i couldn't agree more with thomas more. when a society i taking equal participation in a community the immigrant or non-immigrant status is of no use.

we cam to US 120 years ago from holland. our parents were never interested in knowing whether someone is immigrant ofr not, couloured or not.

the participation in the society from us has been significant (at least i believe so, and the locals of my area have told me about it.)

JWP
----------------
New York Immigration Lawyer Marina Shepelsky, located in Brooklyn, assists clients from the New York metro area and across the United States in all immigration and naturalization matters http://www.e-us-visa.com
http://www.e-us-visa.com

7 line shows how absurd the distinction between a legal and an illegal immigrant can be: When everyone's an avid participant in society, immigration status is irrelevant.

Please! There is nothing absurd about the soverignty of a country or the value of its citizenship.

You will never remove the truth of law. It is the base of our society. And if you think it isn't important, then I would guess you've not traveled much, never faced an armed enemy, never heard of Darfur, never seen what used to be Burma. Never faced a Muslim court.

"the dehumani-zation of undocumented immigrants, the resentment of non-English speakers, the subtle racism directed at browner skins and that unspoken sense that America was a better place when it was whiter."

What horsefeathers. Illegal aliens are criminals by definition when entering our country illegally, its not de-humanizing to expect them to return to theirt own country. English is our unifying factor. Its a must for a multi-racial society. Where is this subtle racism when white men vote for Obama in droves.

Let's put the real horse before the carte du jour

We are all the actors of this world play. There is no "them" and no puppeteers, other than are own imperfect and misguided ruminations.

¿ Perhaps being the generator and creator of the universe is "too much" responsibility for most to bear ?

If so, then consider that the "taking of responsibility" for having created this current situation, is merely a figurative (non-literal) method of us individually psychologically creating an allowance for us to take purposeful action(s).

Only when we become in relation to the results around us, do we empower the responsibility to actually manifest and create something else.
Consider that it is possible that each of our continual denial of causation -- is actually the cause of this world. SO if that were to be true, as I know it is, then by interrupting that flawed conversation of blaming the victim (them getting us), we can actually create the desired opposite result.

It is the "law of attraction" that permeates life, and it is considerate of intensional wanting that consistently honors life and being.

Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King

chessgames56:"They care little about the politics and problems of this country, unless it directly affects them and their mission to provide for their families abroad"...

"Rather than adapt to the present culture, many have become part of a different movement with an expressed agenda of making America bend to their collective will... As with any agenda, this amounts to a kind of aggression, and I think that's what a lot of people are reacting to"...

"The immigrants of old... even helped give birth to labor unions that defied the robber barons of that period"...

"Presently, the New Robber Barons are using immigration to divide us and push down the wages of all working Americans".

jumperpin:"our primary outrage should be the displacement of native African-Americans, from semi-skilled jobs, by their undocumented counterparts"..."The thin veil of "racial tension" can't conceal the downward spiral of our native working class".

May be they care and believe our politics:"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free. The wretched refuse of your teaming shore. Send these the homeless tempest-tost to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door". May be they know that the real politics behind such rethoric DO NOT ADMIT (legally) tired, poor, huddled, wretched refuse of our polices of economic plundering abroad. Just the class
of 'refuse' that made/make our country strong and prosperous. May be "providing for their families abroad" is the only way to do minimal remedial action
for these polices of plundering. If truth they are crying us to take care of one of the most pressing problems of this country: denial of the consecuences of the indiscriminate crimes of the "New Robber Barons" not only against 'working americans','native african-americans', 'our native working class' but Workers all over the World. They are asking us to confront beyond propaganda our apparently innocuous foreign trade politics.

Yes, the NRB "are using immigration to divide us", a fact "that the thin veil of 'racial tension' can't conceal" but 'us' adquires in this case universal meaning.

And speaking of "making America bend to" a whimsical as opposed to a "collective will" and an "agenda that amounts" to a very real and dangereous "kind of agression":

Many lawfull emigrants knowing the law that their offence was civil no criminal have contributed during many years to american bussiness, raising money for social security, medicare, medicaid and education for all americans, only to be persecuted for deportation under ex post facto laws (whims) that blame them for not knowing that their perfectly legal tax-deductible staying/work would, in future, be criminal. Similary many that did violate overtly the law and human rights instigated by our plundering foreign interests were retroactively granted immunity and conceded inmediate legal status.

