neighbors....oh and read the harpers article....

i once shook billary's hand in a parade her face brought one thought to my mind....FEAR. not mine, hers.

The Harper's piece was written by Jeff Sharlet -- the same guy who wrote the Mother Jones article which was the basis for the Ehrenreich piece published here.

Why read the same tabloid claims twice? If you want to know more about The Fellowship, seek some independent sources.

See my March 22nd, 2008 12:55pm post.

dear everyone who is regarding this as an issue of religion -

please reference the harper's article linked above - and then try to recall just who edwin meese was... and for the love of god, imagine a "prayer breakfast" attended by a neocon...

"dear jesus,

please guide me in the slaughter of children...."

Oh, crap, what a monstrosity. I knew the Clintons were closet repugs but this really puts it in perspective.

It's no secret that Hillary Clinton is a Republican-leaning Democrat — "Republican-lite," as they say. Ehrenreich's article — which is a twisted, exaggerated version of the article published by Mother Jones last September — doesn't do much to illuminate that fact.

(The underlying Mother Jones article, by the way, is a twisted, exaggerated version of the truth. So, we're getting a double whammy from Ehrenreich. For the facts, minus the National Enquirer-style hyperbole, see Wikipedia for: "The Family (Christian political organization)" and "Senate career of Hillary Rodham Clinton").

The Mother Jones article, in summary, tells us that:

(1) Hillary Clinton is a life-long, committed Christian who regularly prays for guidance and salvation. She's not a fake Christian who only attends church for political purposes.

(2) She attends the weekly Senate Prayer Breakfast — which 40 of the 100 Senators (including right-wing Republicans) regularly attend, and the annual National Prayer Breakfast — which the President and 3,500 other guests regularly attend, and previously as First Lady she participated in a prayer group (which included the wives of right-wing Republican congressmen).

(3) Both her prayer group and the National Prayer Breakfast are organized by a conservative Christian group known as The Fellowship (or The Family), whose "ideas are essentially a blend of Calvinism and Norman Vincent Peale, the 1960s preacher of positive thinking" (Mother Jones).

(4) Her participation in these Christian activities, while genuine, has also allowed her to forge relationships with Republicans based on shared faith and values that transcend partisan politics.

Now, for myself, I don't put much stock in religion. If I did, I would certainly prefer a more traditional, Christian-charity focus, over a personal-salvation focus like that of The Fellowship.

But, here's the irony. When Barack Obama tells us he is a great "uniter" who transcends politics, emphasizes shared values, and can work "across the isle" with both Democrats and Republicans to "get things done," he's hailed as a wonderful leader. By comparison, these same Obamaholics tell us, Hillary is far too divisive and the Republicans hate her. Now, along comes this Mother Jones article telling how Hillary has been quietly transcending politics and forging relationships based on shared values for years . . . and the Obamaholics excoriate her in the most hateful terms for it.

For those who claim that collaborating with Republicans and compromising Progressive values is a bad thing, I agree. (It's a shame that every person of conscience doesn't support and vote for Ralph Nader — if we did, he'd be elected.) But, the truth is that both Hillary and Obama are Republican-lite Democrats. Claiming that Obama's Republican-lite agenda is an asset while Hillary's Republican-lite agenda is a detriment is both foolish and hypocritical.

As to the question — which I find most important — of who is more Republican, Clinton or Obama, I've answered that in these forums before. Obama is much more Republican than Hillary (based on their voting records in the Senate). See:

CANDIDATES' VOTING RECORDS COMPARED
Bob K. March 4th, 2008 2:10pm
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/04/7465/

~FORMERNADERVOTER~ Excellent points. I thought however that Obama's speech was the best I have ever heard or seen anyone deliver. Truly a great speech. If Obama is as good a man as he portrayed himself to be in that speech, he is a true statesman and perhaps the best person we have ever had seeking the presidency. I hope he is that good, for it appears at this time he will be our next president. __ Hope is often fleeting.

Like you, I have a problem with his speeches, as his votes as a US Senator do not agree with his words and his well delivered campaign speeches. Of course many of the "prgressives" here disagree with that comment and will deny it is so. Many also will attack anyone who have the audacity to suggest that Obama in not a saint or a saviour, with incredibally nasty comments, such as. "Kem, why do you hate all black people?" Hard to unerstand and or believe or even reply too.

Unfortunantly, many who blog here frequently, don't know what progressive means and or, don't bother to actuallly search out any person's voting record that they have already deemed to be the very best.

There are few true progressives posting comments here. What we have are a lot of self centered political "experts" who do not wish to know the truth. For example, some of the enviromental issues, such as global warming and climate change are totally ignored by these so called progressives, issues which are of the most importance for all of humanity.

There is a climate change thread which will be buried in the archives by Saturday afternon or Sunday morning and only ten individuals have posted on it. "Progessives" is a joke here, as is serious thinking.

It matters very little, I would think, in the larger scheme of things "American" just what a pastor has to say. What bothers me more is all this nonsense about god bless america everytime some pol ends a speech. Enough already. If there is a "god" who blesses America, then let that be god's thing. We all "bless" or "damn" more than just America all day long with our myriad deeds. So far as anyone knows, no "god" has intervened to prevent this. By the way it is IMPOSSIBLE to challenge racism as a black person, a white person or any person of ethnicity. You may confront it on that basis all you want, but you will never present a challenge to it. Racism is a product of an unnatural contrivance. Buying into it will not challenge it. You can only challenge it from the depths of your humanity, not ignoring differences, but looking through them from the human in yourself to the human in others. Racism is not an effrontery to any ethnic countenance. It is an effrontery to human dignity and common sense. Your ethnicity is a product of nature's creativity, not mankind's egoist notions. Get real, people. It's 2008 on the so called Christian calendar. Stop playing god, in case such god gets tired of being played.

Ms. Ehrenreich,
As a supporter of you I feel you are greatly misjudging Obama. He is not a progressive. I know we progressives would like to feel that all our hard work is finally paying off in moving this nation slightly in a progressive direction by electing someone who, finally, for the first time in America, would be a progressive president. But really, now, face the fact: Obama is not a progressive, he is not running as one, and he is not going to govern as one; and he's not going to get us out of Iraq, end the war on terror, rollback the military industrial complex or democratize our domestic culture either.

This emailer to Paul Street just today said it best (and he starts out quoting you, Ms. Ehrenreich):

"Obama has given a beautiful speech on race and his affiliation with the Trinity Unity Church of Christ

- Barbara Ehrenreich, March 2008 (http://ehrenreich.blogs.com/barbaras_blog/2008/03/hillarys-nasty.html)

It's hard sometimes for me to understand how Obama is able to milk so much reaction out of speeches that are not only pedestrian, but which contain truly startling statements. The speech he made yesterday, for example: how can he manage to dedicate a whole address to the importance of overcoming racism, and in the middle of that talk not only essentially smear his pastor with the "Angry Black" stereotype, but also endorse the ongoing US policy of racism and injustice towards the Palestinians, and then somehow come out of the whole thing smelling like roses, sending hyperventilating progressives all over the country to their smelling salts, believing that they've heard the "greatest speech' of modern times!"

- "epppie," an e-mail correspondent, March 19, 2008"

http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/16947

So whats the big deal? There is absolutely nothing wrong with daily prayer for guidance. Barbara, until your last paragraph, you could have been reporting facts, not opinion, right. Your agenda is plain to see.
I'm not a Hillary fan, or even a Democrat for that matter.
But the real thinking people in this country are getting 'overly bored' with all of your "secular progressive hooeey."
Perhaps it's time to rethink your purpose; Holy Week is for those like you too, Barbara. Much, much more than you think. No doubt you have lots of friends in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, but not here in the heart of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

My2sense (March 21st, 2008 2:51 pm) wrote: "Whether or not this information is true about Hillary's church- whether or not Obama can be blamed because his pastor is angry about the way blacks have been treated in this country- maybe it's important to some people- it isn't really important to me."

I agree, My2sense. I attended a wedding years ago where the minister deviated from the standard ceremony and offered up his ecumenical opinions and then asked all of the wedding guests to come forward and take communion by eating the wafer and drinking the wine. While I didn't step forward to take communion, since I think it's a silly ceremony having nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus, I also didn't stand up and disagree with the minister's rant. It would have been inappropriate to the occasion and accomplished nothing except making me look like a jerk.

Except as its use as a smear, and a chance to play that "God damn America" clip for the umpteeth time out of context, I don't understand what the Big Media expected Obama to do if his preacher said something with which he didn't agree -- jump to his feet and argue with him? Then perhaps we'd be seeing the video clip of Obama acting like a jerk in church, disrupting the service with his fiery denunciations of Wright's words.

BTW, has anyone heard that every sermon by Wright at Trinity U.C.C. is on videotape? It's quite possible that the "God damn America" speech, which Obama was not in church to hear, only happened once. You can bet if there were other such eruptions, the GOP or Hillary's campaign would make sure the Big Media got the tape.

Aside from that, what place does any American have telling another American they don't have a right to express their opinion? I'd be more worried about Obama trying to silence Wright to serve his campaign than I am about him disagreeing with some of what Wright says while maintaining his friendship with him. Only the corporate dingbats in the BM seem to have a problem with free speech for the proles and, naturally, they'd loudly object if someone tried to shut them up.

Riverman101, either Barbara Boxer or Bill Richardson would be a good choice as Obama's VP.

Drbnp48 (March 21st, 2008 4:50 pm) thanks for that telling anecdote. My friends who worked for Obama's campaign in Iowa said the 'Hill People' were incredibly arrogant, rude and dismissive of the Iowans, the attitude being, "You dumb yokels get in there and vote for Hillary and no back talk!" They also reported that they met several Iowans who were paid to go to Hillary rallies and wave signs -- no wonder she went through $140 million so quickly!

