Many Voting For Clinton to Boost GOP
For a party that loves to hate the Clintons, Republican voters have cast an awful lot of ballots lately for Senator Hillary Clinton: About 100,000 GOP loyalists voted for her in Ohio, 119,000 in Texas, and about 38,000 in Mississippi, exit polls show.
A sudden change of heart? Hardly.
Since Senator John McCain effectively sewed up the GOP nomination last month, Republicans have begun participating in Democratic primaries specifically to vote for Clinton, a tactic that some voters and local Republican activists think will help their party in November. With every delegate important in the tight Democratic race, this trend could help shape the outcome if it continues in the remaining Democratic primaries open to all voters.
Spurred by conservative talk radio, GOP voters who say they would never back Clinton in a general election are voting for her now for strategic reasons: Some want to prolong her bitter nomination battle with Barack Obama, others believe she would be easier to beat than Obama in the fall, or they simply want to register objections to Obama.
“It’s as simple as, I don’t think McCain can beat Obama if Obama is the Democratic choice,” said Kyle Britt, 49, a Republican-leaning independent from Huntsville, Texas, who voted for Clinton in the March 4 primary. “I do believe Hillary can mobilize enough [anti-Clinton] people to keep her out of office.”
Britt, who works in financial services, said he is certain he will vote for McCain in November.
About 1,100 miles north, in Granville, Ohio, Ben Rader, a 66-year-old retired entrepreneur, said he voted for Clinton in Ohio’s primary to further confuse the Democratic race. “I’m pretty much tired of the Clintons, and to see her squirm for three or four months with Obama beating her up, it’s great, it’s wonderful,” he said. “It broke my heart, but I had to.”
Local Republican activists say stories like these abound in Texas, Ohio, and Mississippi, the three states where the recent surge in Republicans voting for Clinton was evident.
Until Texas and Ohio voted on March 4, Obama was receiving far more support than Clinton from GOP voters, many of whom have said in interviews that they were willing to buck their party because they like the Illinois senator. In eight Democratic contests in January and February where detailed exit polling data were available on Republicans, Obama received, on average, about 57 percent of voters who identified themselves as Republicans. Clinton received, on average, a quarter of the Republican votes cast in those races.
But as February gave way to March, the dynamics shifted in both parties’ contests: McCain ran away with the Republican race, and Obama, after posting 10 straight victories following Super Tuesday, was poised to run away with the Democratic race. That is when Republicans swung into action.
Conservative radio giant Rush Limbaugh said on Fox News on Feb. 29 that he was urging conservatives to cross over and vote for Clinton, their bête noire nonpareil, “if they can stomach it.”
“I want our party to win. I want the Democrats to lose,” Limbaugh said. “They’re in the midst of tearing themselves apart right now. It is fascinating to watch. And it’s all going to stop if Hillary loses.”
He added, “I know it’s a difficult thing to do to vote for a Clinton, but it will sustain this soap opera, and it’s something I think we need.”
Limbaugh’s exhortations seemed to work. In Ohio and Texas on March 4, Republicans comprised 9 percent of the Democratic primary electorate, more than twice the average GOP share of the turnout in the earlier contests where exit polling was conducted. Clinton ran about even with Obama among Republicans in both states, a far more favorable showing among GOP voters than in the early races.
Walter Wilkerson, who has chaired the Republican Party in Montgomery County, Texas, since 1964, said many local conservatives chose to vote for Clinton for strategic reasons.
“These people felt that Clinton would be maybe the easier opponent in the fall,” he said. “That remains to be seen.”
Wilkerson added, “We have not experienced any crossover of this magnitude since I can remember.”
In the Mississippi primary last Tuesday, Republicans made up 12 percent of voters who took a Democratic ballot - their biggest proportion in any state yet - and they went for Clinton over Obama by a 3-to-1 margin.
John Taylor, the GOP chairman in Madison County, said he toured various precincts and witnessed Republican voters taking Democratic ballots to vote for Clinton.
“Some people there that I recognized voting said, ‘Hey, I’m going to vote in this primary this year, right now. But don’t worry, in November I’ll be back,’ ” Taylor said. “They were going to do some damage if they could.”
Another popular conservative radio host, Laura Ingraham, who had also encouraged voters to cast ballots for Clinton, crowed about her apparent success the day after Ohio and Texas voted.
“Without a doubt, Rush, and to a lesser extent me, had some effect on the Republican turnout,” Ingraham told Fox News. “When you look at those exit polls, it is really quite striking.”
Some political blogs have suggested that the influx of Clinton-voting Republicans prevented Obama from winning delegates he otherwise would have, by inflating Clinton’s totals both statewide and in certain congressional districts. A writer for the liberal blog Daily Kos estimated that Obama could have netted an additional five delegates from Mississippi.
It is also possible, though perhaps unlikely, that enough strategically minded Republicans voted for Clinton in Texas to give her a crucial primary victory there: Clinton received roughly 119,000 GOP votes in Texas, according to exit polls, and she beat Obama by about 101,000 votes.
Not everyone casting ballots for Clinton did so primarily to sink her, however. Brent Henslee, 33, a Republican who works at a radio station in Waco, Texas, wanted to keep Clinton in the race to expose more about Obama, whom he sees as more “fluff than substance.”
“I’m not buying into all the Obama-mania, is the main reason I did it,” he said. “A lot of these people don’t know a thing about this guy and they’re crazy about him. And I thought that maybe keeping Hillary alive will just shed some more light on the guy.”
Of the nine remaining major contests, four - Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Oregon, and South Dakota - have “closed” primaries, which means only Democrats can participate.
If Republicans and conservative independents continue their tactical voting, it may be more likely in Indiana, Montana, and Puerto Rico, which allow anyone to vote, and possibly in North Carolina and West Virginia, which open their primaries to Democrats and independent voters.
“If you are a Republican you could pull a Democrat ballot and vote for the Democrat presidential candidate you think will stand the least chance of beating McCain in the fall general election,” the assistant editor of the Greene County Daily World, in southwestern Indiana, wrote in a blog post earlier this month.
Meanwhile, Clinton, despite trailing Obama in delegates, is projecting confidence about her chances as the nomination race careens toward the April 22 Pennsylvania primary. The morning after her big wins in Ohio and Texas, she was asked on Fox News whether she had a message for Limbaugh.
“Be careful what you wish for, Rush,” she said with a grin.
Scott Helman can be reached at shelman@globe.com.
© 2008 The Boston Globe
gotta love those soft-on-corruption republicans.
can’t beat ‘em?
cheat.
She is sounding more and more like an attack dog Republican these days.
Why lead when you can tear others down is her MO.
She doesn’t care about democracy and civility. She just wants power.
The fact that they are so afraid of Obama…
…makes me like him even more.
how does one define democracy and does it apply to US Presidential elections, since 2000?
They know that if Clinton is the nominee its a win win situation–they still get more republican no matter whether they vote Dem or Gop.
They would do well to examine the latest polls- currently, Clinton fairs better against McCain than Obama. Of course, things are currently so close, it would be more accurate to describe the race as neck and neck.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/national.html
This site updates regularly, so if the results have changed by the time you read it- don’t call me a liar, please!
i think they’re banking on the country being more sexist than racist—and they’re right.
one simple fact almost proves it—Hillary gets under half the women’s vote, and Obama gets 90% of the African-American vote.
It will be interesting to see what Loudmouth Limberger and his minions have to say about their plan after Hillary is President! Sometimes cute ideas come back to haunt people.
The Repugs are determined to continue ruining everything by any method possible, and they may instead just end up helping the country with their cross voting plan. It is about time they did something right.
Its interesting to see these vile republican’s voting for Clinton, just to help McInsane, just so they can see the policies of the right stay in force.
This - in the face of failure heaped upon failure of right wing idiology.
These morons hate the left more then they love America.
I really hope Obama wins the nomination, and then unleashes the flaming rhetoric of the ages against the bankrupt right’s failures to secure America as they have laid waste to our Government and robbed the middle class of their livelihoods.
It is interesting that only a month ago in our caucus in Maine, I saw at least one die hard Republican, (who I cannot ever imagine voting Democratic in her life), registered as a Democrat and voted for Obama. There is something wrong with our primary system when people can try to foul up the system like this. But personally, I doubt that they really have that much effect.
You know what makes me saddest about this… Thinking about kids in school learning about American History, and Democracy, and elections. I’m sad about the day they find that they’ve been fed a line. I’m sad about the day they learn about people like Limbaugh.
I have been saying for some time that Hillary represents salvation for the Republicans. she is uniting and invigorating their party and if she somehow wins she will be perfect for them. Conservative on war issues, but inflammatory enough on the distraction issues like gay rights and abortion that really mean nothing to power, but are used to manipulate their base.
