precisely why we don't need a John W. McHagee administration.

The earthly paradise had been discredited at exactly the moment when it became realizable. Every new political theory, by whatever name it called itself, led back to hierarchy and regimentation. And in the general hardening of outlook that set in round about 1930, practices which had been long abandoned, in some cases for hundreds of years -- imprisonment without trial, the use of war prisoners as slaves, public executions, torture to extract confessions, the use of hostages, and the deportation of whole populations -- not only became common again, but were tolerated and even defended by people who considered themselves enlightened and progressive.

george orwell
"1984"

"Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama were absent from the vote"

Thanks for nothing.

The guy who wants to be the new boss is the same as the old boss... Big f'n surprise, mccan (contort into many interesting positions despite his age) knows on which side his prisoner is buttered.

This is reasonable. Why should legality apply to a criminal organization? What sense does it make to apply restrictions to a top secret government agency that specializes in false flag operations and political assassinations? The CIA's use of torture is only a small shadow of what they really do. It's likely that torturing people is part of their "gentler side".

McCain is a flip-flopper.

Democratic backers of the vetoed bill are far short of the two-thirds majority needed to override Bush's veto.

It is horrifying that many of our congressional leaders support this veto, and thus, support torture.

The US has decidedly lost the moral high-ground on any and all issues.

Well, if we ever get to true war crimes trials, now Bush, McCain and all those congress critters who won't override the veto are all now pretty much on record as 'guilty'. They are all clearly on record as authorizing torture.
----------
Typical Dems. They let people who aren't running for office like Dean make some comments to get headlines, but Obama and Clinton are too chicken to stand up and take a stand. That just says volumes about the Dems. All talk, no action.
-----------
Orwell was a very smart and perceptive man.

Let it be known throughout the world that the USA approves of raping and torturing human beings.

That this isn't the lead story on every news broadcast says just as much about the United States as the veto itself.

My disgust is complete.

There is no difference between Dems and Repubs, except, in general, one believes in the Geneva Conventions and not torturing others, and the other is flexible about morals, ethics, murder...

It looks more and more like America has become a crime family rather than a Constitutional Democracy.We use to say it was only the terrorist regimes that tortured.What does that make us? How about the soldiers that are captured? If we condone it,then this makes them more vulnerable.

Greg R___ You must not have been in this country during the eight years of the Clinton administration when the budget went from an annual deficit (Bush 1 ) to an annual surplus and there was talk of paying off much of the National debt. Now I hope you have noticed what has happened under eight years of another Republican administration, the worst deficits in history and a debt that our grandkids will still be trying to pay.

We also have an unending occupation that is killing thousnds and ruining both Iraq and the US, a coming depression, no standing in the world, the Constitution trampled on, the rich robbing the poor, and much more.

For anyone to say there is no difference in the principles of the Dems and Repugs is laughable and irresponsible. We had a country with a future eight years ago, now no one knows what we are facing, and this stupid trashing Dems is not much help.

The Bush Admin. is training McCain. "Sit, roll over, speak." You get the picture.

This decision by McCain could very well be an election win killer for him this year. This one choice could be his undoing at the polls. I believe he and his handlers have grossly misjudged the American voter sentiments on this issue.

Support your local KRB vote McBush.

claudius is correct, except he should have used the past tense. Rove and Bush have been training McCain ever since the 2000 South Carolina primary where Rove's push poll asked voters if they "would vote for McCain if they knew he had a black baby?". Anybody with an ounce of integrity would have called Bush on that one. McCain, however, just rolled over and has been rolling over for Bush ever since.
Although McCain has refined the theatrics such that he starts out challanging Bush on many issues, he ALWAYS rolls over in the end.

Could his logic be: "Hey, I was captured and tortured, I denounced my country and gave up bogus information, now, 40 short years later, I'm the Republican nominee for President of the United States of America.
How bad could it really be?"

And the abused becomes the abuser once again.

McCain is a classic example of how humanity too often learns lessons in power by emulating former persecutors. He's not real and certainly does not stand for raising the bar. Sadly, his experience didn't result in his developing a strong backbone to stand for what is decent -- but rather to cave to political pressure. He is not the leadership this country and our world needs.

I've heard many people (Repug and Dem) say that "at least McCain has integrity." This should disprove that view once and for all.

This guy is such a suck-ass it's unbelievable. Has he totally lost all of his marbles.

Why in hell can't this country come up with real people as leaders? I suppose it is because the only ones who get as far as the nomination must sell their souls to the corporations who really run this crime enterprise know as the USA.
I am sick to be an American.

Kernel-I intended a facetious response to many of the CDers who see no difference between our 2 political parties. I see a lot of difference, although I often wish for more.

I have become so stoically inured to official doublespeak and 'plausible deniability' that the following quote almost passed clean through my cynicism filters.

"...the CIA no longer uses waterboarding."