What an amazing coincidence as on the same day I read this article, I also read a biography about a woman's experiences building homes and living in Port Royal on the island of Roatan in Honduras where she talks about her experience with General Alvarez and a CIA agent working with him. During July of 1976 she had a Open House, later Colonel Alvarez had her brutally hauled away to La Ceiba on the mainland for even more brutal interrogation regarding people whom she did not know but who had come to the Open House. It did not matter that on two searches of her home there was no evidence of drugs. She presents the general in the same manner as is presented here. He escaped punishment in Honduras for his torture tactics to later be welcomed into the fold of powerful American leaders as a religious leader! The book is 'Roatan Odyssey' by Anne Jennings Brown, published in the UK.

There are only three people running for President.
All three have one fault: they cannot see what is in front of their nose:

1_ McCain did not recognize that his own 2nd or third wife Cindy was addicted to Vicoden and stealing from a charity.

2) Hillary did not see that her husband was screwing with a list of dumb bimbos who were brought to him by the state police while in Alabama

3) Obama did not tell his pastor to get with the program and stop hatemongering.

So these are fallible people- everybdoy is including the voters and you Green Party people think you can find a perfect person to run for office??? Give up and vote for Obama and get him in!!!!!!!!We need you green people and we will be so grateful if you nominate Obama as your choice.

This whole thread is sad, especially the condescending tone of people lecturing AndieG without looking at the core of bitter experience and the elements of truthfulness mixed into her opinions. It attacks the surface but does not see into the heart.

It has the same self-satistied, lecturing tone of well-to-do liberal friends in my High School who were critical that I would not buy a ticket to go to MLK March on Washington.

One girl, who had shoes to match every outfit, said that if if I really cared about racial equality, I would go.

Meanwhile, the only Black people they knew cleaned their houses and served them at dinner, while I lived in a low income project surrounded by black people who were our friends for years. Like AndieG Black people came to our door for many things from friendship to asking my mother to chase away rats in their apartments, to fix up a wound or deliver a baby. We had friendship and respect, went to holiday parties together etc. There were limits. We did not date each other, since an inter-racial couple would have been in danger the minute they stepped out of the boundaries of the project.

We were as poor as our neighbors, poorer than many. I worked on Saturdays and after school, yet often we had no money for TP or laundry detergent or food other than corn meal - so a bus ride to DC was out of the question.

My mother and my family worked and were chased, ostracized and beaten up for racial equality over the years. I know I probably have many failings in this regard, and I am willing to listen and I do listen.

But that high lecturing from above attitude of liberal superiority still infuriates me. I see it in many comments which propose that AndieG read things, presuming she has not. Besides, books are one important way to learn about life, but they are not the only way.

One of my kids went to a Quaker camp - during one service while another boy was talking at length about his transformations and insights, my son leaned over and whispered quietly to me "Mom, he is not as good as he thinks he is." Very few of us are.

Class and race. Race and class. Health and injury. Mental quickness and slowness. Citizenship and lack of nationality. Education and numbing work.

The scars and the insults and the injuries continue. Let's listen to each other and not turn on each other. Let's criticize with knowledge that each of us has a story and many painful experiences, so let's criticize patiently and humbly.

Meantime I googled Rev. Jeremiah Wright.
I discovered that his Father Rev, Wright Sr, was pastor at a church around the corner from our Apt, in Phila. His Mother DR. Mary Henderson Wright, and I'm sure I encountered her in my networking in town over 20 years. ( name recognition, my activities in Education) There is a Scholorship in her name, for graduating High school FEMALE Seniors in the fields of Math or Education!
His Grandparents are also college graduates. A lot more credential in this family, than behind Hagee or some of those right wing religious nuts! NO WONDER WRIGHT JR Is angry!

LOL. There is nothing quite as refreshing as the righteous indignation of a conscientious, God-fearing person telling someone like Hillary to "kiss my ass!"
Good for you drbnp48! When a person says you "shouldn't listen to anyone just because they can quote some scripture at you" that usually means they can't do it-- and I betcha if they COULD do it, they WOULD do it, and they would expect you to listen and OBEY them because they can do it.

Whether or not this information is true about Hillary's church-- whether or not Obama can be blamed because his pastor is angry about the way blacks have been treated in this country-- maybe it's important to some people-- it isn't really important to me. I have sat in lots of churches where the leadership doesn't speak for me and I don't feel especially responsible for their opinions, nor do I feel that they have the power to brainwash me.

But what does matter to me is this: The Clintons are now members of the Bilderberg Group (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXqj9epGEas). That scares the hell out of me.

Thanks, Maine Coast.

AndieG and other misinformed people,

Please take the time to peruse Barack Obama's autobiography, "Dreams From My Father", or at least look him up on Wikepedia, so your postings won't look so ridiculous.

Obama's maternal grandparents, Stanley & Madelyn Dunham, were originally from Kansas. During WW II Stanley Dunham served in Patton's army overseas & Madelyn worked at a Boeing plant in Wichita. After the war they moved to Seattle, WA, where Stanley worked as a furniture salesman. Looking for better opportunties, they then moved to Honolulu, Hawaii, where Stanley found work in another furniture store & Madelyn got a job as a secretary at a bank. Stanley ended up selling life insurance; one of Obama's childhood memories is of his frustrated grandfather sitting by the phone in the evenings, trying to sell insurance on the telephone.

The only reason Obama got into the Punahou School in Honolulu was because his grandfather's boss at the furniture store "knew somebody." These were not people of means by any stretch of the imagination. They did not "retire to Hawaii". Obama attended college & law school on scholarships.

AndieG

You still don't get it, and I'm cringing at the first part of your post.

Even Barack Obama's white grandmother, who he says loved him, believed the scary Black stereotypes and feared Black men, making him "cringe".

To All those who Condemn me as Racist: 'Before you condemn me, take a look at yourself' words from a song!

When I walked to school, with the ONLY two black students in our school, I was ostricized! I didn't care!

We moved here (central rural Florida) 7 years ago, there was one black person who owned a house down the street, we were the only ones to befriend him! When he needed a ride, to use the phone, was sick and needed food, and asprin, he came to our house! And was NEVER turned away! When some black men were denied the right to vote, (DMV registration problem) my husband took them to the Voter Registration Office, and helped them get to vote, as well as himself, in 2000!

Yes, I have known, been friends with many black people through out my life! Some, highly educated, some not! Some great people, some NOT! Same goes for white, and oriental, (I was part of Operation New Life, when Siagon fell)! Got a letter of accomendation for it!Whoopie! Didn't help me get healthcare when I needed it, didn't help me with my drug addiction when I self-medicated (too much)!

You all can call me all the "names" you want! I have been ignored in those stores! I have been homeless! What's your life experience, that gives you the right to call me names??

Because I suggest, that hold grudges is wrong? That drug problems, prison, ect. are as much a symptom of Poverty, as a race problem?? That at some point, you have to get off the 'pity potty', and except responsiblity for yourself??

I read a great deal, am college educated (night school), I'm just a bad speller! I read The Nation, The Popular Progressive, American Progress, Alternet, and Common Dreams! I read Exodus, by Leon Yuris at 16 years old, straight thru, that doesn't mean I think that Isreal is doing the right thing bombing, and starving the Palistinians! I know 'Black' history, I also know American history! 'OUR' government has done a lot of horrible things in our names to a lot of people; red, white, yellow and black! Men and women, children, and the disabled!! I have, and use my library card, it's the first thing I get when ever I move to a new area!

I have massive, long articles about Obama and Clinton! Which I could, but won't post here. It would prove to any open minded person, they are Both horribly flawed candidates! I was an Edwards supporter! (yes, I know about his voting record in the Senate) People change! It's irrelevent, he's out! Why, he's out I think is importent, but no one seems interested!

After extensive research, I can not vote for either of them!! You do what ever you feel you must!

Just stop the irrational name calling, and character bashing!!

The most importent aspect of this article to me is: ANY religous organiztion that even vaguely gets involved with Politics, should loose it tax exempt status!! See how fast they get out, and shut-up then!! Any Politician who tries to use, or brings up Religion should be barred from holding office!!For the Protection of Both!

Go here to read the Harpers magazine article about the Fellowship...
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2003/03/0079525

On the whole, things are looking good. Unless Obama gets totally clobbered in the PA primary, he looks forward to winning North Carolina and Indiana and the nomination. More Hillary supporters say they would vote for Obama in the general election than Obama people would for Hillary.

Pastor Wright says some crazy stuff. Its obvious he is pandering to people with old wounds and generational memories of institutional racism, and has them himself. Its to Obama's credit he can walk in two worlds, ghetto and "whitey", and he can help bring them closer together.

Rush and Hannity can babble on about all this, but they are preaching to a declining choir. Its the issues that count, not someone's firebrand preacher occasionally going off the deep end.

I always thought the National Prayer Breakfast was innocent Billy Graham apple pie Boy Scout stuff, not some nefarious super powered Masonic lodge for the elite.

Wow, this article has generated a LOT of response ! Guess it's pushing peoples buttons.

jcclientelle, you are absolutely right, if Hillary's mask ever falls off . . .

The WORST thing about her candidacy is that her supporters seem to want MORE of the Bush-Clinton dynasty, which has been in power since the Reagan years . . . anyone see the nauseating stories a while back about Slick Willie jetsetting around the world with HW Bush doing 'good deeds', and making sure everyone knew that they 'slept in separate beds aboard the luxury plane' ? Pass the barf bag please.

They are a bunch of pit vipers, but they don't sense heat, they sense humans. (Maybe the same thing, considering they're all cold-blooded). And of course Hillary triangulates. It's standard modus operandi for bisexuals, wired into their hard drives. How could it be otherwise ?

The United States has become too big to be governed by a central power. We need regional provinces, like Canada, which are fairly autonomous, and a much less invasive federal government.

I wish that people were not so critical of one another and their failings.

I wish people would learn and seek out factual information to understand rather than relying on ideology and seeking out facts only to support a particular point of view.

I wish there were some forgiveness...and kindness and compassion..instead of ridicule and arrogance.

