The New Phase for Obama, Clinton and the Rest of Us
Obama still leads in the race for the nomination but has been damaged on core issues of character and message. Clinton still can win but only by alienating many voters the Democrats need. The peace and justice movement should be cheered by the attention to Iraq and NAFTA, and keep on pressing the candidates.Obama must get tougher without contradicting the high standards he is setting for himself. There are two lines he can pursue:
His campaign can demand immediate disclosure of the Clinton tax returns, White House and Library documents that will show where Hillary Clinton's $5 million donation came from, and whether Bill Clinton has used his influence in cases like the uranium contract with Kazakhstan for a Clinton donor who gave at least $31 million to the ex-president's charitable foundation [NYT, Jan. 31, 2008]. It is imperative for Obama to parry the Clintons on these issues while the ugly Chicago trial of Obama supporter Tony Rezko is unfolding in Chicago.
Second, those same White House records will reveal whether Clinton has lied about having lobbied internally against NAFTA as First Lady. Only biographer Carl Bernstein claims she did, but he may be referring to her concerns about the timing of the NAFTA initiative, not NAFTA itself. Obama needs to parry on this issue to offset the story out of Canada that his representative gave secret assurances to Ottawa about Obama's NAFTA proposal.
Finally, in terms of policy, it is becoming increasingly questionable whether Obama can succeed at his lofty visionary level without sharpening a principled policy difference with Clinton that really matters to voters. It is too late to dream up a new issue. The only policy difference favoring Obama that goes straight to the issue of "experience" is Iraq. It no longer is enough that Obama opposed the war five years ago, especially if it appears that there are no differences between the candidates now. For whatever reason, Obama has allowed Clinton to appear to take an identical stand on the war. Is that true? Or is it time for Obama to issue a further clarification of his position separating him from both Clinton and McCain? The peace movement and media can play a role here.
The key questions are these:
Does Clinton propose a timetable for withdrawing combat troops, like Obama does?
Does either Democratic candidate plan to withdraw all troops, or leave tens of thousands of Americans behind fighting a counterinsurgency war like Afghanistan today or Central America in the 1970s?
Are these questions too complicated for the media and the candidates to ask themselves? Or is it true once again that the issues which are hidden in campaigns turn out to be the most important in the end?
The peace movement can help force the issue, especially in Pennsylvania, if it is galvanized. Iraq, it is said, is the pivotal issue in the Philadelphia suburbs. The message from the peace movement delivered on blogs, leaflets and in rallies could be something like this:
We oppose Sen. McCain because he wants to continue President Bush's war in Iraq for years ahead at a cost of X lives and X dollars to the people of Pennsylvania and this country. But we have an urgent question for the Democratic candidates: which of you really will end the Iraq war, on what deadline, and not leave behind tens of thousands of US counter-terrorism units and advisers in a bloody counterinsurgency quagmire like Afghanistan today or Central America in the 1970s?
Assuming Obama says nothing new, which is likely at this point, the way is open for Clinton, believe it or not, to become the preferred anti-war candidate. All she needs to do is listen to John Podesta, the former White House chief of staff for her husband, who strongly favors the withdrawal of all American troops in one year. Podesta argues that leaving thousands of troops behind would sink them further in a quagmire. Or she could listen to her husband's former CIA director, John Deutch, who publicly says the US should broker a deal with Iran and get out of Iraq. She could seize on Obama's apparent policy of planning to continue contracts with Blackwater security forces.
Or Obama could stop relying on his five-year old speech and say the time has come to clarify who really wants to leave Iraq. In this scenario, he would say that Clinton has avoided saying whether she would set an actual deadline to withdraw all combat troops, whether troops will be gone by 2013, or whether she would leave tens of thousands of American troops still in Iraq after two terms of her presidency. The evidence is clear that she plans to keep behind trainers, advisers, counter-terrorism units and sufficient forces to "deter Iran."
The math is simple, starting with the Baker-Hamilton assumption of 10-20,000 American troops left behind after combat units withdraw. For 15,000 adviser/trainers there would be a back-up force three times that number, for a total of 60,000. If 50,000 private contractors also remained, the total would run to 110,000 while the current combat brigades were being withdrawn. This could be the greatest false promise since Richard Nixon's secret plan for peace in 1972, which was followed by his carpet bombing of Hanoi with B-52s.
For further on this false promise, see "Many Troops Would Stay in Iraq If a Democrat Wins", Wall Street Journal, Feb. 29, 2008, and "Peace, Or Counterinsurgency Without End", Tom Hayden, SF Chronicle, Jan. 24, 2008.
So what is a sensible alternative to this nightmare scenario? Any serious alternative would begin with the assertion that counterinsurgency in Iraq can't turn around a war that 160,000 combat troops have failed to win. The US units will be caught in a sectarian crossfire. Only a political/diplomatic settlement can contain the damage caused by the Bush policies, and a diplomatic offensive will have to include a pledge that American troops will withdraw before the neighboring countries will become engaged in the issues of refugees, reconciliation and reconstruction.
Beyond Iraq, it is crucial that the US not fall into the Bush-McCain-Neo-conservative scenario, stated by Bush in 2005, of a new Cold War against "Islamo-fascism." Not that American military power shouldn't be available for deterrent purposes against anyone who has attacked this country. But military approaches in the absence of a primary emphasis on diplomacy and political/economic/energy solutions will only sink the next generation in permanent, bloody, costly, and destabilizing quagmires without an exit strategy in sight. It will be like burning down haystacks in search of needles. It is exactly the US policy that Osama Bin Ladin hopes for. [see Marching Toward Hell, by Michael Scheuer, the man who tracked Bin Ladin and carried out renditions for the CIA]
This scenario, if pursued by any of the candidates, will also bury the possibilities of funding universal health care or alternatives to our oil dependency for the next generation, just as Lyndon Johnson's delusional promise of "guns and butter" destabilized the American economy and made us vulnerable to oil boycotts in the wake of Vietnam.
It would create a worsening national security crisis by further inflaming the Muslim world, isolating the US from its allies, and creating the pretexts for multiplying insurgencies, including the possibility of another 9/11-style attack.
Anyone with the brain of a plant can see the US heading right into these traps and quagmires. Read Barbara Tuchman's March of Folly and it will become clear that only a stunning jolt might force a reversal of course. That "jolt", hopefully, will come from a popular and unavoidable demand for peace rather than another military fiasco.
Obama, if he truly aspires to audacity, now is the time to point out that this is the disastrous and predictable future that will result from the policies proposed by those who claim to have superior "experience" and "expertise" in foreign policy. For precedent, he could stand in Springfield, Illinois, and remind the nation that it was another political novice from Illinois, young Abraham Lincoln, who opposed the Mexican-American war and went on to become quite a commander-in-chief.
Tom Hayden is the author of Ending the War in Iraq and Writing for a Democratic Society, The Tom Hayden Reader.
Copyright © 2008 HuffingtonPost.com, Inc.
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187 Comments so far
Show AllYeah ~Navaroo~, ain't that "Kerry buddy" some pitiful, lame excuse? That's called "political double-speak", or more commonly termed,__ "bull shit". Obama is the best at that I have ever seen or heard. He is really great there. Look at all of the decent and intelligent progressives who have snuffed it up.
Folks-
If you agree with the logic that superdelegates should not overrule the will of the voters, you should think about taking a few minutes to send a letter like the sample one below. It has the potential to be a very powerful act of mass nonviolent resistance.
***
You may contact your Democratic senators and representatives at:
http://www.senate.gov
http://www.house.gov
Dear Senator XXX,
I am a registered Democrat and I've voted in every election since 1988. Should Senator Obama lead in pledged delegates and popular vote at the time of the convention and the superdelegates do not follow, I will stay home in November. No Democrat in any race will get my vote, and I will strongly urge other Democrats to stay home as well.
Please share this with your fellow superdelegates.
Thank you,
XXX
KEM PATRICK writes:
"Later [Obama] said more than once, that if he HAD been a US Senator, he probably would have voted yes also, because he supported Senator Kerry and would not have wanted to embarrass John Kerry."
-----
GOSH, no! Wouldn't want to EMBARRASS the shameless Kerry -- no matter what it costs, or how many OTHER people wind up dead, maimed or crazy.
Obama and Joe Biden, pick a pair. __ Check it out.
You do make me happy though ~River~. Your incredibly funny posts may give me another ten years.
Hey "logic man", if Obama supports fundng the troops in Iraq, he's supporting the occupation.
Glad to know almost all men are in the top 1%, how may girls are up there? ___ In your humble estimation of course?
