The Bush presidency will go down as the worst in the history of our country. He has brought the country to the lowest moral point. He has lied to the American people, sponsered a war for profiteering that has killed many innocent poeple, condoned torture, illegally spied on Americans, and violated our laws. His "signing statements" should be considered treason along with the lawyer who drafted them.

This President slipped through in two close elections that were tainted with fraud, possibly assisted by our intelligence agencies. The ones he is helping cover up for now with the domestic eavesdropping issue. They were breaking the laws and people would have went to jail if it had been exposed. He does not do what the American people want, but works for the bankers and corporate fascist both here and abroad. He is a disgrace.

Everyone should remember that when you stop in at the gas station to take that trip to the beach or commute to your job in another city, everytime you turn that ignition, you should imagine all these things that you would like to change become stronger with you car coming to life. Anything that uses oil should be considered terrorism. Hows that for using Bush's law against him. Him and all his SUV driving buddies.

Oh, impossible considering all of america, even the people that come here to post there thoughts on the world, are completely addicited to oil and the lifestyle it has created. I do not drive a vehicle anymore, I'm waiting for electric or air pressurized cars to come around so I can drive with "peace" of mind. I am a 21 year old who has decided to turn in on the nation and change what I can, probably in vein.

To fight a war presisdent you must know the sacrafice of war. Simple. Boycott the oil, support worthy businesses and people and stop yapping or they will kick you like the little chihuahua you are. The country is split and a new civil war must take place, one of ideas and not killing.

To sum this up. If you think the world is a place full of a lot of BS and wonder why...stop using oil. It pumps black blood into the heart of the human race.

Oil=BAD
Oil=Evil
Oil=War
Oil=death

The only way oil can be seen as good is to be used as power to find an alternative to itself. That is the war that will be fought if we are to survive the true problem of this planet, global warming.

P.S.
Stop reproducing and adopt damnit.

I have to give Dubyuh one thing: He is not a flip flopper. His legacy will not be a mediocre one. He is like the macho Dad of the 1950's who is totally lost but will drive 500 miles in circles rather than stop for directions or admit that he is LOST. What good is a strong leader when they are going in the wrong direction?

When this error is over, all of the rubber stampers and their kin must be drummed out of office. They are the little kids in the back seat who would never question Dad's authority and in fact have not yet learned how to read a map. They must be made aware that they have shamed themselves and their nation forever. They do not have the luxury of childhood innocence.

As far as I can tell, the reason why Bush is still pushing so hard for torture and has said he will veto the Bill just passed by Congress, is simple: Because he's authorized it before and if he admits it was wrong now, he will be admitting he was wrong before, and all sorts of legal ramifications will result from this because it was used before (and was illegal before).

It's not about lacking humanitarian feelings or about worrying about the power of future presidents, it's about preventing any legal action from taking place in the here and now. It's about admitting that there were precedents, precedents that could be used against Bush and his cronies.

I am wondering why Bush is pushing so hard to give the next president so much power? Is it possible that he anticipates that the elderly McCain and an ultra-right vice president will win in November? Does Karl Rove have one final trick up his sleeve? Or does Bush have some reason to be confident that even a Democratic president will not undo the autocratic system he has created?

The best article I have read on torture vs interrogation is now free on the web, thanks to the Atlantic Monthly freeing up its archives: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200506/budiansky

I note that, in the case of Scharff, he was interrogating people that in some cases were captured taking part in an operation that killed civilians in the tens of thousands.

While some of the "torture folks" like Gen Geoffrey Miller did it because they are DTS*, I believe the motive is the same as for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan: to incite terrorism, and as a result "wag the dog" to maintain the present administration in office. Whether it is because of DTS syndrome or malign intent, torture advocates all deserve to be called traitors to the US and to humanity.

* DTS means Dumber Than Shit. Shit is absolutely stupid, it knows nothing, is loaded with bacteria (mostly benign with a fraction causing disease), but is useful as fertilizer. Shit does not conspire to bomb many thousands of people to death, and it does not refuse to get the best intelligence.

From the article:

"But President Bush says he'll veto the bill. And here's what I don't get. Bush has less than a year left in office. His approval ratings are already abysmally low. Why is he determined to compound his problems by going down in history as the first president to openly order and justify torture? Is this really the legacy he wants to leave behind?"

