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The World Sees America in the Dock
From the start, Guantanamo has been a disaster. Sympathy for the US has dissolved
Every time there is a chance for the United States to escape from the trap it has created for itself in Guantanamo Bay, it slams the door shut.
The Pentagon's decision this week to seek the death penalty for six men it accuses of the 9/11 attacks, and to try them under the hugely disputed version of military courts that it has devised, is one of the stupidest mistakes that the Bush Administration has made.
Everything about Guantanamo is an affront to the values the US says it is defending in the War on Terror. The principle of holding hundreds of people there without charge, for years; the fluid rules of the "military commissions" used for the very few who will be tried; the torture that the Administration acknowledges has been practised on these six: all these are an assault on the US Constitution.
To see the most powerful country in the world scrabbling on the edge of a nearby island, with whose leader it is not on speaking terms, for the sole purpose of evading its own laws and principles, is an embarrassment.
But the pity is that, in charging these six men, the US should have the world on its side. On September 11, 2001, it had the world's appalled, instinctive sympathy. It could have retained that by trying the suspected architects of the assault in its established courts, under principles of justice that go back to its founders.
Instead, it has put itself in an indefensible position by subjecting its captives to new courts, under unclear rules. The Guantanamo trials, already the world's slowest legal process, will implode under waves of justifiable legal challenge, and the world will regard the US, not the 9/11 suspects, as in the dock.
I spent a week in Guantanamo in April 2006, when the pre-trial hearings of the first ten to be charged began. We had seen four years of pictures of men in orange jumpsuits but this was the first chance to hear them speak. The predicament that the US had created for itself was evident from the start.
Every detail of the courtroom was military; the seals of the five services hung on the wall; the judge, or "presiding officer", was a navy captain; the prosecutor was from the Air Force; the defence team from the Army; all were in dress uniform. But in this environment of perfect control - even the metal spiral bindings were removed from notebooks, in defence against God knows what imagined threat - the legal proceedings were chaos.
Two prisoners promptly sacked their Pentagon-appointed lawyers, saying they rejected the court's legitimacy. The judge ordered the defence lawyers, who were also military, to continue; they said that they should put their client's wishes above his orders. The court adjourned while the state Bar associations ruled on whether the defence lawyers could defy a senior military officer; they began (very slowly) giving back different answers, as the 50 states are prone to do. Other lawyers leapt up from the audience to offer to defend the defence lawyers, should they be court martialled. The prisoners, on their first outing from the cells in four years, looked stunned.
These problems have been brewing since the first captives arrived in January 2002 at Guantanamo, the deep bay on Cuba's southern flank that the US claims the right to use under an historic lease. For four years, although the US shipped in more than 700 prisoners, it held no one of more significance than Osama bin Laden's driver.
The Administration lost a Supreme Court case in 2004, on behalf of those detained without charge, and had to drop its claim that the base was not US territory and was outside US law. In the 2006 Military Commissions Act, it watered down two contentious aspects of the trials that had brought fierce criticism from Britain: that suspects could not hear evidence against them, if it was deemed classified; and that evidence obtained from torture could be admitted. US diplomats developed a good line in claiming that if only other countries would take these unpleasant men, then it would shut the base down in a flash, which glossed over the lack of ways for prisoners to challenge their captivity.
But the stakes rose in September 2006, when the US flew in 14 "high-value" prisoners, including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of 9/11, seized in one of the sporadic moments of co-operation with Pakistan. It acknowledged that the 14 had been held in the CIA's "black prisons" in secret locations abroad, its first admission that these existed.
This week, when the Pentagon declared charges against six, including Khalid Mohammed, it ensured that a blow-torch of attention was directed at the unresolved failings, heightened by its vow to seek the death penalty, that old rift with European allies.
Defence lawyers have had no time to gather evidence. Defendents' rights to challenge evidence or to call witnesses are still unclear. Most troubling, the prosecution plans to get around the objection that the men have been tortured by arguing that the CIA interviews have been repeated without torture by the FBI, who used time-tested rapport-building techniques, officials said, including giving the men Starbucks coffee.
