Hi Cindy,
You wrote:
Why are Americans still signing up for the military and voluntarily going to Iraq? Are things so desperate in our communities that our young people want to die for Exxon or Halliburton or kill an innocent Iraqi for absolutely no reason?

I would answer: Massive advertising campaigns (TURN OFF YOUR TV'S, MOMS AND DADS!!!!) coupled with an economy, at least here in central Maine, designed to provide no jobs and no health insurance for the working class -- unless you enlist. It's a comprehensive plan and it's working very effectively. In the high school in my very poor community we are awash in recruiters and their advertising messages. Barely a room in the school is free of calendars, posters, pencils, keychains, etc. etc. The lunchroom has tables set up so they can distribute more of advertising that my taxes paid for. In my dream the citizens of my community would walk into the high school, pick up the table, and carry it outside off school grounds. This would create a small stir in the press for a day or two, maybe. But it could be done again, and again, and again as long as needed. We need to stick up for our children!!!! Recruiting in schools now starts as early as 7th grade with National Guard programs where soldiers in battle fatigues replace science or social studies instruction with a DARE-like program. Go to your school boards about this!! I have done so several times but am always brushed off, because they know hardly anyone is paying attention or cares.

After five years of protest, some of us in Maine decided that a fitting anniversary observance would be witnessing the truth these veterans are preparing to bring to Washington DC. It will take courage for them to testify, and we can honor that by listening. We're getting together on Sat. noon at Skowhegan's Empire Grill, used to film Russo's book "Empire Falls" (they all do) to listen in community with others.

I often release pent up tears when in a large crowd at a peace gathering. The last time this happened was last November in Bangor seeing many pairs of shoes labeled with children's names, ages, and cause of death from the initial Shock and Awe (sic) attack on Baghdad in '03. The ugliness and violence of war to the human spirit is so very hard to bear. It's why so many are duped into enlisting. May we all find the strength to keep our heads out of the sand, and to open our ears/eyes/hearts.

cindysheehan posted:

"...

I wish my son had talked to a counter-recruiter or had the courage to resist. Instead he "followed orders" and went to Iraq and was killed after 5 days…which is my only consolation. ..."

Excellent perspective that is, very healthy. However, I am giving Casey the benefit of (the) doubt that he actually believed the lies of the Cheney-Bush administration about Saddam Hussein's non-existant connection to the attacks of Sep. 11, 2001; and I think, confidently, that many US troops were similarly suckered by these hellbent fascist and corporatist "leaders" and controllers of the US govt (and much of NATO). So such unfortunate (mis)belief on the part of the troops is not something I think of in terms of lack of courage; it, instead, is tragically mistaken judgement, to blindly believe the hellbent bastards holding the reins of the govt, and of course also guilty are all warmongering s.o.b. military officers or commanders.

Alors, was Casey an example of lack of "courage to resist"? Based on what I've gathered, I'd say 'NO'. Maybe it is part of the cause of him serving in the war, but I don't have knowledge of facts that support such a view or understanding.

Maybe he would've been like a good number of other troops, who dissented very early on and due to conscience, and realising that the war wasn't about what the Cheney-Bush administration claimed, but about purpose or mission of starkly different kind.

That hellbent administration hasn't ceased pretending that the war on Iraq is supposedly justified due to Saddam Hussein having been guilty in the 9-11 attacks, and I read that even a year or two ago soldiers still seemed to know of only this false reason, lie. The military unfortunately does not enlist only "Einsteins".

Many of the troops clearly are not sufficiently quick about:

a) observing or realising that what they're told and what they have to SEE in front of them, but don't see, seriously contrasts from what the c-in-c et al say, indicating LIES from the latter commanders; and,

b) using this realisation to DISSENT.

Not that academic achievement is always [the] problem, for it was not for me, as well as others, but you don't need a highschool diploma to enlist, say. Or, it's what the policy was when I enlisted into the USN in 1976, when at age 19 I had the equivalent of no more than an 8th grade education (bit of a rebel, but nonviolent, sort I became for ... a "little" while - "shit happens", ya know). Getting my GED and a trade were two of my reasons for enlisting, while another purpose was to get a little exercise in disciplining 'rebel me', and which turned out to include learning that the soldiers' oaths are not to the "person" sitting in the seat of c-in-c, but the Constitution and intl treaties the govt is co-signatory of. It is the one theoretical course topic that I have recalled since my bootcamp training; almost everything else about my period there being very forgotten.

During very early bootcamp I went to the Mass on the base with a recruit peer from the same company, a guy from Jersey City, and while the military chaplain or cardinal, whatever rank the priest had, spoke, I went into balling, softly (and causing me to not return to these Masses again); because I then was having images of myself in war and ALL OF THE DAMN KILLING and destruction. My parents were not for my enlistment, definitely wanted my path to exclude this choice (my father did army service in Canada many decades earlier, but not in war, so really training, ..., within Ca's territory). But I grew up rebel (enough), [mind-ed] or [thinker] and principled, since early childhood, and when I made up my mind it was made up; only logistical considerations, i.e., problems or limitations, f.e., having been able to influence me to realise that there was a need to alter or modify my decisions. Being rebel often, if not always, involves disregarding or devaluing materialist values, and not blindly trusting people on critical or important matters; and all without meaning that we don't think strategically and logistically. We do the latter, for it's an inherent necessity for rebel- or revolutionary-hearted people to carefully consider strategy and logistics.

It's not something many among rebels, revolutionary hearts or minds, have real merit for, for, and like in my case, it's all second-nature, or else first-nature; it's the way we are and look at LIFE, the world, .... People like the IVAW and VVAW, f.e., have merit, for instead of coming out and exposing the many and extreme war crimes, they could stay opposed to the war all without divulging these stories that'd remain secret without their testimonies. Conversely, I said 'NO!' to the war on Kosovo, Yugoslavia, thereby Serbia, and to the wars on Afghanistan and Iraq, the coup d'etat on Haiti, etc.; but it's just me. 'NO!' is [automatic]; the motherfucking political leaders and their hidden rulers can't get me to support any violent actions without providing a lot of proof for their claimed justifications, and they NEVER can do this.

All it takes is having a truly [INDIVIDUAL CONSCIENCE] and autonomously thinking character, therefore. It is all so simple and down-to-earth to me that it's sometimes difficult to understand that many others aren't the minimally same way; but then there's realisation of how extremely applied [brainwashing], and in the many enough different ways this is done, exists, is real.

For that, we also have churches to blame. F.e., and from what I read two or three, maybe four years ago, the RC and Presbytarian churches in the USA were the Christian churches least supportive of war on Iraq, but they still and both were in the 60+% majority range of support; a reality that tells me that these churches are far from doing enough to make sure their members receive important reality-based education, instead of neglecting to provide this during Masses and other gatherings.

Those were supporters not serving in the wars, and then there were the supporters from other groups, atheists, homosexual lunatics (making respectable and dignified en masse homosexuals look bad, as is the common outcome when large groups have even minority members acting or mongering in evil terms), and so on. Since the Bush administration began openly threatening Iran, we have had some Iranians in the USA and Canada vociferously, enough, supporting the Bush administration, and we had the same thing with respect to the threat of war on Iraq, f.e.

