When is the world going to call this what it is? Genocide.

"If this enforced starvation of one and a half million people was happening to Americans, would they accept it?" said Abu Wael."

Well, if it's New Orleans . . .

And all we see are headlines about the Israelis injured by Palestinian rockets?

no unbiased reporting here - unh, unh

Reality TV? I think it's less than that. It's the homeless fellow we walk around on our way to work/home/Starbucks. Stay in the burbs and you can be blissfully unaware he exists at all.

Then again, as long as there are suicide bombers, I can't help but feel closer to Israel, generally. Let's continue the analogy: Say the homeless guy's a drunk, so he makes his own problem. This way I can dismiss him free of guilt. Religion is certainly a sort of social poison that has historically tended against peace in societies.

"Religion is certainly a sort of social poison that has historically tended against peace in societies."

I'm confused what you mean by that? Can you explain the relationship between religion and the Palestinian conflict?

This Counterpunch item is quite worthy, http://www.counterpunch.org/christison02142008.html

The introductory paragraph:

"You would think that showing maps clearly delineating the truncated, obviously non-viable area available for a possible Palestinian state and showing pictures that define Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories would have some kind of impact on an audience of astute but, on this issue, generally uninformed Americans. We recently spoke to a small foreign affairs discussion group and devoted much of our presentation to these images of oppression -- images that never appear in the U.S. media -- in the probably naïve hope of making some kind of dent in the impassive American attitude toward Israel's 40-year occupation of Palestinian territory."

Good article and I am glad to see Commondreams printing these stories in contrast to the usual propaganda and junk peddled elsewhere.

'As long as there are suicide bombers, I can't help but feel closer to Israel'. How about when YEARS go by WITHOUT suicide bombers? You don't notice. Check out B'tSelem for the statistics. See www.imemc.org for the daily bloodshed and kidnapping report.

Stilba - Based on your stance on suicide bombers, I presume you believe that the Japanese should have won the Battle of Midway? Waves of suicide attacks by obsolete US torpedo bombers delivered 0 warheads, but played a key role in the US victory. And that later, the US military deserved to win because the Japanese resorted to suicide attacks when desperate. Or, much earlier, did the Jewish defenders' suicide at Masada justify the Roman's actions?

Israel is plagued by (occasional) suicide bombings as a result of considerable killing of Palestinians by Israelis - far more killed by Israel than vice versa. And remember, the suicide bombings are retaliation for killing; the Israeli attacks are for the purpose of stealing land and ethnic cleansing, and to incite retaliation so they can cry "poor Jew" (even if they rejected the Covenant between God and the "Chosen people").

Suicide bombings are not some crazy religious rite*, they are a military response to a desperate situation. True warriors exalt suicide attackers (or defenders) above all others for their courage and sacrifice. (I am not extolling warrior culture, except in the rare instances when necessary.) It is Israel that created and deliberately sustains that desperate situation by refusing to consider a just peace (or even an unjust one that doesn't satisfy Israel's greed). [I note: Just because someone is homeless and drunk, it doesn't mean he caused his own situation. Maybe yes, maybe no. Booze is a lot cheaper than shelter, and there is a shortage of jobs that pay enough for the latter.]

*It is traditional for states to use religion to promote war, with the exception of state atheism as a substitute. Religion is not the source of the problem, although lack of religious integrity by leaders more concerned with the power of the church strongly contributes to the problem.

GDE...well said.

Suicide bombing as a weapon was perfected by the Tamil Tigers, NOT a religious thing that the zionist idiots would like you to believe.

The picture is a fake: The "farmer's" clothes are clean, and he shaved recently. Most likely this photo was taken at a wedding.

Disinformation like this does not serve well the Palestinian cause.

If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that? - David Ben Gurion (first Israeli Prime Minister), in Le Paradoxe Juif by Nahum Goldmann, 1976.

Suicide bombing started after Baruch Goldstein massacred 29 palestinian worshippers in a mosque.

Why did Hamas reseal the border?
This is idiocy.

You are starving but you reseal the border?

Bizarre.
They should have burst it open so it could never be resealed.
It is a lot more effective than a suicide bombing.