This is indefensible. From the start the US should have tried its captives in its established criminal or military courts. Those it could not charge it should have released. It would have had the world's respect, as well as sympathy. But in setting aside its own principles so easily, it has done profound damage to its standing.
Bronwen Maddox is chief foreign commentator of The Times
© Copyright 2008 Times Newspapers Ltd.
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56 Comments so far
Show AllThey are executing these 6 innocent people because this criminal administration is coming to an end (I'm doubtful they are going anywhere, however) and they want a trophy. They have no intention of giving these people a fair trial, because a truly fair trial would find them not guilty. The GUILTY ones are the ones doing the executing. None of the people in Guatanamo are guilty of 9/11.
It's true, though, that the people who committed 9/11 did it because they hate our freedoms. That's why they've given us the unPatriot Act, shredded the constitution, jailed innocent people without a fair trial, and eavesdrop on our e-mails and phone conversations.
Yes, and a single administration has been so good at squandering our image by "setting aside principles so easily" AND by increasingly demonstrating to the world we are a deadbeat government that has trouble actually using the implied taxing power to make good on our public debts. It's been a grand Twofer of shame (on us.)
And, as bad as it is, we can re-polish our world image in a single day in November. The words "President Obama" would do the global PR trick in a heartbeat.
"Everything about Guantanamo is an affront to the values the US says it is defending in the War on Terror. The principle of holding hundreds of people there without charge, for years; the fluid rules of the "military commissions" used for the very few who will be tried; the torture that the Administration acknowledges has been practiced on these six: all these are an assault on the US Constitution."
Why do writers keep talking of our values? It's clear that we respect and support these actions by not doing anything about them.
It is easy to be American and we built our republic on imperialism. Why is it supposedly so difficult for others to understand this? It has been going on since the founding of our nation, regardless of the good intentions of our founders.
Our longstanding interactions and relationships with the world community has simply become much more apparent under this administration. And if you really look at it objectively, one has to admire the effectiveness of the strategy as of late to codify our nation's values and norms--they are now widely visible for all to see and criticize or support.
One benefit to this new transparency, is just that, it's now transparent! So, we have a much clearer idea of what the nation stands for and whether we have the muster or will to make changes if really desired.
Transparent indeed... In holding these 'secret' trials the usa places itself in the position of the ancients of Rome; people who were guilty until they could prove their innocence.
There aren't words harsh enough to condemn those who have brought low the Republic of the USA. Of course, not all citizens of the usa are guilty of this crime against humanity; just as not all Germans were guilty of allowing Hitler to rise to power...
dANIEL dAVID,
The Democratic Congress has allowed all this atrocities. At this point, no matter how much PR or Obama we get, the reputation of this country is damaged beyond any fix. It has shown its true colors and will never be considered the "leader". Which is actually a great thing.
Daniel David February 13th, 2008 12:28 pm
"And, as bad as it is, we can re-polish our world image in a single day in November. The words "President Obama" would do the global PR trick in a heartbeat"
So according to what you say Germany could have wiped out all the negative views of it instantly simply by electing a new leader at the end of WWII? That all those war crime trials weren't really necessary?
That fantasy world you live in gets stranger by the day David
Lobo Gris
"And, as bad as it is, we can re-polish our world image in a single day in November. The words "President Obama" would do the global PR trick in a heartbeat."
I'd like to believe this, but I don't think so. It's going to take a lot more than some pretty speeches or PR to restore America's image. It's going to take some trials for war crimes, major reparations to the people of Iraq and Afghanistan, a withdrawal of US troops from the 150-160 countries it currently has them in (in clear violation of international law), major reductions in the obscene US military budget, elimination of the illegal arsenals of nukes and other WMDS (also in clear violation of international law), and much, much more. Americans who think that they're going to be able to just brush this off and cover up their crimes they way they did with Vietnam (which also still requires prosecution and reparations) are just fooling themselves. Americans have fallen into the habit of conveniently blaming Bush and the Republicans for it all, but to the rest of the world it wasn't the Republicans who committed these crimes, it was the all of the Americans, Democrats and Republicans, who are responsible.