I wasn’t sure how we were going to blow this slam dunk election, but with Democrats who should know better going around saying that a deceitful war monger like Hillary, some how is comparable to Barack obama, and now the help from Limbaugh and his ditto-head brownshirts, it’s looking pretty scary.
“…just pull their broadcast licenses.” - NRA Freedom
Chavez did nothing of the sort. What is it with Republicans? They can’t open their mouths with out lying.
If the dems were to learn the rules of the repugs, and started playing by those rules when dealing with the repugs, they might get somewhere, and even develop a backbone in the process.
Does the DNC and its superdelegates know this, or do they even care if they lose as long as the bribes keep coming?
BernieLaPaz - not calling you a liar, but polls can be compromised in the same way this primary voting can.
I don’t know if it is even the Republicans on their own because a Clinton-McCain race would be a fight between Bill Clinton’s legacy and Ronald Reagan’s legacy on a podium where politicians say the darnest things. The Republicans, left to their own devices would wish to avoid this match up - so who is pulling the Republican strings?
The base of the Republican party are highly devoted and will do everything for the party they believe in and whom their ancestors supported whole heartedly. Thus, if the mouth pieces of the Republican party tell them to vote for Hillary, they will. These are people who, a few months ago, were comforting each other by imaging all sorts of horrible things happening to Hillary Clinton, yet now they are voting for Hillary Clinton because they think it will help their party.
But those Republican mouth pieces are dummies - the ventriloquists are the Multinationals which own the media who hire these mouth pieces.
It is the Multinationals (rather the Republicans) who seem to fear Obama more than Clinton. I think that this is because they know what Clinton will and will not do in office but Obama is so new to the scene that he is an unknown (and, to be honest, unknowable) factor.
What the Republicans fear is losing their corporate funding just as they are about to face a Presidential election (it has nothing to do with who the Republicans think they can or cannot beat). The polls as to how either Clinton or Obama will do against McCain seem to be fairly even so the Republicans think that money will make the difference between winning and losing.
But if Obama was saying one thing to Canada and another to the American voters (re NAFTA) - then why do they want to get rid of him.
I don’t think his aid did say that about NAFTA - I think the aid said the same thing Obama did during the debate that he was more concerned with Mexico than Canada because of the lower environment and labour standards in Mexico and the US compared to Canada.
I think that the same Multinationals who want Clinton to beat Obama put pressure on Canada. Think of it, as soon as Dion develops a backbone, Canada is going to have an election and Harper wants a majority. He needs the media on his side and the Multinationals to stay away from the Liberals.
There are four by-elections today and if the Liberals win at least three of them, an election is a matter of weeks.
Sexist vs. Racist — oh, come on. Please! Stop the victimhood. People voting for Obama are, in large part, voting for him based on the fact that he is an inspiring leader. If you’ve read either of his books you will realize that he is a brilliant man who believes policy should be based on what works best, not what deals you work out in back rooms. People who are voting against Clinton (Republican cross-overs excepted) are voting against her based on her support for the war, her various aggressive votes (like against banning cluster bombs). Obama, following logic and compassion voted for the ban of cluster bombs.
The Sexist vs. Racist ploy is one used by people who subscribe to the Clinton and Republican tactic of dividing our country up into as many separate groups as possible… divide and conquer.
You can not divide the democratic party into tiny bits and then assemble enough votes to win anything. It requires inclusion of as many people in the party as possible.
United we stand. Divided we fall.
Obama is appealing because he is inclusive. His campaign is inclusive, his appeal is inclusive.
Whenever you hear the term Racism or Sexism regarding this campaign, it is usually tossed out by someone who wants to divide the party.
Most people with half a brain know McCain will continue Bush’s Raygun-esqe policies at full throttle, so it’s likely that either Clinton or Obama will beat him–unless another ‘terror’ event occurs (staged or otherwise) to strike fear into the majority. Clinton is clearly less ‘progressive’ than Obama, but not dramatically so in my view.
I suppose if Hillary manages to pry the nomination away from Obama via the DNC super delegates, and succeeds in reneging on agreeing to disclose her finances, and the right wing stays home in spite of it’s hatred of her and the moon turns blue, she could get away with this and we would end up with another Republican administration, no corporate money in politics reform in sight. An entrenched DLC and our young people disillusioned in democracy. But Hillary would get what she wants and all else be damned.
Perhaps all you Obama haters are unable to recognize integrity when you see it. Understandable, it’s been missing in action in the US for generations now. Remember when we could leave our bikes on the lawn, people didn’t lock their doors, and shaking hands on a business deal meant we would keep our word? Of course, you have to be pretty old to remember those days.
Obama has brought me out of the woodwork, but if he isn’t the candidate, I’m outta here. And so are a lot of young people. it isn’t just his message of change and bottom up involvement that fires them up, they are seeing something they’ve never seen in politics before. Someone who actually feels trustworthy.
A few months ago, we were laughing at the Republicans twisting in the wind and what do we have now? We have them watching Hillary destroy this party with her attacks and smears, and jumping in like collaborators to keep the catfight going. This wasn’t Obama’s idea and more than once he has asked to stick to the issues and leave off the personal attacks. But as Hillary said, she’s a fighter and he’s being forced to fight back. But at least he isn’t fighting dirty the way she is. She challenges his financing while hiding her own, and when he asks her to disclose her tax returns, as he has, she accuses him of being a “Ken Starr”. What I can’t understand is why people support her behavior. Is this what they want in a President? I don’t. When I ask them they say, “No, I don’t like what she’s doing, but that’s politics”. That’s the point, it doesn’t have to be. We can change that behavior by rejecting it. If that is what we want.
Personally I think she would make a lousy President. She has demonstrated poor judgment, bad management skills, an inability to take responsibility for mistakes and rigid attachment to failed policies. Sounds like another Bush to me, minus the Messiah complex. But that’s all right, there’s always Bill.
kathyodat
Vaudree, you’re right. Harper jumped in with a lie to support the Republicans. I hope it backfires on him.
ruscle, I like what you said about Obama. And I think he’s making entrenched power (corporations) nervous.
NRAFreedom, Chavez hasn’t opposed free speech, he closed down one station that was preaching sedition and assassination. We’re the ones without free speech. Oh sure, we nave it here on CD, but out in the public? The corporate media have a lockdown on what gets heard. And our schoolchildren don’t even know what’s in their Bill of Rights, the backbone of our democracy. But as Geo Bush said, the Constitution is just a G-damned piece of paper, and Congress is letting him prove it. And our young people are watching and all they can conclude from that is, that’s how it is. And then along comes Obama, telling them they can change things they don’t like, they aren’t powerless. And they are getting excited with possibilities.
kathyodat
Anyone like Hillary who voted for the illegal attack on Iraq should not get anyone’s votes. Both she and her lecherous husband are Republicans in Democrats’ clothing. And who is running, Bill or Hillary? He’s always on C-Span making claims about her; the latest one is that she will (miraculously) bring “millions” of jobs to America. I’m so tired of the Clintons and the Bushes. Let’s have regime change!
Why does Hillary always point at someone in the audience? She tries to make it look like everyone is agreeing with her; she just points at anyone……..ROFL
For the flip side, i.e., Hillary and proxies’ trashing Obama, look at Stephen Pizzo on Smirking Chimp or Alternet.
I have no illusions about Obama. I’m glad he’s energizing people. But make no mistake- regardless of who’s the President in 2009, this country is in deep trouble.
And that doesn’t even include a possible attack on Iran. If that happens, think world depression. Think anti-American sentiment and attacks beyond Dick Cheney’s wet dreams (oil of course).
Hillary Clinton is definitely part of the problem. 3 initials- DLC. They were as bad as the attack dogs of the Republicans with Michael Moore.
Meanwhile, Cheney, McCain, and Senators Graham and “Fifth Columnist” Joe Leiberman are trying to perfume the stench that is Iraq and the Surge that is a Scam.
Here’s a prediction. McCain-Leiberman. Karl Rove’s wet dream.
NRA: your comment about Chavez is disgraceful. Venezuela’s press is freer than that of the US. The freedom of the press in Venezuela is a matter of record and acknowledged by countless civil rights organizations. The station not renewed had transmitted false news and participated in a coup d’etat attempt. In fact, Chavez waited years after they did this to refuse to renew the license rather than suspending it when they engaged in crimes. You are spreading propaganda. Look into these things or shut up.
I didn’t think anything could make me hate Republicans more than I already do, but this is it. There’s that old saying, “Friends don’t let friends vote Republican.” I wanna change it to “Friends don’t let Republicans continue breathing.” Anyone who thinks the right-wingers who have dominated this country since 1980 are now on the wane need only look at how readily Limbaugh et al’s obedient servants obeyed their masters, and at how many of them there are. Republicans should be made unwelcome wherever they go. Run them out of neighborhoods, let them know that the immoral behavior that characterizes them will no longer be tolerated.