Isn't Obama a member of the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee? If so, why didn't he push for televised hearings like the ones Fulbright held during the Vietnam War in 1966 held in 2007, at which grassroots U.S. anti-war activists who want immediate U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan and Iraq and an end to funding of the Department of Defense would be allowed to testify, for instance? Relying on Democratic Party politicians to bring U.S. troops now, instead of on day-to-day mass street, campus and tv studio anti-war non-violent street protest, is a politically ineffectual approach.
Here is how the 2002 vote n prop 114 actually happened. Bush had been jumping up and down for a year telling everyone who would listen, that Saddam had WMDs, Saddam was in cahoots with Osama bin Laden and had purchased uranium from Africa and was going to build atomic bombs and kill all of us. The UN inspection teams and 18+ intelligence agencies, including our CIA, said all of that Bush talk was nonsense and wrote that in their 2002 top secret NIE report.
In Sept of 2002 the director of the CIA, George Tenent, briefed Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld on the T/S NIE report. Bush didn't like it and told Tenent to alter the report, to say that indeed Saddam did have WMDs and had purchased uranium from Africa. Tenent obeyed, he was then replaced as the CIA director and awarded the Medal Of Freedom. Colin Powell, who had warned Bush several times that he'd better not attack Iraq, then read the altered NIE report to Congress and on national TV. Wow, according to the report, Bush had been right all along. (Far right.) Most of the Americans believed Bush, and 77 senators voted yes on prop 114, which authorized Bush to use military force against Iraq (if absolutly necessary.) Not those exact words, but that very clear meaning. The Senate didn't vote to hire more UN inspectors, the UN inspectors were already inspecting in Iraq and they would be alowed to finish their inspections. Nothing really to worry about as to invading Iraq, as long as Saddam cooperated with them and nothing was found.
Meanwhile, Saddam was finally allowing the UN inspection teams to inspect anyplace in Iraq they desired, searching for evidence of WMDs or uranium and some secret plant where atomic bombs could be made. So far they had discovered absolutely nothing and had learned that Saddam had destroyed all of the poisonous gas and other WMDs in 2001. So 77 senators voted yes on 114 and they knew the inspection teams would be allowed to continue inspecting and actually there was no reason for Bush to use military force against Iraq. In addition, Bush told the senators in person, that he would not use military force against Iraq as long as Saddam continued to cooperate with the UN inspection teams.
Butttttttt, Bush lied to the Senators. As soon as they voted, he had the authorization from Congress to invade Iraq and he forced the UN teams out of Iraq and invaded. Did congress err? Indeed they did, they should have been more cautious in believing Bush and Cheney. Did they actualy start the unjust and illegal war? NO, they didn't. They voted to give Bush the authority to use military force against Iraq if it was necessary. Bush started the damn war. It never was necessary. But now a lot of people are saying Hillary started the Iraqi war, it's all her fault. Really?
And Obama? He spoke out against the war in 2002. He was not a US Senator then. Later he said more than once, that if he HAD been a US Senator, he probably would have voted yes also, because he supported Senator Kerry and would not have wanted to embarrass John Kerry. Obama also has said many times, he would not have voted yes and has also said he isn't sure of how he would have voted. But every vote since to continue the occupation of Iraq Obama has votes yes.
Those yes votes do not support our troops, if the Senate would stop funding the war, the troops would be pulled out of Iraq. Obama supports Bush all the way, including Bush's stands on Iran. ~Dougwagner~ does not want me to write this and whenever I do, he attacks me for telling the truth and says I'm a liar and tells people I'm lying about everything I've ever said about anythnig here at Common Dreams. He say's I'm attempting to re-write history etc. Wagner supports Obama, and I have no problem with that. I think Obama is a fine person. I just don't want to see him in the White House, because I checked his voting record and he's not progressive, in fact, he's half as progressive as that monster Hillary. So if she's a monster, what is Obama?
"its outrageous to vote for ANYONE that voted YES for this war which was also voting yes to the whole world that we are a fraud on democracy.. its best to vote for a dog catcher than ANY of these YES voters.."
riverman you are absolutely correct. the 2002 vote is inexcusable and an automatic disqualifier, in my mind, for both clinton and mccain.
thank you for your input....
Most Europeans are not familiar with Obama's votes SINCE he has been a US Senator ~Rivernut~. Most Americans are not familiiar either. He gives his awssome speeches, he sounds like a true statesman and the flock follows the leader. He states he opposed the war in 2002, 2003 thru 2008 and he's a damn liar. CHECK HIS VOTING RECORD. He also supports Bush's objecitves concerning Iran. He is a smooth talking charlaton. Check his votes, they tell the true story.
Well yippee, there are ten new articles here today and most everyone will be busy blogging comments on other IMPORTANT issues. This will give Riverman and Dougwagner free rein to post more nonsense here, or perhaps Dougie will slink back to his inner sanctum and sharpen his claws and Riverdude can go back to banging his head on the floor, while waiting for another bullshit Obama article to post.
Shame on you, Tom Hayden. Shame! What about all this? -- http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/mar2008/dems-m10.shtml
Right on, Buckoo, the whole old system is shameless --- particularly Clinton.
It is amazing how little MSM coverage there has been of Hillary Clinton's four (4) deceitful, back-stabbing attacks on the leading Democrat candidate (Obama) last week.
As Maureen Dowd said of Clinton's destructive trashing of the leading Democrat [which still goes unreported by the NY Times / Clinton machine], "What could be more shameless than suggesting to Democrats that John McCain would make a better commander in chief than Obama?"
Several of the Sunday shows re-ran the video of Hillary earlier this week, saying that Obama is less qualified than McCain to be Commander in Chief ---- and take those 3AM crisis phone calls.
There is no way to spin this --- Hillary has said that the leading candidate of her party is not qualified to be the Commander in Chief.
Such a statement is beyond the pale (although I can think of many other descriptions, such as 'pond scum').
I just finished reading Susan Faludi's fabulous new book, "The Terror Dream: Fear and Fantasy in post 9/11 America"
Hillary should read it. She would then realize how much harm she has done to her party.
Not only has she emasculated Obama, but in her selfish and totally misplaced attempt to 'go negative' on him as an incompetent 'protector' she has likely handed McCain an insurmountable psychological edge over any Democrat ---- in that a contest based on macho toughness, applies at a deep sub-conscious level, an advantage to just the sort of tightly wound, vicious, vengeance / protector image that exactly matches the image of McCain that most Americans hold.
Hillary may not only have handed McCain an edge over Obama, but also herself.
Talk about 'going negative'?
Clinton is emasculating and destroying the leading Democratic candidate.
And for what?
Imagine if Clinton were to become president now, and dealing with foreign leaders.
Won't it be helpful for the US to have every foreign leader thinking, "Oh, yea, I'm going to trust this bitch who stuck a knife in the back of her own party's leading candidate, and only won, by saying that he would not be as capable a commander in chief as the Republican opponent"?
How could most foreign leaders ever trust someone that low?
One thing for sure. The American People are a bit wiser after eight years of Lies Deception Murder in Iraq, Voter Disenfranchisement(long word HUH),Talking Heads Journalist with Corporate cue cards as they read,{most of their NEWS is off the Associated Press) no originality: stupid looking Bush, slick willie cheney and the old puppet crowd.
Folks are ready for Fresh Air in America.
These last eight years have been unbearably stuffy. Gas prices from $.99 cents to $ 3.35 for Regular, the Dollar valued at obout $.001 one cent, a mild Recession, lost of jobs, while Corporate CEOs receive unheard of bonuses, Oil Companies earn uncountable profits, medical care skyrockets, Highways and Brideges collapse,
It's time to let those New Generation,Google,Microsoft, MySpace,American Express Fresh Young Idealistic Minds solve the problems that these Old Crooks have created in this Nation and Afar.
Barak Obama is of this Fresh New Generation and all the Old Buzzards must stack the deck, move the goal post, pay the dealer,taint the media,hack the voting machines intentionally,smell up the place to avoid an honest Vote in America.
INTEGRITY is a word that has no meaning in America anymore. Sell Your Soul For The Victory is politically correct these days. Hell, you can even purchase the Preacher.
Our children would probably be better of if they turned the damn answering machine on if the call came a 3 AM. We have produced the most shameful bunch of ruthless garbage we could possibly offer our Sons and Daughters as Representive of this Great Nation in America and Abroad.
The Europeans view of us may be important to TNEM, hell they fear any government being run by a deranged idiot who controls atomic weapons. Almost all of the world's citizens fear and dislike, or even hate Americans or our government now, because of our deplorable and illegal actions against other nations. But who THEY may support for a president is not OUR busness, whom WE support is our business.