Ladybug,
Do you think you could substantiate the assertion that this fiasco has been allowed by the "Democratic Congress"?
It seems to me that they haven't been a fillibuster proof majority since the start of the Bush Administration in 2001. Surely, that is no blanket exemption and sure I would have liked them to do a lot of things differently, still I think you are a little coarse in how you seem to apportion blame.
My impression is that the world was agog when the 2004 presidential election was even close much less Bush was reselected. I have had people from numerous countries say as much. They are dismayed that the American people chose this. One way to change opinion of the world is demonstrate that at least a slim plurality can avoid the obviously bad choice, by which I mean another GOP presidential candidate. It's not enough to be sure but it is a start...
Then, on the second day, the world realizes the CIA is still disapearing people, that Gitmo still exists. That even if Gitmo is symbolicly closed, its just really had its functions moved to a prison somewhere in Afghanistan that's more out of site. On the second day, the world also realizes the Iraq war is still continuing. And that the best of the Dem plans still leave 70,000 US troops in Iraq, that the US is killing more Iraqis because all we've done is switch to air strikes from 15000 feet, and that any troops 'withdrawn' are really just 'redeployed to other bases in the region'.
That's the problem with a PR move. Its quickly overwhelmed by reality. So Pres Obama gets a one-day honeymoon with the world. Then the world realizes that nothing important is changing.
Like the above poster has said, all of this, all along has been done with the blessings, support and approval of the leadership of the Dem party. Why on earth would anyone think that voting Dem is the way to change it.
But the key is that the Republicans never had a 'filibuster proof' majority either.
The Republicans on their own didn't have a filibuster proof majority to pass the Military Commissions Act that set this up. If the Dems had wanted to stop this, they had the power to stop this. That's how its obvious to anyone who looks close that this has 'been allowed by the' the Democrats in Congress.
The Dems in Congress have been 'on-board' and in full approval of all this stuff all along. They've never mounted a filibuster to stop any of it. For instance, at any time they could have filibuster the Pentagon appropriations and held that money up until an amendment was added that provided no funds for illegal prison at Gitmo and no funds for these commissions. That was well within the power of the Dems to do, because on paper the Republicans never had a filibuster proof majority either.
The Dems have always had the power to say No to this. They've always refused. When you have the power to stop something and you don't, then you are in approval of it.
Apparently it's still a lot easier to fight for your principles than to live by them.
Every party to this outrageous travesty in the entire chain of command should be prosecuted, from the "commander in chief" on down.
It's an unforgivable disgrace.
Liberty & Justice,
SJ
www.spartacusjones.com
COMarc,
I seem to remember when the GOP was in the majority they threatened the "nuclear option" on the minorities right to filibuster. Through vagaries of parlimentry procedure the GOP could have forced and won a simple majority vote would have ended the filibuster and set a precedent preventing future filbusters.
Well, Enterik, the Dems are not exactly an opposition party if you ask me. In fact, they do not oppose at all war, crimes against humanity, disregard for the Constitution, the status quo, should I keep going?
Truthseeker58:
"They are executing these 6 innocent people because this criminal administration is coming to an end (I'm doubtful they are going anywhere, however) and they want a trophy. They have no intention of giving these people a fair trial, because a truly fair trial would find them not guilty. The GUILTY ones are the ones doing the executing. None of the people in Guatanamo are guilty of 9/11.
"It's true, though, that the people who committed 9/11 did it because they hate our freedoms. That's why they've given us the unPatriot Act, shredded the constitution, jailed innocent people without a fair trial, and eavesdrop on our e-mails and phone conversations."
==========
Precisely.