See with reference to this point the following comentaries:

skippyagogo41 January 25th, 2008 1:26 pm:"I thought that retroactively granting immunity for committing a crime is the same sort of thing as drafting a law to punish an action after the act had been committed.
Whatever happened to the traditional respect for the rule of law? And don't conservatives know that without that protection a society descends into either dictatorship or absolute monarchy?"

jlocke123 January 25th, 2008 2:38 pm:" Yes, [The above statement] it is [true], Since retroactive laws are unconstitutional in the US (I think it's section 1 of that quaint document) you'd think Democratic lawmakers would know that.
As for drafting a law to punish an action after the act has been committed, the Democrats have beaten you to it (retroactive laws may be habit forming)".

May be the emigrants know that "rather than adapt to the present [irrational] culture" -manifested in these weird 'retroactive laws'- they must choose to naturally refuse to "making America bend to" them and react against this heavyly propagandized "kind of agression" defending the constitution of their adopted country suffering these iniquity.

And please do not associate "the downward spiral" of everything in this country with the wretched "them", put the blame squarely on the real puppeteers.

Immigration is responsible for change in America, no doubt. The people make contributions, but the process is not entirely positive. If all you care about is a good chinese restaurant then you are probably pretty detached from some of the other issues. This is a limited discussion and I see that any different viewpoint is considered racist, or bigoted so I have nothing more to say.

Perhaps, and don't think I don't feel for their plight. However, they presumably knew the risk when crossing the border packed in a crate on a big rig, or desperately trying to cross the desert before dying of thirst, while evading the border patrol.
They must have had some inkling of the possibility of being deported if caught.

You know, there is no free ride for ANYONE in life, and if millions of pregnant woman cross the border in order to gain a foothold in a country they entered illegally, SOMEONE has to pay that cost. Why not make the industries and businesses that invite them pony up, since they are ones that receive a direct benefit from the labor? Then everything will be out in the open. That way, those who provide the motive for this influx will the pay the bills associated with it.

The answer to that is easy: they will not, in most cases, employ these people under such conditions because it will be cheaper to hire those already here. Additionally, if these businesses are caught, they should be fined and made to take responsibility for the workers they have. In my view, this would be much more effective than busting the poor worker and breaking up their family.

Unless you address the problem at its source, though, it will no be resolved and only continue to worsen, and in the meantime we all will lose--except possibly those who profit from the cheap labor. Think about it.

Re: chessgames56
"With the huge Latino influx the dynamic is a bit different due to the sheer numbers. Rather than adapt to the present culture, many have become part of a different movement with an expressed agenda of making America bend to their collective will."

With ICE raids tearing their families apart, with big-mouth idiots fanning the flames of racial and cultural hatred across the air waves, with the systematic criminalization of undocumented immigrants everywhere -- which is still a civil matter, people! -- so that we can deny them basic human rights, with Deliverance type vigilantes just itching to 'hunt' these unfortuntate souls, why is it difficult to understand that they have banded together to form a movement that offers them some modicum of protection and acceptance in this openly hostile land?

Wouldn't we do the same in similar cicumstances?

Part "brown" myself. But am well beyond tired of seeing our broken immigration system framed as a race issue.

But if we insist on doing so, our primary outrage should be the displacement of native African-Americans, from semi-skilled jobs, by their undocumented counterparts. Hwedoneedno steenkin study to see what's happening in housekeeping, construction, etc. jobs.

The core maladies here are the oxymoron of "guest" workers and the greedy employment of indentured labor.

rtdury has it right. The thin veil of "racial tension" can't conceal the downward spiral of our native working class.

NRA freedom,

Pleasse do some travelling.

You will see those "droves" in Toronto, Vancouver, London, Sydney, Frankfurt, Paris and lots of other places...

"and foreigners still want to come here by the droves." The "droves" know EXACTLY what they are getting into. That is why they come here, and not Europe, Cuba, or Venezuela.

No, they do not, in most cases, know what they are getting into, but essentially believe it will lead to a better life. Many have illusions about life in America. For example, those who come as wives from the Philippines (and other places) believe that everyone in the US is well to do, and that life is relatively easy. That is until they see how far their wages really go, and the complexity of taking care of tax and insurance demands that are practically non-existent over there.

Also, they are conditioned to believe that they must slave to provide for their families abroad, and are often torn between the sacrifice they have to make with respect to their immediate families. If my wife's friends are any indicator, they care little about the politics and problems of this country, unless it directly affects them and their mission to provide for their families abroad. Now, of course, there are exceptions to this 'rule.'

With the huge Latino influx the dynamic is a bit different due to the sheer numbers. Rather than adapt to the present culture, many have become part of a different movement with an expressed agenda of making America bend to their collective will. The results of this is evident if you look around (I'm not making a judgment here about this being right or wrong, just making an observation). As with any agenda, this amounts to a kind of aggression, and I think that's what a lot of people are reacting to.

