On Saturday, Mr. Bush vetoed a bill that would have outlawed the CIA's use of torture in interrogations (a bill, it should be noted, John McCain, alleged opponent of torture, voted against). He had the temerity, our Dear Leader, to begin his official endorsement of torture in his radio address this morning with these words: "Good morning." Good for him and his kind of delusional sadists, maybe. Not so good for this country, whose reputation today takes one more plunk toward the abyss of rogue and less than ordinary nations. Not so good for the rest of the world, either, whose nations have been disbelievingly howling, in Babels of translations, that most American of plaints: "Say it ain't so." This spring training for terrorist-interrogators (for torture is terrorism at its distilled worst), it very much is so. The United States is officially, proudly, the land of torturers. It's true that the United States has been at this for years. But the difference here is not only that the president is endorsing torture, but that he's doing it so openly and willfully. It isn't arrogance anymore. It isn't even hubris. Arrogance and hubris suggest that at least some awareness that public perceptions still matter. In Bush's mind, perceptions are for the birds. This is pure tyranny. His statement embracing torture, a study in mendacity, is worth a line-by-line look.
"This week," he began, "I addressed the Department of Homeland Security on its fifth anniversary and thanked the men and women who work tirelessly to keep us safe." Really? As of last May 1, Homeland Security, the Washington Post reported, "had 138 vacancies among its top 575 positions, with the greatest voids reported in its policy, legal and intelligence sections, as well as in immigration agencies, the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the Coast Guard." It got so bad that a panicky report was sent to the House committee overseeing the department-the department led, as we unfortunately know, by the intrepidly dismal Michael Chertoff, who captained the agency through its finest hour: its spectatorship of Hurricane Katrina's aftermath.
"Because the danger remains," Bush continued, "we need to ensure our intelligence officials have all the tools they need to stop the terrorists." All the tools. Not the necessary tools, but all the tools. The most effective way not to worry about crossing the line into the dark side is not to have a line at all. For the Dear leader there is no question of nuance, of the difference between right and wrong. It is all right as long as he declares it so. By all means necessary (although I hate to soil Malcolm's fine line, given its context, with the Dear Leader's criminal intent). But by that reasoning, nuking Kandahar would be justified. Aren't nuclear weapons also tools in the fight against "terrorism"? One day, the question may well be answered. Especially if the country insists on electing John McCain (and liberals who personally despise the black one or the bitch, as their prejudices couch them, insist on helping along the reactionaries).
Where Bush Lies Like a Nixonian Sweat Bead
"The bill Congress sent me would take away one of the most valuable tools in the war on terror -- the CIA program to detain and question key terrorist leaders and operatives." The bill, of course, does no such thing. It does not take away the CIA's right to detain anyone. It does not take away the CIA's right to question anyone. It only forbids the CIA to employ waterboarding and other forms of torture or degrading and dehumanizing treatment of inmates-inmates, we should always, always remember, who aren't terrorists, but alleged terrorists. Until they are proven so, it is only their incarcerators who are the demonstrably proven terrorists.
Bush then lists a series of supposed terrorist attacks the interrogations foiled. We have to trust him on that one, as several of them have never been mentioned before. Trusting Bush at this point, of course, is an exercise best left to the pathologically cretinous. One example from the plots Bush does mention-the supposed attack on the Library Tower in Los Angeles. It's an old story, peddled by his administration since 2002. But when even the Voice of America, which is barely two radio waves removed from Radio White House, gives credence to doubts about the Dear Leader's story, it's time to give his fictions a chance to get sold as the latest memoir. "Micheal Scheuer, who was the leading al-Qaida expert in the CIA's counter-terrorism center in 2002," VOA reported in 2006, "says he is not aware of any such serious threat against the West Coast in 2002. As the man in the CIA who knew more about Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida than perhaps any other agency officer, he says it is unlikely that he would not have been kept informed on such a plot. "It could be that it was very closely held, but I think that's unlikely," he said. "It could be just a function of my failing memory. But this doesn't sound like anything that I would recall as a major threat, or as a major success in stopping it.'"
Brutality's Euphemisms
Bush in his radio address then moves on to euphemizing torture as "specialized interrogation procedures to question a small number of the most dangerous terrorists under careful supervision." It's a little disingenuous for the man who turned extraordinary renditions into a secret competitor of Disney's Vacation Club, the man who replaced the Soviet Union's gulags with a secret gulag of his own (using, cleverly, the Soviet Union's old prisons in some cases, as in Poland and Romania), the man under whose careful supervision the likes of Khaled el Masri and Maher Arar were wrongly imprisoned, tortured in Afghanistan and Syria, and released without apologies long after the CIA knew they had the wrong men-it's a little disingenuous for that man now to claim "careful supervision" in torture chambers.
And to characterize torture as "these safe and lawful techniques." Safe? When, by 2006, more than 100 individuals in American detention had been murdered by their captors? Lawful, when this very veto the Dear Leader is bandying about is an attempt to evade the law? But here's his reasoning: limiting the CIA to interrogation techniques allowed only by the Army field manual would be wrong because the field manual deals with soldiers. The CIA deals with terrorists. Just as Bush on March 8 officially placed the United States as a champion of torture, Bush on this day also placed the United States as a champion of separating the race between legitimate human beings and sub-human creatures-"hardened terrorists." The circular argument gives the appearance of perfect logic-if you're willing to accept the notion that some human beings are not quite human beings. And isn't that the notion once peddled in the United States about blacks-excuse me, about niggers? Isn't that the notion peddled about Indians, at least while there were enough of them around that a distinction mattered? Isn't that the kind of distinction some conservatives attempted to write into the Constitution with their prohibition of "oriental" immigrants at the turn of the last century?
Some things don't change. Once a bigoted nation, always a bigoted nation. But this goes beyond bigotry. Bush is projecting an interpretation of human beings that links up with the sort of distinctions Nazi and apartheid regimes were known for, when they, too, facilitated the torture and murder of "enemies" by dehumanizing them in the eyes of the public. This is no different. He may be speaking the language of Anglo-Saxon civilization. He may be doing so from the august rooms of the White House. What he's saying makes him no different in these regards than the tyrants of the 20 th century. His rhetoric is another chain-link to his actions: he dehumanizes in words in order to dehumanize in deeds.