Ladybug, I didn't ask you if the Democrats were an opposition party, I asked you to develop your thesis not rattle off a few more unsupported claims. I agree that the Democrats could do much more towards becoming an opposition party, I would like to see them develop a "shadow secretary" system. I know that they have very real failings but I'm not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater. If you want to hold Democrats to a higher standard in the national legislature, I suggest you participate in the primary process so that better candidates are sent to the general election. Here in Maryland, Donna Edwards beat war-supporting, Republican economic bill supporting, Teryy Sciavo meddling eight term Albert Wynn (MD-04) by a 60% to 35% margin!
Anyone that is sick of the disaster that Bush and his crowd have made of this country should stop all the crap about the Dems and get behind either Hillary or Obama and then make sure they have a veto-proof majority to get somrthing done to fix the damage. Edwards would be fine also if he can play a part.
It is ok to dream about having Greens in control eventually, but for now, we need to have the only people with any chance at all in office to give us back our country. Don`t forget the Repugs are responsible for this mess, not Hillary or any other Dems, as the Repugs had complete control for six years. Put the blame where it belongs and go with the only people that can do the job.
Enterik February 13th, 2008 2:25 pm
"I seem to remember when the GOP was in the majority they threatened the "nuclear option" on the minorities right to filibuster. Through vagaries of parlimentry procedure the GOP could have forced and won a simple majority vote would have ended the filibuster and set a precedent preventing future filbusters."
That cuts both ways. If the Republicans had eliminated the filibuster then they wouldn't be able to use it now which they do on a regular basis.
Lobo Gris
"Don`t forget the Repugs are responsible for this mess, not Hillary or any other Dems, as the Repugs had complete control for six years. Put the blame where it belongs and go with the only people that can do the job."
Who do I blame for the Senate approval today of a bill that gives the Telecom industry retroactive immunity for illegally spying on US citizens?
Kernel February 13th, 2008 4:21 pm
"It is ok to dream about having Greens in control eventually, but for now, we need to have the only people with any chance at all in office to give us back our country. Don`t forget the Repugs are responsible for this mess, not Hillary or any other Dems, as the Repugs had complete control for six years. Put the blame where it belongs and go with the only people that can do the job."
The Dems are just as responsible for the mess as the Republicans. They not only haven't blocked any Republican initiatives they haven't even tried, neither when they were in the minority nor since they have become the majority.
Lobo Gris
The U.S.'s image shouldn't be polished. The world has seen past our long standing facade, and if we want to improve our image it should be through repentence and making of amends.
Too much stuff has gone down the memory hole.
I recall that the first time I heard of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, it was when US forces entered his home and killed him. Blood was said to be everywhere. The US forces then questioned his minor children. They used that same (and only) photo of him looking drunk in a dirty t-shirt.
Next, other nations claimed to have done the job and there may have been some question as to whether he was dead. This "spin" cycle of contradictory information persisted for a few weeks and ended with the comment that they were now questioning his minor children.
A few years later, they drag his sorry, dead ass to Guantanamo and torture him. He then confesses to everything but the assasination of Lincoln.
They did the same thing to Chemical Ali and to Al Zarqawi: Reprted them dead - then revived them. They killed Saddam and his sons twice. The UK "Mirror" even headlined the killing of his sons: "Uday and Qussay Dead, Again".
Mind if I don't believe any of this?
I do not believe any of the "uncovered terrorist plots". I do not believe anything coming out of the pentagon or the White House. I truely doubt that Osama bin Ladin is still alive. He needed to undergo weekly kidney dialasis and I do not think people in that bad shape last seven years or so. I am not a medical expert, so maybe someone with the background could let us know. Osama bin Ladin has "died" so often in news reports, he is the king of the resurected. Personally, I think he is enjoying his virgins in Muslim heaven - or what.
We live in a propaganda matrix. There is no truth to be found in the MSM.
