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TechnoratiMilitary Tribunals and You
I have just returned from five days in Egypt. To me, visiting foreign countries is so enlightening as an American who grew up as parochial and nationalistic as the next. However, since my son was killed in Iraq, I have had a crash course in foreign "relations" and cultures that came with a too steep price.
Ironically, I was in Egypt because 40 members of the Muslim Brotherhood are being tried in military tribunals. Trying civilians in a military tribunal is against every law one can name (except in the US where we have the Military Commissions Act that contradicts international law and our own Constitution). While I was in Egypt to stand in solidarity with the families of the accused, I heard on the BBC about six men being tried at Guantanamo for the crime against humanity that occurred here on 9-11.
I turned on the TV in my motel room just as a military officer was reading the charges against the six detainees and for a brief moment my heart skipped a beat with joy. I mistakenly believed that the officer was reading charges against BushCo: "killing civilians; destroying civilian property and committing acts of terrorism." My happiness that someone-anyone in our nation was taking his oath to "protect and defend our Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic" seriously was short-lived, though, as the pictures of the six accused flashed on the screen.
Although the case against Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, et al and the 40 members of the Muslim Brotherhood could not be more different, there are also some similarities. We all know that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is accused of being the "mastermind of 9-11" (hey, wasn't that Osama bin Laden before it was Saddam Hussein?); however, very few Americans know about the case of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.
Of course, when some people hear the term "Muslim Brotherhood," they are automatically going to be translating that into "terrorist." These are the same people who get their "news" from Fox and believe that almost 5 million "terrorists" have been killed wounded or displaced in Iraq. These people could not be more wrong about the people of Iraq or the Muslim Brotherhood (MB). According to a scholarly article in Foreign Affairs (March/April 2007), the MB "reject global Jihad while embracing elections and other features of democracy." The MB is a moderate Islamist group that is the largest and most influential in the world. The MB promotes change through the ballot box, non-violent protest and charity. As a woman, I may not like that the men (always nicely garbed in Western suits) wipe their hands off on their coats after they shake my hand, but they are in no way terrorists and are often targeted by radical Islamist groups that do not agree with the MB's moderate positions.
It seems that the "crime" that the MB has committed in Egypt is winning too many seats in Parliament (as Independents as the MB is an outlawed organization in Egypt) and in coalition could have been an effective opposition voice to Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak who has been a puppet of American Imperialists since 1981. I heard many citizens in his country from cab drivers to tour guides derisively (and quietly) refer to Mubarak as "President for Life." Anyway, in an early morning raid over one year ago, 40 members of the MB were rounded up in tactics that reminded me of stories that my Iraqi friends have recounted: yelling soldiers bursting into their homes wearing riot gear and brandishing terrifying weapons, frightening women and children and hauling off the breadwinner to be swallowed by the depths of a prison in moves calculated to instill terror and suppress dissent.
After four civilian courts exonerated the accused, Mubarak had the prisoners transferred to a military prison and given a kangaroo court trial. The families are expecting a pre-determined guilty verdict that could carry strict sentences. And of course, George Bush, who is a paragon of virtue and respects "human rights and human dignity," (BBC interview, Feb 15th) has harshly condemned Mubarak and has threatened to withhold some American largesse (Egypt is second only to Israel in US aid) due to the gross violations of international law and human rights, right? Well, not exactly. While Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, among others, have condemned the Egyptian government for this travesty, BushCo has been oddly silent.
Of course, although George can say that he has the "moral high ground," (BBC, again), the US is one of the international leaders in detaining people without due process and has committed water torture and other inhumane practices in the Middle East and in our own backyard in Guantanamo.
While I was in Guantanamo, Cuba and Cairo, Egypt advocating for human rights, I dared not make any judgment of an individual detainee's guilt or innocence. Although the MB 40 have been acquitted four times, I cannot presume to judge the "evidence" that I haven't seen, anyway. And although the confessions of the six that will be on trial for 9-11 were garnered through torture, I of course, cannot judge their guilt or innocence, because I have not seen (nor will see) the evidence against them. This is the inherent problem of military tribunals: they are neither transparent nor fair and there is almost always a foregone verdict. This secrecy is not fair to the victims either, who deserve to know the "truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth," and rarely receive anything resembling "the truth."