Last month Michelle Obama was criticized for saying that finally, she can be proud of the United States, the implication being that she hadn't been proud of it before Barack Obama's hopeful run. She may want to rethink her newfound pride. There's nothing to be proud of when the president reduces this country to rank criminality while calling it, of all things, a "higher responsibility" that is "keeping America safe." No one should envy the next Americans to be taken prisoner by rogue nations and terrorists, now that we're no better than either.
Pierre Tristam is a News-Journal editorial writer. Reach him at ptristam@att.net or through his personal Web site at www.pierretristam.com .
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110 Comments so far
Show AllCan someone tell us what 1776 said? The comment is missing.
tumbleweed, when was this ever a "once great nation"? You need to pick up a copy of Howard Zinn's book, The People's History of the United States, 1492 to Present, and find out what this country has always been about. The Bush Administration has just served to highlight what has been taking place for many years. Just ask the Native Americans what they think of this "once great nation."
right on, elmysterio. if we can't save ourselves, maybe the rest of the world can do it for us, or at least provide major help for it.
So tell me, why is it that NOBODY here has jumped on this little tidbit? "It does not take away the CIA's right to detain anyone."
WHAT gives the CIA the right to detain anyone outside the borders of the US? Just because some fat-assed corrupt American politician says the CIA can detain people overseas, doesn't mean it's right or just. In fact, I'd argue that US Law is only applicable in the US. But you Americans seem to think it's ok to keep spilling your shit outside your borders. Really. It's NOT OK. Your CIA, DEA, FBI, etc... has NO legal jurisdiction outside your country, nor should it. It's time you Americans keep your shit to yourselves. Just because you're an arrogant, warlike nation, doesn't mean the rest of the world is like that. Stay home yankee!
thong-girl, I think in part, it's short memories. And partly that most people really don't pay close attention, and it was way back in 1994 that Bill signed NAFTA, which cost the Democrats control of Congress as most union voters stayed home for the midterms. The Republicans spent 8 years in full attack mode, which was abetted by the media who left no story ignored. That actually garnered voter sympathy, who perceived him as hamstrung. But it didn't stop him from shoveling in oodles of corporate money. He and Hillary are really what used to be called liberal Republicans. Socially liberal, and fiscally conservative. He did leave us with a surplus, but off the backs of the working poor. The rich got richer faster than ever under his leadership. But again, people don't pay close attention. And after 8 years of GWBush, anything would look good.
And yes, people are fooled, they don't look at what Clinton has done, they look at what she says. I, on the other hand, have looked at what Clinton and Obama have done in the past, and I like his history a whole lot better than hers. I'm not talking the past two years when they've both been running for President, I realize the obstacles the corporations create. Although their campaign behavior does point out their striking differences in how they would act as President, and I like his a lot better than hers.
Personally I can't understand why anyone would prefer Hillary, especially since their favorite argument is there's really "no difference" between them which to me looks like a blind spot and so far I've only heard specious and superficial arguments out of these people. Maybe they're closet racists. They don't seem to have a problem with her racist behavior, but no matter what she does, they don't seem to mind. I don't know what's going on with them.
I'm told her war backing, and even her voting against banning cluster bombs was to look "strong" on defense. Pitiful. I think she's too insecure to be authentic. But I sure don't want to see Bill back in the White House.
kathyodat
bush is a liar. end of discussion.
How is it that so many in the Democratic Party are willing to support Clinton given her consistent backing of Bush? Are these folks so easily fooled or is it that they just don't want Obama? I don't understand the arguments for her and I don't think it is about Obama, or his race, but what the hell makes these people so blind to what actually happened? As far as her explanation for her backing Bush on Iraq, she then backed him on Iran. Are all the Dems so indebted to the monied Israeli lobbies, or am I missing something?
MeAlsoToo, that was funny.
thong-girl, you don't need to rely on intuition. Just the fact that Hillary is willing to say McCain would be a better President than Obama shows you how far she's willing to go. She's the first candidate I've ever heard supporting an opposition candidate - and McCain no less! over a candidate in her own party. Obviously she doesn't care if she takes the Democratic party down the drain with her. Talk about a spoiler; if she can't have the nomination, she will try to defeat any Democrat and give it to the Republicans. How bad can that get? but you know, these Hillary supporters can see no wrong in her, even while she's promoting McCain for President. And does anyone think he wouldn't turn around and use that against her? Talk about foisted on your own petard. I know what she's counting on, that McCain is unelectable. What she's not considering is a convenient "event" that will have the American sheep running for protection, which McCain can play on. She sure knows how to create disastrous scenarios. Just imagine the disasters she could create as President with her kind of reasoning.
kathyodat
MEALSOTOO
loved the 'hillary-ous' cartoon...............
It should be vitally important that those who feel like Clinton's views are no different than Bush's views, as I feel, express that to the Democratic leadership and let them know you won't vote for her, if that is where you are. I see no difference between her and McCain, except he at least admits he is a scumbag, where, with her, you have to intuit that conclusion.
It's quite astonishing how the story of the " revolution " has got doctored over the years. Washington and Co. were given land by the British Crown and provided with slaves to make it viable. They were supposed to pay for the land from the profits but got their heads together and decided to renege on the deal knowing France would come to their aid.
Washington and Co. were criminals since they used force to prevent the rightful owners from occupying their land.
Like Israel, the USA having started out as a criminal organisation continues on its merry way maiming and killing. Iraq is just one of many outrages committed by the land of the free and until the schools start a proper education, and not this fairy story about the founding fathers it will continue.
limric, you're funny. That's expecting a little more from Obama than I can count on. Now, Ron Paul, maybe. I could see him doing that. Of course we won't get to find out.
kathyodat
andrewr, unlike Hillary, Obama voted to ban cluster bombs. So you think he would turn around as President and drop them on civilians? I don't, although Hillary would. He also signed the pledge repudiating unlimited Presidential power. Hillary didn't, I think she likes that idea.