I think it's sort of a christianity for cfr types. You know, it's all about fascist rulers and who's 'in' and who's not. The 'family'--it's like a joke on the mafia connotation! These people are mafia and they know it.

If this is true, if this organization actually functions as stated in the article, this needs to be widely exposed.

Hillary would like us to believe she's been "vetted" on everything. She certainly hasn't been vetted on this. Just what HAS she been vetted on that's relevant to the presidency?

Barbara, thanks for the intelligence. As usual, you break new ground.

Watching Hillary Clinton is like a horror movie in which the mask of an automaton is stripped away bit by bit and you see the disgusting rot underneath.

I think the most troubling thing about this article is it reveals the cozy relationship Hillary has with people like the notoriously racist Senator George Allen, and the fanatically right wing Ed Meese and John Ashcroft. I have nothing against Christianity or Jesus, but I can't for the life of me imagine someone of genuinely liberal or progressive persuasion in a prayer group or Bible-study group with such people as these. It goes without saying that this story will go nowhere in the corporate media, because there's no pastor or preacher who said "goddamn America" or anything like that--just a lot of neo-fascists wrapping themselves up in some twisted interpretation of Jesus and the Bible in order to form a more perfect tyranny for their corporate paymasters.

Truly frightening! I have distrusted Hilary for many years, and have been disgusted by many of her hawkish votes, but I had no idea she was a part of this secret power cult. Let's get the word out. Voters have the right to know she is dangerous.

Excellent posts: CEE MIRACLES, RSJ, ST JOHN, COLD WAR BABY, IOWA BLACKBIRD, ANNEY, TREE FITZ & KATHY DOT.

The only thing I'd add is that this little prayer breakfast is of the stuff that breeds war in polite back rooms. Any who don't recognize the degree to which religion has been used as a cause FOR war across the centuries is not paying attention. When religion serves the Creative forces by promoting peace among tribes, it has a place in politics. When by contrast it forms a false cover to pursue imperialistic ventures that cause utmost destruction, it MUST be opposed, for its capacity to do harm is boundless.

I love this article.

"Virginia's notoriously racist Senator George Allen."

Holy macaca, Batman...

Scuse me, I have to hurry out to the Kroger and stock up on Reynolds Wrap - I feel a little draft around my ears.

Obama/Richardson. I like the sound of that.

CNN just posted a story about Reverend Wright's photo with Bill Clinton at a White House prayer breakfast in 1998. Just curious: is this the same annual national prayer breakfast referenced in Barbara Ehrenreich's article? Wouldn't that be a kick in the head.

I'm neither a Hillary nor an Obama supporter. I'll vote for either in the general election. I find them pretty much the same, other than color and gender. So I do find it hypocritical that when Obama pulls the race card for himself, it's ok, but if anyone else does, he's the victim. Politics is a dirty business, and if people still think Obama is "clean" in all this, they are naive and/or uninformed.

I don't really care who is the Democratic nominee at this point, both Hillary and Obama are flawed. What I also find hypocritical is that Obama supporters seem bent on destroying Hillary, even though she is far superior to the Republican alternative. If for whatever reasons Hillary is the nominee, and people here don't get behind her, they will be to blame for More of the Same McCain. So be careful what you say about Hillary, you may have to vote for her. And if you waste your vote on a 3d party candidate, thanks for nothing. You can sit atop your pillar of superiority while more die in Iraq, more conservative judges are appointed to strip away our rights, and the Earth burns due to global climate change.

AdeleTheCzech (March 20th, 2008 12:57 pm) wrote: "Also, WHY are the media ignoring the over-the-top bellowings of McCain's "spiritual" buddy Rev. John Hagee, with his branding of Catholics as whores and other outrageous statements? Why is it not being demanded of McCain that he throw Hagee under the bus, if Obama is supposed to do that to Rev. Wright? What a ridiculous double standard."

I've been wondering the same thing, Adele. It was appalling last Sunday to watch Dana Bash, a reporter for CNN, attack Obama's relationship to Wright while excusing McCain because, as she said, he barely knows his religious endorsers. Think about that: McCain says he is "very proud" to accept the endorsement from a religious nutcase like John Hagee, who calls the Catholic church the "Great Whore," has blamed Hurricane Katrina on God's judgment against gay people, and once held a mock slave auction at his church, yet he doesn't know what he stands for since he 'barely knows' him. What does this say about McCain's judgment -- not to mention his sanity?

One paragraph in the Mother Jones article Barbara Ehrenreich cited jumped out:

"Liberal rabbi Michael Lerner, whose 'politics of meaning' Clinton made famous in a speech early in her White House tenure, sees the senator's ambivalence as both more and less than calculated opportunism. He believes she has genuine sympathy for liberal causes-rights for women, gays, immigrants-but often will not follow through. 'There is something in her that pushes her toward caring about others, as long as there's no price to pay. But in politics, there is a price to pay.'"
-- Kathryn Joyce and Jeff Sharlet, "Hillary's Prayer: Hillary Clinton's Religion and Politics," Mother Jones, Sept. 1, 2007.
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillarys-prayer.html

To me, that summarizes Hillary Clinton's true commitment to progressive government -- she'll do it, "as long as there's no price to pay."

Frank1569 (March 20th, 2008 2:39 pm), you're on target -- what happened to the days when people kept their religion to themselves, for the most part. It was a matter of politeness, if nothing else.

Quality Time (March 20th, 2008 2:53 pm) wrote: "Games and more games. Doesn't anyone notice the lack of viable candidates to oppose McCain (or any other Republican for that matter)? All we have thus far are a couple of adults acting like preschoolers, snarling and spitting with little substance behind them."

Quality Time, please cite some instance where Obama acted like a pre-schooler and snarled or spitted at Hillary Clinton? If you saw Obama's speech last Tuesday, it was an adult talking to adults; on the same day MSNBC played a clip of Hillary talking to adults as if they were children. You might also notice on the anniversary of Bush's invasion of Iraq, Obama made a speech on the issue; Hillary carped about the Michigan vote that she had formerly agreed to forswear and now wants to count or revote. Obama is a viable candidate against McCain -- Hillary is less of one, since she has been publicly lauding McCain over her Democratic opponent and engendering the resentment of many Dems with her 'kitchen sink' strategy.

Samski (March 20th, 2008 2:59 pm) Jesus said beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inside are ravening wolves. I can't think of any more ravening wolves than those who make our laws in the Temple of Mammon that is Washington. Talk about a generation of vipers.

Valsmith (March 20th, 2008 3:26 pm) wrote: "And to condemn Hillary for being a member of a loose-knit organization whose members, halfway around the world, have been dictators, is as silly as condemning American members of the Rotary Club because their German counterparts kicked out Jews in an attempt to appease the nazis."

So you don't think the Rotary Club kicking out Jews to appease the Nazis is a big deal? It happened in America as well as Germany, I understand, before WWII. The fact is, if Obama had belonged to a 'prayer group' that once contained Papa Doc Duvalier and Idi Amin, you can bet that Hillary's campaign and cable news would be raking him over the coals for his group's 'unsavory relationships' and for his 'questionable judgment' right now.

AndieG (March 20th, 2008 4:32 pm) wrote: "Poor, and even middle-class people DON'T retire to Hawaii!! The cost of living is Extremely high! His mother, and her parents were from Kansas, and retired to Hawaii! NOT POOR! Check out the tuition for Occidential College!! (In his history on his web site)"

That's nonsense -- it depends on where you live. My barely middle-class friend goes to Hawaii every year on vacation and stays in a relatively cheap area off the main island. Besides, Obama never said he was from a 'poor' family, just that his single mother and grandparents raised him. Also, Obama did not 'hire' Wright to work on his campaign -- Wright was a volunteer before he quit.

Anney (March 20th, 2008 7:05 pm) thanks for posting that info on the awful Tuskegee Experiment. Since the end of WWII, the 'doctors' involved knew they could easily cure the men with antibiotics but deemed their 'experiment' more important than their patients' lives and health. As far as their black collaborators -- just look at Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas and Condoleezza Rice today -- they sold out their people to be rewarded by the white establishment they must know is doing them harm. Imagine if a large group of white people in this country ever had a similar 'experiment' conducted on them -- they'd be damn angry, too.

PeaceLove (March 20th, 2008 7:59 pm) wrote: "While I have your attention, why is it that Saint Obama never talks about his life between 1989 and 2004."

Obama spent years in the Illinois State Senate before he ran for the US Senate -- in fact, he's held elective office longer than Hillary -- and before that he worked with unemployed steelworkers on Chicago's South side. It's no mystery what he was doing in the years between 1989 and 2004 -- he's talked about it and it's a matter of public record for those who want to seek the truth rather spread a smear.

TreeFitz (March 20th, 2008 11:08 pm), great post and you're absolutely right; I remember as late as the early '60s -- in the North -- restaurants telling black patrons that the restrooms were out of order or private, while allowing whites to use them. I also recall signs in southern Ohio and northern Kentucky, circa 1962, instructing black folks to pick up their food at the back window of the restaurant, since they weren't permitted to enter the front door.

Unknown_Unknownable (March 21st, 2008 12:19 am) wrote: "Senator Baraq Hussein Obama, Jr.'s father was not only a devout Muslim, but also a relentless polygamist."

UU, that's pure right-wing hogwash. Obama's Kenyan father left the family when Obama was 2, and he only met the man again when he was an adult. His father was also not a Muslim; he was born a Muslim, but became an atheist as an adult, and he was not a polygamist. Obama's Indonesian stepfather was a Muslim, but he didn't practice the faith, and he was not a polygamist. Neither his mother nor her parents were ever Muslims or polygamists. Stop spreading these stupid lies.

From the AP this morning:

"New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, America's only Hispanic governor, is endorsing Sen. Barack Obama for president, calling him a 'once-in-a- lifetime leader' who can unite the nation and restore the country's international leadership."
-- "New Mexico's Richardson endorses Obama," AP, March 21, 2008.