Given these latter parts of USA reality, nationally, and the widespread "work" to brainwash, dumb down the overall general population, it's not difficult to understand that too many youth and young adults, and their families, let themselves be suckered into serving war based entirely on LIES.

Iow, I'd drop referring to Casey as having lacked courage to dissent; unless some real evidence of or for this is provided, anyway. I do not [know] the he and all others who accepted to serve in these wars lacked courage to dissent, and we have proof that this did not always apply.

Angry I've been and am, when thinking of it, that the troops continue to support to serve in these wars, while recognising that some are doing or making this choice while suffering from serious PTSD, which prevents them from being able to clearly reason "things out". In a moment of anger, I could say that they all lack this necessary courage, but it's only momentary and due to frustration. [Reason] tells me to accept these moments, but to also not neglect the ... much rest.

I had absolutely NO desire to harm ANYONE when I went into the military, and was long opposed to violence; but not [defence]. I believed in [defence] at ages 4 (a year when it thankfully was only scary verbal threats against my life) and 5, 6, ..., and surely will never cease to hold this principle as certainly valid; [defence]. After all, it's against aggression, and for Biblical believers, God did not command "Thou shalt not kill", but "Thou shalt not murder", which is about total [aggression]; not defence. And Jesus never spoke against [defence]; some people refer to him having done this when he told Peter to stop lopping or slicing off ears of Roman soldiers, while these people always neglect to provide the full story, in which Jesus added that it was "better for one to die (to be sacrificed) for [many], rather than many for one", which is a wholly distinct context when we today consider peoples aggressed with US militarism, as well as economically predatory imperialism in all other ways the US superpower is used to try to coerce and impose.

The country needs a cultural, ... revolution, in order to finally evolve towards becoming ... finally civilised. The USA, as a whole, is more guilty than individual troops are.

We see that strongly reflected in Cindy Sheehan's article on what she learned during her trip to Cuba in 2007, f.e.

"Cuba: Open-Armed Policy

by Cindy Sheehan

Global Research, March 1, 2008
http://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/ - 2008-02-21"

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8192

Truth to power, Cindy:

We, as parents, should be the counter-recruiters.

In peace.

Siouxrose:

Your spirituality creates much wisdom. Your posting never cease to amaze me.

Peaceman writes: Somebody update me …did Romney's five sons join the Army or Marines to fight the terrorists over their so we don't have to fight em' over here
*********************************************
Update a resounding NO! Not one son or daughter of any Senator or COngressman has enisted and NO one in the Bush family done it either!

Now as far as those brave soldiers of Iraq Veterans Against the War-BRAVO!! Those that speak out will encourage others to do the same. I think they shoud all run for whatever, Senate or House for they surely can offer a lot to those war mongers who may have never even seen any battle up close and personel, OH except for McCain and I think he's mentally defective!

Our military is serving a president who thinks the US Constitution is just a goddamned piece of paper....what does that say?

Siouxrose,

Thanks. And both of yours as well.

MeAlsoToo_A Realist

Additional information for your above essay. Ralph Schoenman was with the Bertrand Russell group in the anti-war movement and helped in the release of downed U.S. pilots in North Vietnam. Also the monopolistic corporate media that used to glorify the 'venerable' Colin Powell, never mentioned the fact that he was sent to investigate the My Lai Massacre and helped in covering it up. The real person to venerate for reporting the story is Seymour Hersch, from the New Yorker magazine. And Calley still got away with cold-blooded murder. How long was he incarcerated?

PEACEMAN: Good post!

DAVID GRAYLING says, "The only way I can see that human nature will change is to tinker with the genes, get rid of those faulty components which make us so destructive and brutal." By thinking that violence is GENETIC as opposed to a LEARNED behavior, the fruit of society's worship of masculine force, the result of religions that ONLY see God as a male entity (a false conjecture that has denigrated the OTHER half of the DIVINE equation that is made manifest through the whirling dervish dance of DNA as it mates equal sums from BOTH sides of "the force") you gloss over the true CAUSE of this dis-ease. (And I am not saying women, long enculturated and socialized to norms of might makes right have not adapted some of the ways and means of this "dominant" paradigm. The TRUTH however is that human beings have not been FED on a diet of ideological or spiritual truth, have become the product of asymmetric societies whose distribution systems among haves and have nots BREED contempt. Thus the laws of economics marry into religious delusions and behaviors become warped and twisted in a great many. THIS is not human nature and this has nothing to do with genes. Just because of late we've had in so-called civilization public education and/or the supposed fruits of The Enlightenment hardly means that the age-old training in false credos and the nod to aggressive behaviors (our media's love of "action heros" and tons of gun "play") have altered. VIOLENCE as in MARS rules, and until VENUS is given fair representation, we can see our treasure wasted on the killing fields.

This is 'Deja-Vu all over again', for me...
I was a Winter-Soldier, in my hometown of Detroit back-in-the-day. After experiences I 'still' find difficult to discuss (related to my immature-need/desire to 'participate' with the spy-game in '68/9 re: the CIA [which I never got into, btw -- too-"Independent as a thinker"] -- but surely had the Clearances and 'access' for it). I was already familiar with the Ann Arbor and Port Huron 'cliques' well before-Service, and 're-united' more heavily after-Service. I was a 'secondary-organizer' and hanger-on during many of these things involving Hayden (what an ass!), Kerry more-later), Steinum (very cute/bright!), some famous 'Yippies', and varied media-folks (Phil was my-favorite, but very-'Catholic'). They all impressed me', but none more than Kerry. He (and his 'people') in run-up details, dropped-names easily (like Chandra of Sweden [my 'Homeland', sorta], and Bertrand Russell and Jean-Paul Sartre -- and SO impressed still-impressionable young-men like myself (and I was 'worldly-beyond-my-years', even then). But, what he 'couldn't discuss' was his 'tour' after Vietnam, or 'why' he was such an "Internationalist" & so very pro-UN. I never had any 'face time', alone, to have any 'debate' with him (and would obviously, then, have 'lost' -- he was stone/cold-Brilliant, and already 'Congress-bound', even-then. His first 'appointment', though, was into the VVAW (and, just as sleazily as some of his latter-appointments/committee-ships)...and he was a 'big-gun' within Detroit.