I'm not saying Obama is my perfect dream candidate, but I do think he will try to make this a better world, and try to resolve our international problems with diplomacy before resorting to bombs. Unlike Hillary. I want to give Obama a chance. You know, fool me once... Well, he might, but Hillary wouldn't, I know exactly what to expect from her and I don't want it.
kathyodat
http://jokelibrary.net/yyPictures/m/2008b.html
But like Hilary Clinton Barack Obama will support israel with money and cluster bombs, allow them and Saudi Arabia to continue to torture innocent civilians with US backing and not condemn them. Anyone who thinks that Obama is any different is deluded. If you think it is merely realism to support torture then you still support torture; if you think the world view of US is going to change while it supports the double standard of torturing or allowing its allies to torture then you are dreaming and you will live the reaping of what Clinton, McCain or Obama sow.
I have from time to time had a nice daydream while sitting in my chair in the garden. It is:
"I Barack Obama do solemnly swear"..etc.etc.
Once sworn in he turns to G.W. & Cheney smiles and says "Thank you gentlemen. You are under arrest."
Then turns to the secret service; has them both cuffed, and hauled away. In front of the whole world !!
George Washington, in spite of the well known mistreatment and summary executions of captured continental soldiers, issued specific orders that captured Hessians and British soldiers be treated "with humanity," provided with adequate provisions, and not mistreated in any way. By holding his forces to a higher example, he predicted that many of the captured would become so "infused with love of liberty" that they would reject the army they had served and join the cause of freedom and of the revolution. Many did.
As far as what would happen to any soldier who disobeyed his orders, Washington wrote: "should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any of them… I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause." Any one who did not heed his orders would bring "shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country."
I wonder what Mr. Washington would do today if he got his hands on the likes of George W Bush and Dick Cheney?
BobK, If Hillary doesn't sign a pledge, but simply sends a letter "in support" it is not dishonest to point out that she didn't sign the pledge. She didn't. The others did. There is a distinction there. Her letter affirmed that torture is unAmerican and does not work anyway and that it should never be the policy of the US to torture. She also stated that "I believe that our strengths emanate from our values and our institutions of justice, as enshrined in our Constitution". In her letter she upheld habeas corpus and opposed warrantless wiretapping but made no reference to Presidential unchecked power, unless you choose to infer it from her reference to the Constitution. I would like to hear her explanation for why she prefers not to sign this pledge. McCain has also refused to sign the pledge. Ron Paul signed some similarly worded conservative pledge. Below is the pledge she refused to sign.
We are Americans, and in our America we do not torture, we do not imprison people without charge or legal remedy, we do not tap people's phones and emails without a court order, and above all we do not give any President unchecked power.
I pledge to fight to protect and defend the Constitution from assault by any President.
thong-girl, this President is reserving for himself to do whatever he thinks necessary to "protect us" and his Attorney General, who we are stuck with thanks to Democrats Schumer and Feinstein refuses to define torture, providing cover for him. And again thanks to the Democrats, we have a Supreme Court, of whom a majority appear to believe in the theory of "unitary executive" which is essentially placing the President above the law.
We now have three candidates running for President, of whom only one, Obama, has signed a pledge affirming that the President is not above the law and entitled to interpret the Constitution as he/she sees fit.
kathyodat
Those who support torture should at least be willing to experience it a couple of times, to see whether it works adequately. Rather think that, as an honest coward, I'd tell 'em whatever they wanted to know, as quick as I could, REGARDLESS of whether it was right or wrong.
And, historically -- that's the way it's worked. Because torture victims jabber, and you don't know if they're telling you the truth, so you torture them some more.
And, by the end, YOU. STILL. DON'T. KNOW...
Responding to these articles - or to any other "radical" blog - is not action. Take action. Call your representatives, write letters to the editor, do SOMETHING. I have been for years. It makes enemies - but it also helps others take action because they see it can be done.
Who are the polices of torture -- ahem, excuse me, "enhanced interrogation" -- really aimed against? Surely not the "terrorists" out there. "Enemies" of the United States government (both liberal and conservative forms) have long known about and been the victim of these "enhanced interrogation techniques." So making them official US policy really does little to discourage them from standing up for themselves.
But it does affect us.
And that's who these now-official policies are aimed against. Us. Washington is now brazenly announcing open season on anybody -- ANYBODY -- who dares question the official reality. The official fiction. Washington, didn't you know, now defines reality. As much was professed by a White House official a few years ago as he lectured a journalist "We tell you what's real and you go out and report on it. Then tomorrow we tell you some more about what's real and you will no doubt analyze and report on that too." And anybody who so much as THINKS about questioning the official reality is pronounced ex communicado. Witness Dan Rather.
But what about those who not only question but DENY the official reality. TO GITMO WITH THEM! And be quick about it. No habeas corpus. No trial by jury of your peers. Bye bye, baby. And in the near future it won't just be Gitmo. It will be FEMA camps. Now whether they will actually torture former-American citizens in those camps or not makes little difference. The mere fact that they have claimed the right to waterboard anybody they like -- or hate -- is enough to keep most of us off the streets once they finally do begin "surgical strikes" against Iran.
As for this nonsensical discussion over what constitutes "torture," it's all just distraction. It's just more sillyConValley(); Use the Net well while we still have a chance. Google is watching you. Check out "Et tu, Google?" on www.sillyConValley.net
It ain't censorship to give a troll the boot.
Try criticizing Bush at a Freeper type page... see if they're this tolerant.
If I missed someone's comment on this, forgive me, but wasn't torture already illegal? Why does this Congress insist on passing additional laws to prohibit acts already illegal, unless they wish to say that waterboarding done prior to the passage of this new bill is just fine? Even though Mukasey hasn't said he feels waterboarding is illegal, does that matter if the rest of the world knows this foul smelling rose by all its names?
