Get News & Views Updates
Most Popular This Week
Popular content
Today's Top News
Evidence Doctored to Implicate Child Detainee: Lawyer
GUANTANAMO BAY, Cuba - The U.S. government "manufactured" evidence against Omar Khadr when it changed a document two months after his arrest and blamed him for throwing a grenade during a firefight that killed a soldier, his lawyer said yesterday.
The defence made public two documents in a U.S. military war crimes court showing that the on-scene commander altered official documents recounting the events of July 27, 2002, when Khadr was arrested in Afghanistan following a firefight with U.S. forces.
Those documents were received from the prosecution as part of the discovery process.
The information casts further doubt on the culpability of the 21-year-old Toronto man, who was arrested at an Al Qaeda compound at the age of 15.
Khadr is currently detained at the U.S. naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, which is used as a prison for terrorism suspects.
"The government manufactured evidence to make it look like Omar was guilty," Khadr's military lawyer, U.S. Navy Lt.-Cmdr. Bill Kuebler told reporters after a pre-trial hearing.
He went on to say the government did so "to reflect the reality that was most convenient to the United States government at that time."
The tribunal heard that in one official report dated July 28, 2002, the commander "Lieut. Col. W" wrote that the person who threw the grenade at Sgt. Christopher Speer had died, which would rule out Khadr as the suspect.
Yet, in a near-identical report written two months later, but also dated July 28, the commander changed a single line to read the grenade thrower did not die.
Army Col. Bruce Pagel, the deputy chief prosecutor, later told reporters he couldn't comment on evidence that will likely be part of the trial.
When asked by them if any evidence had been manufactured, Pagel responded with a curt "No."
The Pentagon alleges Khadr threw the grenade that killed Speer before being shot and captured. He is charged with "murder in violation of the laws of war" in Speer's death in addition to attempted murder, conspiracy, spying and providing material support to terrorism.
The two reports surfaced during a hearing in which the defence was seeking disclosure from the prosecution on various items, including the right to question "Lieut. Col. W" before the trial begins.
In particular, the defence wants the identities of all who interrogated Khadr when he was initially detained at Bagram military prison in Afghanistan, as well as their original notes and the techniques they used to extract information.
Although Khadr has so far been subjected to hundreds of interrogations by numerous individuals, Kuebler said he has received original notes from only one individual writing about three sessions.
Particularly troubling, Kuebler told military judge Col. Peter Brownback, was that various soldiers at Bagram were charged and prosecuted for abusing detainees.
It was revealed yesterday that one of Khadr's interrogators at Bagram, identified only as Sgt. C, was court-martialled and disciplined in connection with the December 2002 beating death of a detainee.
Given that Sgt. C was one of Khadr's interrogators, "creates an overwhelming lack of confidence in the evidence that the government is going forward on," Kuebler later told reporters.
But U.S. Marine Corps Maj. Jeffrey Groharing, the lead prosecutor, told the judge the defence team had been given typewritten summaries of those interrogations. He also argued the defence had failed to prove how speaking with interrogators would help their case.
Yesterday, Khadr appeared to be in good spirits as he was led into the courtroom, unshackled, with a guard on each elbow. Khadr was wearing a white prison uniform, which is reserved for detainees classified as "highly compliant."
Throughout the proceedings, he seemed engaged and appeared to pay close attention as both sides made their arguments.
After court, Kuebler explained that disclosure of information from Khadr's three months at Bagram is "critical" because this is when it was first suggested that Khadr threw the grenade.
Given the dearth of information surrounding his early days in detention, the defence told Brownback it was also necessary to gain access to diplomatic notes between American and Canadian government officials.
Kuebler believes correspondence from the Canadian government will show it was concerned about whether Khadr was a child soldier and if he was a participant in the firefight. He told reporters that Canada was putting pressure on the U.S. to address ambiguities in the allegations, which prompted the Americans to fabricate a story about his involvement.
The prosecution said its search of documents provided by the U.S. State Department offered no records relevant to the defence's case.