It is not likely most Europeans are familiar with the Senate votes of Obama or Hillary. Heck, most Americans aren't aware of how the two have actually voted.
Those hilarious posts by ~Riverman~, is why I jokingly wrote, that his posts are required reading by the criminally insane. __ LOL.
Actually, the Republicans want to run agaist Obama. They publically state otherwise, but that's just smart politics, or termed "rat-fu##ing" politics. At Caucuses, the republican leaders urge republicans to join the Obama groups and that's why he's won all but three of of the caucus states and currently leads in the delegate count by about 110.
I do want to see a woman as president in my lifetime! And Hillary proves that she is intelligent. Even some medias say only her husband could persuade her to withdraw. But Her winning Ohio and Texas proves herself. Now I totally endorse the points of a book about Hillary -- "An American Journey": http://dealstudio.com/searchdeals.php?deal_id=84962&ru=279 , Yeah, Hillary can do it!
Myshiba: Obama's camp seems to be resorting to name-calling . . . are they starting to panic?
Myshiba, Every once in awhile I check out this websites discussions, but I have to tell you that if you want any objectivity, don't count on it here. The more the majority of writers can trash Hillary Clinton, the better they feel! It's sort of the Rush L. of so-called progressives!
Europe is not America . . . they don't get to pick our leaders (I hope not)!
Obama's camp seems to be resorting to name-calling . . . are they starting to panic?
BTW, I never wrote that "I think you are a freak" sentence, if anyone is confused by his post. Those are Dougie's words.
Yeah ~Dougie boy~, I wrote that Ass kissing blog AFTER you told everyone that I had my head up my ass. Like now, you tell everyone I'm a damn liar. YOU start the shit fights with me and only because I don't agree with all that you believe and I offer decent arguments to debate.
Instead of honest and cordial debating, you come back with insults, that's because you cannot honestly answer my points. Then you start crying like a spoiled little instigating brat if those insults you sling are replied to with the same. Have you ever counted the many others who disagree with you here? You never attack them, I'm your target. Throw some more, they don't penetrate this glass screen. You are such an intelligent person too, __ sad, pitiful. If you pass the bar exams, you will be a sorry lawyer. ___ Of course lots of those make good money.
Is Obama for or against the death penalty?
What about Hillary?
Thanks!
Kem,
(1) you weren't shot down in two wars. You made that up.
(2) You'd have long posts with links if you made sense.
First thing you ever said to me in defending Hillary's vote for war HR 114. Yes, I think you are a freak and a she pretending to be a he. But it could be the other way around.
"I didn't know you were that familiar with my ass. Of course with that code name, you may be someone I know who has kissed it, if not, __ your very welcome. I'll even rent the community hall and have some kegs of suds and invite the whole town to come see it. ___ Hope you are as cute as you write."- Kem Patrick
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/27/6016/
You're repeating yourself again ~River dude~. Of course I do believe you have a good point that Obama may have the most votes when they arrive at the convention in Denver. Of course his votes are mostly from states where the Repugs have a lock and Hillary's votes are more impressive for a Demo candidate, as she didn't earn her's in caucuses. A big difference there. Now let's see, she won the popular vote in Texas, Ohio and she'll will swamp it it in Pa. You can bet Mich and Fla will either count their votes or have another primary. Let it play out, some REALLY bad stuff may come out about Hillary or Obama before the convention. ___ We'll see. Fun huh?
He's already in a bind, ~Tailcap~, hope you own a construction company. You'd need a bulldozer to yank his head out so he could straighten up and see daylight. Then you'd have to hire his nutty sidekick too. Of course you could build a cage I suppose.
Now there is a perfect example of what I've noted. ~David~ here states then Hillary is a war monger, but Obama has voted more as such than she has, twice as much and he don't say a word about that fact. Check their votes.
Hi ~Iowa~ I wasn't picking on the kid, I was just stating the rather obvious. ~Dougwagner~ posts humor and his unstable sidekck ~Riverman~ posts work that is required reading for the criminally insane.
My kindergarten teacher was named Miss Kraft also, maybe we went to the same school? Her first name was Kris, she lived on a house boat.
1972? Golly, I was a lt. Col and had been shot down in two wars before you were born. You sound much older and wiser, ya fooled me.
Hilary Clinton is just another war monger, plain and simple. She is an establishment politician who realises that the current US economy cannot be sustained without conflict in the Third World. Iraq, Iran and Venezuela are US targets simply because they have oil. If those countries had bananas instead the USA would not be interested in them.
Okay - Peace to all. KEM- Thanks for the responses. I owe you a list.
Dougnwagner- You are really good at making your case. Sorry, I don't buy it. I have given up on Democrats. I so hope I am wrong about Obama. I would prefer him to Clinton. Time will tell. Anything is better than McSame.
What type of law do you plan to practice? If I get into a bind I would like to hire you.
hey cranky_chatter
if there is anyway i can acquire i copy of your unpublished manuscripts (hopefully filled with scores of whitty political antedotes) please, please give us a link, i'll sell copies of your book for you.
dougwagner,
you're spot on as usual. i agree the democratic party is fractured in such a way that the anti war/occupation - pro working class/rights of the underprivileged is crying for a spokesperson. if the party is fractured (only a moron couldn't decipher this data from the senators who opposed war in 2002) we need to encourage the 'left' faction of the party to follow it's interest. i don't necessarily believe this will be green. (it could be more like jackson's rainbow, a loose coalition of leftist causes that supports a common goal). whatever form emerges, obama has a great opportunity to stand for the under-represented in denver. let's hope he pulls through for us. thank you for your well researched, annotated, posts...
KEM
hey cool it, i don't care if you criticize politicians, but my kindergarten teacher (in 1972) was named Mrs. Kraft and she was a 60 yr old maid dedicated to her students. i understand, it's easy to pick on politicians and anonymous posters, but kindergarten teachers, have you no shame!!!!!!!
jesus kem, i thought you could at least pick on people who could defend themselves...
...see you in denver...........
...peace..................................
Go ahead ~CRANKY~, Dougwagner and Riverman publish their stories here, Dougwagner can cut and paste blogs better than a 60 year old maid kindegarten teacher.
Hey Tailcap, I thought I answered your question as to what do I think the democrats have done. I said that I don't approve of much our congress has done fot the past 20 some years, that includes democrats and republicans. As to Obama supporting Lieberman, I beleive most we are all are aware of that and that alone should give any cause for concern. Obama is a War Hawk's Hawk. He's the best orator I've ever seen or heard. He could out do a manure spreader being pulled by a jet powered dragster.
The publishers keep sending my book back rejected.
Can I post it here?
BTW, If we are serious about who has the best chance of defeating John McCain in a year when the Conservative base is likely to stay home, it is not the Democratic candidate that motivates them to get out and vote and motivates Obama supporters to stay home.
does this work
tailcap,
while I am sympathetic to your argument it suffers from its own delusions.
Winning elections takes time, money, and people. A third party not committed to winning the city council seat, cannot expect to win the presidential seat. Teddy Roosevelt and Eugene Debs lost when they tried. Numerous other examples could be provided, whatever their merits as candidates and parties, but could not win a national election.
The choice for Progressive activists is not between candidates and platforms, it is between an activated Antiwar pro-Ethics Democratic Party behind an Anitwar Candidate (Obama), and the Pro-war Special Interest Democratic Party behind the Pro-War Candidate (Clinton).
It is that simple. People getting involved in other third party campaigns are resigning themselves to the false notion that Obama is not THE CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN.
I beg to differ. Obama has fought for disclosure of bundlers and for banning of numerous lobbyist practices. Obama has raised more money from small contributors than any campaign in American history. Obama has won every caucus. The Obama version of the Democratic Party is motivated, informed, and Antiwar.
A national security debate between Obama and McCain will be about Judgment.
A national security debate between Clinton and McCain will be about 'toughness'? 'the 90s'? 'winning in Iraq'? She won't win.
She has no winning argument against McCain beyond a failing economy, an argument that Barack Obama can more than win.
Hillary Clinton doesn't have the experience or the skill to get enough old farts and special interests together to win against the Republican Party sure to drive her unfavorability ratings up from 50% to 60% by the time November comes, especially if she is the nominee of the Democratic Party despite having failed to win Texas (caucus + primaries) and secure the majority of pledged delegates.
Her wins in big states only shows what 16 years of saturation of the Clinton name can do for a candidate. And apparently not very much in Minnesota, Illinois, Georgia, Texas, and Wisconsin: all big states Barack Obama has won. Not to mention, that even in Ohio, she lost the urban vote in the major cities of Columbus, Cleveland, and Cincinnati, not to mention Dayton. Are the rural voters of Ohio going to really vote for Clinton over McCain. I wouldn't bet on it. The Reagan Democrats in those parts of the state are going to vote for the candidate most like Reagan- John McCain.