Israel is the problem but that doesnt mean the Palestinians are perfect. They make terrible mistakes.

They should not go to peace summits--that alone damns them because it is exactly what Israel wants..

horrified: Well, if we wish to bring up the Tamil Tigers, let's not leave out that their struggle is largely one of Hinduism versus Buddhism ...and this all goes back to the state declaring itself Buddhist in the 1970s.

gde: A kamakazi pilot smashing into enemy troops is one thing, but what we see with the Palestinians, and worse in Iraq (strapping bombs to retarded women and sending them into crowded markets), or in Russia (the Beslan school siege which blew up and killed more than three hundred mostly children) is enough to call into question everything about Islam (because it's all being done to the cry of Allahua Akbar).

Much respect to you both, but religion IS the main problem. Remove that and they could hope to handle the legal aspects of Israel's existence/expansion in the courts. Unfortunately, blowing people up makes them want to blow you up back.

kelmer: Baruch Goldstein massacred 29 palestinian worshippers in a mosque - religion, again.

WTF: "It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs." - religion, again.

The MSM in the USA is controlled by zionist synmpathizers.
The Palestinians never have and never will have their story told in a fair, unbiased manner. When it comes to the Middle East, Americans are wallowing in ignorance.

The Israeli - Palestinian conflict has always been about land and water since the Zionists stole Palestine lands with the connivance of the US and Europe allies.

The Israelis have hidden behind the garb of anti-semitism whenever criticized.

They learned the lessons of how to oppress/terrorize well from their treatment by the Nazi regime. And the West does not want to admit the horrible mistake when allowing the Irgun Gang and other Zionist terrorists to set up the state of Israel 60 years ago.

gde,

The PLO walked away from the table when the offer was East Jerusalem, all of the West Bank, Gaza, and uninterrupted passage between the two.

Precisely what constitutes a "just peace" offer? Does right of return have to be part of the deal? If so, do the all of the Jews expelled from Arab countries following the war in 1948 get their lands back (totalling 4 times the area of all of Palestine)?

Religion illiteracy: "Our God is not theirs" is 100% false as the God is Abraham's God, thus Abrahamic Religions. Also God may have promised, but it was to be given ONLY when God was satisfied the Israelites were WORTHY of occupying "God's Country." The current Israel exists in a state of SIN, one Israeli's make greater every second of every hour of every day. Will hell be big enough to hold them all?

Christian Europeans abused Jewish Europeans because they were Jewish, felt bad (or guilty, as Christians are wont), and "gave" the Jewish Europeans territory occupied by Islamic Arabs. Islamic Arabs orginally welcomed Jewish Europeans until plans surfaced for a Jewish state. The Jewish Europeans would settle for no less, and the disagreement became endless, exapnding conflict.

The territorial issue would have been a matter of mass-immigration if not for the insistance of the creation of a religiously Jewish state. One secular Palestine with Jews and Arabs is completely possible, but for those dreadfully religiously deranged individuals on both sides. Same thing happened in the US, only worse: the natives' children were stolen and sent to Christian schools ...all so we could have 50 Christian states.

Stiba, the issue in Palestine is not religious....it is land theft. read the history of George Habbash (a Christian) and you will understand it a little better. It is only religious in the Jewish point of view as THEY believe that God gave them that land and so they have the right to rid the land of non-jews. And to hell with the world. Should anyone criticize the israelis, they will pull out their antisemitic label on you.

Stilba
There are 3 conditions usually necessary before suicide attacks occur.
1) Repressive occupation by a foreign power that is..
2) Ostensibly democratic BUT... (and this is the bit you have emphasised)
3) Of a different religious belief.
The first Suicide attackers in History were, YES.. You guessed it, Jewish Zealots against Roman occupiers.
Today Gaza is under a horrific siege and don't bleat about "Israeli (i.e Jewish Zionist) losses" in the same breath..) In the last 2 years, approximately 1000 Gazans have been killed by the hightech industry made weapons that the Israelis use. 140 of them were children. In the same time, 11 "Israelis" have died from the puny homemade rockets Hamas use.
Some Israelis suffered and died because they live in Sderot.. Do you know what Arab village Sderot is built on?? Do you know what happened to it in 1948??