When Brownback specifically asked if there was any correspondence from the Canadians requesting Khadr's return, the prosecution said it hadn't found any.
Brownback ordered prosecutors to conduct another review.
To further bolster his case and illustrate the distressed physical state Khadr would have been in during those initial interrogations, Kuebler wanted to show a photo of the accused with two gaping bullet holes in his chest. But the judge refused his request.
That photo was recently published in the Star when it reprinted an excerpt of reporter Michelle Shephard's upcoming book Guantanamo's Child: The Untold Story of Omar Khadr.
Questions about whether Khadr threw the grenade first surfaced last month during a pre-trial hearing when a document was mistakenly disclosed to reporters. It stated someone else was with Khadr during the firefight and was still alive when the grenade was thrown.
Khadr's trial is set to begin in May.
Brownback said he would rule on most of the defence motions by late today.
© 2008 The Toronto Star
Comments
Note: Disqus 2012 is best viewed on an up to date browser. Click here for information. Instructions for how to sign up to comment can be viewed here. Our Comment Policy can be viewed here. Please follow the guidelines. Note to Readers: Spam Filter May Capture Legitimate Comments...
32 Comments so far
Show AllThing is, even if the kid had thrown a grenade at soldiers who were attacking him it wouldn't have been murder. Of course, they have yet to explain how he threw such a grenade after he was shot in the back...
Of course the evidence was doctored, the 'evidence' for the wars against Afghanistan and Iraq were doctored, why wouldn't war crime charges also suffer the same fate?
This is a child for God's sake. WTF is with you America!!!
American government=Child predators
"The information casts further doubt on the culpability of the 21-year-old Toronto man, who was arrested at an Al Qaeda compound at the age of 15."
News-Flash to Americans: We know the "then" fifteen year old Khadr is not guily. We don't need you to cast any further doubts. If you want to keep him prisoner or murder him, at least do it with the foreknowledge that you are not fooling anybody, if that matters to you at all.
What did we find out about just recently? The man that all the people playing defence lawyers, prosecutors and judges reported to, until last week, William Haynes, said, "We can't have acquittals."
What an embarassment this is for the United States. The people in this administration are too pitiful to be governing anywhere, any time, any place. Sheesh!
From my earliest years in parochial school, Soviet "show trials" were held forth as incontrovertable evidence of a malignant, predatory, ruthless, totalitarian despotism clothing its heinous and reprehensible crimes in the robes of justice.
Thanks to the Bush crime family and its enablers, the US now produces a domestic variety of show trial that is quite robust, and compares handsomely to the Stalin-inspired originals. From exculpating atrocities in the field to torturing the innocent, this heinous maladministration must be commended for nurturing a one-stop, full-service totalitarian jurisprudence. The zeal and enthusiasm of the government legal community architects overcomes their relative lack of experience. We're Number One!
Hooray for our side.
This is the source/location of the above article and it has many links:
http://www.thestar.com/article/346020
Omar Khadr is paying for the sins of his father - and one would have to ask what kind of father would take a minor out of school and farm him out to the military. His crime is not being able to stand up to his father.
Only one other child soldier caught in the field was subjected to the same treatment as Omar Khadr. Mohammed Jawad, who was 16 when he was captured, is also charged with throwing a grenade.
RE:Although Khadr has so far been subjected to hundreds of interrogations by numerous individuals, Kuebler said he has received original notes from only one individual writing about three sessions.
The second CTV video with Omar Khadr's lawyer, Dennis Edney, details some of the "interrogation" techniques that Khadr was personally subjected to - and this after receiving three bullets in his back.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080313/khadr_pretrial_AM_080313/20080313/
RE: - Particularly troubling, Kuebler told military judge Col. Peter Brownback, was that various soldiers at Bagram were charged and prosecuted for abusing detainees. / It was revealed yesterday that one of Khadr's interrogators at Bagram, identified only as Sgt. C, was court-martialled and disciplined in connection with the December 2002 beating death of a detainee.