How do these military tribunals in Egypt and Guantanamo affect us here in the US? Americans always receive fair and equal treatment under the law, right? Wrong! Madam Justice's fabled scales are heavily weighted to benefit the wealthy or the established ruling class. Ask any person of color or poor citizen here how the American justice system works for them. There is no place for secrecy or suppression of dissent in any free, open or democratic society. In allowing these military tribunals to continue, the very cornerstone of human rights is being shattered.
One does not have to be clever or have a particularly vivid imagination to fear an even harsher police state in America where any of us can be rounded up, tortured, and tried for opposing the government. Detention centers are already being built.
Besides, for argument's sake, even if these military tribunals have absolutely no implication here in America, humans are being profoundly hurt by the policies of our allied governments that are dancing the "Totalitarian Two-step" and as MLK, Jr. wrote from the Birmingham Jail:
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
* * *
Cindy Sheehan is the mother of Spc. Casey Austin Sheehan who was KIA in Iraq on 04/04/04. She is a co-founder and President of Gold Star Families for Peace and the author of two books: Not One More Mother's Child and Dear President Bush.
54 Comments so far
Show AllJohnthenet
Are you asserting that John McCain is a liar and an opportunist?
John McCain says that torture is not acceptable. 'Torture' is the word he used - not any cheap euphemisms. The man knew torture.
I defy you to undergo it and call it anything but torture. Anyone who calls it other than what it is, is a damned liar - and far from a patriot.
lizard: When one of those "immature children" as you call them, points their assault rifle at you, are you going to think "Oh poor guy" or are you gonna think "Oh fuck, this psycho is gonna shoot me"... If it's the latter, he's your enemy.
elmysterio and lizard, you both are correct. lizard, maybe the military isn't our enemy, just yet. i think it's headed that way. therefore, our right to keep and bear arms.
El Mysterio: The military is not your enemy, they are the expression of the people's will. The enemy is the mentality of the American people. The military, and especially the soldiers, are pawns in the game. The soldiers are immature children who are manipulated by their elders who decide what they can and cannot see and hear. The soldiers are both war criminals and victims, both thanks to their elders. Isn't that familiar? Almost all criminals are victims too.
Ramshey: This is a censored site, they all are. Don't diss the troops and respect people's belief in God. So far that is how I understand it. What did they get you for?
Where did my posting go ? The Thought Police around?
jonthenet 02.18/3:42 & 8:27pm - oh great, another believer in extracting false information to put together an intelligence report. thanks for acknowledging that there are assholes such as yourself in our military. the only problem with that, actually there are many, is that my tax dollars support your imbecilic thought process, or lack thereof.
actually, i relish "diverse thought." your thought process, right in line with dickhead cheney, is far from diverse. have any children? perhaps a daughter? how would you feel if she received the treatment you so gleefully condone? think, you loser.
Jim Glover Said On February 19th, 2008 9:59 am:
"Elmysterio,
If you want to view the military as your enemy, be my guest.
I work at turning the military to the side of peace.
Obama knows this and he has the approch that will work.
If you want to get on the militarys enemy list…maybe you just did…. I will say you are a fool.
But I don't think they think you are the enemy….just a fool."
The Fact that you say the military has an "enemies" list and I got myself put on it and am being a fool really says something. Think about what you wrote there... don't criticize the military otherwise you're on their hit list! That's insane man! You can't turn a bunch of robotic trained killers into a force of peace. THAT is foolish.
Picture this situation... Bush declares martial law over some trumped up "terrorist" attack... and suddenly the streets are flooded with soldiers ... The People protests against Bush seizing power like that. What do you think the military is going to do against the protesters? They're gonna start shooting them like the do in Iraq. Don't kid yourself. They'll kill their own people... and it'll be "I was just following orders sir". If someone is going to shoot me because of my political beliefs, you better believe I'll look at them like an enemy.
Ascott--- Your dream world is nice when your asleep however, we all need to wake up eventually.
McCain goes "Lib" from time to time, I think he would eventually allow the military to get the info however they needed to. He was recently asked that type of question and did the standard please both sides of the issue. I'm not that happy with him.
