"We have no interest in democracy, because that would empower the very people we are trying to control."

This is absolutely correct.

It's easy to see why Iran is generally pissed off with the US, UK and others, over the latest sanctions. We have the US freely arming Israel, Pakistan and India, none of whom have signed up to the NPT, and who all possess significant nuclear arsenals. Meanwhile, Iran is enriching Uranium as part of a completely legal atomic energy scheme. They may or may not be planning to build a nuclear weapon.
There is an awful lot wrong with the World at the moment, and many of the problems have been caused by our own governments, with their endless meddling and manipulation.
It's fair to say that current US/UK foreign policy is geared to destabilizing various countries, by setting up dictatorships and supplying them with the latest weapons.
We have no interest in democracy, because that would empower the very people we are trying to control.

"Pakistan will find itself with a hostile India to the East and ruthless Americans at their back."

Yeah ... poor Pakistan. No amount of kissing American butt for the last 60 years has helped at all. The endless mischief they've been upto these last 5 decades clearly hasnt yielded results. Maybe now they can start focussing on feeding their people rather than amassing F-16's and nuclear missiles. Considering Pakistan spends a lot more 'per capita' on their military budget than India or China, its time they put an end to it and attempt to focus their energies on attaining a better standard of living for their people.

The 'hostile India' theory has been used since their independence and the 'hostile Pakistan' theory has been used in India as well. Just 2 months ago Pakistan tested an advanced nuclear capable missile with North Korean technology that can reach any city in India. This is a zero-sum game and there are no winners in a south asian arms race.

" One speculates whether the interests of a monied oligarchic class lie in bloated budgets of modern weapon systems, the cloak of nationalism and defense stifling all discussion. "

Terribly true in America as well as India.

And it is the American corporate Big Oil oligarchs who are busy militarizing Afghanistan and Central Asia to gain hegemony over oil and natural gas resources.

I would imagine this will only stimulate the regional arms race as Pakistan will find itself with a hostile India to the East and ruthless Americans at their back.

From a moral standpoint, what could be more immoral than making and selling weapons of mass destruction to nearly any country (or cause; re: Iran-Contra)? Death and misery are the outcomeson the receiving end and debt on the sending end. The military-industrial complex that President Eisenhower warned about so long ago and their enablers commit mass-immorality. From the stand-point of the nation of the suppliers, export sales is only slightly less immoral than the purchase and use by the manufacturing nation for use in an illegal occupation. In this case, the citizens of that nation must pay for the weapons and carry the burden of blame for allowing them to be used.

thank you wmC for the quote.it cannot be said any better.

besides arguing against a large military budget, my argument was against the specific systems india is acquiring.the new russian aircraft carrier is 2 billion dollars, with another 1.5 billion for the aircraft. the hercules transport aircraft worth 1 billion is specifically to project military power to distant/ non contiguous areas. submarines are to disrupt shipping lanes.none of these are essential to counter the problems in kashmir, and none will help in a tussle with pakistan or china, both nuclear powers, or any other major power.call me naive, but now there is a large propertied class in both india and pakistan, there may minor skirmishes but no war which will ruin the financial stability of both. and there is no forseeable threat from the other neighbours.
as the experience of israel in lebanon showed, defense can be managed with far less cost than offense.so not only these weapons rob resources from the citizens, they do not achieve what their declared objectives.

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children....This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross." - -D. D. Eisenhower, 1953.

Arundhati Roy, herself, could not said it better.

Wars will end when there is no one left to pull a trigger.

Indians are aware that a Gandhian approach of non-violence and ahimsa will probably get their country bombed back to the stone-age thanks to out-of-control neighbours like Pakistan (which by all accounts has done its best to destabilize India by supporting all manner of terrorists since their aggressive ground wars failed) and China on the other hand that will never fail to strike even as it smiles beningnly (as Nehru learned the hard way !).

In this context weaponization as they see it is a must. Since russia has been back-tracking on some military deals, the only other viable option for them is us (the good ol USA). Hence ...

Some naive people tend to believe that there is some logical connection between poverty and advanced weapons systems. At least in India the poor people are responsible for their abject poverty due to the karmic cycle, unless you want to reject their sincere beliefs outright.

More over the weaponizing is for the benefit of the emerging middle class and the billionaires, the highest number in all of Asia including China. The only path to salvation is through more and more powerful weapons.

The purpose of Gates' trip is to build a military axis with India/Indoniesia to "contain" China, which will inspire an arms race with China - this race being a means to an end - to channel more public funds and public attention away from social needs and toward the Pentagon.

wikipedia: As deputy director and director of America's leading intelligence agency for many years, Gates and his CIA staff have been faulted for failing to accurately gauge the decline and disintegration of the Soviet Union. More particularly, Gates has been criticized for concocting evidence to show that the Soviet Union was stronger than it actually was, and also for repeatedly skewing intelligence to promote a particular worldview.

Gates was confirmed by the full Senate by a margin of 95-2

India needs more weapons. To protect herself from Pakistan who needs more weapons. To protect herself from India.....who needs more...

yes, a threader shared, WRAITHEON

And when "Killing just isn't good enough" call General Dynamics, and we'll help you vaporize tomorrow's threats* today!"

*kiddies!

Deepa:

Absolutely beautiful and perceptive comments. It is always gratifying to find an Indian with a proper sense of history and perspective, who is not blinded by the endless, relentless American propaganda at all levels. Indians, like so many others around the world, are enamored by European/Western measures of civilization and decency, rather often at the cost of deriding their own culture and history. The myths of American prosperity and democracy, versus Indian poverty and chaos, are well-perpetrated, and would be almost laughable in the face of some of the simple statistics you provide.

