Mannie Davis: WTF is correct. Actually most Hondas, Toyotas etc that are sold in the U.S. are
manufactured in the U.S. with Union Labor and mostly american supplied parts. Many of these
Japanese cars and trucks are more "American" than the Fords, Chyslers, and G.M. sold here.

Hugo might be doin the USA a favor.

The higher price we have to pay for oil the sooner we will begin to invest in alternatives which will create lots of jobs, less pollution and less wars over Oil.

the problem for Hugo is that he won't get credit for the up side....
After he reads this I think he will reconsider.

Also Oil can be got from other suppliers and new oil is being discovered all the time. Russia is now the biggest producer because they never believed in the Peak oil nonsense and found that oil is not caused from rotting dinosaurs but comes from deep within the earth...real deep.

On the OPEC dollar-peg, DUBAI: OPEC may abandon the dollar for pricing oil and adopt the euro but any such switch will "take time", OPEC Secretary-General Abdullah al-Badri was quoted as saying by a weekly magazine. So, it's not just Chavez. Iran is charging Japan in yen for the oil it buys. Russia will soon go 100% ruble for purchasing its hydrocarbons. This has a good collection of currency graphs and discussion of this topic. http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/3106

This is the guy that is going to convince most world players to convert from Petrodollars to Petroeuros, triggering the collapse of the US economy as we know it. I say, "good." We have a rapacious economy that is fundamentally unsustainable. If we are not going to take steps to transition ourselves, bravo to anyone who helps us along.

IMHO, freezing oil sales to the US would not hurt Caracas as much as Washington; I am sure there are other buyers for Venezuelen oil and Chavez has indicated a willingness to sell oil for considerably less than the $91/barrel that we now pay.

Chavez, is no angel, but compared to Exxon oil he is a choir boy.

If he sells below market $ he will incure the rath of the Saudis - He is in power because the right wing last guy tried to cheat on OPEC - they will drop the $ till the bankrupt him. Half the Gas pumps in the US are Chevron and almost all are small business people. Lots can go wrong here.

Maine-ah--I suggest you do some more research before posting on this topic again. The Saudis already sell below the market to preferred customers, which is just what they did for W. Chavez is already selling lots of oil and products at below market to PetroCaribe members.

bligh2--Chavea HAS made an ofer to EOM. In fact, only 2 IOCs have NOT accepted his offer--Occidental and EOM. The US does NOT supply consumer goods to ANYONE--that capacity is ALL offshored.

That thundering sound you hear in the background is US economy crashing because of our dependence on oil, Venezuelan or otherwise.

Its not our oil. Its the people of Venezuela. Good for Chavez. Exxon is just evil.

Don't just threaten, Hugo, DO IT! China will buy it up with great pleasure. But don't expect Bush not to retaliate. He may not have the troops but he's got lotsa air and sea power to let loose on Venezuela.

karlof1- "The US does NOT supply consumer goods to ANYONE–that capacity is ALL offshored."

ALL of it? I have read previously that Venezeula imports American cars (made in America, not American cars made offshore); in fact they were a big purchase item in the last months as the bolivar inflated rapiddly. And I have seen elsewhere that 1/3 of Venezuela's food IMPORTS (as opposed to food consumed) come from the U.S. (Only about 2/9's of Venezuela's food consumed.) Even in absence of these reports, it seems unlikely that the U.S. exports no domestically produced consumer goods.

But you're right- only Exxon and one other refused Venezuela's buyout offer after nationalization. Which if why they are now in court, disputing what a fair price would be.

WTF- He will indeed find other consumers for Venezuelan oil, but he'll have to ship farther and his new customers will have to build a new refinery or convert/expand an old one to handle Venezuelan oil. Which will cut into profits. Likewise, the U.S. can buy elsewhere, but will have to ship farther and may have to convert refineries. Neither side's actions in this matter will greatly affect global supply or demand; just increase the shipping costs of all parties. So as to who will be hurt worse, who can say till they try it. I have heard that Venezuelan oil is of a unique mixture, and that refining it requires special equipment, but I a no chemist.

Maine-ah- I suspect you mean "Citgo", not "Chevron", as Citgo is Venezuelan owned. I don't think Citgo has half the gas stations in the U.S., but that is only based on my own experience driving around. I could be wrong.

I support Hugo Chavez and his efforts to help the Venezuelan people. If only we our leaders cared about our welfare!

Cut the oil, I say. It may be the only way we have to decrease carbon dioxide emissions.

Paul Revere: What do you mean Chavez is "no angel"?

I think he has done remarkable work for the majority of Venezuelans and put in place programs that can only benefit the poor and working class while allowing the rich oil cartels to co-exist profitably.

He has the cajones to stand up to BUSH more than any other World Leader.

Just as warlords who kidnap children and force men to join their forces are considered legitimate players in some parts of the world, Exxon-Mobil, which causes far greater total harm to the current and future human populations, is considered legitimate in the US and among the predatory international elites. However, if the human race does survive this century, it appears extraordinarily unlikely that the legitimacy of criminal organizations like Exxon-Mobil will survive with it.

Chavez is one of few principled political leaders in this world. Standing up to such a gang of criminals with such powerful allies places him in great peril.

anyone wanna help overthrow our government?

please?

Way to go, Hugo.

@MannieDavis: Most "American" wehicles are assembled in the US, Mexico and Canada, of parts manufactured in Australia, India, South America, South Africa, Mexico and Taiwan. This is also true for "German", "Japanese" and "Korean" vehicles. Only some expensive luxury cars are assembled offshore.