"Clinton's rarely been the threat to the business community that many on the right typically allege… She advocated weakening the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform law, telling Feingold to "live in the real world." Unlike Edwards and Obama, she accepts campaign contributions from lobbyists and corporate PACs. "Ask them why they don't take money from lobbyists," Wolfson retorts. "We're proud of our support."
"Hillary, Inc."
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070604/berman
The Honest Leadership and Open Government Act of 2007
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:s.00001:
"Senator Barack Obama, an Illinois Democrat who was tapped by leaders to oversee ethics overhaul, said the legislation would "ensure that committees aren't slipping in earmarks in the dead of night."
After overcoming resistance inside his own party, Mr. Obama pushed for a provision requiring, for the first time, disclosure by lobbyists who bundle political contributions of more than $15,000 in six months.
"My argument was that it was worth it for us to try to be aggressive on this front, particularly since we were just coming into power," Mr. Obama said, adding that he wished the rules could be enforced by an outside group. "I do think that the public would have more confidence in the process if we had an independent enforcement mechanism."
The legislation is designed to limit the social interaction between lobbyists and lawmakers, making it more difficult for them to get together at sporting events, parties at national political conventions and other social activities.
The bill also deprives former members of Congress who now work as lobbyists of some of the privileges that critics say give them an advantage in pushing legislation. The measure revokes floor privileges to former lawmakers who are lobbying, and denies them access to the House and Senate gyms, other exercise facilities and members-only parking."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/washington/03lobby.html
"A Chance to Change the Game" by Barack Obama
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/03/AR2007010301620.html
"The Republicans who controlled the Senate last year refused to let it come up. And on Jan. 12, before the details of the proposal had been disclosed, Senator Charles E. Schumer, the New York Democrat in charge of his party's fund-raising as head of the senatorial campaign committee, used a run-in on the Senate floor to deliver an angry rebuke to the disclosure idea's lead sponsor, Senator Barack Obama, Democrat of Illinois, several people present or briefed on the confrontation said.
In a subsequent conversation, Mr. Schumer said he worried that the proposal could cramp fund-raising by placing an undue burden on potential bundlers, said aides who were briefed and a lawmaker familiar with their talk, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the nature of the talks.
"Senator Obama has not been the most popular person in our caucus in the last couple of weeks," said a Democratic aide involved in deliberations over the bill. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/20/us/politics/20ethics.html
"Ethics Fencing in the Senate"
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/15/opinion/15mon4.html
"Bundlers in '08"
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/opinion/19fri3.html
KEM PATRICK
Obama backed Joe Lieberman against Lamont. Who is Joe Lieberman? He is the best friend the Bush administration has that still calls himself a Democrat. Joe has even received a big, fat, wet and juicy kiss from George Bush. I am not kidding. Look up Joe on Wikipedia they have a video. The 2000 Democratic Party vice presidential candidate Joe Lieberman has endorsed John "100,000 YrsWar" McSame. He has campaigned for him since. Vote for Democrats! They will save us! A Democratic leader endorses a Republican for president. We don't need a third party, we need a second one.
Do you want me to go into Hillary? She was in Iraq a few years ago with Johnny McSame touting how great things were going in Iraq, a war she voted for. There you have your Democrats KEM.
I am still waiting for you to come up with the list of Democratic Party accomplishments along with the list of reasons to vote for them and what it is you think they are going to do to roll back 16 yrs of Clinton/Bush. I won't hold my breath.
Listen Buddy, I not done. I will make you the list of Democratic Party capitulations and surrenders I promised, but later. I have to run some more errands. I'll get back to you on this or some other thread.
Who was it that said, "I never left the Democratic Party, the Democratic party left me"?
There are two Democratic Parties right now. The one that voted YES for the Iraq War (the Clintons) and the one that voted NO (Obama).
The one that voted YES lost in 2004. Kerry/Edwards did not inspire the independent voters or the youth vote. This is the same old Pro-war party that is undermining Democracy in the Democratic Party today. They do not now and will not by the end of this race in Puerto Rico in June have the MAJORITY of PLEDGED DELEGATES.
The one that voted NO inspires Democrats, Independents, Liberal Republicans (like Lincoln Chafee, an Obama endorser who unlike Hillary Clinton voted against the Iraq War), and The Youth Vote. They do now and will by the end of this race in Puerto Rico in June have the MAJORITY of PLEDGED DELEGATES. This is the same Antiwar party that Paul Wellstone belonged to, that Dennis Kucinich belongs to, that Ted Kennedy belongs to, that John Lewis belongs to, that Nancy Pelosi belongs to, that Russ Feingold belongs to, and that Tom Daschle, Byron Dorgan, and John Kerry have joined.
The Two Democratic Parties Cannot Both Win. The Pro-War Democratic Party will have to throttle the needle to explain who it is and like Hillary Clinton, will lose on the basis of a multiple personality disorder.
The Antiwar Democratic Party led by Barack Obama at the national level and Iraq War Veteran Patrick Murphy in Pennnsylvania is the New Face of the Democratic Party and can lead this country with a clear conscience.
The 2002 Iraq War Vote
"It is noteworthy, then, that Senator Clinton voted against an amendment sponsored by Senator Carl Levin that would have authorized U.S. military action against Iraq if the UN Security Council approved the use of force and instead voted for the resolution authorizing President Bush to invade Iraq at the time and circumstances of his own choosing.
If Senator Clinton believes the United States can unilaterally claim the right to invade Iraq because of that country's violation of Security Council resolutions, other Council members could logically also claim the right to invade other states that are in material breach of UN Security Council resolutions, such as Israel, Morocco, Turkey, Armenia, Pakistan and India . Her insistence on the right of the United States to unilaterally invade foreign countries because of alleged violations of UN Security Council resolutions seriously undermines the principle of collective security and the authority of the United Nations and thereby opens the door to international anarchy."- Stephen Zunes, Professor of Political Science, The University of San Francisco
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/23/7245/
The Senate Vote
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vo...
YEAs ---77 Allard (R-CO) Allen (R-VA) Baucus (D-MT) Bayh (D-IN) Bennett (R-UT) Biden (D-DE) Bond (R-MO) Breaux (D-LA) Brownback (R-KS) Bunning (R-KY) Burns (R-MT) Campbell (R-CO) Cantwell (D-WA) Carnahan (D-MO) Carper (D-DE) Cleland (D-GA) Clinton (D-NY) Cochran (R-MS) Collins (R-ME) Craig (R-ID) Crapo (R-ID) Daschle (D-SD) DeWine (R-OH) Dodd (D-CT) Domenici (R-NM) Dorgan (D-ND) Edwards (D-NC) Ensign (R-NV) Enzi (R-WY) Feinstein (D-CA) Fitzgerald (R-IL) Frist (R-TN) Gramm (R-TX) Grassley (R-IA) Gregg (R-NH) Hagel (R-NE) Harkin (D-IA) Hatch (R-UT) Helms (R-NC) Hollings (D-SC) Hutchinson (R-AR) Hutchison (R-TX) Inhofe (R-OK) Johnson (D-SD) Kerry (D-MA) Kohl (D-WI) Kyl (R-AZ) Landrieu (D-LA) Lieberman (D-CT) Lincoln (D-AR) Lott (R-MS) Lugar (R-IN) McCain (R-AZ) McConnell (R-KY) Miller (D-GA) Murkowski (R-AK) Nelson (D-FL) Nelson (D-NE) Nickles (R-OK) Reid (D-NV) Roberts (R-KS) Rockefeller (D-WV) Santorum (R-PA) Schumer (D-NY) Sessions (R-AL) Shelby (R-AL) Smith (R-NH) Smith (R-OR) Snowe (R-ME) Specter (R-PA) Stevens (R-AK) Thomas (R-WY) Thompson (R-TN) Thurmond (R-SC) Torricelli (D-NJ) Voinovich (R-OH) Warner (R-VA)
NAYs ---23 Akaka (D-HI) Bingaman (D-NM) Boxer (D-CA) Byrd (D-WV) Chafee (R-RI) Conrad (D-ND) Corzine (D-NJ) Dayton (D-MN) Durbin (D-IL) Feingold (D-WI) Graham (D-FL) Inouye (D-HI) Jeffords (I-VT) Kennedy (D-MA) Leahy (D-VT) Levin (D-MI) Mikulski (D-MD) Murray (D-WA) Reed (D-RI) Sarbanes (D-MD) Stabenow (D-MI) Wellstone (D-MN) Wyden (D-OR)
The House Vote
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2002/roll455.xml
The vitriol and hatred poured upon Clinton says more about the minds of the various writers than it ever does about her! At the end of it all, both candidates fall somehwere in the middle as far as character goes - some good, some not so! The over emotional want to invest Obama with a Messiah status - but his current kowtowing to the Israel Lobby when previously he has said he supports the Palestinians is evidence that he plays the game to win every bit as deceitfully as probably every other politician. At the end of it all, whoever wins, he or she will need all Democrat votes to oust the Republican machine. Stop whining and sulking folks, and grow up!