The more wrong Bush and his gang are, the more despicable, illegal, immoral and mendacious they are, the more stubbornly they defend their actions. It's psychology 101. They are digging in and helping along their next candidate for President. Oh yes, the one who spent five years being mistreated in North Vietnam. They are whipping up the fear and jingoistic frenzy of their core supporters to go to the polls for McCain.
The idea is to establish a runaway economic incentive for torturing people: hundreds then thousands of employees, new companies, bureaucracies and fat paychecks that depend on torture. A system of torture, like the drug war, like the terror war, that cannot be legislated away because too many livelihoods depend on it.
willo, I think that the video tapes of torture were destroyed because some of the victims of torture really did reveal some truth about 9/11 - and incriminated Bush et al. in the process.
See you under the whale outside the w.s. market.
In the old days, the CIA just taught other countries how to torture their citizens (and sold them the equipment to do it with), but they had the delicacy not to use it on their own citizens. Ah, for the good old days.... Poor America.
m2935m: You're right, that's better.
Tumbleweed: welcome to the club
The author makes a good point about the formerly subhuman natures of Blacks, Indians and Orientals and the consequences they suffered for their mistake.
But the U.S. is afflicted by several contemporary less-than-human subclasses too, including, as we have been frequently reminded in broadcast public service messages: pot heads, - well, there are other groups, but pot heads are the most hated. They're destroying the country and will make a good test run for America's domestic torturers.
Other subhuman classes will follow when Americans see the good results of torturing pot heads. Welfare cheats (destroying the economy), atheists ( destroying church ), homosexuals (destroying the Americdan marriages), unwed mothers (destroying the American Family)...I bet that we'll even find time in the end to readdress Thomas Carlyle's nearly forgotten study, The Nigger Question.
We need a torture chamber in every police station. Police must be empowered to torture at least the most dangerous of the scum bags that they detain.
We need a bureaucracy to oversee torture. We need manuals, we need companies that manufacture fine steel and the instruments of torture. We need lobbyists and pressure groups to represent the thousands of good employees and their families that are supported by torture. We need a torture industry. For jobs, people, and for God.
Well of course torturing is not a good way to do things. I think in this case it is a smoke screen for the real criminals and a way to deflect attention from the crimes they did on 9/11. All the evidence I have seen indicates 9/11 was an inside job. You have to ask yourself, what good does it do torturing a bunch of people who didn't have anything to do with it. The only thing I can come up with is that it is a distraction.
Our nations forefather's must be rolling over in their graves about now! At what has happened to their great experiment! At the depths this once great nation has sunk to in a short 7 years! At the guile that is so blatantly on display by our leaders. At the destruction of the Constitution they all slaved over to perfect. As well as all the other crimes these people get away with daily. We have gone from being a well respected nation known for it's humanity and moral's. To a rogue nation that tortures under the guidance of this criminal. I haven't been proud to be an American in several years now. I never thought I would ever reach this point. Where I was ashamed to call myself an American!
@Donkey Hote March 9th, 2008 6:00 pm
That is most fascinating. Those lacking the "compassion gene" tend to succeed and reach high places, while those who have it are hampered by it. I will be sure to investigate this further. If it turns out to be true, then it would explain a lot.
I have known that politics acts like a filter that ensures that decent people cannot make it to the top. If you are too honest or decent, then you dont have what it takes to be a successful politician.
It became apparent to me in England when Tony Blair succeeded in replacing half the House of Lords with people who were elected at the same time as the rest of the parliament. The problem was, that the the House of Lords was obstructing some quite nasty bills. By tradition, members of the House of Lords were not elected, but they inherited their seats. By the laws of chance in the lottery of birth, half of the members of the House of Lords were decent people, and nastier laws, such as the nastier bits of the English version of the Patriot Act were not being passed. Tony had them replaced with politicians.
Not only does our political system act as a filter that prevents the decent from succeeding, but the corporate media and those who provide campaign funds, and special "deals" to politicians dictate to some extent the actions a politician must take in order to be successful.
In stark contrast to this, having politicians elected by a lottery or lotto would guarantee that our politicians would be a representative sample of our citizens. Having to do the bidding of those who provide campaign funds would be ended. The politicians would also be insulated, to some extent, from manipulation of politicians by the corporate media.
We watched the DVD "Rendition" the other night, a fictionalized account based loosely on Khaled el Masri's experience. I highly recommend it, along with the interview of Khaled el Masri that is included as an addendum.
Pierre T. - good article! It is indeed a shame that an article about "legalised" torture by the U.S. as the topic has to be written. Speaking as one who is not an American and does not live in America, I can't even begin to express my profound shock and disbelief at the actions taken and resulting justifications for those actions by the Bush Administration on behalf of the American people. Simply disgraceful.....
Stop focusing your ire at George W. Bush. He's only the figurehead of the evil idealologial movement called conservatism, which is sponcered, sustained, and spread by the Republican party. It's the Republican party and not George W. Bush that deserves our deepest distain.
USA Patriot act article 215 allows DHS and FBI agents to recruit citizens and allow such recruits to question your neighbors about YOU. No warrents. Then once they have your community believing a pack of lies about you, they come in your home, plant drugs, practice RED SQUAUD tactics and systematically try to discredit you using pshyological torture. 24/7 surveilence,noise campains, brighting tactics,
these are Americans practising tactical torture being paid for by your tax dollars.
Tens of thousands of Americans are being tortured as we speak, lives and familys are beig destroyed.
Why ? To build a robotic,unquestioning,spy network.
George Bush knows this, and his policys support and mandate this covert torture.
First they take the 4th amendment, then they will take the first amendment, who will hear your cries when they come to take your guns.
This message is for all the religious fanatics who believe in this new age form of neighborhood watch torture.
They will turn on you and your religious groups, they will have to, you will be a threat to them in the future and they know it.
These Americans who have been appointed with this spy network power are not patriots,and will be thier own demise, for they will eat each others young to maintain this power.
FRANK 1569
that's a very interesting figure you noted. just yesterday, it was reported on 'yahoo' that a 'probe finds traces of prescription drugs in the water supplies of at least 41 million americans.' maybe that's the culprit.....................