Stop, rewind.

But their proxies in Egypt most certainly do. Rendition flights continue.

Kernel: You are right. But the fact still remains that , according to polls, if Clinton were the nominee, most Americans would choose Republican again! With Obama they still might! Unbelievable? Yes, but true. The voters aren't smart enough, I think.

www.NoMcW.com

As I said the other day in a post here, McCain is a Bush clone.

Experience McCain Style = Perfectly Trained to Heel by the Thugs in Power

When the Pentagon get their cut out as Vice - the game will really begin

I agree with KEM PATRICK- "McBush" fits, is the perfect moniker.
Most Americans, regardless of political affiliation, truly are unhappy with the fact that the US has condoned torture, so it seems McBush really did just swing the vote away from himself, at least slightly if not a whole lot- yay!

Senator McClown is also going to visit the terrorist state of Israel next week to drum up support from Amerikan Jews in his run to dictator. Now why whould this five times naval avaitor crash survivalist go to Isreal to get support from US Jews? Don't forget that his admiral daddy was very involved in the USS Libery scandal. Christ, if this guys wins the election I may have to join my fellow retirees and move overseas. Unfortunately, no country will be safe with McClown as president.

McCain trusts the CIA not to use an illegal techniques in their interrogations though they have absolutely no oversight? What is he, a moron (or does he believe correctly that US voters are morons)? He has the nerve to call Obama naive and inexperienced, because he wants to use diplomacy with our enemies? Obama should take a stand on this issue, and use it against Clinton and John McFlipflop. That would be change I can believe in. I'm with "kittyladyoregon." I keep waiting for a real human (humane?) being with principals to step up and lead this country. No comment from Clinton or Obama? WTF?

Room 101 is a torture chamber in the Ministry of Love in which a prisoner is subjected to his or her own worst nightmare, i.e. another Republican Government.

Who knows what Evil Lurks in the hearts of men? The McCain de Sade knows! Ha, Ha, Ha...

It's a frightening thought now, but I would have voted for this man in 2000. I actually thought he was a man of honor. Turns out he is just another crooked politician who will do or say anything to get a vote. He sponsored a bill against torture but now thinks torture is OK. He was against Bush's tax cut but now he wants to make it permanent. I guess I can no longer call myself an Independent because it will be a cold day in hell before I even consider voting for a Republican. If this is what Hillary means about having "years of experience" then I think it's about time we vote all the bastards out. Experience without a brain doesn't mean dick. Some people max out the second day on a job.

So McCain, who famously had been a victim of torture, decides to support torture...just so long as he is not the victim.

"And the abused becomes the abuser once again."

Perfect.

And to think he suffered torture himself. My god.

I'm sorry Kernel but the Clinton years, however profitable they might have been for some was at the expense of the middle class just as it is now. The Dems have been and continue to be a war party and neither of the presidential candidates are likely to change this. Is there a difference in outlook? Sure there is among the rank and file of each party. The clear majority of Americans, some who call themselves Democrats and some who call themselves Republicans are disillusioned and unrepresented by either party and struggle with various issues that make them step up to the agreement booth and push the button, pull the lever or punch the card for their interpretation of the lesser of two evils.

Unfortunately, this does not result in satisfaction for any of us.
One very small event could make a great deal of difference in accountability among the group of theives and liars who make up our government. It's called instant run-off voting and would mean that the public could vote it's conscience #1 and the lesser of two evils #2. If you think that would make no difference consider that both parties would then have to consider a much broader range of policy alternatives and be much more attentive to the public or face the possibility of a 1st round split that could leave one of their candidates out in the cold. It would also leverage debate time for third party candidates to bring real issues to the table rather than kick around dead issues and red herrings to avoid saying anything too controversial during the last two years of their nauseatingly long campaigns for office.

Sorry Kernel - hold the Dems feet to the fire on IRV or encourage all the Dems to vote for Nader. Wouldn't that open their eyes to their complete lack of accountability to the party base and defeat the Republicans at the same time?

A vote for the Democrats is a vote for the Republicans! Nader '08

What is this, "Invasion of the Pod People"? McCain has done a 180 on practically everything he's ever said he stood for. I just saw him interviewed, asked directly if waterboarding is torture. He said, YES, IT IS TORTURE. No dissembling, no qualifying. The interviewer asked how America could have gone so wrong and McCain answered that he didn't know but thought we should have listened to the recommendations of Colin Powell. How can he THEN support Bush on torture?

Joe Maurer 12:08 "I believe he and his handlers have grossly misjudged the American voter sentiments on this issue."

Surely, you are right!

Humans, given the 'right' circumstances, are more than capable of carrying out torture and much, much worse! Let's face it; we are basically beasts, bloodthirsty savages, superstitious primitives.

