Hi,

The US military is definitely planning a future confrontation with China.

Here is a link to the web site of an organization that tracks US military planners development of space-based weapons - "Global Network against Nuclear Power and Weapons in Space":

www.space4peace.org/

Check out their reporting and analysis.

The Chinese have always been, and still are, businessmen, not warriors. They had been trading with SE Asia, including the Philippines where I now live, for hundreds of years before the Spanish, Americans, and Japanese came as imperial conquerers. The USA is following the tradition of the Roman and British empires using military force to enrich itself. It has done so since its inception. Like its predecessors it is rotting away from moral and economic decay as a result. That is why I left. I trust the Chinese as superpower far more than the US.

It's no wonder that the Bush/Cheney dollar is falling like a stone. I'll put my 'stimulus' tax rebate into Euros since it's all borrowed money that must be repaid.

They have to keep spending to keep the economy going. Manufacturing enemies is as important as manufacturing bombs.

But, does anyone really think that the US has any intention of paying China back all the money we've borrowed? Wouldn't it be easier (in the demented minds of our shadowy overlords) to just kill them all?

I think that they are ramping up to attack China.

Have we reason for ANY hope? Or could Edgar Cayce have been correct that we're the reincarnation(s) of ancient Atlantis?

Is anyone of us interested in learning about a quiet world-wide movement to reverse our planetary destruction and turn it toward PEACE? Please take a chance: log into Sathya Sai Baba's official homepage in India, then click onto Radio Sai.

Love, Jeevee

"That giant sucking sound is your pockets being emptied"

On the mark, COMarc - the end of the putative "Cold War" ended nothing, in particular and especially the spending of cold cash...

"These words were writ upon the rocket ramps: all the world is our concentration camp..." -- Crazy Bird

I agree with COMarc's comment above. The demonization of China and Russia is necessary to justify this form of corporate predator welfare. Most Americans are such simpletons they do not understand that the Dalai Lama would be considered just another religious fruitcake if he were not helpful in the propaganda against China (note how the useful anti-communist Pope was portrayed as a god-like figure but the current Pope is hardly mentioned). And the same goes for ex-chess champion Kasparov in the propaganda war regarding Russia.

As the US has evolved into a fascist state, the government's goal has become to reduce resistance to the domination and plunder by the corporatocracy through propaganda designed, by well-paid sophists, to provide the illusion of "freedom" and "democracy" at home, and to demonize groups and nations that stand in the way (which also involves glorifying dissidents of such nations). All as Mr. Orwell imagined.

They don't care about China or Russia. The goal is to spend the money. Their biggest fear is that someone might realize we shouldn't have any enemies in this world that would need us to buy any of this stuff and cut the budget. We might spend this money on roads and bridges and schools and hospitals or other stuff that actually makes life better around here. That's their worst nightmare.

So, if they could claim with a straight face that Lichtenstein was the next great threat and that we needed a new aircraft carrier and new planes and new destroyers to counter the evil Lichtenstein menace, they'd do it in a heart beat.

Its all about the $$. That's our $$, and they want it. If you want them to have our $$, vote Democrat or vote Republican. It don't make know difference, both are happy to take our money and give it to the arms makers for billion dollar cost plus projects with lots of nice juicy cost overruns.

That giant sucking sound is your pockets being emptied.

Notice that the Dems are leading the charge to spend even MORE! There's been little or no effort to trim any of these budgets. Year after year, the Dems all line up and approve the full amount. Or, if there's any discussion its about adding even more money than want the Pentagon asked for.

And if you read Obama's website, its full of promises to expand the size of the Army and Marines (that's more $$), more training for our troops (that's more $$), and to modernize weaponry (that's more $$). So Obama is basically promising to do everything in this article and then promising to spend even more on top of it.

That's what you get when you vote Democrat. Please stop!

A classic case of creating threat to support the need to spend billions on the new weapons they want to throw our money at.

They can't uses their 'global war on terror' to support the need for these super-duper fighter planes and ships, so they have to come up with another reason. But rest assured, the one thing they won't do is stop spending our money, so you can bet that for sure they'll always find some new reason.

This has been going on for ages. Certainly ever since the 'national security state' was formed after WWII. Remember the Kennedy-Nixon debates over a fictional 'missile-gap'? Or maybe the way the released records from the collapse of the Soviet Union revealed that they were massively over-estimating Soviet military spending to justify the big weapon programs of the 1980's.

We could cancel everyone of the weapons listed and still be just as safe.

Klare is a superb analyst. It's shocking that we can see this kind of spending on the military, post-Cold War. Notice that there is no caucus within the Democratic Party making a strong case for e.g. cutting the military budget in half. Ike's critique is leftist extremism, by today's standards.

If the U.S. were a embodied human being, then the diagnosis would be: severe paranoid schizophrenia. The target of all this spending is China, Russia, Venezeula, Iran, (insert list of all remaining nation-states on Earth as well as designated terrorist organizations or potentially-sympathetuc anti-war groups). They probably even have a plan to storm the Thomas Merton Center for Peace. Not with the F-22's however. Those are reserved for use against superpowers like Palestine.