Rosa, I believe the answer is fairly clear. IF they don't muddy the waters around whether waterboarding is torture, then they're more likely to be charged with war crimes. The best defense is a good offense...

A novel idea would be for the next President, who I believe will be Obama, to be continuesly pushed buy the People to bring crimes against humanity, and our Constitution, against this floundering Pres and his masters. I'm sure a little non torturing water boarding would do just right.

Way too much power for one man. They have the option of impeaching this asshole, but they refuse to use it. It's the same old boys club bullshit. This is why you americans need another 1 or 2 more parties. Not to mention voters that aren't so goddamn ignorant.
When you go to the polling booth, and your main issue is whether or not to allow a few cells in a petrie dish, to be used in the quest to find more cures for illnesses, to be the determining factor in how you vote, this just shows how dumbed down your voters are.
You can see the level of education, that a good portion of your citizens have obtained, just by the way they use the english vocabulary.
Every other person on the street, does not know the difference between was, an were. i.e. we was?
So i guess it's easy to understand, why they do not have an informed idea of what the issues are, before they cast their vote.

This country has always been above practices like torture! So why are we letting this arrogant little twit named Bush get away with it? Under his guidance, we have become little better than the Muslim barbarian's we rail against constantly. I guess it goes to show you how low a country can sink when the wrong man is guiding it!

A PR Campaign for torture. Hitler would be proud of bush. Hitler would be proud of America. After all, we have the same ideals of world domination and show a complete lack of respect for other nations. We lock people up in concentration camps (Guantanamo) and torture and murder them. We slaughter thousands of Iraqis in their own cities. We lie and manipulate our citizens. We make up laws as we go, ensuring that all the branches of our government lead straight to bush. Racism is out of control. Students are shot at school continually. We a working hard to develop chemical and radiological weapons. We are up to our eyeballs in hate.
Yes America, WE are our own enemy and Hitler would be proud of us.

Actually an atheist for president might not be a bad idea. Some one that does not have a doctrinal background of condoning violence, in the name of religion (cults).

*abuelito February 14th, 2008 6:27 pm* has it exactly right. People wonder why there have been no more major attacks on U.S. soil. THERE IS NO NEED. Nothing could destroy us as fast as we are now destroying ourselves. Bin Laden couldn't have been more effective if he'd managed to get himself elected prez. Bush has ended up being the greatest Al Queda asset.
Never stop demanding accountability. It is readily apparent to anyone not braindead that this administration is guilty of numerous crimes against humanity. Demand accountability.

JH February 15th, 2008 1:32 am

"Hold your noses, and vote the least of evils that will be offered."

Sorry, I won't do that. I told myself I wouldn't do that anymore and went back on it in 2006 to help give the Dems control of Congress to offset Bush and look what it got me. A bunch of corrupt spineless wonders that haven't even slowed him down.

Can't speak for anyone else but if I had a choice in how I died I would prefer a single bullet shot to the head rather than a thousand cuts with a razor blade. Voting for Democrats is the same as wanting to die by a thousand cuts.

Lobo Gris

If you torture an animal, at least in Australia, you are fined heavily and can be put in jail. I'd feel sure the same thing applies in the U.S.A.

How did it get to the stage where animals have more rights than humans? Does anyone have the address of the Supreme Reincarnation Tribunal?

I want to put in a plea not to come back as a human again!

www.dangerouscreation.com

The Senate bought it and has passed its version of ex post facto liability waiver for the telecoms. A vote, we should all note, that neither Clinton, nor Obama, had the courage to cast yea or nay. And a vote for which McCain cast a yea. Thank goodness the House has stood firm on its version that doesn't grant said immunity to the telecoms. We should look upon all candidates for president with very jaundiced eyes. The remaining field is not the best we could have chosen from. The best were weeded out early by the media's pointedly ignoring, dismissing, and marginalizing their "viability." Hold your noses, and vote the least of evils that will be offered.