Please try to keep in mind it's not just gitmo. "hundreds of people held without charges"? our gulag of secret prisons and others not even secret, is holding about 30,000 innocent people- people that is never charged with anything, never tried, never convicted. Gitmo is the only part of the gulag that sticks its ugly head above water for the world to see. nobody can know anything about the other prisons, or who's there. Just don't forget they are still in their wretched secret cells, still getting tortured. we may never know who they are.
The standing the US had was always undeserved. The way things are now shows the US in a truer light.
iduckles:
Only the republicans are responsible?. You must be joking. The democrats knew about this and supported it. The real fault lies with the American people who also approve of torture, renditions and whatever they think will make them safe. American's have proven to be anything but brave and now are anything but free due to their cowardice. The leaders are product of the people and are defficient because the people are defficient. America stands naked before the world and one has to turn one's eyes away; it is that ugly.
The democrats are complicit in war crimes. That is the only reason they won't impeach, they would get snared too.
an analogy---
At the time of the Easter Rebellion, '16, in Ireland, against British colonial rule, the majority of the Irish people did NOT support the uprising. Connoley argued against the uprising, stating that so many Irish lads were fighting in Europe, on the British side, that the uprising would not have public support. He was correct! He called for his followers to, "Go forth and be slaughtered." (And they were)!
The public did not rally to the rebels, and generally were not supportive of the rebellion (at that time). However, the colonial British govt. murdered the leaders of the rebellion and treated their supporters so brutally that the mood quickly shifted, with the public coming over to the side of the rebels. The IRA led a long bloody fight resulting in Irish independence.
Enterik: I find myself unaware of what is happening in congressional primaries. Can you tell me more?
Congressional primaries, according to what I just read, attract 10-15% of voters. Therefore, any concerted group would need only 15% of the voters to transform the congress. Is anybody doing this?
Good article but a few points of correction. The bush administration has made no mistakes; they have made many carefully calculated decisions involving their creation of this phony war on "Terror". They used exactly the same metaphors the Republican Party used in the 1950's, in communist witch-hunts. The major difference is back then they mostly just destroyed the lives of American citizens, now the bush administration is destroying other countries. But it is the same type of phony war. Whether the bush administration was involved in the planning of 9/11 we will obviously never know; however we do know that before and after 9/11 they planned to privatize the military and award hundreds of billions of dollars in no-bid contract to republican contractors, bushes brothers, Cheney's friends and family, major party donors. We know that 16 of the 19 claimed hijackers were from Saudi Arabia; we know that the bush family are war profiteers and have been involved in arming both sides in military actions since WWII.
Granted bush plays the role of the stupid idiot extremely well, he must watch old tapes of Hogan's Heroes and model his actions after the Nazi Sergeant Schultz; but he is really a cunning calculating evil war criminal that needs to be stopped. He will go down in history as the biggest butcher of innocent people in the 21st century; that is unless another republican usurps power in the same manner.
It is questionable how much rapport they will build with "time-tested rapport-building techniques … including giving the men Starbucks coffee". Let's not forget Starbucks was a target of an Arab boycott for its links to Israel through Howard Schultz, said to be an active Zionist. Either these guys can't get anything right culturally or they are always looking for a way to get another dig in. See Robert Fisk's story on the boycott.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0614-04.htm
I no longer understand what the USA is defending...if the USA is now just another tinpot torturing authoritarian government, is it really worth defending?
they make Saddam look wholsome by comparision
"But the pity is that, in charging these six men, the US should have the world on its side..."
That's the point - the neonuts still controlling our government DO NOT WANT the world on the side of the United States. Only those who are "with us," who agree that We're Number One and the most God-blessed, and who permit certain corporations to act without regulation or supervision - them there would be our eternal friends.
The rest are put into the category of "Future Enemies" to be warred upon whenever it appears a period of peace may be breaking out unexpectedly...
It's very simple:
If any of the so called candidates really wanted to regain Americas so called moral athority they would simply repudiate the crimes of the Bush regiem simply by starting impeachment hearings,there is absolutly no doubt that the Bushies and their neocon friends have commited well proven crimes ,but none of the Democrats have used their influence as pretenders to be leaders to propose such a move ---------
so who could you trust them,they are all hot air.