China is not the target of all this spending. Russia is. Bush and the MIC is starting another cold war with Russia, not China. Putin has already publically stated this fact. And Europe, particularly Eastern Europe, is already in the cross hairs.

It's all about the oil folks. This will not change. The US will only fight to keep that black gold flowing in America's direction. The only threat that China poses is its rising demand for oil. And the fact that they are an economic powerhouse that is able to fund the US debt. China doesn't need to fight with bombs as long as they have dollars and US debt.

America long ago passed the tipping point where the jobs and monetary spin-offs of a permanent war economy outweighed the more abstract benefits of world peace, in the minds of many of its citizens.

For many of the poor, uneducated and now those with criminal records, the army beckons. While GM auto plant shifts and civilian manufacturing jobs are being terminated, I haven't heard of the nuclear/aeronautics/ammunition plants laying off too many workers.

what a mess

I agree with expatincebu about "trusting the Chinese more as a superpower than the US"..but I would add it is not just about the Chinese people being "business" oriented rather than "warriors"..but more to do with the Confucian ethic that still pervades the collective psyche. I live here in China..and I can tell you that although most Chinese can tolerate (except for a majority of CCP members-who actually wholeheartedly support) the incursions into Tibet and Xinjiang, but this is only because both places have historical connections as tributaries or even components of past Chinese dynasties, it is impossible to imagine the Chinese people getting excited about military incursions into far away lands like Iraq..for oil grabbing..the Chinese are still dealing with the effects of the Japanese invasion so many years ago..I think we don't need to be worrying about the "Chinese threat"..at most they will serve as a military counterbalance to American agression and hubris....the "threat" is an economic one..we need to strengthen our economy so it is not so easy for the Chinese to flood our markets with cheap goods...and we can get away from the "predatory lending" the Chinese and Japanese are engaging in by funding our Iraq fiasco!

I tend not to agree with Klare. The Chinese, I hope, will be too smart to get caught up in a military escalation, and will instead resolve any competition in the business playing field.

Some of the commentators above got it....that enemies need to be manufactured in order to maintain the US MIC. Oil may be a global enterprise, but also unnecessary. Oil is peanuts compared with manufacturing and selling weapons. That statement is sure to raise some skeptical eyebrows, but the world and the US does have now the technology and the will (advertising can easily win-over the oil-hungry public) to quickly adapt to an oil-free world.

I weep. Mankind is quickly nearing the end of it's time on this planet.

Paraphrasing Napoleon, "China, when it awakes, will shake the world. Let it sleep." It would appear that China has awakened and that the Pentagon need to come up with an enemy that does not engage in guerilla and asymetrical warfare (which it has shown a particular ineptitude in combatting). The introduction of China into the game of world politics provides a challenging dimension to an American foreign policy and military apparatus that has shown itself to be quite unwieldy in responding to change.

China today is very, very, nationalistic. It would not take much to whip up their people and convince them that the foreigners (Anglo-American) are trying to contain China and get them behind a war. Remember the Opium Wars, and they do. Like the US, they control their media. Unlike the US, their first choice is to achieve their objectives without using force, ala Sun Tzu.

Whomever controls the oil controls the world. Thats part of what 9/11 and Iraq/Afghanistan were about, rebuilding our defences (PNAC) and securing geostrategic resources, not to mention building the police state apparatus. Part of the reason for oil going from 20 to 104 dollars a barrel is to dampen developing nations growth and make alternatives economically viable for those with the technology to exploit it.

Other sources of cheap oil, or energy transport regions that may prompt conflict are Iran, Venezuela, Africa , Russia, and the Balkans. Africa is the subject of an intense battle between US and China over these resources.
In any area where genocide is mention, it is all about the oil.

And do not forget the SCO alliance of Russia and China with Iran having observer status. China and Russia have been given a choice. They will either be a partner in our globalist agenda where they will have a diminished role relative to their populations and economic potential. Or they will be a competitor, seeking to replace the declining Anglo-American empire with a Sino-Russian Empire. If it is the latter, there will be war. The military has no choice but to prepare for the worst case, and they are being given the funding to do so.

China is smart enough to play along for now, pretending to be a partner, building up their military, and perhaps they will distance themselves from Russia so we will focus our attention on them while they maintain a crypto Sino-Russia alliance.

It's all a game to those globalist elites who pretend to be Gods. The danger is that should a war be deemed necessary, some fruitcake will decide to go the first strike route, since China and Russia are not pushovers like Iraq or Afghanistan. That's a nuclear first strike. Estimates are we would only lose 20% of our population from the Soviet nuclear subs that retaliate, mostly in cities whose infrastructure is decaying anyways, and filled with undesirables (gays, poor, african americans). The big shots will be warned to head for the protected hills before a launch. There is no free lunch, and they might think the price is right.

