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TechnoratiMcCain Supports Bush Veto of Bill Banning Torture
Doesn't Want CIA Limited To Methods Used by Military
When President Bush vetoed legislation Saturday that would have prohibited the CIA from using physical force in interrogations, he had the support of Sen. John McCain - the most outspoken of any presidential candidate in his opposition to torture.The Arizona Republican has described his own torture by the North Vietnamese, who captured him in 1967 after his plane was shot down on a bombing run. He spoke out against the near-drowning technique called waterboarding when it was being defended by other Republican candidates and by Vice President Dick Cheney.
And McCain won the signature of a reluctant Bush on 2005 legislation that prohibited military interrogators from using waterboarding and other "cruel, inhumane or degrading" methods.
On Saturday, however, McCain backed Bush's veto of a bill that would have barred the CIA from employing those same techniques - or any others not authorized by the Army Field Manual - when questioning prisoners.
In a Saturday morning radio address announcing the veto, Bush said the measure would have barred "safe and lawful" interrogation methods that have prevented terrorist attacks.
"This is no time for Congress to abandon practices that have a proven track record of keeping America safe," the president said.
He did not specify those practices, but repeated previous statements that the CIA no longer uses waterboarding.
In congressional testimony last month, however, Justice Department official Stephen Bradbury indicated the administration does not consider waterboarding illegal in all circumstances and reserved the right to resume its use by the CIA.
Campaign aides said Saturday that McCain believes waterboarding violates both U.S. and international law and is forbidden to all federal agencies. Randy Scheunemann, foreign policy director for McCain's campaign, denied any inconsistency between the senator's record and his position on the bill.
"It's not about waterboarding and it's not about torture," Scheunemann said.
He said McCain opposed the bill for the same reason he exempted the CIA from his 2005 legislation: his belief that the agency should not be limited to methods spelled out in a public Army manual.
McCain feels "it's a good thing that (the CIA can use) enhanced interrogation techniques that are not revealed in your newspaper," Scheunemann said. He declined to identify methods that McCain believes should remain available to the CIA while being off-limits to military interrogators.
The Army Field Manual prohibits the use of force during interrogation. Among the techniques it forbids, in addition to waterboarding, are beatings, burns and electric shock; use of extreme heat; use of dogs; mock executions; forced nudity or sexual acts; hooding or taping a prisoner's eyes; prolonged sleep deprivation; and denial of needed food, water or medical care.
Democratic backers of the vetoed bill are far short of the two-thirds majority needed to override Bush's veto.
"This president had the chance to end the torture debate for good," said Democratic California Sen. Dianne Feinstein, a sponsor of the legislation. "Yet he chose instead to leave the door open to use torture in the future."
When the Senate passed the measure by a 51-45 vote on Feb. 13, McCain insisted that his opposition did not signal a retreat from his position on torture.
His 2005 legislation restricting military interrogation methods exempted the CIA but was not intended to "permit the CIA to use unduly coercive techniques," McCain said in a Senate floor statement.
He said the Bush administration should acknowledge "what is clear in current law," that waterboarding is illegal and that any U.S. interrogator who uses it risks criminal prosecution. But McCain did not specify any other techniques that should be allowed or prohibited, or explain why Congress should not set uniform standards.
Human-rights lawyers who praised McCain for his stand against torture said they were disappointed by his position on the bill and bewildered by his explanation.
"I remain convinced that he is personally opposed to these techniques," said New York attorney Scott Horton, a former president of the International League for Human Rights. But as long as the Bush administration is free to apply its view of the law, he said, the veto McCain supported will allow the CIA to use interrogation methods the senator opposes.
"I think Sen. McCain's faith that the administration will implement the law in the manner he describes is seriously misplaced," said James Cullen, a New York lawyer, retired brigadier general and former chief judge of the Army Court of Criminal Appeals.
Both of McCain's potential Democratic rivals, Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama, were absent from the vote but have said they support the vetoed bill. Neither has made it a campaign issue, however, and neither commented on Bush's veto.
Democratic National Chairman Howard Dean used the occasion to take a swipe at McCain.
"It is shameful that George Bush and John McCain lack the courage to ban torture," Dean said in a statement. "And it is reprehensible that McCain changed his position on torture just to win an election."
-- The full text of McCain's statement explaining his vote can be read online at sfgate.com/ZCRL.
E-mail Bob Egelko at begelko@sfchronicle.com.
© 2008 The San Francisco Chronicle
69 Comments so far
Show Alloops... I mean the world's richest nation!
