One issue that will not be discussed in tonight's presidential debate between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama is our nation's burgeoning military budget. Earlier this month, the Bush administration announced a proposed military budget of $614 billion, not counting the full cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. This represents the highest level of spending since World War II, even though our most dangerous adversary is a dispersed terrorist network measured in the tens of thousands, not a nuclear-armed Soviet Union whose armed forces were measured in the millions.
If Secretary of Defense Robert Gates and Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Michael Mullen have their way, these massive levels of spending will continue even after the end of the war in Iraq, with a "floor" on military spending of 4% of our Gross Domestic Product.
Not only have the major presidential candidates been largely silent on these record expenditures, but they want to increase them. Barack Obama has said we will probably need to "bump up" the military budget in a new administration, and both he and Hillary Clinton have committed themselves to increasing the size of the armed forces by tens of thousands of troops. On the Republican side of the aisle, John McCain and Mike Huckabee are looking to spend even more than their Democratic counterparts.
We are long overdue for a national debate on how much we actually need to defend America in an era in which our greatest threat is the possibility that a terrorist group might get its hands on nuclear weapons. Even if Iraq had possessed nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons, military force would not have been the most effective way to address the problem. The lesson of Iraq is that rigorous inspections are the best way to root out dangerous weapons programs.
More importantly, the most likely route for a terrorist group to get its hands on nuclear weapons is not by receiving them as a "gift" from an existing nuclear weapons state, but by stealing bombs or bomb-making materials from a nation like Russia where they are not adequately secured. Much progress has been made on this front through the Nunn-Lugar cooperative threat reduction program, which invests in dismantling and protecting so-called loose nukes and bomb-making materials in Russia and other nations around the world. Despite these successes, there is much more to be done. Yet the Bush administration has actually proposed cutting Nunn-Lugar funding in this year's budget, to $414 million dollars, or less than two days worth of spending on the war in Iraq.
As for conventional threats, the United States is already spending more for defense than all the other nations in the world combined. If all of these lavish expenditures were needed to protect the country that would be one thing. But tens of billions of dollars are being wasted on systems like the F-22 fighter plane, the V-22 Osprey (a helicopter that can be transformed into a conventional aircraft), the Virginia class submarine, and an unworkable and unnecessary missile defense system. All of these programs were initiated during the Cold War, and none of them is suited to current challenges. Likewise, proposals for troop increases presume that we might once again engage in a military occupation like the current conflict in Iraq - an unwise course which should be ruled out in any new defense strategy.
Furthermore, there are far more urgent uses for some of the funds now devoted to the military, from investments designed to reverse the current recession, to spending to curb the threat of climate change, to beefed up spending on diplomacy. A recent report from the Institute for Policy Studies has revealed that our government currently spends 88 times as much on the military as we do on addressing climate change. And even Secretary of Defense Robert Gates has called for an expansion of the U.S. diplomatic corps, which is currently smaller than the crews needed to run one aircraft carrier task force. To its credit, the Bush administration has requested funded for 1,000 new diplomats in this year's budget, but this is just a small down payment on what is needed.
So, rather than artificially reserving a fixed share of our national income for military spending, we should adjust the budget based on a critical assessment of what is actually needed to protect the country. If this debate doesn't begin during this year's presidential and congressional elections, it will be that much harder for the next president to rein in our current practice of overspending on the Pentagon.
William D. Hartung is the director of the Arms and Security Initiative at the New America Foundation and a member of the Advisory Board of Foreign Policy In Focus.
Copyright © 2008, Institute for Policy Studies
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68 Comments so far
Show AllJConrad.
>>>
...War on drugs people, war on terror people, homeland security, border security, FBI, and state and county and city locals...
>>>>
Don't forget the "Corrections" Industry. Somebody's got to keep the burgeoning prison population in line. When an area starts to decline because all the good jobs have "moved South", the 'government' (local, state, federal) steps in and builds another jail/prison/'correctional facility'. They know that "idle hands are the Devil's workshop", so they scurry around finding more and more people to incarcerate so the locals can be kept busy guarding them.
Meanwhile all kinds of 'cottage industries' spring up to "serve" the keep-ers and the keep-ees. Halfway houses, alcohol rehab programs, anger management programs, training facilities, domestic violence intervention,and any other damned thing they can think of to make a buck off the misery of those 'bad apples' behind bars. There's no limit to the creativity of America's entrepeneurs.
I'm reminded of that age-old conundrum: "If we were to solve the problem of crime...what in the hell are all those cops gonna do for a living?" More and more honest working people are becoming dependent on the ills that are the consequences of the status quo.
Not to worry, though...the Bushees and their enablers among the Democrats will see to it that more and more of our everyday behavior is being criminalized. Anyway, who cares? Without habeas corpus we can throw ANYbody in jail for ANYthing...and not even explain why. That should keep a lid on any would-be "boat rockers".
Yes America is becoming increasingly militarized and to a degree "occupied" in ways that are so gradual that few see the changes. I had a neighbor when growing up in the Midwest who described to me (he got out of Germany around 1935) how the Nazi system managed to gradually creep into power and eventually no one had a choice !
And to add one more detail to the information thread, due to the military's twisted fetish for secrecy, there is no viable Congressional oversight (which is weak when it functions at all) on the various "black budget" military programs officially called "Special Access Programs".
Many $Billions (exact amount unknown) go into super-secret weapons research and development, special operations and "intelligence", although as we all know, the term "military intelligence" is a classic oxymoron.
And of course Pentagon accounting is such a mess that it is impossible to determine exactly how even conventional funding is used.
Pax !