Remember torture is your guys word, Patriots use "rough interrogation" or whatever the latest saying is.
Information is the goal. If the info is bad or good proper interrogation along with other sources will bring the truth to light. Also, some of the info we got from Gitmo came from having a pizza with the suspects, it depends on the terrorist, just allow the interrogators to use what they need, They are the professionals they will use what works.
Don't feed the troll.
I think is a specific example of the more general agreement among governments that we won't protest the way you deal with your terrorists if you don't bother us about ours. It's all part of the semantics the ruling class uses. You know, Russia subduing Chechneya is their domestic problem, China occupying Tibet is tacitly approved. In return, they keep their mouths shut when we invade Afghanistan and Iraq, because they don't have enough geopolitical/economic interests there to make it worth the risk. And that's why we don't attack Burma. Their regime is at least as bad as Saddam's( and worse than Iran's by far) but it borders China and would violate its sense of a Monroe-type doctrine. The U.S. government is certainly not going to go to the mat for forty Muslims in Egypt when it probably wants to maintain agreements for future extraordinary renditions to that country.
Elmysterio,
If you want to view the military as your enemy, be my guest.
I work at turning the military to the side of peace.
Obama knows this and he has the approch that will work.
If you want to get on the militarys enemy list...maybe you just did.... I will say you are a fool.
But I don't think they think you are the enemy....just a fool.
Yeap, Jonthent(Feb 18 2;47 and more) and Paul Bramsher U live in a dream built by mainstream media. Read MimiCcS - 2nd above mine: she is right on. The freedom u think U and I have is a joke reserved to the internet which is constantly monitored. As far as the internment/concentration camps Cindy Sheehan refers to, they started the building way before the mentioned Halliburton contracts, under Bill Clinton actually.
For info about this watch "9/11 the road to tyranny", "Terror storm" and other movies by Alex Jones (infowars.com),-some avail on google video for free. U may WAKE UP from Ur dream turned into a nightmare as U watch. One of my friends -then age 86 or so- predicted Americans were ready for dictatorship coming slowly (on velvet path)cause they didn't know history. She said Reagan was putting us on the Fascist path; I did not believe her then. I do now.
Wake up, cause when they come to get U there will be nobody left to defend U -paraphrasing again to compensate for bad memory.
On help to Israel (a terrorist state no matter what definition U use -under governments they elected) I believe the figure given by mimi does not include large "loans", none of which has been repaid and never will! Who covers that in "mainstream" news?
I have Jewish friends,2 Iranian, and 1 Arab friend who read and study history: they agree.
chris
Yep, that rings true for me
"On March 26, 2007, 34 amendments to the Egyptian constitution
were approved in a popular referendum widely considered to be
managed by pro-government forces. Amnesty International called the amendments the "greatest erosion of human rights in 26 years" in Egypt.
Amended Article 179 allows the president to have civilians tried in military courts and eliminates protections against arbitrary search and arrest in offenses related to terrorism. "
Sounds like they are just following Bush. I guess we are exporting our "democratic" values and influencing other countries to reverse course on democracy. They justify it by telling their people, "the US is doing it". Thats leadership the world could do without.
Also, we have sent a number of AQ suspects to Egypt for "interrogations", so I guess it is hard to criticize if they do the same on their own "terrorism suspects".
Anyone refusing to recognize the dangers of our policies to the "Homeland" is either a fool or a fascist agent. The freedom of speech you have thus far is fine so long as you restrict it to the internet where they can record your views and IP addresses, to disappear you when the time is right. Doesn't matter if you use a fictitous name or real name (yours or an enemy of yours), they got you either way. Don't let it go to your head though. For a true test of freedom of speech, see what happens to you if you have a job in a business or university that depends on government funds, or relies on corporate advertising, and you exercise your freedom of speech publicly on issues like 9/11 and Israel's genocide against the Palestinians. Your freedom is an illusion, why do you think the MSM is controlled, some of it is censorship, but a lot is self-censorship. I find most of the interesting news on the US in London newspapers that never gets covered in the US. Many blogs are also self-censoring, even progressive blogs.