It's time we accepted what we are and, if it worries us, then we must look for ways to change ourselves, to get rid of some of our dark instincts permanently. That would involve changing some of our genes!

www.dangerouscreation.com

Well, as I see it the whole election race should become very simple - ALL REPUBLICANS CAN NEVER BE ELECTED - I do apologise to the exceptions like Ron Paul, because the US is damned for evermore, and so is the World.
It only remains for the sane people, to return the lunatics to the asylum.

John McCain withstood North Vietmanese torture only to give in to George Bush, the draft dodger. What cruel irony.

So McCain believes waterboarding is torture and illegal, but he doesn't feel Congress has the right to tell CIA what it can use? Is there some logic here that escapes me? I hope Obama can use this to keep poor, plodding McCain and his tortured logic out of the White House.

McCain is a weak man and it appears a stupid one to boot. Did you hear him go after Clinton for his little personal adulterous lie in the impeachment hearing. McCain is a shrill little stupid weak man. He is a bigger liar and a hypocrite than Clinton ever thought of being. I just can't imagine anyone taking a Republican seriously. Have you forgotten Newt and how he had a woman on the side while he was going after Clinton for his sex stuff. Of course, Bush and Cheney started a war based on lies. One million Iraq citizen dead for no reason. One million. Four thousand American soldiers dead for no reason. McCain would have us there for 100 years. He hasn't explained why we were there for the last five disastrous, catastrophic, stupid years. That should be his first job. And we don't torture. Bush said that. Another Republican liar. The amazing thing is that they just do it in broad day light. Doing a heck of a job. Liars. Liars. Liars. You'd have to be a moron to be a Republican.

If I understand his long, convoluted rationalization he is saying that the CIA should have the same limits outlined in the Army FM, but not be under the jurisdiction of, nor be bound by, the Army FM. Actually I can see that: The CIA does not answer to the Army.

But what McCain does say is at best naive given the history of this administration. He said in his statement, "What we need is not to tie the CIA to the Army Field Manual, but rather to have a good-faith interpretation of the statutes that guide what is permissible in the CIA program."

Good faith. Voluntary compliance. Under this administration.

Yeah, Right.

I wonder what his mother "truly" thinks of him now after praising him for his former beliefs and votes against torture?

What some people won't do to have the word "President" in front of their name!

Mom McCain is either:

1. walking around with a broken heart
or
2. mad as hell and demands identification every time she sees her son.

kittyladyoregon said:

"Why in hell can't this country come up with real people as leaders?"

Under Republican rule government and Congress has become such a cesspool that it is only possible for one thing to float to the top.

Somebody needs to in-your-face McPain with the question: So you would have felt ok about being tortured by North Vietnamese national intelligence, rather than by North Vietnamese regular military?

Cowardly idiot.

Senator John McCain has sold his soul for the Republican nomination. .He is dancing with Mad George "Wacko" Bush, and has secretely promised the Vice Presidency to "Slippery Dick" Cheney.

If is sad to see this sick old John McCain embracing the "Dark Side". .So Very Sad !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So Very Shameful !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So much for McCain being a man of principles. That's completely out the window now that he has decided to throw in with criminals Bush and Cheney. What happened to his principled stand against the US using torture? He held that position for a long time and stood up to Bush/Cheney, but now, in search of conservative (read: fascist) support he abandons the position he defended so eloquently for so long. He was against torture because he knew that if we tortured it would influence our adversaries to do the same to our soldiers and others if they are taken prisoner or as hostages. And now, in order to pander to the neocon far right, he simply drops the principled position. What does this say about McCain. Nothing good.

I have in front of me a printout of an article in the Cleveland Plain Dealer written b y Amanda Garret that says 16,ooo plus Republicans in Cuyahoga County switched parties when they voted in last week's primary in Ohio. Copying from the article now - "931 in Rocky River, 1,027 in Westlake, 1,142 in Strongville, more than a third of the Republicans in Solon and Bay Village switched. Pepper Pike had the most dramatic change: just under half its Republicans became Democrats". Further down in the article it states, "It started a few weeks ago when conservative radio powerhouse Rush Limbaugh suggested that his Republican following cross over during the primary to vote for Clinton. Clinton, Limbaugh argued, would be easier for McCain to beat in November than Obama." That's the gist of the article.

Clinton did win Ohio by about 10%, and I'm wondering if other couties and other states won by Clinton did the same thing??? I live in southern Ohio - I heard gossip that if one wanted a McCain victory to just vote for Clinton, but I did not believe people would do that! Then along comes this article!

Just wondering if this sort of thing was talked about in other states, and wondering how to find out! If this should be true, I wouldn't believe ANY election result in states won by Clinton.

"any U.S. interrogator who uses it risks criminal prosecution"....YEAH RIGHT...BY WHOM?

McCain is obviously in the throws od Alzhiemers, and has forgotten that he used to oppose torture...

So, what does it feel like to sell your soul Johnny? How much did you get for the tattered old thing?