"This is your answer? Send hundreds of thousands of unemployed auto and steel workers south for jobs with the auto industry?"

It's just one answer. There are other approaches such as learning another trade. Ultimately individuals with financial problems need to solve them themselves. This will always beat sitting around in self pity waiting for someone else to do smething they may not be able to do anyway.

"be a regular Johnny Appleseed of government statistics,"

As opposed to your preference, cherry picked anecdotes? I'll take statistics.

"spreading your numerical good news "

When did I do any such thing? I merely protested against *false* bad news, such as "we don't make anything here". False. Repeated over and over so people wrongly think it's true.

Jakenewton (March 18th, 2008 7:44 am) wrote: "The auto industry is booming in the American South relatively speaking. Many of these workers have the aptitude required to be a good auto mechanic, a profession that has good jobs available and few to fill them."

This is your answer? Send hundreds of thousands of unemployed auto and steel workers south for jobs with the auto industry? Ho, ho. Where's your proof that these hundreds of thousands of good-paying jobs exist?

Jakenewton (March 18th, 2008 7:51 am) wrote: "RSJ, you cherry pick the auto manufacturing situation in Ohio, near the worst example in the US, and combine it with an unbeleivable anecdote regarding what appears to be an under the table criminal enterprise, that you refuse to provide evidence for. The discussion is on general aspects of the economy, you approach is wrong and uninteresting."

Have it your way, Jake: start with Silicon Valley in California and work your way east; or you could start at Bear Stearns in New York, where they will soon be cutting 8,000 jobs, and work your way west. You can be a regular Johnny Appleseed of government statistics, spreading your numerical good news as you travel along. BTW, my BS meter is working fine and it tells me there is something unbelievably wrong and uninteresting here, but it isn't with me or my friend.

It's all about where the money comes from in the first place. For some enlightenment, check out Banketeering - how the banks have been stealing trillions from you, and the tap is still running http://www.rudemacedon.ca/dlp/box/box01-money.html

RSJ, you cherry pick the auto manufacturing situation in Ohio, near the worst example in the US, and combine it with an unbeleivable anecdote regarding what appears to be an under the table criminal enterprise, that you refuse to provide evidence for. The discussion is on general aspects of the economy, you approach is wrong and uninteresting.

"Where should they migrate?"

The auto industry is booming in the American South relatively speaking. Many of these workers have the aptitude required to be a good auto mechanic, a profession that has good jobs available and few to fill them.

"The products from China (and, occasionally, from Malaysia and Indonesia) are purchased cheaply as part of larger shipments to other US retail outlets here. They are then repackaged cheaply and shipped to Japan. "

I don't believe the story RSJ, I think someone is gullible here. And if indeed repackaged ""cheaply" in the US, a nation known for high labor costs, the added value isn't much. The value of the import vs. the export is near a wash.

"The Japanese authorities, from the information on the outside of the packaging, then certifies the shipment is indeed from the United States."

I find this especially hard to beleive, that if this practice is indeed happening, that they don't take any steps to prevent it.

"It's illegal for the Executive Branch to wiretap Americans without a FISA warrant, yet that was done; "

Irrelevent to the discussion. The facts on this are not settled, and my point on the legality of falsely printing "Made in U.S.A." was a minor one.

Your freind's anecdote doesn't prove much of anything, I think your B.S. meter needs calibration. If it's true they are engaging in this illeagal practice, none of this is getting on the books anyway.

Jakenewton (March 17th, 2008 7:34 am) wrote: "There are shelves of books at the library catering to those who are in career fluxuation, I've found them helpful myself. For the worse cases, those who have no marketabvle skills for that area, they may have to join what has always been a rich part of US history, those who migrate to better themselves."

Where should they migrate? Guatemala? Mexico? Wal-Marts' around the country pay the same rate no matter where you go, and Canada sure won't give them a work permit. Aside from that, many don't have the money to move.

Jakenewton wrote: "The last thing they should do is sit ariound hopind someone will do something for them. There never was any promise of a lucrative career for life, and they were in fact paid for the hours worked and typically got a handsome severence package too."

It's not always true that they received a 'handsome severance package' and some lost their pensions. Perhaps they should, oh, I don't know, band together and vote for a government that's "of, by and for the people." That might work.

Jakenewton wrote: "Whatever cachet there may be about US products vs. Chinese, your friend was either lying or mistaken. There is no business case that you can describe that justifies sending products across an ocean and back again, just to get special printing on a box. We live in a global economy, low level services such as printing can be done anywhere cheaply. And even if it were as you say it is, you would have the importing of the product show up on one side of the ledger and the exporting showing up on the other. I am sure the markup would occur in Japan, from wholesale to retail, so the two transactions for the US would roughly cancel, with the slight value of just a box with alternate printing."

The products from China (and, occasionally, from Malaysia and Indonesia) are purchased cheaply as part of larger shipments to other US retail outlets here. They are then repackaged cheaply and shipped to Japan. The Japanese authorities, from the information on the outside of the packaging, then certifies the shipment is indeed from the United States. The shipping costs are marginal. Were they shipped from the Philippines or Mexico and labelled as 'Made in the USA,' the shipment would be rejected or impounded. How hard is this to understand?

Jakenewton (March 17th, 2008 7:37 am) wrote: "Oh, and I'm pretty sure it's illeagal to export items made in China that say "Made in the U.S.A " on them."

It's illegal for the Executive Branch to wiretap Americans without a FISA warrant, yet that was done; it's illegal to incarcerate an American citizen without swift due process of law, yet that has also been done; it's also illegal, according to treaties signed by the US, to hold foreign citizens indefinitely and torture them, yet that has also been done. Shipping out products to Japan falsely packaged as 'Made in the USA' would seem to be small potatoes next to violating the Constitution.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure it's illeagal to export items made in China that say "Made in the U.S.A " on them.

"What additional action would you recommend?"

There are shelves of books at the library catering to those who are in career fluxuation, I've found them helpful myself. For the worse cases, those who have no marketabvle skills for that area, they may have to join what has always been a rich part of US history, those who migrate to better themselves.

The last thing they should do is sit ariound hopind someone will do something for them. There never was any promise of a lucrative career for life, and they were in fact paid for the hours worked and typically got a handsome severence package too.

Whatever cachet there may be about US products vs. Chinese, your friend was either lying or mistaken. There is no business case that you can describe that justifies sending products across an ocean and back again, just to get special printing on a box. We live in a global economy, low level services such as printing can be done anywhere cheaply. And even if it were as you say it is, you would have the importing of the product show up on one side of the ledger and the exporting showing up on the other. I am sure the markup would occur in Japan, from wholesale to retail, so the two transactions for the US would roughly cancel, with the slight value of just a box with alternate printing.

Jakenewton wrote: "And apparently thought they were set for life and were wrong. The answer is to take additional action."

What additional action would you recommend?

Jake, do some research -- from cosmetics to jeans, products printed with American labels, or in boxes in English, sell well in Japan, even though half the time the Japanese comsumer can't read English. There was a social cachet in Japan in having American products in the house or on your body -- at least until lately. Aside from that, there is still some cultural aversion to Chinese products in Japan.

Perhaps one day some Japanese firm will do the relabeling themselves (although I believe that is illegal in Japan at the moment) but, for the time being, that's what this US company is doing -- at a tidy profit.

"They took action themselves — that's how they ended up with low-paying 'Blue Vest' jobs, the only ones available. "

And apparently thought they were set for life and were wrong. The answer is to take additional action.

"If you think removing the 'Made in China' labels and repackaging an item as apparently being produced in the USA and reselling it to the Japanese market at a considerable mark-up in price doesn't make any business sense, then you don't know much about business, and you don't have much sense."

That's just dumb. The Japanese could import the goods and do the relabling themselves without having to go across the Pacific ocean *twice*. Try again maybe?

Jakenewton (March 15th, 2008 12:53 pm) wrote: "I wouldn't change anything I said, and I woul emphasize especially to them to expect better results from actions they take themselves than from anything the government would provide."

They took action themselves -- that's how they ended up with low-paying 'Blue Vest' jobs, the only ones available. Start booking your tour now, Jake, and start with Youngstown, Ohio.

Jakenewton (March 15th, 2008 12:57 pm): "I think the story is wrong anyway, because what you described makes no business sense."