Your pockets have already been emptied, so do not worry about the cost. Your share of the national debt is 30,000 dollars, and that does not include future liabilities that bring you to 180,000 dollars. But its all a hoax to keep you poor with taxes, interest, and inflation and justify no spending money on social welfare. Government can issue it's own fiat money, debt free to pay for it's military spending, health care, etc. In fact, Congress could wipe out all domestic government debt by minting a 6000 million dollar copper coins. Thats why they do not worry about China and other FCB's not using their excess dollars to buy our treasuries.

Just remember, we've outsourced almost all of our spare parts, computer boards, etc. to China, throwing our trained workforce into the street so the work can be done for pennies a day in Asia, mostly China. We get our aircraft sub-assemblies from them, The electronics that runs our missile controls, our IFF systems, our radar and on and on and on.

If I was a smart Chinese, I'd put some surprises into that stuff, perhaps to be activated by a satellite signal, to disable our systems during an attack. I would also analyze all of the stuff that I was having my fifteen cent a day laborers working on. That way, I could save money on super weapons R&D.

Face it, we've turned from a "can do" nation that was a world leader into a super corrupt third world banana republic dictatorship, dependent on the developed world for our sustenance. We just carry a big club and are willing to use it. If someone manages to break the club, we are history.

Doesn't it make you proud?

I believe China and Russia are as bad as our leaders say they are. Of course I also believe we're as bad as their leaders say we are.

The real question is: Will China continue to lend us the money to build up our weapons systems targeted against them?

Going to war with China would be about the dumbest thing anyone could think of. It's not just a country, it's a huge percentage of the entire world's population and, as MiMiCcs said, "China today is very, very, nationalistic. It would not take much to whip up their people and convince them that the foreigners (Anglo-American) are trying to contain China and get them behind a war."

Very true. And believe me, a war with China would have no winners. Not now or ever. Anyone who considers 'preparing' for that scenario should have their head examined and be put in a padded cell.

The progress we have made over the last century has been because we can learn so much from our experience.

Instead of beginning this century killing Asians in Philippines, we begin this century by killing Afghans and Iraqis.

Instead of building great arms caches so that we can grab our share of Africa, we are building great arms caches so that we can grab our share of Central Asia's fossil fuels.

Instead of keeping ahead of arms build ups in Japan and Germany, we are keeping ahead of arms build ups in China and India.

Instead of defending God and Empire from terrorists and criminal states, we are defending freedom and democracy form terrorists and criminal states.

...and this time, we will win, and that will be the final victory.

My dear friends, if you will only take a good look at yourselves from your own comments on this discussion board, you will find great wisdom which has escaped most of your own leaders in the Pentagon. One single thread of thought runs through your thinking and it is that it is avery bad idea to contirve a war of choice against China.

China is a peaceful nation and we are only interested to arm ourselves for defense and to manitain the respect for China as a great nation which she is whether you like it or not. China is not taking American jobs as you would like to call it because the USA can choose to produce the "cheap goods as most of you would like to call Chinese made products; and since it is produced by Americans with an average income of US$37,000 per year, these goods will not be called "CHEAP" anymore. Yes China sells its goods at a fraction of what it will cost the Americans to make for exact same stuff, but more than just money, China is IMPORTING AMERICAN POLLUTION into China. You have cheap goods and you have taken our CLEAN AIR AND CLEAN WATER. We know that this is the evil that we sup with the Americans to develop, but today China is well towards decoupling our economy from the USA. We now want the good life which our President says we want a moderately prosperous society.

We are still a long way from achieving that goal, but we are getting there. The USA need not worry about China taking your monopoly on unbridaled AGGRESSION. That is a business that we best leave it to the USA and you are just "not good" at it; the USA has lost every war of aggression that you have fought at. You have spent 3 trillion and a bit more if I might add in Iraq. You will be better off if you had spent it all at home.

The USA needs to know that in a war between China and the USA, there will be no winners; because it will end the world. I can only say that you Americans are just crazy because in spitr of all your fancy weapons, you get mauled in Iraq; why bother to spend 3 trillion and get nothing for it. Only in America !

Fighting and killing over scarce resources is difficult and costly, not to mention inhuman and criminal.

Negotiating for shared advantage or mutual benefit is also difficult and costly.

The first, spells death, suffering and the end of mankind. The second will leave vast resources for a mass global cleanup , a better environment, jobs, houses, medical care and a better life for everyone.

There are elements which want us to believe that permanent war is natural and inevitable. It is not. The same elements wish us to believe that we are overly idealistic in wanting, or establishing, a world of shared resources where everyone benefits, not just the few.

The sad thing is, we do have the wherewithal, we have the intelligence to do it, and the resources, but our systems favour the greedy, the murderous and the stupid.

Perhaps we ought to change our dream, and think differently, borrowing Steve Jobs' line, minus the bombs - which'll do us all in, rich and poor alike.

" Rebel Farmer March 5th, 2008 1:11 pm

China is not the target of all this spending. Russia is. Bush and the MIC is starting another cold war with Russia, not China. Putin has already publically stated this fact. And Europe, particularly Eastern Europe, is already in the cross hairs.

It's all about the oil folks. This will not change. ..."