1970 was quite the 'year' in my life. As a lifelong-conservative
(true!) I had still fought Cavanaugh before-Service in keeping Plum
Street 'alive' -- as Detroit's only real bright-spot of counter-culture
(pre-FifthEstate/WSU/CassCorridor-days, when only UofD and other
Catholic-institutions/clergy were really 'active'). I didn't appear
very-Active, myself, in the mid/late-'60's (and, apparently had 'stayed off
radar', since I later had no 'issue' with C/S/TS&Crypto-Clearances &
FBI-interviews for 'background' -- but then, my best-friend [who I
buddy-enlisted with, and did NCO-Acad. at Ft. Knox with] was the
son of an FBI-bigwig -- so, maybe that-'helped')? [I can say all this 'casually' now, since all-Parties are "no longer with us"].
My buddy went straight to Vietnam after Stripes (tank-commander, like myself -- but Americal had other-plans for him -- PX-'adventures' and driving 'august-Personages' around...among other crap he got into). He always was 'lucky' and a 'riser'...(drove for a President later, when in Korea -- for example). Anyway, I volunteered for more-varied 'trainings/MOS's' stateside, then was sent for yet-more in Germany. [I've hopped in-and-out of E-Asia, but never 'officially-stationed' there]
Eventually, I played with nuke-handling, and NATO, and other 'interesting duties' on the fringes of Intel -- read and talked to a LOT of people who 'shouldn't have talked so-freely'. Many-many potential "burn-outs"/PTSD's are and were cycled through 'observational-Stays' in Europe before being 'allowed back home' (some were never so-'allowed' -- but that's another-story, and never involved Me!). It was all VERY 'educational', taken as a whole.
But (thankfully), I washed-out around the same-time I realized I wanted 'nothing more to do with this-crap' -- thus was Honorably-Discharged and back in Detroit in time for all the 'real-Phun'! And, it was all Phun, and seemingly 'important', and I learned more pursuing my Hobby than I ever-did at WSU...
I also re-united with my older-bosses-wife, the redhead. In 1970, I even
convinced her to march with me down Woodward. I gave her a Khaki-shirt without Unit-patches on it, and wore one of my fatigue-shirts that had all the sew-ons -- and we did March until this suburban/well-off Lass lagged behind me and was hit by the front-bumper of a Detroit Police car -- and, foolishly yelled at them. They lunged-forward and knocked her over, gathered crowd-attention and could care-less -- as they jumped out of cruiser, one pulling-Billy. I knew what would 'ensue' if I confronted them directly, so I jumped on top-of and fully-covered her -- pressing her down on pavement (so she'd shut-up and not get 'pacified'). Because I did this so-fast, and my shirt 'flew colors', and the crowd was responsive -- they didn't f-up both of us. [Told you, it was all Phun!]
But that 'act' got me Intro-ed later to yet-more interesting-people (I had nothing I could personally 'testify to' myself, in Detroit). Anyway, I digress...
Kerry was, back then, impressive-indeed. I didn't 'know' anything then about 'the Skulls' personally, or other Eastern-elitist/secret Org's [I knew more than I wanted to about CIA-recruitment and THEIR ties to Skull-Bro's and Sullivan and Cromwell, and the rest of Wall-Street/OSS/etc. -- but I had no clue 'who' had been in the SB's, or 'exactly why' that had any-importance/relevance -- I surely didn't know Kerry had been, or who the then-pissant 'W' was (or I'd have 'outed' Kerry back-then). I still don't know exactly how-many of my local/national 'counter-cultural heroes' back then knew ALL ABOUT such 'things' when I didn't (I suspect Hayden, some-several Panthers, Rubin, maybe-Hoffman, and several-others now -- maybe Fonda and other 'wealthy-asses' who 'hung out with us Vets/Detroiters', when the "cameras were on"). [She was cute, then... Shortly after Barbarella?]

I'll cut to the chase, here. Kerry WAS brilliant -- the captain of Yale's
debate-team (and, it showed). And Committed (on camera).
Also Highly-insulated, and very-'protected'. It all had the 'dis-Reality'
of a staged-event (hell, it WAS all a staged-event, only we Locals didn't know-this). And, this kind of crappola launched Kerry's 'lustrous political career'.
And, I can tell you that (even with a 'box on back' and a voice whispering in his ear) there was NO way 'W' could have "fought to a draw" with Kerry when _they_ Debated -- unless THAT was also-Rigged and staged. I knew when I watched their so-called Debate that Kerry was stooging for this old-frat-buddy, and would throw the Election re-count in the same-fashion Gore had -- "giving up" only 1-minute after able to do-so (as he and Edwards subsequently 'did').

So...and "Bottom-Line":
If YOU think we have an actual "electoral process" in this country, or that we ever-have (within living-memory), it is now YOU who are 'naive' -- indeed.
Obama? Just remember Jackson and Mondale (Hilly and SD's being Mondale, today). And, if Hilly should have to 'get her head banged' for whatever reason(like that CIA/ISI Indian-Bitch and Harvardite/'Internationalist', Bhutto), Obama would be 'no different' than Hilly will-be -- and I DO mean 'no different at-all'. There is a 'script' (which even a dumb-ass like Bush, or his dad's former VP, can often aspire to 'follow', and 'closely').
Several-corporations and banks (generally 'foreign'), and 'certain' law-firms run this country...for few-but-Familial and very multi-generational&Globalist 'Interests'. And, unlike Me, They have been 'Active' -- since even-before we lost our first two-wars with our 'real'
"Homeland". [Ask our current-Queen, or her idiot-Son (who wants to be a Tampon!)]
[Too much Inbreeding really shows, does it not?]

BTW, my 'personal-opinion' at the time ALWAYS echoed Lt.Col. Solis's, below [I didn't need to wait for the Swift-boater's to know what Kerry/Fonda/etc. really-were 'about' -- I saw-through them before Kerry ever addressed-Congress in '71 -- as I can easily 'see-through' similar, today!):

""Summarizing the accounts of American soldiers he had heard at an
antiwar conference in Detroit weeks earlier, Mr. Kerry said the men
told how 'they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads,
taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up
the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians,
razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle
and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks and generally ravaged the
countryside of South Vietnam.' " the Times reported in a February 28
retrospective on Kerry's Vietnam war protests.
"But Gary Solis, a former Marine lieutenant colonel, Vietnam veteran
and expert on war crimes who is an adjunct professor at the Georgetown
University Law Center here, said Mr. Kerry had made a grave error.
'Sure it's true,' Mr. Solis said. 'Sure there were people raped, ears
cut off and so on. Each one of the things that he mentioned happened,
in some cases I know, and in others I'm confident. But when you put
them all together in one sentence and say this was well known at every
level of command, it impugns, it seems to me, everyone who fought over
there and it gives the impression that everyone who fought over there
was a war criminal and that's just not true,' " the Times report
concluded.
What the national news media has not reported in the current
controversy - just as was not widely reported in 1971 - are the crimes
of war that Kerry summarized in his antiwar speech to Congress. When
it comes to war crimes, the news world seems to prefer quoting
opinions rather than presenting facts.
The fact is that the testimony on war crimes presented by Vietnam
Veterans Against the War in Detroit, Michigan, was read into the
Congressional Record, spurred Congressional hearings into the conduct
of the war in Vietnam, and echoed the conclusions of Brigadier General
Telford Taylor, who prosecuted Nazi war criminals after World War II,
that in Vietnam "we failed ourselves to learn the lessons we undertook
to teach at Nuremberg, and that failure is today's American tragedy"
(Nuremberg and Vietnam, 1970).
The hearings in Detroit, called the Winter Soldier Investigation, were
designed to counter what many veterans saw as government officials
scapegoating GIs for the widespread death and destruction of civilians
and villages in Vietnam. "This group's efforts to document such
testimony followed the well-known 1968 massacre of Vietnamese
civilians at My Lai. By the 1971 VVAW hearings, the trial of Lt.
William L. Calley by the Army was planned. The 1968 My Lai incident
clearly resulted in more antiwar sentiment here in the United States,
including these efforts of Vietnam veterans to describe vividly their
personal experiences," University of Richmond history professor Ernest
Bolt stated in a 1999 essay on the war crimes hearings. "

OLD BADGER TOO said, "Two thousand years after Christ, it is still the soldier and not the christian who is venerated." Actually, I'd say they've nicely morphed into one another. Consider Bush's initial call to a crusade, that imbecile boykin stating, "I knew my god was bigger than their god," the rant at many right wing churches in FAVOR of this war, the right wing Christian radio taunts against "Islofascism," AND the recent "Christianization" of the U.S. air force.