Sounds like a perfect guardian! I wonder why more children are not placed in his care! :rolleyes
RE: - To further bolster his case and illustrate the distressed physical state Khadr would have been in during those initial interrogations, Kuebler wanted to show a photo of the accused with two gaping bullet holes in his chest. But the judge refused his request.
Why would the Judge refuse this request? Is he afraid that looking at the picture would bias his decision? Looking at the picture would show what kind of shape Omar Khadr was when he was first interrogated. Now he is completely blind in one eye and losing the sight of the other. I wonder how that happened!
RE: - We know the "then" fifteen year old Khadr is not guily.
Would it make a difference if he was? Khadr was with a group of people shooting at American soldiers so it is possible they may have shot at other American soldiers even days earlier. If Khadr was handed a gun and told to shoot, would he even know if he hit anybody or what happened to them?
This is not an issue of guilt but of responsibility and child soldiers are not seen to be fully responsible for their actions because of the coercion that they face. If Khadr wanted out then where would he go and to whom would he turn?
On the other hand, Khadr seems quite well-behaved in prison so he might be used to obeying bullying others. Compliance could have kept him from questioning his father - then again his father would have dragged him into service kicking and screaming if he had to.
One thing that Khadr's lawyers will need to determine is how much Khadr remembers because some of these techniques can distort memories.
Wow Little Brother -- that's a sizzling hot set of memories and "odd" coincidences with the psychopathetic fascism of the inferior shrub_in_thief.
Thanks for the concise description of evil, it's obvious that you've had too many chances starring at it eye-to-eye (I-2-I) to miss-characterize it.
We're blessed to have a chance to read of your travails in our now (hopefully not) too similar situation.
Namaste
The idea that Stephen Harper would go out of his way to help Omar Khadr is laughable. Harper's party has this "tough on crime" approach which involves increasing the amount of time minors spend in jail for their crimes. In Harper's opinion, any minor guilty of murder should be tried as an adult. Harper also wants to bring back the death penalty, but won't ever be able to do that without a Majority.
On the plus side, a dying man who was supposed to have died of colon cancer over 8 months ago has just had his wrongful conviction overturned. At least he got his dying wish.
Omar Khadr was captured in 2002 and, in 2003, his father Ahmed Said Khadr was killed and his younger (then 14 year old) brother Abdulkareem was paralysed during the same October 2 battle.
There have been a few articles on the Omar Khadr case on the CBC in the last few days:
Judge grants Khadr defence request for details of interrogations
March 14
Khadr's legal team has argued that the information is key to determining whether the Toronto-born man was pressured into making incriminating statements through torture during questioning at an Afghanistan air base.
If extracted through torture, the defence wants Khadr's comments stricken from the record.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/03/14/khadr-pre-trial.html
U.S. 'manufactured story' on 2002 Afghan gun battle: Khadr's lawyer
Pentagon under pressure from Canadian officials, says Kuebler
March 13, 2008
Kuebler alleges Khadr has been threatened with rendition to places where he would be raped. Kuebler also said he believes allegations Khadr has been beaten, has had dogs turned on him and is nearly blind. Earlier reports said Khadr is blind in one eye, with deteriorating sight in his other eye.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/03/13/khadr-interrogators.html
Omar Khadr's lawyers to seek names of U.S. interrogators in Afghanistan
March 13, 2008
The defence made public two documents in a U.S. military war crimes court showing that the on-scene commander altered official documents recounting the events of July 27, 2002, when Khadr was arrested in Afghanistan following a firefight with U.S. forces.
Those documents were received from the prosecution as part of the discovery process.
The information casts further doubt on the culpability of the 21-year-old Toronto man, who was arrested at an Al Qaeda compound at the age of 15.
This once-great country of the United States is daily building up immense and terrible karma.
The probability that the vastly rich and powerful Bush and Cheney will pay the dues is very low...so if they will not, which of us will?
"Thing is, even if the kid had thrown a grenade at soldiers who were attacking him it wouldn't have been murder." It was just as much murder as those committed by soldiers throwing grenades and firing at people. All war is murder. Only bias makes us see one set of combatants as noble and good and one set as criminal. They are all criminals.
forextrader March 14th, 2008 12:01 pm wrote:
"This is a child for God's sake. WTF is with you America!!!"
