Hillary Flirting With Fear
The day after Election Day 2004, the punditocracy solemnly agreed that the "values voters" were the decisive factor in George W. Bush's victory. By now, the "values" myth has been repeated so often that it commonly passes for fact.
But in the weeks that followed, a few of us parsed the exit polls and came to a different conclusion: Bush's winning edge was due to the "fear factor," the perception that he could protect the nation from terrorists better than John Kerry. Gradually, that view of the '04 results has become more common. Now my favorite pollster, Pew's Andrew Kohut, says "it is beyond question that concerns about John Kerry's national security leadership, as compared with Bush's, were central to his defeat in 2004."
Yes, there is a lot of evidence that Bush won by computer hacking and other such chicanery, especially in Ohio. But that does not explain why such an unpopular president, running an unpopular war, could even get close enough for vote-tampering to give him a victory. Was it "values" (a code word for conservative religiosity) or national insecurity?
When Democratic strategists Stanley Greenberg and James Carville asked "Why America Wanted Change But Voted for Continuity" in 2004, they came up with the best answer: "A narrative is the key to everything," and the Republicans "had a much more coherent attack and narrative. . . . The president was able to keep the election centered on safety (the terrorist threat) and values, rather than on Iraq and the stagnant economy. Bush asked people to vote their beliefs and feelings, rather than to judge his performance or ideas for the future." The one crucial point they overlooked is that safety is itself a value, indeed often the highest value, especially for conservatives.
When people vote their feelings they tend to opt for the more conservative candidate-even if they don't like his or her policies. The promise of safety overrides every other consideration. That's why a glance back at the last presidential election is so useful for all of us who are keeping a close eye on this year's election. It reminds us that appeals to a traditional mindset centered on security, and the powerful emotions it evokes, can trump even the most persuasive logic.
Democrats ignore that lesson at their peril. But it's a bitter pill for some to swallow. You can watch them struggling with it on the op-ed page of the New York Times, where the bellwether liberal columnists take very different views on the issue.
Frank Rich urges the Democrats to put the war front and center in their campaign because "the mere mention of Iraq is dangerous to Mr. McCain. ... It will be a slam-dunk for Democrats to argue that it's long past time for the Iraqis to stand up on a sensible timetable that will allow the Americans to stand down."
Maureen Dowd leans in the same direction, but she is rather less sure: "The president took the country to war on his gut, exploited our fears and played the patriotism card to advance his political agenda. This time, Americans may prefer cerebral arguments to visceral ones."
Paul Krugman has quite a different view. He acknowledges that "some people [read: Democrats] believe that this election should be another referendum on the war, and, perhaps even more important, about the way America was misled into that war." But he notes that:
polls show that the economy has overtaken Iraq as the public's biggest concern. True, the news from Iraq will probably turn worse again. Meanwhile, a hefty majority of voters continue to say that the war was a mistake, and people are as angry as ever about the $10 billion a month wasted on the neocons' folly. Yet for the time being, public optimism about Iraq is rising: 53 percent of the public believes that the United States will definitely or probably succeed in achieving its goals. So anger about the war isn't likely to be decisive in the election. The state of the economy, on the other hand, could well give Democrats a huge advantage.
Here's a classic example of giving the right advice for the wrong reason. Though public optimism about the war is indeed rising, most of the recent polls still show a majority saying that the U.S. is not getting closer to success. The poll Krugman cites is atypical. Moreover, it's not at all clear that the economy is the public's biggest concern. If you add issues like "terrorism," "national security," and "defense" to "Iraq," in some polls the combined total equals or even outscores the economy as the number one issue on the voters' minds.
Two out of the three campaigns are actively pushing the war back onto center stage. Hillary Clinton recently said: "Since we now know Sen. McCain will be the nominee for the Republican Party, national security will be front and center in this election. We all know that."
Well, we may not all know it yet. Apparently Obama and his people have not heard the message-which was clearly directly against them by Clinton strategists, who think that a focus on national security will be to their advantage in the primary fight. They don't agree with Krugman's claim that "the shift in electoral focus from Iraq to economic anxiety clearly plays to Mrs. Clinton's strengths." They saw the vote-getting power of their "red phone at 3 AM" commercial, and they want to pile it on until they get the nomination.
But the Clinton campaign is playing a very dangerous game. You can almost hear McCain's people licking their lips and saying, "A campaign centered on national security and 3 AM world crises? Bring it on. Make our day on Election Day." Because McCain has one card and one card only to play in this campaign: "No Surrender."
It may not make any logical sense. If all the voters who oppose the war vote against the prowar candidate, he'll be slaughtered. But McCain and his strategists know what all of the Times' liberal pundits, and so many other liberals, so easily forget: It's not about logic or policies. It's about feelings.
The simplistic catch phrase, "No Surrender," taps into a huge reservoir of feelings deeply buried inside millions of American voters. And those feelings run so deep precisely because they are inextricably linked to values. "No Surrender" is not a sensible basis for making policy. But it is a powerful expression of a whole web of values that many Americans cling to for dear life, at a time when they feel that the world around them is swirling faster and faster, moving closer and closer to the brink of moral chaos. "No Surrender" promises that there still is absolute good, absolute evil, and an unbridgeable gap between the two. It guarantees that we are on the side of absolute good and will remain there, as long as we keep on fighting against the evildoers.
That helps to explain how McCain managed to get the nomination, even though he was so widely disliked by the religious right. In those polls that ask people which issue is most important to them, all the classic "values" issues-abortion, gay marriage, and more generic terms like "values," "religion," "morality"-score close to zero if they even show up at all. Start with the simple premise that all of those words and issues serve as symbols of moral certainty in an uncertain world, and you come up with an equally simple conclusion: McCain's "No Surrender" mantra does the symbolic job just as well.
It may be hard for a lot of liberals to wrap their minds around the emotional power of symbolic thinking. They still assume politics is about voting for the candidate who shares your analysis of policy issues. Hence their confident urging to make the war a central issue in the campaign. They know not what kind of emotional-political meatgrinder they are heading into.
It's harder to see why Hillary Clinton's strategists would point her directly into that meatgrinder. They understand the emotional power of national security issues all too well. It's what they are counting on to beat Obama.
But having made those issues central for the primaries, they won't be able to push them into the wings in the general election. Do they really think Hillary can outbid McCain in the contest for evoking feelings of safety and security? If so, they are playing a very dangerous game. And if they lose, it's not just their skins that hang in the balance.
Ira Chernus is Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder and author of Monsters To Destroy: The Neoconservative War on Terror and Sin. Email: chernus@colorado.edu
©2008 Religion Dispatches
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148 Comments so far
Show AllBad test bub, __ it isn't LOGICVAL and it's stupid too. But, very humerous.
riverman101: Leaving aside the accuracy of you claim, I believe a simple matter of sentence construction might have helped KEM PATRICK better understand your point.
Your construction: "nearly all men are in the top 1 % of logic intelect."
Would better have been expressed as "Those in the top 1% of logic intellect are nearly all men."
Pardon me if I'm mistaken, but it occurred to me English may not be your first language and I hoped this might be of some assistance. Best wishes.
Thanks for your considered reply, kathy. I understand that riverman can be perfectly, remarkably offensive, but I don't believe that justifies your implication that men are inferior to women.
Vern wrote: "Actually, I am a woman. You got a problem with that arkitekton?"
No, Vern, I don't have a problem with that. Why do you ask?
~Riverman~, sorry bud, it's over your head now, time to seek professional help.
Oh, all progerssive are pro-choice and the female progressives are usually in the lower 2% of intellect and logic. They should not be allowed to vote, operate vehicles or machinery, or write blogs here, as they are the problem with our society.
I see that I did fail your logic test and am lower than the female progressives, but I'm studying a good book on logic, it's titled, Logic For Male Progressives. But you still need help River. get it before it's too late. Ding Ding.
Already had a great day reading River's comments. How about you? That "lighten up" an order deacon, or a request?
Hey, Kem Patrick,
Lighten up!
You're right, I don't know you. I was merely offering a quote which contained a line that agreed with the last part of your post concerning Geraldine Ferraro' recent statement -- that we are all human beings who are basically alike ("there is one race -- the race of humanity").
Here's another one: "Fatherhood of God -- Brotherhood of man"
Have a good day!
anney, I've been impressed at how appropriate Obama's responses have been in this campaign. Wouldn't it be a relief to have a President who responds appropriately to world situations? We should be so lucky. Do you think most Americans don't even know what an appropriate response looks like?
kathyodat
I will certainly attempt to be more careful ~Anney~. Making a dumb ass mistake here and you hear about it. I deserved the rocks tossed.