Richardson's full quote from the AP article: "I believe he is the kind of once-in-a-lifetime leader that can bring our nation together and restore America's moral leadership in the world...
"As a presidential candidate, I know full well Sen. Obama's unique moral ability to inspire the American people to confront our urgent challenges at home and abroad in a spirit of bipartisanship and reconciliation." [...]
"[Obama] will be a historic and great president, who can bring us the change we so desperately need by bringing us together as a nation here at home and with our allies abroad."

Could an Obama/Richardson ticket be in the offing? Could be a winner -- Richardson is an expert on foreign affairs and has run a good state government in NM.

Yup, the freepers and racists are coming out of the woodwork (and no, I'm not referring to Hillary supporters, so don't even go there; I'm referring to the anything-but-progressives who are posting here). Why don't you go listen to your pals Rush and O'Reilly instead. We hear your crap all the time; we don't need it here.

I've read some very smart, critical articles and editorials here, putting Obama under the magnifying glass.

American has been hearing clips of the ANGRY BLACK MAN WAVING HIS HANDS and shouting "GODDAMN AMERICA"... totally out of context, 24-7 for a week... with only one short break... on Obama's "race" speech day.

And people want to come up in here posting that ANY article putting Clinton under close, well reasoned scrutiny is a 'SMEAR CAMPAIGN?"

Ya'all are crackpot freepers and FREEZE? you are the flippin queen.

My problem with "God damn America" is that I don't believe in God.

rmax

Why is showing the hypocrisy of a candidate considered to be "bashing" or "castin aspersions"? You know, don't you, that Mrs. Clinton's advisers said they had spent recent days making the case to wavering superdelegates that Mr. Obama's association with Mr. Wright would doom their party in the general election.

It is a very foolish move if one doesn't have clean hands on the same issue they're hoping will kill their opponent. No WAY will Obama supporters let her get off this one scott-free.

I don't find Hillary-bashing to be a very strong basis for supporting Obama. I thought Obama (and by default, his supporters) would be above such shameful tactics. Casting aspersions on Hillary's religious affiliations is the same as blaming Obama for Wright's hate speech. Two wrongs don't make a right. It makes me suspect Obama (and by default, his supporters) even more.

I bet the only thing the mudslingers can pin on McCain is falling asleep during the sermon!

Cee Miracles, what you wrote was very powerful. My own daughter in law is black and I have seen the discrimination she frequently experiences.

Obama accomplished a great deal as state Senator in Illinois. Among many other bills, he introduced and managed to get into law a bill that no on wanted, especially the police, requiring that all homicide interrogations and confessions be videotaped. He tried to pass a law against racial profiling, but couldn't so he settled for a law that police must document the race of drivers they stop, and even that significantly reduced the number of "driving while black" pullovers. There have been many other reform laws he introduced, some passed, many did not. He was working with an entrenched Republican "good old boy" legislature, but he managed to be well liked in spite of his unpopular reforms. That speaks to me that he can get things done in an unwilling environment. In the US Senate, he managed to pass a lobbyist transparency bill, which as one Senator said, has made him "not very popular around here right now". I believe at this time he is waht we need. The corporate elite prefer McCain, but will settle for Hillary. The right wing will go berserk if Hillary gets the nomination. And more and more of the left wing will abandon the Democratic party if she gets the nomination. Some, like me, would never have voted for her, others are repelled by her behavior. Some of them might vote for her anyway when faced with McCain; I know she's counting on that. Personally I think she's almost as amoral as Bush. Although not quite. But I don't think she would be good for this country. If people need to experience more pain to get their heads screwed on straight, they will get it from Hillary or McCain. I've become philosophical about it. When the student is ready the teacher appears.

kathyodat

i think you all; should re-read this article and then look at the article from harper's that ms ehrenreich cites - it aint about pastors - it's about powerful conspiracy...

"THE Family"?

any relation to the Christian cult of 20-30 years ago?

The one that sent out young teen girls of 12,13,14,15 to "flirty fishy" (flirt with guys, bring them back for sex) for recruitment of new members?

I knew a girl/woman that joined them after high school, changed her name, incommunicado for years, only came home once to visit her crying begging parents with a guy that would not let her talk to any of her old friends, never saw or heard from her again.

I was forced to be a Catholic, I gave it up for Lent at 13. So happy to be away from THAT cult.

"THE Family" ya, I wonder..........

AndieG --

Here are your two homework assignments:

1) Go buy a dictionary. Look up the following words: anthropoligist, your, irrelevent, importent, except, their, disparencey

2) Pick up a 4th Grade History textbook, calendar, and calculator. Look at calendar; get current year. Enter year into calculator; press subtract. Open book; find date slavery was outlawed in U.S. Enter year into calculator; press equals. If resulting number is anything other than 143, you win a million dollars.

3) Watch Obama's entire speech on race from the other day. He artfully explains, in a manner I believe only the most unreasonable people cannot understand, how someone with the life experiences Rev. Wright has had can be prone to the occasional outburst. His life in the 50s was very different from yours. Even if, according to your math, slavery had ended 150 years earlier...

Unknown_Unknownable [sic] says:

"Simply stated, Hillary's pastor never uttered "God damn America"; but, Obama's (or Osama's) pastor did. // In America, we say "In God we trust", not "May the almighty Lord besmirch America". // Baraq Hussein Obama, Jr. is not fit to serve this nation. Let's put it this way."

+++++++++++++
I heard a portion of Rev. Jeremiah Wright's sermon. The anger was genuine and for cause. He spoke the truth. I cheered all by myself in my kitchen, up until he said the last three words. "The government gives them drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants to sing 'God Bless America. No, no, no, not 'God Bless America' -- 'God Damn America.'"

I certainly understood the anger and the reasons for it, but I wish he hadn't said it the way he said it, but by the same token I respected the passionate, righteous anger. And I couldn't help but say: "It's about time. This man speaks the Truth."

I, as a white woman who has led groups and entertained in correctional facilities, have lamented the disparity of numbers: 3-5 white men to 20 black men in a group, and the sheer waste of talent and intelligence and youth, and the potential, as I saw and experienced amazing sensibilities and compassion. Sure, outside of the group and out in the "Yard," the tough-guy, survivor mask has to be worn, and sure, if I met these same men back out on the streets in their old neighborhoods, without jobs, and maybe back to crack, I told them, that I knew even if they recognized me, they might very likely hit me over the head to get money if they needed a fix.

But there was goodness in most of these men, and curiosity and wanting to know, and truly wanting, yearning to succeed and stay clean once they got out. And that's very tough to do when there is so little out there for them ... a black man with a record ... and too often a black man doesn't even have to have a record to draw suspicion to himself or be treated differently than a white man ... still.

I advocated for and helped care for a parolee with AIDS until his death. I found out that he was being given experimental drugs without being informed, without his consent. For days I sat with him and sang to him until he came out of a coma, but it turned out he had a hole at the base of his spine because the intensive care unit nurses didn't turn him. "Oh, he's gonna' die anyway," one said. I read the riot act at that "teaching" hospital with its healthy income from Federal research grants.

I met his family in Brooklyn after he died [and it was a good and peaceful death in another place I'd found for him] ... They lived in the Bedford-Stuyvesant projects just a few blocks from where my father was born, it turned out, when that section of Brooklyn was prosperous and beautiful, circa 1900. I loved them and their sense of life and their generosity of heart and spirit. They took me in as family as I did them. And I watched the beautiful children dance and laugh in the confines of the tiny apartment, and then I heard the police sirens and the raucous yelling and boom-box music outside and some gunshots, and I wondered what would happen to the children in just a few years in a neighborhood with chain-link fences and crumbling homes and rusting junk and trash littered everywhere, and the black limos with the white men in them who were distributing drugs to their pushers and runners.

Black slaves were the largest immigrant population that ever came to our shores ... 8 million, and against their will. Without them, Colonial America and then the brand-new nation would not have had a viable economy, would not have survived. That's a fact. They are the ones who cleared the land, ploughed the ground, grew and harvested cotton and the food, ... and cooked it and served it for white masters, including our white Founding Fathers.

After slavery was abolished, the economic and educational gaps were glaring. Those gaps are still with us for too many. Yes, great strides have been made, but not enough. And prisons are Big Business, and many of them have been privatized under this Bush Administration. And they have to be filled to make a profit. A profit on human misery? How American. ... A profit on young through middle-aged black, Latino, Mexican men, and poor men who can't get a job and earn a living; a profit on addicted men who get hooked by the Drug Lords of the White Establishment ... Maybe, yes, God Damn, America, Reverend Wright. We deserve it ... for our apathy, our ignorance, our lack of love and caring, our blinking and winking at truth and justice and fairness for several hundred years.

I think Barack Obama gave a memorable speech, and was grace under pressure, and maybe, just maybe, he is exactly the right man for the very big job of leader of our nation ... because he is a bridge ... and a healer, I suspect. And maybe, just maybe, Unknown_Unknownable [sic], Barack Hussein Obama has appeared at this very time, in this now sorry, apathetic, hypocritical, greedy, selfish and shallow nation to give us all another chance instead of being damned for our past-and-current follies of hate and prejudice and injustice, squandering our own possibilities as that nation once looked to as the beacon of freedom and justice for all.

In God We Trust ... or is it violence and nuclear weapons and power and money we trust in? Hillary Clinton is a grave disappointment because she is dishonest, and most unfortunately, primarily with herself; John McCain is known to be suddenly volatile and seems to be kissing every ass there is, no matter who it belongs to, to become president, and he wants to get the "Bad Guys," just like GW, no matter how long it takes. Approximately one million, two hundred thousand Iraqis have died in these last five years. Don't they matter?

So aside from the candidates who were dissed out of the run for president, that leaves Barack Hussein Obama. Perhaps, Unknown_Unknownable [sic], that God we purport to trust in, that God with a celestially grand sense of humor and excellent timing, is saying here, here is a living lesson. He's doing all right, more than all right, and remember, he is not just black, but also white ... and does it really matter if the substance is there? ... Let's see what YOU decide this time?