There are at least 2500 people doing life without parole in the US for crimes they committed when they were as young as 13, making the US by far the world leader in this sad category. Most were convicted of murder, but a significant percentage, nearly half, were sentenced to LWOP under the felony murder rule, which holds that all participants who commit a serious offence that results in death are equally guilty of murder, whether or not they intended to cause or directly participated in the killing. It was not until 2005 that the US Supreme Court abolished the imposition of the death penalty for juveniles who were 16 or 17 at the time of their crimes.
Additionally, juvenile detention facilities in the US are a national disgrace, with children as young as 10 being beaten, locked in solitary confinement, tear-gassed in their cells, sexually abused and otherwise mistreated, often after being committed to them for status offences such as running away from home, truancy, or being "in need of supervision." As well, many prisons and detention centers of all kinds in the US are now private for-profit facilities, and as such are not subject to the same regulations and oversight as public facilities, and have been strategically placed in depressed rural communities, so that (and I believe it's intentional) potential whistleblowers have a powerful disincentive to speak out.
This has been going on for years, along with draconian drug laws, three-strikes-you're-out and other mandatory sentences, and the wholesale dismantling of social services, particularly mental health services.
Most Americans don't care. They are too busy working three jobs, or they hope that the Corrections Corporation of American is coming soon to a community near them.
shouldn't really be hard to get an acquittal if we were dealing with any known form of jurisprudence in the history of the western world except for the one currently operating out of the white house.
to begin with when you invade another country, drop bombs and shoot rockets, well you naturally expect the local people to shoot back. you do not capture them and charge them with murder. never. unheard of. it's crazy.
and is there even one tiny shred of evidence to indicate Omar did it? there is none. if there was a real judge in a real court, he'd dismiss the whole non- case in 2 seconds
yeah sure but why go on? they have been at this so long now no one expects rational behavior from them anymore.
the rest of the world though should be screaming at us to stop. or maybe bring murder charges against our troops.....
Its time for Harper to stand up to America or step down as "leader" of Canada. That he will not bring Kahdr home is disgraceful! Of course, that being said, Harper's goons would probably continue where the kangaroo trials at Guantanamo left off.
I see no difference between a child soldier (which at the time, in effect, Kahdr was) in Afghanistan, or a child soldier in Africa. These children have not had the age or education to acquire the ability realize the consequences of their actions, and therefore, should not bear the responsibility of adults who do (or should) know right from wrong.
Harper and his government are an embarrassing blight on Canada and the Dion Liberals are not much better since they refuse to act as an oppositional party in fear of facing the Canadian electorate.
Just in:
Judge sides with Khadr defence team
"A U.S. military judge has sided with Omar Khadr's defence team and ordered that a senior U.S. officer be deposed before Mr. Khadr's trial begins.
"In a ruling issued Friday, Army Colonel Peter Brownback sided with the defence on five motions, granting Mr. Khadr's lawyers more access to a variety of information the prosecution had until now refused to hand over."
No doubt the documents the prosecution has been ordered to turn over will immediately be reclassified to a higher level. But still, Brownback is giving them a run for their money. If he keeps it up, I expect he'll be replaced - forced to resign to spend more time with his family or something.
A Voice Apart March 14th, 2008 5:31 pm wrote:
"Harper and his government are an embarrassing blight on Canada and the Dion Liberals are not much better since they refuse to act as an oppositional party in fear of facing the Canadian electorate."
As a (fellow?) Canadian I couldn't agree more.
I too agree that Harper is a menace... Dion, well, Dion is just another stupid establishment liberal frenchmen. We've have enough of those. In fact, he's such a weaselly little fellow that I think the Liberal party WANTS to lose the election to Harper and his gang of fascists. Why else would they elect Dion 'leader'.
It is a disgrace that Canada allows the US to hold one of their citizens (A minor at that) in the torture center known as Guantanamo.