Hillary Clinton commendably is now opposed to waterboarding in all circumstances, according to her letter to Bush of the last few days. But she used to be for legal torture by the president before she was against it. Bill Clinton's position is more curious. Bill too used to be for legal presidential torture. On Sept. 30, 2007 on Meet the Press Bill Clinton announced he had changed his mind. No longer, Bill explained, does he think torture should be legal by the President. But Bill approved of Jack Bauer types working for the U.S. torturing prisoners on those rare occasions like in "24 Hours" when truly important information is needed, even though it would be illegal. That is, Bill Clinton's present position seems to be he retracts his former view that torture should be legal, but he favors civil disobedience by CIA or Blackwater-type operatives (i.e. torture illegally) in those cases when torture would give good results. In the same interview Bill said he would be advising Hillary on foreign policy if Hillary is elected. Here is Bill Clinton with Tim Russert on U-Tube explaining all this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvoFmvcV1ug

Or read the transcript here:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21065954/

On Hillary Clinton's former support in 2006 for legal presidential torture before renouncing it in Sept. 2007 and now:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0907/6050.html

By contrast to Clinton's history on this issue here is Obama:

"I have been consistent in my strong belief that no Administration should allow the use of torture, including so-called 'enhanced interrogation techniques' like water-boarding, head-slapping, and extreme temperatures. It's time that we had a Department of Justice that upholds the rule of law and American values, instead of finding ways to enable the President to subvert them. No more political parsing or legal loopholes. -- Barack Obama, Oct. 29, 2007

there are more important things in the news...like steroid use in Baseball.

Soon I will push to have some IGFA big game fish trophies and prizes confiscated as there is evidence that bait fish were rammed into the stomaches to up weights.

and have you heard about Britney?

oh, and that Amy Whinehouse, how bout that bag of bones?

whats a bit of torture? they can up the TV/Radio volume and DROWN out the screams.

If Bush and Cheney believed that they were going to be charged and tried for war crimes, etc., would they still want to allow waterboarding of those suspected of being enemies of the U.S.? After all, they have proven themselves more dangerous enemies of this nation than any terrorist that might be held in any prison.

canuckchuck,

there have been marches and various demonstrations, in Washington and elsewhere. They have been systematically played down by the U.S. MSM - and by Canadian media. (Welome to the club!)

The fact is, we can march until we've no feet, but there is nothing that demonstrations will accomplish, if Congress chooses to ignore us. This isn't the '60s or '70s, when there were at least some in Congress who paid attention to what was going on in the streets. There aren't enough human beings in Congress: not enough members of either house have ethics or morals.

What can you propose that would be effective?

While you're at it, why don't you ask your media hot-shots why they don't give real, honest coverage to US demontrations? (Hint: it has to do with 'making waves' - and the fact that Canada is also devolving, albeit more slowly.)

Canuckchuck is right. If we "liberal" and "progressive" Americans can admit that we too have a problem, that the disease is also in us, then perhaps this country can begin to recover.

I'm afraid it will have to hit bottom first, though, and if you think it already has, you don't have much imagination left.

mi abuelito,

just read any 'letters to the editor' column and you see the the 'stale old scare' definitely has been sold - and they are getting angrier about the people aiding and abetting terrorists if they don't support torture also.

When whoever it was planned the airplaning of the trade center, in their wildest dreams they could not have imagined the spectacular success of their plan. Just think- they have destroyed whatever there was of the u.s. we used to learn about in civics class. gone is the entire bill of rights (except for the right to bear arms). gone too due process, rights of the accused, judicial review, and now the pretense of even any last vestige of "civilization". we find yo, we jail you, we torture you, we do what we want. oh did i forget spy on you?

all of this can be justified by dingbats like scalia because we are always at grave risk. a terrorist could strike at any
moment. the real question now i guess is can they still sell this stale old scare to our fellow citizens?

The Supreme Court, fully robed, stands on the stage of a school auditorium in Peoria, Illinois. Seven of the justices are silent. Two speak.

Benito: The demonstration you have just seen showed that waterboarding is simulated drowning, with an emphasis on the word "simulated."

Clarence: I wanted to pour the water in the guy's mouth and nose, but you wouldn't let me.

Benito: You see, audience, how we fooled you through a trick of perspective. Yooper, the victim, was between us and you at all times. Sometimes Clarence and I were ten feet behind Yooper, as we both poured, sometimes twenty feet or even twenty-five feet. BUT IT LOOKED AS IF WE WERE EMPTYING OUR TWO PITCHERS DIRECTLY INTO YOOPER'S NOSE AND MOUTH.

Yooper (the volunteer victim from the audience): I still didn't like it.

Benito: Simulated drowning is dissimilar from real drowning.

Yooper: My brother was swimming in a quarry and went under three times. The lifeguards saved him with artificial respiration. But that was real drowning, wasn't it?