Hey ~Riverdude~, I'm honestly afraid that you have banged your head against a wall once too often. You should write a book, I gaurantee you it would sell. You have a very rare talent that is not often seen outside of a mental health facility. Or a "nut house" for politically incorrect terminology. ___ Ding____ding____DONG.
kathyodat
Yes, that does say a lot about Obama's character. Just think what Hillary has messed up. Maybe they could have been a "dream team" if she were a different kind of person, but you don't march up and act superior to or slap the face of someone you might end up being subordinate to or might need later. Actually, nobody smart does that to ANYBODY.
I don't think Obama's into "dominating" other people, just strong leadership.
I was reading a story about Bill Richardson trying to decide who to endorse and he related the following:
Richardson described Hillary Clinton as "enormously capable ... but I did run against her."
Then he focused on Barack Obama, someone he said "I don't know as well. But I think there's
something that is very special about this guy, that is good."
Gichardson related an anecdote from one of the debates:
He had fielded a question and then, as the next point went to another candidate, leaned toward Obama next to him on the stage and whispered, "'Boy some of these debates really boring, aren't they?' Or something like that. And he said, 'Oh god, yeah, you're right.' "
As the two were whispering, a question suddenly veered back to Richardson -- who hadn't been paying attention. "I looked at Obama and he says [whispering] 'Katrina. Katrina.' And I go back and say, 'Well, my three-point plan on Katrina is ...'
"Obama could have thrown me under the bus. But he didn't. So I said, 'Thanks, Obama,' and he said, 'Just listen next time.'"
This to me says a lot about Obama's character, and recently we've been seeing ample examples of Hillary's character. Good thing Richardson wasn't talking to Hillary. I hear she finally threw in the towel and asked Geraldine to get out, who supposedly volunteered to leave the campaign. Too much heat from Obama who pointed out that divisive politics is what this country is tired of. Good for him. And he's not a wimp who folds.
kathyodat
KEM PATRICK
Okay, just don't make that mistake again :-)
kathodat
When you add Iraq to the pot, she got two for two on the warmongering, didn't she?
Hi ~Anney~. I just read the page I was typing from improperly. I got the wrong line, she voted NO on the Tort Reform, which was the next line on the paper. I made a mistake trying to read and type at the same time. Was chewing gum then too.
anney, we can thank Hillary for helping give Bush his excuse for bombing Iran. When she gets it wrong, she really gets it wrong. And her weak excuse that she was trying to give him some negotiating muscle? Since when has Bush ever - EVER negotiated? That's not his style and if she couldn't figure that out, heaven help us if she becomes President.
I've been reading about the Michigan Florida quandary. How about this? Let the candidates spend some time campaigning in the states, which technically hasn't happened, agree on a bunch of polls and apportion the delegates based on that. Sort of an election on the cheap. Nobody can agree on any other solution anyway, and no one wants to spend any money.
kathyodat
More on the Kyle-Lieberman amendment:
Sept 27, the Senate passed the Kyl-Lieberman amendment by a vote of 76 to 22. This bill designates the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) as a terrorist organization. Opponents of the amendment are saying that this amendment could give support to a Bush plan to attack Iran.
Senators who voted against the resolution were Senators Biden, Bingaman, Boxer, Brown, Byrd, Cantwell, Dodd, Feingold, Hagel, Harkin, Inouye, Kennedy, Kerry, Klobuchar, Leahy, Lincoln, Lugar, McCaskill, Sanders, Tester, Webb and Wyden.
Senators Obama and McCain did not vote, and Hillary Clinton voted in favor of the amendment.
Chris Dodd had this to say,
I cannot support the Kyl-Lieberman amendment on Iran. To do so could give this President a green light to act recklessly and endanger US national security. We learned in the run up to the Iraq war that seemingly nonbinding language passed by this Senate can have profound consequences. We need the president to use robust diplomacy to address concerns with Iran, not the language in this amendment that the president can point to if he decides to draw this country into another disastrous war of choice.
LeeAnn, very good post, but yours usually are. This is definitely the wildest campaign season I've ever seen, and Hillary is certainly revealing just what another Clinton Presidency would look like (not a pretty sight). You got it right on what the Clintons have cost us. I wish other could see it as well. Paul Rogat Loeb did a great story "Did Clinton Win Ohio on a Lie?". Link is below. Worth reading to show just what her campaign is up to. I hope Kem reads it. It details just what really went down with the Canadian NAFTA flap. Yes, Harper really did meddle in US politics, trying to be "helpful" to the Republicans. And Clinton jumped on it.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/031208H.shtml
kathyodat
Kem Patrick
"Obama's voting record since he has been in the senate is ALL pro war. In addition, on two very important votes, one was the Kyl/Lieberman resolution on Iran, which was actually a vote for war with Iran. Hillary voted NO..."
Maybe you didn't mean she voted No on this KL amendment? Which one did she vote No on?
Statement of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton on the Kyl-Lieberman Amendment
Washington, DC – "Earlier today, I voted for a non-binding resolution that designates the Iranian Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization. The Revolutionary Guards are deeply involved in Iran's nuclear program and have substantial links with Hezbollah.
"I voted for this resolution in order to apply greater diplomatic pressure on Iran. This resolution in no way authorizes or sanctions military action against Iran and instead seeks to end the Bush Administration's diplomatic inaction in the region.
"Iran has gained expanded influence in Iraq and the region as a result of the Bush Administration's polices which have also rejected diplomacy as a tool for addressing Iranian ambitions. While the United States has spurned talks, Iran has enhanced its nuclear enrichment capabilities, armed Iraqi Shiite militias, funneled arms to Hezbollah and subsidized Hamas, even as the government continues to damage its own citizens by mismanaging the economy and increasing political and social repression.
"I continue to support and advocate for a policy of entering into talks with Iran, because robust diplomacy is a prerequisite to achieving our aims.
"This legislation reaffirms my policy of engagement and refers specifically to the statement of Defense Secretary Gates who said that "diplomatic and economic means" are "by far the preferable approach" for dealing with the threat posed by Iran.
"In February, after troubling reports about the possibility of military action against Iran, I took to the Senate Floor to warn that President Bush needs Congressional Authorization before attacking Iran. Specifically, I said it would be a mistake of historical proportion if the Administration thought that the 2002 resolution authorizing force against Iraq was a blank check for the use of force against Iran without further and explicit Congressional authorization. Nor should the President think that the 2001 resolution authorizing force after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, in any way, authorizes force against Iran. If the Administration believes that any use of force against Iran is necessary, the President must come to Congress to seek that authority.
"Nothing in this resolution changes that."
=====
Obama's votes for continued budgeting for Iraq were due to his concern about the troops. Until the Democrats all voted together to end the funding and bring the troops home, he couldn't have done anything else.
You better stop sniffing whatever it is your taking, you're on the edge ~RIVER~. Take a break.
Logically, it should be written, "Nearly ALL who are in the top 1%, are men". Nearly all who can bench press 400 pounds, are men. Personaly, I can only do 330.
Please don't stop, that was really great.
Dang it, I spit my coffee all over my keyboard.
I recently read an article in Mother Jones that gave a very brief synopsis of both Clinton's and Obama's voting records. In fact, Clinton came out slightly (although not really all that much) ahead on the progressive issues. As far as actual policies and voting is concerned, I don't see all that much difference. One votes a little more conservatively in one area, and the other makes up for it in another, and vice versa. Therefore, I don't base my decision on the person I want to vote for on those grounds.
There have been some very good essays concerning the Bill Clinton presidency, and much of it was not very pretty. During his tenure, the gap between the very wealthy and the average citizen grew alarmingly. NAFTA, welfare "reform" and a host of other corporate-favoring policies went into effect. Americans, for whatever reason, were disillusioned enough with the status quo to put republicans in charge of the legislature. Yes, there was a lot of good, too, like the booming economy - although that did turn out to be something of an illusion when the bubble burst, but that's another story. And it's hard to tell from a distance what caused many of these problems to occur.
In any case, I didn't vote for Clinton the second time around because he seemed to be republican lite. I couldn't care less about his affairs or liasons or whether or not Hillary stood by her man when he strayed. But I did care that the Clintons seem to be in the pockets of the powerful and wealthy.
Currently, something like 20% or more of all Americans have never known a president who was not named Bush or Clinton. I object to dynasties and aristocracies, and this is particularly true when they lead to entrenched power, greed, and destruction of freedoms. The Clintons give me the creeps. This may not be completely logical, but it's not totally off the wall.