I plan to vote against Hillary as does my husband and mother. I'll end up voting green party. Let's hope Obama is the nominee so the three of us have someone decent to vote for.
monster - subhuman? where did that come from?
Search this page for the word "monster."
you're implying those who use terms you disagree with (don't monsters reside in children's bedtime stories?) are 'subhuman', that somehow you've elevated yourself above making moral or ethical choices. please…
That implication was not my intention. Just the opposite--I fail to live up to my own standards at least 10 times a day, and everyone else I know seems to be the same. Perhaps I just live in a particularly pathetic part of the world and you guys really are better people than anyone I know. But from what I've observed every human being has some Hillary Clinton in them. And it certainly seems to me most (not all) of the "progressives" here are just as abusive and closed minded as the average Republican.
Hillary voted for the war, and the Clintons seem to do just about anything to get power again. Hillary could probably be a good general manager for business as usual, in our current corrupted system, that's been run by a Bush or Clinton for the over 20 years.
I hope Barack Obama can leverage more of that wholesome inspiration, and take more of a stand. Whether it's Dennis Kucinich, Ron Paul, or Ralph Nader, its obvious those movements have something Americans and the rest of the world is waiting for, and that's real freedom for everyone.
It's not time for a revolution; it's time for an evolution, which shouldn't be feared, because all good things will only get better. Barack Obama, you're the only one with the skills to articulate this new path!
I agee with chakka and Lee Ann. Why does Samantha feel she has to apologize for calling her a monster. Hillary comes out with all kinds of nasty stuff about Obama and that is ok? Obama needs to start getting tougher. Maybe he could do an add with Hillary and McCain together and asking the question, Is Hillary running on the Democrat ticket or Republican because she seems to think McCain should be President? That is really bad when she praises McCain over her own Democratic rival. It's treasonous. I don't know if I can vote for her if she gets the nomination. I have lost respect for her. The only thing is, if she did get it, we are looking at some Supreme Court appointees in the next four years and we don't want more conservatives put on the bench. Our country is headed in the wrong direction there too. That would be the only reason I would vote for her. I'm disgusted with the Democratic Party after this last election. They vote with the Republicans and the Speaker and Harry Reid are about worthless.
As to what our congress has done of any real importnace in the past 20 years that I approve of, I can count on the thumbs of both hands. We need a third party. Unless and until the laws are dramatically revised on how congress is elected, __ how much money they can spend campaigning, __ outlaw political TV ads, __ limit terms to eight years, __ don't allow major corporations to rule the media and press __ and outlaw lobbying, __ we won't likely have many, or any third party candidates elected for our US congress.
I wanted John Edwards or Kucinich, we don't always get what we want. Now we have two Demo candidates and we have to check their voting records to see how they "truthfully" stand on important issues. Or not check their voting records and instead assume things, which MAY be ignorant and false assumptions.
Sure our Congress ALL vote safely sometimes. The point is, Clinton and Obama voted differently on those very important issues. Then Obama is runing on a platform, that he has always voted against the war, that's "truthfully" not so, it's innacurate and a distortion of the truth, which many don't wish to hear. He has not voted against the Bush occupation of Iraq, and very importantly, has not voted against Bush's policies on Iran. ___ Hillary has, __ several times. You do not have ME by the short hairs. As you stated, you'll actually check it out. Please do,___ everyone should.
They are different there, __ very different. And those who sling insults, as some others have when that is pointed out, are not changing how they voted. Their votes are recorded and are history. That's how it is. We either accept the truth of it, or deny the truth. Whatever makes one's heart throb.
Sure I will. And many times Democrats vote safely when they know it won't pass anyway. Did you check out their voting records on funding the war? Please do it. I gotta do some errands. I'll get back with you later.
If you have time Democrat, make a list of all the Democratic Party's accomplishments in the last 8 yrs and also the reasons we should vote for them now. Don't list reasons to not vote for Republicans. I look forward to this if you are up to the task.
I can do the same and I'll come up with a list of Democratic Party capitulations and rollovers on both legislation and appointments . Mukasey comes quickly to mind but there is a host. Talk to you soon Kem.
ps The war is my main issue. On that issue I believe I got you by the short hairs. CHECK OUT THEIR RECORDS ON FUNDING THE WAR!
Check it out ~TAILCAP~. It would take 10,000 words to write it all here. I checked their votes and was glad that I did. ___ I was very surprised. Hillary actually voted progressively eight times out of twelve, (that includes six votes on the Iraqi occupation.) Obama on the exact same bills, FOUR times progressively. That's two to one in her favor. ___ Check it out, come back and debate it.
Hillary should release her financial statemets and if not, Obama should rightfully hammer her on it. He should stop saying he's against the "occupatin" of Iraq, because his votes tell a totally different story. __ CHECK IT OUT.
Okay, address the voting records on the war.
barely human March 8th, 2008 12:41 pm
monster - subhuman? where did that come from?
i made a specific point earlier pointing out that the clintons were not single-celled organisms (scum) i prefer monsters because they're more animated.
actually by emphasizing the point of humanness/monsters, you seem to be puffing up your opinion of yourself. you're implying those who use terms you disagree with (don't monsters reside in children's bedtime stories?) are 'subhuman', that somehow you've elevated yourself above making moral or ethical choices. please... and than to make the retort, that using rhetoric makes one a neo-con. talk about trivializing concepts. believe me i grapple w/ my role in western civilization everyday, as all of us do - call me a monster. i'd prefer to define the terms sir. what is a monster? what is the behavior of a monster (total disregard for social mores - hence they're scarry).
the clinton's are exhibiting reckless (not subhuman actually very human) behavior in their campaign tactics (the context in which powers used the term monster) and the clintons are exhibiting reckless regard for the constitution by manipulating language to subvert the intent of the constitution (remember,i did not have sex with that woman). i would describe that as reckless and scary thus i think the term monster applies. (human monsters, is that better... check out your OED there are many ways to define monster).
also.... don't assume you know how i or others counter/cope/resist western civilization, we may have bumped into each other at the coop on our way to an antiwar demonstration before we went and watched the r nader flick at the art house. don't be presumptuous. thank you for reminding us to be more 'introspective'
....peace........
Post script: I hope he wins and brings back the "hillary is a monster" gal and makes her Secretary of State.
Perhaps she should run against Clinton next time her Senate Seat goes up for grabs.
Thank you Tom for your always insightful ideas.
I strongly suggest that we focus on what we want from this next administration and hope the person with the best vision and leadership can step up to the Job. I suspect that is Obama but I don't know for sure. It is not McCain.
First we need to move away from the fear based policies of anti-terrorism. Terror has no affect on the world if the citizens join together in courage. Heartless people run by fear can be convinced to do terrible things.
Second the world needs a vision of coming together for the greater good. Corporations either join in or they are reduced to public service agencies.
Third money influence in DC has to be eliminated now. No one, I want to repeat that, no one is looking out for what is for the greater good, what is best for the people. That is wrong and must be ammended immediately with the new administation.
Fourth it is time we evolve past the big stick mentality and actually build constructive relationships with all nations. Killing for control and power is the most primative, heartless and ignorant method ever.
Fifth we each are responsible for our government. If you and I continue to not care, be unconscious, and close our hearts then we will only have more of the same.
Courageous, conscious, compassionate citizens needed.
Joseph
www.explorelifeblog.com and www.peace-together.com
I sure as hell ain't gonna count on the Repugs to save any days and a third party isn't gong to win anything. So what are you smoking? Again, LOL
Nope. We're not all neocons now. Just Clinton.
Nope, Obama isn't attacking Clinton with wild and diverse allegations and mischaracterizations. No "women are weak" coded messages to infer. Just the Klinton Kamp suggesting he's a rooty poot light skinned, hip, slick, fast talkin' negro... preying upon the prejudices of even African American people within our own community.
Anyone else notice the sexual tension? Before the Klinton Kamp is done we'll be thinkin "mandingo" and "birth of a nation," baby.
It makes me sick.
There is NO correct strategy when the giants of media target your happy a$$. It's all over but the crying.