If the ONE thing standing in the way of outright license to kill is conscience, then the military using the false premise that "God wants you to do this" cancels out that one singular HUMAN check and balance. WE are there!

Good Luck soldiers with your march. Hope you plan more marches so that the public can hear your stories because only PBS will air anything close to the truth.

Sociologists and psychologists who specialize in militarism can contribute their expertise on why people join the armed forces. Here are a few.
#1) Some reasons are the "macho male" image of being a brave warrior, ready to risk life and limb to save us from the boggeyman. ( The boggeyman concept applies to all cultures and societies throughout the world, since day one. #2) To impress. The would be hero is gong to save the females in his life from the boggeyman, and has a latent desire for adoration when he returns from 'the battle.' ("My Johnny was in the war, I'm so proud of him," etc.)
#3) To impress. I'm gonna show the male members of my family as well as my friends just how much courage I have, and fight that boggeyman. This third aspect is generational. (My father was a war veteran, my uncles were in this or that war, my grandfather was in this war, and on and on until we trace our ancestry back to some caveman who hit another guy over the head with a tree limb and stole his food. Possibly the first use of "armed force." ("I've got to join the military and follow in my Father's footsteps. I'm proud of Dad." And...that's a legitimate belief!)
#4) Indoctrination. Never ridicule a stupid or not so bright person. That's cruel. And when you meet someone with limited access to alternative information, take them under your wing and tutor them. An arduous task but paramount in bringing forth the truth of the matter. But do admonish the "willfully ignorant" ones for their "holier than thou" position. This type of person are narrow-minded bigots whom shysters and con-artists; aka politicians, cherish to carry out their nefarious deeds. These are the anti-scientific types that the Christian Fascist anti-Christ types use in those hugh mega churches similar to the Nuremberg rallys of the Third Reich.
#5) Money. Beyond the jingoism of terrorist propaganda, money , I believe is the biggest factor for people joining or re-enlisting, or for commissioned officers to extend their service time. What we used to call, "three hots and a cot," meaning three meals a day and a bed to sleep on. Since those days, military pay has skyrocketed and the morally and ethically deficient war criminals in Congress have made sure to up the enlistment/re-enlistment bonuses as an enticement for a steady supply of henchmen (and women). Everybody wants a job with a steady paycheck. Understood. Willie Sutton, Jesse James, Al Capone, Lucky Luciano, John Dillinger, and the drug dealers of today need to make money. Even Robin Hood had to poach a deer or two from the tyrannical king to feed the poor. Everybody can rationalize their raison d' e-tre, but I think money is the primary factor.

socrates2 March 1st, 2008 1:20 am

"At the movies we have been fed a steady diet of WW2 flicks... We have been conditioned by Hollywood and massive, Pentagon-sponsored multimillion dollar campaigns to see joining the US killing machine"

So is it our fault that there was a organized collaboration to influence our thinking? To define patriotism as "Obeying Power" without thinking!

I had to laugh a little at a mess in our National Forest; somebody dumped their TV off and used it for target practice. I pictured a littering redneck who gave up on Bush.

We are a mess, but all it takes is to break the spell and see the truth!

The AM radio jerks are blaming us for not spending! It will be our fault for the failing economy. Who are their advertizers? Money Lenders and Credit Fixers!

If you can't stand to read Common Dreams and the like, your probably still listening to the AM jerks trying to get the rest of your money.

Pistonbroke: we have to get rid of this 1st past the post system, because it has no place in a true democracy. The war in Iraq started before we had a chance to vote Bliar out, but the 2005 election was a travesty, and the best example yet that we need proportional representation.
I also believe that the "whip system" has a lot to do with the way our MPs voted, and I wonder how many of them had the guts to face their electorate and admit their sins.
I know this is dreaming, but what a sight it would be, to see all the warmongering cowards shipped out to the front line in Afghanistan or Iraq, and then enjoy watching as they crack up.
As for all the crap on the news, about Harry "defending his country", give me a break, because I have never experienced an air raid or a land war, or a blockade.
I do know that the Iraqi people have suffered all of this and a lot more, and unless we raise our voices, we are all complicit in these crimes against fellow human beings.

AndyUK March 1st, 2008 10:19 am

THE IRAQ WAR IS AND WAS A WAR CRIME.

In my opinion (and I know that some of you may not agree), anyone who signed up for military service after 2003 is a war criminal....

=======================
Andy,
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I continue to get a lot of flak for saying what you are saying. Of course I stick to my opinion because my opinion is based on logic rather than on how many other people agree with me.

truthmonger February 29th, 2008 12:33 pm

Actually, I think they all should run for office and tell the truth about war.
====================

Unfortunately the two party duopoly has shut down all doors to this option. And the American Sheeple continue to support the Dames (the complicit party, the Bush-enabler party)

My hats off to these veterans for having the courage to do the right thing.

Our soldiers are war criminals.

DON'T SUPPORT OUR TROOPS

Sorry Andy I didn't read your 1st post and I entirely agree with you.

Andy, I do believe that Royalty is with the Ghurkas in Afgahnistan, the other point I'd like to make is the MPs who voted for this insane adventure, or rather pushed it only represent 1/3 rd of the electorate, that's what the 1st past the post system gives you.

These Squaddies have simply run to the door marked " Exit " but they are just as much to blame for this enormous crime as the Bush gang because without these nutcases Iraq and Afgahnistan would never have got off the ground.

Iraq, as a poster said, had nothing to do with 9/11 that was the responsibility of the US military. If Americans still think it was 19 arabs then they want their heads testing.

The USA is now the pits, it is governed by Psycopaths hellbent on mass destruction and genocide the sooner that is accepted then the sooner the USA can join the rest of us as useful citizens of the world.

All this shit being broadcast 24/7 about the USAs superiority and military might will only put Americans deeper in the mire if they believe it and act on it like these stupid marines did. Didn't Vietnam teach you people anything?

Another point:
I don't know of any UK politician's children going to serve in this war. We still recruit our cannon fodder from the poorest in society.

Can I just add this:

THE IRAQ WAR IS AND WAS A WAR CRIME.

We are supposed to be educated people, who have advanced from the feudal middle ages, and yet we still glory in war.
Here in the UK our young Prince Harry, has described his time in Afghanistan as "exciting" fighting "Terry Taliban", and having a chance to "defend our country"

The whole escapade, engineered by Bush and Bliar is a huge war crime, and nobody in a position of power attempted to stop it.

In my opinion (and I know that some of you may not agree), anyone who signed up for military service after 2003 is a war criminal, and they knew that they would be going off to a foreign land to slaughter people. Some of them, just like our own dear Prince, may have thought of it as a big adventure, a bit like an extreme sport - white water rafting or bungee jumping for instance - these people have sought to experience killing people, and if anyone tries to excuse them, then they share the same morals.