Indeed, the essence of kara korum's arguments is sound- India definitely does not need a bloated defense behemoth (despite the overwhelming geopolitical pressures, particularly applied from her many unstable neighbors). India has a long way to go towards eliminating poverty and other social ills. Moreover, the greatest lesson for any self-respecting nation in the world today would be to be HIGHLY SUSPICIOUS OF AMERICAN FRIENDSHIP. Beginning with the early native Americans, all the way to the hapless Iraqis today- well meaning people over a 500+ year history have paid grievously for having extended the hand of friendship to this ruthless, heartless, all-consuming corporate machine. Its ability to kill, plunder and destroy is absolutely breathtaking. It has perfected the art of propaganda and brainwashing to almost unmatched levels, aided by its North Atlantic neighbor.

I strongly believe that the relative strength and stability that India enjoys today, along with its robust institutions-these are to be greatly lauded, and these for the most part have been achieved not by aping or emulating any Western model, but by following India's own best instinct as an ageless civilization. India's non-aligned political stance, combined with controlled, sustainable economic growth via a well-conceived pluralistic approach- these have paid rich dividends for a nation with unimaginable problems of complexity.

India has consistently beaten back incursions into her sovereignty, including the Kargil episode, thanks to her valiant soldiers, and the love of the vast number of her people for their country (I do not intend to wrap this in the bogus "patriotism" cloak- I merely intend it to demonstrate that India, as a pluralist nation, has taken a pledge to include all her people in the process of nation-building. This has not been easy, and is not perfect by a long shot- BUT INDEED INDIA HAS DONE IT HER OWN WAY).

Therefore, my primary counsel to political leaders in India would be to exercise extreme caution in dealing with the greatest imperialist threat in this unipolar world today. A thorough study of unvarnished American history should be a must for students everywhere, including here in the U.S. itself. The latter alone, I believe, will go a long way in preventing the civilizationally destructive phenomenon of a village idiot from Texas being given the reigns of a military power to rain terror upon the world.

I have far too much respect for the Indian intellect to believe that this would be allowed to happen (i.e., joining hands with an imperial machine on the basis of some perceived temporary gains, including collective hatred of Muslims, as some Indians tend to do).

India, to me, is at her best when she develops friendship with all nations, rich or poor, irrespective of ethnic makeup or geographic location, and exercises her own wisdom in all matters, based on common human decency and values. This approach, combined with a common-sense instinct for self-defense and security, will make her strong, secure and well-respected. India needs to learn from Bhisma, Chanakya, Ashoka and Akbar, among others.

kara.korum: it remains a desperately poor nation...and a quarter of population surviving on less than a dollar a day"

Even though I fully agree with the essence of your argument, the above statement portrays a person who failed to look into the mirror. According to the official report, there are about 38 million Americans who are below poverty line. In addition to that there is a class which is called "the missing class" in America. The people who belong to this class are those who are living at the edge of the poverty line. There are about 57 million Americans who belong to this class. That means, one in three Americans is poor. The problem with most of the Americans is that they live in "American myths", which conceal the reality about the state of the majority of its citizens.

It is also better to remember the state of the Katrina victims.

More than 48 million Americans do not have health care.

So the reality is: poverty is endemic in all countries. One of the main causes for this is that the elected government no longer represents common people but the rich and the transnational companies. Gates is in India as a BROKER of weapons industries. He and Condi Rice were in the Middle East for the same purpose.

Why are other countries buying weapons? Because these countries have seen what the rogue the US, and Britain have done in Iraq. So they are, in a way, forced to secure their countries from the threat of these rogue nations. So the culture of fear is created by the US and the European countries in order to sell their weapons to other countries.

Kargil war was won by India by its own military strength. Donot attribute it to the US. Pakistan was and is the closest ally of the US, and has been helping it in its terrorist activities in Jammu & Kashmir.

"We have to deal with the world as we find it." - Gates

The world as we find it, or the world as "we make it"?

The mentality in this administration is astonishing. It couldn't possibly be more perverted!

Let's see..... how many F-16 Fighter Jets have we sold to Pakistan?

the choice of new arms sought by india is puzzling. it remins a desparately poor nation with the largest number of malnourished (1/3 of indian children), a high infant mortality rate (65/1000) and a quarter of the population surviving on less than a dollar a day. A lengthy stroll in the poorer neighbourhoods/ rural countryside will demonstarte people dying of starvation. Dissent is rife in central/ northeast and kashmir.This begs the question- what use are the fighter aircraft, aircraft carriers, modern submrines-offensive and expensive toys- to all these people.since food ,clean water, health care and shelter are unavailable to a large minority, what difference does it make to them who rules them.
The interests of the state do not coincide with the interests of the citizens.
the indian army had to withdraw , wounded, from srilanka and could not recapture kargil without us pressure on pakistan.all these expensive weapons would not remedy this.during the 1971 war with pahistan, the aircraft carrier was not used on the western front, where there was a risk that pakistani aircraft may sink it. and since india has not professed any geopolitical ambitions, why spend large sums on weapons not contributing to defense.however, there is no discussion of these issues in the indian media.
one speculates whether the interests of a monied oligarchic class lie in bloated budgets of modern weapon systems, the cloak of nationalism and defense stifling all discussion

Fear and greed is what makes an oilygarchy work. Perhaps our Secretary of War might inquire as to the health and welfare of the Bhopal survivors.

The military-industrial corporate oligarchy using the resources of the fascist state it has created for its excessive profiteering.