Vice President Obama? = Opening scene of Myra Breckinridge. It was nothing but a Rap Contest slam, Hillary hinting "you can be my b**ch."
Dream ticket? You're dreaming. We need Obama in the Senate if he can't take the White House... and about 35 more, just like him.
No you are dead wrong. It is not everyone that is a neocon or basically evil in character. It is the few. The few that use everything from fear to Jesus Christ for the sake of their own greed and power. George Bush calls himself a Christian only for the sake of his greed and lust for power. You see George Bush could not have read a single word of Jesus. Virtually everything he and his neocon hoods have done is completely opposite of Christ in every regard-- as literally anti-christian as it can possibly be. Western civilization has fallen victim to these sorts of monsters taking over governmental machinery just as societies throughout history have. The vast majority of us are good wonderful people that would just as soon switch over to boundless clean renewable energy and stop all torture and upgrade the living standards of the world all of which would make us all vastly wealthier. These few monsters make things happen for their exclusive benefit at nearly everyone else's expense.
Bush won 2000 only by having 93,000 votes disenfranchised in Florida and in 2004 by massive Ohio voter fraud. No I don't blame most of America for these people--except to say, as most of us now realize, that we must take our country back. Back from these people who have undermined everything we together and as individuals stand for. We all must be strong and stick to our principles but above all stop falling for the deceptions of these monsters.
I see you didn't bother to check their voting records.___BUD, lol.
Yea, sure bud, whatever. Which is the most progressive within a narrow conservative band that is pro-war, pro-corporate and pro-establishment. Where is the progressive part? Lets start with the war. What are your Bend-over_crats going to do about that?
Obama: Increase the military by 100,000 troops and increase the military budget. Voted to fund it. Anti-war speech 5 years stale.
Clinton: Voted for the war, funded it. No commitment to bring all the troops home.
Frogs stay in the water till it's too late. Voting for a Dim is like being a frog.
And on the issue of who is progressive. I would argue that no "true progressive" worth his salt would vote for either Hillary or Obama. Call me whatever you want. I am no longer buying into the same-old, same-old 2-party duopoly that keeps lurching to the right. Don't like the blogs don't read them.
Keep smokin buddy. Keep counting on your Democrats to save the day.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely refuse to vote for Clinton. But I don't imagine she's any more subhuman than I. Or rather, I don't try to redefine humanness to meet my own political purposes (or need to puff up my self-image). After all, that's exactly what the right does, isn't it?
Tell me, do you so-called "progressives" actually believe you don't have an evil side, or that you are uninfected by Western "Civilization," and that you have no part in and in no way cooperate with the crimes our culture commits? Are you that bereft of introspection?
Are we all neo-cons now?
CHECK THEIR VOTING RECORDS FOR YOURSELVES. They are not even close to being the same. A fifth grader with an IQ of 90 could easily detect the major differences of Hillary and Obama.
More than half of the ones blogging here who proclaim they are "progressives" are kidding themselves. Check it out and see which of the two, Hillary or Obama, has voted on important issues "progressively". That is precicely where they actually stand on the issues, ___ how they voted on them. Some of the bloggers here are nothing but bullheaded, loud mouthed jerk-offs, who don't have a clue of what they are writing on the subject of politics and the candidates, just blah, blah, blah, day after day.
~WHATEVERYOUSAY~ at 3:57am, nailed it perfectly. Check their voting records with an honest and open mind and then argue or debate it honesty and sensibly. If you are honest and sensible that is. Or, just continue to merrily blog away and exhibit your incredible, self centered ignorance. Both candidates have made serious mistakes, both have good qualifications, which of the two is the most progressive? If you don't pick the correct one, you don't know how to comprehend reading or dind't bother to check it out. In that case, your're a loud mouth sophist.
EveningLand March 8th, 2008 12:07 pm
I disagree strongly. One is a pro-war, pro-corporate, establishment woman Republican, and the other is an establishment, pro-corporate, pro-war black Republican. These are major differences.
barely human March 8th, 2008 11:32 am,
thanks for clearing that up barely human, so that explains why hillary could negotiate w/ olmert, or the crown prince of saudi arabia, or musharaff but not chavez, castro or ahmadinejad...
it really is a matter of perspective and semantics isn't it? my cat is a monster to the mouse in the house. the mouse is by no means a monster for my cat.
i trust amy goodman's perspective. let's try a little experiment. listen to samantha powers interview w/ amy goodman last week (focus on powers' communication skills in addition to what she's saying)
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/2/25/barack_obamas_senior_foreign_policy_adviser
then listen to amy's commentary about her interview with president clinton in 2000 before the general (of course moments before hillary ascended to the senate). just take a few moments (from a 'progressive' perspective) to listen, then give me your opinion of monsters. (at this point hillary is openly running as a surrogate candidate for her husband)
www.democracynow.org/2004/6/22/bill_clinton_loses_his_cool_in
- let's be real we're talking about a president who wants a 3rd term, this is against the rules, remember.
in the context of american politics and the constitution i would say a monster is one who has no respect for the constitution (22nd amendment).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22nd_amendment
"Section 1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once. But this article shall not apply to any person holding the office of President when this article was proposed by the Congress, and shall not prevent any person who may be holding the office of President, or acting as President, during the term within which this article becomes operative from holding the office of President or acting as President during the remainder of such term."
what other recent US president had problems w/ the 22nd amendment ?
(from wiki, above)
"Ronald Reagan publicly supported repealing the amendment. Bill Clinton stated his opposition to repealing the amendment, but supported modifying it to prohibit former presidents from serving more than two consecutive terms, but permitting them to seek election after an intervening term.[6]"
what exactly were hillary's credentials before she arrived in the senate ?
yes barely human, clintons are a monster....
........continue to support sheehan........
....peace.......................................
Tom Hayden is making a mighty effort to come up with a strategy that will set Obama apart from Clinton.
But why is that necessary? Why all of this hand wringing at this late stage of the game to squeeze out a difference between these two candidates?
Why has Obama kept his distinguishing traits hidden until now? What else is he hidding?
If there were a substantive difference between Clinton and Obama, and not merely a contest of words ('hope', 'chane', 'experience', and all the other general terms these folks are so fond of) and cheap shots, issued primarily by Hillary, that difference would have reached the light of day a long time ago in the campaign, and would not need the lights of a Tom Hayden to be "figured out."
I think you're right and you're Barely Human.
I have a problem with human beings calling other human beings monsters as if they aren't monsters too.
Firstly I don't understand what it is everyone means when they say, "Hillary is the one attacking." Obama has been every bit the attacker against the Clintons-- non-stop though it doesn't seem to show up on the major media for some reason. I still sincerely believe that these neocon defense industrial complex media/news outlets like CNN and MSNBC are anti-hillary and pro-Obama because they are convinced they can destroy Obama against McCain. I think a Clinton-Obama ticket would be the best thing imaginable. One thing needs being done is to not support this massive wasteful spending on defense contractors like Blackwater. Much of what they do has been done much more cheaply by the US military and besides it is against international law to use what are de facto mercenaries in an occupied country. Let's put the money into our troops welfare improving their benefits and trying to make their lives whole after this mass-murdering campaign in Iraq the Bush administration has done. A nightmare veritable holocaust all to steal money from the US treasury. Let's put a stop to it and save our country and economy.
I think a Hillary/Obama ticket woud GUARANTEE a Democratic winning ticket in November!!!! I am aware that a group of us want an Obama ticket and another group of us want a Clinton ticket. Well, if we put them together I do not think McCain would have any chance whatsoever of actually taking the Predsidency. That would be a win/win for all of us! Both of them have specific strengths and talelnts they will bring to the table. I think combining these strengths and talents will set us up to get the most bang for the buck in both our domestic and foreign policies. Obama can focus upon our standing in the court of world opinion while Clinton focuses on our economy and other domestic policies. I really think this would enable us to make the most changes in the least amount of time. Also, I feel very strongly that it would guarantee the defeat of a John McCain Presidency. Another thought, if Hillary goes in as President and Obama as VP, then he will be a shoe-in for the Presidency eight years from now. That will all but guarantee him 16 years in the White House!
Only weeks ago we were nearly giddy over the prospect of new blood inhabiting the White House after the debacle of eight years of deception, moral drought and institutionalized insanity. Now we are faced with the very real possibility that the next president will be a woman who is looking more and more like 'a man with a bra.' We were hoping her femininity would bring fresh perspective to the position rather than a vicious meanstreak usually the domain of men in leadership. After her behavior of late will she simply demean herself and the country by being the bitch we all hoped she would not be?
Gee Tom, I see you've decided it's best to sell the wars to Democrats jow. Shame on all of you!
Clinton/McPain More of the SAME!