If you think removing the 'Made in China' labels and repackaging an item as apparently being produced in the USA and reselling it to the Japanese market at a considerable mark-up in price doesn't make any business sense, then you don't know much about business, and you don't have much sense.

"All right, Jake, have it your way. Believe that the government and Wall Street are watching out for your interests, "

I never said they were, in fact I'm skeptical of their intent.

"you are not immune to a faltering economy "

I know, I'm in IT, we have our own special "issues".

All right, Jake, have it your way. Believe that the government and Wall Street are watching out for your interests, and spending your tax money, regulating food, drugs, toys, and banking for your benefit (and not the big corps), and are using numbers to provide you with the whole truth of what is happening, while ignoring or downplaying what you see and experience everyday yourself. However, at least be honest as to the cause, if and when the same ill wind blows your way.

I have a good friend who thought like you; he is VERY good with numbers and statistics. He's has an engineering degree and a Masters in BA, and was gung-ho about Bush, outsourcing, and Wall Street--until he lost his job and could not find another.

Now, he is not so gung-ho about outsourcing. It's funny how great something is, until it affects you. The tendency is to defend yourself, though, and go into denial as to the cause.

Here, again, unless you are in the top income echelon, you are not immune to a faltering economy (Even if you are in the highest bracket and you prosper while the rest of the people suffer, you have to live in the society you create. There is no escaping from that, and denial will not change reality).

"When someone tells me something as part of a private conversation, I think all details of that conversation are private, whatever level of relevance you may think they have. "

I think the story is wrong anyway, because what you described makes no business sense.

"How about this? Compared to the way it used to be, little is made in America anymore."

Change "little" to "less" and I am in agreement.

"Fact: millions of workers have lost higher paying jobs for lower-paying service sector jobs."

Please back this up with your very best evidence.

"Fact: Many high tech jobs, including engineering jobs, have been outsourced as well."

And many have been insourced, some right down the street from me.

"Better to believe those cooked Bush government statistics that you worship"

Provide your best evidence that the numbers are cooked, or that they should be seen as "Bush's".

"Here's a suggestion, Jake: Why don't you do a tour of Kenosha, Flint, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Akron, Cleveland, Toledo and some of the other areas devastated "

How strange that you cherry picked the very worst areas. Although I know people in Pittsburgh, it's really not so bad there. I toured Youngstown and it *is* bad.

"recite to the unemployed workers "

I wouldn't change anything I said, and I woul emphasize especially to them to expect better results from actions they take themselves than from anything the government would provide.

Jakenewton wrote: "Why do you need their permission to name the company? How on earth would that jeporadize you or him? Yes it's just an anecdote then."

I'm glad I'm not your friend, Jake. Let me explain: When someone tells me something as part of a private conversation, I think all details of that conversation are private, whatever level of relevance you may think they have.

Yes, it's just an anecdote then, and therefore to be dismissed. Better to believe those cooked Bush government statistics that you worship -- which are largely culled from self-serving numbers-crunching that hardly reveals the true miserable economic picture.

Here's a suggestion, Jake: Why don't you do a tour of Kenosha, Flint, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Akron, Cleveland, Toledo and some of the other areas devastated by manufacturing jobs shifting overseas and recite to the unemployed workers of Chrysler, GM, Ford, and all the other companies that have closed their plants everything you've posted here. Call it the "Things Aren't As Bad As You Think" or the "Best Objective Data" Tour. Especially include those lines about "economic trends always have a tendency to adjust. They accelarate, decelarate, reverse, etc. Given history, it's not reasonable to expect any particular economic trend to not do as I state, without specific reason," and "I am less likely to care about someone who thinks they aren't doing as well as they should who sits around blaming the government or politicians. Yes there are genuine hard cases, but I believe that most of the time the best thing an individual can do is to directly take action that will improve their own specific case." I'm sure they'll love those little nuggets of wisdom, particularly the guys who have gone from making $26 an hour on the assembly line to working for just above minimum wage.

When you get out of the hospital, please come back here and post your reflections on your speaking tour.

Regardless of what we believe or prefer to believe, the same cause/effect sequence will ensue. It is not necessary to believe one way or another, Jake, because the results of our action (or inaction) will prove the truth or fallacy or the same.

If we are dependent on what China (or any other country) does for our prosperity, we are in their hands, and at their mercy, meaning a lack of self-sufficiency.

Fact: millions of workers have lost higher paying jobs for lower-paying service sector jobs.

Fact: Many high tech jobs, including engineering jobs, have been outsourced as well.

Fact: Americans are working more hours to provide for the essentials. Real wages have just not kept pace with inflation over the years. With rising gas prices, we will be paying even more for essentials.

Fact: Medical costs are outrageously high, while the ranks of the uninsured and under-insured are growing.

Prediction: If we DO go into a deep recession, we will not rebound quickly, until or unless we decrease outsourcing and increase our manufacturing base. And I agree, even in-sourcing will be helpful then.

Many of those 'results' are unfolding at present, and I'm not sure just looking at figures will in itself reveal the magnitude of what we're headed for. So I'd say it might well be prudent to hope for the best while preparing for the 'worst.' This essentially means paying down your debts and 'investing' in stability wherever you may find it.

How about this? Compared to the way it used to be, little is made in America anymore.

Plants are closing left and right, ghost-plants, visible as one threads through this country, are everywhere.

But my dental floss was Made In The USA. Big deal.

Are a few things still manufactured here? Sure.

"I suppose you think our huge trade deceit is not a problem either."

You have to compare the trade gap to something, such as GDP, to properly assess the trend. Same as debt and budget deficit, the raw dollar amount by itself lacks meaning.

"Again, I ask you: how long can we expect to consume more that we produce?"

A monetary trade deficit does not mean that we "consume more that we produce". It's more involved than that.

"What do YOU personally buy (other than some of your foods) on a regular basis that is made in the USA?"

What relevance does my personal anecdote have on the conversation, which is about the economy in general?

"And it's interesting that you say the things we buy everyday "only looks at a narrow part of the economy as a whole."

"Is that really so?"

Yes, the retail sector is only a part of the overall economy.

"Static facts are less important than the trends, "

Agreed. And economic trends always have a tendency to adjust. They accelarate, decelarate, reverse, etc. Given history, it's not reasonable to expect any particular economic trend to not do as I state, without specific reason.

Jake, I also noticed you avoided my question: What do YOU personally buy (other than some of your foods) on a regular basis that is made in the USA? This is what I mean as first-hand knowledge.

Yes, and the example about Toyota employing American workers supports my other point. Much of the manufacturing here now is done by foreign companies. However, even some of those, like AVX have moved/ are moving to China. Oh, and I almost forgot, the Siemens plant that's been here for 20+ years (manufacturing high power switching equip), has recently packed its bags up and left (to China?). Admittedly, that is still from my narrow, first-hand perspective. Probably, there are other Simians plants doing the same.

And it's interesting that you say the things we buy everyday "only looks at a narrow part of the economy as a whole."

Is that really so?

I suppose you think our huge trade deceit is not a problem either. Again, I ask you: how long can we expect to consume more that we produce?

Static facts are less important than the trends, and I'd like to remind you that the system taking away our jobs is still in place; if CAFTA passes, this trend will accelerate.

And to CraftyZan:

I also build and repair computers for myself and others. And, by far, every part I use is either made in China or somewhere else. Semiconductor manufacturing has markedly shrunk in the US.

chessgame, that stat is very nice. However, no where in this thread do you see me championing the idea that the economy is booming. Specifically, I objected to the lie that we don't manufacturee anything in the US anymore. So I'm not interested in your straw man.

"I don't have permission from my friend to provide those kind of details, so you can just dismiss this as an anecdote proving nothing."

Why do you need their permission to name the company? How on earth would that jeporadize you or him? Yes it's just an anecdote then. Sample size = 1.

"One needs to look around and listen to people to get a grasp of their hardships,"

That's a great idea, but you would need to do so in a systematic way. The problem with anecdotal evidence is well known.

"Outsourcing has dramatically transformed this economy, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it. "

What about insourcing? The fact that Toyotas are assembled here, that German base Siemens company has a *huge* presense right up the street from me, no one around here wants to talk about that.

And you are right, you don't need a rocket science to see past our own biased observations and conclusions. We would need some economists to compile meaningful data and most importantly convey it in laymans terms to the population. Example, for those who claim that outsourced jobs are replaced by "low paid service sector" jobs, what would be the very best evidence to support that?