It will take a heck of a lot more than a "President Obama" to change the world's view of America. Much, much more.
The "trial" of individuals who "confessed" under torture and then reiterated their confessions under the threat of more torture is reminiscent of the Spanish Inquisition. This disgusting, vile country with its depraved, degenerate president doesn't need any "image building." It needs to be destroyed.
Re:Freedom Loving American
You're right on target. Bush isn't making mistakes, instead everything is going according to plan. This administration knew well in advance that thier mission in the White House would be to obfuscate, divert public funds to a select group of corporate pals, cling to power by any means and avoid as much contact with the public as possible.
The author says that "The Pentagon's decision this week to seek the death penalty for six men it accuses of the 9/11 attacks... is one of the stupidest mistakes that the Bush Administration has made." Maddox goes on to clarify this statement by citing that the existence of Guantanamo, the acknowledged use of torture and the military tribunals are all "an assault on the US Constitution." thereby the public will presumably be outraged by this event.
Some will be outraged, but the majority of Americans have no idea what the actual Constitution is or how it affects their daily lives. The majority of Americans also view the detainees as guilty and therefore view the government as procrastinators that are dragging their ass instead of immediately executing the whole bunch. Bush is carefully executing his rhetoric to appeal to this same majority. The ranks of the enlightened minority are not exactly swelling at this particular point in time. The MSM in the meantime will also do its part to portray Bush as a troubled and patient man who is bending to the wishes of the average American. The brilliance of Karl Rove was his basic understanding of the ignorance of the majority and he subsequently exploited it to the fullest. Does anyone here really beleive that more people tune into Common Dreams than Rush Limbaugh? We're a vanishing breed at best!!!!
The day the Bush gang decided to blow up the 3 towers and start a genocide of Muslims was the day the USA died. Just like all obnoxious regimes they take many years to recover if at all. Spain and the murdering and torture of innocents, Germany and their murder and torture, Russia and they all suffered a long slow lingering death.
The USA will continue on it's downward spiral because the people are for the most part religious nut cases with a hatred of foreigners. That is why the immigration card is always played, and it all comes from living in a dog eat dog society, it's kill or be killed. It's very good for the few who hold the strings of power because they know only too well their message will be broadcast by the media and the clowns in the pulpit.
It's just as if American society is hypnotised, coming from Europe as I did a few years ago it sticks out like a sore thumb.
Why did the general public swallow the 9/11 story when it was obvious from the day after what had happened, it was so plain that it was an inside job because the planning was novice, not even amateur, the only people who were actually deceived were the masses, those brainless types who listen to Limbaugh.
Moonbeam,
When I worked in the ME in the late 70s early 80s all clothing was inspected for Marks and Spencer in particular.
For the last 7 years the Bush Administration has circumvented the law, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and everything else established in this country. Why is the man even President of our country?????? It should be more than clear to everyone involved that he is not suited to the job. When he swore on the bible to defend the Constitution and etc that was just one more of the never ending pack of lies that has come of of this man's mouth. It's obvious he has no use for this country, our laws or even the people in it. But, this sad tale never seems to end.
When I said that the words "President Obama" would do the "PR trick", I did not mean that the world is dumb enough to accept form over substance. You see, I believe Obama is made of "substance", and his present "form" is merely the means of getting elected. And, that IF we get him, he most likely will have also swept in a Dem majority in Congress on his coattails, which would enable an "about-face" in American policy on dozens of fronts
I also believe his election would signal the world that American CITIZENS are still better and brighter than the Bush era of errors. I also believe the election of John McCain would signal the exact opposite. We need an extreme makeover and I believe Obama can bring it,
but ONLY if we allow him to be elected.
David,
You are not helping Obama by suggesting to us that we are not allowing Obama to be elected.