Hillery
Dillory
Dock
Hillery ran out the Clock
She dresses Neat and Clean
Financed by an
Well Oiled
Machine
Dirty politics has returned
Can anyone discern?
The difference between
War
and
Media
Consolidation?
8 more years!
More fall down
and
Stink!
Bill from Saginaw March 7th, 2008 4:43 pm
"Hillary's best hope right not is to goad Barack into a knife fight. He shouldn't take the bait and get into a "toughness" contest."
The best way to win a knife fight is to bring a gun.
As for Hillary, she can't win anyway. There are twelve more races and she only has ten pairs of pants suits left. :-)
Lobo Gris
ALOHA !!
History shows repeatedly that both the "two-party aristocracy" have plenty of blood on their hands and have provided the US Voters with a vast supply of failed Foreign Policy tied to Foreign Aid in turn tied to our disappearing Middle Class taxpayers. Their track record is abyssmal at best! You cannot buy loyalty and you cannot buy democracy and you cannot buy peace with the cheap currency and glarring vain ignorance of War. I learned that in schoolyards of my youth many years ago. Why would it be any different in the corrupt hallowed halls of the US Congress and the Oval Office? I mean can't we all just get along here?
Tom Hayden misses his aim by a mile as does most of the people posting comments here. You can never make honest a government built upon corrupt money for governments are only as honest as their money. To affect a long lasting change in the US government of today you have to dismantle the current monetary system with which we operate freely as the police force of Planet Earth! There is no accountability in our government because there is no accountability in our US Dollar. If we can print ad infinitum then we can also make War into infinity. The US Treasury is operating in unconstitutional monetary waters as is our President and our representatives who accept this treason in exchange for their own fleeting misguided legacies of greed and power. These people do not spend an entire lifetime maneuvering for power and then turn away and not use it at their zenith of temptation. Ah, that has always been the human condition at its worst and it dwells in ruthless abandon in the politics of the America today. As long as there exists no "brakes" on spending then there will never be any brakes on immorality. Isn't that how these two parties got us to this point? The choices are not choices since how can you have a choice as long as the only choices we have to vote for worship the same Master ... Tom discard all your well worn political playbooks full of the same old tired tactics along with your tired old two-party system based on the unending debt of a Federal Reserve Note!
B-O-R-I-N-G !!!!
Once again, Tom Hayden writes as if from the planet Mars. He proposes strategies for the peace movement that have been ongoing for many years now.
Despite public opinion that is clear on the issue of the wars and occupations, Democrats (and pundits like Mr. Hayden) pretend that the people aren't communicating with the candidates on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.
He wants us to look for a difference in Obama's and Clinton's war plans, but we've looked at them and they are virtually the same, with the same weasel room for continuing the occupations.
I don't know why some folks keep praising Hayden's essays here. He offers no strategy that's practical, or that hasn't already been done.
The candidates' minds are made up, and they are all unified supporters of the wars (yes, Obama funded the wars).
Here's a strategy that might work: Don't pay your taxes next month. However, everyone has to do it. Maybe then the candidates might understand that we are pissed off - or do you all think sending a few polite letters will make a difference?
or not
Seems, when I edited my previous post, it was mixed about. Sorry, forget it and hopefully this one is better...
It's late in the thread and…oh well, here goes anyway.
What I notice here, after reading CD for a LONG time, is that the same people post the same arguments, citing this 'proof' or that 'evidence' over and over again. What most everyone here seems to be doing is just looking for ammunition to support their own opinions. I see very few posts that display open mindedness. Most everyone is just 'stuck' in their fixed opinions (or so it seems) and repeatedly say the same things over and over again, citing some 'example' as proof that THEIR PERSONAL OPINION is the CORRECT one.
Well, get this everyone; No matter what you believe, you can find 'proof' to back it up. Oh crap, where is that twenty dollar bill I had? I am sure I left it on the table. I know, the baby sitter took it. In fact, just the other day she was saying she was short of funds to buy a new bike. I know she took it because… blah blah blah. And next week you find the twenty dollar bill in your jacket pocket.
Obama DOES inspire hope and Clinton DOES inspire fear. That is obvious.
If you think we can go forward into a good future without 'optimism', think again. If you think we will go ahead into a good future via pimping 'fear', think again.
In that sense, I would say Obama is intelligent and I would say that Clinton is shrewd. It's not that complicated. I, for one, am an optimist. Pessimists can….well you know.
Sorry, that last post was edited all weird like... try this corrected one
It's late in the thread and...oh well, here goes anyway.
What I notice here, after reading CD for a LONG time, is that the same people post the same arguments, citing this 'proof' or that 'evidence' over and over again. What most everyone here seems to be doing is just looking for ammunition to support their own opinions. I see very few posts that display open mindedness. Most everyone is just 'stuck' in their fixed opinions (or so it seems) and repeatedly say the same things over and over again, citing some 'example' as proof that THEIR PERSONAL OPINION is the CORRECT one.
Well, get this everyone; No matter what you believe, you can find 'proof' to back it up. Oh crap, where is that twenty dollar bill I had? I am sure I left it on the table. I know, the baby sitter took it. In fact, just the other day she was saying she was short of funds to buy a new bike. I know she took it because… blah blah blah. And next week you find the twenty dollar bill in your jacket pocket.
Obama DOES inspire hope and Clinton DOES inspire fear. That is obvious.
If you think we can go forward into a good future without 'optimism', think again. If you think we will go ahead into a good future via pimping 'fear', think again.
In that sense, I would say Obama is intelligent and I would say that Clinton is shrewd. It's not that complicated. I, for one, am an optimist. Pessimists can....well you know.
Hillary can't run with McCain in the Spring and then run against him in the Fall.
And Samantha Power was exactly right: she's a monster, every bit as sociopathic as Bush is.
Hayden,
Very foolish of you to endorse Obama; especially since he's been so condescending to "Tom Hayden" Democrats.
No wonder we progressives always lose.
I'd vote for Obama, but will not vote for Clinton. I hate McCain, but Clinton's selfishness is disturbing. Rewarding her awful campaign by voting for her will only encourage others to be just as dirty, or worse, in the future.
Her message: All that matters is winning. All that matters is me. If I can't have it, no one can.
Great role model.
Tom Hayden mentions something I took note of a few days ago. As Clinton calls herself a "fighter," I can not help but think of George W. Both George W. and McCain also tout themselves as "fighters," and I don't really think the American public wants "fighters" anymore. We need listeners who will listen to the will of the people. I really hope Obama continues to stick to his principles, it has gotten him this far; why act out of desperation?
George W. was a fighter in Florida of 2000... why he "fought" his way to the white house through the Supreme Court didn't he? McCain is calling himself a "fighter" ready to keep the US in Iraq for a 100 more years. Now Hillary is willing to "fight on" despite the realistic evidence that it will not only alienate voters, but damage her own reputation and the party's chances of winning in the fall. Do we really need more "fighters?"
I really think the American public is used to a reactionary style politics where every blow is traded blow for blow. Kerry made the mistake of leaving the Swift Boat attacks unanswered. But his biggest mistake was not answering them sooner, because he did answer them. His biggest mistake was not to work 25 hours a day - clarifying the issue until the Americans got their facts straight, knew who to believe and were quite frankly sick of hearing about it. When someone shocks you with falsehood you respond by an overbearing abundance of the truth.
If Obama wants to succeed he needs to work 25 hours a day keeping the facts straight so that he is the one dictating what the talking points are on CNN and FOX and not the rumor mills the gossip columns and the web blogs (except this one). He needs to be almost overbearing in his pursuit of the truth and the representation of it, whatever it may be.
I don't know his story only he does. But if he is who he says he is, as Doctor Phil (Operah's buddy) says, "A man who has nothing to hide hides from nothing."
The Republicans do it all the time. They give a press conference and they tell you exactly what they want you to hear no more no less. Why should it be so hard for Obama?
Hey folks! Wake up! Obama can offer us something different than the usual hogwash we've been getting lo these many years! We know what Hillary has to offer, and it comes with Bill...come on! let's get on with a new program that maybe we can't totally anticipate and appreciate, but we know it's not going to be the same ol same ol. Out with the bureaucrats of yesteryear! And all their sins and miscalcultions and lies and hyprocisy... we need a new approach, a new person without the old baggage. Obame has generously offered himself--who the heck knows why. But we know where we've been and it hasn't been pretty and it has had disastrous consequences in every way. We are a broken country before the world, we are not trusted, our word isn't worth anything, we make our ways with guns and bombs. We need another approach and Clinton and McCain aren't offering anything different. The young of our nation are excited about an Obama win... let's drop our old blather and join up with them... it's their world to come, after all. Let's go with it.
