Bikedude:

I'm not sure I understand.

Forget politics - look at the bare facts

I and my family have farmed on a piece of land for centuries and Europe and America decide to relocate their outcasts to my land, ignoring we are already here.
I fight to keep my farm from the interlopers.

I'm the aggressor? What don't I understand?

RIDICULOUS ARGUMENTS

This "scholar" is one of many who avoid the obvious. He makes the constant claim that Israel is the bad guy because they only lost five citizens while 100 Palestinians were killed. I have a simple solution to all the wails of suffering from Gaza - STOP SHOOTING MISSLES AT ISRAEL!

Does anyone in the US think for a minute that if Cuba began lobbing similiar missles at Miami and it only killed 5 people, and the US launched an immediate counterattack, the world would condemn the US because it killed more Cubans? Isrealis don't strap bombs on the backs of children and send them into Palestinian coffee shops.

The writer and most of the comments above reflect the demented thinking. Israel has NEVER said its goal is to eliminate every Arab from the Middle East. But Hamas and its ilk continue to adovocate the complete destruction of Israel. Until they abandon that criminal pledge, Israel has every right to fight back and inflict as much damage as possible. Perhaps the citizens of Gaza should stop allowing terrorists to hide their missle launches in their bedrooms. If they don't want to be attacked, stop allowing terrorists to use your home as a base for attacks.

The PLO lost any respect at all when they received almost everything they every dreamed of in 2000 when Arafat came to the US to meet Clinton and discuss peace. Instead of rising above his terrorist background and becoming a statesman, Arafat walked away. The Palestinians will accept nothing less than total destruction of Israel. That position is irrational and untenable. As long as they continue to support that policy, they will continue to suffer the consequences of their agression.

Stop shooting missles, stop terroristic bombings of Israel and renounce the destruction of the country. That's how this stops.

I would argue strongly (and have done so on my blog) that Israel has corrupted America's soul by some very clever machinations.

America is partly but not entirely to blame. The American media is largely controlled by pro-Israel apologists and they are also in influential positions in many government branches and think-tanks.

What is happening is Gaza will continue. Israel will use force to get rid of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip first then those living in the West Bank.

They will get a Greater Israel by any means and will use America to help them achieve it.

www.dangerouscreation.com

kivals:

"By consistently throwing the awesome weight of the US behind Israel, no matter the circumstances, the US has corrupted Israel's soul and turned its leading policymakers into monsters."

I think it's the other way around or at least a two-way street of corrupted souls and monster policy makers. Bush, Cheney or Rice & Ohlmert & many of his Zionist cohorts, I'd say equivalently spiritually and morally bankrupt.

peace ...

oeace ,,,

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." By consistently throwing the awesome weight of the US behind Israel, no matter the circumstances, the US has corrupted Israel's soul and turned its leading policymakers into monsters.

The Bush Administration continues with its Menachean world view--all is black and white, there are only the children of light and the children of darkness. The author is right it is time to regard Hamas as an opportunity and not an opponent.

Israel has been seduced by the Dark Side of The Force... total security through total dominance.

If it were not for U.S. weapons and money they would be living in peace with their Arab neighbors today.

It's never too late.

I have a question for the group. Please answer honestly.

Assume the following:

Israel withdraws all the way back to the 1967 borders and the old city of Jerusalem is given international status (for example: under UN control).

Question:

If terror attacks and rocket attacks continue ... does Israel have the right to retaliate? And what should their goals be if they do retaliate.

***

I am asking this question because I know many Israelis and Palestinians who are VERY willing to sue for peace, but both are afraid that extremist groups would not stop attacking since their credo is to "Drive the Jews in the sea"

When did the USS Cole become a hospital ship?

whatfools: you took the links right out of my mind - thanks.

Who knows. That nuclear reactor at Diamona with the big crack in it could blow at any time.

According to one of their leaders...(can't remember whom at the moment) "Palestinians are beasts on two legs...."

The Isreali are racists to the core,,,

Here it is:

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."

-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

Well if Israel recognizes its neighbours as animals--then are you saying its OK to treat non humans viciously? That's corrupt ethics.