Hillary Clinton is not an inspiring speaker. Obviously we can get by (more or less) with a president who has virtually no ability to speak his native language, but it really is an embarrassment. Do we want more of this? Listen to her in an interview! Practically every other word is "you know" or "um." She never seems to know what she is going to say next and I always get the feeling she's kind of um, you know, searching for her thoughts.
But most of all, Clinton's tactics have grown ugly. Her assertion that McCain is more qualified to ensure the safety of Americans is stunningly stupid if she has any desire to see a democrat in office. Her ambition - not a negative trait in and of itself - has made her reckless. Now the republicans have a perfect line of attack no matter who is the nominee. If it's Obama, "even his democratic opponent has stated that Senator McCain is more fit to lead." If it's Clinton, "she shows no loyalty to her party or integrity in a fight. How can she be trusted to lead our country?"
There have been lots of good comments here, in spite of the nasty personal attacks. Kem Patrick seemed to have a great deal of trouble in getting people to comprehend his points, which were actually quite lucid, but he is at least partly right. From what I understand, Clinton's record is at least nominally more progressive.
It would be a good thing if a person who states that a "logic intelect test" and that "science says nearly all men are in the top 1% of logic intelect" (whatever that means!) could spell "intellect" correctly. (Is that "men" as in "humanity" or "men" as opposed to "women"? And how can all men be in the top 1%? Hm.)
I'm with many, many of the posters here. Hillary Clinton has gone beyond the threshold (to use her own words) of decency and good sense. I wanted Kucinich - a seriously romantic pipe dream while it lasted, and then Edwards. I thought I could kind of hold my nose and vote for the two left standing, but I was wrong. I really cannot see myself voting for Clinton.
As horrible as another republican presidency seems, there are a couple of possible positive outcomes. 4 more years of insanity might (not likely if McCain actually wins) bring Americans to their senses - if our entire claim to civilization is not irreparably damaged. The other is that there are huge, giant, practically unavoidable fiascos on the horizon. At least one is the economy, with oil, energy, and food prices driving many to the brink of poverty and beyond. The other is the end or lack thereof of the Iraq occupation. Either way, it is unlikely to be good. It might be better in the long run if a democrat is not presiding over these bad times. Hang on - no matter who is elected, I think we are in for a rough ride.
Nope ~RIVERDOPE~, you said, "Nearly ALL men are in the top 1% of logic intellect.
You don't know what your saying from one minute to the next. And your a scream. LMAO. Don't stop, please.
I sure don't agree with what Ferraro said, but I didn't see it was racial. But I do see how it could be spun to make it racial.
Obama has run a terriffic campaign, he didn't get the Iowa or New Hampshiire votes from African Americans. He isn't ahead because of his skin color, he's ahead because he claims he's been against the Iraq war since 2002 and he's not being truthful about that. He's also ahead because of his fantastic ability to entice people to like him and believe his words. He's also ahead because millions of people don't trust Hillary and they have just cause to feel that way. ___She is more progressive than Obama and don't expect a lot of progressive changes if he's our next president.
~Cranky~, your pitiful attempts to tell others that I'm a racist or anything else are just your nutty blathering. Rave on and join the Riverman. You say I'm done? Are you God, or do you own this site?
McCain is running on a platform of endless war in Iraq, emptying our treasure and youth's blood forever, permanent tax cuts for the rich, who already have almost all of our national wealth in their pockets while the middle class sinks into the sewer, admits he really doesn't know anything about the economy (and he's a Senator voting on that stuff!) while the only argument about the recession is how deep and how long. And half the country is still willing to vote for him? Unbelievable. At this point fear isn't even on people's minds, except how to pay their bills. Although come October, it might be. So right now why are so many people even considering him?
kathyodat
Well I didn't think it was my opinion ~JIM~. I thought it was THEIR votes, not mine. I don't like any of them for the presidency. ALL I was attempting to say was, Hillary is more progressive than Obama. I don't say she's a nicer or better person and I did say I don't like all of her votes and especially agree with ~Kristina40,~ that her vote on cluster bombs was wrong. I just do not believe Obama is what he's preaching and I hope I'm wrong. Don't think I am.
People here are getting pretty hot and we're only halfway through the primaries.
Now we have Geraldine throwing rocks at Obama with Hillary hiding behind her skirt. How Presidential. If Ferraro didn't mean anything by her race remark why bring it up in the first place?
I'm with you, Kristina, that cluster bomb vote by Hillary was repellent. I also looked up her ties to a major cluster bomb manufacturer. She got money from them. I don't care if out of the hundreds of votes they both cast, she voted progressive 4 more times than Obama. I look at how each of them is behaving and what kind of behavior I want to see in the White house and it's an easy call. She didn't fire those two high level staffers because they made inappropriate comments, she fired them because there was too much internal bickering going on and the campaign was getting dysfunctional. Her campaign made poor policy decisions, such as to skip the caucus states, and plan for a Super Tuesday win, so they ran out of money. Does this look like sound judgment for running a country when they can't even run a campaign? And like Bush with Rove, she's got aides publicly saying stuff she "doesn't agree" with, but she also doesn't take any action about it (wink-wink). I don't like her style. I don't need a President I'm ashamed of, I've had plenty of those.
arkitekton, when riverman asserts that only men are sufficiently logical to be qualified to vote, I can't imagine anything I could say that would be more offensive. Maybe my imagination is too limited. Both Hillary and Obama are coping with a glass ceiling here, and I could wish Hillary was handling it with more grace. But it isn't there for McCain, and considering that he is running on the despicable Bush platform which the whole country wants changed, and right now the race is so damn close that the Republicans can steal it in a cakewalk - and surely will - shows how unevolved this country is. riverman's remarks are unacceptable to me.
kathyodat
kathyodat
Kem,
I don't think your opinion on past votes is accurate.
Why you are using that as a smokescreen and hide behind something that Cindy said is beyond me...i thought you were wiser than that.
I say smokescreen because Hitlery and mr bill have ganged up with the Republicans... remember republicans like Bill and Rush and Hillary saying that only her and McCain are ready for commander in Chief of the War Machine!
I don't see much difference between Hitlery and McCain anyway but I'll take a chance on Obama.
Anybody who is painted by the media as a Gay Commie Terrorist can't be all that right wing.
COMarc
Thanks so much for the long posting about how pols play with voting records. It drives me crazy how seldom this reality is exposed. It's so obvious, but then, I guess the press is not known for its incisive analysis.
"Votes against confirmation of the SC justices are very suspect. The real vote was a day or so before on a cloture vote to end the filibuster. Senators who'd voted with the Republicans to end the filibuster (which everyone knew ensured confirmation), then turned around and voted 'against' confirmation on the final vote."
This also is helpful. As an attorney and law professor who watches S. Ct. matters closely (and holds her nose when doing so), I was horrified by the nomination of Alito (aka Scalito). You are sooo right that the cloture vote was the meaningful vote, but of course that's seldom discussed. Even Obama, who I believed voted correctly on the cloture vote, went on the Sun. morning talk shows the day or two before the vote to say what a bad idea the filibuster was. Talk about cynicism. (and I mildly favor Obama over Clinton).
Voting records (at least those made a year or so BEFORE the actual campaign) are relevant to evaluating candidates but they are not the be all and end all I wish they were.
So, I don't give a damn how Obama voted on the final confirmation vote. What's more interesting was whether he was doing everything he could to support the filibuster, or did he side with the Republicans on the vote that mattered?
It is time for US to take control. Contact all your elected officials (superdelegates)and particularly contact John Edwards and urge them to back Obama NOW. This is the only way to stop this destruction of the Democratic party.
Kem, another vote you didn't mention was the ban on cluster bombs..Hillary voted against it...Surprisingly,she has financial ties to the company that makes them...I'd vote for Satan before I'd vote for that B****.
I have a FEELING that determines MY vote.... it is the feeling that PEOPLE ARE STEALING MY MONEY. Run with that, you stupid Election, Inc. democrats!!
Actually, I am a woman. You got a problem with that arkitekton?
"Vern, you're funny, and a polar opposite to riverman, who really needs to go find a wacko religious site for his rantings. I hadn't thought you are a woman, but you sound like one, or an unusually evolved man.
kathyodat"
kathy, I ordinarily enjoy your posts, and often agree with you, but the above disgusted me. Please avoid this kind of bigotry here.
It is a hard line for Obama to walk, because he has to maintain his integrity without being swiftboated by the unethical Clintons. It would be helpful if some heavyweights started drawing the line with the Clintons for the sake of election hopes and the future of the Country. And actually, in Clinton's quest to appeal to ignorance she has, if anything, driven African-Americans to back Obama in a united defense against the gutter tactics of the Clintons. It is extremely damaging when white Americans give this a pass so the entertainment aspect of it--akin with throwing people to the lions, can continue.