As for politicians, ooliticians on all sides are notoriuosly bad at understanding or correctly communication economic issues to the voters, and voters generally don't know much either.

"If you do not care"

Like you, my capacity to care has limits. I am less likely to care about someone who thinks they aren't doing as well as they should who sits around blaming the government or politicians. Yes there are genuine hard cases, but I believe that most of the time the best thing an individual can do is to directly take action that will improve their own specific case.

Support for Jake:

There was just a report this morning on CNN that inflation (not counting energy and food prices) is only a little over 2%, and a little over 4% with gas and food factored in. This means that Bernake is free to lower interest rates, once again.

So you see, the sky is not falling after all.

All right, Jakey, US exports are booming, and the trade deficit with China is a farce. The tides, as your stats show are beginning to be reversed. And I'm glad it hasn't hit you personally--yet.

Take your statistics and tout the Wall Street and government line if you like, BUT if you're not sharing in their elite status, you're being fooled my friend, especially if you can't see past the numbers. Numbers do not lie per-say (I know, I'm kind of a math geek myself). However, numbers can be spun to reflect what the spin-meisters want them to.

One needs to look around and listen to people to get a grasp of their hardships, and realize that what goes around usually comes around.

Outsourcing has dramatically transformed this economy, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it. And being overly enamored with numbers is the same as burying your head in the sand.

Since I'm not sure what you do for a living, I cannot say if what is happening affects you or not. You must have noticed, though, that prices for staples, such as food, have steadily been on the rise. For those who have a family, we're really beginning to feel the pinch.

If you do not care, then it's probably best you go back and bury your head in the sand, or continue to pursue the hard numbers to get your info. When you're satisfied you got the answers, then come on back and compare notes. If you are correct and things are getting better, I'll gladly eat crow as you gloat. Better for me swallow my pride then go down the tubes. For now, though, I do not see trends, such as the falling dollar, and rising gas prices as a benefit to you or anyone else, but, please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Jakenewton wrote: "Could you provide more detail on this please, such as the name of the company? Thank you."

No, I can't, Jake, since I was told that in a private conversation and I don't have permission from my friend to provide those kind of details, so you can just dismiss this as an anecdote proving nothing. I've got another fifty such anecdotes that will also prove nothing to you. I suppose you'll just have to experience it for yourself, and then you can tell your mournful anecdote to someone else, who can then dismiss it as an anecdote proving nothing. We all know only hard, cold statistics show the real truth -- until you become one of them.

Mark Twain once said, "There are lies, damn lies and statistics."

But perhaps Twain is wrong -- we should all just ignore our lying eyes, put our brains on hold, and succumb to the wonderful soft comfort of the Bush Administration's official statistics of how peachy everything is going. We know they would never lie to us for their own ends!

TreeFitz (March 12th, 2008 8:43 pm), I've lived below the poverty line as well at times and understand exactly what you mean, but please cut Barbara a break -- she was trying to show a side of American life few people know or ever think about, even if she did have the option of returning to more comfortable circumstances when she was finished.

Catch (March 12th, 2008 10:03 pm), in some states they are releasing violent criminals to make sure there is plenty of room for druggies and dealers. In California, the Feds made sure 'Enemy of the State' Tommy Chong served his full hard-time sentence for selling pipes over the Internet, while the state complained of not having enough room to house real criminals. It's called Republican justice.

Kalia (March 12th, 2008 11:19 pm) is right -- while we may be sinking fast, Iraq and Afghanistan are complete hell-holes, mostly created by our interference and occupation.

MiMiCcS (March 12th, 2008 11:30 pm), the quality of some imports, especially from China, is also inferior to the product that was previously manufactured in the US. It's not only the lead paint on the toys, but also the toys themselves that are often badly fabricated and fall apart.

I have one question: If, say, Toyota manufactures a truck in, say, a plant in Alabama, and then ships that truck overseas, is that considered an American export?

MAO MART- Always outsourced to communist slave labor- ALWAYS.

We are waist deep in the big muddy- of Recession that is. Why do the professional liars like BUSH et al call it an "economic slowdown"? I no longer use common words like "death". I prefer the sound of the term- Metabolic Cessation! If you can't beat them on the facts, Baffle them with BS!!!

"Well, we've established what your profession is."

It was a joke, dumbass.

"No, but I actually get paid by "teh neocons" to participate in this forum. LOL."

Well, we've established what your profession is.

"Do your own homework Jake. Go to the store, Target, Wal-Mart or another of your choice. Ignore the American brand names and look at the country of manufacture. "

That would only look at a narrow part of the economy as a whole.

"Gee, I hate to intrude upon all the talk with fact, but you can find US exports by category online. Here's the monthly totals for Jan 08."

It's admirable that you support your side with data, but the data you post doesn't show a change, but rather a snapshot. It's often hard to get the data you are looking for from BLS, Commerse department, etc.

"True, Jake, boards do not always contain factual knowledge, but manufacturing jobs are really going down the tubes. Government figures may reflect some of what is going on, but many of us in trenches know it firsthand."

I agree it's especially hard when tough times hit you personally. But as we talk about it in places such as here, we must at least some of the time put aside the emotion and try our best to look at the best objective data we can and to make the best sense of that.

"Jake, you write that clothing is made here. Are there REALLY some textile plants still here?"

Yes, there is a knitting factory a fewmiles from me, it's a small business from what I see. I once was there watching them make tube sox. I know that for the clothing industry it may be exceptional.

Check out
http://www.usstuff.com/prodlist.htm
for list of US made products.Gives good explanation whether its made or assembled in US.
I live in Tokyo and whenever I go back to the US I buy a pair of US-made Red Wing shoes! They are 3 or 400 bucks here! (best shoes in the world!) Next time I will check this list and shop only US stuff when visiting.

gdphillips

Yes, and don't forget Caterpillar Corp. sends bulldozers to Israel for military use. Two years ago Rachel Corrie-the American peace activist was killed by an Israel military bulldozer built by Caterpillar when she attempted to block the demolition of a Palestinian home in Gaza. Exporting death and destruction.

Some struggle to survive.
Some struggle to pay the rent.
Some struggle to send their kids to college.
A few struggle to get or stay rich.
The ones that laugh and smile while they struggle are the fortunate ones.

Just a little experiment at my desk: Staples: Made in China, Liquid Paper white out: thailand, Staples: China, 1 hole punch: China, Dell Keyboard: China, Sharp Caluclator: China, Reinforcement Labels: china, Cisco Phone: China- Sharpie Pen: AMERICA!!...so is my boston Pencil Sharpener. Amazing. All of this stuff is made AND shipped overseas... and for what? Greater profits. Greed. How does this continue to be reality? That those in power don't care about the common good-... yet, nothing ever changes... How did this happen?

KALIA

i agree with your comments. it's such a shame that americans have to cut back on their shopping. oh dear, what a pity, never mind.........they haven't spent the past 5 years with bombs raining down, water shortages, electricity cuts, suicide bombers, cholera outbreaks, death squads, lack of medicines and the list goes on........however, in the future they might just have to contend with these things.

My priorities are my computer (for which I learned to make my own repairs, a $150 savings per incident) and my garden which is going hydroponic next month to augment my food supply. I do have a cable modem connection which is actually cheaper for me than a dial up as I need my phone free cuz I am ill. I buy clothes, except undies and socks, at thrift stores. For some reason, you can't seem to FIND socks at thrift stores, and buying other's underpants just is begging for um...

Jake, you write that clothing is made here. Are there REALLY some textile plants still here? I live in NC, where just about all textile manufacturing was outsourced. I used to work part time security at one of those factories (where various types of fabrics were made), and when I drive by now, I see a dead facility. Ironically, they still have their 'outlet,' but the prices are much higher there now, and bargains are rare. You can find better deals at target and wal-mart because the origin of the goods is the same.

We as a people need to take back what has been taken from us. Its time to kindly escort the folks who have grown fat from ego and greed from there illisionary edifices of power. We start with the K Street Corridor which seethes with a glutinous stench of corporate fascists who have enslaved humanity since time immemorial. The next is the Federal Reserve-the banker who have started many wars to increase profit and who have also enslaved us. The next are the finger puppets of the Whitehouse and Congress. They do the bidding of the puppet masters which I have already mentioned. Its time to be free. Its time for us to take charge of our inalienble rights. Its time to wake up.
I have abbroggated my parental rights to the state by sending my children to an institution that has taught them not to think but to not question authority and to be good consumers/wage slaves. I'm trying to repair what's been done. Its not easy.