If we had animal rights everyone would benefit. The problem with israel is that it regards its people as superior to others.

Human supremacy myths are the problem.

Get rid of them any everyone will benefit(humans and non humans).
As long as we make distinctions there will always be I zionist idiots.

USS Liberty
Sabra and Chatila
The Diary of Rachael Corrie
http://electronicintifada.net/

Holocaust must be habit forming.

Meanwhile, urgently send a hospital ship to anchor off the coast of Gaza!

Meanwhile, urgently send a hospital ship to anchor off the coast of Gaza!

The Israelis may have already sealed their own fate, for the inevitable decay of their rotten anti-life policies that they promulgate, have a terrible prognosis for the future.

Even Nazi Germany continued to pull upon the heart strings of its citizens' love of 'Fatherland' country, as they spiraled into the last days - for what can Israeli's claim ?

We have no compunction against killing babies wholesale, and committing mass atrocities and genocide.

¿ We deserve to survive ?

Namaste

The last paragraph says it all. If Israel wants peace, which they have REJECTED numerous times, they would have ended the illegal occupation and recognize their neighbors as human beings, not animals.

But since these so-called jews (Khazars really) are still blood thirsty and greedy for more land, they will reject every and all peace. And if anyone tries to criticize these bastards, they will pull the anti-semite card and the Western world will cower with their tails between their legs.

It will do everyone some good by googling Benjamin Freedman and read the speech he gave in 1961. It would explain a lot of things.

Silly Bikedude,

Once again, ignoring the frame that surrounds the entire conflict - OCCUPATION. When the occupation ends, the rockets end.

From the International Herald Tribune of 2/26:

"A report commissioned by the United Nations suggests that Palestinian terrorism is the "inevitable consequence" of Israeli occupation and laws that resemble South African apartheid — a claim Israel rejected Tuesday as enflaming hatred between Jews and Palestinians.
The report by John Dugard, independent investigator on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for the U.N. Human Rights Council, will be presented next month, but it has been posted on the body's Web site.
In it, Dugard, a South African lawyer who campaigned against apartheid in the 1980s, says "common sense ... dictates that a distinction must be drawn between acts of mindless terror, such as acts committed by al-Qaida, and acts committed in the course of a war of national liberation against colonialism, apartheid or military occupation."
While Palestinian terrorist acts are to be deplored, "they must be understood as being a painful but inevitable consequence of colonialism, apartheid or occupation," writes Dugard, whose 25-page report accuses the Jewish state of acts and policies consistent with all three.
He cited checkpoints and roadblocks restricting Palestinian movement to house demolitions and what he terms the "Judaization" of Jerusalem.
"Acts of terror against military occupation must be seen in historical context," Dugard says. "This is why every effort should be made to bring the occupation to a speedy end. Until this is done, peace cannot be expected, and violence will continue."

There is no occupation. That's completely made up by the media and the Palestinians. Gaza has chosen their path, the path of Hamas. They have no one to blame but themselves.

The Chosen People? Holy Smoke!

Moses Was High on Drugs, Israeli Researcher Says
Psychedelic Cocktail May Explain Vision of the Burning Bush, Professor Says
By SIMON MCGREGOR-WOOD
JERUSALEM, March 5, 2008 —

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4392361&page=1

#
illumineer March 5th, 2008 8:03 pm

"There is no occupation. That's completely made up by the media and the Palestinians. Gaza has chosen their path, the path of Hamas. They have no one to blame but themselves."

It is attitudes like this that, combined with the inhumane brutality of the OCCUPATION, are creating a swelling of world opinion against Israel.

This man says that they have no one to blame but themselves. Well remember..that knife cuts both ways. When Israel is reduced to a pile of rubble and it's people find themselves with no country in the world willing to "accept their kind" (again), we will not have pity for you. Instead, we will just quote you in your infinite wisdom:

"They have no one to blame but themselves".

jfc:

It's not an "attitude", it's a FACT. Repeat - THERE IS NO OCCUPATION. Just people like you perpetuating the myth. Israel is NOT going to just disappear, or be "reduced to a pile of rubble". Neither is Palestine. So unless Hamas is removed by the Palestinians left in Gaza, and on their own accord (until then, Israel will have to do it), and the rockets finally stop, the madness will continue. Israel must be secure, and made to feel that way, before any of the above will happen.