Folks here need no more examples of how the Corporate Media, and their attack-dogs Limbaugh & Ingraham can swing elections. (Usually in favour of their own nefarious interests.)
This is election-rigging and is blatantly in the face of the general public, yet still they slumber dreamily that this is the world’s greatest democracy in action.
Further testament of our fatally flawed and undemocratic voting system. Nothing’s going to change if we don’t fix that first.
Today Hillary Rodham Nixon was trying to critique McCain after having elevated his credentials over Obama’s.
The Clintons used all liberal organizations as well as the Democrats as their political praetorian guard, exhausting them politically, and now the daughter-in-law of PapaBush (who calls Bill his “other son”) goes around telling people it will “take another Clinton” . . . so sick of these crime families competing with each other.
Why in the name of god would anyone want to boost the gop? My god have these morons not heard how the gop has screwed the country? Do they really think more of the same will make things all ok? I am sick to death of the lemming-like, pin headed, intellectually diminutive, moronic troglidytes that are republicans. They got us here! They’re not going to get us out of the holy mess that is their making! Why the hell don’t they all just cawl back up rush limbaugh’s asshole!
The GOP voting for Hilary is strategic. They know full well that an Obama candidacy has the very real potential to trigger an electoral sweep of proportions large enough for the Democrats to gain obfuscation-proof majorities in Congress that would enable investigations with teeth into the many misdeeds of the Bush era (a prospect that frightens a lot of complicit congressional Democrats as well). With a Clinton candidacy, they actually have a chance to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. And if the Republicans do lose versus Clinton in November, the magnitude of the loss is likely to be much less, thus giving the GOP enough seats in Congress to enable legislative stalling tactics.
hakori,
The Republicans band together come hell or high water. Yes, it is amazing that they still are beholden to Bush & Co. when it is painfully obvious that the Illegal Occupation of Iraq financially is sinking this country. Keep in mind that these are people who would like to canonize Reagan. What they also do not realize is that someone jiggled the handle on the toilet and we are starting to go down. If people think the FED’s action to get rich off the subprime mess er provide relief for people who are losing everything (sorry, my bad), they have not seen anything yet.
deang, I agree that the Repuk party desrves to be disbanded but you would have to disband both capitalist parties simultaneously. It’s not so easy when most Americans are still asleep so the best approach is to aid the capitalists in their self-destruction. The good news is that Americans are showing signs of waking. This indicates that perhaps another eight years of Imperial Chimp will bring them to finally join the progressive revolution. This is why O’Bama isn’t a good candidate - he threatens to provide the capitalists eight years of protection from themselves to aid their recovery. Not good. The other two candidates may serve as excellent Imperial Chimps - what we want for a quicker implosion of the capitalist establishment and a quicker progressive revolution.
Whatever happens, most Republicans are still slimy folks.
I don’t think the party will last many more years.
I don’t understand why some decent people still remain in that party. It does seem like it takes some Americans a long time figure out the truth.
This is really an issue about psychology.
When enough people are scared, when they have been led to believe that they are in harm’s way and that only a few “right thinking people” can save them, they will do almost anything, including crossing the line of integrity and honesty and political parties.
That powerful people use the frightened masses as foot soldiers to further their agendas is an old story. The more we understand how we are being manipulated and just how manipulative our entire culture is, the more we will be able to recognize it and stand up to it.
In New Jersey you have to declare a party. You can only vote in your declared primary. Why isnt this the standard? I’m sure that if I research this law, I will find that a Republican governor put it into place so us liberals wouldnt try to sabatoge the election. Ironic isnt it?
I used to like the Clintons, now with the behavior Hillary has displayed during the campaign, that of a meglomaniac hungry for power, where her concern should be the same as ours, putting a dem in the whitehouse, for her its all about the power. She would rather Mccain get in than Obama. So that she could run against him in 2012. Sick bitch.
“This is why O’Bama isn’t a good candidate - he threatens to provide the capitalists eight years of protection from themselves to aid their recovery. Not good”
All the king’s horses & all the king’s men.
There is no putting the toothpaste back in the tube.
Obama is like a constitutional monarchist at the end of the age of kings, still committed emotionally to an order & seeking his best to restrain the outlaw, while history is sharpening the guillotine blades.
Obama is the sort of necessary counterpart to revolution, produced in the official political structure & putting the best face possible on the bankruptcy of a structure he’s not ready to abandon. Such a transitional personage, rather than ppostponing revolution, actually forwards it in spite of his own intentions.
NateW, you are exactly right. The worst of it is, Hillary knows all this, she knows she has no coattails, but she DOESN’T CARE! All she cares about is getting elected. This isn’t about what’s good for the country or the Democratic party, it’s about getting what she wants. And just think how rich the Clintons can get with Bill running all over the world with his wife as President. That $60 million will be chump change. They can’t wait, and they will stop at nothing to get what they want. Helps to explain why no tactic is too low or dirty for her to use.
kathyodat
They are picking the only DEM candidate they can count on defeating - and the Dems continue to go full tilt for the cliff.
RE: - Vaudree, you’re right. Harper jumped in with a lie to support the Republicans. I hope it backfires on him.
Yeah. I am going back and forth between two theories and not sure which one is right:
1. Supporting Clinton keeps the race going and keeping the race going is the goal for the Republicans;
2. The Multinationals, rather than the Republicans, don’t want Obama facing McCain and securing funding is the goal for the Republicans;
RE: - In New Jersey you have to declare a party. You can only vote in your declared primary. Why isnt this the standard?
In Canada, you don’t have to declare a party to vote - all you have to do is show up on voting day with ID. But you have to be a card carrying member of a party to vote for its leader - which is usually done on a single day at convention.
Heard anything about Take Back America?
Jack Layton seems to have faith in both Obama and Clinton - Layton and Jesse Jackson are supposed to be meeting up with Clinton and Obama:
Layton to push NAFTA reform message in Washington
NDP Leader Jack Layton is in Washington today to press for changes to the North American Free Trade Agreement.
Layton is speaking at the ‘Take Back America 2008′ conference, a gathering of grassroots and netroots activists, elected officials, business owners and policy experts of the progressive movement.
In an interview with The Globe and Mail, Layton said the NDP wants to unite with U.S. Democratic presidential hopefuls Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama in their calls for changes to NAFTA.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080317/layton_washington_080317/20080317?hub=Canada
Remarks by NDP leader Jack Layton
Take Back America 2008 conference
Washington D.C. (snippets)
During the debate in the lead-up to the Ohio and Texas primary, both Senators Clinton and Obama stated unequivocally the need for improvements to NAFTA.
I am here today to tell each and every one of you, and Senators Clinton and Obama that you have an ally in Canada to improve the labour and environmental standards in the North America Free Trade Agreement. …
During the debate in the lead-up to the Ohio and Texas primary, both Senators Clinton and Obama stated unequivocally the need for improvements to NAFTA.
I am here today to tell each and every one of you, and Senators Clinton and Obama that you have an ally in Canada to improve the labour and environmental standards in the North America Free Trade Agreement.
We have before us an historic opportunity…
…an opportunity to build.
To forge a new coalition in North America.
So that when it comes to labour and environmental standards in North America – our trade rules ensure a reach for the top, not a race to the bottom.
Where the rights of the citizen, rival those of the corporation.
Where hard work is rewarded and polluters are punished.
And where the middle class can be assured fairness and future generations can be assured a clean and sustainable environment.
And my friends…work is underway.
The New Democratic Party has begun to reach out to the US Democratic Party.
Elected representatives from Canada, Mexico and the US led by Ohio Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur have launched a “Task Force on Renegotiating NAFTA.”
http://www.ndp.ca/page/6279
Good one Dichterfreund. But what’s the alternative?
kathyodat, here is the revolution of which you speak - and, to reign, guess who is calling the toon but the peasants:
Like Clinton and Obama, Layton seeks NAFTA changes
DANIEL LEBLANC
March 17, 2008, Globe and Mail
OTTAWA — The NDP is joining U.S. Democratic presidential hopefuls in their promise to change NAFTA, with Leader Jack Layton telling an American audience today the trade agreement needs to better protect workers and the environment.
In an interview, Mr. Layton said the New Democratic Party wants to join forces with the likes of U.S. Senators Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, who are pledging to change the North American free-trade agreement in the Democratic nomination race.
“There are many Canadians who agree. Certainly the Democratic Party has long advocated that the environmental and labour standards in NAFTA be improved,” Mr. Layton said.
Mr. Layton will bring his message to the Take Back America 2008 conference in Washington being presided over by the Campaign for America’s Future, a movement of U.S. progressives.