... and I've now read the rest of your posts, Unknown_Unknownable [sic]. I think you've got a real problem with your prejudice and hatred. Allegedly since God created All creations, you seem to have a hang-up about Muslim/Islamic peoples. In God You Trust? Indeed.

peace ... wouldn't that be wonderful for a change?

What a total bunch of stupiid crap this is.

We Americans are facing a depression which will make the one of 29 seem like a rather bad day. We are spending at least $12 billion a month for an illegal occupation of iraq. Our president and Cheney are chomping at the bit to attack Iran. Global warming, which is causing serious world wide climate change and water shortages, droughts, etc is caused from burning fossil fuels and no one is doing a damn thing to correct it.

The Arctic methane gas is going to bloom out into the atmosphere and kill everything on the planet in perhaps as few as five years and we are killing off the vital to life ocean's phytoplankton, DU is contaminating the entire world, FOREVER, and here we are blogging about Hillary's and Obama's pastors. ___ Shit, are we all stupid or just plain crazy?

Unknown, what's wrong with you? Are you accusing Obama of being a Muslim (as if there was something wrong with that anyway) and a polygamist? Where are you coming from? Hannity or just Hillary's campaign?

kathyodat

Obama gave an incredible speech saying we need to come together to resolve our common problems, and blacks and whites both have just grievances, and now people are at each others' throats.

He did the honorable thing be refusing to throw Rev. Wright under the train while denouncing his inflammatory statements. And he's being crucified for that. The public wants blood. Maybe this country just isn't ready for Obama. I hope that isn't so. If we get Hillary or McCain, they will continue to funnel what's left of our wealth to the rich and run around the world warmongering. Hillary will push for her gift of a health care plan for the insurance industry (you can bet they are drooling at the idea of mandatory premiums). Our economy will continue it's nosedive and at some point the public will realize we really do need to change direction

Andie G, I know perfectly well what Libertarians stand for. What Andrew Sullivan said was "Not this man, but this candidacy is what the country needs at this time". Obama is trying to bring people into the political process, to empower them to create change. That is what Sullivan was talking about. And I think you're clueless about the black experience in this country. But that's not the point. What is the point is that the elite use racial divisiveness to obscure their ripoff of working people. They've got us fighting with each other instead of focusing on them while they pick our pockets. It's working pretty well.

kathyodat

Senator Baraq Hussein Obama, Jr.'s father was not only a devout Muslim, but also a relentless polygamist.

Why does Sen. Obama refuse to acknowledge his Islamic root or his father's polygamist religious beliefs?

And, why doesn't Barbara Ehrenreich talk about the Sen. Obama's father's polygamist religion?

Does Barbara Ehrenreich also prefer a polygamist man over others?

Here's another good source for progressive news:

http://www.democracynow.org

"This is all garbage. Come on people. We have a chance to start fixing the mess that Bush has left with either Obama or Clinton.

I used to have a lot of respect for Common Dreams, but if they continue to publish this trash, I'll be off looking at real issues."

I agree with the person who wrote this. Common Dreams has been my default page and I intended to donate. I used to really enjoy reading Common Dreams. I no longer believe in its authenticity. Signing off to this junk.

The accusations against Obama sound like the old political trick of attacking your opponent for what you are doing. Both Hillary and McCain are more closely attached to more nut job ministers than Obama. Now Obama's passport file has been hacked into on 3 occasions by 3 different people. Next thing something will crop up about his mother who worked in Indonesia as a translator.

Merely a coincidence I am sure.

The bruhaha surrounding the passionate preaching of Wright ( nevermind that his church has a blazing record for doing some of the most powerfully loving things in the community and talk about INCLUSIVE!) tells me just how racist this country still is.

But most people just can't hear it. It knocks their over-inflated view of their goodness out from under them. So sad this congnitive dissonance. How can we end the rampant inequality if we are still trying to maintain that it doesn't actually exist? Or that we are not direct beneficiaries?

See the moving film " Our America" about two teens living in the south side of Chicago and then tell me that black preachers don't have the right to be royally pissed off. Nothing he said shocks me---it just makes me sad that more preachers of all colors aren't saying the same things every Sunday from their pulpits. Then we might start seeing people coming together to make real change possible for all of us!

someone wrote, irrelevantly, that slavery has been banished in this country for 200 years. Duh. The civil war was 1861 to 1865. 2008 minus 1865 does not add up to 200.

There's slavery and there's the legacy of slavery. Even if we concede that 'slavery' ended at the end of the civil war, which was 142 years ago, NOT 200, the legacy of slavery maintained its toxic stench in this country. Jim Crow laws existed when I was born in 1953, a black girl couldn't drink from a white water fountain in lots ofplaces in 1958. . . that's fifty years ago and that's not so long ago and that is a legacy of slavery. And there are still plenty of people who believe blacks are inferior, another legacy of slavery.

We live with the stench of slavery. We have never confronted it as a country.

Slavery has nothing to do with Ehrenreich's column. I am sickened at the way the legacy of slavery continues. When people write sickening comments here about 'when will blacks be americans first' and ugly comments complaining about black miss america (we don't need a white miss america because THE miss america pageant is, let's be honest, a white institution with token minority representation, that's why we don't have a white one, we don't need a white one to give young white women pride in themselves, maybe black americans need institutions to give their people pride that has been stolen from them through the legacy of slavery.)

I am sickened when putative liberals subtly and not-so-subtly use racism to put Obama down and to boost Hilary up.

And I am aghast that some posts impugn Ms. Ehrenreich's crebility. Does anyone seriously believe The Family she describes in this column is a figment of her imagination?

I believe her. I believe Hilary is a conservative wolf seeking to hide herself in the sheep's clothing of being a liberal Democrat. Look at her voting records. She supports the empire, the elite. She does not support the people. She's in and she wants to maintain the elite for her kind.

Hilary could actually still do something to win my vote but I don't think she has it in her to do so. All she would have to do is say something true, one true thing. I don't believe she says anything that is not calculated to political manipulation. Obama, I believe, is doing his best to, well, show up real, with a real heart, a real humanity. The odds against his success are great.

I have never supported Hillary's candidacy. I will not vote for her, under any circumstance. But she lost me for good when she was being interviewed and someone said something about scurrilous commentary that implied Obama was Muslim and she said 'no, he's not Muslim AS FAR AS I KNOW". F that witch. Her words 'as far as I know' were venal. I don't want a venal person as President.

dear araquin

maybe you should look into the "prayer" meetings of which ms ehrenreich writes - before you dismiss her critique as so much entanglement of politics with religion....

also, your criticism of the average americans knowledge of geography and political astuteness may be accurate, but clearly the disdain for the life of the earth shown by world politicos has more to do with the collapse of all we hold most dear - your critique makes the same mistake europe has made since killing the druids - humanism at nature's expense.

Araquin

The truth hurts too much to admit...heaven forbid anyone point our racism in this country and get away with it.

Wright's comments were taken out of context and used to make them seem anti-American.

I would suggest that anyone never going to see a hell, fire, and brimstone preacher, visit one. White or black, they can really get going.

Nothing wrong with pointing out the inequalities in the world. Wonder if he had been pointing out the inequalities and sexist attitudes towards white women, if there would have been such an outcry?

I am a former Republican....and Texan to boot(GWB is a transplant, I don't claim him)

I was pointing out that the media isn't fair in its coverage.

The far right has ministers who engage in male prostitution...Hillary's former minister was convicted....and Obama has one that speaks out against discrimination....and McCain's new champion...well....wants to wipe out all Muslims....

Why are they ranting on about Obama in the media...I am really tired of it. I would like to see some REAL news...you know...the stuff they won't report around the world...economics...war...corruption(and how it is ignored if you are a part of the current admin)

Oh dear! You're really all determined to make me experience my own f***** up continent, Europe, look like the Holy Grail by comparison, right?

This eternal mud-slinging is just SO nauseating. I have so far really admired Barbara Ehrenreich. This is definitely over. Another one of the myriads of journalists to despise.

What has anybody's religion or attendance in whatever group got to do with his or her ability to govern your country? Ever heard about the separation of church and state over there???

It's not a lack of knowledge about religion that got America into the state it is in right now!! It was and is a blatant lack of knowledge of foreign affairs and about the world at large that did. While at the same time being a nation with an irrationally oversized military which has outposts in more than 100 countries. And hardly any of your presidents lately would have been able to pass any regular geography high school test in Europe.

I wish you'd all get much more excited about THAT than you keep getting excited about religion or which church one goes to or which group one has been associated with.

And, BTW: What exactly wasn't true in the remarks Obama's preacher made?? I couldn't find fault in any of the fact he quoted - can any of you?

Clinton's former pastor sentenced to prison for sexually assaulting a 7-year-old girl.

Now that Obama's lynching has gone off as planned, think the MSM will run this story about Clinton's former pastor? Or would that upset the planned election of either Israeli-firster Hillary vs. Israeli-firster McCain?

Judge to ex-pastor: 'You lied'

When the Rev. William Procanick put his hand on the Bible during his sex-abuse trial in Oneida County Court earlier this year, he swore to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

But as the former Clinton pastor was sentenced Friday to three years in prison for inappropriately touching a 7-year-old girl at his home last March, Judge Michael L. Dwyer said Procanick sacrificed his honesty the day he testified.

"As a minister of God, you got on the stand and you lied," Dwyer told Procanick, the 54-year-old former pastor of Resurrection Assembly of God church on Kirkland Avenue.

A jury found Procanick guilty Jan. 22 of first-degree sexual abuse and endangering the welfare of a child.

Dwyer said he believes Procanick was being honest when he told the girl's mother in a recorded phone call that he was wrong to caress the girl's body while she was trying to fall asleep.

However, Procanick instead testified in court that he did nothing wrong other than spend time alone with the girl, who was a friend of the family, Dwyer noted.