Well, if this battle star manages to get the oval office we can kiss the USA goodbye. Even the higher order of evolved souls loses patience when individuals who were given life lessons (Mccain's own exposure to torture) and learn NOTHING. What's particularly criminal about this lack of realization is when it produces HORROR for others.
Shakespeare must have understood the direction of mankind's trajectory when he penned the lines, "fair is foul and foul is fair." I remember when Black comedians on late night TV would say, "That's bad" and they meant, "it's good or cool." Little by little the substance of things, beginning with language, turned on themselves. The nation's richest nation, now the greatest debtor. The nation that called itself the peace agent/policeman of the world, busily arming impoverished nations, leaving a litter of DU and/or land mines behind, that is when substances as toxic as agent orange aren't mutating the food supply, a gift that keeps on giving as they say.
The arm of justice, on cosmic terms, takes time; and in my view, the clockworks of planned planetary agents placed in quite specific orbits leads to predictable events when some of these "dials" line up. The US has not had to deal with the opposition of Pluto since its inception, that "planet" requiring 248 years for its orbit. From 2010 until 2016 the US will be dealing with this factor, amid a number of intense challenges. One does not have to be an astrologer or study the "as above, so below" Divine equation to recognize where our economy is headed; or how far into obscurity our Bill of Rights have fallen, etc.
On individual levels, it's important to live the example of decency, justice and compassion; and yet, there is also national karma, a shared fate in which we all find ourselves involved. GRACE can happen, but right now, it's the shit on a massive scale that it's in the proverbial fan.
Who is electing the cloned bush? Seems to me this idiot is answering to the present Administration instead of anwering to the people and to the Constitution. What a ton of crock. And who wants to look at this eyesore who looks like something that craweled out of a swamp. The lizard man.
John McBush: Straight Jacket Express
This is precisely why Sen. McCain should not be president.
Dirtman37, others have also said that McCain sold out his fellow POWs while he was held captive by the NV. Do you have any links you can point us to, because I'd love to learn more about this. (I'd never heard this until I read some posts about it here on CD.) If this is true, it would be great ammo against him in the general election when he's being touted as an "American hero."
"Although McCain has refined the theatrics such that he starts out challanging Bush on many issues, he ALWAYS rolls over in the end."
"So much for McCain being a man of principles. That's completely out the window now that he has decided to throw in with criminals Bush and Cheney. What happened to his principled stand against the US using torture?"
These two comments from posts above sum up the B/S of the "straight talk express" The Straight talk express is pure trash- McCain has ALWAYS backed off his straight talk when called out by party hacks. Remember the impeachment? McCain: "Let's just get on with the country's buisiness and stop wasting money and time on this" Result? Voted to impeach and did nothing to stop the process, recanted the statement after Lott et al said "stand down solider" He did not put up much of a fight in South Carolina or against Bush in 2000, when he truly could have made a significant run. He does an about face on torture, the list goes on and on. While I am just preaching to the choir here, what McCain has been and always will be good at doing is taking orders from superiors and rolling over (intersting story about him caving and making propoganda tapes- is there a link to verifiy this? If so it is so unfair as Kerry gets blasted for protesting the war, yet McCain gets a free pass for what is a much more heinous crime leading directly to much more pain and suffering to US soliders) Straight talk, my arse.
Btw....At what point will Hillary and Obama rush back to DC to vote for and show true bipartisian leadership in mustering up the votes to override the veto? (cue the crickets chirping in the background)
And to think he suffered torture himself. My god.
That's how we learn it! My own belief is that it usually starts with child abuse, which is the most common form of torture, but anyone who has been treated cruelly for an extended period will come to see the world as a cruel place and act accordingly, sometimes trying to meet their own needs by using methods similar to the ones that have been demonstrated upon them. There's going to be an internal conflict regarding how to change their situation. Perhaps what was done to McCain was worse than waterboarding, so in his perspective it isn't as bad as it would be to someone who hasn't been tortured like he was.
How should one behave in Hell?
Does this comment also include the Jews?
Of course, it includes both the Jews and the Palestinians! The more each group focuses on their collective suffering in order to trump the suffering of any other group, the greater the suffering they can justify inflicting upon individuals of other groups. Do unto others as others have done unto you; inflict horrors until the world become a just place (for you, the one who has suffered the most); keep trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Add some BBQ sauce and sizzle, hmmmm good
Because you know, it's not quite cannibalism, right ?
Remember: Terrorists, or even someone who may, in some former or future lifetime, have been or will be or may be a terrorist, is defined as an "other."