One of the latest tragic victims we are told of was a woman "hospitalised for a severe shock.." How tragic is that?? "A severe Shock.... " Jeeezzz..
So one shocked Zionist Jewess is as important as about 100 DEAD and maimed Palestinians?? That sounds a little racist to me.. What about you??

As horrified highlights, the underlying problem is ignorant and arrogant Zionist Imperialism that has created the obscenity of a new Apartheid in the Promised Land.

kendpotter..
Exactly which "agreement" are you talking about??
The Palestinians walked way from a fragmented "homeland" which gave the Israeli Occupation Forces total control over them... Just as Sharon Intended Just like the situation that has been forced on them..
Please give us all a reference for all "the Jews expelled from Arab Countries in 1948" Oh, and by the way, 1948 was not heroic "The War Of Independence" of Zionist mythology.. It was al Nakba, the Catastrophe, when Jewish Victims organised by their Zionist puppet masters, made victims of Palestine's Arab population. They planned to take their homes and destroy them and their society. Since then they continues to try and eradicate all memory of their crimes, even as they continue them.
They have failed..

By the way, have you noticed how less and less people are bothered by the "antisemite" label these days?? Wonder what that could possibly indicate..

Errata..
..ignorant and arrogant Zionist Imperialists who have..

Stilba, even if I accept your analogy that the homeless drunk guy gets what he deserves because he is responsible, the thing I have the problem with is punishing everyone who happens to be unlucky enough to live in his neighborhood.

WTF

'the picture is a fake'.... i agree. first, i haven't heard of animals eating carnations........(maybe they do) and second, i don't think a farmer would be carrying fodder on his shoulder. (unless he only had one animal to feed....) whatever, it doesn't look right...........
still, the palestinian problem is very disturbing.

What is it about the dreadful suffering of Palestinians that makes these ultraZionists posters on these boards froth at the mouth? This is the ultimate bullying by blaming the victim for being bullied in the first place. And on an enlightened progressive publication like Common Dreams I might ad!

Wow... lots of pious debate here about this... Reality is this though: What weapons do the Palestinians have to use against Israel except a few rusty AK-47s and home-made rockets and bombs? Suicide bombers are an act of desperation and I really don't blame them one bit. You bloody Americans can sit here and debate the finer points of the morality of it all but really, you don't have a leg to stand on. You have no point of reference to go by. You've never experienced the oppression of your country being stolen and your lands occupied... the daily humiliations, the murder of your relatives at the hands of the racist IDF. All along your American tax dollars are being used to kill people worldwide EVERY DAMN DAY... and all you can do is debate the morality of the suicide bomber. Arrogant assholes.

WTF said: "The picture is a fake: The "farmer's" clothes are clean, and he shaved recently. Most likely this photo was taken at a wedding.

Disinformation like this does not serve well the Palestinian cause"

WTF indeed. So you're saying a Palestinian farmer MUST be dirty and unshaven? That's hardly the case. People can and do wash their clothes and do on occasion shave their face. What a racist statement you made. Another bloody arrogant asshole.

coco: Another arrogant asshole... "I've never heard of it so it can't possibly be true". Bah. What the hell is wrong with you people!!!!

therzal, horrifed: "Stiba, the issue in Palestine is not religious….it is land theft." et al.

I hear you both, and agree that the colonization by religious zealots (zionists) is certainly a facet of the problem. But it all stems from religion. The entire region is a land promised to Jews in an ancient book ...that was the source of the idea, and the justification really, for the creation of Israel in the first place. And the zealots within the religious state will do anything to keep it (and expand it). Radical Judaism is a stupid brother to radical Christianity and Islam. Three stupid brothers.