BeForKids,
The American Freedom Campaign is satisfied with Clinton's commitment to their Pledge and they put out a press release saying so. Your claim on this forum -- that Clinton "still hasn't signed a pledge with a group called the American Freedom Campaign" -- is dishonest and deliberately misleading.
There's also no evidence for your opinions about Clinton's "intentions" other than your own personal bias.
I can't wait for the new Nueremberg Trials for Bush and Co....then a long walk to a short rope for the lot of them.
CIVILIZED countries should start by barring ALL travel to and from the USA so the contamination does not spread.
Next, if any of these sick Neocon bastards dare show their faces outside the USA, they should be immediately arrested and tried for WAR CRIMES, alonf with anay politician who voted against the torture ban...they are all now accomplices to war crimes. Many Nazi and Japanese were hanged for less.
ALL citizens of the USA should hang their heads in SHAME...you country is now nothing more than another tinpot facist state. You are no better than Saddam's Iraq. Bin Laden has gotten his fondest wish....the USA as we all knew it has been destroyed, and replaced with the New Nazis
BeForKids, You say, " Regarding Israel, get real. The political reality is that any presidential candidate that doesn't support Israel is DOA. " In other words you say we have to support torture?? Your arguments about Saint Barack kind of fall flat on their face when you make such a big deal about Hilary Clinton supporting torture and then say it is fine for Barack Obama to support the Israeli military machine and their love of torture.
Get real? Real is the situation of people who live in Gaza and deal with torture every day thanks to American tax dollars. Either torture is wrong or it is not. If you are saying that Barack Obama does not have the leaadership to take a stand against the military machine (and tax vacuum)that is Israel then he shouldn't be president. The argument reminds me of those democrat hogs in the 1930s - 1950s who said they would love to do something about civil rights in the south but a democrat who stood on a civil rights ticket was DOA.
So you vote for torture. The rest of us will see Barack Obama for what he is - same old same old.
Did I miss something here? I've scrolled up and down this thread several times and can find no comments from anyone using the name 1776, or 1776Freedom1776. Did CD censor his comments like they have done with me on several occasions?
kernel and BobK, you're deceiving yourselves about Hillary Clinton's intentions. She could have signed the declaration against torture, particularly after coming out for it under certain circumstances. ALL the other Democratic candidates did. That would have made her stated opposition definitive. She chose not to, only endorsing the principle of opposition, leaving herself a trap door if she feels it's necessary to torture. Why can't you see what she's up to? You sound just like the Bush supporters, refusing to see what they don't want to face. There are so many clues to her character, and not good. Don't you want a president with character for a change? But go ahead, knock yourselves out.
kathyodat
It is no longer the White House it is the Dungeon.
The most appropriate symbol for America would be the Statue of Liberty with her head in a black hood, and a dollar sign held high in her right hand.
It's not an "insinuation" that Clinton supports torture.
It's her own words... her other votes validate the mindset as well... again
""I have said that those are very rare but if they occur there has to be some lawful authority for pursuing that," she responded. "Again, I think the President has to take responsibility. There has to be some check and balance, some reporting. I don't mind if it's reporting in a top secret context. But that shouldn't be the tail that wags the dog, that should be the exception to the rule."
Asked again about these methods, she said:
"In those instances where we have sufficient basis to believe that there is something imminent, yeah, but then we've got to have a check and balance."
This is nuanced BS... period.
braithwa842
"His former Harvard Business School professor recalls George W. Bush not just as a terrible student but as spoiled, loutish and a pathological liar."
I've always imagined him as a child who pulled the wings off flies, whether or not he truly did. Anyway his character (or lack of such)was quite clear during his tenure as governor of Texas, even to those who do not closely follow US politics.
You forgot the most appropriate label: Bush the War Criminal.
(Ptsss... by the way, Democrats are Bush-enablers. So I;ll not vote for either of the two evils)
Gosh, all this time I thought that I needed to vote for Osama to defeat Bush and his Neo-Cons. (Al Jazeera)
A Republican congressman has said that al-Qaeda would welcome the election of Barack Obama as president of the United States.
The comments in an Iowa newspaper from an interview with US Representative Steve King came as Obama won the caucus vote in Wyoming on Saturday, beating Hillary Clinton, the senator from New York and campaign rival.
"The radical Islamists, the al-Qaeda ... would be dancing in the streets in greater numbers than they did on September 11 because they would declare victory in this war on terror," King said in an interview with the Daily Reporter newspaper.
What a joke, Bush does not want to stop torture because as we speak, the DHS and FBI is training right wing religious do gooder organiztions in neighborhood watch gropus on gang stalking tactics. They are creating suspects using RED SQUAD stalking torture tactics.
Why ? To grow their nation wide spy network. And its working, read this article on Infragard, an FBI program for recruiting local community support.
http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2008/02/14/infragard-first-in-a-seri...
There is money for this program of abuse from the DHS.
What Bush wants is blanket protection from the damage this program has done to thousands of Americans put on watch and survielence lists who have been abused, tortured.
Thats what he is hiding.All these people involved have been sworn to secreacy, and if one of them whislte blows they will become victoms of this abuse.It is severe pshyological torture.
You can't have a nationwide spy network without suspects, so they lie and create suspects for the purpose of creating fear which allows them to recruit.
America Land of the Free?
America Land of Spys?
BobK__, Nice work on the research of the no-torture pledge. I believe that technically it is correct she did not sign it but gave a statement supporting it, which is certainly not saying she is for torture, as has been insinuated. That is probably not as serious as about 1000 signing statements by Bush on bills saying he will follow them if he pleases to.
It seems we have a little more to worry about than such nit-picking scraps of intentions as this. When our country is about to go down the drain, all some can do is drag certain people through the mud, as though that is doing a great service.
Bush's base is that 30% far right crowd, which is against any social program to help people in need. They are bigoted and mean spirited. I was just visiting a 'former' friend, a true blue supporter of Bush, and when I discussed issues like in this article, she responded that she still admired Bush and 'he is a wonderful Christian man'. No amount of discussion could alter this misguided perception.