"Others" are not quite human.
What's a little controlled drowning to not quite humans?
There. Feel better?
There is no big surprise here. 'Flip flopping' McCain wants the votes of the religious wacko's and the war mongers. This is the only way he can get them. So he is going to fall in line with George W Bush policies. He will continue to fall in line if he is elected President. Because all he is going to be thinking about is getting reelected. They won't reelected him if he shows even a glimmer or having a mind of his own. So whomever the Democratic candidate is they get my vote.
barely human!
And the abused becomes the abuser once again.
Does this comment also include the Jews?
Hooray! Torture wins!
You don't have to look very far to see why the American public doesn't vote anymore. One candidate condones torchure and the other two candidates don't have the balls (no pun to Hillary)to stand up against it.
MIAGREEK: you are right, when it comes right down to it, behind closed doors,would Clinton or Obama do anything different on some of these important issues. ANYONE can say that they are going to do this or change that. When it comes time to make a public stand (vote) they don't bother to show up to vote. This is not the first important vote that they havn't bother to show up to vote for. Isn't that what they get paid for? They probably wouldn't show up for an impeachment vote either, unless they could get some press from it.
There is no one left that I can vote for to be president.
Bruce Springsteen ... Magic
I got a coin in my palm I can make it disappear
I got a card up my sleeve Name it and I'll pull it out your ear
I got a rabbit in my hat If you wanna come and see
This is what will be This is what will be
I got shackles on my wrists Soon I'll slip 'em and be gone
Chain me in a box in your river And I'll rise singin' this song
Trust none of what you hear And less of what you see
This is what will be This is what will be
I'll cut you in half I got a shiny saw blade
All I need's a volunteer I'll cut you in half
While you're smilin' ear to ear
And the freedom that you sought's
Driftin' like a ghost amongst the trees
This is what will be this is what will be
Now there's a fire down below But it's coming up here
So leave everything you know Carry only what you fear
On the road the sun is sinkin' low
There's bodies hangin' in the trees
This is what will be
This is what will be
I guess Ms. Clinton and Mr. Obama couldn't be bothered to get back to Washington to vote on the original vote. And both claim that they'll change current policy. Just when will that do that? (They sure had the chance already. If anyone can find any substantial difference between Senators Clinton, McCain, or Obama, please stand up.
beyondempire___Your idea of IRV type of elections would possibly be an improvement, and I am not at all happy about the present system. However, do you think that change could be made without a revolution, given that the powerful of all shades are running the country?
Just because an idea is a good one does not mean it can be adopted as many will think it is not an improvement, and in any case, could take years to implement. I am not ready to give up on this country, and to not vote or vote for an impossible candidate to win seems non-productive.
They say a bird in the hand beats two in the bush, and that is why I believe we must go with the lesser of two evils this time and try to save our country. Then would be a fine time to get some of these ideas worked on and do better next time.
GKL March 10th, 2008 5:29 pm
John McCain withstood North Vietmanese torture only to give in to George Bush, the draft dodger. What cruel irony.
You need to get your facts straight GKL.
McCoward was tortured for 4 days before caving in and doing propaganda films after signing confessions for NV. He then recieved special treatment as testified to by his fellow prisoners.This can and has been verified.
Now he is saying information gotten from terrorists by these means saves live here in our country. Sorry but John Boy can't have it both ways.
I understand that the McCain campaign fight song is being changed from 'bomb, bomb, Iran' to an English language rendition of 'Deutchland Uber Alles'.
"any U.S. interrogator who uses it risks criminal prosecution"....YEAH RIGHT...BY WHOM?
McCain is obviously in the throws od Alzhiemers, and has forgotten that he used to oppose torture...
So, what does it feel like to sell your soul Johnny? How much did you get for the tattered old thing?
I have in front of me a printout of an article in the Cleveland Plain Dealer written b y Amanda Garret that says 16,ooo plus Republicans in Cuyahoga County switched parties when they voted in last week's primary in Ohio. Copying from the article now - "931 in Rocky River, 1,027 in Westlake, 1,142 in Strongville, more than a third of the Republicans in Solon and Bay Village switched. Pepper Pike had the most dramatic change: just under half its Republicans became Democrats". Further down in the article it states, "It started a few weeks ago when conservative radio powerhouse Rush Limbaugh suggested that his Republican following cross over during the primary to vote for Clinton. Clinton, Limbaugh argued, would be easier for McCain to beat in November than Obama." That's the gist of the article.