Otherwise, yes, they WILL have no one to blame but themselves.

Remember to look at a map of Israel today as in 4 MORE years it will include Iraq. The chosen ones are above the law.

You're actually technically quite correct, illumineer.

Those continued killing sprees that the IDF conducts into Gaza are only intermittent short term control of land.

Call it what you will, the illegal and unhuman acts committed against the civilian population of Gaza is a war crime. The civilians were not asked for their permission to lob rockets, yet all IDF actions are against babies and children.

Hamas has constantly called for a truce, The mayor of Sderot has called for a truce but Israel keeps bombing. The Gazans feel so helpless in the face of this onslaught that trying anything to attempt to return in kind is accepted.

The 1st rockets were a direct result of unwarranted IDF terrorism of Gaza as well as cutting off critical supplies. One too many emergency cases died at a checkpoint before the rockets were launched.

An occupation in the strictest sense, no, illumineer. After all what jailer wants to live with the prisoners in a concentration camp, which is what Gaza has become.

A crime against humanity is what it is.

May Allah have mercy on you and your kind. You'll need it.

2000 years ago these Jewish Butchers lived in Palestine.

But for the last 50 generations, 1200 years, Palestinian Arabs have lived in Palestine.

Now the Murdering, Torturing Nazi-Jews want ALL of Palestine for their own (GREED) so they are trying to murder their way to that goal.

I saw a video yesterday of several IDF soldiers holding down two Palestinian prisoners in an open field and carefully breaking their shoulders, pulverizing them with large rocks while they were on the ground in the sun.

Babykillers. Child-torturers (Khiam). Murderers.

Khiam to you illumineer-go torture an infant.

It is very upsetting to me whenever an individual claims that it is the Israelis who are ALWAYS innocent victims in regards to Palestinians. That just makes my blood boil! Why does an individual side with Israeli/Zionist/Jewish people ummmmm...in ANYTHING?! I do not understand. What makes an Israeli superior to a Palestinian? Answer that question for me please, those who believe that Israelis are ALWAYS innocent victims. Why do these people side with the Israelis and give sympathy to them while viewing Palestinians as sub-human...seriously? Ummmm...could it be the fact that Jewish people invented Judaism/Christianity in which both of these faiths claim that the Jewish people are the "chosen people" of God? Of course such a claim will be made by most Jews and Christians. Every culture believes that their corresponding deity views said culture as the greatest group of people to grace planet Earth, but that fact does not necessarily mean that it is true in the grand scheme of things.

Or could it be that what makes an Israeli superior to a Palestinian is that men wear yamakas and have beards and that both male and female Israelis have big noses? Is that what Israeli/Zionist supporters believe? Again, I am just curious about why one would give unconditional support to Israelis.

"The Jew has never been a nomad, but always a parasite, battening on the substance of others. If he occasionally abandoned regions where he had hitherto lived he did not do it voluntarily. He did it because from time to time he was driven out by people who were tired of having their hospitality abused by such guests. Jewish self-expansion is a parasitic phenomenon, since the Jew is always looking for new pastures for his race. But this has nothing to do with nomadic life as such; because the Jew does not ever think of leaving a territory which he has once occupied. He sticks where he is with such tenacity that he can hardly be driven out even by superior physical force. He expands into new territories only when certain conditions for his existence are provided therein; but even then, unlike the nomad, he will not change his former abode."
- Adolf Hitler

An example of bittersweet truth for humankind to remember.

I find it very interesting that no-one is willing to answer the question from my previous post.

I see a lot of hateful rhetoric on this site. Is that what Common Dreams is about? Hate? I guess its fine to complain and moan about the 'Evil Jews' ... it's a perfect example of how a group that is supposed to be devoted to helping everyone has been hijacked by bigots.

Common Dreams' Credo: "To inform. To inspire. To ignite change for the common good"

What happened? ... When did the dream become a nightmare of hate?

***************************************
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I have a question for the group. Please answer honestly.

Assume the following:

Israel withdraws all the way back to the 1967 borders and the old city of Jerusalem is given international status (for example: under UN control).