Speaking to an audience of politicians, unionists and environmental groups, the NDP Leader will state that corporations have too much power under NAFTA and that workers in areas such as manufacturing and forestry need better protection.
“There is no question that given the integration agenda of the corporate sector, we find that all too often the working people are being left behind, working longer and harder and slipping back,” he said.
Mr. Layton said his party has credibility in the fight to renegotiate NAFTA, given that the Conservative government is not acting on the file and that the Liberals failed to deliver on their 1993 campaign promise to change the agreement..
Mr. Layton said that in current circumstances, Canada’s economy is at risk.
“Right across the country I see concerns, real worries about how rapidly our energy resources are being locked in to supply the U.S. market without necessarily being available should there be a depletion of the resource,” he said.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080317.NAFTA17/TPStory/?query=layton
It’s over - and McCain has won. Hillary is the most hated woman (if not person) in the US - and deservedly so. She was an enthusiastic supporter of her husband’s murderous policies in Iraq, Serbia, and in the US with his Welfare Reform. She’s mean and she shows it.
Obama’s minister is now a huge issue. I think he’s too smart to really believe in the bible, but he wasn’t smart enough to get out of a church whose minister sings ‘God Damn America’ in time to look like he was righteously indignant about it. Once it really gets out, Obama is done for.
Neither of them can win against McCain. The one candidate who polled as a winner against any of the Republicans was Edwards - and he was fortuitously (for the Republicans and other elitists) drummed out early.
Good luck to all of them. I think I’ll vote for a black woman - Cynthia McKinney, since niether of the two lesser evils has a chance anyway.
Geez, you Americans have one screwed up electoral system! I can’t believe the stuff that goes on under the guise of US, so-called, elections. The Electoral College is such an outdated and costly way of getting someone into office. Different rules for different States, crossover votes, vote rigging, programmable voting machines, caging lists, etc., etc. You sound more and more like what you used to call a banana republic with each passing year. How about some real electoral reform so you, the people, can actually vote for the people that you really want to have in office. One vote, one time.
Adrienrain, Obama’s minister was fair game - but think of it - they went through all the guy’s sermons word for word trying to find something damaging and THAT was the best they could find!
Think of it, if someone went back through everything we have ever posted in the last five years they would find worse dirt on each of us.
If Jack Layton has faith in Obama, maybe it is time I do too. Jack’s letter to Obama:
I have heard you say: “I believe in trade, I just want to make sure that the rules of the road apply to everybody and they are fair and that they reflect the interests of workers and not just corporate profits.”
I could not agree more.
Jack’s letter to Clinton:
I have heard you say: “Let’s get real about the future of trade in this country, let’s get real about NAFTA. It simply isn’t working for all Americans. I am not just going to talk about what is wrong with NAFTA. I am going to fix it.”
These are encouraging words.
http://www.ndp.ca/page/6236
vaudree, I think both of your theories are correct.
tarasa, you got that right. I’ve been thinking we look like a banana republic for some time now, and that’s now including our working class.
I liked the line from SiCKO, when an American living in France said “In France, the government is afraid of the people; in America, the people are afraid of the government”. Well actually, since I live in America, there’s nothing to like about that line.
kathyodat
Here, here, ruscle! (12:49 pm )
The idea that it’s now a ‘women’ against ‘blacks’ race is absurd–and perfectly rovian! If hillary can’t garner votes (from dems, that is) on her record or her beliefs, why should we care?!
It’s now clear that obama is fighting a war on two fronts: the republicans (i.e., traitors to the constitution, violators of ethics like limbaugh) and the hillary democrats. As someone said earlier, it makes you root for him even more.
Rubbish. The right simply wanted to make the only electable Democrat, Clinton, a hate figure in liberal circles. They succeeded. Americans get democracy wrong again.
orwell understood the british (and american) culture well when he created his fictional two minute hate. i see the object of your hatred today is hillary rodham clinton. fortunately, your hatred is nothing new to her. she was tempered by right wing republican hatred for no good reason in the 1990’s, and she can weather your left wing hatred as well.
i hope she does become the nominee so that she can show us what a good administrator looks like. a lot of people have forgotten. and i wish she would focus more on her economic ideas, whose time is ripe.
vaudree, Pat Robertson called for the assassination of Chavez. How come that was no big deal? Oh yeah, because he wasn’t talking about America the Great. Way too many people still think we’re the most wonderful benevolent country on earth. And way too many people are still hoping we will “win” this occupation of Iraq and not be losers. For them, it’s all about winning and losing. They need to grow up. It’s tragic how totally uninformed people are about what we’re really doing out there. And Obama’s minister is right. Our international behavior is obscene, Obama knows it, and is forced to pretend it isn’t or get crucified by the corporate media. What a sick joke.
I don’t think the Republicans can do any more damage to him than Hillary’s done. And we will see if he can bounce back from that. He has gone down in the polls, thanks to her smears, we will see where things go from there. He’s fighting back, but not throwing shit like she is.
kathyodat
“i hope she does become the nominee so that she can show us what a good administrator looks like. a lot of people have forgotten. and i wish she would focus more on her economic ideas, whose time is ripe.”
mary lou,
You may want Clinton to be the nominee, but so do the Republicans. Rightfully or not, she carries way too much baggage for many Americans and the odds are very long for her. If she is the nominee, then we most likely will get McCain and his hundred year war.
Also, while she may be a good administrator, I don’t think the present time calls for that. We need someone who can coalesce the American people (well, at least a critical mass) and Hillary is not the one to do that.
Hillary Clinton is smart, but apparently not very wise. If she were, she would do what is best for her party and her country.
“And Obama’s minister is right. Our international behavior is obscene, Obama knows it, and is forced to pretend it isn’t or get crucified by the corporate media. What a sick joke.”
Jeez, I watched part of the minister’s speech. Can’t find much to fault with it either.
Everywhere I turn I hear very ardent Obama supporters speaking / writing about Hillary Clinton with the same irrational hatred and arrogance I hear from a “typical” ardent Bush supporter. Regardless of your party affiliation, she seems to be the go-to target for your venom. 90% of the posts for this article are from a rabid group of politico-masturbators full of the same shit - be it left or right.
What a joke. The fact that this article appears here at all means “mission accomplished” - more infighting, more spittle.
Get your heads out of your asses! The election will still be months away after the nomination is finished. Plenty of time to regroup. Vote your conscience and let others do the same without your whining. You fucking idiots.
KaneJeeves, I agree with you. This is absolutely pathetic!
Also, I thought when someone “crosses over” they have to sign a statement at the time that they are committed to their new party?!
I could not detest Limbutt more if I tried!
Nobody wanted to take Kucinich seriously, huh?
“The election will still be months away after the nomination is finished. Plenty of time to regroup. Vote your conscience and let others do the same without your whining.”
Hey, I’m with you - vote your conscience. I’ve just come to realize that there is a cost and you should be prepared to pay it.
My conscience: Obama or McKinney.
Another time, another year, you’ll see everyone on the left doing exactly the same thing.
Picture a year where the Dem nominee is already decided, but a challenger is giving the Republican front-runner a hard time. You’ll see everyone on the left bragging about how they ‘crossed-over’ and tried to put a monkey wrench in the other party.
So, to me this whole debate is hypocritical nonsense.
Besides, these are the rules. These states have ‘open’ primaries. This is the way it works. Deal with it.
———–
Anyone remember the classic advertising adage … “there’s no such thing as bad publicity.” Think of the way Obama and Clinton are dominating the news right now and all the ‘publicity’ they are getting. That’s a good thing. The stupidest thing the Republicans could do is to drag this out further. By doing this, they’ve pretty much assured that Obama and Clinton will dominate the news from now to the convention.
If the Dem nomination was over, then the corporate media would shift to general election mode where McCain would be on the news every night and every crazy utterance would be fawned over as if it was the greatest nugget of wisdom. Meanwhile, the constant attacks and jibes at the Democratic nominee would begin.
The fact that this is going on and on and on is the greatest blessing the Dems could have. It keeps their candidates in the news, and McCain has to work hard to even get his name on the news (see trip to Iraq). Remember, there’s no such thing as bad publicity. Its better to have your name in the news as a candidate than to not have your name in the news.
“How about some real electoral reform…”
The Dems have a majority in both houses of Congress, so what have they done with this issue?
Nothing of course is the answer. They like the same corrupt system that’s easily rigged and that blocks alternatives. The Dems are as adept at rigging it as the Rethugs, and the only important thing to the Dems in 2006 was that they could then go to the lobbyists and say ‘pay us now!’
Like with everything else, if you want reform, voting Dem is not the answer.
“Like with everything else, if you want reform, voting Dem is not the answer.”
COMarc,
You make a valid point, and I agree to an extent. The Democratic Party has whored itself out and most can see this.