TRUE, EVIDENTLY SO, AND Rebel Farmer beat me in terms of who'd say this first; but while I'll add that it's NOT solely for petroleum resources, but for all profitable natural resources, which sometimes involve "only" the extreme exploitation of cheap labour, i.e., economic slavery; as with Haiti, f.e.

The U.S. wars, overtly enough (never totally, for certainly and never in honest terms) and covertly, and along with its NATO ally pigs of war, for NATURAL RESOURCES(!); spanning resources of petroleum, mining, (fertile) land, fresh-water, ..., the material kind, and for least-of-least costly human labour.

Former USMC Major General Smedley Butler was definitely and ongoingly right in writing his book, ['WAR IS A RACKET'!]. I'll add that these wars are sometimes the military kind, method, while other cases are absent of military involvement, being "only" political and economic.

Anyway, for what Rebel Farmer says with respect to the USA (and therefore NATO) targetting (and long-term) Russia, and possibly China, but Russia first, if not solely; Ru. is believed by enough respectable analysts to be the first if not really sole target, and there are plenty of good articles on this posted at www.globalresearch.ca (and probably other sites that I'm just not yet familiar with, not in this topic resource sense anyway).

So far, Russia being target seems to be credible, for US+NATO encroachment via their militarization of Eastern European and former USSR states, and Russia being much more known for richness in natural resources, this sure indicates Russia's the more likely target; as compared to China. They're both allied, however, and through alliances that can be read about at GlobalResearch.ca (and surely some other sites).

Throughout all of this, there is the 'war is a racket' for natural resources [always] being involved; [always]. It is, for one of multiple examples, with the [criminally] arranged and forced separation of Kosovo from Serbia.

And Obama is NOT going to do an iota of noteworthy good about this major criminality on the part of the USA and its hellish war-, etc., mongering allies; while we can be (uncomfortably) sure that neither would Billary, nor McCain, nor any other DP or RP candidates presently running campaigns to try to become the next president of the USA; besides for Mike Gravel, that is. It evidently is because U.S. voters really are not tired of lying to themselves and others about the true nature of the U.S. govt, of representing nothing but HELL ON EARTH, obviously "of course"; I'll add.

He'll be just another butt-kissing, brown-nosing soulless, conscience-less, ... slave like Powell and Rice have made of themselves, f.e. [Conscience], moral ethics, [real] intelligence, are the furthest things from their minds; evidently. And if we can correctly assume that soulless literally is implicated when a person is hellishly conscience-less, then these two slaves are clearly without SOULS.

Well, Obama's already proven to be NO better, but don't ask his brainwashed and self-deceiving supporters about this, for they blatantly refuse to acknowledge any noteworthy difference between official and non-official positions, statements, which should be very elementary to distinguish.

Fall ASLEEP in disneyland, your own or someone else's idea of it, and the "buggers" will "get you" one way or another, for then you are not paying attention, on-guard; or, many people fall so deeply into sleep that anything could happen and they'll always believe 'THE LIE'. Obama's a "smooth talker", for the NAIVE who misbelieve to be of truly good intentions; because he isn't so "smooth" with those people who really are morally ethical and paying careful attention. He could sometimes fool me, but he can't do that for as long as I will NOT discount his Senate votes and statements, which strongly illustrate that he's quite totally unfit to be elected to [any] political office; but which is the [common] voters' choice in the awfully dumb, soulless, ... USA.

Yes, Russia, and I'm surprised that this was not mentioned in the article. "Interesting" omission or ... whatever the absence of this reference is. Maybe the author just hasn't been keeping up with anything but "American" sources "reporting" on the US+NATO military buildup's encroachment on Russia more-so than on China; but there are some respectable U.S. sources, resource people anyway, reporting on this level of analysis and for a year a more, already. I realise this due to GlobalResearch.ca posting articles by some U.S.-based analysts, f.e.; while also knowing that we sometimes get their articles from other resource websites that are also outside of the USA.

That build-up is something we can learn about from various sources, but that it's indicative of the US and NATO building up to likely enough and eventually try to "take on (and over)" Russia is not mentioned by many of these sources. Many of these seem to not present any kind of real analysis, only providing very basic, elementary level reporting. We can still use that level of reporting to "connect the dots" though; and we should.

After all, 'WAR IS A RACKET'!

It's precisely what we got when assassinated former Yugoslavian President Slobodan Milosevic accepted the initial and formally official Rambouillet Accord, upon which GANGSTER Bill Clinton (et al) stupidly but strategically had to object and based on the gangsters' pretense that, "but no, wait a second here, and before we go through with concluding this (dis)agreement, we forgot to add or specify a clause (we supposedly wanted to be included, but somehow forgot, until your acceptance of the accord we present for you to comply with, or else ... SLEDGEHAMMERED you'll be!)". It was a clause that rendered the whole Accord that was otherwise wholly acceptable to Pres. Milosevic unacceptable; for, and after all, he was not permitted to agree to only some parts of the accord, having been gangsterisly required to agree to the whole, in it's criminally amended form, or not at all. In that sense, that one gangster clause made the whole accord unacceptable and therefore unachievable; certainly not with a president like Slobodan Milosevic was anyway. He clearly was of principled leadership and character; unlike most "Americans".