JConrad,
Interesting information from your friend. Seems more and more like the Third Reich everyday. If I remember the stats, Germany had a population of 60-65,000,000 people in 1939. Adolph created jobs galore and the people were working 60 hours a week. 16,000,000 were in the armed forces and help was still needed for the war effort and Labor facilities were built around industrial areas near railroad depots and 'extraordinary rendition' to these detainee centers began in Germany first, then in the occupied countries of people the nazis looked down upon. Some were seen as unfit for work and were sent to other 'detention facilities' outside of Deutchland for further evaluation and or to be 'euthanized' as these 'enemy combatants' were a threat to 'Homeland Security'. Remember, after the 1933 Reichstag fire, the terrorists had to be rounded up and detained to protect the 'Fatherland.' The father-figure with the mustache rallied the country together as he was the 'decider,' One 'enabling' law after another was passed, and except for his die-hard devotees, many Germans found fault with the 'deciders' orders, but were scared to protest.
It is said between 5-7,000,000 Germans died in World War Two. ( I'm not talking about Jews, but the 'master race' people. ) For what? But you see the way I describe it. Like it was nothing. Anything can be rationalized or justified whether right or wrong. We do it everyday.
Even Leo Strauss, a German Jew who left the 'Fatherland' admired the strenght of the fascists over the indecisive left-wing that he percieved as weak. He landed a job at the infamous Chicago School of Economics. Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld were influenced by him, during their stay in the Windy City.
Hey, J...Better a dull Saturday night in the Rockies than a night of uncertainty in Iraq or Afghanistan where an Americans might bust into your house and start shooting and commit atrocities with women and children.
Stiglitz is good! I've read some of his stuff. Unfortunately the politicians haven't. What a waste of everything.
Peaceman:
A dull Saturday night in the Rockies.
Thanks, but a friend who lives in a small town near the Canadian border already sent me the KBR detention article. His community now has about 10 times the number of law enforcement people of different persuasions than they had a decade ago. War on drugs people, war on terror people, homeland security, border security, FBI, and state and county and city locals.
The threat mentality has become a very strange and surreal employment agency, and none of these people have a sense of humor.
And I posted something on the cost of the Iraq war crimes earlier that was slighty dated with the current estimate being $2.7 TRILLION ! I keep seeing people use the $1 TRILLION figure, as I did last year, but that is old news and very misleading.
No ‘Straight Talk’ on Iraq Cost
by Joe Conason
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/21/7203/
“ Hundreds of billions? Sorry, but that vague estimate is probably far too modest, according to a new book by Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz and author Linda J. Bilmes. In “The Three Trillion Dollar War: The True Cost of the Iraq Conflict,†they warn that the war’s “true budgetary cost,†excluding interest, “is likely to reach $2.7 trillion.†Aside from the price of munitions, contractors, transport, fuel and other fixed costs, their calculations are based on the government’s continuing obligation to provide medical care and disability payments for the thousands of wounded Iraqi and Afghanistani veterans over the coming decades.â€
"In other words, what Dem apologist Dan is really telling you..."
Daniel David, Kernel, et al, are not mere Dem apologists, they are hucksters of the worst kind. They want us to believe, once again, that voting for Democrats is going to make huge differences in our lives.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...
J CONRAD If your quote is accurate today (which is very likely, as the entire last three generations of Bush's have been Nazis), then check out this logic:
IF Truth is the greatest enemy of the State
and
IF terrorism is the greatest enemy of our Country
THEN Truth is Terrorism
orTerrorism is Truth
I'm not certain which
If it weren't for Obama and Hillary, we'd have Edwards and Kucinich.
It wasn't McCain who put an Edwards/Kucinich ticket into the doghouse.
tailcap,
Excellent post! Mike Gravel was interviewed on the INN news.net last week and it was an honor for me listening to him speak about the two 'mainstream' candidates of the Democratic Party.
When you look at all that has transpired in the past seven years, the somnabulist public still has hope the Democrats will do the right thing. When curent and past performance is presented, one is accused of pessimism and negativity. Maybe the time hasn't come for "change."
When was the last time a president god elected by campaigning on cutting the military budget? Even as far back as Eisenhower's famous "military industrial complex" speech, one can take note that it was his going-away speech -- not a campaign point.
Too late folks. Obama couldn't possibly get elected if he campaigned on substance since the MIC heavily influences the Corporate Media. For instance, dialing back the wartime economy we've been under for almost a century or thereabouts. Beating our swords to plowshares and doing useful things (health care, medical research, education, science, culture, the arts, etc.). Where there should be more constructive and rewarding jobs.
The primary way the unprincipled Democrats insulate themselves from Republican attacks is by becoming more like them. They protect themselves from being called soft on terrorism by becoming war hawks. This is best illustrated by the erstwhile 2000 Democratic candidate for vice president Joe Liberman who is out campaigning for the Republican presidential candidate John McCain.
Why do they try to out right the Republicans when the majority of the people want an end to the war? It is because they are reassuring the establishment that they have nothing to fear from them. If they were in any way a threat to the status quo they would have met the same fate as Ralph Nader, Dennis Kucinich, Gravel, Ewards and even Ron Paul.
JConrad;
Go to www.SFGate.com and on top of the page click on to Advanced Search.Where it says, Search, type in the words, Rule by fear or rule by law? When the 02/04/08 page comes up, scroll down that headline and read the story by Lewis Seller and Dan Hamburg about the 'detention centers' KBR is building in the U.S.
Hey J. those sites are very good!
The Best to You
Sheehan said:
" The 614 billion DOES NOT include the money for Iraq/Afghanistan which is approaching one trillion "
I hope this is a typo, as most comprehensive estimates for Iraq/Afghanistan are about $2 Trillion and counting.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15499.htm
Congress did an estimate recently that was about $1.7 Trillion.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/iraq-war-cost-put-at-17-trillion/200...
In basic terms, this works out to be about $20,000 per household of four or $10,000 per individual taxpayer.
And keep in mind they want to occupy Iraq and Afghanistan for the 21st century or until all the oil and natural gas is gone.
And I have not seen any discussion of how the war related devaluation of the dollar factors in ?
Peaceman:
Great fun. Ordinary folks like us picking reality apart and exposing the Wizard of Oz !
An appropriate quote for our times:
" The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
-- Dr. Joseph Goebbels, German Minister of Propaganda, 1933-1945
Everyone now knows the WMD issue was a fabricated lie and Big Oil wants Iraq's reserves and the military complex is making obscene profits along with private contractors and that Israel's AIPAC and the neocons gave the war machine a big nudge.