Clinton did win Ohio by about 10%, and I'm wondering if other couties and other states won by Clinton did the same thing??? I live in southern Ohio - I heard gossip that if one wanted a McCain victory to just vote for Clinton, but I did not believe people would do that! Then along comes this article!
Just wondering if this sort of thing was talked about in other states, and wondering how to find out! If this should be true, I wouldn't believe ANY election result in states won by Clinton.
So much for McCain being a man of principles. That's completely out the window now that he has decided to throw in with criminals Bush and Cheney. What happened to his principled stand against the US using torture? He held that position for a long time and stood up to Bush/Cheney, but now, in search of conservative (read: fascist) support he abandons the position he defended so eloquently for so long. He was against torture because he knew that if we tortured it would influence our adversaries to do the same to our soldiers and others if they are taken prisoner or as hostages. And now, in order to pander to the neocon far right, he simply drops the principled position. What does this say about McCain. Nothing good.
Senator John McCain has sold his soul for the Republican nomination. .He is dancing with Mad George "Wacko" Bush, and has secretely promised the Vice Presidency to "Slippery Dick" Cheney.
If is sad to see this sick old John McCain embracing the "Dark Side". .So Very Sad !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So Very Shameful !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Somebody needs to in-your-face McPain with the question: So you would have felt ok about being tortured by North Vietnamese national intelligence, rather than by North Vietnamese regular military?
Cowardly idiot.
kittyladyoregon said:
"Why in hell can't this country come up with real people as leaders?"
Under Republican rule government and Congress has become such a cesspool that it is only possible for one thing to float to the top.
Mom McCain is either:
1. walking around with a broken heart
or
2. mad as hell and demands identification every time she sees her son.
I wonder what his mother "truly" thinks of him now after praising him for his former beliefs and votes against torture?
What some people won't do to have the word "President" in front of their name!
If I understand his long, convoluted rationalization he is saying that the CIA should have the same limits outlined in the Army FM, but not be under the jurisdiction of, nor be bound by, the Army FM. Actually I can see that: The CIA does not answer to the Army.
But what McCain does say is at best naive given the history of this administration. He said in his statement, "What we need is not to tie the CIA to the Army Field Manual, but rather to have a good-faith interpretation of the statutes that guide what is permissible in the CIA program."
Good faith. Voluntary compliance. Under this administration.
Yeah, Right.
McCain is a weak man and it appears a stupid one to boot. Did you hear him go after Clinton for his little personal adulterous lie in the impeachment hearing. McCain is a shrill little stupid weak man. He is a bigger liar and a hypocrite than Clinton ever thought of being. I just can't imagine anyone taking a Republican seriously. Have you forgotten Newt and how he had a woman on the side while he was going after Clinton for his sex stuff. Of course, Bush and Cheney started a war based on lies. One million Iraq citizen dead for no reason. One million. Four thousand American soldiers dead for no reason. McCain would have us there for 100 years. He hasn't explained why we were there for the last five disastrous, catastrophic, stupid years. That should be his first job. And we don't torture. Bush said that. Another Republican liar. The amazing thing is that they just do it in broad day light. Doing a heck of a job. Liars. Liars. Liars. You'd have to be a moron to be a Republican.
So McCain believes waterboarding is torture and illegal, but he doesn't feel Congress has the right to tell CIA what it can use? Is there some logic here that escapes me? I hope Obama can use this to keep poor, plodding McCain and his tortured logic out of the White House.
John McCain withstood North Vietmanese torture only to give in to George Bush, the draft dodger. What cruel irony.
Well, as I see it the whole election race should become very simple - ALL REPUBLICANS CAN NEVER BE ELECTED - I do apologise to the exceptions like Ron Paul, because the US is damned for evermore, and so is the World.
It only remains for the sane people, to return the lunatics to the asylum.
Humans, given the 'right' circumstances, are more than capable of carrying out torture and much, much worse! Let's face it; we are basically beasts, bloodthirsty savages, superstitious primitives.
It's time we accepted what we are and, if it worries us, then we must look for ways to change ourselves, to get rid of some of our dark instincts permanently. That would involve changing some of our genes!
www.dangerouscreation.com
What is this, "Invasion of the Pod People"? McCain has done a 180 on practically everything he's ever said he stood for. I just saw him interviewed, asked directly if waterboarding is torture. He said, YES, IT IS TORTURE. No dissembling, no qualifying. The interviewer asked how America could have gone so wrong and McCain answered that he didn't know but thought we should have listened to the recommendations of Colin Powell. How can he THEN support Bush on torture?