If 70% of the population is against Bush's program and the direction he has lead us, why is it that our representatives in Congress consistently vote against the voices of their constituency? That is the crux of our problem, we do not have a representative government, not one at least that represents 'we the people'. Our Congress on both sides of the aisle listen to the lobbyists for special corporate interests, and are duly rewarded. It is this matter that needs immediate attention. We must stop this pay off. What good is demonstrating in the streets if there is no social/moral awareness/conscience in the halls of our government? In the streets you will be putting your life on the line facing private mercenaries, new crowd control instruments of death, detention camps, and so forth. I can guarantee that no demonstrators will get within a mile of the Democratic Convention to protest, and there will be no media coverage except the likes of Amy Goodman, Bill Moyers, maybe Keith O. I was in the streets of Chicago in 1968, and there is no comparison to the potential harm facing demonstrators today, along with the fact that the MSM will not cover it, and the courts will not be lenient.
Our best approach is to push hard and keep the pressure on for ridding our government of special interest monies.
BobK, you should read that a little more carefully. Clinton endorsed the principles, but DID NOT sign the pledge. She's a lawyer. She doesn't close a door behind herself unless she wants it shut. The link you sent me to referenced stories from The Hill and ABC News and both said she only endorsed the principles and only because her campaign was getting heat for holding back. I'm not suggesting that, like Bush, she enjoys torture, I think for her it's a political decision. Of course, who knows what is in another person's mind? As Clarence Darrow said "If you love the idea of killing someone you're for the death penalty; if you hate the idea of killing someone, you're against it".
kathyodat
Thanks Donkey, I read it.
On the other hand, since they are a little crazy, their first order of business might well be attacking to restore the union. For our own good, you know?
It will never end. There will always be that 30% of people who want a right wing lunatic for president. Would we not be better off splitting the country so we can leave most of these in their own lunatic country? Would that not do the world a favor?
Torture
Of all those who expressed anything on voting for this abomination none even considered that it is against the law and humanity? Mind boggling. Wrote this before, the truth is still there. Tony
T: Truth gone; Terror increased; tarnished, our reputation and this is not strong enough; Tergiversators, all who want to go along with this.
O: Oath to Constitution, where in torture? Obliterate, our laws and statutes: Obscenity, there are stronger words for torture but this will do: Obsequious, this will do for mccain, warner and graham and for all who go along.
R: Respect, we can forget about this one from the rest of the world: Rabid, think we might check these "folks"?: Rapacious, what these folks are with torture as a signature: Responsibility, They want to pass a law so they don't have any: Road, to perdition
T: Testicles, what they don't have: Topsy-turvy, the values and laws that made this country worthy of acclamation: Totalitarianism, where torture leads: Treasury, gone: Tears, mine: Two hundred & thirty years, to here, for this?: Thimble, B,C, C, brain, conscience, capacity.
U: Un Godly, Is anybody willing to go to the pearly gates and tell St. Pete this is what you did and condoned?: Unlawful, I don't care how many laws they try to pass: Ugly, by any standard: Umbrage, what I take to the whole subject: Undemocratic, this goes forward, this is not a democracy any more, I don't care what kind of mask they put on it: United we stand, for what, this?: U.S of A, the slope will get steeper.
R: Refracted, our rays of light, re, laws to the dark side: Refuge, the lady with the torch is wishing she could hide: Render, what a policy for a free peoples: Reviled, us, if this goes ahead: Rights, in the toilet, they will come after us.
E: Excrement, there is no S but shit by any other name, etc: Empire, what men aspire to and nations expire from: Execrate, how they feel about "we the people": Elude, shhh, people don't have to know, national security: Effluvium, what comes forth from their mouth: Expletive, so many I could use for this policy: Extirpate, what I hope we will do with this policy and it's authors.
So many words , not enough heart to put more. Tony
Love and peace to all, Tony 9/24/06
BeForKids,
I think you offer a very biased account of the various candidate's views on torture. I checked with the group you mentioned, the American Freedom Campaign. Their website has the following press releases which indicate that Richardson, Dodd, Kucinich and Gravel signed the pledge on October 1, 2007, Obama signed on October 3, 2007, and Clinton signed on October 4, 2007.
Your claim that Clinton is "the only Democrat" not on board with this is false.
Senator Clinton Signs American Freedom Pledge in Support of the Constitution
AFC Press Release, 10/4/2007
Senator Obama Signs American Freedom Pledge in Support of the Constitution
AFC Press Release, 10/3/2007
Richardson, Dodd, Kucinich, Gravel Sign American Freedom Pledge
AFC Press Release, 10/1/2007
http://www.americanfreedomcampaign.org///index.php?option=com_content&ta...
Clinton is anti-torture in the same way Bush is.
"I have said that those are very rare but if they occur there has to be some lawful authority for pursuing that," she responded. "Again, I think the President has to take responsibility. There has to be some check and balance, some reporting. I don't mind if it's reporting in a top secret context. But that shouldn't be the tail that wags the dog, that should be the exception to the rule."
Asked again about these methods, she said:
"In those instances where we have sufficient basis to believe that there is something imminent, yeah, but then we've got to have a check and balance."
24 hours... get it?
CHECKS AND BALANCES?
The guy standing on the box with electrodes attached to his private parts must be the BALANCE, because CLINTON damn sure got the CHECK.
"Once a bigoted nation, always a bigoted nation."
Pierre Tristam couldn't just leave it with justified criticism of Bush. He just had to jump over into the hate America camp of his idols Michelle and Barack Obama.
This is the "bigoted nation" that gave Michelle Obama full scholarships to Princeton and Harvard and paid her $300,000 per year in salary and fees from corporate boards.
Not good enough for Tristam and Michelle Obama?
I wish both those resentful twits would find a different country to live in, and I wish Common Dreams would stop publishing Tristam's garbage essays that discredit legitimate criticism of Bush.
Is it really a good idea to identify criticism of Bush with hating America?