Radical Islam is not only as bad but a little worse than the other two. The United States has military bases in Germany and Japan, but you don't see Germans or Japanese trying to blow up our buildings. Why? Secular societies have no equivilant to jihad. Of course, the secular we're-taking-your-resources-and-there's-nothing-you-can-do is absolutely evil (and nearly religious in its American/Israeli exceptionalism form). But it isn't include purposely blowing up children and other innocents, which Islam does. Collateral damage has no justification except that most faint sliver of decency that says it would avoid unnecessary casualties as far as is possible. Radical Islamic suicide attacks like we see around the globe don't even have that. This goes deeper than land.

therzal,

You call it "al Nakba, the Catastrophe". I call it picking a fight, with supreme arrogance and confidence in your superior numbers, and then getting your ass kicked by a better organized and more determined foe.

In any event, you avoided the question - What do you think would be a "just peace"?

As for your question - The U.N. has figures showing that 856,000 Jewish residents were expelled from Arab countries in 1948, of which about 600,000 resettled in Israel. They left behind property valued today at more than $300 billion. Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands has been estimated at 100,000 square kilometers. I was mistaken in my previous post. It was four times the size of the State of Israel, not all of Palestine. The Arab governments passed laws and decrees calling for imprisonment, confiscation of assets and forced induction into Arab armies. There were numerous instances of beatings, officially incited acts of violence and pogroms. As it turned out, the only Arab state in which it was safe to be a Jew was Iraq which had 150,000 up until 2003. Of course George Bush (the younger, stupider, more ass-holish, etc., etc.) saw to it that that place was wrecked for at least a couple of generations and now the Jewish population is estimated at 3000.

Stilba -

What about the Israelis shooting and killing schoolchildren for being near a fence or innocent families killed during home demolitions or the 100s of thousands cluster bombs dumped on civilian areas in southern Lebanon....etc, etc, etc.

The conflict is still about land not religion.

"If this enforced starvation of one and a half million people was happening to Americans, would they accept it?" said Abu Wael. WELL, yes. in fact, I think some would. its a brilliant form of genocide, STARVATION. they could even give nutrient and vitamin deficient, geneticly modified food to americans, for DECADES, SLOWLY STARVING US. and i aint even talkin about the FAO/WHOs global food program for US. the humans. im talkin about.....american history.

Israelis have become too obvious f#*&i»% @$$#¤/es.

It's now abundantly clear that peace is achievable in the Mid-East – every other country in the region is willing to negotiate for real peace – but that Israel doesn't want it because they want to keep on expanding and stealing other people's land and resources. Not out of need, either, but out of blatant, no-use greed. Pardon my language, but f*§#ing thieves Israelis are now. I'm ashamed of the passive support for it that's happening in my name too.

All of Gaza, please forgive me for my country all too weakly accepting Israel's atrocities towards you. I shout, but no one seems to hear: Israel, stop abusing the Palestinians. May your vengeful god wreak his vengeance on you and noone else. Or better even, simply stop this mindlessly aggressive exploitation.

I'm pushing to say as clearly and strongly as I feel what I want to say, but even that's been made illegal now. Yet the near-unilateral terrorism by the world's militarily strongest is allowed to go on.

The political facts of the world makes me sick: US/Israel with more than half the world's military might, basically claims itself under threat from people with sticks and stones, and justifies assaults on country after country on that basis.

Israel's treatment of Gaza is the shamepit of the whole West.

Shame, shame on US.

This is an excellent article detailing some of the atrocities that Israel has committed against the Palestinians for the past 40 years, resulting from the Occupation. There is enough going on in the Israel-Palestine "conflict" that you could print something every day. Please consider doing so. The world needs to know about this issue.

coco wrote: i haven't heard of animals eating carnations

Goats eat EVERYTHING! I have 2. They'll even eat wood fencing. Wonderful creatures.

elmysterio wrote: What a racist statement you made. Another bloody arrogant asshole.

Well then city boy, let's look at the picture. The gentleman appears to be wearing white linens. No livestock farmer is going to wear pale clothes, at least not without a jacket. Furthermore, the collar looks buttoned. Farmers have 2 sets of clothes; one for work, one for best. Work clothes never look like that in the photo. And most (American) farmers I know shave in the evening, almost every second day.

Now what evidence do you have that indicates it is not a wedding photo? Or do you believe everything you read?

A quick search for your posts on CD show that you never have anything substantive to say, and that you are unable to complete 3 sentences without an expletive. I suspect your powers of observations are as empty as your brain.