It's up to us to draw our own conclusions about whether this influx is beneficial or not, and how far we wish to go in accepting this 'push' for change. The immigrants of old came here with the motive of making their new country (America) strong and prosperous; they willingly learned the language and even helped give birth to labor unions that defied the robber barons of that period. In fact, almost all of us came from an immigrant ancestry.

Presently, the New Robber Barons are using immigration to divide us and push down the wages of all working Americans (this has happened and is continuing to happen). To the oligarchy and big business, they are merely the cheap labor pawns for an out of control profit-making machine. If allowed to continue unabated, we will all soon become the chop meat of this ruthless behemoth, including them.

NRA Freedom. You seem like a reactionary bigot but I guess that is your right, to be like that.

In your first comment, you say the droves come here instead of 'Europe or Cuba or Venezuela'. . . . educate yourself, fella. The droves pour into Europe. And some droves go to Venezuela. Cuba is poor so folks aren't so much clamoring to get in there. But U.S. is not the only glistening jewel that attracts the droves. People want to get to Canada, too.

I think you are also wrong, NRA, when you say the droves know exactly what they are getting into when they come here. Human beings have moved all over the globe, always, not just recently. There is something basic about the impulse to seek other/better lives. I think lots of these so-called droves, immigrants come here because they think they know what they are letting themselves in for. . . but they are often surprised and disappointed by what they find.

I welcome immigrants. Human movement seems, to me, to be the norm and to inhibit it seems, to me, to be tantamount to tinkering with nature itself. To inhibit it is kinda like trying to eliminate corn or trees. Let's stop resisting the life that wishes to unfold on this planet, which is a gift from the gods and goddesses. Everything on this planet, in this life, is a gift and who are we to say who gets which gifts, who should live in N. America and who should live in the African veldt?

I am rambling, babbling. It is late, I should rest.

I want to say, before I tuck myself in, that I love being surrounded by immigrants. I moved to N. California about eighteen months ago. Recently, I read, in some news magazine, that a full one third of all California residents are immigrants. One third of my neighbors, minimally, were born in other countries. I live in Silicon Valley which has, I suspect, an even higher percentage. Lots and lots of tech workers from India pour into my town.

My hair was cut by a young man born in Vietnam. I'd put his age at about twenty five. The family in the apartment next to mine moved in on Dec. 1st. They are from India. The guy below me is not a native English speaker but I don't know where he's from. I swim laps most days at my public pool and at least half my swim friends are from some where else.

This is the way it is. We can't put this phenomenon back in its bottle. Let's stop resisting how the human diaspora works around the globe, let's stop resisting immigrants and get on with the work of figuring out how to create a future that serves us all. We all should have an equal share in the bounty of the earth, I say.

Tristam, it's not just a train in Queens. I live in the heart of our economic engine, Silicon Valley. All the postal employees sound like immigrants. All of them. Most of the bus drivers sound foreign. Most of the people working retail in my town sound foreign or Hispanic (many Hispanics, of course, are native citizens, eh?). Sometimes I wonder where all the white people are these days. Do they all have office jobs or something? Is that why all the services jobs seem to be done, now, by new immigrants? I wonder where the whites are. One of my grandfathers was a mail man, another drove a bus and they supported families in the middle class. . . nowadays, can a bus driver support and wife and many children? The world spins beyond my understanding, that's for sure.

It's not a white world. It never was. I don't know how so many whites have managed to bully others throughout history but, come on, it hasn't only been whites. Look at the caste system in India. . . racial domination has been alive and well in India since forever. And does anyone know much about African history, esp. contemporary African history. Nigeria has some of the largest oil reserves on the planet, which should provide enough wealth for the many milions of Nigerias, almost all of whom are black. Who is oppressing black Nigerians? Black Nigerians. There are black, corrupt, dominators in black Africa cheating other blacks. It's not just white people who are cruel dominators.

I can understand that some nonwhites see racism simplistically and blame whites for cultural domination but it isn't just white people who do it.

This race issue seems like a red herring. People of different races get along just fine when the class war agendas are stomped out. What it boils down to, yet again, is the class war being perpetrated by elites (of any race) against the people. You see in the US the elite class has a mix, not a real mix but there are WASPs and then some. What they all have in common is their determination to enslave their fellow human beings. Let's not get distracted with red herrings - the elites are public enemy number one.

NRA: Of course they want to come to the US, it stole everything!

I was born in Flushing but raised in North Carolina. For many years we spent summer vacation in Flushing at my grandmother's.
I was always amazed at the different ethnic cultures there. Going from the Van Wyck north on Main St. was like being in eastern Europe and ending in Korea. What has always impressed me was that there( and in Elmhurst) all these people get along where back in their country of origin such a mixture would cause a war. Maybe things are different here because the rents are so high or maybe because it isn't home it's doable. For the forty plus years of visiting Flushing, I never felt any of these ethnic groups took any thing away
from any one. They were just making it here like my grand parents did when they came over 85 and 90 years ago from eastern Europe.Besides in Flushing now you no longer have to go to the lower East side for good Chinese food. Some of our friends refer to it as Flu-shing.. We all need to relax more and enjoy the mix as it is most enlightning.