What a damb fool I was/am-I didn't know you could gain all of this foreign policy experience with just an occasional injection of meat!
I love this. Obama good hope. Clinton bad Bill.
You Democrats are completely missing the point that back in 1992 Clinton was Obama. Man from Hope, must vote Democrats. Must be delusional. McSame will win. If he doesn't 12 years from now you will be bitching about Obama and what a sell out he turned out and pitching your new "Man from Hope" (another Democrat). Give the Hope pipe a rest people.
Vote Greens!
Obama must separate himself from Hillary if he wants to win the nomination. Certainly he is on defense against an entire Establishment. Hillary/McCain, all media pundits, loyal clintonites, undecideds, on and on.
He must express his position on the Economy, withdrawal from Iraq, Impeachment of Bush/Chaney, and many other issues. He is truly a capable Leader.
Voters must not be so easily swayed by the orchestrated onslaught of the Establishment owned Media. The Integrity of this group has long ago been sold to their Corporate Owners.
Remember how convincing they were in leading us into this Occupation of Iraq for Oil.
Obama voters must be diligent and trust your guts. Be assured, Obama will bring about Change as President of the United States. Of course Bush certainly brought about all of the evil changes we currently see.
If Obama reveals all of his intentions, the Establishment will destroy him. He is wise to remain a mystery.
On the other hand, they know Hillary and Bill. They are all of the same mind. Hillary's vote on Iraq,the DNC's consideration to redo Florida/Michigan, the Media's lack of Integrity, the introduction of the superdelegates are all Establishment ploys to conserve the "Status quo"
Earthian's point regarding the use of the word 'war' to describe the laying waste to Iraq by the U.S. is very well taken: the U.S. is not waging war in Iraq, but is rather a force of occupation whose mission it is to destroy Iraq's socialist economy, to modify its laws so as to make its ressources available to the United States' omnivorous capitalism, to stoke its oil addiction, to build its fortress-like embassy, to establish its military bases, and to intimidate Iran, Russia, and China.
Once that fact is clearly recognized, McCain's autistic call for victory in Iraq becomes exposed for what it is, namely, nonsense.
COMarc is right: one party, with two right wings, manages the affairs of the evil empire and services the ploutocrats.
The contest between Hillary Bushlite and Obama is a phony contest, a piece of absurdist theater destined to make the masses believe U.S. democracy is functioning properly. That is the cash value of that allegedly exciting campaign for the Democratic nomination.
Obama and Clinton on the same ticket would be the perfect happy ending of this Ubuesque play. They could win the election and rule happily thereafter.
Tom is incredibly right in his analysis of where Obama stands to lose and how Clinton plans to hijack important messages. Obama must get agressive on issues that reveal Clinton's veiled truths. If he doesn't get explicit on the Iraq Solution and on the economy, Clinton will take them over completely, perhaps even marrying the two as a reason for our disastrous domestic situation. (She would rather attribute Iraq than Nafta/immigration because of her latino support)
The problem with his Iraq message is that it poses no solution for the future & because both Clinton and Obama have (unfortunately) opposed the war verbally but funded it anyway, those arguments are weak.
Obama needs to listen...Clinton is taking over the issues and leaving you with the hopeandchange theme that has run its course. It's not enough to depend on the delegate math to get you through.
"Obama must get tougher without contradicting the high standards he is setting for himself. "
IOW, he needs to stoop to Clinton's level.
As sad as this sounds, it appears to be true. Witness Ohio and Texas where Clinton ran negative ads about Obama and enough people sucked it up. This happens more often than not.
We shouldn't count on the better angels of our nature to change the truth about American voters in 2008: We love to be pandered to. It comes as a result of generations of corporatized, over emotionalized, and infantilized "re-education" efforts. As Sigmund Freud's nephew, Edward Bernays knew the masses could be swayed, and he proved it in spades! Ever since then, the American masses have been taught to act like needy, greedy children. What started as a plan to drum up desire for consumer goods after World War II, has taken off to all facets of our lives, including (especially) politics during elections.
While we don't really know what Obama will do vis a vis the war if elected, it's pretty evident that Clinton will keep us in. McCain? If he is president there will be no corner of this world that don't have active "democracies" without the presence of US soldiers (and, of course, we will decide who is a democracy and who isn't).
I will vote for Obama out of a sense both hope and desperation. Daniel David should be proud - as should the Devil.
Folks, I have a Question. If Hillary gained so much experience as First Lady to qualify for President, What is here record as First Lady? And do the last 10 FirstLadies also qualify. I would like a factual answer. The Office of FirstLady is a part of the Presidency.
Office of the First Lady
The Office of the First Lady of the United States is accountable to the First Lady of the United States for her to carry out her duties as hostess of the White House, and is also in charge of all social and ceremonial events of the White House. The First Lady has her own staff that includes the White House Social Secretary, a Chief of Staff, Press Secretary, Chief Floral Designer, Executive Chef, etc. The Office of the First Lady is a branch of the Executive Office of the President (EOP).
Let's review her record in this Branch. Or was she so busy trying to be President?
Navarro,
I was saying that one of the candidates is directly complicit in the corporate corruption of WalMart, while the other has key staffer who has devoted her life to ending that corporate corruption and acting on behalf of WalMart's employees. Can you imagine Clinton hiring the founder of a corporate watchdog group as one of her key staffers?
As that article you linked points out, Michelle Obama's connection to WalMart is very indirect. She was on the board of a company that produces peppers and peppers which are sold to WalMart. It's a bit disappointing that Michelle Obama would work with a company that does any business with WalMart, but it's qualitatively different than actually working for WalMart. These are totally not moral equivalents.
And btw, Michelle Obama resigned from that position a year ago.
Here it is only March and we have two inferior candidates that we're supposedly stuck with ---
Hillary showing signs of being just like what we're trying to get rid of --
Obama showing signs of being another Jimmy Carter
So -- we have it all tied up with a bow now EARLIER . . . ??
Why????
What we needed was more time --- more time to hear what Kucinich and Edwards had to say and to permit other candidates to hang around longer.
More time for Clinton, especially, to show how unworthy she is --
MEANWHILE . .
There is no possible way that the Democrats can lose this election no matter who they run ---
The only way that Republicans can gain votes is thru steals which we've had since the mid-1960's . . . *
Will there be another?
Will we be prepared this time or in as much shock and awe as the previous times?
* See: "Votescam, The Stealing of America"
by Jim & Ken Collier
http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm
In the meantime, while we're busy doing the to and fro of "this fascist or that fascist" for POTUS, the OTHER fascist, "McCain"'s lobbyist "adviser" Charles R. Black, Jr., THE lobbyist on retainer for United Technologies, is busy trying to acquire Diebold!! so McCain can......
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GzPXer7946E
Anyone remember "The Wizard of Oz"?
"Never mind that man behind the curtain! I am the great and powerful Wizard of Oz!"
The man behind the curtain is....
Diebold.
Demand to write in your votes. Demand to stay for the count. Demand to follow the ballots to the county Registrar's office. Guard the ballots. Don't let them out of your sight!
re Cynthia707 comment above, suggesting Wal-Mart money is a "key difference between the players behind these two campaigns."
-----
If there's a "key difference", it might be that the Clintons have gone more for power, and the Obamas more for $ and -- that house, for heaven's sake! -- conspicuous consumption.
The Obamas are ALSO enmeshed in Wal-Mart money:
"Obama called hypocrite for wife's Wal-Mart link"
By Philip Sherwell in New York, Sunday Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/13/wobama13.xml
Thanks Dims:
http://www.fff.org/comment/com0609g.asp
The military tribunals that Congress enacted at the behest of President Bush effectively toss those legal principles into the ashcan of the "war on terrorism." No habeas corpus, grand-jury indictments, due process of law, speedy and public trials, trial by jury, and protection from unreasonable searches and seizures, incompetent evidence, coerced testimony, and cruel and unusual punishments. The military tribunals will constitute one of the most fundamental altering of our constitutional order since the founding of our nation. And it's being done without even the semblance of a constitutional amendment.
Go vote for your Dims!
Republicans 53 Democrats 12 = 65 votes
An interesting juxtaposition: one of Obama's key staffers (named Buffy Wicks) is a co-founder of Wake-Up WalMart, a nonprofit dedicated to forcing WalMart to change its inhumane business practices, including substandard wages and lack of health care. On the other hand, Hillary Clinton herself served on WalMart's board of directors.
I think that largely sums up the key difference between the players behind these two campaigns.
Cynthia707 March 7th, 2008 8:36 pm
Never underestimate the ability of Democrats to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory@!