We were given a docuemnt that tells us what to do when un bridled power, ego, greed goes unchecked.
Its time to use it.

Declaration of Independence
When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident:

That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.

True, Jake, boards do not always contain factual knowledge, but manufacturing jobs are really going down the tubes. Government figures may reflect some of what is going on, but many of us in trenches know it firsthand.

Not saying we should be a 'Cassandra' about it, but lets not delude ourselves either. Without a change in the 'free trade' policy, these trends will only escalate, and the 'we do not make anything anymore' statement WILL be true even, if as you say, it is an exaggeration at present (which first hand knowledge makes it hard to believe. America may indeed make things, but just not the things I buy everyday at prices my family and I can afford. Tell us what items you buy everyday that are still produced here? We're listening).

Thanks namaste, and you're right about the secret. Without self-understanding the fulfillment of desire will not bring happiness; often, it will bring just the opposite. The thrill and excitement of possessing, and gaining possessions cannot bring one inner peace and freedom.

what do we make in the usa?: monopolies, financial derivatives, predatory corporations, corrupt politicians, wars and weapons of mass destruction, and an smug ignorant irrational population.

the american lifestyle is over, "glad" I'm old enough to maybe not experience the whole house of cards fall into a state that will make pre-bush afganistan look good

Rather than taking that rebate come Summer and buying a foreign produced product, I would suggest you take $100 and send to a candidate of your choosing who has proposed policy that would address this economic issue along with others that concern so many Americans.

Gee, I hate to intrude upon all the talk with fact, but you can find US exports by category online. Here's the monthly totals for Jan 08. I found this at http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/www/press.html

If this turns out ugly on the web, you can find what's below there in PDF, TXT or XLS formats
Note the incredible concentration in certain areas. For instance, when I hear "US Exports are up", I think Boeing. Their selling of big airplanes is what drives a lot of the number under "transportation" which is the leading category and a third of the entire total for the month. Also note the category of "Re-exports" which is about 10% of the total. That's just us bringing something in from China and then shipping it somewhere else. That creates some jobs loading and unloading shipping containers, but that's about it.

Numbers are all in millions. So the total in the first line below is 99 billion dollars. The trade deficit for the month is around 57 billion, so we brought in about 160 billion while we were shipping this out. The charts showing trade def by month on the same website show the change in the value of the dollar as that trade def has gone from about 67 billion a month down to about 55 billion a month.

Total 99,355.5

Summary:

Food and live animals 6,255.2

Beverages and tobacco 367.4

Crude materials,
inedible except
fuels 6,133.4

Mineral fuels,
lubricants and
related materials 4,948.5

Animal and vegetable
oils, fats
and waxes 249.6

Chemicals and related
products, n.e.s. 13,546.2

Manufactured goods
classified chiefly
by material ,500.3

Machinery and
transport equipment 36,112.9

Miscellaneous manufac-
tured articles 8,940.9

Commodities and
transactions not
classified elsewhere
in SITC 4,122.5

Reexports 10,178.6

This mass consumer market that we have been in should be rethought. People need jobs but how much [stuff] do we really need. When I go to garage sales most people can't even use their garage's because they are full of the overflow of [stuff]. Many have resorted to rented storage unit's. Having looked at some of these, I would say the content's are not worth more than a couple month's of the rent they are paying on the unit's.
Call it socialism or what ever you want, but we need a way to employ people in meaningfull jobs with benefit's that don't add to our further inundation with [stuff]
Our resources should be spent on cleaning the place up, making it less toxic. Move towards a more sustainable model. Move towards a more efficient way of housing and moving people to where they want to be. There is plenty of work to be done. Let's do it smart and put our labor and financial resources to work in such a way that will make us happier and more self sufficient.

The poster who thought that putting "Made in the USA" labels on to Chinese goods was deceptive is mistaken. The labels are 100% made in the USA. It is important to get this right and it is based on "I did not have sex with that woman" which was also 100% legally correct.

#
jakenewton March 13th, 2008 8:46 am

""jakenewton, Is your real name Rumsfeld?"

No, but I actually get paid by "teh neocons" to participate in this forum. LOL."

That I believe.

Lobo Gris

chessgames56 -- You are so perceptive! Yes, we are really POGO'd to the max, and that's the deliciously wicked trap of their hiding evil so well.

It is sometimes true that "The 'new age' movement is a subtle promoter of what is deleterious, … [that] there is really no such thing as good and bad."

I am having an awakening here, that might clarify how the science of "Ponerology" is consistent with certain of the new age thinking.

(1.) IF we assume that "The Secret" and Abraham-Hicks.com belief of the LAW of ATTRACTION, is ALWAYS TRUE.
(2.) THEN the only way that this EVIL can exist in our shared world is that we the people, have collectively ASK'ed it into (existence in) our world, and geo the inferior (Inc.) is what we've RECEIVED.
(3.) The American people are really completely behind and wanting this evil, subliminally, or it wouldn't be HERE.
(4.) The difficulty herein, is that the wanting and asking, are consistent with what the psychopathetics want - but ironically inconsistent with the long established morals, principles, beliefs, and constitutional protections.
(5.) The lying cancerous core of rethuglican power manipulation, greed and vampiric sucking away of our life's energies - and the soul of this country - is EQUIVALENT to one of us creating a disease in our own bodies.
(6.) The cure is to get EVERYONE to clearly re-establish their principles and forcefully align their errant thinking (make WANTING & ASKING the same), so that knowledge of they've created can be used as feed back to encourage the next cycle of asking for the less-EVIL items.
(7.) Progressively, as a slow process of alignment has been worked upon us over decades - but needn't take any longer than getting people to really know what they've been doing.

I know the above is somewhat sloppy thinking, and only a start, as I'm very new to fully aligning the LAW of ATTRACTION in my own life. But I do know deep down, with a obdurate certainty, that lasting changes have occurred in me. As evidence, anyone who's been reading my postings in the last month may have also noticed the difference from last year's postings.

We don't need all 300 million to envision world peace, but if a committed group of even 1 million would all practiced the "Art of Deliberate Creation" consistently on these issues, I'm certain that the rats would soon find themselves staring at each other in disbelief, as they're carted off to the new McMansion (with bars). We should be happy that they've made so many jails, as we sure do need them now.

Also, the strengthening of laws against Lying and cheating (with immediate hard and binding punishments) is the best mechanism to catch these psychopaths, before they can this type of damage again. Get their scruffy butts' into the penal system early, and they want be able to get later into public service.

Let's have a 1-strike law for this, as it really is the only method to separate out the crazies in society before they do massive and hidden evil (blending in so well as they do). Besides, they're drumber than the average citizen, and only advance through manipulation of those conned into aiding their game. If we branded them with a "P" on their forehead, we'd always know not to trust their words ever again (avoid the trickster).

¿ What do you bright people think ?

Namaste
… … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … & … ML King … … Inspiration … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — MLK

Those Asian sweatshops aren't sweatshops because they want to be, but because the big companies that place the big orders demand it. They force producers to lower their prices until some can barely make it. Some decide not to take those kinds of orders but it is very difficult to find sufficient and steady buyers for products at prices that allow the supplier and producer, including employees, to make a decent living. Of course, there are unscrupulous business owners that are willing to underpay emnployees, but that is in addition to the low-balling coming from purchasers in the US. I live in Asia and have watched first-hand as a friend who has a business has tried to get orders that allowed him to make even as much as a penny profit per item on orders that are usually under 10,000 items, after requiring free samples and last minute product changes with no additional payment. He has not taken these kinds of orders but other obviously have. A possible incentive for shoddy products and defective ingredients? If the buyers would pay a decent amount, then the quality and quality of life would go up and all would benefit. So just remember that it isn't always and only the Chinese who are forcing the poor American buyers to take the oh so cheap prices, but it often is the other way around.

jakenewton March 12th, 2008 11:27 am

"" We don't make anything in the US anymore."

Of course we do. In fact, with the weak dollar, our exports are up substantially, lowering the trade gap."