As for the Muslim Brotherhood, it is an illegal group in Egypt, but is said to have renounced terrorism and is now mainly a political group, and has broad support among the Egyptian middle class. They run as independents since they are not formally recognized by the government. If the people want to vote for MB Sharia law, and most have not, who are we to judge?.
We give Egypt 2 billion a year in aid (25 dollars per person) which was basically a bribe to make nice with Israel, and have been doing so since 1979, and Israel, who is one of the worlds worst human rights abusers receives over 3 billion per year (500 dollars per person).
In fact, some estimates of the total costs for supporting Israel and the conflict with Palestinians and their neighbours has been over 3 trillion in todays dollars.
http://www.washington-report.org/archives/june2003/0306020.html
With friends like these..........
Johnthenet
John McCain has stated publicly that torture is not an effective means of eliciting reliable information. The attitude is not the private reserve of liberals.
I've been tortured - though certainly not like McCain. I've been 'roughed up' - not physically - by the Chicago cops. Based on those experiences, I expect that, were I a prisoner at Guantanamo, I might have been willing to finger my own sister for 9/11, (even though she'd already been dead for several decades).
No, I can't see any thinking person being willing to consider accepting 'evidence' gained through torture. Nor can I see any decent human being condoning its use.
Let me remind you: once you allow the torture of non-citizens, you are more than half-way to allowing the torture citizens.
Of more immediacy, there are a lot of Americans who are currently in foreign lands, (i.e., places where they are non-citizens). If the US can torture suspects from other countries, why can't other countries torture Americans? and 'fry them,' based on 'information' gotten through torture? Want to back that idea? I certainly don't.
The simple use of expressions like 'fry s-o' shows a lack of respect for human life.
Jonthenet, spoken like a true contract killer, congratulations. It's sickening to read on CD, of all places, military people like you brag about the US mass-murdering history.
By the way, I was educated long before Cindy Sheehan became known, so she has nothing to do with my awareness.
The Constitution is trash. The only thing that will help is to hold the traitors accountable and draft a NEW magna carta.
Actually Bush, who is famously dyslexic, thought his oath said "pervert and offend the Constitution and laws of the United States." Oops.
Jcrumb because of your post you joined me in using a big bomb to kill a bunch of "innocent" terrorist in Iraq. Now it depends. If you own your computer it means sales tax, paid to a big evil corporation. then your ISP connection phone/cable/DSL includes ever increasing fees (liberal speak for taxes) you plugged in you computer to an outlet powered by a Global Warming increasing power company, which charges taxes.
Or, you could use a internet cafe and be one step removed. Anyway thank you for you help in killing islamic terrorist. Happy posting
jcrumb: Stop paying taxes might have worked at one time, but now, I doubt it means anything at all. They are obviously just printing money --or-- just saying its there...eMoney can be made up out of thin air. Or, the money will come from "foreigners" which is big part of it. We supply the "police" (or hoodlums..and more of them are Mexicans and contractors) to run the joint (the world) and there you go. We have no real country or currency anymore. It just doesn't exist, in my opinion...
lino- afraid of diverse thought, you need to be alittle more tolerant of other people's view. Hypocrite
Jim Glover said:"Southern Command that is cool…..
These guys are on our side."
Wrong. They are NOT on your side. They wouldn't think twice about disappearing you if you got in their way. The Government & the military are NOT your friends. They are the enemy.
David Greyling: Yes, we are all being watched... and recorded... and once the police state has come to full fruition, disappeared.
Paul Revere said on February 18th, 2008 12:52 pm: "and they need to be tried for their most egregious, crimes against America!"
Crimes against humanity aren't the most egregious crimes? Crimes against America are more serious? Does that mean Americans are super-human, better than the rest of us?
What amazes me is that they are so blatant about it, leave an open trail.
Such arrogance suggests that they think they can do whatever they like, just like Bush. Perhaps they are trying to frighten people, to cower them, to make them stop criticizing.
They picked the wrong person with me! Glad to see there are others!
www.dangerouscreation.com
jonthenet, unfortunately, you're not the first dirt ball to roll thru this site. really, before we all tell you what we really think of you, just roll away.
I can list about two dozen things here that don't compute.