But the bottom line on oil and war is about the $DOLLAR as reserve currency.
And you mentioned Iran getting away from dollars in oil trading. Makes sense to me as oil is real and dollars are not, or at least they have become an unstable currency.
The following article is not breaking news but the issue of petrodollars is now becoming more apparent. Well worth the read.
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html
The Real Reasons for the Upcoming War With Iraq: A Macroeconomic and Geostrategic Analysis of the Unspoken Truth
And a newer and slighty for succinct interpretation:
http://www.trinicenter.com/oops/iraqeuro.html
The War To Save The U.S. Dollar
by Gavin R. Putland
But the catch is that the dollar is declining as a result of the cost of our Iraq and Afghan invasions and occupations.
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/38550/
Iraq Is Killing the Dollar
By Nicholas von Hoffman, TheNation.com. Posted July 10, 2006.
" History shows that inflation and the cost of war go hand in hand -- and Iraq is no different.
Ask George Washington what he thinks about fighting a war on credit. Back in his day, Congress printed money to pay for the Revolutionary War but neglected to tax anybody to back up this funny money of theirs. The bills were called continentals and in due course they lost all their value, hence the once-popular expression, "not worth a continental. "
Looks like we have "another fine mess".
One could look at the above quote from Obama posted by tailcap 11:27am, and interpret it differently: In all fairness the president is commander in chief. He has to say these things to be credible and to assure himself of not being torn apart by McCain. And maintaining the strongest military on earth could be done with half the budget we have now.
Lots of despair and cynicism here, and it's understandable.
I have some discomfort about Obama too. He equivocates too much, for example on Cuba. I preferred Richardson or Kucinich. But let's give him a chance. He's motivating people. Elect some better Congress people and Senators, too. And then put the pressure on. Of course the current admin doesn't respond to pressure, except from Exxon. We must throw the bums out, and voting Nader or McKinney for president, while good for the conscience, won't help in this election.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/feb2008/prim-f22.shtml
During his most recent debate with Hillary, Obama reassured the military establishment that he is prepared to be as ruthless as necessary to defend US imperialism. He definitely plans to keep a gun in his hand. No talk here about the ridiculously bloated military budget.
Obama: “And my number one job as president will be to keep the American people safe. And I will do whatever is required to accomplish that, and I will not hesitate to act against those that would do America harm. Now, that involves maintaining the strongest military on earth...â€
aybayb,
You said it well! Talk IS cheap, and every four years we hear the same thing and once the politicians get in, they resort to the same tactics of pleasing their big-money "friends," and lead the general public around on a leash.
After a lifetime of voting for "the lessor of two evils," it dawned on me I was still stuck with ...you know what. So I switched to the Green Party, which represents my views, and we are building our base in my community.
The Republicans are all the same...crooks and liars...we know that, but too many citizens still think the Democrats will overturn the detrimental policies of the R's, and when they see the D's go along with the R's, they still make excuses for them. Like you say, we MUST vote out of CONSCIENCE rather than FEAR.
This country is in dire need of a reshaping of its political paradigm. Neither "major" party is up to the task; neither is a vehicle for genuine CHANGE.
In spite of claims to the contrary, the "change" the Democrats are chanting like a mantra means simply a change of personnel in the offices currently held by Republicans. The wiseguys in the Dem Party obviously are aware of Americans' malaise over the current state of affairs...or they wouldn't be chanting "CHANGE" so loudly and so insistently. They have divined the public mood; but they will only make cosmetic change...just enough to co-opt any "dangerous political movement.
When you come right down to it, the Dems, like the Reps, will be "dancing with the ones that brung 'em", i.e., the Big Money powers-that-be (Have you noticed where all their serious campaign contributions have been coming from?).
There is no chance of substantive change if we continue--out of fear, loyalty or despair--to support either of the "Chamber of Commerce" major parties. The Republicans will continue to be themselves, while the Democrats will continue to "triangulate" to give the impression that they are something they are not.
The sooner we organize (against all the odds the Reps and Dems have built into the system) a viable 3rd Party, the sooner we'll have the CHANGE we need--the CHANGE the Dems only crow about during election campaigns. If more of us had voted out of CONSCIENCE rather than FEAR in the last several elections, we'd be well on our way to having that 3rd Choice already.
Republicans are different from Democrats. They differ in degree not substance. Bill Clinton had no fly zones and was periodically bombing the hell out of Iraqis and starving them by the millions with sanctions. Democrats prefer a kindler, gentler machine gun approach. The Republicans are not as low key and prefer a scorched Earth approach. It's degree not substance.
The suggestion there is no difference between the Democrats and the Republicans is easily proven false by simply comparing our country of 9 years ago (when we enjoyed the respect of the world, were at peace, and experienced prosperity and a balanced budget) to what the Republicans have brought us today.
And hallelujah, Nader will likely announce this weekend that he is running. There will be someone in the race, whose principles and actions I highly respect in almost every way, whom I can vote for. For a principled progressive, Obama is like a bucket of dilute piss.
Outside the Loop, on February 22nd, 2008 7:11 pm wrote:
"I have a message for Obama and for the Democrats generally. If you are elected by us and take office next year and the war does not end, we will turn against you. If you are elected and the military budget doesn’t shrink dramatically, we will turn against you. The Republicans will still have their base. You won’t have yours. Beware."
They likely won't beware much, because much of the progressive electorate keeps falling for their crap. The Democrats will just put on another show in 2010 or 2012, somewhat different in the details, to convince the public that THIS time around it's for real.
Outside the Loop, while I see the democrats as being the dim hope for getting rid of the republicans, I have already turned against them.
cindysheehan February 22nd, 2008 2:11 pm
I'm with you 100%. I hope you win so bad! Good luck Cindy and keep up the good fight!
RichM February 22nd, 2008 1:12 pm
Thanks for cutting through the Kernal crap.