Do your own homework Jake. Go to the store, Target, Wal-Mart or another of your choice. Ignore the American brand names and look at the country of manufacture. Here's a clue, go to Target. They have a row of about ten different coffee pots, all with U.S. brand names but only one is made in the U.S. As for your claim that exports are up, I'm sure some of those U.S. named manufactured in China items are exported for sale to other countries. Maybe good for the corporate bottom line but does nothing to create high paying manufacturing jobs here.

Lobo Gris

"As to whether we produce anything anymore, or exaggerate it in a phrase is really a straw man. "

I disagree. There are many on these boards and ones similar who are not very informed, and when the lies or exagerations are repeated enough they particularly are susceptible to just beleive it when the truth is otherwise. Then they go out and vote maybe. We *do* have manufactoring in the US. Near me are automobile, specialty metals, pharmacutical, and clothing factories. McDonalds jobs are *not* counted as part of the manufacturing sector, as I just proved.

Jake, as you have noted, manufacturing is on the decline, and the influx of undocumented workers on the rise. The vast majority of jobs that have been created (if I have my facts straight) have been service sector jobs. As to whether we produce anything anymore, or exaggerate it in a phrase is really a straw man. There are certain jobs that are not easily exported, such as the production of certain medical supplies, but just about everything else that can be exported is. The reason? Primarily because, even those who wish to remain, cannot compete with Asian sweatshop goods. Ironically, it is foreign companies that comprise a big part of what is left of manufacturing! So I guess in a way 'we' still do produce stuff.

The bigger question here is: can any nation indefinitely consume more than it produces?

I'm not sure what you do for a living, Jake, but no job or service can continue or prosper if no one has the funds to pay for it, and the loss of production, directly or indirectly affects EVERYTHING.

Some have pointed that the weapons industry is a booming one, but that can only be true of a world that is in a self-destructive mode, which is world where just about every country lives in fear of its neighbors. Additionally, have you noticed that we often wind up fighting our biggest arms customers? Definitely a win-win for the military industrial complex.

"US Bureau of Labor Statistics definition of manufacturing:"

mwb26810, did you even read that document? The line you reference regarding hamburgers is listed under "Sector 72, Accomodations and Food Services". Ergo, you ar proving that those jobs are in the service sector and not manufacturing. The manufacturing jobs are alearly listed as being in sectors 31, 32, and 33.

At least you tried to post supporting information for your claim, unlike others. Too bad it backfired.

"Anyone who thinks our manufacturing base is fine, "

Who said that?

"jakenewton, Is your real name Rumsfeld?"

No, but I actually get paid by "teh neocons" to participate in this forum. LOL.

Namaste, one the greatest achievements of 'evil' is to pass itself off as being good. The 'new age' movement is a subtle promoter of what is deleterious, in that it essentially asserts that God is the creator of everything, including 'evil,' meaning there is really no such thing as good and bad.

We also should remember that an iron hand often hides behind a velvet (psychopathic) glove, and that unless we, ourselves, are free of ego, we are a part of it, as when we return hate with hate. It is so close to us, that we often miss it. The implication almost always is that WE are good, while it is THEY who are bad.

grenat, your last post, while, uh, colorful, is rather devoid of any information. The question I posed to the group, for the sake of clarity, is why do people so often repeat gross, superlative exagerations such as "We don't make anything in the US anymore." Perhaps a better question would be if whether the "progressive movement" or any movement for that matter is well served by this practice?

Treefitz please do not be so critical of Nickel and Dimed.

Maybe you skipped the intro. In the introduction the author acknowledges that she has education, income, a body built by a life time of healthy food, medical care and dental care and the ability to bail our at any time to another life. If she had a medical emergency, for instance, she could go get treatment. She knows that poor people are damaged, tired, stressed and trapped in a way she could never be.

Still her book gives voice to situations that poor people rarely have the time nor tools to describe. It exposes the kind of "jobs" that are being created to replace good manufacturing jobs and illustrates the points made by McDee and others above.

Economists count all jobs as the same whether they have good pay and benefits or not, are permanent or temp, and often full time or part time. This type of pig-headed bean counting disguises the recession that has been growing among working people for the last 40 years.

We're even losing the burger-jobs. Some McD's are reportedly using operators in India to take orders at drive-ups. At least the "closers" are still needed to insert the food-like disk between the bread-like grease protectors, but how long before that part is fully automated?

A bright note: global depression may buy us a little more time on climate change.

Here's a good way to "recycle" dental floss - clean the crud off of it when you're done, then go outside and hang it on the branches of trees. Birds will use it to build their nests this spring (if there are any birds left!).

She definitely speaks of the upper middle and higher classes, economically speaking, of the USA, for her use of 'we' certainly does not apply to all of the USA.

Many of the sweatshop jobs once were in the USA; my mother and many other U.S. workers, f.e. My father was paid less, due to the state of Mass. being so damn cheap that they had to pay state employees poverty or below poverty wages, perhaps to quiet down the many greedy taxpayers (maybe?); and that was not sweatshop work, for it was not shop work one way or another. He worked as a farmhand and a very experienced one starting on day #1, but the state wouldn't pay above slavery wages.

Oh, the two working full-time and also each working 20hr a week part-time jobs for several years, this permitted them to finally achieve reasonable standards, after selling their house in Mass. and buying a piece of farmland (formerly that) where the owner was a very generous, humble, ... man, and sold the property, around 125x200+ feet, for $2,000 in 1976, after which my father, two of my uncles, and myself constructed most of the structure and all of the foundation, thereby keeping the cost affordable. I grew up child of poverty, but still had a fishing rod, a bicycle, ... a pair of hockey shin pads after a few or more years of being hit in the shins with pucks, eventually a helmet and gloves to complete the partial outfit, making our rink ourselves on a swamp; and I got by alright, no problems with this aspect at all. Now if I couldn't have gotten a fishing rod, then I would've been a little troubled about this lack.

PUNISHED they should be, according to the author? I don't think she means to be understood to this extent, but she sure seems to like to write in terms that treat all USA'ns as very much the same, when reality is that there's MUCH disparity; including for whities. We are among these whities.

Slave wager my father was, we had to live in the poorest part of Woonsocket, R.I., when I was 4, until one day it was clear that mom had to absolutely get a job. My father came home after work one day and she told him it was cold and the kerosene furnace wasn't producing any heat, so he checks the can, looks into it, and then looks at my other, while pulling out his wallet and opening it, to say that he could afford to go get some kerosene or food, but not both. And he had to have a car to commute to work given he was working at the Mass. state hospital farm at this time.

She replied that that was that, she had to get a job and help out, to which his ego responded that he preferred she didn't; he wanted to be able to fend for the family, etc. Next day she told me to be good, she had to leave me alone for a short time in order to go up the street to apply for a job, and promptly returned. And she got the job, which permitted her to help him to finally get us out of that poverty situation; still low, even very low income, but certainly better than before.

I DO NOT THINK the author means to be treating all USA'ns as if we're all the same; just that she writes in this manner.

The article opens with the following.

"How much lower can consumer spending go? The malls are like mausoleums, retail clerks are getting laid off and AOL recently featured on its welcome page the story of a man so cheap that he recycles his dental floss–hanging it from a nail in his garage until it dries out."

IS IT BECAUSE he's 'cheap', or very poor; was this possibility verified? And then there's the question of where the dental floss is actually made; is it from more offshored U.S. jobs? If yes, then maybe he's not cheap after all; maybe he's a "touch" patriotic, caring for the human rights of his fellow citizens (and non-citizens but still full, enough, residents).

Additionally, what's the floss made from; is it biodegradable, environmentally safe material? I know it's safe to use in our mouths, but then we don't apply it there for more than around 1 minute.

Iow, I am not sure the man's being actually 'cheap'. His reasons might have nothing at all to do with accumulating wealth. And perhaps instead of saving money, he uses the money he gradually saves from reusing his floss to go spend it where local citizens are employed but in businesses needing some customers in order to keep operating, so employing people [in] the USA. If he's poor and does this with his meager savings, then it's better than enriching huge, rich, imperialist-West corporations that offshored MANY U.S. jobs and unemployed MANY U.S. workers, all for the sake of MAMMON. He couldn't buy more than a coffee or piece of pie, say, but if enough people did this when MANY are stopping, then it might actually work out to save some peoples' jobs.