Who comes out looking worst in all this is women. Petty, ignorant, selfish and stupid. The Clintons--between Bill's sleazy behavior and Hillary's exploitation of her gender--have been destructive to women on the whole.
I used to conduct race relations seminars. I learned one VERY valuable lesson.
Racist gentry are always more subtle, even reptilian. And they ALWAYS express the most eloquent love and admiration for the subjects of their covert derision. (Miss Hillary). Actually, it's the Yankee racists that are the most unteachable. Often they are second or third generation Americans, with a huge chip on their shoulders and no historical, cultural affinity for African-American people.
Protestations of liberality and piety are just another red flare, as reliable as rain in Seattle... on a level with "some of my best friends back home... blah blah... why one of my neighbors used to be... blah blah."
Hackneyed BS.
You're done.
Wow. __ I post my opinion, that I think Hillary is more progressive than Obama. I am now a no good, rotten, black hating, rat SOB, and also get spirtiual lectures from some person named ~HANUMAN~. You know what? __ You don't know me and I don't need your ignorant preaching to me. I have my God and he's the father of Jesus the Christ, his only son. I don't like or approve of any religions or churches. I despise the so called right to lifers, so called Christians. That's my perogitive.
I believe all of humanity are brothers and those imaginary lines drawn on maps do not really exist. I will post my opinions as I so choose and if any don't like it, they can scroll right on by. It don't bother me one bit. I may not appreciate what some say, but I don't lose any sleep over it.
I am Sorry Riverman, I misunderstood you. You said that nearly ALL men are in the top 1% for logic intellect. So I read it, that you meant that most men are fit to pass the test, because that is what you wrote. ___ You are truly funny BTW.
Hey CRANKY, you read my true unspoken feelings about Obama do you? Well Cranky you are as full of shit as this crazy and very humerous Riverman is. I have written, I think Obama is a fine person and I believe that. I just don't llike his U S Senate voting record. I don't like Hillary's either, but believe she is more "progressive" with her votng record than he is. I agree with Cindy Sheehan on Obama and with millions of others.
I do take ummbridge that you state I hate Obama, I do not. I never have condemmed anyone here on this thread for their opinions. So follow Riverman Cranky and vote for whomever you please.
As far as Ferraro's words, I agree they were not well chosen, because she opened the door for criticism. But I don't believe what she said was any different than what the TV pundents have been saying. Obama is getting the black vote. Hillary is getting the Latino vote. Golly, that must be racist so don't say it. __ Bull.
Very clever, Hanuman. And well put. Thank you.
cranky -chatter, you're being hard on Kem. Yes, the Clinton campaign is waging a veiled race war, but it's covert, and best recognized by those it targets. That's what covert is all about. After Bill blew the Black vote in South Carolina, they don't really care how Blacks feel, although if Hillary manages to get the nomination, they might.
kathyodat
riverman, I do not feel sorry for Kem, he doesn't need anyone feeling sorry for him. Please don't go putting words in my mouth. He has a good spirit and a warm heart, and while I don't agree with him about Hillary and Obama, he is entitled to his opinions. Last I heard, it's still a free country, as long as people like you don't get to make the rules.
kathyodat
Kathyodat,
You are welcome.
A quote for you:
"One school -- the world;
one teacher -- God;
one book -- life."
Only God knows each of our 'books' better than we can -- and, we can know them as well -- or, as little -- as we want.
Kem Patrick of the Clinton/Rwandan Genocide posts, at least one line of the following quote is for you:
"There is one religion -- the
religion of love;
there is one race -- the race
of humanity;
there is one language --
the language of the heart;
there is one God -- and that
God is everywhere, for everyone."
Good Night
rumiluv asks: "Kem Patrick, why do you love Hillary so much?"
I remember your rebuttal and denial, but now the true, unspoken feelings are fairly obvious. It's not Hillary you love but Obama you hate. Since you've gotten him wrong on half a dozen documented counts here, your rationale' is clearly irrational. Your true motives have nothing to do with reason.
What Ferraro said was, Obama is only where he is [a winning presidential candidate] BECAUSE he is a Black Male and some Americans are in love with the "concept." She said he was "LUCKY."
She didn't say anything in that context regarding voter demographics.
Your answer is contained in your question regarding Ferraro.
Well, now we know what "demographic" the inflammatory, thinly veiled, racist attack campaign is directed toward. It's apparently working.
Whatever you do Kem, don't vote for that rooty poot, light skinned, fast talkin' Negro con man. He's probably on Mr. Cheney's payroll... and JES LOOKA HOW HE DISRESPEKKIN MISS HILLARY!!! It's a DISgrace. He's probably not even a Christian.
I DO Declare.
What is interesting about the landed Gentry of the Deep Old South, is you'll be having iced tea with them in the Gazebo, thinking 'this is my new best friend,' while THEY are plotting your assassination like a mediaeval Medici.
Who ever said "a life that lacks serious self examination is hardly worth living" would be encouraging you to take a look in the mirror... not take a long walk off a short pier.
But I ain't him.
HILLARY IS A FELONIOUS HACK
I RESIGN.
Thanks for the posts people. I read most of it (I don't normally do that) and it has been an informative discussion (for lazy me)... :-)
OH, question for River? I always thought Fabian Socialists were the stuff of legend and myth... like Minotaurs and Unicorns.... the Liberal Media, creeping socialism and devil worshipping, Sectarian Humanists... can I have your autograph?
When you say "Obey the Prophets," could you be more specific? I tried listening to the proverbial "still small voice within" once, but it told me to go to the Mall with no clothes on... So I'm a little nervous about the Prophet thing...
Here is something I have trouble understanding. Tonight, I watched the TV pundents talking about the Mississippi votes, which Obama won big time as expected. So here are about eight or ten people, some white, some African American and they all essentially said the same thing Ferraro said about the black votes (they all termed them black votes.) I prefer African Americans, because some are light brown and that's what lots of pretty white girls try to get laying naked in the sun. But, they get cancer instead.
No one accused the TV commentators and guests of being racist ___ and they weren't. They said Obama recieved over 90% of the black votes in Mississippi. They said Hillary recieved over 70% of the white votes. Some said race is playing a big part in the voting and that's essentially what Ferraro said, but when she said it, Hillary is playing the race card.___ Why?? ___ Help me. They also all said Ferraro was wrong to say what she said, and then they all said the same things, using slightly different wording. Funny how politics is.
The fact is, Obama has the African American vote, Hillary has more of the Latino vote than Obama does, and a larger majority of the white vote in most states. That's how it is, it may be racial, but it does not seem to be racist to state the facts on the issue. I wish everyone had my opinion and that is. We are all the same, world wide, regardless of the color of our skin. We are people, humans,__ period.
Thank you, Hanuman, that was a wonderful post.
kathyodat
Good post, starofthesea. I don't expect Obama to "rescue" us or be everything I want in a candidate. What I do hope for, and I certainly could be wrong, is that if the people push, he will respond. If I am wrong, it was worth a try, because the rest of the "electable" field is a total waste and I will go back to my third party corner. Hillary will only respond to the corporations, and McCain who has flipflopped into a torture supporting warmonger may or may not be doing that just to get the Republican nomination. I have no clue what's going on with him. He became a Bush kiss ass once he decided to run, and that was years ago.
What Obama wanted to accomplish coming into the Illinois Senate was single payer health care, lobbyist money out of politics, a slew of progressive reforms. He's hewing the line, and I think it's because the corporate media would have him for breakfast if he didn't. I could be wrong, but he doesn't look bought so much as being pragmatic in order to get elected. Hillary is bought, pure and simple. She got too rich, too fast, and she doesn't want to talk about where it came from. As far as I'm concerned, she's completely untrustworthy. I don't care how either of them voted in the last two years (although the cluster bomb vote did horrify me - unnecessary viciousness), they had to play the game to stay in it. What counts is what they would do after that, and for that, I look at what they were doing before being in the race. Her history is the opposite of his, she never favored single payer health care, started the DLC, and their history is what I base my choice on. I may not get a choice, being that she's running the slimiest campaign I've ever seen a Democrat run. At first I was shocked that she was willing to destroy the Democratic party in order to destroy him but now nothing shocks me. I'm disappointed that the super delegates are just standing by and letting her do it, but so they are for their own reasons. Most of them are DLC hacks anyway and probably hope she gets away with it.
starofthesea, I thonk you're right, this party needs a decent burial. I have An Unreasonable Man, haven't watched it yet, but expect no surprises. I have a wonderful biography of Nader, loaned to me by a fellow campaign worker when we tried to get him elected in 2000 here in Eugene OR. He has always been my hero, and I understand why he keeps running. It is death to progressivism if the progressive voice is silenced. And yes, historically change has always come from pressure outside the two party system, so he runs. I honor him for doing it with all the swill the unenlightened throw at him, but visionaries always pay the price for being ahead of the curve.
kathyodat
Coming in at the tail-end of this thread. Couple of thoughts:
Krugman has been anti-Obama for a long time -- sometimes subtly -- sometimes not.