Joe Maurer 12:08 "I believe he and his handlers have grossly misjudged the American voter sentiments on this issue."
Surely, you are right!
I'm sorry Kernel but the Clinton years, however profitable they might have been for some was at the expense of the middle class just as it is now. The Dems have been and continue to be a war party and neither of the presidential candidates are likely to change this. Is there a difference in outlook? Sure there is among the rank and file of each party. The clear majority of Americans, some who call themselves Democrats and some who call themselves Republicans are disillusioned and unrepresented by either party and struggle with various issues that make them step up to the agreement booth and push the button, pull the lever or punch the card for their interpretation of the lesser of two evils.
Unfortunately, this does not result in satisfaction for any of us.
One very small event could make a great deal of difference in accountability among the group of theives and liars who make up our government. It's called instant run-off voting and would mean that the public could vote it's conscience #1 and the lesser of two evils #2. If you think that would make no difference consider that both parties would then have to consider a much broader range of policy alternatives and be much more attentive to the public or face the possibility of a 1st round split that could leave one of their candidates out in the cold. It would also leverage debate time for third party candidates to bring real issues to the table rather than kick around dead issues and red herrings to avoid saying anything too controversial during the last two years of their nauseatingly long campaigns for office.
Sorry Kernel - hold the Dems feet to the fire on IRV or encourage all the Dems to vote for Nader. Wouldn't that open their eyes to their complete lack of accountability to the party base and defeat the Republicans at the same time?
A vote for the Democrats is a vote for the Republicans! Nader '08
"And the abused becomes the abuser once again."
Perfect.
And to think he suffered torture himself. My god.
So McCain, who famously had been a victim of torture, decides to support torture...just so long as he is not the victim.
It's a frightening thought now, but I would have voted for this man in 2000. I actually thought he was a man of honor. Turns out he is just another crooked politician who will do or say anything to get a vote. He sponsored a bill against torture but now thinks torture is OK. He was against Bush's tax cut but now he wants to make it permanent. I guess I can no longer call myself an Independent because it will be a cold day in hell before I even consider voting for a Republican. If this is what Hillary means about having "years of experience" then I think it's about time we vote all the bastards out. Experience without a brain doesn't mean dick. Some people max out the second day on a job.
Room 101 is a torture chamber in the Ministry of Love in which a prisoner is subjected to his or her own worst nightmare, i.e. another Republican Government.
Who knows what Evil Lurks in the hearts of men? The McCain de Sade knows! Ha, Ha, Ha...
McCain trusts the CIA not to use an illegal techniques in their interrogations though they have absolutely no oversight? What is he, a moron (or does he believe correctly that US voters are morons)? He has the nerve to call Obama naive and inexperienced, because he wants to use diplomacy with our enemies? Obama should take a stand on this issue, and use it against Clinton and John McFlipflop. That would be change I can believe in. I'm with "kittyladyoregon." I keep waiting for a real human (humane?) being with principals to step up and lead this country. No comment from Clinton or Obama? WTF?
Senator McClown is also going to visit the terrorist state of Israel next week to drum up support from Amerikan Jews in his run to dictator. Now why whould this five times naval avaitor crash survivalist go to Isreal to get support from US Jews? Don't forget that his admiral daddy was very involved in the USS Libery scandal. Christ, if this guys wins the election I may have to join my fellow retirees and move overseas. Unfortunately, no country will be safe with McClown as president.
I agree with KEM PATRICK- "McBush" fits, is the perfect moniker.
Most Americans, regardless of political affiliation, truly are unhappy with the fact that the US has condoned torture, so it seems McBush really did just swing the vote away from himself, at least slightly if not a whole lot- yay!
When the Pentagon get their cut out as Vice - the game will really begin
As I said the other day in a post here, McCain is a Bush clone.
Experience McCain Style = Perfectly Trained to Heel by the Thugs in Power
www.NoMcW.com
Kernel: You are right. But the fact still remains that , according to polls, if Clinton were the nominee, most Americans would choose Republican again! With Obama they still might! Unbelievable? Yes, but true. The voters aren't smart enough, I think.
I have become so stoically inured to official doublespeak and 'plausible deniability' that the following quote almost passed clean through my cynicism filters.
"...the CIA no longer uses waterboarding."
Stop, rewind.
But their proxies in Egypt most certainly do. Rendition flights continue.
Kernel-I intended a facetious response to many of the CDers who see no difference between our 2 political parties. I see a lot of difference, although I often wish for more.