2nd, I agree that this is nothing but a show trial and it is disgraceful.
3rd, American soldiers are allowed to kill anyone they want but if someone kills an American soldier (who is the invader), it's a crime? Bullshit! Countries have a right to self-defense. If the US came across the 49th, you better believe we'd be fighting back. The US soldier had NO right to be there in the first place.
Finally, the ONLY way the US knows how to "win" is cheat. They can't prove any wrong doing, so they have to make something up in order to cover their asses. It's bloody sick! I'm convinced that the United States is a psychopathic country with absolutely NO morals!
realdim: Great points and thank you for your good post. Regards.
Elmysterio: I agree with you 100% on your points. Sorry to break it to you though. If the USA military were to cross into Canada, it may be perceived as legal because of an agreement made between Canadian and US military (Northcom) leaders in 2001. http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8323
I have read it elsewhere too, but can't remember where to link it as well.
However, in this agreement, our troops could be deployed to the US and they cannot argue the legitimacy either. Maybe we should takeover and show the American people how it feels to have occupiers in their own country (we have already meddled into their politics thanks to Harpie's dark servants through "Nafta-gate"). Why is everything "gated" in the US? And, ummm, don't bash all French persons, okay? Some of us are.
If in fact he threw a grenade at American troops, he is fortunate to be to be locked up and not to have received a bullet in the head for throwing the grenade.
My French-Canadian father said nasty things about Americans as well - so consider it even.
RE: - There are at least 2500 people doing life without parole in the US for crimes they committed when they were as young as 13, making the US by far the world leader in this sad category.
Speaking of sad categories - remember that training manual which said that the US was a place where prisoners risked torture? Remember David Wilkin's* reaction?
"We find it to be offensive for us to be on the same list with countries like Iran and China. Quite frankly it's absurd. For us to be on a list like that is just ridiculous." / "We think it should be removed and we've made that request. We have voiced our opinion very forcefully."
Don't both Iran and China also have the death penalty? Because of 14 year old Steven Truscott**, who was originally sentenced to hang, Canada no longer has the death penalty. Europe doesn't either.
And, strangely, Wilkins wasn't all that "forceful" about the NAFTA-gate leaks - as far as he was concerned, it was already forgotten. If there are any Americans on this thread, please explain this to us.
*DW=American Ambassador to Canada, used to be the speaker in the South Carolina Legislature.
**ST was acquitted last year of the rape and murder. Would Truscott's age have made a difference in the US?
RE: - Harper and his government are an embarrassing blight on Canada
Fellow Canucks, which do you prefer - Schmiergelder Harper or Stephen Harpercrit? And how much longer do you think it will take for Iggy to take Spineless's (Dion's) job?
RE: - It is a disgrace that Canada allows the US to hold one of their citizens (A minor at that) in the torture center known as Guantanamo.
The NDP are trying to get him out - the Tories are fine with Khadr staying where he is - the Liberals are, except for the odd backbencher, strangely silent.
RE: - Why else would they elect Dion 'leader'.
Rae is unpopular in the Liberal's stronghold of Ontario and Iggy, who supported the war in Iraq, had just come back from living in the States - so it wasn't going to be either of those two. It was going to be either Dion or Kennedy and Kennedy's french is worse than Dion's english so I figured it would be Dion. The longer Parliament lasts, the more Iggy gets up to speak and the more Iggy gets up to speak facing the Schmiergelder Harpercrits, the less he looks like a transplanted Republican - which is why I think it will be him rather than Rae. And it won't be anyone new because the last thing the Liberals want right now is another prolonged period without a leader.
*schmiergelder=slush fund, bribemoney, bribes, bungs, kickbacks;
RE: - 2nd, I agree that this is nothing but a show trial and it is disgraceful.
Which is why Khadr's lawyers keep the media informed of what's going on - to keep up the public scrutiny as a means of making sure that this show trial shows all. The lawyers are interested in helping Khadr, but they are equally interested in revealing all of America's dirty little secrets to make it harder for any near future administration to do this again.