THERE WAS NO MISTAKING THAT FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT IT WAS: [GANGTERSISM] and a-la superpower state kind. Only doodle-minds and schmucks like the so-called Nobel Peace Prize laureats could have believed that Clinton was being honest, sincere, etc.; only MINDLESS and soulless people could have believed that hellbent bs, lying, etc. And I doubt that all of those hellbent Nobel Peace Prize winners believed that Clinton, i.e., U.S. and its real ruling elites, was being honest at all, too. The NPP is just another human institution fated to being [very] hypocritical, hellbent; occasionally awarding the prize to a fair or good candidate, but evidently not doing this except for cover-up, mostly anyway.

I didn't need to be historian to any extent whatsoever to immediately and fully maintain my 'NO!' to that war of aggression, although when Pres. Milosevic rejected the added clause to the accord, then this caused me to wonder what it precisely said, for I figured he surely had wholly just reasons for his rejection. I only had to read the f*cking clause ONCE, 1x, and quickly too, to immediately see 'GANGSTERISM!', LIES, ..., and it's what it was and will always remain; nothing can change that which is FACT! It was unmistakably gangsterism; so elementary in the way it was done and in what it said that YOUNG children should be educated enough to be able to quickly realise such attempts to swindle, ..., others.

I'm not some ordinary school-benched doodle-mind. When I perceive gangsterism, IT [IS] HAPPENING. Join police forces, should I, if I have this observational ability? ARE YOU KIDDING; have you ever read the story of Frank Serpico and carefully considered that it's "only" an important example of much MORE?!? It's just more gangsterism, for the most part; for whatever good is obtained, it's majorly dwarfed by the amount of criminality in "law enforcement". And I am not one to perceive himself as fighting a whole damn war alone; doing like the Old Testament prophet said, that when all hell breaks loose, then to head for the HILLS(!), being or seeming the more fitting reaction.

Jesus of Nazareth said to not judge based on appearances alone, and I wholly agree; but [instinct] is another matter, and he said nothing against applying [instinct] [learned] through real [experience]. Instinct is complementary; it also tells us to not judge based on only appearances, that they can be used to investigate suspicions, but (and while not(!) because your neighbour seems to be growing marijuana, ..., f.e., and) not for sole basis behind judgements we make. Instincts and knowledge complement each other, if and when properly utilised or applied anyway.

So China is perhaps more apparently targeted, long-term, than Russia is, and by far more-so according to the above article via FPIF; meaning Russia's apparently not targeted. Appearances! They sure can be deceiving.

Either way, we still have the US+NATO militarisation in that part of this world, i.e, planet, and the articles I read about Russia being targeted (long term) don't exclude China, so the analyses in these articles is much more thorough than the omissive article above and its likes are.

Russia's reported on plenty in terms of its natural resources, certainly OIL and natural gas anyway, while I have seen no such mention about China; except for extremely inexpensive human labour. The U.S. superpower war-machine is NOT used when natural resources, the very profitable kind, are not involved; but taking on Russia is nextdoor to China, so China would have reason for concern alright, "yes indeedy".

The U.S. superpower war-machine is being used for world-wide economic domination and insatiable greed, with taxpayers footing the costs. And they pretend Obama is trustworthy.

Ha, and huh?

Both Russia and China SEE what the U.S. is not secretly doing, but what "connecting all of the known dots" MEAN. And they will continue to build up their military capabilities, OF COURSE; and hopefully so.

From what I've read, WWII led to Britain being knocked off the superpower "pedestal", with the USA taking over; and it's not been finished with trying to take [completely] over ever since. That process began prior to WWII, too.

What's with the omission regarding Russia? I wonder.

yap.chongyee,

I agree with most everything you said. There is one point that I do not follow. You said, "China is IMPORTING AMERICAN POLLUTION into China. You have cheap goods and you have taken our CLEAN AIR AND CLEAN WATER"

I am not saying I don't agree, I'm just not sure if I understand your points here. Do you mean that because China produces so many goods for the U.S., the industries producing these goods within China have polluted China and used up China's water supply? Or do you mean something else?

If that is what you are saying, I understand your point, but must differ.
It is the responsibility of the Chinese government to insure that Chinese industry is not polluting China, regardless of where the products eventually end up. Further, it is the responsibility of Chinese industry to 'care' and stop polluting illegally, as they do. The economic upturn in China has benefited the Chinese and the problem with pollution (air and water) in China is due to lack of oversight, lack of enforcing regulations (while there are laws against polluting in China, they are almost never enforced), and finally due to the fact that the polluters (industry) don't give a damn about the environment and they pollute illegally and heavily.

And while I agree, as I said, with most of your post, please let me make an observation. Your post has a 'tone' of the tremendous nationalism spoken of before in this thread. Your post smacks of resentment and contains a strong air of superiority. While I abhor countless things that the U.S. does and has done, and while I agree that China would not likely start a war of aggression (except in Tibet), your own country has many faults. Tone down the nationalist pride. It is no more attractive on a Chinese person - or warranted - than it is on an American or anyone else.