The thing is, I think there is a small opportunity at this point to harness a lot of young energy that is going with Obama. If Obama wins, hopefully that energy will carry through after the election and some reform can happen. It will be up to the elders to keep the light on and lend a hand. I am slightly hopeful that something might change if this happens.
If this doesn’t happen, if the Democrats continue to whore themselves and another generation is suckered, then I will withdraw to my garden and tend to my planting. There will be nothing left to do.
wrong comarc: crossing over disingenuously is a class four felony in ohio…it’s AGAINST the rules
mary lou: you’re right with Klinton, the trains vill run on time… perhaps we should tap old Alexander Haig. Is he still alive? I always thought he’d be an effective administrator.
FACT: There are at least ten percent of the GOP that LOVE RON PAUL and I know plenty more that abhor Bush… refused to vote for him in ‘04. There is a VERY REAL REPUBLICAN ANTIWAR SENTIMENT. Those are Obama supporters too. The other crossovers are documented above.
Ya’all should get out more and talk to your neighbors.
With the economy going the way it is, I think people would vote Chelsea over McCain.
Don’t think there’s much to worry about when the country is sliding this bad economically, but I won’t underestimate the American electorate.
Vaudree (March 17th, 2008 12:43 pm) wrote: “It is the Multinationals (rather the Republicans) who seem to fear Obama more than Clinton. I think that this is because they know what Clinton will and will not do in office but Obama is so new to the scene that he is an unknown (and, to be honest, unknowable) factor.”
Good points in your post, Vaudree. Hillary Clinton is a proud member in good standing of the Democratic Leadership Council — AKA ‘Republican Lite’ — and she’s received more corporate campaign donations this election than any other candidate, Dem or Republican. I think it’s telling that Clinton’s campaign manager, Mark Penn, draws a paycheck from the same parent company as senior McCain advisor and lobbyist Charlie Black. The ‘Corprocracy’ doesn’t really care, in my view, whether McCain or Clinton is elected: their interests will be protected, as well as their tax cuts. Obama is a wild card though, since he doesn’t take money from lobbyists or PACs and has sponsored and passed laws to make government more transparent and ethical. I think his sudden jump to the front of the Dem pack shocked the Plutocrats, and now they are pulling out the stops to secure the nomination for Hillary. (Hence our corporately-owned trying to make Jeremiah Wright Obama’s vice president.)
One way to look at all of this ‘cross-voting’ is that it reveals the desperation of the Republican Party and the weakness of McCain’s candidacy. The right-wing media audience is dwindling — Bill O’Reilly has lost more than a million viewers since 2005 and King Rush himself is being beaten in some markets by Air America Radio — and the Republicans are saddled with abject failure on all fronts — the economy, foreign wars, the housing crisis, jobs, a president who can’t avoid his foot with his mouth, you-name-it — and I don’t think even another terrorist attack would bring the majority back into the fold — why wouldn’t Americans just as well angrily wonder why the GOP didn’t protect them better after all of the extraordinary measures the Bush Adminstration has put in place to, allegedly, fight terrorism?
As this article by Eric Lotke at the Campaign for America’s Future lays out, the American right-wing is collapsing under the weight of its own delusions, false promises, and incompetence. (Read “Conservatism is Dying” here:
http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/conservatism-dying-old-age-ill-health-and-neglect )
The question is: are we going to have DLC-Dem Hillary retarding progress on behalf of the corporate interests that have invested in her campaign, or Barack Obama who, accepting his flaws as a ‘perfect progressive,’ is the better option for starting us down the path to reclaiming our government and our indepedence from multi-national corporations?
BTW, Vaudree, I didn’t realize Canada was that close to new elections. Good luck with getting rid of the noxious Harper.
Maybe Obama will sweep the nation with a significant vote count victory, uncontestable, but the GOP figure with Clinton the vote may be close enough to let Diebold do the rest to pull in McCain. A paranoid moment.
I must live in a different America. I heard a lot of hateful talk about him, about his race, about him supposedly being a Muslim, how he must be a trained terrorist - before the news broke about his minister. I work with a bunch of xenophobic right-wingers, they were practically foaming at the mouth today. Obama as the Democratic nominee would tear this country apart. I don’t see him beating McCain, if he did, he’d be lucky to survive til inauguration day. I’m so sick of all the ugliness…..
Yes! The Republican “dittoheads”, as Rush used call his followers, believe the war in Iraq is a wonderful thing. Iran is next! The ones who don’t are starting to say the Democrats started it! We are the good guys and we are saving the Iraqis! Obama tells them they are wrong (uppity!)and will probably deal with the obscene tax cuts Bush gave the very wealthy and corporations.
Its obscene selfishness. A retiree with a pension, investments, and social security will vote for the Republicans to save his $1000 +/- per year tax cut even though he knows the deficit is bankrupting us.
A single issue antiabortionist will vote Republican because they tell him they will somehow magically change the Constitution or the courts, and he doesn’t give a flying f##k how many children have died in Iraq.
A doctor owning a multi million dollar practice will vote Republican because he gets to cry about the insurance money while he makes a fortune. Who knows what insurance reform might bring, and who cares about the uninsured, the war in Iraq or global warming? I’ve got mine!
We live in a very selfish country and the Repubs pander to that. They can do anything they want as long as their (expletive omitted) constituents get what they want. It isn’t just the big corporations. We live in a fat know nothing country that seems totally clueless about the multiple disasters we are creating.
I think the crossover voters are afraid of Obama. There is a Clinton track record and things weren’t too bad when Bill was president He pandered to the selfishness too. Obama is something of an unknown.
gingkofig said: Everywhere I turn I hear very ardent Obama supporters speaking / writing about Hillary Clinton with the same irrational hatred and arrogance I hear from a “typical” ardent Bush supporter. Regardless of your party affiliation, she seems to be the go-to target for your venom. 90% of the posts for this article are from a rabid group of politico-masturbators full of the same shit - be it left or right.
What a joke. The fact that this article appears here at all means “mission accomplished” - more infighting, more spittle.
Get your heads out of your asses! The election will still be months away after the nomination is finished. Plenty of time to regroup. Vote your conscience and let others do the same without your whining. You fucking idiots.
Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The war is a wonderful thing as long as the troop I’m supporting is someone else’s kid.
Voting for Clinton to boost GOP?
Scott, your article is another blatant attempt to taint Hillary’s candidacy with the same personal attacks used so successfully by the GOP.
The fact is we have no way of knowing how Republicans voted in the Democratic primary – in my conversations with my Republican friends they believe Hillary (and Bill) to be a stronger candidate against McCain.
In Virginia where I live I can report knowing of Republicans that voted for Obama because they want McCain to win. They ‘know’ that America is too racist to vote a black candidate into the White House.
And perhaps that is why Limbaugh rushed to ’support’ Hillary. In a single stroke he pissed off the progressives against Hillary and with a wink let his listeners know that she was the real target. They know the code.
But given the recent negative press for the Obama campaign due to his Pastor’s sermons Rush may have been too late.
The biased media hoopla attacking the Pastors comments and Obama is occurring despite the MSN’s effort to go easy on their scrutiny of him while savage in their attacks of Hillary.
This problem for Obama is not something Hillary’s fabled attack machine cooked up.
It was Obama’s own words that called media attention to his Church and Pastor (no - it was not Ferraro) and as a consequence he is dealing with a white racist backlash surely to have been part of the GOP ’swift-boating’ by McCain during the Presidential campaign.
Unfortunately for the GOP the racist dam broke a bit early and it is now giving Hillary a real chance to win the Democratic primary.
Oh please. Let everyone vote for the opposite of who they’d want in the White House and leave them to it. The Republicans who vote for Obama because they think a black man can’t be elected and those who think Hillary can’t be elected, or those who actually think either of those two candidates are better than McCain. Let them chase their own tails. We can’t actually know the truth except by anecdote, and that is no truth at all.
I am somewhat surprised that so many here would believe this article, it’s bullshit. So was Rush “Lim-baws” comments. It’s a designed ploy and tactic used by the Gop “rat fu##ers”, which is a vulgar term they use for dirty political tactics. It is not Obama the GOP fears as an opponent, It’s Clinton.
And ~Learnfromthepast~, you are right on.
Maybe most of you haven’t heard about the Obama campaign policy of instructing people how to be “Democrats for a Day” to vote in primaries, or participate in caucuses. Happening now in PA, has happened in Texas and elsewhere. In Texas the instructions were particularly anti-Clinton, and aimed at Republicans: basically let’s get rid of Clinton by supporting Obama. So lots of his support is temporarily crossing over Republicans and Independents that have no intention of voting for him if he gets the nomination.