In a sick way, Khadr's youth is the angle that keeps the story in the American news (otherwise it would just be considered a Canadian story).
The bits and pieces I am hearing make it sound as if Omar Khadr will need someone to look after him for the rest of his life - that unless his mother can care for both him an his paralyzed brother, Khadr is going straight from the torture chamber to the nursing home.
RE: - If the USA military were to cross into Canada, it may be perceived as legal because of an agreement made between Canadian and US military (Northcom) leaders in 2001.
Skimmed through your article. The sharing of information and databases seemed evident from the Maher Arar Inquiry. Harper got some flack a few months back for sending Canadian soldiers to receive training from Blackwater. In Bush's speech, he said that the Three Amigos were meeting in Montebello in April - sounds like another SPP* meeting to me. I wonder how much more integrated we will be after.
*SPP=NAFTA on Steroids - Canada, Mexico and the US try to word laws in the form of regulations rather than legislations so that they can make the changes without having to go through Parliament or Congress.
RE: - If in fact he threw a grenade at American troops, he is fortunate to be to be locked up and not to have received a bullet in the head for throwing the grenade.
Not with his famous father. The US Military must have thought that it hit pay dirt when they realised whose son they had.
Even if Omar Khadr's father wasn't famous, the fact that he wanted them to kill him when they found him was probably what led them to spare him. We are never told why Omar Khadr wanted to die even before being imprisoned and tortured.
OldBadgertoo;
All war is murder, eh? So you don't recognise a diff between someone killing the invader and someone killing a homeowner/renter in their own home? Murder is unlawful killing. That is the fricking definition of the word. In the opinion of the us gov't killing a yank is unlawful, but butchering thousands of children with bombs made in the usa is something the media cheers on. Fuck your gov't. Fuck your media. There's a hell of a diff between what the Taliban did and what your gov't has done, even if neither of them are any better than the other.
Gitmo is a disgrace to the US and it needs to be closed. I had to live under the uniform code of military justice then they can use it to try these people and clear them or punish them accordingly. But this locking them up forever without trial is a crime too. Some of these people need to be set free on time served or if they are so awful shoot em and be done with it. I know that sounds awful, but I believe some of them would prefer it. As to this child, enough is enough cut him loose.
-Bomber
US Iraq War Vet
Do I feel safer now after 9/11 then I did before? No, I do not! I do not fear a terrorist attack. I fear being picked up by the fascists, locked away without a trial in some sadistic prison run by the authorities. I fear that MY government will not assist me should this befall me. Why? Because I'm a Canadian citizen, that's why.
RE: - So you don't recognise a diff between someone killing the invader and someone killing a homeowner/renter in their own home?
The Imperialist foreigner is usually considered to be the "invader."
RE: - Murder is unlawful killing.
So the Death Penalty is not murder - even if the person turns out to be innocent - because it is "lawful" killing.
This is the standard that the Israelis use to justify their own killing of Palestinian children while condemning the killing of Israeli children. I think that we can agree that the killing of both Israeli and Palestinian children are wrong - no matter who is in charge of the law.
RE: - But this locking them up forever without trial is a crime too.
So true. It also questions the rational for holding them in the first place. If they are guilty, surely one could prove it in a court of law.
The presenting of the deceased as a medic is also a bit misleading - the person was not tending to the injured at the time but engaged in combat. Thus, while the person was a medic, he was not being employed as such at the time of death. Thus, the person who did throw the grenade had no way of knowing that he was, in fact, a medic.
Canadians - did you know that Harper's lawyer is an arms lobbyist who is presently peddling his wares to an American Arms dealer? If not, does this news surprise you?
Americans - you need to read this and tell us who you believe when it comes to the players surrounding Omar Khadr:
Friday, March 14, 2008
Ms. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in the case of Omar Khadr, the young Canadian held in Guantanamo, we have learned that the American sergeant who interrogated him is before a court martial accused of abusing detainees during interrogations. It is even suspected that he caused the death of one of them. We know that, during his detention, Mr. Khadr was subjected to cruel and inhumane treatment.