Saw the name of Howard Wolfson in one of the comments -- Senator Clinton's media person -- a real trained-to-attack pit bull. Hard eyes. Wouldn't trust for anything.
Charlie Rose had three Brits on show the other night. Europeans seem to see things a bit more clearly from a distance. Find out what they think about the Presidential race.
Agree with comment about the poor ethics of the Clinton campaign. In so many, many ways America has a low setting on her moral-compass (probabaly starting with how we treated the Indians and slaves). Some really, really heavy karma -- and, so very little humility!!!
About the above, I'll share something personal: after hitchhiking around the world for six years -- with much time spent in unbelievably harmonious rural villages -- and becoming a monk in the process -- when I came back, I couldn't believe how unhappily disfuctional my countrymen and women were. To give you an example (I have many): the engineering professor from the University of Colorado who started the organization 'Engineers without borders' said during an interview (on Moyers or NOW), something like: "I see during one day in an African village more smiles than I see during an entire school year at the engineering school at the University of Colorado.
So, after coming home to this, I used to joke with my friends: "This lifetime, I don't know if I was born here in America to be punished -- or, to serve" (one friend said: "probably both")
My friends, our politics is a reflection of us -- as well as are: our lonely kids, depressed and suicidal teens (these two are totally NOT village), drug and alcohol abuse, lack of neighborly community, scams on the weak, and too much greed too much at the top.
Here are two quotes from India:
"Politics without principles;
commerce without morality;
wealth without charity;
science without humanity;
education without character;
pleasure without purity (of heart);
are not only useless -- they are
positively dangerous."
"If there is righteousness in the heart,
there is beauty in the character;
If there is beauty in the character,
there is harmony in the home;
If there is harmony in the home,
there is order in the community
and the nation;
If there is order in the community
and the nation -- then, there
can be peace in our world."
Bless
S
~RUNILUV~ I disagree with a lot of what Hillary has voted for also. I don't "love" her as a candidate either and I have NEVER said I did, in fact, I have never said I even like her. So stop your assuming about it, because you are wrong.
I voted for John Edwards and we now have Hillary or Obama. You can say I love her as a candidate if you want to say that, suit yourself. I have never said it and I don't think it. I don't like any of them for our president. I believe Obama is a fine person, if he does turn out to be as good as he talks, he may become our greatest president. I believe he is only as good as his voting record. I don't like his favoring Lieberman. I hope that I am wrong. __ I often am.
What I've said, if you can understand written english is, I agree totally with Cindy Sheehan about her opinion of Obama. I'llnow add, I totally agree with her opinions of Hillary and of Pelosi and Conyers and Bush, Cheney, etc. That was not the point I was making here. But you dind't address that point.
Further, I said I believe Hillary is far more progressive than Obama, due to BOTH of their votes since he has been a U.S. Senator. The information I have BTW, is Obama had no vote on the Fiengold-Reid issue. He sent a letter that he was against it. Maybe I am wrong on that.
If Obama is the Demo choice, we intend to vote for him, I will never vote for McCain. Unless Hillary wins big in Penna, she won't get the necessay super votes to have the Demo nomination. She also would have to have a pretty big majority in Mich. and Fla. Those states will most likely vote again.
There are six weeks until Pa votes, a lot can happen in six weeks. Hillary may self destruct, so may Obama. I'd say that Hillary has a better chance of self destructing than Obama does. Probably neither will and it may go to the convention to select a delegate. That is what I believe will occur. Obama has won a lot of the smaller states. Hillary has won the states that normally count the most in a general election.
Ayway, I posted my opinions and made a serious error saying that Hillary voted NO on one issue. I was wrong. I'm sorry I did that, it was not intentional. As Riverman states, I'm an idiot. So you have to consider the source or just ignore me. I'm not the wizard Riverman is.
Barack Hussein Obama is a whiny fucking bitch!!!!!! If his sorry ass wins the Democratic nomination, I will stay home!!!! Ferraro is a stupid old Dem hack, but the holier than thou Obama campaign seems to have pretty thin skin. Wait until November, you think Hillary's hacks are rascist, wait until the Republican slime machine gets into gear. Good luck you idealistic liberals, but I think we should start preparing for another Republican administration. The only good news is McCain is over 70 and might not make it through all four years.
BeForKids----After watching An Unreasonable Man, and One Bright Shining Moment (about George McGovern) I am now convinced that the Democratic party is one of the institutions that has to crumble and be rebuilt from scratch. It has been altered so that I no longer recognize it.
All substantial progressive changes have come from the pressure of smaller third party movements---as long as any established power base thinks people have nowhere else to go, they will not give an inch.
I was willing to give Obama a chance, but as time goes on, it gets harder and harder to see myself voting for anyone other than Nader or McKinney. I just cannot do the "lesser of two evils" vote any longer. And for those of you who are going to scream about monster McCain, all I say is, if he is such a monster, why was Johm Kerry seriously considering him as his VP in 2004????? So with that AND Libermann in the pie, tell me there is any substantial difference in the two party duopoly we now are forced to choose between. Is it any wonder that Clinton says McCain is a better Commander in chief than Obama? She means it, folks! It should be a McCain-Clinton ticket----soul mates.
It is becoming quite obvious why the Neocon media decided early that our two "front runners" were Hillary and Obama. They are smart enough to know this fiasco of Dems tearing each other apart would happen. Apparently the hatred of Hillary has eclipsed the disdain for Bush, Cheney, McCain, and others who are wrecking the country.
Even Keith Olberman has gotten into the Hillary is the enemy mindset and forgotten who we must get out of control if we still want a country. You can battle over every little vote, but remember who took our functioning country and in eight years nearly ruined it.
Stay in there, Kem, most of this posting reads like poor fiction instead of intelligent discussion. Obama is probably acceptable, but this hero worship will not turn out well in the end, as he will not deliver what many people are hoping for.
The DLC is a cancer on the party. I have written this repeatedly to the DNC, and have asked them to extricate themselves from the DLC; but, they may be too intertwined.
I urge everyone to contact their Congresspeople/superdelegates, as i have also done, and argue why they should support Obama.
Oh, and tell them to end the occupation, stop free trade w/Colombia, end military aid to Colombia, etc.
Kem Patrick says:
"I did not intentionally lie. I asked everyone to check their votes."
Checking their votes is something you completely failed to do, and that's only if we accept your contention that you never intentionally lied. That didn't stop you from ranting and raving about it anyway. and getting most of what you posted completely wrong. Arguing the difference between intentional malice and rank stupidity in this matter is a bit like arguing it in the case of Bush and Iraq--in the end, there really isn't any difference.
"It would be rather stupid of me to intentionally lie about a vote they made and then ask others to check out their votes and they could easily see I erred on one item."
No, they could easily see you "erred" on most of what you said!
Some of your hits, in this thread alone:
--You said Hillary Clinton voted against war with Iran (Kyl-Lieberman)--in fact, she voted in favor of it.
--You said Obama didn't bother to show up for the vote on Feingold-Reid--in fact, he did show up and voted in favor of it, along with introducing his own plan for withdrawal.
--You said Obama voted to confirm Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court--in fact, he voted against him.
--You said Obama voted to confirm John Roberts to the Supreme Court--in fact, he voted against him.
--You continued to lie about both the Kyl-Lieberman and the Feingold-Reid votes after your earlier assertions were exposed as false, and to suggest that those of us trying to correct the record were wrong.
--In this last post, you only claimed to have "erred on one item." The ones I've listed here are just the ones I identified.
the only reason I'm willing to vote for a Democrat is because of Obama. I would never vote for a DLC Democrat, and above all, not one of the founders of the DLC, which means Hillary and Bill. It is the DLC that has ruined the Democratic party and accelerated the destruction of the middle class. Thanks Hillary and Bill. By the way, how did they manage to get $60 million richer in under 7 years? Want to take odds that we won't find out? Anymore than Hillary would drop attack dog Ferraro from her campaign no matter what she says about Obama?
The DLC actually listed Obama as a member without his permission or knowledge and when he found out he immediately demanded they take his name off their list, which they did.