COMarc February 22nd, 2008 1:14 pm
The Dems fully support the expanding and growing military budget.
Yes-sir-ee-bob!
You see, progressives, Obama is not really about change.
He's the newest con man.
Wake up, sheeple.
Kernel February 22nd, 2008 4:54 pm
...and you are also naive if you think a third party has any chance of getting in this time."
Third Parties Cannot Win Because We Don't Vote For For Them!
If we all fall for the logic that we shouldn't vote for third parties because they can't win we self-fulfill our own prophecy. It's a circular vicious cycle. They can't win because we don't vote for them. We don't vote for them because we don't think they can win. They won't win at first silly. It's a process. It will take time.
We need to break away from our fears because the Democrats are just Republicans in drag. Bush was able to basically railroad congress on everything he wanted to accomplish because he could always count on enough Democratic votes to implement his agenda.
The Democrats are a disgrace. They can't even impeach Bush after he has basically admitted he broke the law when he spied on US citizens and tortured prisoners. Can you imagine what the Republicans would have done to Bill Clinton if he'd had done that instead of hosing a cute young intern? They would have crucified him on the spot. The Democrats are beyond being disgraced. They are an utterly pathetic, weak, cowardly and repugnant party that works hand in glove with the Republicans. They are beyond contempt. They are like stress sacks. Useless.
Little by little we need to build a new party. A party that represents the interests of people not corporate power. The Democrats can't do this because they represent the same interests Republicans do. The power brokers are no fools, they fund both parties and in turn both parties are beholden to their masters.
Don't be scared by those crying that that now is not the time. That's what they will always say. The sky will forever be falling. They said that last time and they'll say it next time. Never will be the time to break with the Dims for them. Hopeless bunch. They are like frogs that slowly get cooked because they are too stupid to jump out of the pot as the heat gets slowly turned up. They stay in the pot until they get cooked. Dump the Dims! Vote 3rd party! When enough of us do we can stand, we can fight and we can force change! NEVER SURRENDER!
JConrad, 4;23pm post;
More good points. Also, China knows the United States can't pay back the borrowed money. Japan, like Chalmers Johnson says is still somewhat of a colony of ours and from most accounts, are worried about their U.S. loans as well. The Saudis get some of their money back by higher prices at the gas pump. Very important and pertinent to this discussion is when you state: "A lot of people who oppose us now have degrees in economics, having come a long way from being 'sheep herders'."
The significance of your statement links the massive military expenditures of our nation, the global bully stealing the natural resources of weaker countries and the "sheep herders" and "peasant farmers" who are doomed if they try to stop us.
Most of the world knows by now the game plan of U.S. hegemony and the rationale for legalized murder and mayhem by the most corrupt regime the United States has ever produced. As you said earlier, "alliances" are forming and 'Uncle Sam' is worried.
About three years ago, when Michael C. Ruppert wrote about the Iranian government's plans to open a special bourse* intended to sell oil and petrochemicals with currencies other than the dollar, I told my friends to anticipate the demonization of Iran. Well now, they opened the bourse last week and twenty brokers were there ready to buy in 'non-U.S. dollar' currency.
*For those of you who don't know the word "bourse", here's the definition. " bourse: the stock exchange of a city of continental Europe, especially Paris."
Kudos William D. Hartung for this excellent and timely article. Thank you!
The Democrats Don't Talk About The Bloated Defense Budget Because They Are For It!
Democrats voted to fund the war.
The Democrats are not discussing the bloated defense budget because they are in full agreement with the imperialist aims of the invasion/war/occupation. Raping Iraq of its oil wealth and all the lavish defense spending is enriching a small number of elites that are well connected to the government if not actually are the government. There was abundant evidence provided by the weapons inspectors that Iraq had no weapons but still they voted for the war.
Democrats want to increase military spending.
The Democrat Sen. Obama has aims of increasing military spending by increasing the number of troops by as much as 100,000. As William Hartung pointed out in spite of the fact we are fighting a bunch rag tag groups who have no navy, air force, hi-tech weapons or even tanks. Hillary hasn't mentioned cutting defense spending either.
Democrats who have businesses in their districts profit from the jobs.
The practice buying big ticket items we don't need like the F22 cold war jet is a fighter not a bomber and is a perfect example of what is referred to as "pork". We need to confront this wasteful spending not reduce social spending as conservatives like to suggest. We need to spend money on infrastructure and people not new jet fighters. We have enough super expensive jet fighters already
Neither of the three pro-war. pro-big business, pro-establishment candidates are talking about cutting the ballooning defense budget because they don't want to be accused of being soft on terrorism in spite of the fact most Americans want to end the war as soon as possible. The attacks on being soft would be easy to refute if they really wanted to oppose pork-barrel spending by stating the obvious ; the outrageous waste on weapons we don't need actually weakens us by starving all the important projects that help people and the environment. We could be world leaders in building green, energy efficient cars and in the development of renewable energy sources instead of being the leading producer and exporter of weapons of mass destruction.
Democrats don't mention the obscene defense spending because they are in full accord with it. The Democrats are not the solution. The Democrats are co-conspirators with Republicans and both need to go. It's high time to rally around a third party and once and for all dump the Dims.
The title of this article says it all.
HILLARY: Millary budget smudge it. I'm gonna hit the ground running.
BUSH: Ah'm gonna sprint ta da finish line.
HILLARY: I'm gonna sprint to the starting line. And hit the ground runnin'. I have always said so, always always always!
WELLESLEY STUDENT WHO HEARD HILLARY'S GRADUATION SPEECH: No, you used better words back then. Could it be that people get stupider, not smarter in time?
hamster:
thanks for mentioning me in the same breath as cindy. an honor to be sure.
I have a message for Obama and for the Democrats generally. If you are elected by us and take office next year and the war does not end, we will turn against you. If you are elected and the military budget doesn't shrink dramatically, we will turn against you. The Republicans will still have their base. You won't have yours. Beware.
"THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING" - H. Zinn & N. Chomsky
This is entertaining!
http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2003/04/22fellowship.html
If, in a neighborhood of 50 families each had a gun, but one of them kept accumulating guns and now had 50, what would you think? The US spends as much as the rest of the world combined on its military. What is one supposed to think?
According to the author, Russia has not fully secured its nuclear weapons. Here in the US, atom bombs were discovered en route to somewhere and one apparently has disappeared. No one is sure how this happened. Has this happened in Russia? Who can't secure its weapons again?
locust asks: "Who will stand up to the Beast of militarism?" The answer: Ron Paul did. He said we had to slash the military budget in order to pay for our entitlement obligations.
Whoever gets in will spend too much on war by an absurd margin.
"..the Bush administration has actually proposed cutting Nunn-Lugar funding in this year’s budget, to $414 million dollars, or less than two days worth of spending on the war in Iraq."
Maintaining a nuclear threat and nuclear arms race would make perfect sense to empire-bulding sociopaths when their ultimate goal is to make money and be in control of everyone and everything.
There's a lot of money being made by these people who have no connection with the understanding of what most of us would call morality or decency. They also clearly lack a sense of ethics and "empathy" for humanity.
In short, these people have NO conscience.
If someone wants to even look at the Pentagon budget, the right wing calls them "soft on defense". It is about time to quit responding to the name calling and get real value for our dollars.
RichM and Comark___ You two characters are really something. All you do is run down everything and everybody and apparently have zero ideas of your own about what we should do.
You have to be worse than naive(as you think I am) to keep harping on the fact that there is no difference between the Dems and Repugs. Evidently you are so young you were not aware of the progress from the failed Bush One years through the eight Dem years when the country was in reasonably good shape again until Bush Two took over. Or maybe you are so old you are incapable of any constructive thoights.
Many of us are not particularly pleased with the way our two-party system is working, but it is all we have at the present time, and you are also naive if you think a third party has any chance of getting in this time. I am still waiting for any good ideas from you that would be of any value.
Peaceman and others:
I posted the following earlier today on another thread further down the webpage but it also applies here.
The voodoo war crimes Mickey Mouse economics are not sustainable unless other nations are willing to continue to purchase our debt.
Washington is playing a sick game of public debt for private profit.
Thus: This morning a friend expressed the idea that the current $2 Trillion Iraq war crimes debt is not a big deal, so my thoughts for the day were:
If the total national debt is in the neighborhood of $8 Trillion and the war crimes debt is $2 Trillion and counting, I would not call that a "tiny" factor. And the $3 Billion per week (or more) is borrowed money flying out the window making things worse every day. And the economic impacts of higher fuel prices as well as the decline of the dollar would add a lot to the so-called $2 Trillion current estimate. The ripple effect through the economy is just beginning to be felt and will accelerate the semi-free fall.
As you many know the dollar started to fall against the EURO just on the rumor that we were going to invade Iraq before any of the tricky financial market stuff began to happen. I assume that was due to the fact that international investors knew we had no money to finance the war crimes.
And as you said one potential solution for the tricky financial market problems (basically legal, or in some cases illegal profit taking theft that has now come home to roost) is a massive government bailout. But how can that be done if we are financing the occupation on debt....perhaps manufacture $Trillions in inflationary currency. Hard to say how this will end. And as the economy declines there will be less tax revenue coming to a broken system.
And the "stimulus" package is a pathetic answer to the reality that with so much money at the top and inflation to boot, the average American is having trouble participating in the consumer economy which is 70% of the American economy.
I think a key to understanding a lot of this is a profound ethical and cultural decline.
The idea of short term profits for personal wealth with no ethical code behind the commerce has created huge problems. Basically we are talking about criminal behavior at all levels of government and business. I am not using the world criminal lightly. Which brings me back to the question of how did we develop this nation psychosis where war crimes are accepted as legitimate foreign policy ?
And by the way the movie Redacted is on DVD about the Samarra rape and murder (burned her body as well) of a 15 year old Iraqi girl and murder of the girl's family by some bored American soldiers. Hoo Rah...Support The Troops !
And on financial stuff, I recall an article in Time back in the eighties about MBA students at Stanford reacting to a lecture on business ethics and their overwhelming response was that if you acted ethically that you were at a disadvantage and would "lose" the money race.
This IS a criminal mindset. Criminals are of the viewpoint that a scam is more effective than honest behavior with the key to wealth being exploiting others. The only rule is not getting caught. But in the long run, mass stealing begins to backfire, although a lot of white collar criminals have their loot stashed and will never see a jail cell.
I think the Iraqi "insurgency" as well as the Afghan resistance, and others around the world abused by the empire, are well aware of the economic realities and are in it for the long run watching the empire die a slow death of self-inflicted wounds. Did not the Algerians bleed the French for decades ? A lot of the people who oppose us now have degrees in economics having come a long way from being "sheep herders".
Mr David,
Thank-you, for giving the Democrat's game away. I will quote you far and wide so every Republican knows the dishonest, stealth, communist, lover-of the terrorist in disguise campaign your Obama and Hillary are waging.
I will make very sure that when every good patriotic republican or undecided person hears Obama or Hillary say thay support a mighty, strong 1.1 trillion American war budget, with bases in 120 nations around the world, and 8000 nuclear bombs, and space weapons and predator drones with hellfire missiles controlled from Ratheon's offices in San Jose, and all that other cool high tech stuff, and when they express unwavering support and $billions more for the Jew's brave fight against the Islamofascists... Well, when thay say such things, we will plaster the TV networks with remarks like yours, showing that that they are actually lying through their teeth! Just like Kerry did about his lyin swift-boat heroics!
C'mon boys, we got some Obama swift-boatin to do! Yeee-hah!!
Cindy,
Thanks for being one of the few congressional candidates to stand up to the war machine.
The US has about about 1.6 trillion worth of infrastructure repairs to do, plus hundreds of billions worth of badly needed projects to avert climate catastrophe - high speed rail, public transportation and others projects to wean us from automobile and aircraft use. Such expenditures would create "right-livlihoods", for millions.