Do you mean that because China produces so many goods for the U.S., the industries producing these goods within China have polluted China and used up China's water supply? Or do you mean something else?

Yes that is exactly what I said and from my underatanding of what has passed over CCTV 9 China TV in English. You can get this Channel even in Canada & the USA, Our Chinese are now paying more attention to this issue. After this winter floods, China's 3 gorges will be in full swing and that is a massive project to reduce green house emission. China too realise that we take on pollution in any fast track development and we will correct this problem soon. From my observation China is more awear of this problem and they are taking steps to correct this and China is already ahead in terms of doing what is needed to reduce this evil.

Well, yes, that is certainly what CCTV will tell you, that China is quickly taking steps to "solve" these problems. In fact, what all China news media basically always says it that the government is doing almost everything right.

I draw a distinction between people and governments - everywhere. Both the Chinese people and the American people are great people. Both governments stink and are dishonest. I live in Beijing and have been in China for a decade. I work for the Chinese government. As well, I have traveled throughout China, north to south, east to west, by air, train, bus, mini bus, car, motorcycle, and hitchhiking. The pollution in China is horrible and it is getting worse, not better. Dishonesty and corruption are rampant. Every day, I am lied to multiple times if I am doing business, shopping, or whatever. But, as I said, I hate many things about the American culture and government and when in China, if I criticize anything Chinese, I always make even more criticisms of the U.S. My point is, don't believe what you hear on CCTV or any of the news outlets in China without taking it all with a large grain of salt. Three Gorges is an ecological disaster but that is not what the news will ever tell you.

In the mean time, thanks for responding and take care.

Hello Whateveryousay ! There are no media that are not bias and there are no media that do not desiminate proganda. Will you say that the BBC or the CNBC or the Sky networks are free of proganda ? We are not god and we cannot say that we know what is not knowable. You say you live in Beijing and you know, but you ought to doubt yourself and I ought to doubt you because I do not know !

Yap.chongyee,

Hi, calm down friend. Of course all media are full of propaganda. I never said otherwise. Perhaps it would have been good if I had also mentioned FOX, CNN, etc, but I was careful to point out that "when in China, if I criticize anything Chinese, I always make even more criticisms of the U.S.".

That is not what I find in reverse, however. I have found that Chinese people, to whatever extent it is possible to generalize, USUALLY (not always) feel comfortable criticizing the 'west' but get EXTREMELY defensive and insulted if they are criticized at all! This I have seen many times, over and over again in the last ten years. But, as I said, I always criticize my own country MUCH more than China and, honestly, I rarely make these criticisms anyway. I love China in many ways and it would be rude to be critical all the time. But sometimes it is a natural part of any intelligent conversation about situations in any country.

So don't get so defensive and act like you have just been insulted. You say I should doubt myself. No, I see mis-reporting and I even see mis-education regularly. For example; after the recent winter storms in southern China, CCTV was showing how the leaders were visiting and talking to the stranded passengers. CCTV said the police and government were working compassionately with the people to solve the problem and that it was such a great example of the compassionate, cooperative spirit of the Chinese people and the compassionate government and police. However, what they did not show was people who were stranded in such huge numbers and no where to go fighting with police and the police beating them and arresting them. A VERY different scenario. But the people are ALWAYS told how wonderfully compassionate the government is.

If it makes you feel better, for the record; FOX, CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC, etc do NOT tell the whole truth either and the U.S. President, as well as many other politicians in the U.S. are liars and criminals. How's that?
Do you feel less defensive hopefully? Now, what happens in China if people publicly call Hu Jintao a liar and a criminal???

Hello Whateveryousay ! That sounds about right; I am not being defensive. I observe that you are trying to make me out as being defensive. I am merely pointing the obvious out to you.

You in the west have no idea how caring our Chinese leadership is; we remain and still practise the virtues of Confucious, and our leaders lead by example. You can say whatever you please but you can never pick President Hu as a liar, and that my friend I just cannot say for your President Bush who lies to you face and smile ! It really iks me to listen to Americans spin and these days I just do not watch American TV anymore.

There is a conspiracy by Western media to DEMINISH the true achievements of China and our Chinese people. For example, just today I watched BBC and a report on an EU space launch soon of an EU sattelite that had an innovative tracking device that homes in on the international space station. The typical comment was that this device brings EU into the club of the traditional space faring nations of Russia & the USA. They failed to mention that China is the third member of this club and that we had ACHIEVED WHAT RUSSIA & USA TRIED BUT FAILED IN THEIR ATTEMPT TO PROPEL THEIR SPACE PROBE BY A SIMILAR METHOD AS USED BY OUR CHANG 'E.

You will want to say that I am being petty but I assure I am not; I am merely pointing out to you that if it were CCTV 9 reporting a similar story they will do what I have suggested. THE PROBLEM WITH YOU IN THE WEST IS THAT YOU STILL WILL NOT ADNIT TO YOURSELVES THAT CHINA IS TODAY SITTING AT THE SAME TABLE AS YOU WHETHER YOU, LIKE IT OR NOT.