I'm getting a suspicion that this fall I'll be going back to Nader, and all those energized young people will be out in the cold.
Riverman is right about Hillary having no coattails, assuming she could even win, which I doubt. She's given McCain his talking points. Amazing how much of a disaster one person can be to a party.
kathyodat
Kem Patrick, I am not arguing about Cindy Sheehan's statements re Obama. I am only saying that there is much that Cindy disagrees with Clinton about also. I wondered why you seemed to love her as a candidate, and do not assume that you are in love with her.
kathyodat, I too, believe the Clintoncampaign's Rovian tactics are despicable. They're getting away w/it, much as Bush did, because most of the corporate media normalizes it. Obama gets chided for not being a "fighter." Can you hear me CNN?
MiMiCcS, where are you coming from? Obama has too many skeletons? And connections with Islam? You're making all this up. Or spending too much time with Rush Limbaugh.
One thing Hillary has in common with George W bush is loyalty for her minions. She doesn't approve of Ferraro's racist comments but wouldn't dream of asking her to leave. But considering the smears that have come out of her campaign, which she can't track down, not surprising. Just imagine what a Clinton administration would look like. It would look like her campaign. No accountability.
kathyodat
MIMI, You find it mind boggling that Hillary is stil in contention because of her votes and stands on the Iraqi issues. Once again, check both of their votes on the Iraqi issue. Obama is worse in that regard. Few ever check his actual votes, they just listen to his well delivered speeches.
~Goebbels and Bill~ I sure do agree with you guys and it distubs me a great deal that we are probably going to have a depresion this year and resulting in a failed nation. A nation which has thousands of nuclear weapons and a paranoid maniac in control of them. If we have a depression this year, Bush may very well end up as our King George and be so for a long, long time. He has the presidential directive powers to do just that.
Looking back, John Edwards was really the only viable candidate. I am not a big fan of his, nor do I believe he would be able to deliver fully on change, but Obama has too many skeletons, and lets face it, there are a number of people in this country who simply will not vote for a person of color who has connections with Islam. It's sad, but true. Sure, the young people like him, but they don't vote in enough numbers to make a difference.
The fact that Hillary could still be in the running at this stage despite her voting record and comments on Iraq and Iran is just so mind boggling. That fear ad is just more evidence to show where she stands on terror and war, and her still being in the race is more evidence people are really too dumb to be voting for President. Skeletons and all, with Edwards out, Obama should have been a slam dunk.
Maybe we should just give the job to the CEO of the corporation who pays the most taxes over each 4 year period, and offer them financial incentives (0.1% of corporate tax revenues) so they don't take a pay cut and don't give away too many goodies to the corporations. It couldn't be worse than this crappy system.
~RUMILUV~ You will not ever find ANY blog I ever wrote that says I love Hillary Clinton. I do not.
Don't assume. Primarily what I have posted here, is Hillary's votes are more progressive than Obama's votes are by a two to one margin and that he is mis-represinting his position on the Iraqi occupation. Obama may be our next president because of that. ___That bothers me.
I did not intentionally lie. I asked everyone to check their votes. It would be rather stupid of me to intentionally lie about a vote they made and then ask others to check out their votes and they could easily see I erred on one item.
I also have continually posted comments here at CD that I oppose the war and the occupation of Iraq and I would pull our troops out of Iraq today if I had that power. I'd also shut down that Green Zone embassy and fire Halliburton and KBR and have a lot of people, includng some Blackwater troops arrested and have Bush and Cheney impeached if I had that power.
I do support Cindy Sheehan and I also fully agree with her commments about Obama concerning his votes on the Iraqi and Iran issues. You obviously do not agree with Cindy on that and that's your perogative and I won't comdemn you for whomever you support, nor assume you are in love with them.
Krugman sez: "... public optimism about Iraq is rising: 53 percent of the public believes that the United States will definitely or probably succeed in achieving its goals."
Lessee, the goals:
•Establish permanent military and economic occupation in the middle of the world's largest accumulation of proven oil reserves before China, India, et al establish claims in the region;
•Control the supply of that resource for the benefit of transnational corporations, that they might suppress supply and drive up profits;
•Continue the funneling of the public treasury into the hands of corporate patrons through multiple layers of private subcontractors, each working with no-bid, cost-plus contracts;
•Establish a narrative framework of unending threat to the "Fatherland", allowing the patrons' representatives in Washington to continue dismantling the constitution with propaganda-based governance. (Election '08, anyone?)
•Recruitment and on-the-job training of privately contracted paramilitary security forces, in preparation for their need in quelling domestic unrest.
There's more, but in the main I'd have to say I'm part of the 53 percent who agrees the "United States" will probably achieve its goals.
It will also achieve the collapse of empire (see: Afghanistan, Russian occupation of), although I'm mildly disturbed by the fact this will be the first empire to collapse while in possession of thousands of nuclear warheads.
Hey people, Kem's a friend of mine and no liar, even if he sometimes gets his facts a little tangled in his enthusiasm for Hillary. He and I don't agree on this issue but we can still be friends.
My concern about Hillary is that she is showing no moral standards, and people go on supporting her as if that doesn't matter. Bush did a smear campaign against McCain in 2000 and got almost half the votes in the country. Hillary is doing a smear campaign against Obama and still has a large number of people, some of whom consider themselves progressives. What's happened to our moral compass? Got magnetized? What kind of example are setting for our young people? Anything goes?
kathyodat
I guess it will never change. Let me say it. THERE IS NO WAR IN IRAQ- IT IS AN OCCUPATION. In Afghanistan it is an incompetent exercise to make it appear that Washington is protecting someone somewhere. These occupations and invasions will go on and on with no sign of victory because they are not wars. War on drugs, war on terror. We need a war on the stupidity and ignorance in the media and populace where people use emotions as a substitute for common sense.
Lie to me once shame on you, lie to me twice, the then next time will be three times and by then I will forget that you are a liar. Bush is wrong, wrong, wrong, and a liar as well, yet he gets away with it day after day after day.
The Pentagon prove it again today. No relationship between Iraq under Saddam and Osama. No weapons- and McCain can win by protecting us- from what, from our leaders?
Hillary's "Fear & Smear" campaing is a true revelation of what she would offer as a future president. Thankfully she does stand a chance - just like a SNOWBALL IN HELL.
YES WE CAN - OBAMA 08 - WAY TO GO IN SEARCH OF A HOPEFUL AND BETTER FUTURE FOR THE US of A.
"It may be hard for a lot of liberals to wrap their minds around the emotional power of symbolic thinking."
I have posted since January that the Dems could easily win in November if they formed a 'United' party. But egos get in the way, don't they?
They could have started in February the campaign "rebirth of Democracy", since it was 9 months until election.
Is that symbolic enough?
Instead the Democratic Party will do their only dance and take a step to the right, take a step to the right.
Right into McCain-land. Just you watch.
Back to some thoughts on Ira Chernus's thoughts.
Look at the phrasing of the "atypical" public opinion poll result central to Paul Krugman's column: "53 per cent of the public believes that the United States will definitely or probably succeed in achieving its goals" in Iraq. What goals?
I'm staunchly antiwar, and hate the Iraq war in particular. I've picketed and speechified against it, and consider ending the US military occupation there to be the overriding issue for the 2008 campaign, since absolutely nothing can be done about the US economy until that trillion dollar boondoggle is ended. But if a pollster asked me that question, I'd answer it "Yes", too.
I believe the goals of the invasion were to get US corporate hands on Iraqi oil reserves, shovel billions of additional loosely audited dollars to the Pentagon and its favorite contractors, and in the process enmesh American ground troops into a perpetual, "low insensity" urban counterinsurgency effort that can be milked through propaganda and racist fear mongering to garner domestic partisan advantage for the militarist right wing of the Republican Party. To a very large extent, those goals definitely have been achieved, and probably will continue to be achieved, until the madness stops.
Similarly, if the respondents equated US goals with the shorter term goals of the surge, an affirmative answer is also called for: who didn't expect bribing the Sunni tribes, the Mahdi army to taking a reorganizational break, the completion of major ethnic cleansing in Baghdad, and large scale indefinite detention sweeps in insurgent areas to yield a temporary decrease in violence? I fully expected those cosmetic goals to be achieved. Again, I'd answer the pollster "Yes".
If 47% of the responding public agree with Harry Reid that the war in Iraq is already lost, and a portion of the 53% of respondents who answered "Yes" include antiwar people who define the United States' "goals" similar to the way I might, and who see events in the Middle East "succeeding" as they spiral off in an all too-familiar pattern of lethal ebb and flow, then this poll result actually proves the opposite of Mr. Krugman's thesis.