She goes on to say:

"Already, as the recession or whatever it is closes in, people have stopped buying homes and cars and cut way back on restaurant meals. They don't have the money; they don't have the credit; and increasingly they're finding that no one wants their money anyway. NPR reported on February 28 that more and more Manhattan stores are accepting Euros and at least one has gone Euros-only."

MAYBE HE'S ONE OF THOSE MANY VICTIMS; perhaps this is his reason, or one of them.

The author should carefully verify what his reasons are, before trying to mock him worldwide, imo. She's evidently never known [poverty] herself, and she did not say that she verified why he does this, so I assume she hasn't verified.

The only people making money from floss sales are the big corporations making this stuff, and they make a LOT more than only this, so even if these corporations stopped making floss, the employees could easily be given other work, instead of unemployed.

He does that, some, if not even many, dig for food to eat out of garbage of other people, restaurants, and grocery stores, the same happens for clothing, etc.; all these abominably CHEAP people, "oh my God, the earth is going to suddenly cease to exist because the poor don't buy new dental floss and food or clothing when they're dirt poor". And we should add the poor who look for refundable cans and bottles in other peoples' garbage, parks, etc., to try to make a little money for themselves. I had to do it, and based on the author of this article, I should be condemned to perdition and worldwide ridicule; just because I was this poor and only due to the mammon imperialist-west worshipers offshoring jobs in the high-tech industry, and importing hundreds of thousands or millions of foreign "temps" to not fill in a shortfall, but to [REPLACE] U.S. workers. Doesn't matter what my reasons may be, I should be condemned for eternal ridicule anyway; according to the author of this article.

When our prejudices kick in, then it's always a good time to start by [questioning], both our views and morals, and the subject we're passing judgement on, FIRST. We can then be surprisingly ENLIGHTENED to a whole new understanding of [reality].

Ever carry seven grocery bags of mostly glass (empty but still glass) beer and pop bottles; have any idea how heavy that is to carry on foot for even nearly a mile, how long it takes, etc? And you want to do it all in one trip, for if you attempt multiple trips, then while you're on one, what you've left stashed away behind you someplace might be spotted by another poor person, and then you come back to learn that you spent a lot of time, hours gathering all these refundables so that you can get some food, and all for nothing.

I HAVE!

Sad news though, what's happening in the retail and restaurant sectors, for these have been, so far, among the last-hope jobs in the USA. If these also GO, in addition to high-tech, etc., etc., etc., then WOW, this ride is a serious one; it'll be rough. It may do the USA a lot of good in the longer term, but not without CHAGRIN, difficulties, and of third-world kind, though I've been gradually becoming accustomed to it for ... too many years already; and it's not easy to adjust to, particularly when we have university ed. and around ten years of experience as computer professionals, etc. Oh, in addition to everyone around you being economically comfy; all in my vicinity, very nearly all anyway, having more than they [need].

Oh well, born in capitalist West, to progressively be killed by it, I suppose.

Maybe dental floss-recycler she refers to is doing this only due to being cheap, but it's pure and prejudicial speculation, until the real reasons have been verified.

It seems to me the companies playing follow the leader and moving jobs to China are shooting themselves in the foot. If a laid off Electrolux freezer builder can't afford a garage door opener, and a laid off Genie garage door opener can't afford a new freezer, and neither can afford a Lionel hobbie train... and the Chinese don't buy ANY of this stuff... Gonna be lots of empty factories in China as well as in the US.

There was a BS article in the Saturday paper by Cokie and Steve Roberts about how wonderful globalization is. They called Clinton and Obama liars about the need to tweak NAFTA..., and claimed the US is the number 1 exporter... Well, we're #2 now and its mostly basic food products, entertainment, and some high end stuff like aircraft. Everything in the middle is imported, and we have the #1 trade deficit in the world.

Its time for us all to scale down anyway. We can't keep burning 5 times as much fossil fuel per capita than the rest of the world in a Peak Oil / Global Warming world. Time to simplify, as so many posters said above.

A senior, I ran out of heating oil on February 20th this year (it was around this same time last year). I use my space heater to heat with, and put on two sweaters and three shirts to stay warm. There are lots of people who make up this "great land," who are getting shafted. Too bad our own government is so mean-spirited toward the people it is supposed to serve. The idea of rights for corporations is repugnant, as is "free" market. We live a lie.

This is a little off-point, but, despite being on an extremely tight budget, I still go to Whole Foods. I decided long ago that I'd divert my spending to ensuring quality food. So, I drive 1/2 an hour once a week to go to a "locally" grown organic produce market which has the cheapest organic and freshest produce I've ever seen, I buy my beans, rice, etc. from the bins at Whole Foods (cheaper than the grocery store despite being organic), and I make prepare everything I eat from the most basic ingredients. Why drive 1/2 hour to the produce market? While my main concern is avoiding pesticides and getting more vitamins per pound of produce, the produce lasts longer (I don't see my dollars rotting in my refrigerator any more) and I can buy exactly the quantity I'll eat since everything is loose and sold by the pound. Of course, by shopping there where the food has more vitamins, I no longer bother to take grossly overpriced vitamins (grossly overpriced in terms of the effect on your body--minimal). Of course, to support this "extravagance" of buying real food, I have to make meals myself and I buy almost nothing else--I haven't purchased any clothes in a year. Renting $1 movies from the local video store is cheaper (and better) than cable, cell phone was abandoned (I don't need to pay to give others the convenience of reaching me), and soon when I sell my car (paid for, but insurance is too high), I'll learn to navigate the bus system and get exercise by dramatically increased walking. Real wages have been falling for years, a major depression is coming (the Fed's efforts are merely postponing it), but you still can survive quite nicely on less. Once you get over the mindset of working to accumulate stuff to show off to your buddies or so that you can pay others to do the work you don't wanna do (think house cleaning, restaurants, staying in hotels), life becomes much easier.

Remember March 19th, folks. SICKOFITDAY. No work and no shopping.

shakker March 12th, 2008 8:31 pm -- good idea

twoblueday March 12th, 2008 3:58 pm - echoed my sentiments

TreeFitz March 12th, 2008 8:43 pm

thank you,

i read ehrenreich's book and felt exactly the same way as you did. your description summed up my feelings nicely.
i also have lived at/below the poverty line my entire adult life, i find a large amount of commentary about poverty patronizing, it just doesn't express the true feelings/situations of the underclass.

---------------------------

if you buy something, discard something. it's an easy rule that decreases a persons desire to acquire useless objects.learn new ways to adapt to situations.

words like voluntary simplicity and minimalism are powerful, if these ideas were practiced by just %10 of the population - eagerly w/ optimism and understanding (2 concepts that often escape me), we would literally save the planet (remember 100th monkey). one way we-homo sapien sapiens adapt is by sharing creative coping mechanisms w/ other monkeys. 2 tools (books) that helped me understand,

youre money or your life
(www.yourmoneyoryourlife.org/)

Recipes for Disaster: An Anarchist Cookbook (http://www.crimethinc.com/books/)

...peace...

See ALSO:

The Story of Stuff with Annie Leonard
A 20-minute animation of the consumerist society, narrated by Anne Leonard, to view online or download. Includes footnoted script, credits, blog, ...
www.storyofstuff.com/ - 7k -

also on the web at: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9153550196656656736

Mendaciously, the playfully valiant ranger arrives to douse down the fire—-let us give him a name: amen, jakenewton.

Ranger Newton, matching cliche for cliche--clearing out the truth for the befuddled--he asks (trying to sound falsely befuddled himself), "I don't know why people try to say this, or that, what is it today, that I, am acting the fool to make others look foolish for? Huh?"

Huh! Ranger Newton, on the scene, fire-hose in hand, squirts on another day in the sake of emptiness. And he still does not know why "they say it," but in amongst himself he may more often wonder why he said it? For what does Ranger Newton have to lose? Only if God truly is on the right side—-his virginity.

MiMicCS -- Please read the links. We need to understand the missing piece that ties it all together. We really really need people as yourself to paint the BIG PICTURE and raise the torch high so that others can see for themselves

From another thread:

Alex Nosal -- the way to get it back is not clear, but certainly advancing our understanding of how they seized control is important to fighting back. The odds are ~ 4:1 in our favor, based on estimated numbers, but the plan is to adjust that ratio very soon. The true depth of evil is beyond normal pessimistic and ranting crazies ability to conceive of.