Gail February 29th, 2008 3:37 pm

peaceman February 29th, 2008 12:51 pm
"Somebody update me …did Romney's five sons join the Army or Marines to fight the terrorists over their so we don't have to fight em' over here."

peaceman,
As I recall, when someone asked him a similar question about his sons service, Romney implied that his sons were also doing America and Americans a great service by working hard on his campaign to get him elected as the next President of this country. I remember laughing when he answered the question.

Gail and peaceman:

Why haven't you brought up the next logical question? Since Romney has "suspended" his campaign, his sons are now free to volunteer! I'm not sure about the other four, but one of them is going to "serve" by running for political office. I wonder what his position is regarding the crapfests in Iraq and Afghanistan?

How far does an acorn fall from the tree?

The problem that we face in Iraq is that policymakers in leadership have set a precedent of lawlessness where we don't abide by the rule of law, we don't respect international treaties, so when that atmosphere exists it lends itself to criminal activity," argues former U.S. Army Sergeant Logan Laituri, who served a tour in Iraq from 2004 to 2005 before being discharged as a conscientious objector.

I have said the same thing for a long time now. We have had a Commander in Chief who has thumbed his nose at the law at every turn. He has broken every law on the book and gotten away with it. He has let it be known he has no respect for other people and their belief's. Actually invaded a country that was no threat to us. So what makes everyone think this kind of behavior doesn't 'trickle down' to the enlisted men who are over there fighting? They see our leaders acting like a bunch of animals in the wild. So they instinctively follow suit. It just seems to happen by osmosis.

"As I recall, when someone asked him a similar question about his sons service, Romney implied that his sons were also doing America and Americans a great service by working hard on his campaign to get him elected as the next President of this country. I remember laughing when he answered the question."

Peaceman, Gail and others: Has Romney been asked about his sons' service records lately?

Incidentally, all who consume more than necessities are indirectly supporting (more than necessary) all the government does via swelling the GDP and thereby generating taxable income.

Call for a nation-wide extended period of purchasing only what is needed to avoid hunger and cold.

While you listen for the squeals of pain, use some of what you have stopped spending to help those who are hungry and cold.

Ms Sheehan raises an interesting question: Are things so desperate in our communities (that young kids volunteer to kill and die)?
Yes. A study some time back noted that most volunteers came from rural, small towns. It's part of an economic pattern. And a lack of educational opportunity pattern. And our elected leaders who see politics as a popularity contest and a game of personal perks mis-invest our taxes waging futile wars. If "politics is the art of collecting and spending taxes," as Gore Vidal once wrote, then most of the bunch in the Beltway are pretty artless when it comes to the latter part of the equation... I want to know how and where these guys running for office are going _to spend_ our hard-earned taxes. I hope I am more than just a revenue generating cash-cow for our politicians.
Anything else in their campaign speeches are distractors.
'Nuff said.

I just watched the documentary: Fog of War...
with Robert McNammara...high war criminal.
At 85 he was recounting his days as a soldier and as SecDef under Kennedy and Johnson.

He talked about 100,000 "Japs' being burned in one night by Curtis LeMay and his band of war criminals in Tokyo during WWII...the millions of "Gooks" being killed in Vietnam. And how LeMay had wanted to just nuke Cuba off the face of the earth in 1961...and, for good measure, strike the USSR...if that freak got his way, I am sure none of us would be here now.

McNammara only teared up when he talked about Kennedy dying and Johnson firing him.

The most chilling part was when he told the camera and us what Curtis LeMay told him after WWII: If we were the losers, we would convicted of war crimes.

Now we are in another horrid "war" with hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis dead and millions displaced from their homes. It couldn't be any clearer that this occupation is internationally illegal and fundamentally immoral. I would say that it violates our own Constitution, but I think our Constitution has been invalidated by BushCo and Congress, Inc. Why are Americans still signing up for the military and voluntarily going to Iraq? Are things so desperate in our communities that our young people want to die for Exxon or Halliburton or kill an innocent Iraqi for absolutely no reason?

War crimes ALWAYS happen in war and atrocities are inherent in these situations. I know both sides have committed these abominations, but who is more justified? An Iraqi resistance fighter who wants to expel the occupiers? Or the occupiers playing imperial war-lord in a country where we are not welcome? I think Americans know in their heart of hearts..whether they want to admit it or not, that soldiers do unspeakable things in war. Sociologist Robert J. Lifton calls war: Atrocity producing situations.

We have seen pictures of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. We have seen the burnt bodies of Fallujans who were targeted with white phosphorous. We have seen babies with limbs dangling and screaming with the blood and brains of their parents covering them. I hate to admit this of my own country, but for the most part, these images do not burn into our psyches like they should.

I was told by a young Army recruit who didn't approve of my anti-war position or work that he couldn't wait to get to Iraq and "kill all the sand niggers" that he could. This was just a few months ago. It made me sick to my stomach.

The peace movement should support counter-recruitment efforts and support organizations that give support to resisters such as: Courage to Resist.

I wish my son had talked to a counter-recruiter or had the courage to resist. Instead he "followed orders" and went to Iraq and was killed after 5 days...which is my only consolation. There was no time for him to commit any war crimes...I don't think he could have survived that himself.

When I am in Congress, I will pursue the war criminals at the top and "support the troops" by advocating for better mental health access for our returning Veterans and working hard to bring them home.

Love & Peace
Cindy
www.cindyforcongress.org

I have some problems with what rocyahsoul said. First taxes pay for other things besides war. Instead of not paying taxes we should be trying to get our tax dollars to go to social services. In the end Bush wants to bankrupt the country to privatize or get rid of social services.

Also, rocyahsoul said:

"This article is essentially about Iraq War Veterans justifying accepting illegal orders to gun down unarmed men with the least investigatory practice."

I feel, as Phil Ochs often sings in his songs, that soldiers are still responsible morally for those they kill or hurt, but these soldiers are taking responsibility by coming forward. I have great respect for them. They aren't justifying their crimes; they are taking the responsibility that most soldiers don't. As progressives we tend to not like soldiers or police for obvious reasons. That's why what these soldiers are doing is so admirable; they believed in the dominant culture and were still able to see how their belief in what America should be is not what America is. This is hard feat for anyone, but especially for those in the military or police. Unfortunately most people live in denial. As progressives what we ultimately want is for those who have more conservative beliefs to think about what they believe and compare it to what is real. We have to be nonjudgmental when people we don't agree with are going through this process.

That last paragraph sticks to my craw. Not only are we a viewing nation/audience _conditioned_ to be cop-worshippers. we are soldier-worshippers as well.
For decades we've watched TV shows from "The Untouchables" to "Dragnet" to "Adam-12" to "Law and Order" etc., etc., etc.
At the movies we have been fed a steady diet of WW2 flicks from B-actioners to John Wayne "get-you-japs" to epics such as "The Longest Day" and "Pearl Harbor." Wake up an smell the propaganda. Sure our taxes and our parents helped defeat Hitler and Tojo, but that does not automatically make us or our post-WW2, contemporary armed forces or the Military-Industrial complex the second coming of Saint Michael and his angelic hordes.
Just the opposite may be true. We have been conditioned by Hollywood and massive, Pentagon-sponsored multimillion dollar campaigns to see joining the US killing machine as an existential "be all that you can be."
The tribal impulse is strong and a bit of propaganda goes a long way in resonating emotionally. Evolution took care of that, but, in the end, we are free agents and we can overcome our conditioning!
As I've always said, "He who controls how you feel about yourself controls...your soul."
I am willing to spill my blood on any given day should anyone invade this country and will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone should this happen. I just don't care to see our great Jeffersonian Republic degenerate into a corporation-driven empire killing people in foreign lands because they were unlucky enough to be born in land that floats on a sea of oil (or some such resource)...