Second, Ira is right that two of the three campaigns are pushing the war back to center stage right now, but I think he's missing how the Obama campaign has parried, and should continue to parry, all the macho toughness demagoguery.
It's not about surrender, it's about ending an unjust occupation that drains national resources and multiplies the number of real world terrorists who have a bone to pick with Uncle Sam. It's all fine to be tough, but you got to be right in the first place.
If Barack sticks to that sort of simple theme, ending the occupation of Iraq can work for him against both Hillary Clinton and John McCain. It's a genuine values issue that they just don't get.
Bill from Saginaw
Kem Patrick, why do you love Hillary so much? I felt that both Clinton and Obama have had voting records that could be better. That is why I favored first Kucinich, and then Edwards. Kucinich was disappeared by corporate media. As Edwards was in the process of being disappeared, I got a good look at Obama and saw a man leading a movement, inspiring people who were previously alienated from the whole process.
The Kyl/Lieberman vote was not a small error on Clinton's part, nor was your errant representation of it. So, Clinton is joining Bush and McCain in their belligerance toward Iran; just as she erred on the Iraq War vote that "got us into the ditch". Then, she chides
Obama for being naive for a willingness to talk with our adversaries. Remember, it was Churchill who said it is better to jaw, jaw,
jaw than to war, war, war. And, remember, it is Bush who has rebuffed efforts by Iran to seriously negotiate. All I see from Clinton is a joining w/the Repugs in demonizing Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, Venezuela, Bolivia, etc. Where will that take us?
I hope you will join your friend Cindy Sheehan in the streets this weekend to protest the War/Occupation and the mind-set that got us into it.
Okay I'll try to stop "lying". It wasn't intentional. You see, there were other votes concerning the Iran issue and Hillary opposed most of those issues and Obama didn't. That's why I say he supports Liberman and he has publically stated he supports Lieberman's positions on the Mid-East region.
Read that article in the link I offered and read Bob K's comments also. He nailed it far better than I did and made no stupid lying errors.
Yes, Ira Chernus nailed it. The deeper fears that guide people. What could be more critical to survival than the promise of safety. I, myself have noticed in these weeks of The BillaryslashObama Slayfest, I have found myself finding McCain's, silence in this storm - reeking of fatherly stability. Of course, I know McSame is a loose nut, red faced rage squirrel if the "Democratic" mediafest werent focused on "The Democrats", rather than those Republican Despotcrats...
On the Alito confirmation fight, here's a great timeline\summary.
http://www.democrats.com/alito-48
10:10 a.m: Good news and bad news: Sen. Obama told George Staphylococcus he will (reluctantly) support the filibuster (#14), but also that it would fail - without identifying which Democrats would cause it to fail, which would help us turn them around. Obama said he opposed "procedural maneuvers"
--------------
So, to me Sen. Obama was reluctantly dragged into supporting the filibuster. Most likely because he was already running for President and he could see the energy the Dem base was putting into that at the time. So, he gets a bit of a point for actually voting to sustain the filibuster. But, since he knew the filibuster would fail, that was also very much a 'safe' vote. IE, he knew that casting this vote would not actually block Alito from the court.
~CLASSICLIBERAL~ Read this link. I fully agree with Cindy Sheehan's assesment of Obama with her comment posted there. You may agree with ~Riverman~ and ~Dougwagner~ if you wish.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/28/7343/
It is ludicrous to any sensible person to believe that any Senators ever, have actually worked on 1,986 bills in four years. That would be (662) bills a year. The Senate is in sessin about 200 days a year. Lets give them 210 a year and Obama has been away from Washington DC most of the time for the past 18 or so months. That IS political spin. ___ Total Bull.
eyeronie say, to Kem Patrick:
"There is a growing list of complete misinformation you've posted about Obama in this thread alone. And the fact that you're trying to spin the Clintons of all people as being more progressive is high comedy. Obama is no progressive savior and I won't be voting for him or Clinton this November, but perhaps you should stop posting so often and so passionately about the man until you get your basic facts straight?"
A solid recommendation. I would add to your comments only this: It would also help if Kem would get his basic facts straight regarding Hillary Clinton's record. He's been posting complete misinformation about her, as well, as I've been demonstrating.
See my example in my long post above. Votes against confirmation of the SC justices are very suspect. The real vote was a day or so before on a cloture vote to end the filibuster. Senators who'd voted with the Republicans to end the filibuster (which everyone knew ensured confirmation), then turned around and voted 'against' confirmation on the final vote.
So, I don't give a damn how Obama voted on the final confirmation vote. What's more interesting was whether he was doing everything he could to support the filibuster, or did he side with the Republicans on the vote that mattered?
Kem Patrick say:
"Hey everyone who gives a damn, I erred when I wrote Hillary voted no on the Kyl/Lieberman vote. I said I erred a long time past here. This is the third time someone has brought it up, now I'm a liar because I made one mistake. Whatever you say Doug Wagner."
You said you made a mistake, admitted it, then turned right back around and claimed "Obama supports Lieberman and McCain and Bush on the Iran issue. ____ Hillary does not." Hillary voted FOR that war; Obama did not. If you don't want to be called a liar, don't lie.
"~Classic Liberal~ that link you posted was a press statment Obama made on the Feingoold issue, he didn't vote on it, he was not there to vote."
The Senators voting for Feingold-Reid: Akaka (D-HI), Biden (D-DE), Boxer (D-CA), Byrd (D-WV), Cantwell (D-WA), Cardin (D-MD), Clinton (D-NY), Dodd (D-CT), Durbin (D-IL), Feingold (D-WI), Feinstein (D-CA), Harkin (D-IA), Inouye (D-HI), Kennedy (D-MA), Kerry (D-MA), Klobuchar (D-MN), Kohl (D-WI), Lautenberg (D-NJ), Leahy (D-VT), Menendez (D-NJ), Mikulski (D-MD), Murray (D-WA), Obama (D-IL), Reid (D-NV), Sanders (I-VT), Schumer (D-NY), Stabenow (D-MI), Whitehouse (D-RI), Wyden (D-OR).
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vo...
Again, if you don't like being called a liar, trying lying less.
Interesting. Americans vote for safety, but in 2004 (allegedly) re-installed the psychopathic criminal enterprise that is the only true existential threat to their diminishing nation.
Hillary voted yes on the Kly/Liberman resolution, Obama skipped that vote, but he has voted pro-war 20 times and his voting record is far from that of Clinton. He has voted along with McCain and Liberman more often than Hillary has. __ Check it out.
KEM PATRICK:
"Obama has voted yes every time on bills that support the Iraqi occupation. He voted yes to comfirm Condy Rice, John Roberts and Samual Alito."
Complete misinformation, he voted against John Roberts and Samuel Alito. I hate to use the dreaded MSM as proof, but this isn't difficult to look up:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23276453/
You also said "The other was the Feingold/Reid ammendment to the Dept of Defense, which requires the president to safely redeploy ALL US troops from Iraq. Hillary voted YES and again Obama didn't bother to show up to vote."
Also completely false. He voted for the bill.
Here's a few links showing you're completely off, if they mean anything to you.
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/10815.html
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vo...
There is a growing list of complete misinformation you've posted about Obama in this thread alone. And the fact that you're trying to spin the Clintons of all people as being more progressive is high comedy. Obama is no progressive savior and I won't be voting for him or Clinton this November, but perhaps you should stop posting so often and so passionately about the man until you get your basic facts straight?
Kem Patrick say:
"Wow, 579 bills in only four years."
No, no, Kem--you missed my correction. Those numbers were only for his first year in the Senate. One year. The correct figure: During his entire time in the Senate, up until the end of 2007, he has authored or co-authored 1,986 bills. To Clinton's 20 (15 of which are fluff bills).
"Woweee, he is a hell of a worker."
Yep. That's someone who actually wants to do something, rather than just be a passive space-filler like Clinton, who just sits back, votes on other people's work, and collects a paycheck.
Remember, Reid's votes in the Senate on Iraq were almost entirely just political theater. The goal was to create the illusion of opposition to the war, while at the same time the war was being fully funded. The Dems were catching a lot of heat for not stopping the funding of the war, so that was when you were seeing a lot of these 'political theater' type of votes.
What it did was to give Senators the ability to appear to cast a vote against the war when in actuallity, these votes were going to do nothing to stop the war. I'm going entirely from memory, but I think this particular vote was on a measure that everyone knew the Bush would veto later on and that the votes were not there to overturn the veto. Thus, the vote on this particular measure was purely symbolic.