One almost needs to be a very experienced mental health professional to wade through the material, but believe you me, it will be worth knowing! This is about cutting edge psychology that has been suppressed, by you can guess who

R E A D

Beside individuals cleansing themselves, we need to get the balance of free thinkers to realize how the psychopaths do it.

You will be shocked, and then it starts to make sense, in a twisted disgusting manner. The reason so much of America is drop dead dumbfounded is a gradual co-opting of our innate competitive culture (over a 100 yr arc) into shivers down the spine immoral acts (condoned by majority).

Essentially they've re-made America in their own images, and made it necessary for most to act psychotically to keep their heads above the water.

Cee Miracles  March 12th, 2008 SAYS READ

Read WITHOUT CONSCIENCE, The Disturbing World of The Psychopaths Among Us" -
Robert D. Hare, Ph.D., before the Psychopaths among us not only
continue disturbing the world, but maybe destroy it.
At least we'll have some understanding of how this all happened as we're being blown away.
Where are you, Rambo?

Cee Miracles — You're so terrifyingly right!

I've just finished the web version of a similar book:
Political Ponerology: A Science on The Nature of Evil adjusted for Political Purposes by Andrew M. Lobaczewski with commentary and additional quoted material by Laura Knight-Jadczyk
This is ALL about the formal study of evil, was initially killed for
US distbn by Mr. Zbigniew Brzezinski in a very cunning way, but the
author re-wrote the whole document.
The psychopathically flawed Polish Communist structure and
mechanisms of Stalin provided the raw material for this important work
of the causation of our current situation of how geo the inferior has
stolen the farm out from under US.
A very excellent web site is stocked with much of the crucial material, for free, including excerpts from Hare's research and
THE PSYCHOPATH - The Mask of Sanity:
http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

The link to Political Ponerology … is in the upper left column of links
Namaste
… … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … & … ML King … … Inspiration … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »

« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — MLK

Wall Street is shaking in it's Guccies. A 2 Billion bailout of the financial system is just another naked attempt to rescue business. (selective socialism in action) People are broke and prices must tumble to be affordable, but will they tumble? Nope, prices are going up. The criminal enterprise we call the U.S. Government is useless.

The judicious application of money is a necessary survival skill. However, as the Dollar falls it might be best for now to make the necessary repairs to important things like your water heater, furnace, plumbing and roof before the dollar buys even less. Once your biggies are fixed begin fixing the small things or replacing them with good used items.

Don't forget your disaster kits.
http://www.redcross.org/services/disaster/0,1082,0_3_,00.html

This article is editorial... it's art. I like art, even if I don't always get it. In fact, if I don't get it, that's my first indication it might actually BE, art. I like humor too. Sarcasm and other subtleties... are a fun way to de-stress and deal with frustration and despair.

Some people don't "get" sarcasm or exaggeration, nor any other such subtleties. These people have "concrete thinking." It's a mental health issue.

Jake's a troll. If you do his research for him and answer his little rhetorical queries adequately, he'll ignore you and go on to someone he thinks he can whip.

Shucks, We make something nice in the part of America I call home. We grow beautiful Sinsimellia and Indica. I suppose God makes it and we only help, but....so sweet.

I went three days and nights w/o food once, I could/can not heat my small apt.

My overweight shopping-loving Amerikans are part of the problem. Budget getting tight? AAAwwwwwwww. Sell your SUV and get a Specialized Mountain Bike.

Time for the 7/24 eating-marathon to end? sosad.

And nice posts too, empirePie, nice your art I say.

We make LOTS OF THINGS in the U.S! We make Humvees and Bradley Fighting Vehicles. We make F-22 "Raptor" jets for 350 million a crack! We make million and millions of small arms weaponry that we export throughout the world. And of course we make nuclear weapons which can be delivered to anyone's doorstep faster that UPS can say "BOOM" by land, sea, air and even space! It's just that we don't see those things on the shelves of WalMart or Home Depot. Try going to arms bazaar sometime if you're worried about lower American productivity and you'll soon realized that we're number one!

Anyone who thinks our manufacturing base is fine, well, never mind.

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts02112006.html

Between 2000 and 2006 "US manufacturing lost 2.9 million jobs, almost 17% of the manufacturing work force. The wipeout is across the board. Not a single manufacturing payroll classification created a single new job.

The declines in some manufacturing sectors have more in common with a country undergoing saturation bombing during war than with a super-economy that is "the envy of the world." Communications equipment lost 43% of its workforce. Semiconductors and electronic components lost 37% of its workforce. The workforce in computers and electronic products declined 30%. Electrical equipment and appliances lost 25% of its employees. The workforce in motor vehicles and parts declined 12%. Furniture and related products lost 17% of its jobs. Apparel manufacturers lost almost half of the work force. Employment in textile mills declined 43%. Paper and paper products lost one-fifth of its jobs. The work force in plastics and rubber products declined by 15%. Even manufacturers of beverages and tobacco products experienced a 7% shrinkage in jobs."

Manufacturing is only 12.4% of GDP, compared to 28.3% in 1953. Of course, manufacturing GDP today is inflated with hedonic adjustments. For example if cars made in the USA are sold at the same average price and in the same numbers, they say the value due to quality impovments has increased by 10%, and so GDP is boosted accordingly. Real GDP is also inflated by manipulating CPI to keep inflation adjustments low.

Moreover, last year an economist, Susan Houseman, discovered that the reliability of GDP has been impaired by offshoring. Houseman found that cost reductions achieved by US firms shifting production offshore are being miscounted as GDP growth in the US and that productivity gains achieved by US firms when they move design, research, and development offshore are showing up as increases in US productivity. Obviously, production and productivity that occur abroad are not part of the US domestic economy.

The US now has fewer manufacturing jobs than it had in 1950 when the population was half the current size. We may still produce more than any other country, much of it on weapons, yet we had a huge advantage that has gradually been diminishing due to globalization, and soon China is expected to overtake us, and China was a 3rd world nation 20 years ago.

So what does the future hold?. Think 3rd world economy, a police state to crack down on rioters who protest over food shortages and poverty. Those border patrols will be to keep you in, and not the illegal immigrants out. Of course, someone will have to do the work the illegal workers have been doing since they will move back to Mexico and default on their sub-prime mortgages, credit card debts and collect their social security checks (Totalization agreement). As Stalin said, those who don't work don't eat. And so it shall soon be in Amerika.

As bad as things may be in good old US o A, it does not compare to the living hell that has been inflicted upon the hapless citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan by American leaders and its willing citizenry.

djwolf: I have waited a long time to hear someone else say this. It is an indication that maybe I am not the only one who sees the obvious.

Thank you.

jakenewton, Is your real name Rumsfeld?

Exports are down throughout Western nations because of Free trade zones and slave labour in the third world.

Right-wing governments have catered to the corporate sector and instead of raising the standard of living in the developing world we are lowering our standards to match theirs.

Globalize unions. Fight for the right of Brazillian auto workers to get a fair day's pay for a fair day's labour. Only then will the Fords you drive be made in Detroit and not in Brazil. What's more, Brazillians will then be able to afford to buy the Fords you make.

Looking after workers, no matter which class of worker we are discussing is looking after yourselves. Help yourselves by demanding global fairness. It's the only way.

Cybro4__You have it dead on right. Our country was in good shape after Clintons eight years and the consumers were doing just fine. If the voters had been smart enough not to put in a religious moron with a war agenda, we could still be doing ok.

We cannot change what has happened to our country, but we can stop all the foolish fighting over trifles and make sure we get a change of administration by knocking Bomb Bomb McCain
out of contention.

If we can get enough voters determined to get a change, it can be done despite fixed voting machines and other tactics to steal the election unless we have a new terror to make war on.

Oh - I nearly forgot. Buy Guns. Lots of them. Lost of really great guns are still made in America instead of someplace else by cheap, unskilled labor! You may need 'em.

This suggests an interesting quandary. When it gets to the point where people can no longer afford to feed themselves and revert to theft, what will the state do with them? The prisons are already full of incarceratees for non-violent offenses (most states seem to release the sex offenders, but hang onto druggies for absurd lenths of time). Think this is a joke? Look at historical precedent going back for at least the past couple of thousand years.

It's a hard rain's a'gonna fall. Truly.