The contempt for Clinton is based upon her inhumane, extensive voting record. It is a reasoned and fact based disdain for the corporate lobbyist dominated DNC. People want AWAY from it.
People that are honestly dissuaded by these smear tactics are few… really.
Republicans will vote Republican in November and that’s that. No real Democrat or anti-War Republican is going to be deeply effected by all this hullabaloo in the General Election. This is all about the primary… They’ll ramp it up for the General but it will have negligible effect this time.
Think thousands of dead and injured… think Trillions in debt… think homeless, formerly middle class people, unable to take THEIR kids to the doctor.
Whether or not Obama’s Pastor is more feisty and divisive than the Christio-zionist backers of McCain is going to be utterly silly after the Convention.
I DO see the inroads that the xenophobe Dodd has made into the minds of Democrats, and frankly… THAT is alarming.
“I must live in a different America…”
No, you live in the “real” Amerikkka. Those are the things that the public is saying at the moment.
Unfortunately, the heavy hitting is only getting started.
This forum here represents a slice of the “left”, and the acrimony and divisiveness is highly palpable where there should be unity in, and clarity of purpose.
It will be a rough ride, but perhaps, as others have stated, it is best time for this boat to sink. It has inflicted too much damage upon the world.
I suspect this corporate media piece is a response (pro-Obama of course) to Wayne Barrett’s extensive piece on the extensive right wing support for Obama– http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0811,374100,374100,2.html
Before you all carry on like the useful idiots you are, you might want to read it. Here’s a key excerpt:
“Sixteen of the 45 Democratic primaries and caucuses held before this week were open affairs, allowing Republicans and independents to take part, and Barack Obama has won 11 of those contests. He almost invariably carried the Republican vote, which accounted for as much as 9 percent of the total in Wisconsin and Texas, and frequently ran even stronger among independents, who represented a fifth or more of Democratic primary voters in state after state. The 75 percent of the Republican vote that he won in Missouri, for example, may have pushed him over the top, and certainly, when combined with his 67 percent of the state’s much larger independent vote, it delivered many of the district-apportioned delegates to him. Republicans in Obama states like Washington, Wisconsin, and Virginia were even freer to cross the aisle, since by the time they voted, John McCain had already sewn up the GOP nomination. While Obama often won some of these states so handily that Republicans and independents could not have provided his margin of victory, there is no way to know how many delegates in close congressional-district contests will wind up in Denver because of the impact of Republican or independent voters. And there is no exit-poll data to measure their impact on the caucuses.”
Yes, apparently in the minds of many posting here today (nearly all convinced Obama is uniquely chaste among politicians) a republican vote for Obama comes from the heart, whereas a republican vote for Clinton comes from further south.
annika - I object to your choice of ‘idiots’ but you make me laugh.
“Before you all carry on like the useful idiots you are, you might want to read it. Here’s a key excerpt:”
Perhaps watching that capitalist training cartoon ‘Thomas and Friends’ with my kids is good for my humor
So is this what Obama learned from the Great Communicator? The simpler the message the more loyal the followers.
Thanks for the link!
Watch The Hour (cbc.ca/thehour) tonight (video should be up in a few hours) because there is a very funny piece in the news section (half way through) about Rapper DMX and Obama:
RE: - vaudree, Pat Robertson called for the assassination of Chavez. How come that was no big deal? Oh yeah, because he wasn’t talking about America the Great. Way too many people still think we’re the most wonderful benevolent country on earth.
Kathyodat, I thought it was because the Americans were so successful in their many attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro. On the CBC, there was some talk of whether the show violated CTRC (ie FCC) guidelines because of the call to off someone. CTV was honest for the reason why Pat Robertson, an American comic, figured democratically elected Chavez should be offed:
Robertson, 75, told a Monday broadcast of “The 700 Club” that U.S. operatives should consider “taking him out,” saying it would be “cheaper than starting a war, and I don’t think any oil shipments will stop.” …
Robertson said Chavez is “a dangerous enemy to our south, controlling a huge pool of oil, that could hurt us badly.”
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20050824/Pat_Robertson_050823/20050824/
Assassination has been a policy of both the Dems and Repugs for at least the last couple decades if not longer and neither is going to point a dirty finger at the other over this issue. Does Nader ever speak out on this issue?
Sicko simplifies things. If you wish to privatized something, you can either starve it so that people will stop fighting to save it or do so when no one is looking (disaster capitalism style) - Paul Martin and Stephen Harper have done both.
RE: - It’s now clear that obama is fighting a war on two fronts: the republicans (i.e., traitors to the constitution, violators of ethics like limbaugh) and the hillary democrats.
Diana, the same can be said of Clinton fighting a war on two fronts - the whole thing resembles Chinese checkers right now.
RE: - Hillary Clinton is a proud member in good standing of the Democratic Leadership Council — AKA ‘Republican Lite’ — and she’s received more corporate campaign donations this election than any other candidate, Dem or Republican.
I don’t like Clinton and the Pug-lite comment seems fairly consistent in that she definitely doesn’t represent the Wellstone branch of the party. But Corporations do try to influence the winner. That said, the longer the Dem race continues, there more money both Clinton and Obama will have to spend fighting each other rather than fighting Repugs. McCain isn’t spending any Repug money right now - his world trip is being funded at taxpayer expense.
RE: - BTW, Vaudree, I didn’t realize Canada was that close to new elections. Good luck with getting rid of the noxious Harper.
Canada has a Minority government so they have been minutes away from the start of an election for over a year and a half. If the NDP, Bloc and Liberals (aka the chicken shits) voted together on a Confidence Motion they can bring down the government and Canada would have another election. If the Liberals win 3/4 by-elections, they will cooperate with the NDP and Bloc and bring down the government at the very next opportunity. If they win only 1 or 2, the Liberals will continue to prop up the Harper government. Check cbc.ca or ctv.ca around pm central and you will have your answer.
I looked at your article - brings back memories of that Blackout that hit Ontario and a few American states a few years back.
RE: - Think thousands of dead and injured… think Trillions in debt… think homeless, formerly middle class people, unable to take THEIR kids to the doctor.
Not even to a walk-in free of charge to get the ear drops or the amoxicilian! Come on! It can’t be that bad.
RE: - I DO see the inroads that the xenophobe Dodd has made into the minds of Democrats, and frankly… THAT is alarming.
There are many legitimate reasons to disagree with Lou Dobbs, but Dobbs is unhappy with NAFTA - which is a good thing that should be exploited:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_MR7tL7tWs
Scott Helman thanks for letting me in on the dirty little secret americans don’t honestly express their opinions in the polls (as though americans honestly expressed their opinions about anything - seems one of the prerequisites of capitalism is secrecy). as a nation we’ve watched too many game shows like let’s make a deal and the price is right.
personally i think clinton/mccain yields quite a bit of entertainment value but i’m starting to see hope of some serious humor w/ an obama candidacy…
(satire on)
lets cash in before the election shall we….. join cnn in 8 days when we unmask the real rev wright, the comments we didn’t hear a couple of months ago. rev wright slamming poor little whites CEO’s and former slave owners….. then straight from SAN ANTONIO recent revelations revealed from haggee’s book published 2 years ago. hitler went to catholic schools (and the pope is german.. connect the dots folks). this summer before the conventions, CNN brings you the important debate moderated by john king, the debate america wants to hear - the ideological standard bearers of malcom x (if he was a christian) and john birch. the economy, the occupation of iraq these issues are secondary folks it’s hagee on wright only on CNN…CNN welcomes both republican and democratic viewers… don’t miss it… back to our new commentator geraldine ferraro……
(satire off)
…peace….
No, gingkofig, Obama is not uniquely chaste, that’s reserved for Kucinich. but he does energize the young people and he refuses to resort to the slime tactics of the Clintons or accept lobbyist money, which is Hillary’s main financial pipeline. Consider the old adage “follow the money”. She’s a DLC founder, who needs more of that? Bill Clinton accelerated the migration of ntional wealth to the richest Americans, and the Clintons are now part of that group and obviously intent on increasing their take. Hillary refuses to release her tax returns, first time I’ve heard of a candidate doing that, but I could be wrong. And when Obama challenges her to do it, she screams “Ken Starr!”
It’s amazing to me that all you Hillary apologists have no problem with her behavior. Is this the model we want to set for young people, to look the other way when politicians use lies and smears about their opponents and cheat and lie about their own finances? They’re howling about Obama involved with Rezko in buying a house, what a can of worms would be opened if the Clinton finances were made public. Fat chance of that happening. Don’t tell me they made $60 million in 7 years selling autobiographies and giving talks.