"The majority of the American people are very dissatisfied with the Iraq war now and would be happy to get out of it."

I wonder if people were saying that about the Peleponnesian War, the Crusades, and all the other wars there have been. And if they had their 'winter soldier' testimonies. And if humanity will ever learn to collaborate instead of conflagrate.

None of these guys will be able to run for president and win. There will be some group called "Abu Ghraib Guards for Truth" that will smear any veteran opposing this war.

Gail,

Thanks for answering. I said it as a joke knowing full well Romney's "patriotic sons" would not go into the armed forces. Typical Republicans, willing to sacrifice 'other people's kids' to commit murder and mayhem, while they profit in the stock market of the death and destruction industries. Managing those portfolios is a full time job. Ask 'Shotgun Dick Cowboy' who managed to avoid the draft in peacetime as he had more important things to do.

I'm waiting for the day when our military personnel decide "30 pieces of silver" isn't worth it, and just walk off the job. Another reminder of an historical fact. Look up 'the Christmas Truce of 1914' and pass the word around.

Peace, Harmony, Compassion, Understanding, and real brotherhood around the globe. It's 2008 AD, not BC.

As long as our politicians keep taking their orders from the most powerful God fearing/hating nation on earth (Israel) nothing will change!

The American Public will never see this! During the Super Bowl which was viewed by 94% of the U.S., CBS-60 Minutes had a documentary entitled "Fathers, Sons and Brothers". It was the personal stories about soldiers in these illegal wars. Since only 6% of the domestic TV audience were not viewing the Super Bowl, the media knew no one would be watching.

This article is essentially about Iraq War Veterans justifying accepting illegal orders to gun down unarmed men with the least investigatory practice. Most of whom are carrying these orders out then celebrating the human splatter, especially when they're in not much danger at all. I've found much video evidence to support this statement. I've personally received correspondence from Iraq War Veterans stating their enjoying killing and promising to kill for the sake of spiting my antiwar sentiment. That the Veterans against the war are less than a tenth of a percent of the military currently accepting orders from a convicted war criminal speaks to their least introspection of their present obvious criminality.

That this gang of criminal murderers be brought to the US and continue gun empowered and unprosecuted is par for the war ending course as is the well expected spike in the murder rate America will suffer for embracing these careless than to question murder, murderers.

I see bringing these men home unprosecuted as a setup to establish positional unity with the nuclear target population that is the most militantly advanced nation on Earth, the USA.

I read of Marines who accepted and carried out orders to murder an entire village in Afghanistan. Anyone who knows the least bit about the assault of Fallujah knows the extent of the criminality which has been carried out on the Iraqi population. These brute, murderous, "50 caliber weapon wielding from cool truck", criminals are the people who will be called to police America in a police state. They have been murdering impoverished foreigners without question for years.

You'll get laid like soldout Nader as head of your own nonprofit organization. It's all about applying for federal grants to pay employees a decent though under taxable wage, get them tax deductible fund raising and provide for them out of the nonprofit organizations funds what they need that their salaries don't afford them.

A solution to stop paying federal taxes is to save up enough to start a nonprofit, work as CEO of your nonprofit paying yourself less than is taxable, setup your nonprofit to provide to the needy what the rest is of what you need apart from what you pay yourself as Chief Executive of your nonprofit.

Everyone of you federal tax payers is KNOWINGLY contributing to this egregious crime against humanity.

http://www.myspace.com/russiansidereddawn

Come a Christmas morn, may I find that dear old Santa has
has rendered Murdock in manicles to a federal prison convicted of treason.

This takes bigger cojones than killing for fun and profit.

Didn't you know that this would all unfold? Did you really think attacking an Islamic nation would reduce terrorism? Did you really believe that removing a dictator in Iraq wouldn't hand power to the fundamentalists? Has any occupying force in the middle of an opposing hornets nest ever prevailed? Wasn't it obvious before it all started that the soldiers would be magnets for anti-Western hatred and would commit atrocities as a natural reaction?

France did. The UN did. And I think a lot of us did but we lacked a voice - Britany Speers said it was the way to go and the media were right on board.

It's 'Crimes against Humanity' time and don't let Murdock get away.

Yeah, tomorrow the IVAW will be marching from Independence Hall to Valley Forge, us old folks, me only old woman, and many men from Vietnam, of whom one is a good pal gave testimony in 'WINTER SOLDIER I', will march the final 2 miles.
They are being threatened of course, if anyone is near Philly at 9:15 AM see ya. Go to IVAW.org, T-Shirts, donations, hotel rooms, transportation, these women and men are paying $12oo/day to give TRUTH.

David Grayling, if you're reading this: My guess is that this topic is huge and that, in some cases, genetics do play a role. So, too, does what we've been TAUGHT. As an example, a soldier is taught to shoot, kill, etc. If these things came naturally to us, we'd know how to do them from infancy on -- but don't. This, to me, says something very hopeful about the human species, i.e., what if we were taught to do no harm instead?

And what makes for truly wise individuals and true role models of human potential? What has that person done to be wise, or what have some people done to be extraordinary and principled human beings?

It's my understanding and experience that it's the CHOICE an individual makes that's a problem or not. For example, it's a choice to be selfish or not. What does the individual choose? Selfishness or generosity? It's a choice to exercise personal restraint or not. What does the person choose? It's a choice to step out with courage, or generate an excuse. What does the person choose? It's a choice to believe X or not. Does the person choose to believe it or not? A person can be honest or dishonest. What does the person choose?... etc. Each of us has made a bazillion choices and, if we look carefully and take responsibility, we can see that we've individually and collectively reaped the consequences of those choices, too
-- positive and negative. In my experience, the good news is that if an individual makes better choices, the consequences are often much better, too.

Some people have said that ignorance, too, is a choice. I don't HAVE TO be stupid.

Yeah, it's so true that OUR TROOPS were used and abused for the empirical and greedy gains of our corporate oil vampires. I was mad as hell when I first saw they were using our troops to go in and get oil. Still am! The person who said our troops are as much a victim as everyone else is right. bush and cheney and the rest care NOTHING for these troops. NOTHING. And those people with their torn flags and magnets on their SUV's care NOTHING for the troops. It's all a scam. A big scam, and OUR TROOPS have paid with their lives and sanities and souls.

God Bless these veterans who tell the truth. THEY are the true patriots and not the lying politicians and their followers who are soiling the flag day by day.

I SUPPORT THESE TROOPS who are the True Americans --- and True HUMAN BEINGS that can see right from wrong and have the courage to stand up for justice and decency. They love this country so much that they are willing to point out where things have gone horribly wrong. I have the utmost respect for them.