Question:

If terror attacks and rocket attacks continue … does Israel have the right to retaliate? And what should their goals be if they do retaliate.

----------------------

I am asking this question because I know many Israelis and Palestinians who are VERY willing to sue for peace, but both are afraid that extremist groups would not stop attacking since their credo is to "Drive the Jews in the sea"

David_78, of course they do. All people have the right to self-defense. I don't know why that is even a question. I also think the Palestinians have a right to self-defense too. I am not sure that what Israel does to the Palestinians would qualify as self-defense under any sane definition. And many of us dislike the spin that is constantly being repeated that it is only Israel that retaliates, and only Israel that has to be recognized, and only Israel that is the victim, and only Israel that has a right to exist, and only Israel that has the right to self-defense. I think it ought to go both ways.

Just turn it around, switch the names of the parties and see what your reaction is. I would be surprised if you would feel comfortable with Palestinians strafing and bombing Jewish civilians in a walled ghetto. I know I wouldn't.

Even centuries after the initial conquest and ethnic cleansing conducted by Arab invasions in the 630s, Arabs did not make up a majority of the population of the what became Palestine until the Mamluke era in the thirteenth century. The Mamlukes themselves were Turkish slaves who murdered their masters, took over Egypt, marched their army into what was then referred to simply as 'The Holy Land', and conducted some ethnic cleansing of their own. Christians, especially any descendants of recent arrivals from Europe, Crusaders, "Franks", were forced out of their homes. Most fled west to Cyprus, Greece, Italy, and western Europe. Muslim Arabs moved into the abandoned farmsteads and villages which their Turkish masters allowed them to do so long as they remained tenant farmers of themselves, a situation which remained unchanged until the end of World War I.

I put the blame almost entirely on the Arabs themselves, especially Saudi Arabia, but including every one of the 23 Arab nations, many of which see fit to important literally millions of indentured labourers from India and the Philippines to work as their maids and construction workers in the Gulf, but have no use for Palestinians except as Orcs, fighting for the One Ring.

Replies to my post reveal you to be closet Nazis yourselves. Is Israel partially responsible for their predicament? No doubt. Is the constantly shifting U.S. foreign policy an enabler of some of their behavior? Sure it is. But there's nothing that can be done about past history (i.e. Israel's formation); Israel is there to stay. Israel would like nothing better than a peaceful Palestinian state next to them and I feel eventually Jerusalem will become an international city, protected by its very nature as a holy site for three major religions. But until the Palestinians in the Gaza recognize that Hamas/Hezbollah is not the answer and their determination to get rid of Israel once and for all will never happen, once again, they have only themselves to blame.

So keep on hating Israel, Nazi-boys. Nothing will ever change with that attitude.

As long as the media keeps reporting that Palestinians are less than human, while Israelis have the right to kill anyone they look upon as a threat, nothing will ever change.

http://www.ryanhartman.wordpress.com

david_78
I will answer your question at the end of my post. But there is something you do not understand. Whether there is peace or not does not depend on the Public opinion of Jews and Palestinians. These population are at the mercy of the political leaders or the US and Israel government. There will be no peace until these leaders want there to be peace. They are the ones who are standing in the way. People believe in myths. They believe in those myths because our leaders are the people who decide what we(the majority of the population) believe in. I discussed much of this in a post the other day about the Vanity Fair article.

William Kristol's father Irving Kristol, the "godfather" of American neoconservativism, established a hierarchy of truth. "There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people," he once said in an interview. "There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy."

I made several long posts on this topic the other day.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/04/7450/
This is one of them but I have more...
Vanity fair broke a taboo here…that is what makes it so good. Americans are not supposed to hear from Palestinians. Their voices are to be silenced here. Otherwords the average joe might start thinking for himself. Americans are kept in the dark so that when things happen in the world…they won't know why until our political leaders tell them…that way rather than hearing the story from the participants perspective (the people actual engaged in the crisis). They believe what our leaders want them to believe. That Fatah was just going about its business…and the US goverment was just going about its business…and suddely these savage barbarian Hamas people from out of nowhere staged a bloody revolt. And the Fox news responds with outrage…and declares…What will our government to do stop this!!! When or course they caused the whole catastrophe!!! This is the whole purpose of information control.