Someone from the audience: YOU JUST DON'T LIKE PRESIDENT BUSH!

When Bush is out of office and the US joins the World Court, trials for war crimes become a possibility. I'm not sure there is immunity in the US for anything done while in office (Ford had to pardon Nixon); and if trials are a possibility, we should put the entire Bush administration and a bunch of their cronies on trial for treason, not so much for retribution, but to send the clear message to future politicians if they break the law they will be punished.

Rome had Caligula and his court. Germany had Hitler and his NAZI murders. The ZULU has Chacka and his bloodlusting warriors. Today's United States of America has its Insane President, George W. Bush and his jingoistic psychopaths.

Very soon the world will judge these men as mad criminals, who deserve to be tried for war crimes against the human race.....But, today we must STOP them!!!!!!!!!

I agree with drjames that "waterboarding, which was used on at least three Al Qaeda suspects." is misleading.

This bit of disinformation was designed to make people think, "Oh, they just tortured three of the guys responsible for 9-11. Probably saved some lives."

There is no reason to assume that Darth Cheney and Mojo Jojo would settle for torturing only three prisoners. Torture is like sex to these guys. And they're horny.

Too bad Jeff Gannon is no longer there to help them out.

Earthian February 14th, 2008 3:04 pm

Thank you!

Congress doesn't need to pass a law again and again. And Bush is many, many years too late to veto what is already law. Since this country has not, and, it seems, will not punish members of the Bush administration; under international law, it is now the duty of other nations.

If a criminal's lawyer tells him that something is legal and it really isn't, that doesn't let the criminal off the hook when he finally stands before a judge. This may not be over for years to come.

can't seem to legalize marijuana for medical and recreational purposes in the united states, but somehow manage to legalize torture.

what are these jokers smoking?

Biglick - since when are leaders needed to stand up to the government?

Canuckchuck has it dead right -

OUR SILENCE IS COMPLICITY!!!!!

We can whine about the MSM and chicken___ dems all we want but I'd bet that if we, the people, started taking to the streets in protest of what has become of our country, someone would step forward.

It's only torture if you do it to me.

How about impeaching Scalia, for openly disavowing and trashing the Constitution's guarantee against cruel and unusual punishment? (Yes, it's possible to impeach Supreme Court justices. As I recall it's been done once or twice, in the 1800s sometime.)

canuckchuck,

Our country lacks the leadership to rise up and stop it. Those who have tried are bought off, and most are just scared of what our government will do to us if we try to change things. I think our government will soon label progressives as terrorists.

Note the point by Frank1569: it is water torture. "Waterboarding" is a euphemism folks. Thanks Frank1569.

And I might add: they fill the prisoner's lungs with water. It is controlled drowning, a near death experience, like mock executions, but with the pain and horror of drowning.

Article 6 (2) of the second US Constitution (the current one) declares that "treaties made" are the "supreme law of the land." One such treaty is the set of Geneva Conventions. Article 17 of the Third (for military prisoners of war) states that prisoners need only give name, rank, age, and serial numbers. They cannot under any circumstances whatsoever be coerced into giving information. Article 31 of the Fourth (for civilian prisoners of war) declares that no moral or physical coercion is permitted to get information from prisoners and that prisoners may not be rewarded for information nor punished for being silent. We need to treat prisoners of any kind *exactly* the way we want US citizens and our soldiers treated when they are in jail or prison by others.

Furthermore, "unambiguously repudiating waterboarding and all forms of torture" as the article concludes in not nearly enough. That is a wimp out. We need war crimes trials.

I hate to have to paint you all with the same brush, but the USA and all its citizens are now part of a vast criminal organisation.

If you dont agree with the direction your country is going...RISE UP AND STOP IT!!

WHERE ARE THE MARCHES ON THE WHITE HOUSE?

YOUR SILENCE IS COMPLICITY

People, people ... you're letting facts get in the way of a perfectly good frame. This 'w' character would never veto a bill that prohibits torture. Why, he has told us numerous times that "We don't do torture." And of course he would never lie.

No, he will veto "a blatantly partisan, grandstanding effort to prevent the government from protecting the American people from evil-doers who wish us harm, while ignoring critical legislation urgently demanded by everyday Americans, like approving government surveillance on themselves."

You can get all the details from his spokesmodel, Purina. I've written some of her best material.