And for you David.... This IS about genetics. Evolution. But unlike the movies and TV, it doesn't happen in a 90 minute brain fart... These folks will help change our consciousness a cell at a time... Just like walking on our flippers for a few hundred thousand years gave us toenails for better traction....

Hey hey everybody... If you're even reading this article you know how much these men and women have put their asses on the line... Now they're home to save others from the same fate... And in doing so are putting their necks in jeopardy of the Bush Samuri teams... How about we quit wishing and hoping for the media to cover it and write them and ASK that it be covered ???? Someone out there knows all the big hitter's email addresses... Don't you??? If not, we dig and put them on here, or just dig em up for our own uses. These people need US to GET INVOLVED... Not just watch like we've been doing....

Iraq Veterans Against the War

Well my brothers, what you are doing is a hopeful start in the healing process - your actions are the part of the process where conscious ownership of aligning with the darkness in ourselves that brought harm to others is acknowledged publicly.

There will be much work to do as the nation seems to cling to denial of the horrors we have engaged in in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The media is the monster, says Stiv.

No, humans are the monsters, Stiv. They are the ones who carry out the torturing and the killing and most of them enjoy it. It's part of our nature, Stiv, an unfortunate part but we have to own it whether we like it or not.

The only way I can see that human nature will change is to tinker with the genes, get rid of those faulty components which make us so destructive and brutal.

If we don't, eventually we'll destroy ourselves.

www.dangerouscreation.com

It would have been far better if these people had thought about what they were going to do before they went to Iraq. There is nothing surprising about what a soldier learns, and what is expected. The basic fact that you are told several times a day is that it is your job to "find them, fix them and kill them." Finding the" enemy" is not difficult; it is any one not in the same uniform as you. Killing them turns whoever or whatever they are into one thing: an insurgent. These former troppers knew this and yet they went. Suppose they had, instead, adhered to the old song "suppose they gave a war and nobody came." They would not now have to regret what they did or saw others do.

Beyond the obvious crimes, we the American People owe so much to our armed services, regardless of what was done by them.

The heroes of old times are no longer even close to what our reality has morphed into, and where John Wayne "did it" for the 60s, these pro-peace and pro-civil rights marchers are this millennium's new heroes.

The soldiers are but a tool of the Prez, and he (and his staff) are the one who are responsible and answerable (to America & the rest of the Universe) for the war crimes, atrocities, and beyond understanding excesses of zeal.

Especially since, his "mandate" was an illegal act of stealing the election in the first place - otherwise those of the "majority" might carry themselves the taint of the criminal acts. With the power to impeach wrestled to the table, through illegal corporate domination of the mass mis-media, along with direct Anthrax death threats upon the Dem's leaders and newspapers -- we common Americans have been victimized by a usurper demagogue whose lying murderous thuglicans have stolen trillions of dollars from where they rightfully are needed and owed.

We need to take justice into our hands, and take back our money, and add another 1% (if necessary) to that overloaded prison population, those who directly profited knowingly from the crimes against humanity.

Namaste
… … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … & … ML King … … Inspiration … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — MLK

Who doesn't know an Iraq Vet with horror stories? The media is a million miles away from reality.

The rules of engagement basically says, "Shoot first, and ask questions later."

Genocide for oil.

"Romney implied that his sons were also doing America and Americans a great service by working hard on his campaign to get him elected as the next President of this country."

Yeah, Gail- that line by Willard Romney cracked me up, too. What an ASS. Loved that line about the "children of priviledge" and their "support of the troops (None)" as well! Oh that they get their due reward for what they have done.

I'm sure many of you know that there is a video called The Winter Soldier about the Vietnam vets testifying to what they had witnessed and what they themselves had actually done. Even half-way through I wasn't sure if I could listen to any more of it. I was overwhelmed with horror and sadness for what was done to the Vietnamese people, and for the young men for what they had done and for what they had become. Sadistic, perverted, pshychopaths. Most of them will be deeply disturbed the rest of their lives. Many took their own lives. And the denial machine was churning out spin in the media at that time - just like now.

And yes, the video shows Kerry making that famous speech.

I was haunted for weeks. I could not get the images out of my mind.

War is insanity. (no, I don't consider Iraq a war - it was an invasion and it is now an occupation)

It isn't just the delusion that the US is also good: it's also the engrained trust in and admiration for the US warrior which makes Americans blink at these atrocities. And it is just the same in the UK, where Hero Harry is lauded for calling in airstrikes to blow Afghans to smithereens. Even in the barbaric code of the warrior, calling in someone else to destroy your opponent at a distance is hardly heroic. But heaven forfend we Brits should ever suggest that men in uniform are really boys hooked on the excitement of danger and the resulting adrenalin rush, and that such boys readily commit crimes of violence in the sadistic anarchy that is war. Two thousand years after Christ, it is still the soldier and not the christian who is venerated.

Demerara,
You have a good point. And yeah, we need a truly democratic Security Council.

peaceman February 29th, 2008 12:51 pm

"Somebody update me …did Romney's five sons join the Army or Marines to fight the terrorists over their so we don't have to fight em' over here."

peaceman,

As I recall, when someone asked him a similar question about his sons service, Romney implied that his sons were also doing America and Americans a great service by working hard on his campaign to get him elected as the next President of this country. I remember laughing when he answered the question.

I see where one of the British Royal children is front line
Afganistan. To paraphrase that fabulously erudite journalist, Greg Schuster, who's pimping the Bush twins?

ladybug,
Sometimes I see the US as the war machine for most of Western Europe, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand as these countries' economies work together in the so-called free market model. The Iraq war is for the long term control of oil and the world economy (India and China)...and the US population can theoretically vote into office a President that can work for peace. That didn't happen in 2000 nor 2004 when George Bush lost both elections. So even though it appears that the american population is naive...I think that they are being duped by forces more powerful than governments. The only way out is to overhall the entire system and to put more check and balances into it. Also, the UN security council should include more countries in the permanent council because US, UK and France always vote for war.

"The majority of the American people are very dissatisfied with the Iraq war now and would be happy to get out of it. But Americans are bred deep into their psyches to think of America as a good country and, I think, much harder than just the hurdle of getting troops out of Iraq is to get Americans to realise the terrible things we do in the name of the United States."

Sad, but SO TRUE!

To everyone in on this discussion: Please support these brave veterans with your $$ for publicity and travel expenses. And, please tell everyone you know. To learn about how to view the hearings live, please visit the Iraq Veterans Against the War website - www.ivaw.org. Also, please visit www.5yearstoomany.org.

Reminds me of the war crimes that occured in the Tiger Force massacre story from the Vietnam War that the Toledo Blade won a Pulitzer prize for in 2003 for unearthing the story that the US Army was denying to the public - kept being buried in the Army's archives since 1975.

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/SRTIGERFORCE/110190136

Finally! Torture experts. They should have no trouble getting jobs at the IRS or running Tasers for Corrections Corporation of America.

The last paragraph of this article explains exactly what is wrong with people in the US, and why is so easy to lie to them. I've never met a more naive population.

What is going on in Iraq is called genocide not war. Until that correction is made to the discussion, everything else said will remain non-contextual and therefore largely nonsensical.