I specifically remember the New York times not printing Ramzi Yousef's statement at his sentencing hearing because it "would give a voice" to terrorism. Enough people complained that they wound up printing at the back of section B at a later date. I mean after all…why would anybody want to know why an Arab man would want to blow up the twin towers…its not like they would try it again or anything…oh…whoops…forgot.
http://www.wanniski.com/showarticle.asp?articleid=1619

What you and I believe don't matter. We don't have power and control of the situation. The Israeli and US governments do. Our leaders engage in conflicts because they think they can reach favorable results for their perceived interests at any given time. They could really care less if a few rockets kill a few Israels...that just makes it easy to stir up emotions and get the public behind them. Our political leaders really do think they can control the world to suit their interests.

Now to answer your question...which is irrevalnt...because our leaders aren't seeking peace at this time...It would be relatively simple for the Israelis to achieve peace. It was nearly achieved at the end of the Clinton term...and would have been if it wasn't for our short sighted politicians. It was easier then because the Palestinians were led by Arafat. Who all the Palestinians respected...he was able to jail the more militant members of Hamas and achieve a relative calm for couple years as they tried to negotiate a peace. With US help the PA built police stations and received training. Palestinian society started recovering for the first time in decades. Our Israeli and US politicians failed in the peace process. Pressure from Likud caused an impass on creating a continuous travelable (without going through Israeli roadblocks and border chekcs) state for the Palestinians in the West Bank. The Israelis wanted to keep control of large swaths of land in the West bank for water resource reasons. This would basically break up the West Bank into several strips of land with Israel controlling movement between them. When Arafat wouldn't agree our press, our politicians, Likud, etc. told a bunch of lies and created the myth the Israel had no partner for peace. They said the period of calm was just an excuse to start rearming and that they were never serious...well after Sharon came into power the first thing he did was destroy all the police stations and target the PAs security forces. Then all control was lost by Fatah and there was no Palestinian restraining force left for the more radical elements of Palestinian society...even if they wanted to. Naturally violence has gone up. That is a stategic move by Likud though. They knew this would happen and they would by able to demonize the Palestinians and not have to worry about anymore stupid peace deals. The Likud party is just where they want to be. They depend on the violence for their support.

If the Israeli and US government wanted peace this is what they would do...They would take up negotiations right were they left off at the end of Clinton's term. Israel would make concessions to have a contiguous state in the West Bank. The US would strong arm Jordan and Egypt to put troops in the West Bank and Gaza strip to help with security. Israel is totally against this because they would have to give up power and control. They couldn't just march into Palestinian territory anytime they wanted to...they would have to be commited to peace. Foreign troops are necessary because Arafat is gone and most of the Palestinians see Abbas as an American stooge. They will not accept his rule. As Palestinian society starts to recover(as it did during the last serious peace initiative) violence would subside.

May Allah have mercy on you and your kind. You'll need it.

There is no Allah. There is no YHWH. Mercy comes from humans, and very, very rarely.

I would like to respond to the question posed by illumineer.

You posit that if Israel returns to the 1967 boundaries it should have the right to retaliate against Palestinian rocket attacks. Why should Israel return to the 1967 boundaries? Why not the boundaries set by the 1948 U.N. Mandate? Why not the levels of Jewish immigration set by the Balfour Declaration? Many Jews do not even believe that a Jewish homeland is even justified, why should the Palestinians?

Which Jewish "state" are the Palestinians to recognize? Were the Palestinians ever offered the right of self-determination? No, not in 1919 or 1948. Not ever.

Don't blather on about ancient ME history, Jews "divine right", or the Holocaust. All are irrelevant.

The issue is simply illegal immigration of Jews into Palestinian lands which began in the late 19th century when Palestine was ruled by the Ottomans. Even then there was a violent backlash, does that surprise anyone?