I BELONG TO NEITHER PARTY, I AM A DEMOCRAT.

I remember when I first heard about us torturing suspects (not guilty people, but suspects) about three years ago. I went to Sen Susan Collin's office in Bangor, Maine. Tears dripped on the page I was asked to fill out and I was so upset that my neat handwriting became erratic. I'm sure I was labeled as "extreme" by her aides, and therefore, easy to disregard. Torture. Torture. Americans torturing other human beings. For me, a person who was tortured as a child by a Republican bigot and pedophile, it is the absolute worst from this criminal regime. I don't want Bush and Cheney tortured. But I do want them to be charged with war crimes and I want them to spend the rest of their immoral lives in a dark, dank prison. Maybe then lil' Georgie could truly come to a loving Christ and understand that what he has done in my name, in the name of America, is a grave sin. Perhaps he'll burn in the hell he believes in. That will be god's decision, I guess. The loving god they all pray to. What bullshit. Torture. Not in MY name!

#
cmdrmsLvr February 14th, 2008 12:39 pm

The next prez needs to arrest George on various charges, including the ordering of torture.

Won't work. A bunch of Viet Nam vets tried to sue McNamara after Viet Nam and were told he couldn't be taken to court for anything he did in an official capacity while in office as Sec of Defense.

That is why impeachment is so important, it's the only way Bush's lawbreaking can be addressed.

Lobo Gris

IF IT PRODUCES A "SENSATION" OF DROWNING AND SMOTHERING IT'S BECAUSE YOU ARE DROWNING AND SMOTHERING!!!!!!!!

#
Ken Mitchell February 14th, 2008 1:11 pm

WHERE IS THE DEMOCRATS' BACKBONE?

They sold it.

Lobo Gris

First, reframe immediately: it's WATER TORTURE, or DROWNING TORTURE, not "waterboarding" which to most Americans sounds like an Olympic event. The fact that our Government has chosen a method of DROWNING TORTURE that includes the use of some sort of board is not relevant.

Second, assuming the The Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007 goes into effect and some American citizens are found to be harboring thoughts that may lead to terror-related activities, according to Scalia, "it would be "absurd" to assume any clear constitutional restrictions on "so-called torture" when potential terrorist threats are at issue."

So the question is this: do the new Hallibuton Detention Centers come equipped with DROWNING TORTURE rooms or not?

The Bush administration's cold, dead hands...

Did anybody notice that yesterday John McCain, the stalwart opponent of torture, the victim of torture, the man who pleaded with Congress to extend the Army standards of interrogation (i.e., no torture) to all federal agencies, this great humanitarion--voted against a bill to extend the Army standards of interrogation (i.e., no torture) to all federal agencies. Can anybody spell W-H-O-R-E?

Paul-GA

I couldn't agree more! The major problem in this country doesn't lie in our so called "leaders", but rather the "Murican" sheeple instead. Year after year, election after election we keep getting stuck with choosing which corporate/elite representative we feel the most comfortable with. This year, we had not one but at least THREE good candidates (Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich, Mike Gravel just to name a few.) Did either one of them stand a snowball's chance in Hell? No! Why? Because people are too damned lazy to find out for themselves who stands for what. They listen to the MSM and seem to think that they are limited to the candidates the MSM continuously talks about. They listen to the MSM's critics (such as Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh) and seemingly agree without using the process of thought. They decide gee...we need a change so lets vote for someone who is either a woman, or a member of a minority, using their gender or skin color, or even an or an ex-P.O.W. as a factor of their qualifications. The democrats and republicans both represent corporate/elite Amerika,not you or I. It is that plain and simple.