Let's say you get a call from some guys in Egypt, you've never met them, they're a religious group that believes in mingling religion and politics, and want to fly you out to advocate for people you've never met, you have no evidence if they're guilty as sin (or totally innocent). Or whether they'll kidnap you the moment you get off the plane.
No, something REALLY doesn't compute with this story. It raises an eyebrow to be sure.
Thanks
The Human Race keeps on trying the same old thing and keeps on getting the same result. Sociopaths rise to the top, they look like the rest of us on the outside but the qualities that make us humane are not included in their make-up. Government, Religion and Business, all being run by people who look ok on the outside, but are Ted Bundies on the inside. In order to survive, I think we must start to protect society from those who do not give back as much as they take.
ticonderoga: Now, if we could all get together . . . .
We don't have to all get together. We can practice our principles anywhere, so whether you're in the US or on the other side of the world, the same behavior tends toward the same result - you're either supporting the elites or you're supporting the people.
Now the chimp got plenty of criticism for saying something similar but in fact what the chimp said was true - you can't have it both ways - you're either with the elites or you're with the people - it's a gross over-simplification but you have to learn to crawl before you learn to walk and you have to be able to make the basic selection before you make a higher order selection. In America, the people can't even make the basic selection between elite interests and their own interests.
Now the second thing is we don't need to get together because organization is corruptible - you build it, they infiltrate it, and sabotage it, and turn it against you. You name it, they've sabotaged it already. So now we are learning to act individually, in the same direction but without central command/control that may be sabotaged. So everyone does their individual thing to support the people and squash the elites. Localism is a great way to keep the energy away from the elites.
So consider the small independent community to which you belong a great asset, and continue to strengthen it (politically/economically) by doing exchange/association only within the community, and look and see what others are doing, and everyone join the wave, the movement, but without coordination - to avoid sabotage - this is how the people build sustainable defenses against the oppression of elites.
Hi David Grayling,
I've visited your blog, and found it interesting. But I suspect that most of us here are just little people (I know I am), little people who don't have enough clout to bother the powers-that-be, at least individually.
Now, if we could all get together . . . .
Jonthenet February 18th, 2008 2:47 pm
Alot of anger toward Bush and Cheney, Real Americans turn their anger toward the 6 gulity Islamic-terrorists.
I'm sure somewhere there is a "lib" who will cheer with me when these guys fry.
Do you guys really lose sleep over the fact we make terrorists talk through waterboarding, Sheehan articles or Obama speeches.
Has freerepublic shut down for some reason or another?
You would cheer someone being put do death would you? I would not.
You cheer someone being tortured? Barbarian.
Real americans aren't angry with bush et dick's ursurption of power? Not angry with the massive amount of debt that they're piling onto generations yet unborn? Not upset that the americans have become the planet's pariah state? Not upset at all about their loss of the right to have a free and fair trial?
Who are these real americans you are talking about? And how long have they been members of the NSAWP? (national sociopathic american whiner's party?)
Southern Command that is cool.....
These guys are on our side.
The fact that they are listening means we have something important to say.....
According to the Prophecy
The Cheney/Bush gang don't believe in suffrage, they just believe in suffering. In that they are an equal opportunity deployer. You have the right to suffer regardless of race, creed or natural origin, as long as you are not fabulously wealthy or have not mortgaged your soul to them.
It is a simple concept, really. Even a trained monkey could master it (and he has).
Hey, guys, I made two comments on Frida's thread about nukes and next minute I see on my Sitemeter a 'long' visit which was revealed to be the UNITED STATES SOUTHERN COMMAND (I wrote a post about it).
Be assured: everyone here is being watched and your details are being recorded. Smile for the camera!
www.dangerouscreation.com
MeAlsoToo--- [You see (and this should 'ring of truth' even to you), when a person (any person) is tortured, they don't mind saying ANYTHING, 'true' or otherwise — they immediately/'really' just want the 'torture to stop'.
Guess what, we just extracted info from them. False info or not. Put it with other info from other scum we then can put together intelligence to be looked over. We don't get the entire story from one source, several sources can tell us the grand scheme. Torture gets us info period
Gee Cindy,
If Id a known you were goin to Egypt I could have sent you Sami al Arian's wife Nahla's address.