Illegal Jewish immigration massively and blatantly exceeded the agreed upon levels set by the British Mandate of 1919. When the British tried to halt the flood, Jewish paramilitary and terrorist organizations, the Haganah, Irgun and the Stern Gang turned on the British, resulting in the bombing of the King David Hotel (British HQ) and the assassination of the Viceroy Lord Moyne, and many other terrorist acts by the Zionists. The leader of Haganah, Menachem Begin went on to become Israel PM. So much for Israelis' present day condemnation of Palestinian terrorism.

Despite the fantasies of Theodor Herzl and the clever negotiations of Chaim Weissman at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference, there is no rational justification for the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.

As to the "right" of Israel to "retaliate". Presumably you imply that a massive military operation by the IDF is justified. Such a response would only be justified by an existential threat to the existence of Israel. No one in their right mind could characterize the puny rocket attacks as such a threat, despite Zionists ad nauseum whining. Rocket attacks should be dealt with by the Palestinian police forces, with the assistance of the Israeli police, if necessary. I'm sure the Palestinians would deal with such "terrorist" acts if they saw some benefit arising from their cooperation. Like a fair and just solution to the basic issues, which would have to BEGIN with the Israeli withdrawal from the ILLEGALLY occupied Palestinian territories.

david_78

Let me try:
Suppose two states, Israel, on 1967 borders, and Palestine. Rockets fired from Palestinian territory land in Israel. (Presumedly,rockets not fired by the Palestinian state)
So, Israeli state gets in touch with Palestinian state. The Palestinian state then has a policing problem, and deals with it.
If they have an extradition agreement, that might kick in as well.
Property damage through the civil courts.

All hypothetical...but yr question is hypothetical as well.

I can't see a two state working, because the settlements and all the attendant infrastructure (highways, water control and so on) make a Palestinian state impossible...only a state on paper, not reality.

I can't see a single state because Israel has nukes, and the west will not allow Palestinians to have any part in governing the disposition of those nukes.

(So...coming up with a synthesis out that has me buffaloed...unfortunately, when we are buffaloed, we tend to figure the only choice is to pick up weapons...)

Israel would like nothing better than a peaceful Palestinian state next to them

-illumineer March 6th, 2008 6:57 am

How I wish that were true, but there is much evidence to the contrary.

How many times have we heard apologists for Israel's violence claiming that "there never was any such country as Palestine"?

...until the Palestinians in the Gaza recognize that Hamas/Hezbollah is not the answer and their determination to get rid of Israel once and for all...

-illumineer March 6th, 2008 6:57 am

Another canard.

Is refusing to recognize a government the same thing as destroying a country? After all, doesn't the US refuse to recognize the democratically elected Palestinian government?

There are many political parties in the middle east that advocate ethnic cleansing, and most of these seem to be in Israel. These are not all fringe parties, either, and the presence in high political offices of such blatant racists as Effi Eitam, Rehavam Ze'evi and Avigdor Lieberman does not speak well of the voters of Israel. Why is Hamas so frequently and staunchly criticized when its Jewish counterparts are given a free pass in the western press?

Why would Israel, or any other country for that matter, recognize Gaza when it's being run by a terrorist organization? You're not making sense! Sure there are radical elements inside Israel; there's radical elements in every country on earth - so what? Just like every other country, they're in the distinct minority in Israel. Otherwise, they'd be running the country (and the U.S. President would be Pat Robertson).

As for all this talk of history, get a grip! There's NOTHING that can be done about past history! Everyone can mental masturbate all they want, but we have what we have. Whoever is to blame for all this just doesn't matter anymore. I'm not sure if we'll see real change in either Israel or Palestine for at least a generation; that's just the cold hard facts. Meanwhile, the U.S. goes through the paces of making like we care when we know full well it will take a sea change, or a visionary leader, to see both countries through to genuine peace and co-existance, an Amwar Sadat perhaps.

Until then, don't hold your collective breaths. Instead, see the big picture, and the timeframe it's going to take for everyone to truly get sick of it all, on both sides.

SetYouFree

It is impossible to arrive at a state of peace with the recipe of blame.

Let's just assume you are completely correct or justified with these statements:
* Many Jews do not even believe that a Jewish homeland is even justified, why should the Palestinians?
* Don't blather on about ancient ME history, Jews "divine right", or the Holocaust. All are irrelevant.
* The issue is simply illegal immigration of Jews into Palestinian lands which began in the late 19th century when Palestine was ruled by the Ottomans.
* there is no rational justification for the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.