Yes, I agree with you...Ron Paul was our last hope, but even folks here on CD dissed him either because he was running as a republican (I actually saw several posters accusing Dr. Paul of being a corporate puppet, which couldn't be further from the truth as his House voting record clearly shows) or happened to choose Christianity as his personal faith, even though he didn't use his religious beliefs to campaign on as Bu$h, Romney, Huckstertobe, and McCain did/do. Does a person have to be an atheist or agnostic to be acceptable? Personally, I don't care what a candidate worships or if they worship anying at all as long as they keep it to themseves. This country isn't sinking like a ship, it's the Titanic. Who, even 50 years ago(pre-Nixon), would have ever dreamed that the preznit of the United States of America could get away with torture, signing statements, lying the country into a war for the benefit crony companies, totaly disregarding legislation passed by Congress, pushing through blatently unconstitutional laws such as the Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act, Warner Defense Act, illegally spying on American citizens even after a federal judge declares it to be illegal, pardoning a convicted perjurer (Scooter Libby) immediately after conviction, giving a massive tax break to oil companies (~15 billion in royalties for drilling on public lands)and the rich (top 0.01% of income earners, if you can truly call them "earners" got the biggest break)at the expense of the middle class and poor? If the sheeple don't wake up and do so soon, they will more than likely find themselves being herded like sheep to the nearest KBR facility. However, I certainly haven't seen anything that would indicate a change in the basic behavior or thought process of the general public, have you? As of now, it would appear that the American dream is over plain and simple and has instead morphed into a nightmare! If I seem to be pissed of and negative it's ony because I am and see no reason not to be. The fate of our once great country seems dark indeed!

Cheers.

WHERE IS THE DEMOCRATS' BACKBONE?

Tuesday night on the Daily Show Jon Stewart asked William Kristol what his take was on torture. Kristol referred to Hayden's statement that we "only" waterboarded 3 terrorists in high-stakes situations. This is obviously the next right-wing talking point in regard to torture. Stewart did not challenge the assumptions behind this statement.
- Given the propensity for Bush Administration officials to lie, can we believe Hayden's comment?
- If we give Hayden the benefit of the doubt, his statement does not say that the "United States" has only tortured 3 suspects, only that the CIA has waterboarded 3 detainees. He does not mention other forms of torture such as sleep deprivation, long exposure to cold and stress positions and any other possible method that I don't even want to think about. He does not mention the tortue of long detention and isolation of people who in all probability were guilty of nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. He does not mention the possibility or probability that other branches of the US government or even private contractors may have waterboarded or otherwise tortured suspects and he does not mention all those who have been renditioned to other countries in order to be tortured.

This cannot stand. It is imperative that Bush and Cheney be impeached. This is the only way to stop this. Even if the next president makes a strong statement condemning torture that does not stop a future president from reverting to the precident set by Bush.

"Here in the U.S., Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, the leading Democratic presidential candidates, have condemned waterboarding as torture."

Maybe I have not been paying attention but I have not read that either Obama or Clinton have explicitly condemned the US's use of torture. If they have, have they said what priority they attach to bringing the perpetrators to justice?

Here's why I think this is a problem. In democracies, we have always valued our civil liberties. It is more important that all our citizens have their rights protected than to convict each and every guilty person. In other words getting a conviction through illegal means does unacceptable damage to the security and liberty of all of us.

If the criminal behaviour of the Bush white house(ordering torture), the CIA-army(torture), congress (kangaroo courts) are not repudiated explicitly and punished, The regular police, the CIA, army, whatever, will get the message that "evidence" from torture will be admitted into court.

The police are trying to get convictions. If the next US government continues on as if nothing has happened, why would the police waste resources on respecting liberties? They will get the message that they can ignore the law with impunity.

The next prez needs to arrest George on various charges, including the ordering of torture.

Why is anyone surprised.

Bush is a compassionate conservative Christian.

And of course this raises the question of
WHERE ARE most of the Christian leaders on the issues of ending the Iraq war crimes and torture? I suppose taking a moral stand on killing and stealing (as in the ten commandments) in Iraq would not be good for the cash flow of multi-millionaire TV preachers. The German Christians were almost all quiet during the Nazi regime. History repeats itself.

At the moment we face important questions on legalizing torture. It is anyone's guess what legalized torture may do to our society as a whole over time. Will Americans have a awakening of conscience or will they come to accept sadistic crimes against humanity as "normal ?" And as a legal question, if we can "legally" waterboard "enemy combatants", then why not Americans suspected of whatever charges seem important to an imperial Whitehouse ? Accepting torture under any circumstances becomes a very slippery slope to a man-made hell.

Anther thought on torture is the potential "blowback". Like the laws of physics where one form of energy becomes or creates an equal or opposite reaction, doing inhumane things can cause unpredictable results. 9/11 could be seen as the logical result of historic Middle East imperialism, both known and covert, by the west. And rather than attempt to understand the root causes of the 9/11, we chose to add fuel to the fire setting new cycles of violence in motion.