The choise is stark, kill the military-industrial war machine or be killed.
Daniel David February 22nd, 2008 1:58 pm
No one can win elections while demanding gun control, and no one can win if demanding military cuts. You win first, then pass a Dem military budget signed by a Dem president. You DO NOT debate MIC cuts in public during two wars until your whole side just loses the elections again, unless you’re woefully stupid.
Elections are not the time to debate issues, eh?
Thing is, I don't believe you're going to have a dem congress or pres that would be willing to cut the military budget. If anything you're going to be forced to cut it when the full fallout of the sub-prime fiasco hits, but it won't be voluntary on the part of the gov't. Not a dem one nor a repub one. The only other way for you to redirect coins from the military is that a whole new way of waging war is devised that makes what you have built totally obsolete. Money spent on city walls and fancy chariots will not improve your economy.
Defence budgets have nothing to do with defence. They have to do with a system that enriches a small group of wealthy groups via redirecting tax dollars to them in the name of defence. It is therefore political suicide to even hint at defence cuts because the MIC decides which candidates the parties will field. The same goes for universal health care. Even if a real liberal, like Dennis Kucinich were elected, I don't think it would be possible to reverse this trend. It's the nature of the beast.
Nice post Peaceman !
How about calling it the offensive department of defense.
I have a fuzzy theory that the oligarchy sees the military as a security blanket for protecting their wealth ?
And as we know, many of the decision makers actually have investments in the military Big Oil complex.
Unfortunately we are all paying the price.
JConrad,
Good comments. I remember in Oct. or Nov., 2002, we were in San Jose, Ca. listening to www.kpfa.org on the car radio and Michael C. Ruppert was talking about our government massing a hugh military force in the Middle East to invade Iraq. I pulled over and listened to him for the rest of the show. He knew! Mike was loaded with facts and figures, not theories.
Chalmers Johnson has been telling us also, but the public has been mesmerized again with false hope in the upcoming election. As you know, I was a Kucinich supporter, but now will vote my Green Party's candidate in November. If enough of us want progressive officials to represent us, we should vote for the people who have taken their time to run for office to represent us. ( is that reduntant? )
RichM,
You're speaking with the same level of hyperbole that the right-wing uses to describe how Bill Clinton "decimated" this nation's military. You're both wrong... and both right.
According to this source:
http://www.heartheissues.com/clinton-military.html
...spending started to decline under Bush01. It continued downward in Clinton's 1st term, then jumped up in his second (Yugoslavia).
The point is, the President is only one player in The Game. You have to convince the Senator from Boeing, Senator from General Dynamics and the Senator from KBR to go along with your military budget.
Which means you have to convince the voters in their states that their high-paying aerospace jobs are a burden on the nation and they should go flip hamburgers for a living.
The American economy is ADDICTED to military spending. Kicking the habit is going to take time. We can't do it without the Dems and they can't do it without us.
But the Republicans won't even try.
If you can find a copy of Todd's "After The Empire" it is an informative read. He predicted the collapse of the Soviet economy a decade before it happened.
One point he makes is that our military is much too expensive and larger than necessay for national defense, but not nearly big enough to sustain a global empire.
And of course we are now seen as a threat by most of the world rather than a productive player. " After years of being perceived as a problem solver, the United States itself has now become a problem for the rest of the world." And if this continues there will be new alliances of nations that want nothing or little to do with Amerika or our currency.
He also adds that we are becoming less democratic and less well educated while most of the world is making progress in these areas.
Link all of that that with Chalmers Johnson on the over-extenstion of a militaristic pseudo-empire and you have a recipe for the decline of our economy and civlization.
Meanwhile, internal economic rot linked to criminal behavior in the world of high finance is weakening the system from within.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19401.htm
My personal motivation for being engaged with all of this is somewhat more idealistic than the world of economics. But the current system is a train wreck that even a hardcore capitalist should want to reform. And of course the poverty cause my ammoral greed becomes a very real source of suffering and an arguement that everyone on mainstreet will listen to.
Polls indicate that the majority of Americans are concerned about the economy and see getting out of Iraq as a way to improve the economy. And these conclusions have not been introduced by politicians or the corporate media...people are starting to figure it out.
Peace can be profitable in the long run.
Unfortunately the Demos are nearly hopeless and McCain is insane!
I agree with Rich M. People should pressure the Obama campaign to talk about this (should he be nominated) during the campaign against McCain, using well-thought-out arguments like tj's. Most Americans are 100% behind this. Let's get on with it.
Just look at the ludicrously dishonest argument laid out by Dem-apologist Daniel David (1:58) who writes "You win first, then pass a Dem military budget signed by a Dem president. You DO NOT debate MIC cuts in public during two wars until your whole side just loses the elections again..."
Dan wants you to believe that having a "Dem" budget signed by a "Dem" president would constitute some sort of progress. He implies that a "Dem" candidate would slyly pretend during the campaign that he wasn't going to cut the military budget -- then suddenly turn around (once safely in office) and do just that!!
There are ZERO instances of anything like this ever happening in US history -- but Dan wants you to believe it could happen, anyhow. But it cannot happen. It never has happened, & all players are fully aware that doublecrossing financial backers in this way would get a new president either killed or destroyed politically.
In other words, what Dem apologist Dan is really telling you, is that the Democrats won't do anything about the military budget (and hence about US militarism generally) -- but that they still shouldn't be expected to talk about this problem during the campaign.
Thank you tj and cindy.
It seems that every four years we hear candidates from both Republican and Democratic Parties speak about "making the military strong, modernizing the military" and talk of such a nature.When a country of 300,000,000 people outspends the rest of the world's 6.25,000,000,000 people combined, one wonders.
Maybe we should rename the Department of Defense, the Department of Offensive Actions, or Department of Imperial Goals and Ambitions, are something similar. After World War Two, it was obvious that our military budget went for far more then defense of the United States. Our propaganda, aimed primarily at the Soviet Union, worked, and the public believed what they were fed by politicians and the media. The new theme replacing "the communist menace' is the "war on terror." and most people still fall for the con game.