Not unless you're trying to elect John McCain!
The only way you can deal with people like W is to be ruthless to them. With the Republicans you especially have to me cold, calculating, and brutal. If you are the same way with the Democrats, it would not hurt. Clearly they do not give a s##t about us, so why should we care about them? Ignore them. They are irrelevant and treat them as such.
Neitzsche,
Please take a look at the second link in the piece that preceeds yours- It mwii either give you some piece or anger you---or perhaps, both. Contrary to popular belief, most people are kind--- but some special ones create hell for all the others.Peace
Hi frank. The unbelievable poverty of most human souls, the inhuman dearth of noble motives, The incredible capacity of humanity to be indifferent to suffering, even when a lot of suffering by others yields even a little comfort for self---it's part of the human condition.
The green lawns, swimming pools, and shopping sprees for Israelis who know their Palestinian brothers get a few hours of water per week and struggle to survive is no different from South Africa during apartheid or the US during Jim Crow, or even my buying a high quality tee shirt for three dollars.
"It's the poor who pay for everything." And nobody is willing to sacrifice even a little of their own comfort for change. I recently paid eight dollars for a heavy coat. I knew the human cost that had to be born by somebody I probably would never meet. I did it anyway. But I never put on that coat without thinking about it.
Slavery is dehumanizing to the slave and the master. It always will be as long as people like me believe that the present system is in their own best interest---or at least act as if they do.
"Make no mistake: no one is attracted so strongly by anything as by what he considers his own good"---Epictetus
Somebody should lead us little children out of this darkness. "Give us peace".
A bit of time spent at the folowing link will explain a lot about what we see in this country. http://ponerology.com/ We have a confluence of influence of some who have no concern for the welfare of this country(or perhaps any other), the influence of the MIC, and the opportunism of of psychopaths. All together, the perfect storm for mass destruction on a world scale. If you visit the site given above, click on any or all of the subjects in the column at the left side of the page. There is a lot here, but very worthwhile reading.
A basic overview of the subject of psychopathy is found at http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm Without information in this piece, it is impossible to comprehend what has happened in this country. With it---- all pretty well falls into place.
What did you all expect from a kid who liked to blow up frogs for fun?
Bring back the guillotine. Please? I'm thinking it would be a great way to start paying down on the national debt. You could sell tickets!
Maybe Bush should have experienced waterboarding to see if it was torture or not before making it sound like he was doing us all a favor.
This man has no conscience whatsoever. How he was elected the second time based on his miserable performance is beyond me.
Dear Pierre Tristam,
I was delighted to read your editorial speaking to one of the "killers" that occupies the White House. I find it difficult to put the name in my mouth of this fool I so loathe into speech by giving it a name. I have over this time, that he has occupied the highest position in the land, thought deeply about the issues that surround the elevation of this sub-human to lead this country.
The question is, as it always becomes, at least for some people here in this country, has to do with the dynamic of the American people themselves. What has become of the mentality of Americans that borders nihilism, that reflects its religious belief system that would put this man, the self appointed messenger of God, to lead a so-called law abiding nation that calls itself the bastion of Democracy?
The USA is in shambles of its place as a nation of laws but the question of laws themselves could not be better understood when under scrutiny, from the time the Catholic Church rose to power with Constantine, laws represented the religious ruling class. All ancient books were burned as they were in Germany during Kristal Nacht. All those in opposition to the law, for example the ancient philosophers, the Helenes, found there works burned and those philosophers who opposed the church were burned with them.
From the year 350,AD and before as the Church rose to power it destroyed all science, great thinking and knowledge forcing it underground. All questioning of of the existing order was exterminated ignorance was elevated to extreme power and those who were most venerated were the evil and the ignorant. This is a remarkable parallel to the experience of the present with the Bush/ Cheney regime of I absolute power. All science is questioned and blocked like Stem Cell research,and the science of climate change and global warming obfuscated put on hold these critical eight years of the fools administration all programs such as "no child left behind", the clean air act" is euphemistic to actually mean their polar opposite. So many programs with this regime are based in fear and dedicated to hate torture, anti life, and the end to global rational human dialogue.
One of the most horrible example of this was seen recently where in a meeting of Lawyers a show of hands were asked for as to which candidate was most acceptable for the presidency. Eighty percent of thos present voted for McCaine with the majority of the reamining largely for Clinton and a smattering for Obama. We see here that the makers of the law vote for continued oppression, repression, status quo and death. They abdicate and distort human values of health, well being, fairness, truth and peacefulness in support of evil.
The American people put the present regime in power and reelected them to office with chicanery, illegal methods, voter fraud, and religious persuasion that were employed. Nothing too much has changed since Constantine. George Bush will not be impeached because the Congress that is responsible for truth and law in the USA is a sham. The politics of hope go wanting as the lies and hatred of the power hungry, entrenched politicians of the past are challenged by a black man who speaks for truth decency and change.
We see clearly that the values of the American people could not be better open to scrutiny in the candidates running for president. We know why the USA has laid waste a land that did not harbor terrorists, tortures all those who it suspects and why the world is revolted by a people that espouse the rule of law.
Mr. Tristan, no wonder why things are as they are and will continue in the USA. At least half of Amererica is reflected by the values of W. It is necessary of there to be a change in Congress as well as the presidency if a new USA is to emerge. The young people know this hence the support for Obama. If america is to be accepted in the world, if Americans are to be respected once again than a change in the values of Americans are necessary .
For this savage, cretin president to still be in the White House has taken an enormous amount of winking-and-blinking cooperation or just plain going along for one's own self-interests by the majority of those who represent The People of the United States.
As many have said on this Board already, why aren't we in the streets? Well, with what's just around the corner with the economic mess that the current administration and the majority of the go-alongs in both Houses of Congress have been cultivating right along, a good number of us may find ourselves in the streets whether we like it or not ... and likely hungry.
More of the same, if we have an election at all, seems ahead.
MUST SEE-MUST UNDERSTAND! UNCOUNTED: THE NEW MATH OF AMERICAN ELECTIONS
The 2008 election is already decided.