Why in hell can't this country come up with real people as leaders? I suppose it is because the only ones who get as far as the nomination must sell their souls to the corporations who really run this crime enterprise know as the USA.
I am sick to be an American.
This guy is such a suck-ass it's unbelievable. Has he totally lost all of his marbles.
I've heard many people (Repug and Dem) say that "at least McCain has integrity." This should disprove that view once and for all.
McCain is a classic example of how humanity too often learns lessons in power by emulating former persecutors. He's not real and certainly does not stand for raising the bar. Sadly, his experience didn't result in his developing a strong backbone to stand for what is decent -- but rather to cave to political pressure. He is not the leadership this country and our world needs.
And the abused becomes the abuser once again.
Could his logic be: "Hey, I was captured and tortured, I denounced my country and gave up bogus information, now, 40 short years later, I'm the Republican nominee for President of the United States of America.
How bad could it really be?"
claudius is correct, except he should have used the past tense. Rove and Bush have been training McCain ever since the 2000 South Carolina primary where Rove's push poll asked voters if they "would vote for McCain if they knew he had a black baby?". Anybody with an ounce of integrity would have called Bush on that one. McCain, however, just rolled over and has been rolling over for Bush ever since.
Although McCain has refined the theatrics such that he starts out challanging Bush on many issues, he ALWAYS rolls over in the end.
Support your local KRB vote McBush.
This decision by McCain could very well be an election win killer for him this year. This one choice could be his undoing at the polls. I believe he and his handlers have grossly misjudged the American voter sentiments on this issue.
The Bush Admin. is training McCain. "Sit, roll over, speak." You get the picture.
Greg R___ You must not have been in this country during the eight years of the Clinton administration when the budget went from an annual deficit (Bush 1 ) to an annual surplus and there was talk of paying off much of the National debt. Now I hope you have noticed what has happened under eight years of another Republican administration, the worst deficits in history and a debt that our grandkids will still be trying to pay.
We also have an unending occupation that is killing thousnds and ruining both Iraq and the US, a coming depression, no standing in the world, the Constitution trampled on, the rich robbing the poor, and much more.
For anyone to say there is no difference in the principles of the Dems and Repugs is laughable and irresponsible. We had a country with a future eight years ago, now no one knows what we are facing, and this stupid trashing Dems is not much help.
It looks more and more like America has become a crime family rather than a Constitutional Democracy.We use to say it was only the terrorist regimes that tortured.What does that make us? How about the soldiers that are captured? If we condone it,then this makes them more vulnerable.
There is no difference between Dems and Repubs, except, in general, one believes in the Geneva Conventions and not torturing others, and the other is flexible about morals, ethics, murder...
Let it be known throughout the world that the USA approves of raping and torturing human beings.
That this isn't the lead story on every news broadcast says just as much about the United States as the veto itself.
My disgust is complete.
Well, if we ever get to true war crimes trials, now Bush, McCain and all those congress critters who won't override the veto are all now pretty much on record as 'guilty'. They are all clearly on record as authorizing torture.
----------
Typical Dems. They let people who aren't running for office like Dean make some comments to get headlines, but Obama and Clinton are too chicken to stand up and take a stand. That just says volumes about the Dems. All talk, no action.
-----------
Orwell was a very smart and perceptive man.
McCain is a flip-flopper.
Democratic backers of the vetoed bill are far short of the two-thirds majority needed to override Bush's veto.
It is horrifying that many of our congressional leaders support this veto, and thus, support torture.
The US has decidedly lost the moral high-ground on any and all issues.
This is reasonable. Why should legality apply to a criminal organization? What sense does it make to apply restrictions to a top secret government agency that specializes in false flag operations and political assassinations? The CIA's use of torture is only a small shadow of what they really do. It's likely that torturing people is part of their "gentler side".
The guy who wants to be the new boss is the same as the old boss... Big f'n surprise, mccan (contort into many interesting positions despite his age) knows on which side his prisoner is buttered.
"Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama were absent from the vote"
Thanks for nothing.
The earthly paradise had been discredited at exactly the moment when it became realizable. Every new political theory, by whatever name it called itself, led back to hierarchy and regimentation. And in the general hardening of outlook that set in round about 1930, practices which had been long abandoned, in some cases for hundreds of years -- imprisonment without trial, the use of war prisoners as slaves, public executions, torture to extract confessions, the use of hostages, and the deportation of whole populations -- not only became common again, but were tolerated and even defended by people who considered themselves enlightened and progressive.
george orwell
"1984"
precisely why we don't need a John W. McHagee administration.