Relevant examples of reactions to torture can be see in Algeria, modern Egypt and Iraq. In Algeria, French torture did not defeat the resistance but rather intensified the will to resist. And once again, when members of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt were imprisoned and tortured by an American funded government, certain Muslim brothers morphed into Al Qaeda which became far more militant than the Brotherhood. And recently in Iraq, the occupation was immediately defined by ignorant brutality at Abu Ghraib removing any doubts as to legitimacy and intentions of America for all the world to see.

Whenever we drop to the level of our (presumed) enemies, we're no better than they are. No moral legs to stand on.

US foreign policy appears to basically be run by big business (particularly oil). What was Ron Paul's strategy for getting CEO's out of government?

But knowing how people who run for the presidency are usually lustful for power, and once in power, seek to both maintain it and expand it, can anyone really trust Clinton, McCain, even Obama, to "unambiguously repudiate waterboarding and all other forms of torture"?

And before you remind me that McCain was tortured as a captive of the Vietnamese, I think he'd gladly make an exception for Muslims and "traitors".

Our last hope, I feel, was Ron Paul; but he was ignored. Oh, well, as this country continues to sink like a leaky ship, at least we tried.

WASHINGTON (AFP) - US President George W. Bush plans to veto legislation passed by the Senate to bar the CIA from using harsh interrogation methods including waterboarding, a spokeswoman said Thursday.

JH-

Senator Barack Obama voted No on the amendment granting the telecoms retroactive immunity. He was then absent, and did not vote, when the final bill (including the immunity provisions) came up for a vote in the Senate.

Senator Hillary Clinton was absent and did not vote on both the immunity amendment, or on the final bill.

I see enormous irony in the fact that torture has now been effectively neutralized as a partisan "moral values" campaign issue: Obama, Clinton, McCain, and Huckabee all are on record opposing it. The timidity of the Democratic leadership - choosing to hold John McCain's coat, while he and Senator John Warner fronted a bipartisan effort to persuade Bush to uphold the Geneva Conventions that had ineffectual, ambiguous results - has now come full circle.

The GOP standard bearer in 2000, a born again Christian, campaigned against Al Gore on a platform of restoring morality to the Oval Office. In 2004, the Kerry campaign did not utter a single word about torture, rendition, or the Geneva Conventions even while international human rights groups uniformly condemned Bush's policies and Muslims worldwide demonstrated, and sometimes even rioted in the streets, over the Abu Ghraib scandal.

Now it's 2008. Everybody left in the Presidential race opposes torture, nullifying it as a moral values issue worthy of public discussion or debate. Little George in turn openly threatens to veto any bipartisan legislation touching upon interrogation techniques that might infringe upon the Commander in Chief's unilateral executive power to run a system of military prisons, secret interrogation centers, and military tribunals that institutionalize torture as official internal policy, an essential tool for fighting the war on terror.

All in all, it sure looks like the GOP will skate away free from all political accountability for setting up the torture regime. The Democrats were handed a huge moral values issue on a silver platter and they chose to hide behind John McCain.

If that weren't bad enough, earlier this month, the Washington Post described testimony before the Senate Intelligence Committee in which Hayden and McConnell publicly acknowledged waterboarding Khalid Shiek Muhammed, Zubayda, and Nashiri. The WaPo article included the following passage that readers easily might skip over, but which is real food for thought:

"After the hearing, [CIA Director] Hayden told reporters that the information obtained from those [three] detainees amounted to a quarter of all the human intelligence the CIA gained about the terrorist group [al Quaeda] between 2002 and 2006."

Feeling safer yet?

Bill from Saginaw

The waterboarding issue is actually a carefully planned ruse by K. Rove and other White House strategists to sidetrack the media and public from more relevant issues such as bankrupting America via military spending, illegal wars, etc. This issue is generally simplified for the politically ignorant majority as whether it is justifiable to torture a muslim suspect who is planning a catastrophic terrorist attack in order to save a multitude of innocent American lives. Bush, if he loses his quest to legitmize torture, will further strenghthen his rhetoric that the Democrats are "weak on security". If Bush wins, then he will boast that he is willing to do whatever it takes to defeat global terrorism.

Only if the public is armed with the facts, can the public understand the far reaching implications of this draconian bill. But an enlightened public is far off as long as corporate media 'dumbs down' the citizenry with its obfuscation and simplistic approach.

Wow! What a legacy for this presidency! Absolutely shameful.