Now run along. Your mother is calling.

kendpotter ..
Unfortunately for you the actual events of al Nakba are very well documented (in the archives of various organisations involved, Haganah, Stern, Irgun) and researched by historians such as Morris and Pappe.
This was no spontaneous and ill prepared defence against an army of enraged Arabs. It was carried out by a very large, well trained (many by the British) and well equipped army.
The historical foundations were the Sykes/Picot agreement and the British Mandate that the British basically walked away from.

The actual operation itself was planned for a number of years before hand..
Heard of The Red House??. One of the most odious aspects is that death lists for individuals in various villages were drawn up (by taking advantage of Arab hospitality) and enacted quite efficiently.
Over 500 villages were destroyed and over 800000 survivors were forced into exile.. The origins of the refugee situation and much of the ongoing turmoil in the Middle East.

Your figures for Jewish expulsions are curious... This has never been much of a topic until now.. I suspect a move by various zionist agencies to activate this "information" now that world opinion is very definitely turning against Israeli Apartheid. From the chronology, any expulsion that occurred were a response to the crimes of al Nakba.

Lets not forget that the Zionist's dreams took form in 1897 in Vienna.
Since then, Arabs have had much reason to suspect the duplicity of the Zionists and their various interested supporters..
It is not surprising they may have drawn up plans to respond in some kind.

I know nothing of the fate of Iraqi Jews, but I can only assume that they suffered along with the Million(+) dead or the 4 million (+) refugees resulting from US/Israeli mendacity and murder..
Iran is another country where the Jewish population lives peacefully.
Name me one Arab country where an Apartheid System is enacted against Jews.

What question did I avoid?? ..
"Just Solution"... Its obvious..

The only answer to the present situation is for the Zionist/Israeli Jews to dismantle the criminal Apartheid system they have erected and allow the Palestinian Arabs the same rights that they enjoy..
This includes the clear right to return.
One person, one vote. It is inevitable.

There is NO OTHER long term solution.

Stilba February 14th, 2008 6:40 pm
al Nakba was the beginning.
The oppressive, murderous occupation is the ongoing sore.
Resistance is the result. Using whatever means it can find.
As Uri Avnery just wrote..(to paraphrase) "once the population are on the side of the resistance, the outcome is in no doubt.. the invaders have lost.."

Ben Gurion himself said quite clearly that (to paraphrase)."..the army are the people are the State of Israel.."
Every Zionist in Israel will be, is or has been a serving member of the IOF and as such supported the occupation.. As such they are enemies of the occupied and legitimate targets for any resistance action that are possible.
That is the cold logic of the situation. You minimise the disproportionate amount of death and injuries to Palestinians but weep piously and piteously about Jewish suffering... What chutzpah.

Steven Spielberg, Please help the Palestinians too.

Hey Stilba: Suicide bombers attack The Jewish Country (ultra-rarely) because the Jews massacre the Palestinians (daily) w/ Abrams Tanks, Apache Helicopter Gunships, Drones and Armored Personnel Carriers-and all Simultaneously!

The Jews murder the Palestinians while they starve them to death....for decades now, half a century of pain and agony and dead babies and woman and children...not to be impolite, but read some Noam Chomsky, some Robert Fisk...they are authors and lecturers it sounds like you have not heard of. ENJOY!

The trick lies in ceasing to be an arrogant asshole without arrogant assholes continuing to view you as an arrogant asshole specifically because you are no longer an arrogant asshole.

On Muslim cleanliness: Before praying in the moosque--and elsewhere for the more devout--muslims MUST wash--ablution is the word, and the act of ablution is often a ritual in itself. (In the photo, although the caption says it's a "man," there's NO way to tell the age OR gender of the person!!!!) In my experience and that of my brother whose travels have taken us to several muslim countries, the men folk are fastidious about shaving; in fact, the barber shop is an institution as NOT every muslim people's culture's norms are for men to grow beards!!!!

Tulkarm, West Bank. Today, 2/15/08 Brave, Arrogant Jewish Soldiers refused to let a woman in an ambulance through a checkpoint as her husband pleaded for her life, a stroke victim, she died.