Sami may be released soon and join most of the family in Egypt.
I hope the House just does nothing to give Bush his get out of Jail free card by granting immunity.... He is telling the world "give me imunity for my crimes or I will hang mself!"
We have given him all the rope he needs now and all we got to do is hang on and when he screams "Uncle!" we ask "Uncle Who?"....
I have got Obama Mania and I just got through givin Ralph Nader a pep talk...Well sorta...
The Good fight is fun...
Love Ya, Jim
Paul Bramscher February 18th, 2008 3:56 pm:
"Lots of curious commentary there, anonymous friend. Even Bush believes in women's suffrage.
Other than seeing the pyramids at Giza, I've got no interest in spending several hundred dollars (for a single ticket, let alone for my family) to chat politics. I'm certain there's much more than meets the eye here."
Paul (if that is your real name, oh my gosh, you mean there are anonymous posters here! Be afraid, be very afraid!) my paranoid, incurious, friend,
If Bush believes in women's suffrage then why were millions of women's ballots not counted in Florida and other states in the 2000 election for example? I don't think Bush believes in women's suffrage anymore than he believes in fair trials for accused persons. The current American government's idea of rights is that you have them until the government says you are an "enemy combatant" and you don't. Egyptians are quite familiar with this form of tyranny and could tell you that if one person's liberties are diminished, it diminishes the security and freedoms of everyone.
Oh, and if you think that the pyramids are all there is in Egypt then I won't shock you by telling you that there is more to the US than the statue of liberty:)
STOP PAYING FOR IT...STOP PAYING YOUR TAXES..THIS IS PERHAPS THE ONLY TRUE "POWER" WE HAVE LEFT..THE POWER OF THE PURSE..YOU ARE PAYING FOR THE WATERBOARDING, UNTIL YOU STOP PAYING FOR IT, YOU AE COMPLICIT...PERIOD! YOU ARE PAYING FOR AN ILLEGAL WAR, FOR KIDNAPPING AND MURDER (BECAUSE IF YOU THINK THAT YOU KNOW THE WHOLE STORY THEN YOU REALLY ARE AN IDIOT..SORRY..BUT IT'S TRUE!)
SO STOP PAYING, BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE..WHAT IS NEEDED, AND PERHAPS REALLY THE ONLY THING THAT CAN STOP THIS INSANE RUSH TO CORPORATE FASCISM..IS IF WE RALLY TOWARD A MASSIVE...MASSIVE TAX RESISTANCE..HOW FAST DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD LISTEN IF 100 MILLION OF YOU DID NOT PAY YOUR TAXES...???? IT WOULD BE EITHER CHANGE..OR MARTIAL LAW..AND EITHER ONE WOULD BE BETTER THAN THIS SLOW BOIL..EITHER BACK ON TRACK..FIRST AND FOREMOST THE CONSTITUTION..OR GET IT OVER WITH AND SHOW YOUR TRUE COLORS..MARTIAL LAW, NEW CIVIL WAR..
STOP PAYING..I AM NOT PAYING FOR THIS WAR, FOR ILLEGAL SPYING, FOR THE ARMY OF BUREAUCRATS, FOR THE BILLIONS SPENT FORMING THE MERCENARY ARMY THAT WILL GLADLY KNOCK DOWN YOUR DOOR AND HANG YOU IN THE TOWN SQUARE AND RAPE YOUR WIFE...YEAH..THAT'S RIGHT...THAT IS WHAT IS AT STAKE..PERIOD..IT HAS HAPPENED..IT IS BEING TESTED, THE CAMPS ARE BUILT, IT'S PREDETORY COERCION AND YOU ARE PAYING FOR IT..NOT I..JOIN ME! S-T-O-P P-A-Y-I-N-G T-A-X-E-S!
FIGHT THE O(IL)PPRESSOR!
RESIST!
RESIST!
O beautiful, for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain.
For purple mountains majesty,
Above the stolen plain.
America, America,
God saw the blood on thee,
And crowned thy good,
With a black hood,
For everyone to see.
I agree with Paul, except for the 1st sentence of his post. All else is indisputable.
"Do you guys really lose sleep over the fact we make terrorists talk through waterboarding..."