This administration has started a new arms race but we may not have the edge this time. The only thing permanant is change, and other nations are rising as we are falling. Remember the words, "it's the economy, stupid?" Since then, the situation has changed for the worse, but the two main contenders for the White House, whether Obama and McCain or Clinton and McCain will both 'reassure us' about their commitment to a 'strong military', whatever that means.
Zoya,
You bring up a good point when you say,
"Are Americans prepared for the massive job losses that will happen if the military-industrial complex is dismantled?"
In 1980-81, I attended a trade-union lecture in Los Angeles about industries turning their manufacturung from military products to consumer products. The guest speakers were from Scotland, and their union led the fight to 're-tool' the machinery in the factories where they worked and produce something consumers wanted. The process was well thought out and they were successful and if I remember, nobody lost their job, either. We can do the same thing here if the desire was strong enough.
Post WW2 Germany and Japan did well going from their m-i-c to consumer oriented products. Another reason to NOT PARTICIPATE in wars for the sake of the 'ruling-elite' of any political or idealogical 'ism' is the fact that after the death and destruction, misery and suffering is over, the so-called 'enemies' become friends. German business is doing quite well in Russia, in spite of Bush's friend Angela Merkel's unfavorable regard for President Putin. If push comes to shove, I hope Germany backs Russia instead of the United States.
It is unforgivable that every American doesn't have free health care. Drastically reduce the military budget and it can be provided. I doubt if the 'two-party' (one-party) will cut the military budget for civillian programs. Perhaps we may have to learn the hard way.
The 614 billion DOES NOT include the money for Iraq/Afghanistan which is approaching one trillion, and BushCo has asked for more.
I am running for office and I demand that we bring our troops back from Iraq and Afghanistan, re-tool our military for defensive purposes only AND cut the Pentagon budget by 25 percent to begin with.
Then we start rebuilding our infrastructure here in America. Put people back to work in good union jobs; extend food stamp benefits; extend unemployment benefits and increase federal grants for education/job training. Clean our environment and develop clean energy sources. These are true economic stimulus plans and peace plans. Have a true peace dividend that reduces tensions with the world while still keeping the US protected.
Our military has not been used to defend our country for decades and a standing Army was something that the founders feared. When there is a true threat to our nation, we will stand to defend our communities.
I will and am standing up to the Military Industrial Complex.
Love & Peace
Cindy Sheehan
www.cindyforcongress.org
"Are Americans prepared for the massive job losses that will happen if the military-industrial complex is dismantled? Because that’s the only method for killing the beast. I think you should be asking your presidential candidates about this." --Zoya
This is a very perinent question and somewhat similar to the so-called "jobs v. the environment" controversy.
The default position is usually: we can't change anything because people will lose jobs. As a union activist who has worked with folks who have lost jobs because of automation, a mis-guided trade policy, general deindustrialization, and a lack of national industrial policy, I fully understand the very real fears that lay behind Zoya's question and observations.
That said, when we are discussing both military spending and green spending, we need to understand two basic economic facts:
1) Dollars spent on the military are largely counter-productive dollars. They create relatively few capital intensive jobs that produce useless high-tech products that often don't work, and other products and services that destroy economies and material resources that must be repaired/replaced at exceesive costs. They also are acompanied by massive waste and fraud.
Not to mention the human waste, horrors and costs of caring for survivors of the violence -- on all sides. (I put the human costs last because, as a society, we don't really give a damn about them).
2) The opposite is true of green and infrastructure spending. Those dollars create labor-intensive productive jobs that actually increase personal and social wealth in numerous ways.
So in dismantling (or at least reducing) the military-industrial economy on which US society is based, we need to develop sensible transitions for displaced workers including sufficient unemployment and re-training funds so that the unemployed workers can acquire new skills or transfer existing skills to productive industries that increase material and social wealth.
Conversion to a saner economy is both doable and necessary to our survival as a nation and human beings. It will require a strong industrial policy and political will. We have the material resources. Let's get on with it.
No one can win elections while demanding gun control, and no one can win if demanding military cuts. You win first, then pass a Dem military budget signed by a Dem president. You DO NOT debate MIC cuts in public during two wars until your whole side just loses the elections again, unless you're woefully stupid.
RichM-In general you are right to characterize the dems as just as militant as the repugs, but the dems are more receptive to rational thought and the will of the people. Sadly, there is no realistic alternative, but next year, if progressives make enough noise, change will begin. Push come to shove, it is possible.
Poet's plan to put the hogs who slop at the Pentagon trough on a diet:
From now on the rhetoric of social security reform and single-payer, government run healthcare applies to the Pentagon.
You want a new weapon system?--Invest your reduced defense allotment in the stock market or buy T-bills or hog bellies or some other commodity and whatever you earn that's your budget for expanding your collection of toys.
You want a new war? Invest your newly trimmed budget revenues in the capital markets and should you have enough money saved then go for it--otherwise you are on your own as the wonders of the invisible hand and free markets work their magic.
From now on the Defense Department is on a "pay as you go" basis and declining tax revenues will result in a corresponding cut in budgetary appropriations.
PS ... with the housing and commerical real-estate markets collapsing these days, spending the money to finance construction jobs is much more of what our economy needs right now than military spending.
The argument that cutting the military budget would lead to 'job-losses' is a typical red hearing on this issue.
The only way that would be true would be if we simply cut the budget without moving any of the spending elsewhere. But, what we really need to do is to re-direct this money to stuff that improves America.
For instance, after the bridge collapse in MN last year, there were lots of stories about our deteriorating infrastructure. If we re-directed say $100 billion from the military to a massive plan to rebuild and repair the basic infrastructure of our country, that would not lead to job losses. Any job losses from cutting back on military spending would be offset or surpassed by the construction jobs that would be created from such spending.