The US is building an elaborate infrastructure in Iraq to bolster its long term interests in the Middle East.

The Euro/US alliance controlled Iraq during Saddam's tenure and before. The 'invasion' was to decimate a society under the pretext of war.

And what is happening in Iraq is genocide of ALL former systems; social, political, economic, etc. What is planned when this phase is over will be a rebuild effort.

There is absolutely no difference between our involvement in Iraq and the extermination of the American Indians prior to establishing the 'free' country of the US or what occurred in the Philippines and so many other places around the globe.

Iraq is simply the victim of an aggressive program of genocide. The ruling elite have always used this sort of tactic to destroy and then rebuild. And, the justifications for genocidal programs are always false, such as 9/11.

Anyone who considers what is happening in Iraq to be a 'war' is completely deceived. Who is fighting? Only those trained and armed by Euro and US dollars on both sides. Wake up and smell the blood! And stop supporting a 'war' machine that is really the same old elitist paradigm that practices widespread and specifically focused genocides to maintain its worldwide dominance.

Keep talking guys. Name names. Insist that the children of privilege answer to you personally for not giving you the gear you needed.

Hats off to the brave winter soldiers. This is the kind of troop I like to support.

Today's soldier is a propaganda tool for the bush adminstration. They flash some picture of a "battle hardened" soldier somewhere in a desert and say "Tell HIM that you don't support him!". Even more rediculous is the paranoid statement "You're with us or with the terrorists!"
We constantly see people that are supposed to be fighting against the 'war' go weak kneed and cave in when someone says "Well you support our troops don't you?". They give up because they have NO CLUE what "Supporting the troops" means.
The best way I can think of to "Screw the troops" is to send them off to an illegal, immoral conflict after filling them with lies. Afterward, using them as a propaganda tool and trying to get people to glorify their status of "defending America" (which they aren't doing)
All America has done for the last 6 years is screw their troops.
We all know that war crimes are being committed. The entire campaign is a war crime. See the following link to the Rome Stature of the Internation Criminal Court (Part 2 Article 8 Para 2) to see just how many War Crimes have already been committed and are STILL being committed. Here's the link: http://untreaty.un.org/cod/icc/statute/romefra.htm

Great work fellows. You have my whole-hearted support. But I still think we have had our last election. The neo-cons have everthing in place to declare MATRIAL LAW thus cancell the elections and give the world notice they are in charge. GOD I HOPE I'M WRONG.

Support the troops. google votevet. Love my county more than you Repubs and DLC democrats. From those of us who are female, educated and young, I'm a bitch, won't sleep with you, Bush. Conversely, I'm a slut, will sleep with anybody but you, Bush McCain, Clinton. As for you Obama, prove to me your're not an 18 year old infantry grunt. Nader, fight the good fight, let em know what they're not getting for their buck. Since VA hospitals suck, single payer looks good. Forgive me for being a whole lot PTSD here in Anbar.

Is is FSTV, my favorite station, 9415 on DISH that will be showing the testimonies live.

I just hope that the administration doesn't use the evidence to prosecute these soldiers for war crimes.

Now THESE men are heroes!!!

The media is the monster.

Instead of investigating why Roger Clemens took steroids, Bush's whole presidency needs to be investigated, including our agression in Iraq and war crimes that US troops committed there and in Afghanistan.

Our soldiers have been victimized just like the Iraqis. They've been trained to hate and kill so when 9/11 came along it provided an excuse to lash out. The Iraqi were not responsible for 9/11, but became the scapegoats when war propaganda pushed the case for war and Big Media did nothing to scrutinize it.

There've been several incidents caught on video of murder of innocent Iraqis--this is nothing new. The larger issue for Americans is clearly the risks posed by untreated Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. The attitude of the military establishment reflects contempt for medical care--look no farther than Walter Reed and the neglect of returning veterans like Gerald Cassidy.

Just how long before some untreated veteran lights up your street or neighborhood? Now this isn't to say that the vast majority of veterans will be outstanding citizens upon their return. The ruling elite use the veterans then spit them out. They have no more concern for the health of our veterans than that of their pets.

Now if all the rah rah people would actually support the troops, they might be able to open their eyes to the scope of the problem. Instead, like Vietnam, PTSD is ignored, VA benefits curtailed, and surprise we have mentally ill veterans wandering homeless, untreated. If it's at all like Vietnam, veterans will have to literally fight for their medical care.

Here's what I wrote to an Iraq veteran on this issue:

I'd read recently about the death of Bill Davis, a solid
Chicago-based organizer for Vietnam Veterans Against
the War. That group (http://www.vvaw.org/) has a lot
of experience fighting the VA. Davis talked about his
brothers and sisters knowingly getting maced by VA
goons for peaceably trying to get the VA to address
vital veteran health care needs that were going
ignored.

The video of Bill Davis really showed me the toughness
of veteran activists. I watched Part 2 from 8/4/07.
taken just before his death. It is here:
http://www.vvaw.org/press/?id=744

I think this is really great, but there is something I don't understand. Are they testifying before congress or at their own convention? Also, which satellite TV station? If it's not before congress and if it's on a station like Free Speech TV (which is only carried on Dish network) their may not be any news coverage at all. I'm not puting FSTV down I'm just saying most people don't watch it, or can't. Does anyone know the answers to these questions? I would hate for the public to miss such an important event.

On a different subject Truthmonger is Soooo right about Blackwater. One of the often appearing commondreams writers (I don't remember who) appeared before congress to testify about Blackwater's brutality; this was just before Iraq asked Blackwater to leave. A soldier from Blackwater did a U-TUBE reply (a personal one not an official one), and he was NUTS. He kept going on about how when society falls he'd be the one with a gun robbing your garden instead of saying we don't commit war crimes. It was hard to understand what he was even trying to say.

These guys coming forward shows their courage. Now instead of being lionized for telling the truth will be ruthlessly attacked by the fascist elite. When the story of Abu Ghrab first broke the only ones who were punished and demoted were the ones that came forward and told the truth.
The ones that lied were all protected and their carreers continued to advance. Criminals are the judges on these cases and the ones with the power to cover up and punish those who tell the truth. Our congress, spineless and confused does nothing thereby becoming accomplice's.
We should do what we can to protect the real heroe's [these men who have stepped forward] and punish the real culprits. [the ones who allow and cover up this activity]

We had a nice show of support for these guys in Santa Cruz, Ca. last night.

Somebody update me ...did Romney's five sons join the Army or Marines to fight the terrorists over their so we don't have to fight em' over here.

As more and more see the light, more and more will leave the ranks, or as we civillians say, walk off the job.

No more cannon fodder for the merchants of death and war profiteering.

PAX

Actually, I think they all should run for office and tell the truth about war. Wouldn't it be great if all the soldiers in Iraq got together and demanded to be sent to Afghanistan to finish the job or be sent home. Then again, I'm sure Blackwater members would probably just arrest them.

Let's all hope that the media gives these people a fair shake and not just brush it off with one of Blitzer's "and that's what's happening right now".

Also, I hope none of these guys plans on running for office in the future so they can be labled traitors by anyone the press can dig up.

These people are very brave, and I hope the best for them.