If the next yo-yo they 'happen' to waterboard knows YOUR name, shall I Cry or Cheer when YOU then "get fried", later?
[You see (and this should 'ring of truth' even to you), when a person (any person) is tortured, they don't mind saying ANYTHING, 'true' or otherwise -- they immediately/'really' just want the 'torture to stop'.
That, sir, is exactly Why torture-is-useless, and should be 'against all Laws'. [You may THINK it can be 'justified' by a 'greater-good', but that SIMPLY 'won't work in a real-world', now will-it?]
jlocke123,
Lots of curious commentary there, anonymous friend. Even Bush believes in women's suffrage.
Other than seeing the pyramids at Giza, I've got no interest in spending several hundred dollars (for a single ticket, let alone for my family) to chat politics. I'm certain there's much more than meets the eye here.
It's too bad Jack Web didn't have more time at the start of Dragnet. Because we now have the right to remain silent, and that's it, so shut up.
I don't watch the big corporate networks, but every once in a while when I am trying to get FreeSpeech TV going I hit on one and they often appear to be a scene out of the movie "1984," especially when the Chimp is on.
Hey Tetti_tatti, welcome to this nation, I hope your stay here is profitable. You have the learned the "Liberal" language very well, Miss Sheehan should get a check for her education of you.
I would never walk away from you after your statement. Being former military I would say thank you, because according to your "slanted" history I did my job well.
Paul Bramscher February 18th, 2008 2:55 pm:
Paul Bramscher : "Islam has less of an historical intellectual/democratic tradition than our own. If I was in position to travel to these areas, had guides, interpreters, etc. I'd meet with academics and secular humanists in other countries. Not those who'd freely mingle religion and regressive politics."
Paul, Have you ever traveled to Egypt or the Middle East? I have. It's not brain surgery. You buy a ticket and get on a plane. Sometimes you need a visa. That's all.
Perhaps it is different in your country. In mine, we are permitted to travel freely and we do. Travel broadens the mind. I've even been to the US. That was before Bush. I wouldn't go there now for love or money.
I'd say the best thing the peace movement could do is encourage more people to follow Sheehan's example and see the world, warts and all. They can then take back the best practices of others and avoid the pitfalls. But be warned, if you go, you might actually learn something from someone who disagrees with you:)
Paul Bramscher : "Nor do I see my personal safety at threat with detention centers. As much as I deeply dislike the direction Bush and the other plutocrats have taken this country, it's pretty clear to me that they've given loose canons like me more freedom of speech than I'd have in many other countries, especially religious states."
Paul, If all you want is to stay out of Guantanamo and have more freedom than is had in "religious states" then you should be alright for a while.
Paul Bramscher : "We need to be building secular zones in which free speech, free exchange of political discourse, etc. is encouraged. Meeting with groups whose members oppose women's suffrage is ridiculous. A good way to prevent the peace movement from gaining any serious traction. Why?"
Paul, remember it wasn't that long ago that women couldn't vote in the US. If you are willing to talk to people only if they already agree with you on everything, it will be a short conversation.
Another great article Cindy, as refreshing as ever. As a foreigner living in the US, I often encounter Americans in cocktail parties and other social gatherings who criticize 3rd world nations for their crime rates, which are, in my country's case, poverty related 95% of the time. They call us 'uncivilized' and 'barbaric.'
I remind them that these crimes pale in comparison to what Americans are committing in Abhu Graib, Guantanamo and other secret prisons as we speak. The torture, the rape and permanent imprisonment of countless people without allowing them access to attorneys or a fair trial. Not to mention the incineration and mass killing of civilians during the countless illegal invasions of the last 60-plus years. They change the subject or walk away, of course.
I've been wondering about your campaign against Pelosi, Cindy, since I don't see anything on the MSM (surprise)! How's that going?
jlocke:
Islam has less of an historical intellectual/democratic tradition than our own. If I was in position to travel to these areas, had guides, interpreters, etc. I'd meet with academics and secular humanists in other countries. Not those who'd freely mingle religion and regressive politics.
Nor do I see my personal safety at threat with detention centers. As much as I deeply dislike the direction Bush and the other plutocrats have taken this country, it's pretty clear to me that they've given loose canons like me more freedom of speech than I'd have in many other countries, especially religious states.