I’m sure Republicans had their own reasons for voting for either candidate, but my own family and friends know Republicans who told them they are disgusted with the Republican party and are planning to vote for Obama for President because they like his message. Same with independents. And he has coattails, something we will need. Hillary has neither. And she’s not making friends with her bloody war on Obama. Of course Clinton loyalists don’t care what she does. But if she manages to win, they will find out what she will do. Pick everybody’s pockets. like Bill did.
kathyodat
RSJ and cranky_chatter, you are both right with your posts. Thank you for speaking out.
now i’m a ‘hillary apologist”? thanks for the spittle kathodat.
gingko, what do you call yourself? And do you approve of Hillary’s behavior?
kathyodat
this is silly kathy, i won’t label myself. i voted for clinton both times, gore and kerry after that. hate me for it. it doesn’t matter. what i’m uncomfortable with, and feel compelled to ridicule, is this rigid fervor that makes one feel justified in hating - actually hating! - the other fellow because he doesn’t think like you. or labeling them or marginalizing them. i haven’t read any of obama’s books. he’s certainly an exceptional man. its not him i’m really focusing my energy on with these posts. its his followers. there’s something frightening about people that write posts with such authoritative sounding proclamations about the evil of one side or the other.
what a mess it all is - our political system. its corporatization, the flaws of the lobby, the comical sense that there is actually a difference between left and right. it feels hopeless.
this is rambling i know but if you want to change peoples minds, don’t preach at them. don’t label them or come across like you’re here to save them from their own ignorance.
i’m rolling over now - you want to make another obama convert? i’ll be your experiment. tell me what to read and where to look. but you won’t make me hate hillary.
The reason the bastards are voting for her, is because Obama scares the hell out of them. The very idea of a “colored” president freaks them out. So Rush Limbaugh tells his sheep to vote for Hilary.
Neither Hilary or McCain will rock their precious (and dreadfully F’d up) boat, so they’re voting for the monster to keep the colored man out of the way.
Also, sadly many women are emotionally thrilled by the idea of having a woman president - even though Hilary is Tweedle Dee in a skirt, and McCain is TweedleDum.
kathyodat one day at a time
It’s mysterious eh?
The reason they seem so unreasonable… so crazy and wildly illogical… so intractable… so abjectly loyal, as if Clinton were Bush and they were Republicans… is that they’re real reasons are unspeakable.
They don’t like black people. They’re afraid of black people.
It’s that simple. I’ve been observing it for years. More often Southerners are far more teachable than Northerners; that are often only second or third generation Americans. They have no cultural affinity for African American people. They’re incapable of getting past it.
There’s no reason to talk to them sometimes.
Beforkids__ What basis do you have for stating (8:16)that if Hillary gets in we will get our pockets picked like Bill did?
Seems to me that he did just the opposite by raising taxes on the well off which was not appreciated. You may be one of those that got hit which means you are in good shape.
Everyone forgets (or never knew) that Clinton came in after Bush 1 had created a big budget deficit and every year for eight years the budget was improved until the last few years we had a budget surplus and talked of paying down the national debt. I don`t call that picking our pockets.
Part of the reason Clinton did a good job with our economy is that he picked his cabinet and advisors on ability instead of the Bush method of vetting them according to religious views.
gingkofig, I don’t hate anyone, not even Bush. But some people behave in ways that are unacceptable to me. That includes Hillary and Bush. I’ve only voted for 2 Democrats in my life, LBJ who lied and McGovern who betrayed Eagleton. After that I promised myself i would never again hold my nose to vote for someone. Obama is the first Democrat since then who actually might get elected that I wouldn’t have to hold my nose to vote for.
I appreciate your willingness to learn more about him. The more I learn about him the better I like him. And I don’t hate anyone on this site. One of my best friends here is a Hillary supporter. He’s open about it, he doesn’t like some of the things she does, but he doesn’t trust Obama. Well, I can’t say I know Obama well enough to trust him but what I’ve read from his past, I’m willing to take a chance on him. I’m even willing to bet on him. Normally I only make sure bets, but these are trying times and I have a strong feeling about his sense of ethics and progressivism.
Obama has repeatedly asked Hillary to join him in running a positive campaign, not talking about each other, but about themselves and the issues. She’s not interested.
gingko, below are the first links I read about Obama. Since then I’ve picked up information piecemeal. Such as, when Alice Palmer invited him to run for the state Senate seat she was vacating to run for the US Congress, he told her he didn’t want to set up an organization and have her come back and change her mind. She assured him it wouldn’t happen. But when she lost the primary, that’s exactly what she did. He didn’t back down and agonized over his advisers’ telling him to challenge her petition signatures for the ballot. He ended up doing that, but didn’t feel good about it. Well, all of his competitors had used out of date poll lists and none of them qualified to be on the ballot. There’s a difference between playing hardball and using lies and distortions against your opponent, and that’s where the Clintons have crossed the line.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/us/politics/30obama.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama
kathyodat
Reading these posts on CD is like craning my neck to see a horrible traffic accident - I can’t help but look, but it’s a terrible thing I’m seeing.
I’ve come to the conclusion that nothing the Obama supporters say about Obama or about Hillary will change the Hillary supporters’ minds one bit, and vice versa - the Hillary supporters aren’t going to change the Obama supporters’ minds.
It’s kind of comical, but also sad and frustrating. It’s frustrating, because a lot of this is perception. He’s a race baiter. No SHE’s a race baiter. You’re only voting for him because you hate women. You’re only voting for her because she’s a woman. She’s only voting for him because he’s black. Blah blah blah.
You can’t PROVE that one candidate is better, or more progressive, or more promising, or more talented, or more honest, or more intelligent than the other. You make your case the best you can, but all of it is filtered through our perceptions of these two candidates.
It’s also frustrating, and sad, because this is exactly what the Republicans want, and expect, from Democrats. Democrats are so predictable, so good at shooting themselves in the foot, so good at circular firing squads.
The Repugs have the ability to rally around one candidate — no matter how much some of them hate that candidate - because they’re united in a common purpose, which is to stop the “liberals” from taking over the White House.
Their hatred of liberals (or blacks or women) surpasses their hatred of Republican candidates that they think are not conservative enough.
The Dems, on the other hand, are so invested with being “right” about their candidate that they will fight each other to the death to prove it, even if they destroy themselves in the process.
I consider myself a recovering Democrat. That is, I’ve stopped being a Democrat because it’s just too toxic to remain one. I care, but I have to force myself not to care, because I’ll just be disappointed and heartbroken again. But it is like a drug: I want to believe that this candidate will be different, but I know better. It’s hard to break old habits, and I’ve been a Democrat my whole life. But not anymore. And this back biting and pissing and moaning and name-calling and totally self-destructive behavior is one big reason (not the only one) I’m not a Democrat anymore.
I’ve been betrayed and disappointed and heartbroken and lied to too many damn ties.
Do we, the liberals, progressives, and those on the left (some of whom are Dems, some who are not) have the ability to come together, to rally for a common purpose: getting the criminals out of the White House, the halls of Congress, and the courts? I really don’t think we do. But until we do, then we’ll just have more of the same: McCain will be our next president.
Kernel, you’re wrong, I was on the other end of the spectrum. Yeah, Clinton raised taxes on the rich - some - but he signed NAFTA, death warrant to our manufacturing base, signed the Telecommunications law, ending media diversity, signed welfare “reform” which moved millions of poor children from poverty into dire poverty and many others. The bills he signed came down on the side of the corporations instead of the working people. He and Hillary are the founders of the DLC whose first allegiance is to lobbyists and completely anti-union. He did put able administrators in the agencies which made them efficient. In stark contrast to Bush who was intent on destroying the Federal government and used cronyism to do it (my computer says cronyism isn’t a word). I say Bush has made it a word. If you stack Clinton against Bush, he looks good, but then so does McCain or almost anyone short of serial killers. Can’t we do better than that?
cranky_chatter, I can guess how you figured out my username, although no one else ever has. Not even my brother who has reason to be able to do so.
kathyodat
maybe its because she is a Republicrat, and if she wins it will read…
Clinton/Lieberman 08
cranky_chatter March 17th, 2008 9:22 pm
“There’s no reason to talk to them sometimes.”
and sometimes it’s important not to avoid the truth…..
thank you for flushing out that very obvious point every one seems to carefully overlook.
those voters in mississippi, ohio, new hampshire, texas that live in white enclaves are having a difficult time overcoming their prejudices, i listened to a caller on cspan yesterday describe dutch country pennslyvania as bavaria between liberia and lebanon, he was proud of that (comparing philly and ptsbrg to lebanon) i do believe obama has done well in overwhelmingly white states - especially out west, WA state for example. i think this prejudice exists in areas where there aren’t multiracial interactions, and where there are fewer educational/economic opportunities. there fore they feel threatened by outsiders (racism-anti immigrant).
this racism is masked when MSM frames the issues:
first that,republcans are voting for clinton believeing mccain can win against clinton in the general(i suspect some americans are offended obama made it this far)
and secondly, that clinton excels in poorer/less educated white areas b/c they’re concerned w/ the economy and hillary has bills intuitive experience (right?). it’s ironic that even MSM considers hillary wall street’s lady. what’s the disconnect the missing element that explains why the poor would vote for the candidate that actually is appreciated by the elites - when her entire family is leahcing off of long established political connections (maybe racial attitudes, islamophobia, and lack of education).
i realize this is very simple analysis. and some people may actually believe this isn’t the case. regardless there’s no question who has exploited this issue (clintons,limbaugh) and what are their motives?
the youth and and blacks of this country clearly know what’s being said, what ferraros, clinton’s comments really are about. back of the bus…..
in august they will express themselves en mass one way or the other.
in addition to the will of everyone else in the world (except maybe the israelis),
it’s one more legitimate reason (yes jena bush your next president will be a black man) the democratic party should choose barak obama to be the next president of the US…
…peace…..