What is the government waiting for to bring him back to Canada for his trial?
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, CPC): Mr. Speaker, Mr. Khadr faces very serious charges. The Government of Canada has sought and received assurances that Mr. Khadr is being treated humanely. Department officials have carried out several welfare visits with Mr. Khadr and will continue to do so.
Ms. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, we have also learned that an American army officer allegedly changed a report in order to blame young Mr. Khadr. The first report, the original one, said that the assailant had been killed. Mr. Khadr was therefore not involved in this case. In view of the facts, there is no reason for the government to wait.
When will it take action to bring Omar Khadr home?
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, CPC): Mr. Speaker, as I stated, Mr. Khadr faces serious charges. At the current time, the case is going on, the legal process is on and appeals are on, but from Canada's point of view, we will continue visiting Mr. Khadr to see to his well-being. I can assure members that we have asked the U.S. to treat him humanely.
http://www2.parl.gc.ca/housechamberbusiness/chambersittings.aspx?View=H&Parl=39&Ses=2&Language=E&Mode=1
vaudree;
Just to be clear, I think war itself is a crime, I think executing people is wrong. That being said, how many people ever get charged with a crime (manslaughter, or at least attempted manslaughter) when an innocent is found on death row? Does the prosecutor, the judge or the jury get charged with nearly killing someone (or actually killing the innocent if they find out too late)? It may have happened once or twice in the last five thousand years, but those would be the exceptions proving the rule.
To relate to the article, how often do those who fabricate evidence (in CSI labs, cops planting 'drop guns', etc) go to trial? When they do go to trial how much time in jail do they recieve? Or are they usually acquitted because their victims have criminal records already and are - by definition - second class citizens without rights.
A few other interesting points, a medic - by the terms of the Geneva Convention - cannot be armed. I'm not sure if that includes a pistol, but they're not allowed to carry an assault rifle and be called medics. The us army medics carry assault rifles in Iraq and Afghanistan, they are not medics.
Believe it or not, I think we agree more than we disagree. I was talking about what the laws are, you're arguing what is right. I agree with you're opinions on what is right, but the law doesn't agree with either of our opinions.
Kadr is a Canadian...maybe he was confused and thought the grenade was a snowball?
If the USA ever invaded my country, uniform or not, I would throw everything in arms reach at them.
RE: Believe it or not, I think we agree more than we disagree.
Probably. Often something someone says reminds me of a point I think should be made.
There have been quite a few wrongfully convicted in Canada and a few inquiries into what leads one to be wrongfully convicted. Erin Walsh admits that if he was on the jury at the time that he would have probably wrongfully convicted himself. He is dying of colon cancer (by all accounts should have been dead already) and has recently been acquitted of murder:
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/ifjusticefails/video.html
I've noticed that the Fifth Estate has recently updated "Lies that Led to War" - which should be available on line by next week (cbc.ca/fifth).
Have your heard about Omar Khadr's older brother yet?
CIA paid me to spy: Abdurahman Khadr
Abdurahman says he was captured by U.S. forces in Afghanistan when the Taliban fell in November 2001. He lived in a CIA safehouse in Kabul for months, showing intelligence agents al-Qaeda locations around the city.
"There was this tour. They called it Abdurahman tour," he said. "I was famous for that."
Abdurahman says the CIA sent him to Camp X-ray in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to spy on other inmates. When that failed, he says he was sent to Bosnia – on the CIA's payroll – to spy on suspected al-Qaeda members.
"You see how much people are working with them, what they're doing. They're buying weapons, they're selling weapons, they're recruiting people. You know, information, just any information at all," said Abdurahman.
When he asked to return to Canada, Abdurahman says the CIA dropped him off at the Canadian embassy in Sarajevo after making him promise to keep his CIA activities secret.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/03/04/khadr_reax040304.html
Canuckchuck - how about Marc Emery? Marc Emery named his business on his tax returns and paid taxes on it and was facing no charges in Canada. How, short of an evasion, did the Americans get their hands on Marc Emery. Not one snowball was thrown.