Take a look - http://www.uncountedthemovie.com/
AND ... so much for Laissez Faire Capitalism, eh? AYN RAND? ATLAS has SHRUGGED big time, and the world itself is falling, falling, falling into a deep, dark black hole.
laissez faire: an economic doctrine that opposes government regulation of or interference in matters of commerce. Well, we sure have that.
Evidently, however, the definition of laissez faire has been broadened to ANYTHING GOES! within the Democratic form of government in the U.S., including providing tacit license to leaders totally out of control and totally impervious to other peoples' pain and suffering, and who, in fact, seem to get off on causing those conditions. OH, TORTURE ... OH, BOY!!!!!!
That's called INSANITY folks. Why aren't we in the streets ... along with every member of Congress and the candidates for the presidency?
Think about it.
Bush has finally managed to smear the line between his own actions and those of the late Saddam Hussein. I wish someone would put together a numerical listing of (a) number of innocent persons killed, (b) persons tortured through either indirect or direct authorization by each of these psychopaths. Nevermind the number of troops killed. Even without the numbers, their behavior is qualitatively the same. So does not Bush deserve the same noose that found Hussein?
NOTHING stopped Vietnam till the kids put their bodies literally in the doorways of business. Think this will be any different? It will be different---it will be longer, harder, bloodier, and more costly every way. That's how denial works. As the I Ching says, if you try to solve a problem without going to the root of it, you only create a bigger and worse mess. http://ancientgreece-earlyamerica.com
We all elected the ones we asked to stop the the illegal chicaneries of this administration.
We did not hold them to their rhetoric.
Ergo, we really are to blame.
How does it feel to be judge, jury and executioner?
Now, frank, that's like saying all the Clinton supporters favor cluster bombs because she does. Although it's true a majority of Republicans do support torture, but not all do. does that go for Hillary Democrats and landmines and cluster bombs as well?
kathyodat
When Armanijhad was interviewed during his visit, after being told that he was an evil dictator, was asked to say some good things about GW Bush. Armanjhad struggled with this one, but then came up with something like "Perhaps he shows kindness or wisdom in his home life". I truly doubt it. I would have real trouble trying to answer the question myself.
braithwa, I remember that story. It was totally ignored at the time, which was too bad, because it showed how thoroughly Bush despised people not of the elite class. His statements on the subject, if publicized, would have killed his candidacy. Of course, that's why the media ignored it. If his opponent had ever said those things, it would have made banner headlines. But that's what you get when the corporations own the media. Thank you Bill. By the way, isn't Hillary claiming that she was essentially a copresident with Bill? Oh, I forgot, only about the good stuff. She was opposed to all the bad stuff, even if she was keeping her mouth shut. Except there's a little problem with NAFTA, she spent too much time forgetting to keep her mouth shut, and forgetting she really wasn't against it either. What a liar. I don't understand why so many people are so blind about her. It's like watching George Bush all over again, fooling the voters.
kathyodat
Humiliating. It is humiliating to have that vulgar little sadist in the White House, the Soiled House. What a painful wound our country has inflicted on itself. We are cursed.
USA/Gallop: "Among people who identify themselves as Republican or leaning Republican, Bush's approval rating is 76%."
That's approximately 41 MILLION fellow Americans who are pro-torture, (not to mention pro-BushFascism in all it's many forms.)
41 Million MiniBush's. How f**king scary is that!!!
His former Harvard Business School professor recalls George W. Bush not just as a terrible student but as spoiled, loutish and a pathological liar.
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/09/16/tsurumi
BobK, you're right. At present, she's against it. Below is an excerpt of a NY Daily News story of her flipflopping on this and other issues. Although she "changed" her mind in April she saw no reason to mention it until after the below noted poll came out. Of course she could change her mind again if it became convenient, since convenience seems to be her guiding light.
"Clinton (D-N.Y.) came out against all torture - "period" - in Wednesday's Democratic debate after previously telling the Daily News last October it would be okay to torture a terrorist to foil "something imminent."
Clinton's transformation on torture now aligns her perfectly with the voters she's trying to woo. A Zogby International poll this month found 64% of Americans oppose the interrogation tactic - and an earlier ABC poll showed more than 70% of Democrats are against it.
Clinton aides said she changed her mind after meeting in April with a group of retired three- and four-star generals.
But her epiphany appears to be incomplete. Clinton still hasn't signed a pledge with a group called the American Freedom Campaign that requested presidential candidates oppose all torture."
andrewr, Obama has said he is unequivocally opposed to torture and completely supports the Geneva Conventions. He has never swerved from that position, unlike Hillary who is like a drunk driver on positions. Clinton is also the only Democratic candidate who has refused to sign the American Freedom pledge against torture, although she did write a letter in support. But that's not a commitment. She refuses to commit. Regarding Israel, get real. The political reality is that any presidential candidate that doesn't support Israel is DOA. Hopefully as president, he could produce some behavior changes there on both sides.
kathyodat
There's a new flag flying over the White House that I think you guys should know about.
http://www.americanpirate.com/index_003.html
Actually, I probably just didn't notice it until now...
Oh well.
Baby Bush has made this country morally bankrupt as well. BinLadin has won. Can't we please go home now?
TJ -- Yes, abundantly so it IS "on all of us, every last one."
Which is a great place for positive change to start from.
Namaste
… … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … & … ML King … … Inspiration … … … … …
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« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — MLK
Pierre Tristam, you are wrong:
Now that torture has become the official policy of the United States (it has long been practiced by the CIA, US military and in many prisons and jails in the US), WE ARE ALL COMPLICIT.
This presidential act has been legally executed and acquiesced to by the United States Congress which was elected by the citizens of the United States in (relatively) free, if not fair, elections.
Furthermore, the citizens of the United States have freely chosen to not exercise our legal rights to take to the streets and protest this vile, inhumane (and very human) violation of: US law, the US Consitution and multiple international laws, many religious traditions and basic human decency.
We have yawned away our very souls and the right to be called human beings. As a peo