On your claim that you criticise your country more as if it were a virtue to do so, I do not think it is a virtue at all. If you really live in China then you must know that Chinese society begins and ends with our family. We do not think it is a virtue at all to criticise our Nation. We just do not !

yap.chongyee

Hi again, happy we can have this dialog. If I characterized you as being defensive, and you were not being defensive, I apologize. It did sound like you were being defensive, but perhaps not.

A couple of interesting points; When I asked what would happen if a Chinese person "publicly" called Hu Jintao a liar, it was actually not in reference to him being a liar or criminal, but rather I was trying to draw attention to the fact that it is dangerous in China to criticize publicly. Perhaps I shouldn't have used Mr. Hu as an example but rather should have just said 'a leader'. But what about Mao, can you publicly call him such things. I have privately had Chinese people (well educated ones, I might add) tell me that Mao was a "monster" (even a worse one than Hillary, haha) but they could NEVER say such things in public. It has been estimated that approx 80 million CHINESE people died at the hands of Chairman Mao, yet he still cannot be criticized publicly. I have had classes of university students who still don't believe that ANYONE was killed in Tiananmen Square. I've seen the pictures myself, in fact, I watched it 'live' all those years ago via 'western' media. My Chinese wife told me that, following the incident, a popular female television newscaster was seen with a tear in her eye and was NEVER seen on television again. Yet, you say that Chinese do not find any virtue at all in criticizing their own nation.

Ok, but Chinese people, news, government (which is the news), seem to spend PLENTY of time criticizing other people and nations, as have you.
Well, I would say this; if you cannot stand to look in the mirror (a metaphor for self criticism) then you have no right to point fingers at others. In other words, if you are not willing to criticize yourself, you have absolutely no right whatsoever to criticize others. At all.

Further, self criticism/self reflection is the foundation of growth. Otherwise one simply becomes self-inflated and arrogant.

Moving on; you say the we in the west will not admit to ourselves that China is sitting at the same table, in terms of the space program. Please, that is just silly. How many people has china sent into space and how far? The U.S. was sending people to walk on the moon almost forty years ago! The Chinese have done what in that regard, sent a few fellas into a low orbit? Yes you have satellites but have they been going to take pictures of Saturn, Jupiter, Pluto? How many space shuttles has China flown into space and returned to earth in, landing on a runway like an airplane? Does China have little vehicles driving about the surface of Mars, taking and analyzing soil samples, taking pictures, and sending back the information?

Yes, China is a great country (out of 25% of there entire world's population, you will obviously have a large number of intelligent people) and is now economically very powerful. Militarily, China is powerful and plans to become more so. But to say China is a "third member" of the space club, just because they have sent few guys into orbit in recent years, and some other minor advancements, is nonsense and just proves my point. Absolutely the only way you could think that China is sitting at the same table in terms of space is because your government told you you were. But it is like saying the best pitcher on the middle school baseball team is ready for the major leagues, "whether you like it or not". For God's sake, I know people in China, born and raised in Beijing, attended university, now approaching forty years of age, who, ten years ago, had never even heard of the space shuttle and had no idea that such a thing even existed. I read in the news and heard people here making the argument that, after sending their first flight into orbit, China had accomplished in just a few years what it took the west over a decade to accomplish. So that is what Chinese people then think. Well, the fact is that the west accomplished that in the practical stone ages of technology and invented the technology from nothing. To say that China, accomplished the same feat in a few years, some forty years later with the help of all the modern technology, computers, etc is so silly as to be ridiculous. In the west now, there are private citizens who are building space ships!

For all the criticism and 'knowledge' Chinese people have towards the west, most of them have never left their own province within China! Imagine what a Chinese person would say to an American, if that Chinese person was in America, and the American was telling the Chinese person about China. The Chinese person would, rightfully, say you know nothing of China, you have never even been there. Well, in China, Chinese people are CONSTANTLY talking about America as if they know something about it. What, from CCTV or pirated DVDs? Agreed, Americans do the same towards China, and that is just as silly. But my point is, as I said before, stop criticizing others if you are not willing to criticize yourself. It is disingenuous.

At any rate, we may agree to disagree, but I restate this; I love so many things about China and Chinese people. My daughter is half Chinese.
But the fact that China has a 5,000 year history and used to have a Golden Age in the ancient past does not qualify them to think of themselves in some special way now. If that were the case, then you would have to say that people who live in Egypt now are far superior to the Chinese because of their ancestors whose marvels still cannot be figured our or duplicated with modern technology. The old history, confucian argument is tired and is just like kids saying 'my dad is smarter than your dad'. Maybe you, personally, are not defensive and do not get defensive if your country is fairly criticized on some points. But, and I speak from experience, I have seen countless times how Chinese people will actually become ANGRY if any criticism is made, even accurate criticism. That is childish, especially considering the Chinese have no reservations AT ALL about criticizing others. I hear it constantly here.