Relocalize.net

"$175,000,000,000,000,000,000"

LOL! Now *that* is funny.

"I highly recommend a 20 minute video called The Story Of Stuff.
It talks about our consumer culture and the damage it does.
http://www.storyofstuff.com/"

Agreed.

The final point of this video, however, is that it is up to us as individuals to change our consumption habits. If we complain about the state of things without changing our personal lives, then we truly are just bitching. I wish Barbara Ehrenreich had concluded with this point.

PFek-lar
Yes, it would seem that the economy is cyclical...
Reagan-Bush tripled our national debt and raped Social Security (there was a surplus).
Clinton was actually able to create a surplus..paying down the national debt.
bush the much less has basically doubled our national debt, reducing taxes on the wealthy, more than quadrupling the price of oil (isn't his "Base" happy) and is borrowing like mad.
Yes, it does certainly appear to be cyclical.

Pfek-lar, you sound like an obtuse moron when you accuse progressives of first bitching about too much consumer spending and then, in Ehrenreich's column, 'bitching', to use your fine language, that we aren't spending enough. It is like you are a complete moron because Ehrenreich never suggested we should spend more, she never hinted that we aren't spending enough. Like most conservatiave morons, Phek-lar, you make up your own baloney and then you sling it and pretend you have made sense.

Ms. Ehrenreich, I am no fan of yours. I think Nickel and Dimed was a facetious, manipulative, fake expose. But this column, it is fantastic. It is so well written it resonates within me like poetry, it reeks of kindness and caring and it makes fantastic points.

I have actually lived below the poverty line. I still do, as a matter of fact. I have been homeless, I have gone without food because I had no funds. The stories you told in Nickel were not good representations of what it is really like to be pool. The framework you used to set yourself up to write that book was manipulative and extremely unconnected to reality. It sounded so pathetic, reading, in Nickel, about you struggling to pay the motel bill and struggling to get crap jobs but the whole time you had access to a way out. Most real poor people would never have made the choices you made in your research, pretend-playing at being poor. You kept yourself completely insulated from the realities of being poor and then you spun it to sell books. The problems of poverty deserve a whole lot better.

But this column, f'ffing awesome. Good on you.

I spent $198.00 for garden seeds. Most are for food. If wages are not increased in the US this is the tip of the iceberg on recession. The money for the empire will be gone too. I am sure the rest of the world will not take revenge on us in our weakened state because of the brilliant foreign relations of Bu$h the inferior, especially our very popular role as liberators in Iraq.

"Take the case of a friend who recently worked at a company where they repackaged Chinese products in boxes labeled in English and shipped them out to Japan. (Products in boxes featuring English are very big in Japan, although many Japanese have no idea what the words mean.) The company was considered one of the state's largest 'manufacturers' and most of the workers made as much as a dollar over minimum wage. "

Could you provide more detail on this please, such as the name of the company? Thank you.

Barbara:

I wonder how long it will take for the 70% MAJORITY Common Population to realize that only the corporate DLC's 20% NEW minority Professional Class and the 10% minority Elite Capitalist Class are the ONLY classes and cultures that will be allowed to have the EUROS in order to shop in the new EURO ONLY STORES. People seem to be totally blind to the fact that the 70% MAJORITY Common Population aren't provided a way to transfer their dollars over into EUROS, only chosen stores and chosen populations. The majority population is going to be left out.

When the corporate government converts to EUROS nearly 30% of the upper population and enough stores to protect those two classes, the Elite Capitalists with the help of the NEW DLC Professional class will be able to easily control the 70% MAJORITY Common Population because the 70% MAJORITY Common Population will not be able to purchase anything. Think about that. No EUROS -- No Purchase. That's when Marshall Law that the conservative right has set up through the Bush administration will be put into effect, because people are not going to be happy, and it won't be pretty.

It is time for the 70% MAJORITY Common Population to get a clue as to what is going on in the United States before it is too late.

You've heard of the long hot summer?

Well, while George Bush is fiddling the tune of anti-terrorist savior, Americans are dying at home due to crime, drugs, poverty, and oil. An American is more likely to be killed by a local problem than by any terrorist.

Think about it. The summer is coming and my teenagers and their friends can't find jobs. Any fool, meaning me, can predict that this summer will see crime, deaths and poverty in the United States at its highest levels. The terrorists have won the war because YOU elected an idiot based on his lies and fear tactics.

The economy is falling and hasn't even seen the beginning of the worst. The Feds are bailing out themselves— afterall the FED is made up of Bankers and they are using taxpayer money lent, no given to them so they can lend it to themselves, charge their organizations a fee, pocket this free money, bail themselves out, while the rest of us poor sap pay the the bill.

When will someone ask, where did the FED get 2 billion? Who is the FED and aren't they just giving taxpayer money to themselves in exchange for the bad loans they made?

America the home of the brave is now America the home of the fool.

And please you flag waving yokels and patriots, don't harp on me. Instead put on an f'n uniform and fight for this country or send you kids to die for Georgie porgie and his sidekick darth vader Dick-head.

Or, better yet, find out the answer to the questions I raised and then check your behind to see if it has been recently used.

Adam Smith's Valley

Yea though I walk through the valleys of greed
Yea though I walk through the swamps of need
Yea though I walk through oceans of inequity
I will fear all evil
And I will savor my fear
For fear is what feeds us
It's the shadow that needs us.

My consumption is anointed with oil
My enemies color up the soil.
Yea it's hard work:

It's hard work…….., Coloring up the soil
It's hard work, plodding through this valley,
While, I wear the 'thou' on my flag,
While, I wear the 'thou' on my flag.

I tired of empty hope words.
For I know my dollar is my virtue that comforts me
And the biggest stick with a loyal staff, are my Mayflower spritzer rod.
For I know pretty soon selfishness will breed equality

There will be a trickle down somewhere.
For I write the history of this valley.
The table is before me
Surrounded by those I smote.

And I will dwell in the shining house
red or blue for four more years.
It's hard work in this valley of 'thou'
Yea it's hard work in this valley of 'thou'

Yea though I walk through oceans of inequity,
I will fear all evil,
And I will savor my fear
For fear is what feeds us.
and consumption is what needs us

Goner (March 12th, 2008 12:01 pm), Cheney hunts quail wherever he wants since they aren't wild birds but stocked and released so he and his buddies can feel like 'real' hunters as they kill. Like everything else about Bush/Cheney, Dick's hunting parties are as phony as fishing in a trout pond so overstocked that you can see the fish jumping over each other for food, and then displaying the photo of all the fish you caught for your friends. Real hunters have a word for people like Cheney -- 'wussies' with a 'P'.

Pfek-lar (March 12th, 2008 1:16 pm) wrote: "The economy is cyclical…get over it!"

Pfek-lar, you should take a tour of all the Rust Belt factories falling into decrepitude that closed years ago, the high-paying manufacturing jobs shipped first to Mexico's 'Maquilladora' and then to sweat shops in Asia. For that matter, why not inform a bunch of unemployed auto workers in person that their high-paying jobs are coming back as they scrape by working at low-paying convenience store jobs? Tell them to 'just get over it!' This economy is indeed 'cyclical' -- in the sense that a flushing toilet is 'cyclical.'

Jakenewton is right -- we are making a ton of money from our exports. Take the case of a friend who recently worked at a company where they repackaged Chinese products in boxes labeled in English and shipped them out to Japan. (Products in boxes featuring English are very big in Japan, although many Japanese have no idea what the words mean.) The company was considered one of the state's largest 'manufacturers' and most of the workers made as much as a dollar over minimum wage. That's how we'll get our economy back on its feet!

At the local 'Tar-zhey' it is impossible to find anything manufactured in America -- the closest thing would be "Assembled in the USA from parts made in ..." And the racks of fancy new electronic games, laptop computers, DVD players and plasma TVs? Gathering dust -- for the first time, the latest gadget inventory isn't selling out as soon as it hits the shelf.

Excellent point, sdw917 (March 12th, 2008 3:26 pm), and the same sort of thing is happening in this country with undocumented workers, although their sircumstances are not quite as grim as those of the Marianas slave shops.

Chessgames56 (March 12th, 2008 4:06 pm), I have heard a similar tale from four different people I know who work in IT or software design, and it's not getting any better.

Frank1569 (March 12th, 2008 4:18 pm), the Patriots cheated to win and then lost the big one.