I would add to Lucky Lefty's comment that the problem is not just country of orgin, skin color, or gender. We need to add "white trash" to the list of the disenfranchised.

This economic segregation has been going on since the founding of this country. But with the growing ranks of the poor, the disproportionate gap between the rich and poor, and the current meltdown of the middle class, things are going to get a whole lot worse here in Amerika. Of course, the rich filth have already prepared for a mass uprising. Of course they will come for the most identifiable first: The arabs, the hispanics, the blacks. But they will eventually come for you too.

Without representation for all Ameicans, the protections of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and without the rule of law, we are lost. Until we all realize that we are all being manipulated by those with money and power, we are lost. Until we realize and truely accept that what is done to others is done to all of us, we are lost.

I like Mr. Tristam's comment about feeling "renewed and reassured" after riding the 7. I always feel fascinated to be in a place where I can hear lots of unfamiliar languages around me. I don't understand the revulsion at anyone or anything foreign. As for the country becoming less white in the future - that's the nature of history, isn't it? Things change - you can't always belong to the team that's number one. I took a trip to Latvia a few years ago, where my own family immigrated from, and walked through the 800 year old city of Riga. Riga has, through most of its history been controlled by "foreigners", non-Latvians. They've all left their mark on the city for better or worse. What struck me was the ugliness and evident brutality showing in the relics of the soviet era as opposed to the remnants of others who had passed through. We all contribute something - will we be remembered for good or bad, for embracing change or trying to cling to what we have by shutting out others?

Almost 30 years ago, there was a wonderful community organizer by the name of Aaron Weiss.

When Flushing, the start of the the 7 line started changing to some degree deteriorating physically, and from white ethnics to include more Indians, Asians and others, some in Flushing were apprehensive or negative.

Aaron helped found the Greater Flushing Tenants Council and created a wonderful street fair that in 1980 started out at Main and Roosevelt,the largest intersection in Flushing. It was called Flushing Fantastic. 250,000 people attended this street fair.

His subsequent efforts to make Queens better ran afoul of the Regular Democrats including Borough President Donald Manes and his henchmen. In his race against the corrupt Queens Democratic leadership, a ballot access lawsuit and counterlawsuit ensued.

Aaron was thrown off the ballot and a federal ballot access lawsuit began. Some gains occurred because of it.

Before multicultural was part of our everyday vocabulary, Aaron lived it, and helped it along with like-minded people to make it happen.

And Queens is a better place because of it.

Having married into the 'droves', 'NRA Freedom', I can assure you that the 'drove' family didn't have a clue to what they were doing when they came and still don't have a clue to what they're doing while they stay. They just saw an interesting product advertised and decided to buy it on credit.

Fight or flight is in our genes, but compassion and understanding are higher human principles that we do have the capacity to use to uplift ourselves and overcome reactionary "animal" base instincts (inherited from our reptilian brothers).

Each moment we can chose, let it be humankind based, and not inconsiderate territorial (mostly extinct) reptilian ways.

Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King

Discrimination and intolerance must be in our genes. The square foot that I occupy must be sacred. Even the square feet around me is sacred. Don't dare invade my air space. Who says we are more intelligent than lions, tigers, chimps, cats, dogs, ets.
The Rockers and the white suprmacists are among us and will always be among us!

"...as the de-whitening of the country can rattle some people."

Pierre, your marvelous gift for restrained understatement strikes again. White America (dare I say, Aryan America) will engage in mass hysterical violence and 'nativist' movements across this country the like of which haven't been seen since the Mass Klan Rallies in the first 3 decades of the 20th century. They will put so many people into the streets to demand maintenance of "White Privilege" - the numbers will put the Left to shame. And that's the problem.

White America collectively may not believe in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. What they do believe without equivocation or a ripple of doubt is that one White Male is worth 10, 20, 100, 100000 people of color here or around the globe. White people stole this country through genocide, not a plebiscite. White people built this country with racialized slave labor, not with negotiated union contracts. Do you think they will give up their 'perceived' Privilege (Latin: Private Law) just because they are a minority?

When you add Gender Slavery to Aryan Supremacy and Racialized Slavery - you have cut to the bone. Gender slavery is the 30 cent white male's chip in Master's Slave Game. Free labor for life that pops out more free labor for as long as the gender slave lives. Nothing builds wealth like Slave Labor.

I wonder if the "droves" really know what they are getting into.