This is pretty much a basic archetypal argument of those who deny the right of Israel to exist.

Countervailing arguments of equal and oppositve force are made just as often.

So where does it get us? It's a recipe for hate and blame. For those too unenlightened to see that we are all basically the same, unable to see that no matter which "tribe" or "race" or even "species" we were born into, we are all deserving of abundant compassion: this is just a recipe for hating our enemy more than we love our brother and sister.

The question is not what Israel or Palestine and her leaders should do to bring about happiness for all involved: the question is what we as individuals should do. If we continue to stoke the flames of anger, then we will in a significant we be complicit in bringing misery to those directly affected.

A military solution and violence will only invite retaliation. What absurd a notion is the notion of proportionate retaliation! There can be no such thing. This conflict since the establishment of the State of Israel is an archetype of all confict. Its' a chicken or egg argument: who fired the first salvo. Each will inherently argue that the other did.

So what should we do: stoke the flames of anger? Is that going to help anyone? It might help you to direct your anger for your own personal disappointments in your own life and project it onto some hypothetical enemy. It's a fabulous distraction.

Imagine for a moment that we really cared about the interests of the individuals who are broadbrushed collectively as Israelis and Palestinians. There are millions of people we are talking about here. To call them Palestinians or Israelis is unavoidable in this discussion, but it dehumanises every single one of them and polarises them as if they are two opposing parties. (This mindset in itself entrenches conflicts of this sort.)

What would be their lifestyles right now in this following situation? Imagine if from 60 years ago instead of all the money that the governments and private "benefactors" of USA, Iran, USSR, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Syria and other nations had dedicated to military spending - hundreds if not thousands of billions of dollars - if all this had been given to the people concerned for lifestyle enhancing things such as housing, health, education, food and industry.

Imagine the standard of living that each of the individuals concerned would now enjoy!

So many lives lost and destroyed, so much misery, fear, confusion and anger because this had not occurred.

So who is responsible for that? Historically, we are all responsible. So long as we fan the flame of anger and blame, we continue to be responsible. The quickest path to happiness for every concerned is the path of forgiveness and compassion. Have we not all experienced this in our own personal domestic lives. An argument with a partner - when we hold on to the argument and to our anger and when we are not prepared to speak to our partner with love until they apologise - often the argument lingers because they feel the same in reverse towards us, that we should apologise. Sometimes though, we are wise and we think let's just move on - this argument is stupid anyway. Then quickly we can love our partner again and our day becomes happy and light.

Of course, such a comparison may seem to trivialise the problem because there have been so many deaths, and because there continues to be so much misery, grief and suffering by so many.

Nevertheless, war (whether characterised as a military strike or an act of terrorism) is insane. The game of blame only fans those flames of anger, and anger will only continue to encourage individuals and organisations to use military means in pursuit of what they convince themselves to be justice. More billions of dollars will continue to be wasted on this destructive path that might have otherwise have been spent on improving lifestyles.

If the super powers of the world, including the USA, Russia, China, the EU and the Arab nations including all spiritual leaders united in demanding both sides to immediately cease all military offensives the moral foundation and impetus for violent activity would weaken and so too would the will of people to engage in it. If the budgets were devoted towards lifestyle enhancements instead, within five years we could surely have radically improved the standards of living of everyone affected.

Expressions of racial or nationalist hatred by all of us sitting on the sidelines of this arena makes us accountable for the casualties that are going on. We do it with arrogance and ignorance as though we are justified in doing so when in fact all we are doing is blindly venting our own internal existential frustrations at life while believing it is about the subject we claim to be authoritatively discussing.

Hate begets hate, violence begets violence.

Sure there are radical elements inside Israel; there's radical elements in every country on earth - so what? Just like every other country, they're in the distinct minority in Israel.

-illumineer March 6th, 2008 7:02 pm

If by "distinct minority" you mean less than 50%, there's a chance that you may be correct, but there is clearly plenty of support in Israel for the idea of forcibly expelling the Palestinians. Depending on how the question is framed, recent polls consistently show that around half of Israeli Jews are in favor of ethnic cleansing, although typically euphemisms are used, such as "state backed Arab emigration".