If Procanick had accepted responsibility from the beginning instead of straying from the truth, Dwyer said, Procanick would likely have faced a lesser punishment and possibly avoided jail time.

"The truth would have set you free," Dwyer said. "You had a chance to be a man and say, 'I made a mistake.' But as always, the cover-up is much worse than the original crime."

Procanick's defense attorney, George Aney, noted that Procanick still received a sentence less than the maximum, which was up to seven years in prison.

"It's considerably less than the maximum, but considerably more than he deserved," Aney said.

Aney also took issue with how Dwyer and the victim's mother used harsh language to attack Procanick's Christian values.

"You are just an evil man," the victim's mother said Friday in court. "You lied, and you had your wife lie. And all these people who showed up in court to support you, did you lie to them, too?"

The Observer-Dispatch does not identify sex-abuse victims and their families.
The victim's mother said her daughter is still waking up scared at night because of what happened, and she continues to see a therapist. The young girl also feels that everybody is mad at her, the mother said.

Assistant District Attorney Doug DeMarche Jr. then read a note written by the girl, who did not appear in court Friday.

"Bill made me sad and scared," DeMarche read. "I thought I did something wrong, because I trusted him."

Dwyer gave Procanick an opportunity to speak in court, but Procanick had nothing to say to the victim and her family.

Aney did not plan to speak in court, he told Dwyer, but he felt obligated to respond to what the victim's mother said about Procanick and his wife.

"I believe she shows her own lack of Christianity by referring to people as liars," Aney said.

After the sentencing, Aney further commented about what was said in court.

"I respect Judge Dwyer for what he said this morning, but I have to say I disagreed with him," Aney said. "I have every right to express my feelings, and my feelings are that we are not permitted to call anybody a liar. That's a judgment someone higher than I makes."

DeMarche, however, said he can understand why the girl's mother spoke of Procanick in such harsh terms.

"She had a lot of faith and trust in Mr. Procanick, and he violated that trust," DeMarche said. "I think she's justified in being angry."

Source: Utica Observer

What a bunch of Bulls**t this article and these posts are!! Is this Common Dreams or Common Crap? Come on people, get out of the mudhole and quit slinging it around.

It is strange that the right wing Repug, Hillary was trying to get a national health bill adopted against the wishes of the right wing Repugs.

I would rather have a president that was capable of making some money on a cattle contract than one like GWB that never could make anything work right and had to be bailed out every time by Daddy.

Obviously, our present occupant of the WH has no knowledge of anything concerning business and that is why our country is going down the drain. McWar does not seem to know much about the economy either, so you had better all start worrying about how to keep him from continuing the ruination.

Baraq Hussein Osama, Jr. was not there in the Senate to oppose it. He was not elected in 2002-03.

Baraq Hussein Obama, Jr. now claims to be everything to everyone when, in fact, he is no one to claim moral superiority over anyone.

Probably, if he were there in the Senate in 2002-03, he would have supported America's imperial invasion of Iraq like everyone else.

evil bastards use whatever they can or need to secure their power and their various fixes - if it was more expedient to call themselves satanists and have black masses they would - they are not christians - they are not anything - empty and meaningless and craving naught but power - there is no point in participating in their folly - better to mock them and begin the work of building our own lives in a world that needs a lot more nurses than politicians - there is no "political solution" to our crisis, any more than math can solve a pang of grief - build your own lives and do what you can along the way to knock the struts out from under the dull witted machine that eats what it cannot enslave - mccain, clinton, obama - all power brokers in a world that is soon to be gone - forget them and raise your children to love grasses and red-throated loons and each other and themselves and the rocks and the rivers and the seas

Thanks for your post, Max. I like the Parenti quote.

Correction - third sentence above should have read:

Hilary has supported the invasion & occupation of Iraq while Barack Obama has opposed it.

Rush Limbaugh and Hilary Clinton want people to vote for Hilary. They want them to get swept up in the emotional fog, and ignore the facts. Hilary has supported the invasion & occupation of Iraq while Barack Obama supported them. Over 800,000 dead Iraqis, over a million crippled - and Hilary, like McCain & Bush - think the invasion and occupation are good things.

Hilary supports the military industrial complex, while Obama wants to talk to our enemies to make peace.

The American establishment (Hilary, McCain, Bush) does not want the status quo to change. They do not want to admit that the USA is a huge problem for the world, due to it's military industrial complex and greed based culture. They do not want to talk to our enemies to try to make peace. They do not want to admit that the USA has a deeply rooted, severe racial divide. They prefer that we remain stupid, conceited, arrogant, and militaristic.

Those who want to move forward, those who want to see changes for the good of everyone - should get behind Barack Obama.

It is a huge miracle that he is running and a golden opportunity for all us who would like to see a better nation, and a better world to get firmly behind him.

http://www.BarackObama.org

------------------------

"We live in a nation hated abroad and frightened at home. A place in which we can reasonably refer to the American Republic in the past tense. A country that has moved into a post-constitutional era, no longer a nation of laws but an autotocracy run by law breakers, law evaders and law ignorers. A nation governed by a culture of impunity ... a culture in which corruption is no longer a form of deviance but the norm. We all live in a Mafia neighborhood now." Sam Smith

"24.9 percent of American children live in poverty, while the proportions in Germany, France and Italy are 8.6, 7.4 and 10.5 percent. And once born on the wrong side of the tracks, Americans are more likely to stay there than their counterparts in Europe. Those born to better-off families are more likely to stay better off. America is developing an aristocracy of the rich and a serfdom of the poor - the inevitable result of a twenty-year erosion of its social contract." Will Hutton

*****

"To oppose the policies of a government does not mean you are against the country or the people that the government supposedly represents. Such opposition should be called what it really is: democracy, or democratic dissent, or having a critical perspective about what your leaders are doing. Either we have the right to democratic dissent and criticism of these policies or we all lie down and let the leader, the Fuhrer, do what is best, while we follow uncritically, and obey whatever he commands. That's just what the Germans did with Hitler, and look where it got them."
Michael Parenti

*****

"We're not in the business of providing news and information, We're simply in the business
of selling our customers' products. "
Clear Channel CEO Lowry Mays

*****

"For most of the history of the American empire, government has been a tool for preserving and furthering the power and might of white male corporate elites ..."
Cornel West

Can Ehrenreich, or someone, please explain why she finds Jeremiah Wright "unsavory"? This seems to be the universal reaction of pundits, but I just don't get it. I have heard several statements attributed to him that don't seem terribly radical. Apparently he said America was founded on racism. I'm all right with that. Surely its a historically reasonable claim that the economy was built on slave labor and that politically, if the founding fathers had extended equal rights to blacks, they would have been run out of town. Is this controversial? Barbara Jordan pointed out the political disenfranchisement 30 years ago on the floor of the US House of Representatives in a famous speech on the Nixon impeachment. The role of slavery in the colonial economy is even a part of popular culture-- has anyone seen the popular musical "1776" ("Molasses,
Rum and Slaves" that linked the northeast and the deep south in the slave trade)? I'd like to hear some discussion of what Wright said, instead of knee-jerk reacions.

Wright also said in regard to 9/11, that we were getting back some of what we had been giving. Those are crude words, but there is an element truth that the pundits and the politicians (apparently, including Obama) still aren't mature enough to discuss.

This is a mudslinging political hit-piece anyway, based on guilt-by-association. I'll agree that Doug Coe and his organization are a bit scary, but bible study and prayer are what connect Clinton to him, not the foreign policy history of his organization. We do not need to dig up a private connection with her spiritual guide in order to have a discussion about Clinton's likely policies on human rights and foreign policy. She has a public record on these issues, for goodness sake.

I remember way back when Barbara Ehrenreich was a serious journalist. Now she's just another shill for Obama.

More than half of official Washington attends the National Prayer Breakfast, along with Hillary Clinton.

So what?

There aren't any facts in Barbara Ehrenreich's ludicrous smear of Hillary Clinton.

Does it matter?

It would have mattered, way back when Barbara Ehrenreich was a serious journalist.

Andie G

It has been about 140 years since slavery was outlawed in 1865. And some illegal immigrants are considered to be held in involuntary servitude today in US court cases... involuntary servitude is considered a form of slavery.

The last person who was legally a slave died in 1979

Why should native Americans get better treatment than Blacks?. The US has a long history that has not been good on human rights. The history of the native Americans contains an attempt by the US governmnet at genocide which has been largely successful. There are very few native Americans now.

Well I am the last person to think someone should become an American first...etc etc. I've given up on America... and moved to Canada. The US is corrupt and immoral and filled with badly educated and arrogant people. So I can not say anyone should be American first. The nationalism of so many Americans quite literally disgusts me considering what America has been doing...

I have not heard the speeches by Rev Wright..but I have heard some hatred based upon race from other blacks and I criticize them ...

I think there should be some sort of education in the public schools telling the truth about America ..and some museums that give graphic details about slavery.

I would like to see praise for blacks that they have given so much to America and survived a prejudice based upon racism, that is only recently beginning to be questioned.

"Bring up, hundreds of years old 'wrongs', doesn't make anything better! Hating, and teaching hatred, doesn't help anything!" AndieG quote

If ignorance is bliss t'is folly to be wise. Americans are ignorant of all the wrongs done by the government and that ignorance is leading to arrogance and continued immorality.

Obviously it's Hillary's fault, toss her in jail too.

~Riverdude~ has posted a couple of comments, (reed em and "weap").

Hillary's former minister convicted:

http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/6117

Clinton's former pastor sentenced to prison for sexually assaulting a 7 year-old girl

there is more to the "family" than the information contained in this short article. maybe the upcoming book will cover the whole thing. seems this group goes WAY back, and is not Christian, not American, and certainly not something clinton or any thinking person should consider joining.

please, folks, read up on this "family", back to its beginning, and then make a decision. i think Barbara did a good thing, bringing this out; i'm only sorry her article did not begin at the earliest record of this group, so there would be full understanding of the unsavory characters involved in this.