If you want to be a shallow Dem booster who makes every post a reason to tell us who to vote for you are only angering the folks here who don't trust the system and the Dems... and for good freakin reasons.
If you want Obama to win, you would do better using your tactic on sties that like Rush.
I don't disagree with your ends, just your method. We have heard it all from you a million times now and you have become a NAG.
I think the US should disband all of it's courts, and burn all of the law books, because the Guantanamo affair has shown, that the US only uses "law" when it sees fit. If lawyers care about the situation, they would all walk out of their jobs, and protest, because the administration has ridiculed the US justice system in the eyes of the World.
As to candidates who may help matters, from a UK point of view, I only see Obama as a person who could be called a diplomat, and one who may be able to reconstruct America's image abroad.
Gee the silence is deafening,,,
I know I am a nag too David.
OK I am the nutty prediction guy and I predict that there ain't gonna be no hangin of these poor guys we tortured....
I could have gotten a date with bin Laden out of these guys and we Could have a whole new set of friends who used to want to kill us now on our side.
I think Obama knows the secret...If ya talk to them you know where they live.
then they will be nice and helpful and that is a Win/Win....
I think Obama is the only one besides Dennis and that great Old guy from Alaska who got the Pentagon Papers exposed.... I am excited about this election and I hope Obama is the revolution takin Off... It needs a right wing and a left wing to fly and even the CIA knows that!
We are Winning Folks!
Love Ya, Jim
Sombody said it at our Jam last night....
We are all on the same Planet!
The reason why the Bush Admin. broke the law, is because it knew it could. It knew the Dems would not even try to challenge it for fear of making them look unpatriotic. What is the result: every politician trying to save his/her ass at the cost of ruin. These arrogant bastards in the Bush Admin. were smart because they knew they could play the game and win. They effectively had the Dems over a barrel and in many respects, still do (we have seen Harry and Nancy capitulate enough times to prove this true). The Administration has been giving all of us the "bird" because it knew we could not legally challenge it. And Bush and his minions will walk away laughing at all of us. Obama is not going to change anything, we must. It is up to each of us to unite and take back our country. Who is with me?
I suspect Obama will make some positive changes. He has said that he will close Guantanamo and restore Habeas Corpus. Those are specifics. Maybe he's lying, but if we're going to go there then who's to say Nader isn't lying about his intentions? I hear he has some rotten investments, and hasn't treated his workers all that well.
I will not vote for Clinton, though, if she's the nominee. She will make more negative changes, in my judgement, than positive ones. I don't believe any candidate is perfectly good or perfectly evil, but I think Obama leans towards good and Clinton leans towards bad.
And yeah, if we the people don't change our ways, then who we vote for is ultimately moot.
Claudius,
Calm down man..... It's all for one and one for all... and if you want to make leaving out Obama or any reality based fact of life in America hey Man We are all on the Same Planet.... Copy?
You are not the first guy to offer to take back our country.
But please leave your contact info so We can Do Sir.
The Democratic Congress could end this war quickly simply by refusing to fund it. That would take only 41 Senate votes to sustain a filibuster against any bill to fund the war. Enough of this excuse that the Democrats have only a "razor thin" majority. It takes only a minority to end the war. The evidence is that the Democrats in Congress like the wars and actively have voted to continue them. They also have voted to support the end to habeas corpus, to wire tap Americans and to immunize the telecom companies, and on and on with this dismal recored. They have cooperated with the war crimes of the Bush Administration. Shame on them and shame on those who excuse them.
Yes it is beyond shame that Bush is badgering them to give the telecoms immunity because in court they will say they are just good citizens(Nazis) by cooperating with the laws of Bush...
So what the congress is gonna do no doubt as in the past, is officially ally themselves with all the tearing up the constitution and our future ...they will all be as they are now accomplices and co conspirators and that is why they are afraid to Impeach.
I sound cynical don't I?
UPdate:
well I'll be, the congress is standing firm so far and the Repubs walked out....
can't be cynical now.