Viewed in this light, the Israel's collective punishment tactics, such as cutting off fuel, electricity, and essential supplies to Gaza, starts to make strategic sense. It's not going to deter those who use violence, but it may very well convince many ordinary Palestinian citizens to pack up and move to another country, and that is quite possibly the intention.

MMMOOO … … … and LOVE begets L O V E -- Your words are kind and insightful, but we need to go much further.

Forgiveness trumps revenge, reverence for ALL life trumps any blasted scraggly old "religion" of old men shooting it out in the desert. Murderers deserve prison confinement, regardless of illegitimate gov'tal sanctions or aberrant apology.

Wake up PEOPLE, and join the 21th century, where KILLING is an assault upon ALL people of the world, not only the participants who directly suffer in this.

¿ And what of the future generations ?

Namste

Hamas will make peace with Israel when the nation of Israel has been destroyed, and not before.

The charter of Hamas calls for the destruction of the nation of Israel.

The charter of Hamas calls for the destruction of the nation of Israel.

It's a very inconvenient fact for people like Mr. Seumas Milne.

Mr. Seumas Milne says Israel can make peace with Hamas by giving away a little territory. And yet...

The charter of Hamas calls for the destruction of the nation of Israel.

Once again you guys do not understand the nature of the conflict. It doesn't matter what we believe. We are not "all responsible". It is not "us" who make the decisions about war and peace. Israel purposefully destroyed the police stations and targeted the Palestinian Authority's police units when Sharon came to power. The Likud party and the US government decided since Arafat refused their "generous offer" that there was now going to be no peace. Even if the Palestinian leaders wanted peace...there is nothing they can do. The means to control the mass of the people have been taken away from them. Although Fatah was corrupt the people still respected Arafat. He was able to jail the extremist elements during the peace talks. He knew who they were and where to find them. We don't. Abbas does not have that kind of standing. If we wanted to have peace (which we don't) we would have to negotiate with Jordan and Egypt and probably pay them tons of money...on top of paying Israel off to except peace. Israel doesn't want peace. They want the water resources in the West Bank more than they want peace. The terrorist strikes (which the Palestinians couldn't stop if they wanted to because they have no credible policing powers) offer the perfect excuse not to persue peace. The collatoral damage of a few of your citizens in terrorist attacks is a small price to pay if you are an Israeli politician. Not only is it a small price to pay but it is necessary to keep the "moral highground" so to speek. Power and Control. Leaders decide if there is war or peace. Get a clue people. By way of deception...thou shalt do war.

TOTALLY AGREE with "BIKEDUDE"...rest of you stop looking to kick the dog + use common sense!!

JDH -- You wouldn't even treat your neighbor's loud and disgustingly murderous dog as bad as the Palestinians are getting it. Your common sense is as far out-of-sight as your ethics, please come down to Earth for a change and talk with real people.

Some day when you have experienced extreme deprivation and continued merciless assault for years, your opinion might have some basis. If it's so cool there, why not take a visit yourself, and bring your Mom along to educate her on your "modern" convenience expedience based ethics? I'm sure she'll be so proud of you.

Namaste

The day will come when Israel will have to face it's neighbors without the protection of the United States. When that day comes they had better have earned some credit in the arab world because 5 million Jews cannot possibly defy 300 million angry arabs.

Modern military might is dependent upon one thing, oil. Without petroleum you cannot fuel tanks and fly fighter aircraft or make nitrate explosives. There is no oil in Israel and the supplies to the United States will start to choke down. Without oil all the fancy drip irrigation feeding Israeli fields breaks down and they have to look to the sea for imported food. Any Israeli who thinks that the US is going to protect it's shipping for the next 100 years is insane. The US is bankrupt and entering a depression.

What are they going to do when the oil runs out? Sit behind their walls and starve? One day the nuclear blackmail game they are playing will be called and then will they play Masada once more but with the whole nation?

Hamas doesn't have to kill Israeli's. They will turn on themselves.

A still, small voice sayeth: all politicians in Palestine (that includes Israel), are enemies of their own people.