When Barb gets wild, who knows what else could come out of her pen!

Simply stated, Hillary's pastor never uttered "God damn America"; but, Obama's (or Osama's) pastor did.

In America, we say "In God we trust", not "May the almighty Lord besmirch America".

Baraq Hussein Obama, Jr. is not fit to serve this nation. Let's put it this way.

andie G and others:

I think everyone who hasn't taken the time or feel they know the content of Obama's Philadelphia speech should give it a go. I might just become historic. It doesn't have quite the passion of some of his others but then he didn't what to get "Deanonized" or become a caricature of the black Wright type preacher. He blends and weaves ideas, ideals, problems, emotions and ultimately solutions so calmly and masterfully that by the end you feel like you where back in college and just completed the most stimulating course by extraordinarily gifted professor that your thinking of switching your major.

I'm not sure why there hasn't been more articles, discussion, or comments about this memorable speech delivered in the heat of battle but you can fine some top flight articles on Huff Post if interested.

Even though I have lived in Hawaii for 35 years and live just up the street from Punahou school where Obama went to school, he only was my fourth choice behind Kucinich, Gore, and Edwards. But I really think there's something happening with Obama ...... Mr. Jones.....

It's very gross that Ehrenreich has become such a flack for Obama. Another mind lost to the apocalyptic delusion that Obama Christ will save us all. That she has become so very mentall infeebled that she kneels so fervently at the American Idol, makes me sad. I guess I can ignore anything Ehrenreich says from now on. Another voice of reason gone the way of America's Next Top Model. I assume Ehrenreich will take over hosting show?

AndieG, here's a suggestion. This has been done before, so you wouldn't be the first. Get some deep-bronze makeup and a dark, Afro-type wig, and pretend to be black for a day -- a whole day. See how it feels to be a black person in the U.S. of A, circa 2008. Try hailing a cab in mid-town Manhattan to get a ride up to 125th Street. Try walking into Hermes or Tiffany's and see how far you get through the door. Try applying for a loan for your business or for an A-rated mortgage or buying a car at the local car dealer and see what kind of a deal you're offered. Try renting an apartment in that upscale part of town and see what the realtor says (try: "sorry, no vacancies"). Those are just a few ideas.

Until you've walked in the shoes of an AFRICAN AMERICAN, you are in no position to judge.

By the way, if my husband served in Vietnam and the government poisoned him with exposure to Agent Orange and then lied about it and denied responsibility when they knew damn well that Agent Orange was poison to our soldiers, yes, I sure as hell would hate my country for that. For someone who says there's no point in hating, you seem pretty angry at black folks.

hey andie,

i do do something about it, but that's not the pont here. i agree with you that class disparities are at the root of most if not all of our problems. we're on the same page. however, the consequences of genocide and enslavement (exactly what the slave trade was) just don't magically dissipate. the US was late in the game for abloition of slavery. but the consequences of those errors are abundant. have you talked with many african americans at church lately andie?

also you ignored 2 points. anney's point that as recently as 40 years ago african americans were subjects for human testing ... did you miss the point white people weren't denied treatment for syphilis ?

and did you ignore the fact that the US government funnels cocaine into impoverished black neighborhoods (read the link i posted, andy, cover your ears for you'll hear words like crips and bloods). did you notice that the crack wasn't flooding neighborhoods like black oak, rippling creek or maplewood out there in the white suburbs (i mean gated communities)?

hey you said you looked at incarceration figures, do you see any connections in the concept it's more likely an african american male will go to prison than college? there is oppression in this country, you don't recognize it because you haven't looked for it - you're waring blinders.

also the cia tested LSD on civilian populations randomly on the subways, it has nothing to do w/ racism in america. did you watch mississippi burning andie? (it didn't happen '200' yrs ago, it's always been happening, it's happening right now)

....peace......

"TERRE HAUTE, Indiana (Reuters) - Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton unveiled a second economic stimulus package on Thursday "

Think that will help? George is trying to bribe American voters with a 'stimulus' which amounts to less than what he has spent monthly for each and every Iraqi man, woman and child. Has that 'stimulus' helped the Iraqi economy? It has only 'stimulated' the pockets of his Merchants of Death - and graveyards.

PL

You don't think Hillary belongs to this group?

Good heavens, all you have to do is research it. But all you've done is say you don't believe it. You certainly haven't rebutted it with any facts. You've got to do better than that, unless of course you don't want to know the truth.

She does belong to it and has for decades. She rubs shoulders with conservative power at these so-called prayer meetings and thinks Christianity is all about human political power, not meekness and humility.

America certainly needs a change. This is all we've had for at least three decades, power-mongering, fear-mongering, and war-mongering, and it is precisely this evil-mongering that has brought us to the edge of disaster.

There were also the men in the military, who without their knowledge were given LSD! They were white, and had no recoarse!

White people, women, and Hispanics, go to jail for drugs too. It wasn't just in the 'Hood'!

At a certain point, people have to accept some responsiblity for their own actions! We sit here and wonder, why after two hundred years, different religious sects, still hold grudges, and kill each other! Somebody did something to a specific group, two hundred years ago, and their still killing one another!

At what point do you say enough? Did anyone from 'that' group do anything to harm YOU? Do you really think Barack Obama, has suffered because he's Black? In Hawaii? If you answer yes, you've never been there!

Bring up, hundreds of years old 'wrongs', doesn't make anything better! Hating, and teaching hatred, doesn't help anything!

Yes, there are disparencey, between 'black's' and white, in number in jail, and health, I've also seen studies, that when you take only poor white people and compare the same number of poor black people the numbers even out! In other words, it's not ALL race, it's also about Income!!It's about Class! If your born Rich, you eat better, get better food, and go to better schools! Yes, more black people are born poorer then white people! Men make more money then women!

Life's NOT Fair! Do something about it!! Go to school! At night, (I did). Go without a few pizza's, or whatever! Save so you can buy a house, even if it's NOT your dream house! (I did, and it's a moble home, after being homeless, I was glad to have it)! Now, we own three!

Hating, holding grudges, isn't going to make it better!

I can't beleive Barbara Ehrenreich would stoop this low. So many of you are so hateful towards Hillary that you will believe anything and lap it up with gusto! I now question the validity of all B.E.'s books. If she is so quick to take this garbage as truth, what does this say about the "facts" she presents in her published works. I am disappointed. While I have your attention, why is it that Saint Obama never talks about his life between 1989 and 2004. He is a man in his late 40s, but his public resume only mentions his years as "social activist" in Chicago and the 2 years as Senator that he used as a springboard to run for president which means he has spent more time campaigning than working. Another point, he will turn his back on anyone who hinders his lofty political aspirations--starting with his grandmother who is left stranded in a shack in Kenya without electricity or running water--No I am not talking about his white grandparents who helped to raise him while he went to private school in Hawaii. How could anyone leave their own kin in those conditions? Maybe he doesn't want to spend too much time on his African heritage? Race is a touchy subject for this man--unlike for MLK with whom he is often compared or his pastor from whom he is currently running.

This is very good and useful information. I used to respect Hilary quite a bit, but since her massively negative campaign against Obama - she has become nearly as repulsive to me as G.W. Bush.

Barack Obama has the audacity to suggest that the USA has a deeply rooted racial problem. It's important for us to stand with him on that issue. Far too many Americans are choosing to sweep it under the rug - saying that it's not their problem. It's every American's problem, and it must be confronted and dealt with, not ignored.

After the way that Hilary has handled herself, it is very very disappointing to see so many still supporting her.

AndieG - you should visit the bookstore/library and ask the clerk for books on the civil rights movement. then after you've spent a few hours looking through the titles - reading; do a little research online and compare basic standards in america b/w whites and blacks stats like life expectancy rates, rates of incarceration, disparities in incomes and then come back to this thread and say discrimination doesn't exist in this country.

also.. rev wright spoke the truth learn how to do a little research andie,

the cia uses cocaine as a tool. why it's the white protestant thing to do. columbia which has received more military aid than any country save israel, also consider the price of cocaine in the US has dropped proportionately to the amount of military aid we send to columbia to prop up a right wing government (bush used cocaine, his brother is married to a columbian and his niece, jeb's little one, was strong out on crack).

we send more money in military aid they make more cocaine, all the money supports black ops for the cia (through people like noriega for specific situations like iran-contra). meanwhile the government is imprisoning poor black people for cocaine possession. i digress.... the original article about cia running drugs in the hood..

http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/webb.html

Cocaine pipeline financed rebels
Evidence points to CIA knowing of high-volume drug network

by Gary Webb / San Jose Mercury News /Aug 22, 1996

rev wright speaks the truth, the shame is MSM ignores the facts and refuses to put information into historical context and a significant amount of the american public has refused to do their homework. they're lazy, brainwashed and ignorant and they (us, american public/empire) are not WINNING any wars in fucking jesus' name. in fact if our current president extends his rampage into iran the entire world could experience nuclear war. like condensing history and imagining the crusades followed by the bubonic plague. all in one real fast.

"religion is the opiate of the masses" - karl marx
---------------------------------------------------------

hey kem,

good call, thanks for the reminder..

"We did it!
We reached a million!
1001256
the number of people
who have already voted
in the referendum
to Impeach Bush!"

http://www.impeachbush.org/site/PageServer

....peace.....

ColdWarBaby,

Entertaining and interesting comment. I agree with the great majority of it. I would add that many members of the oligarchy seem to think that they just may get away with it now because of the power of modern technology, especially computer and communications technology, which can potentially enable the few to exert much greater control over the many.

The gun has been called the "equalizer" in human history, as it gave every individual the ability to kill every other individual and made absolute despotism much more difficult to manage. Modern computing technology may end up being the "unequalizer."

Yes, it was horrible, and wrong! But are you aware that consciensous(sp?)Objectors during World War II, such as the Amish,(Friends) I heard it on NPR radio, volunteered to be exposed to radiation, to determine the effects! Similar things happened to orphans, in Mass. in the 30' and 40's!