Nite & Day, Woman and Children always welcome.

ELMYSTERIO

'i've never heard of it so it can't possibly be true' where did i say that. if you read my post it says exactly: 'i haven't heard of animals eating carnations.....(maybe they do.)' read the posts and comment according to what people actually say and not what you THOUGHT they said. also, fyi, i worked on a farm in the middle east for 6 years and like wtf says, farmers do not wear pristine white clothing or go around carrying carnations on their shoulders. (and no, it wasn't a farm in israel, just in case that's what you imagine)........

I have good relationships with my college students. Several are young Jewish men closely affiliated with Israel. They are "good people" in every way. But they are completely devoted to the idea that without swarms of guns, walls and these anti-Palestinian policies, they will simply be massacred en masse. And that is the wall around their analysis of the problem, and of course it makes everything worse. "Everybody wants to kill us: Amen." And you cannot tell me that they do not ENJOY this position---for what is easier? It's like people who prefer to take a medication rather than face the self-criticism of therapy and dialogue. Their own colonization of the landscape is the fulfillment of a holy dream at any real-world human cost---and that to me is the bottom of cynicism, letting people and even one's own family and children get killed rather than give one single ideological inch. "Victory is to him who endureth to the end." Really? Nice eternal bloodbath you've got going there. Shalom.

Another issue not mentioned here is the false imprisonment of THOUSANDS of Palestinians. Some are there justly, sure. But, the vast majority are there unjustly and have been held without the benefit of a fair trial, proper representation or notification of family members.

A la Guantanomo.

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/spip.php?article9

The goats are probably starving too in Gaza! Think about it!

Regarding Zionists "expelled" from Arab countries to Israel and the problem of equivalence with Palestinian refugees (among other interesting twists, Israel would have to recognize that there are Palestinian refugees with legitimate property claims), this 2003 article from Haaretz is helpful:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=329736

therzal,

You are welcome to pretend that in 1948 the Palestinians were all sweetness and light - loving neighbors prepared to live in harmony with their Jewish friends. The Jews started it all driving them from their lands. But you and I both know that is a bunch of crap. You talk about how the British trained the Jews. They also trained Arabs, but apparently that is too inconvenient to your argument to bring it up. Surely you remember Jordan's British trained and armed Arab Legion (undoubtedly the most professional troops in the war - too bad they were fighting for Transjordans best interests rather than in the best interests of their Palestinian "brothers"), or the 10,000 British trained and armed Egyptian troops that intervened?

You know the Jews must have felt just a little nervous after the end of the Mandate. After all the supreme Muslim leader of the area, The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, spent the war in Germany on the radio telling anyone who could hear the broadcast, what wonderful things the SS was doing - like imprisoning, killing, and burning Jews. Now there is a man of peace.

Knives were sharpened on both sides. The cry went out and nearly all the Arab countries committed brigades to the effort to drive the Zionist pigs into the sea. So don't try and tell me that it was some kind of one-sided "catastrophe". It was a war. The Arab countries got their asses kicked. Over the next 30 years, they kept picking fights and kept getting their asses kicked.

You make it a point that the Jews are safe in Iran - Yes a nice non-Arab, Persian country. Somehow, your message of tolerance sounds a little flat.

You think I like what the Israelis are currently doing? No. I also think that there will never be a "right of return", because Israel is not willing to commit suicide. I also think that the Palestinians have used as tools by their leaders and their Arab bretheren and that the situation could have been resolved long ago, if not for the real desire to exterminate the Jewish state.

Grow up. Deal with it. They are no just going to go away.

Suicide bombings are acts of terrorism in the semantics of commercial media. In contrast, air strikes are acts of preemption and protection. Collectives of the poor and nearly powerless don't carry out air strikes, therefore, their acts of defense and/or retaliation are acts of terrorism. Apparently, cutting off what poor people they need to survive in response to their electing politicians we don't like is not terrorism. What do they call it anyhow? A non-military approach? Negotiations without preconditions?
What's happening to the Palestinians is very much like apartheid without any moral outrage voiced in the media.