The real power the Constitution gives Congress to control the executive is that Congress controls the money. So the real option to end the war was to block the funding of the war. That's the way the founders designed the system. And especially, the real power they give the minority in the Senate is the filibuster.
So, where were Hillary and Obama in terms of a filibuster against the war funding? Nowhere to be found. Or more accurately, lined up with McCain and the Republicans making sure the funding was not blocked.
come on guys, give a girl a break......she has had to live with an 'impeached' husband for years.............it's payback time for bill. (anything you can do, i can do better.)
Hey everyone who gives a damn, I erred when I wrote Hillary voted no on the Kyl/Lieberman vote. I said I erred a long time past here. This is the third time someone has brought it up, now I'm a liar because I made one mistake. Whatever you say Doug Wagner.
~Classic Liberal~ that link you posted was a press statment Obama made on the Feingoold issue, he didn't vote on it, he was not there to vote.
I still fully agree with Cindy Sheehan and half of the other Americans voters.
Kem Patrick claims:
"Obama supports Lieberman and McCain and Bush on the Iran issue. ____ Hillary does not."
Reality: Hillary voted for Kyl-Lieberman, "which was actually a vote for war with Iran," exactly as you wrote earlier. She's the one with Bush on this one.
"There are REAL fear tactics for us, not political speeches bull-shit, which is tossed by both sides."
Image of a phone ringing in the early hours of the morning...
I'm not sure you can say Hillary opposes Lieberman et al on Iran. For instance, back when the vote in the Senate was over whether to call Iran's Republican Guard a 'terrorist organization', Hillary voted in favor of Lieberman's bill.
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/13015.html
"As Sen. Jim Webb (D-Va.) said, "At best, it's a deliberate attempt to divert attention from a failed diplomatic policy. At worst, it could be read as a backdoor method of gaining congressional validation for military action, without one hearing and without serious debate." He added that Lieberman-Kyl "is Dick Cheney's fondest pipe dream.""
BTW, Obama showed great courage and 'missed the vote.'
Kem, you're lying. Judgment Matters on Day One. Barack has it.
Geraldine Ferraro and Hillary Clinton do not. Be sure to thank Hillary for voting to invade a country half way around the world that was not harboring terrorists that attacked the United States on 9/11. It's done a lot for our economy.
BTW Hillary voted for the Kyl/Lieberman resolution on Iran. Obama opposed it. Obama was campaigning in New Hampshire. Kyl/Lieberman passed 76-22. John McCain also did not vote because he was campaigning.
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vo...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/10/21/hillary-defends-iran-vote_n_69255.html
Wow, 579 bills in only four years. That's 144 a year if the Senate worked 365 days of the year, and he's been campainging for the presidency for almost 18 months, doesn't even have time to vote on some important bills. Woweee, he is a hell of a worker. Maybe I'm wrong. Butttttt, there is his actual voting record. I dunno?
Kem Patrick say: "
"How did he [Obama] vote for the Fiengold/Reid ammendment if he wasn't there to vote?"
Answer: Because he was there, and did vote in favor of it. Here's his announcement, in which he also introduced his own redeployment plan:
http://obama.senate.gov/press/070515-obama_statement_57/
Even authoring or co-authoring a bill can be played with. For an example using Obama, read this piece.
That Obama Glow
By JOSHUA FRANK
http://www.counterpunch.org/frank02222008.html
"In 2006 Obama took up the cause of Illinois residents who were angry with Exelon, the nation's largest nuclear power plant operator, for not having disclosed a leak at one of their nuclear plants in the state. Obama responded by quickly introducing a bill that would require nuclear facilities to immediately notify state and federal agencies of all leaks, large or small.
At first it seemed Obama was intent on making a change in the reporting protocol, even demonizing Exelon's inaction in the press..."
{snip}
"Despite his initial push to advance the legislation, Obama's office eventually rewrote the bill, producing a version that was palatable to Exelon and the rest of the nuclear industry. "Senator Obama's staff was sending us copies of the bill to review, we could see it weakening with each successive draft," said Joe Cosgrove, a park district director in Will County, Illinois, where the nuclear leaks had polluted local ground water. "The teeth were just taken out of it."
Inevitably the bill died a slow death in the Senate. And like an experienced political operative, Obama came out of the battle as a martyr for both sides of the cause. His constituents back in Illinois thought he fought a good fight while industry insiders knew the Obama machine was worth investing in. "
Voting records are good in that they are ACTIONS that can be confirmed. As opposed to just talk.
But, you still have to be careful. There are a lot of games played with these things. Especially by Senators who know they are running for President. And both Hillary and Obama have known that they are running for President from the day they entered the Senate.
Here's some of the games played with voting records.
--Sometimes there are multiple votes on a bill. And sometimes the key vote is a more proceedural type of vote that comes before the final vote on passage\confirmation.
Example: confirmation of the last two Surpreme Court justices. The key vote was the cloture vote to end the attempts at a filibuster. Everyone in the Senate counts votes on everything. Everyone knows where it stands. In this case, everyone knew the Republicans and the DINO's had the 51 votes for confirmation. The vote on the filibuster was the real vote with a chance to block the nomination. My local DINO senator (Salazar D-CO) is a good case study. He opposed the filibuster and voted with the Republicans to end it. This means on the key vote he was standing side-by-side with the Republicans. Then, the confirmation vote itself was largely symbolic. Everyone knew that it would pass. Salazar then cast a purely symbolic vote against confirmation.
-- Once a bill has enough votes for passage, some votes are 'turned loose'. Like I said, everyone knows the vote counts. So, on a key vote, once the leadership knows they've got say 53-54 votes, they can 'turn loose' other Senators. That way, a Senator could feel one way about a measure, but vote in a way that's more politically correct because they know its going to pass anyways. I'd put the last votes in the Senate on 'war funding' in that category. Both Obama and Hillary had been voting to fully fund the war since joining the Senate. But the last time, after Reid knew he had enough votes to secure the funding, both Obama and Hillary voted against it. To me, that smells like they knew that was the vote primary voters wanted, and they could safely cast it knowing it would not cause the war they'd been supporting all along to be unfunded.
-- Similarly, sometimes there are deals on who votes in favor of an unpopular measure. An example would be the last Senate vote on letting the govt spy on Americans and giving the telecoms immunity. The Dem leadership, which had been pushing the bill through the Senate all along, knew they only needed a handful of Dem votes to go with the Republicans to get passage. Probably in negotiations, the Republicans had said they wanted a certain number of Dem votes, more than just required to get to 51, to make the bill look more bi-partisan. If you look closely at the Dems who voted in favor of the bill, they were all Senators who's re-election bids were 2 to 4 years away. It looked like the Dem leadership got those Senators to vote that way to allow the ones up for re-election sooner to vote No. The really funny part was Sen. Reid voting No. He'd been shepparding the bill through the Senate all along and working hard to make sure it passed. Then on the final vote he votes no. That's obvious BS.
So, sometimes you'll see Senators take some unpopular votes 'for the team' in the first few years after their re-election, then start voting in a way their constituents might want closer to the election. This is purely them taking a tough vote when its best for them, in return getting others to do the same later.
All of this is why voting records don't really always mean much. And compilations of voting records are even more suspect.
I'd ask a couple of key questions. 1) In general, how do you feel about the US Senate and the actions its been taking, or not taking? And 2) has a particular Senator stood out as being a bit of a 'rebel' or a 'maverick' consistently while in the Senate? For the latter, think of someone like Wellstone. You didn't need to check voting records to know where he stood.
But, if you don't like the general course the Senate has been taking, and if a particular Senator hasn't been their obviously fighting all along, I'm very sceptical about what a 'voting record' might show.
To me, I don't like the course the Senate's been taking. And I haven't seen either Hillary or Obama up their fighting very often.
Admiral Fallon has resigned so look out now. And Obama supports Lieberman and McCain and Bush on the Iran issue. ____ Hillary does not.
There are REAL fear tactics for us, not political speeches bull-shit, which is tossed by both sides.
McSame telling America to "Stay the Course" has to be a pretty empty strategy these days. I was very ashamed that the US gave Dubyuh 4 more years to destroy the world. That they were dumb and scairt is pretty cold comfort. By 2004 the internet was in full bloom. Are Americans really so apathetic as to believe what ever the MSM puts on page one these days? The big issue this time around will be the War/Economy factor. They are two peas in a pod. Even though the "What's the matter with Kansas" phenom was shocking, seeing millions vote against their own interests again will be twice as shocking this time.
Hillary was an OK candidate in my opinion until she started loosing, throwing kitchen sinks, and showing desperation that is not becoming anywhere outside of a drunken knife fight to the death!