You really didn't need to post the whole Muskeegee thing, I've heard about it, it was horrible too. But "Our" government didn't JUST do bad medical stuff to 'Black' people!

I was in the military, and so was my husband (70's), he was exposed to Agent Orange and died at 56, from Lymphoma! (his family all live into their 90's and 100's) Does that give me the right to Hate America??
Maybe just the Military, or the chemical companies??

I don't believe in Hate, revenge, or jealousy! Their like poison, they'll destroy you! You let it go, learn from it, and move on!!

Unfortunately, while recuperating from military service, I actually helped to build/rebuild "The Cedars" in the late eighties. That is to say, I know this place by the blisters of my very own palms. Don't let the words "tin foil hat" distract you from Barbara's scratches on the tip of this fascist iceberg. After all, you are all floating on the good ship lollipop, the titanic Xian empire of PNAC.

jesus! god help us.

AndieG

This is for your edification.

The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment

The United States government did something that was wrong—deeply, profoundly, morally wrong. It was an outrage to our commitment to integrity and equality for all our citizens. . . . clearly racist.
—President Clinton's apology for the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment to the eight remaining survivors, May 16, 1997

For forty years between 1932 and 1972, the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) conducted an experiment on 399 black men in the late stages of syphilis. These men, for the most part illiterate sharecroppers from one of the poorest counties in Alabama, were never told what disease they were suffering from or of its seriousness. Informed that they were being treated for "bad blood,"1 their doctors had no intention of curing them of syphilis at all. The data for the experiment was to be collected from autopsies of the men, and they were thus deliberately left to degenerate under the ravages of tertiary syphilis—which can include tumors, heart disease, paralysis, blindness, insanity, and death. "As I see it," one of the doctors involved explained, "we have no further interest in these patients until they die."
Using Human Beings as Laboratory Animals

The true nature of the experiment had to be kept from the subjects to ensure their cooperation. The sharecroppers' grossly disadvantaged lot in life made them easy to manipulate. Pleased at the prospect of free medical care—almost none of them had ever seen a doctor before—these unsophisticated and trusting men became the pawns in what James Jones, author of the excellent history on the subject, Bad Blood, identified as "the longest nontherapeutic experiment on human beings in medical history."

The study was meant to discover how syphilis affected blacks as opposed to whites—the theory being that whites experienced more neurological complications from syphilis whereas blacks were more susceptible to cardiovascular damage. How this knowledge would have changed clinical treatment of syphilis is uncertain. Although the PHS touted the study as one of great scientific merit, from the outset its actual benefits were hazy. It took almost forty years before someone involved in the study took a hard and honest look at the end results, reporting that "nothing learned will prevent, find, or cure a single case of infectious syphilis or bring us closer to our basic mission of controlling venereal disease in the United States." When the experiment was brought to the attention of the media in 1972, news anchor Harry Reasoner described it as an experiment that "used human beings as laboratory animals in a long and inefficient study of how long it takes syphilis to kill someone."
A Heavy Price in the Name of Bad Science

By the end of the experiment, 28 of the men had died directly of syphilis, 100 were dead of related complications, 40 of their wives had been infected, and 19 of their children had been born with congenital syphilis. How had these men been induced to endure a fatal disease in the name of science? To persuade the community to support the experiment, one of the original doctors admitted it "was necessary to carry on this study under the guise of a demonstration and provide treatment." At first, the men were prescribed the syphilis remedies of the day—bismuth, neoarsphenamine, and mercury—but in such small amounts that only 3 percent showed any improvement. These token doses of medicine were good public relations and did not interfere with the true aims of the study. Eventually, all syphilis treatment was replaced with "pink medicine"—aspirin. To ensure that the men would show up for a painful and potentially dangerous spinal tap, the PHS doctors misled them with a letter full of promotional hype: "Last Chance for Special Free Treatment." The fact that autopsies would eventually be required was also concealed. As a doctor explained, "If the colored population becomes aware that accepting free hospital care means a post-mortem, every darky will leave Macon County…" Even the Surgeon General of the United States participated in enticing the men to remain in the experiment, sending them certificates of appreciation after 25 years in the study.
Following Doctors' Orders

It takes little imagination to ascribe racist attitudes to the white government officials who ran the experiment, but what can one make of the numerous African Americans who collaborated with them? The experiment's name comes from the Tuskegee Institute, the black university founded by Booker T. Washington. Its affiliated hospital lent the PHS its medical facilities for the study, and other predominantly black institutions as well as local black doctors also participated. A black nurse, Eunice Rivers, was a central figure in the experiment for most of its forty years. The promise of recognition by a prestigious government agency may have obscured the troubling aspects of the study for some. A Tuskegee doctor, for example, praised "the educational advantages offered our interns and nurses as well as the added standing it will give the hospital." Nurse Rivers explained her role as one of passive obedience: "we were taught that we never diagnosed, we never prescribed; we followed the doctor's instructions!" It is clear that the men in the experiment trusted her and that she sincerely cared about their well-being, but her unquestioning submission to authority eclipsed her moral judgment. Even after the experiment was exposed to public scrutiny, she genuinely felt nothing ethical had been amiss.

One of the most chilling aspects of the experiment was how zealously the PHS kept these men from receiving treatment. When several nationwide campaigns to eradicate venereal disease came to Macon County, the men were prevented from participating. Even when penicillin was discovered in the 1940s—the first real cure for syphilis—the Tuskegee men were deliberately denied the medication. During World War II, 250 of the men registered for the draft and were consequently ordered to get treatment for syphilis, only to have the PHS exempt them. Pleased at their success, the PHS representative announced: "So far, we are keeping the known positive patients from getting treatment." The experiment continued in spite of the Henderson Act (1943), a public health law requiring testing and treatment for venereal disease, and in spite of the World Health Organization's Declaration of Helsinki (1964), which specified that "informed consent" was needed for experiment involving human beings.
Blowing the Whistle

The story finally broke in the Washington Star on July 25, 1972, in an article by Jean Heller of the Associated Press. Her source was Peter Buxtun, a former PHS venereal disease interviewer and one of the few whistle blowers over the years. The PHS, however, remained unrepentant, claiming the men had been "volunteers" and "were always happy to see the doctors," and an Alabama state health officer who had been involved claimed "somebody is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill."

Under the glare of publicity, the government ended their experiment, and for the first time provided the men with effective medical treatment for syphilis. Fred Gray, a lawyer who had previously defended Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King, filed a class action suit that provided a $10 million out-of-court settlement for the men and their families. Gray, however, named only whites and white organizations in the suit, portraying Tuskegee as a black and white case when it was in fact more complex than that—black doctors and institutions had been involved from beginning to end.

The PHS did not accept the media's comparison of Tuskegee with the appalling experiments performed by Nazi doctors on their Jewish victims during World War II. Yet in addition to the medical and racist parallels, the PHS offered the same morally bankrupt defense offered at the Nuremberg trials: they claimed they were just carrying out orders, mere cogs in the wheel of the PHS bureaucracy, exempt from personal responsibility.

The study's other justification—for the greater good of science—is equally spurious. Scientific protocol had been shoddy from the start. Since the men had in fact received some medication for syphilis in the beginning of the study, however inadequate, it thereby corrupted the outcome of a study of "untreated syphilis."

In 1990, a survey found that 10 percent of African Americans believed that the U.S. government created AIDS as a plot to exterminate blacks, and another 20 percent could not rule out the possibility that this might be true. As preposterous and paranoid as this may sound, at one time the Tuskegee experiment must have seemed equally farfetched. Who could imagine the government, all the way up to the Surgeon General of the United States, deliberately allowing a group of its citizens to die from a terrible disease for the sake of an ill-conceived experiment? In light of this and many other shameful episodes in our history, African Americans' widespread mistrust of the government and white society in general should not be a surprise to anyone.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762136.html

65 Years Later, America Apologized

As for your

"I will not except [sic] the kind of 'Hate-Speech' I heard out of Rev. Wrights mouth....",

it doesn't matter if you accept it or not. You don't know the difference between justified anger and hatred. No doubt you'd disapprove of any anti-Hitler rants, too.

Guess we'd better IMPEACH Hillary. Is there nothing good about her?

Just wrote that so I could write "impeach", haven't seen the word here at CD for a long time. Obviiously we have given up on that, one time major issue.

Colleen: There have been NO slaves in this country for over 200 years!! None of their children are alive! Maybe their great-great-great-grandchildren, at best!
Americans fought a Civil War to free them, remember?
I was born in 1950, walked to school, with two friends (called Negros back then the polite term)and their Uncle, across town was a teacher (at an also mixed racial school)!!

If this country owes anything to anyone, it's the Native Americans, who the original seattlers stole it from!! For that I do feel bad. (I have no native American blood, either to the best of my knowledge)
They intentionally tried (and succeed) in killing them off with diseases, gave them alcohol (which they lack the enzyem to digest)and force marched them to arid western 'holding grounds', now called reservations!
We, owe them BIG Time!

I just believe that after 200 years of freedom, and 40 years of Civil Rights, it's about time they decide to become Americans! Not Black-Americans, or African-Americans, it's about time that they start accepting some responsiblity for their own lives! Stop playing the 'all you white folk, are guilty, of discrimination, because of slavery'. Sorry I'm NOT! I don't care about color(s), but people! Who, my great-great-grandfather was is irrelevent! It's importent who I am, and what I've done! Yea, it's easier if your born rich, or talented, but are you kind??

I will not except the kind of 'Hate-Speech' I heard out of Rev. Wrights mouth, and yes, I believe anyone who went to that church again after hearing it, we're enablers! Obama hiring him to work on his campaign, it saying he approved of it! If that's okay with you, that's your right!

By the way, Black men were given the Right to Vote before women! Should I hate all men, or claim it's all their fault for anything I don't accomplish?