Barack Obama has said several times that he will talk to our enemies in an attempt to make peace with them. Hilary says that can’t do that, that he’s being too naive.
Barack says in reply “YES WE CAN!” We can and must talk to our enemies if we want to make peace with them. Arrogant as hell American leaders refuse to talk to our enemies, because peace is the greatest threat to the military industrial complex. If the corrupt politicians made peace with our enemies, the biggest and most profitable industry in the world go out of business forever.
Hilary says Obama doesn’t have enough experience. Enough experience for what? Enough experience to be corrupted to the core? Experienced enough to be the property of the NY billionaire Jewish lobby, as well as the old mafia money in NY?
Hilary has truly acted like a monster. Rather than address the issues, rather than release her tax reports (as Obama did long ago), she has persistently attacked him.
I used to respect Hilary very much, but she has become almost as repulsive to me as GW Bush - as a result of her support of dubya’s so called “war on terror” and her negative campaign against Barack Obama. Winning is everything to her. Even her campaign workers have been at each other’s throats. If she gets a WH staff - would they be any different? She has clearly become corrupted and addicted to power and the limelight. She lusts for it, but she’s far more emotional than mental and she’s very hot headed. She is a recipe for disaster.
By the way, kernel, that Clinton budget was improved on the backs of the working poor. Clinton ran an austerity budget. Remember his campaign promises? Infrastructure, jobs creation? Now everyone can have two low wage jobs instead of one living wage job. Bill Clinton set that up. Not Reagan, Bill. Bush simply took the baton from bill and ran with it.
kathyodat
Gee, MaxheMust, if that happened, we would have to create whole new industries to employ people. You know, like alternative energy, restoring infrastructure and our manufacturing base, providing educational opportunities for more than the privileged. Just imagine seeing “Made in USA” on the products you buy. And at the rate our dollar is sinking it wouldn’t cost any more either.
kathyodat
Our economy is messed up now. Who is going to be stupid enough to vote for another Mad Dog of War Republican, e.g. John McCain? Shillary isn’t much better as she voted for the illegal attack on Iraq, is against the banning of cluster bombs, and will get us into a war with Iran.
Why does she praise McCain and trash Obama? She puts winning above the Democratic party. I guess if she figures if she can’t win, no other Democrat should. She would rather John McCain won instead of Obama. She’s a monster.
gingofig, you might as well give it up. These Obama supporters are hateful, as hateful as I have ever seen people. They say things that most of us would never say in public. We might think it in our darkest moments, but when we came to our senses realize that hate does nothing to convince others. For the past 7 1/2 years, I have felt strongly and sadly about the direction our country is going; I am learning through this primary season that hate gets us nowhere, but gets turned on ourselves. There is plenty of that displayed on this website.
Hilary Clinton and Rush Limbaugh sitting in a tree…
You know the rest -
But why won’t she release her tax returns. Obama did that long ago. What could Hilary be hiding? What is she afraid of?
wow
Democracy is sure ugly.
While it surely does beat the alternatives can everyone please respect that we are posting on ‘Common Dreams” and self-edit their language accordingly.
We all feel strongly about this race - and I don’t mean to be condescending but we can support our candidate and express our views without the hateful language.
Let’s not mimic Bush and the neo-cons and defend our views by destroying the very values we claim to uphold.
sassysue you may be right. folks need something to put their hate into. so many people on this site are full of shit - and they’re on our side! An earlier post made some horse-shit comment about “the doctors getting rich” on insurance money or some ill informed nonsense like that. I’m a fourth year medical student - starting my ob/gyn residency this june - and some asshole has the temerity to say that? The irony is, as one of those greedy doctors, i think health care is a right and that universal health care is a must. it was hillary who made that her clarion call back in ‘93 or so. None of these chickenshits probably even remember, let alone respect, that fact. everyone here apparently knows better. maybe she went about it the wrong way but she was one of the first to bring it out into plausible public discourse.
dig yourselves america, you’re groovy as ever.
Beforkids__ You are right that everything was not perfect and there were problems during Bill Clinton`s years, but he had to fight the Repubs to get anything done at all, and was able to keep the government operating when they tried to shut it down completely. There is always some groups in any administration that thinks they have been short-changed.
There was absolutely no comparison then with the disaster we have now for every group except the super rich. Most people then felt they had some chance for a decent life, while now it is questionable our country can keep from going into depression, and no one will have a future , unless they have a fortune safe in a Swiss bank.
There is no harm in bringing out some relevant things about the candidates, but this incessant mud slinging at the Clintons is not warranted, and has become a ridiculous waste of time. Hillary and Obama both have problems, but if not one of them, then who? We have some chance with either one of them to get our budget in better balance again by bringing our troops home and putting taxes on the rich as they are getting a free ride. There are more billionaires daily in this country that should be helping out with infrastructure and peoples needs while we argue around about nit-picking nonsense.
I haven’t read Obama’s two books, but early on I did see a very good interview with him on Charlie Rose. His thoughtfulness and good character clearly came through.
Because I liked him did not cause me to ‘dislike’ Senator Clinton — though I had/have questions about why she did not seem to do much in stopping the Rwandan Genocide. And, one wonders what happened to her husband’s promises prior to the 1992 election to work hard for a ‘living wage’ for all Americans (as well as, good European-like technical schools for our non-book-loving young adults, also, Lathyodat has also pointed out several other of President Clinton’s policies that may have been hurtful to our country.
However, some of Senator Clinton’s campaign statements and tactics, as well as those of her husband (”you gotta do what you gotta do”) and her staff — have caused me to feel very uncomfortable about the prospect of Senator Clinton leading our nation and setting a moral example for our young (I do not feel that way towards Senators Dodd or Biden, nor towards John Edwards and Dennis Kucinich).
I would probabaly vote for her over McCain because of war and economy — but I cannot imagine supporting her over Senator Obama.
gingko, below are the first links I read about Obama. Since then I’ve picked up information piecemeal
kathyodat
You are a class act. You state your position clearly, provide “real” links to support your position, and you are not nasty about it. THAT is the way to present your POV effectively. Cheers!
hi slimshady. i didn’t get the links but am interested in anything you’ve got. re-post ‘em!
thanks.
Wow. Judging from the slim cross-section this post represents, Democrats (progressives? liberals?) have been torn asunder. Mission accomplished!
Only Americans are capable of dragging down and disemboweling America. It has ever been thus.
BTW …
KaneJeeves sez: “You know what makes me saddest about this… Thinking about kids in school learning about American History, and Democracy, and elections. I’m sad about the day they find that they’ve been fed a line.”
Would you feel better to know most of those kids are learning no such thing?
gingkofig, did you miss my post of 9:51 where I posted the Obama info links?
I see you asked sLiMsHaDy to repost the links, so here they are:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/us/politics/30obama.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama
Glad to hear you’re a medical student. Also sorry because when I worked as an R.N. in a teaching hospital, I saw how residents were treated. Brutal.
Hillary’s universal health care plan of 1993 wasn’t going to be single payer. It was so complicated that even without Harry and Louise it was doomed. It just doesn’t make sense to anyone but politicians and people freaking out over socialized medicine to give 1/3 of our health care dollars to the insurance industry as profit. HR 676, the Conyers/Kucinich bill would only make the government the payer. Medical decisions would be returned to medical professionals and their patients where they belong. The financial burden would be shared by all of our society, for the benefit of all our society. It’s affordable, practical, and includes DENTAL! And there are no layers of plans “to fit your budget”. All that means is some worthless cheap plans to fulfill the criteria of “being insured”. With the bean counters still deciding what health care you get. Watch SiCKO, listen to what some of these CEOs are saying, it’ll make you sick. That’s one thing Michael Moore is good at is eavesdropping. You’d think these people would have the sense not to send memos or talk out loud.
kathyodat