And note this, spending on the military is wasted money. A certain amount is needed to DEFEND the country. Traditionally, any country or city-state always has to spend a certain amount to keep others from marching into your country and stealing what you have built. But, beyond that, any money spend on the military is wasted.
If you build a tank, you park it on a base, or you drive it around. But, it does absolutely nothing to help improve your country. It just sits there.
If you take the same money to build a bridge, then it improves commerce and people's ability to get around. If you take the same money and build or fund a school, you have better educated citizens. If you take the same money and build or fund health care, you have healthier and more productive citizens.
For most of these sorts of investments, you get multiplier effects where the money you spend not only creates jobs, but it also improves your country and helps make it a more prosperous and productive place. The military is the exception to that. If you build a million dollar missile, it just sits there and does nothing for your country until its used to create death, destruction and misery.
They don't need to 'debate' it because the position of the Dems is clear and there's no difference between Obama, Hillary or any of the other decision makers in the Dem party.
The Dems fully support the expanding and growing military budget.
Look at the votes. The Dems all line up and vote almost unanimously in favor or every bloated Pentagon budget request. This last year with Dem majorities in both houses made little to zero effort to try to trim or contain this at all.
Both Obama and Hillary have been running around for months promising to spend MORE money. Obama has certainly been clear on his goal to EXPAND the size of the Army. This means an even larger military budget. The Obama for Pres website makes the following promises to spend much more money on the military. All of these are more $$.
# Expand the Military: We have learned from Iraq that our military needs more men and women in uniform to reduce the strain on our active force. Obama will increase the size of ground forces, adding 65,000 soldiers to the Army and 27,000 Marines.
# New Capabilities: Obama will give our troops new equipment, armor, training, and skills like language training. He will also strengthen our civilian capacity, so that our civilian agencies have the critical skills and equipment they need to integrate their efforts with our military.
# Strengthen Guard and Reserve: Obama will restore the readiness of the National Guard and Reserves. He will permit them adequate time to train and rest between deployments, and provide the National Guard with the equipment they need for foreign and domestic emergencies. He will also give the Guard a seat at the table by making the Chief of the National Guard a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Kernel (12:50 pm ) has written a typical "defend-the-Democrats-at-all-costs" post, in which virtually every statement is wrong. He claims, "If we cannot impeach the Bushco and remove them from office, we may as well not worry about the defense expenditures until next year....The important thing is to make sure we get either one of our Democratic candidates elected, as they at least are promising to end the war, which would be a step in the right direction."
This is pure bunk. The Democrats are every bit as committed to defending the military budget as the Republicans, & there is historically no difference whatever between the 2 parties in this regard. The Democrats are not really "promising to end the war." They are simply mouthing certain suggestive phrases, which are calculated to sound "anti-war-ish" to naive liberals like Kernel, but which are in no way "promises to end the war."
Anyone who lived through the Vietnam era would recognize these dishonest tricks of the Democrats. Everything they say has loopholes & word-games in it. For instance, when they say they will "immediately begin withdrawing troops," that doesn't specify how many troops. There's also a difference between "combat troops" and "counter-terrorism troops" and "troops assigned to training Iraqi soldiers." So even a promise to withdraw "all combat troops" (a promise they haven't even made) would still leave many tens of thousands of US troops in Iraq, and the war would continue.
Anyone who believes that electing Democrats will make the slightest difference in US militarism or military spending simply doesn't know what he's talking about. One of the main characteristics of the Democrats, over time, is their consistent grandstanding as a fake "antiwar" party, notorious for making campaign appeals to antiwar voters, while doublecrossing them at every turn.
Are Americans prepared for the massive job losses that will happen if the military-industrial complex is dismantled? Because that's the only method for killing the beast. I think you should be asking your presidential candidates about this.
Like all issues most urgently needing attention, this subject is "off the table." It will never receive any kind of open or public examination, for the simple reason that the more the public learns about it, the more clearly they'll see that they've basically been robbed for decades to feed the MIC. They would see that the 2 parties have colluded with defense contractors & the Pentagon, to systematically fleece "We, the people." The whole US political system would be exposed and discredited as a result of this discussion -- so it's a safe bet that no such discussion will be permitted.
Defense should be about actual defense, not about forcing other countries to bend to "our" will. We need an attitude of understanding and reconciliation with all peoples, not threats and punishments. When we start diverting all that military money to aid and trade, our image in the world will soar and our need for military control will plummet. I was disappointed by the talk about Cuba in the debate last night because that has always been a prime example of the US' blindness. Why couldn't either candidate just flat out say they would end the trade embargo? It hasn't done us or them a shred of good for 49 years. If they still talk about "conditions" and "preparation" to normalize relations with Cuba, they will probably want "conditions" and "preparation" to end the obscenity in Iraq, too. Good grief.
If we cannot impeach the Bushco and remove them from office, we may as well not worry about the defense expenditures until next year.
The important thing is to make sure we get either one of our Democratic candidates elected, as they at least are promising to end the war, which would be a step in the right direction.
If McCain gets in, things will continue to get worse as he is a warmonger and defense would be his first priority, no matter what the cost.
We already have most of the armaments and weapons on the earth, but some extremists think more are always needed, even if our country cannot pay their obligations and effectively is bankrupt.
This may be the most important election our country has ever had, and if Hillary and Barack can get along, the rest of us should be able to accept either one as nominee and then throw full support to them. Our kids and grandkids are dependent on our stopping the present madness.
Hear Hear! And just who has the vision, intelligence, experience, and power to begin this very pertinent and primary discussion?
What does "Defense" in the modern world mean? Who leads? We have a government with so many shadows - There is the speculation that our Defense policies are simply manifesting their fears! (and of course prospering their many corporate suppliers)
This conversation is long overdue - it should be the major issue in our elections. Just how much "safety" do armaments supply? And is a Bankrupt economy safe? For who?
let's get real: every one of the major candidates is a bucket of pus. but Obama seems the least acceptable to the ruling class and also seems the best bet for ending the Iraq invasion.
The State Department gets less money than the Pentagon spends on health care.
Who will stand up to the Beast of militarism?