Yes, China is a great country with at long history that, at one point was far more advanced than other cultures. But if you cannot look in the mirror today, and be honest, then the greatness of the past is lost.

How wrong I was to think that you might be a well read man, but obviously you are not. You put out very streotypical weatern stock arguements that are vacuuous and meaningless. I need to only raise the points that sums up your points of view.

In the first place, THE USA NEVER WENT TO THE MOON. This claim that the USA did is a fraud; the pictures that you claimed to be those of the Appolo project were proven to have been shot in a back lot of Hollywood.

The second point is that the USA is 40 years ahead of China's in space tech.; this also is another meaningless claim, being eralier does not make you of and in itself a claim to superiority; because if that arguement were valid then we have to say that the USA is in every sense SECOND RANK space power to that of Soviet Union, which in truth Russia is. OK Russia is number 1, USA number 2 and China is number 3, therefore why is it that USA has superior claim to China, because we are behind you and you are behind Russia. OK we accept this your arguement so we are 3rd. WILL YOU AS THIS BASIS RANK EU AS THE 4th ? Therefore if EU wants to name "the traditional space nations they will have to name China because China being the 3dr are supeior to the EU.

We Chinese never criticise others and we do not want to claim any moral right to criticise others.

You do not know that anything about Tiananmen and I too know nothing about that incident. As for our glorious Chairman Mao, we revere him; therefore why would we say anything bad about him. If you were Christian, will you spit on the face of Jesus Christ ? Mao Tze Tung is a great man and we totally spit in you face for saying anything that is uncomplimentry about our Great Mao.

You Westerners may thing it is great to criticise others as a virtue but it is not with us. There are 1.3 billion Chinese and not all care to be ireverant towards our Great Mao Tze Tung.

You Westerners just say it and you take yourselves too seriously for saying that any technology that China acquires must COME FROM THE WEST; but you do not mention that HORDS OF CHINESE SCIENTISTS FORM THE BACKBONE OF USA R&D. China designed our technology and we know it that is all that matters. There is the other miracle of Chinese innovation, productivity and superior common sense. CHINA IS ABLE TO CLIMB IN WORLD RANKINGS FROM 137 PLACE AND WITHIN A SAPCE OF 20 YEARS CHINA HAS OVERTAKEN USA TO BE NOW NUMBER 3 after Germany. I truely think we ought to rank number 1.

China over the whole of 5,000 years of world history had been in the fore front of creativity and had 5,000 gloden years of history & civilization. The USA compared to China is an infant.

Aieoo, hao le, xianzai, wo kan ni shi hen ben ren. Ni qu guo Mei guo ma?
Wo bu xiang le. Yi ge Zhongguo ren gei wo shuo Mao shi "monster". Ye, wo KAN GUO Zhongguo renmen KILLING Zhonguo renmen zai Tainanmen. Wo kan guo. He Tibet bu shi Zhongguode. Yi qien, wo bu xiang ni shi tsong ming. Wo bu yao gae ni shuo na ge. Xianzai, ni gae wo kan ni bu shi tsong ming, ren ho wo shuo, dui, dui, dui.

Wu qien nian shi lao de, mei guanxi, xianzai, ni shi ben ben. Kong fu tse shi tsong ming. Lao Tse ye shi. Xianzai, ta men bu lai. Ni xiang shem me ni xiang. Ni zhi dao tai you yidian...cctv hehe.

Zai Jian.

And, as I said, Chinese people get extremely angry and defensive if you criticize them at all. And Chinese people DO criticize others regularly, as yap,congyee does. He just, laughably (if it weren't so sad) proved it. For anyone else reading this, yap,congyee demonstrates the DEGREE of propaganda in China and what many Chinese people think. Beware.

p.s. yap,

Mao imprisoned or ran out of the country all of the teachers, artists, intellectuals, and well educated people (including my father in law, a very sweet soul) and turned the country over to peasants and teenagers, uneducated and who were encouraged to turn against their own parents!!! You have been lied to since you were born. Sorry, I know it's a hard truth to swallow, and in that way, I have compassion for the Chinese.

But, as I said before, if I work or go shopping, I get LIED to daily by Chinese people who then get ANGRY if you would ever even slightly insinuate that they are lying. AND YOU KNOW IT!!! For example, at the market;
"Zhe ge shi lao de."
"Zhen de ma?" "Wo xiang na ge bu shi lao de. Kan kan, wo xiang zhe ge shi xin de."
"Bu shi, bu shi, zhe ge shi lao de. Zhen de ma!!!"

Or;

"Zhe ge shi POLO."
"Zhe ge shi ROLEX."
"Zhe ge shi I-Phone."

Give me a break Yap... A LIE IS A LIE!!!!! I am willing to admit that there are faults with America. You CANNOT ADMIT ANYTHING! YOU ONLY CAN SAY HOW GREAT CHINA IS. PLEEEEEEASE. Even my Chinese friends who I have now shown this to are laughing at your post, shaking their heads. You are the Chinese version of George Bush, an arrogant but poor student. Come to think of it, Mao was the same as you. You can take that as a compliment pal, hehe. KTV or baijiu anyone?