OK, more of an infiltration than an evasion - though it does blur the lines between the two.
Those who actively support a criminal activity are criminally liable themselves. US military actions in the ME are criminal in intent and in means. That means the judge, prosecutor, and any military defense attorneys are criminals themselves. How can they conduct a fair trial?
As Smedley Butler pointed out, they are professional gangbangers. Professional anything else, no.
vaudree March 15th, 2008 12:08 am wrote:
"Speaking of sad categories - remember that training manual which said that the US was a place where prisoners risked torture? Remember David Wilkin's* reaction?"
And do you recall that a week or after Wilkin's whine, the US media widely (and briefly) reported that Canada was on a "list" of countries for which Australian visitors should "exercise caution" due to "risk of terrorist attacks." Never mind that the US (and most EU countries) were so listed, and had been for years. Spain, the UK, NYC - where can an Aussie go anymore? Bali?
"In a sick way, Khadr's youth is the angle that keeps the story in the American news ..."
I think that Khadr's (former) youth is WHY the Bush regime has chosen him for their show trial. There are no mitigating circumstances in the endless war on terror - none. Bush wants the world to understand that in no uncertain terms, and to flout the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which the US has signed but refused to ratify.
"We are never told why Omar Khadr wanted to die even before being imprisoned and tortured."
Khadr was in a house that came under some four hours of very intense ground fire, then was repeatedly strafed by rockets fired from Apaches, and then flattened by two 500-pound bombs, killing most of the people he was with and causing him serious shrapnel injuries, including blinding him in one eye; then he was shot twice in the back (there are photos available on the net of two gaping exit wounds in his chest, if you have the stomach for that sort of thing); and then he was taken prisoner by people he had likely been told would torture him. I don't know about you, but I think I'd want to get it over with at that point, too.
My guess is that he is alive today only because he spoke in perfect English, which I am sure the Americans weren't expecting and which probably gave them pause. Even then, the medic who treated him at the scene said that a lot of the Americans were keen to finish him off.
He's a Muslim, isn't he? He doesn't have blonde hair, blue eyes, and white skin, right? Then according to the right-wing Dogs of War, it's okay to imprison him, torture him, rape him, and generally screw up his life. It's the War Party's way of life (and their complicit Democrat supporters).
RE: - And do you recall that a week or after Wilkin's whine, the US media widely (and briefly) reported that Canada was on a "list" of countries for which Australian visitors should "exercise caution" due to "risk of terrorist attacks."
I never thought of it that way before, but you are right! At the time, I was too busy shaking my head and laughing to be thinking of what might be behind it. If I thought of a political issue at all it was about trying to stop the flow of handguns from across the US border (ie blaming the Americans).
BTW - what is the difference between a street gang and a terrorist organization?
RE: - and then he was taken prisoner by people he had likely been told would torture him. I don't know about you, but I think I'd want to get it over with at that point, too.
That is what I don't know. Omar Khadr lived some years in Canada and one reason why they moved away (before moving back) was because they did not like the influences in public schools here - one comment made by his mother was the secular nature of the education her children were receiving in Canada and her fear that Canadian schools would convince her children to be homosexuals - which was her excuse for having them sent abroad with the father for what amounted to military training. Ergo, Omar would have had many similar experience to other kids and that would include what most 8 or 10 year olds know about the US.
It could be that when Omar Khadr was "recruited" that he was conditioned to distrust Americans and see them as horrible torturers, but still his request seems odd. The soldier had just killed the person beside him and was probably planning to do the same to him. It could be that Omar Khadr's life sucked even before the battle.
RE: - He's a Muslim, isn't he?
Yeah, but his father was also friends with Osama Bin Laden. The Khadrs are as notorious as the Canadian connection to Al-Quaida (sp?) terrorism gets. I do feel sorry for their poor kids.
Short background on Omar Khadr
http://www.cbc.ca/thehour/video.php?id=708
The Hour video is from a couple years ago - and the US Military guest is lying through his teeth. But the part at the beginning about is family is true.