We need to be building secular zones in which free speech, free exchange of political discourse, etc. is encouraged. Meeting with groups whose members oppose women's suffrage is ridiculous. A good way to prevent the peace movement from gaining any serious traction. Why?
Alot of anger toward Bush and Cheney, Real Americans turn their anger toward the 6 gulity Islamic-terrorists.
I'm sure somewhere there is a "lib" who will cheer with me when these guys fry.
Do you guys really lose sleep over the fact we make terrorists talk through waterboarding, Sheehan articles or Obama speeches.
Paul Bramscher February 18th, 2008 1:29 pm:
"I'm worried about several threads in this article…
And why exactly should we who decry the influence peddling of the fundies (whether Christian or Jewish) but see no problems with the third?"
I'm not sure what you mean about influence peddling. I think more than one person has criticized the US for giving thousands of millions of dollars every year to the Egyptian regime. The US leaves the support of the democratic groups up to donors from other countries.
I guess I'm a fan of the separation of church and state too, but such a separation only imparts benefits to citizens if they live in a democracy with respect for human rights and the rule of law. Whether a dictatorship calls itself Christian, Jewish, Muslim or secular should make no difference to the democratic parties that are trying to free themselves from it.
Egypt is far from being a democracy. Some of the strong opposition to the State is inspired by religion. Some is inspired by the secular west. Those who believe in the secular framework are hindered by the bad example set by the US, the most visible model of this type. That is where this article comes in. It makes the link between the damage done to justice inside America with the damage done outside America.
Cindy is valiant, brilliant and nearly tireless. May her transmutation continue, as a Patriot of the Planet, and of course of America. Our 800 years of dignities and decencies signed when the Battle of Runnymede brought down the Bushie of the day, the evil King John, were brought to an end ON PAPER by the Bushie of this day, in the Miitary Tribunals Act of Oct. 2006.
"Habeas Corpus" is the most sublime, elevated single legal concept of English law. It is a COMMAND TO THE KING (or the Bushie): "HAVE that PERSON."
It means, quite simply, that no Bushie, no King, can DISAPPEAR anyone. The prisoner must exist, and that must be publicly constantly shown and witnessed without fail. To know where, who, and why any prisoner is held, and all the rights that follow such as due process and the right to confront one's accusers, depend on this first great concept of HABEAS CORPUS.
This most ancient and sacred right has been specifically removed from us.
And without that, no right whatsoever exists. If you are disappeared, no have no right to assemble.
The American Revolution was fought over the denial of such rights by the British upon the Colonials:
The great Magna Charta is wounded severe;
By accounts from the doctors, 'tis almost past cure.
Let's defend it with the sword, or die with the braves,
For we had better die in freedom, than live and be slaves.
******** (actual Revolutionary song)
The patriots of America must reclaim our freedoms, for the sake of the Forefathers and for the sake of our children, who are marked, along with the rest of the world, to be slaves, serfs, servants and soldiers, to be strong, stupid and dead at forty.
The mentality of the Bushies is simple: Lord of the Manor, the mediaeval mentality who wish no one to approach closely, whether intellectually, economically, socially or physically.
There is nothing more Un-American than the agenda of the people now in the White House, none of whom ever faced fire while sending others to face the missions they avoided. None of whom intend to obey the laws they make for others; none of whom intend to inhabit the prisons they build for profit.
I'm worried about several threads in this article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood
* Outside of Egypt, the group's political activity has been described as evolving away from modernism and reformism towards a more traditional, "rightist conservative" stance.
* For example, the Muslim Brotherhood party in Kuwait opposes suffrage for women.
I guess I'm a fan of the separation of church and state, equal rights, freedom of speech, etc. And why exactly should we who decry the influence peddling of the fundies (whether Christian or Jewish) but see no problems with the third? Something's not fully on the level here.
When will enough Americans say enough is enough and say we will no longer allow you to destroy our Constitution and The Bill of Rights and march Bush, Cheney out of the Whitehouse in straight jackets!This has gone way beyond impeachment, this is complicity in the highest treason to the country we love, and they need to be tried for their most egregious, crimes against America!