The US does manufacture and export some consumer goods (e.g., guns), but the US is now largely a service-oriented nation, rather than manufacturing-oriented as it used to be. This is one of the reasons why the US dollar will continue to plummet.

That's one way to reduce America's carbon boot prints.

This is starting to sound like high stakes and bellicose negotiating tactics on the part of both parties. The longer both parties dicker over this the more money they lose both in the expense of the continuing battle and the continuing devaluation of the dollar.

Eventually that refinery made to be able to handle Venezuelan crude and facilitate oil exdploration off the Cuban coast will be completed in Cuba and cosiderably weaken the allure of the American market for Venezuelan crude.

See details at:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2733

There is way too much negative inaccurate and just plain lying propaganda about Hugo Chavez, Evo Morales, and other world leaders the U.S. can't bend to its will being disseminated not only by Bush, and the MSM, but in other publications, like Reader's Digest, who described him as one of the 10 most dangeous dictators in the world! Is it any wonder so many people have no clue about truth (albeit, if more Americans read more investigative journalism they wouldn't be so stupid when it comes to foreign affairs -- or local affairs for that matter!). Go Chavez!!

Go Hugo! If Bush and Exxon are against you, you must be doing something right. Always stay fair against their unfairness. Mr. Danger has a year to go.

Get a bullet proof vest Hugo, and watch the skies!
The King of Vacations could be lurking near.

If food, beer, wine, liquor, cigarettes, guns, and a few other items are considered consumer goods, then I'm incorrect; but, other than the wide category of "guns," none are really "industrial," although we do speak of the "beer industry," "Big Tobacco," etc. The USA still mines a lot of oil, over 5 MBD--3rd on the Planet. We could have a really fine lifestyle with just that, but no, we MUST have even more. This will not happen. Overall net exports are already in decline. The peak of crude oil + condesate was 2004. Currently, total liquids (which includes biofuels) peaked in 2006. And we are rapidly approaching peak BTUs/Energy/BOE.

To ensure your loan will be repaid, the economy must grow. Ultimately, the economy's ability to expand is based on energy. Thus, for your loan to be repaid, energy must continue to expand, which is why you see the crazy future energy demand amounts estimated/expected by EIA/IEA on their charts (please see this for lots of data and discussion, http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3064 )

Some have pointed out that the current situation amounts to a "Seldon Crisis" and/or Overshoot and a confirmation of the "Olduvai Gorge Hypothesis," http://www.dieoff.org/page224.htm The future is going to be radically different from the present, and it's going to be a very messy paradigm change.

Since oil is in many ways a "no choice" commodity, a freeze on Venezuela oil to the US, to the extent it raises Petrol, Transport and other oil based commodity prices, might not hurt Exxon has much as it hurts the US. The US will have to pay more elsewhere. Exxon will lose out on processing and resale of some oil products. But prices should go up, and we know Exxon has a healthy profit/monopoly margin. If the embargo continues, Venezuela will be forced to develop its own refining capacity or out source elsewhere. This will harm the US long term. And of course the US of I could always bomb Venezuela out of existence, or assassinate Chavez with rockets from the Skies, or another CIA backed coup. Murder is always the ready answer to the US of I world relationship problems.

Glad to hear people not talking smack about Hugo. You try running a country that is in the crosshairs of the US sometime, you know? Thanks for standing up, peoples.

Nancy,

If Chavez is trying to convince OPEC to switch to denominating transactions in petroeuros from -dollars, then he is extremely dangerous to the financial well-being of the wealthiest Americans which is predicated on the short term propping up of the failed US dollar.

In essence, Chavez can be like the grim reaper coming to carry off all the wealth that was built up on the current bubble economy. Makes him extremely dangerous.

His actual level of danger to everyone else is zero. In fact, he's probably beneficial to everyone else in the world except those that control the world.

satr9prodxns; what do you have in mind as far as overthrowing the us govt, what does that mean?

A comment on the petrodaollars v petro euro: Iraq was invaded shortly after switching oil payments from dollars to euros. When Iran started to consider switching from dollars, they got targeted. Venezula has been talking for some time of switching. Ever since Hugo brought this up there has been a target on his back. There have been MAny ATTEMPTS by the CIA to assassinate and overthrow him. Hugo is fully aware of the danger. But he has been very smart. He has focused on the leftist movement, not just himself. And he has developed many allies. Even if the U.S. manages to kill him, they cannot stop the movement in South America.

If you want to learn more about the great things that are happening in SA, Yes Magazine did a great job last year at looking at what is happening. What is happening offers Americans an insight into what we need to do to take our country back for "we the people". Happy reading!

http://www.yesmagazine.com/default.asp?ID=222

Jim Glover--your belief in abiotic oil is deep, so deep hip waders are needed to put your belief back onto the spreader from which it came. Russia's oil exports are already in decline: "Because of higher domestic consumption, Russia reported about a 2.4% decline in net oil exports, from 2005 to 2006, even though they reported higher crude oil production." Please read the Export Land Model discussion, http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3018

Well it is a soveregn nation and they should be able to decide who they sell they're products to.
You ever seen the sign in stores [We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone].
After all our CIA did try to overthrow him. The rhetoric from the adminstration is scathing. Even some of our so called "religious leaders" {Pat Robertson} has called for his death.
What would you do in his place.

C'mon Hugo, we're rootin for ya. Venezuela does not need the US refinery capacity for Venezuela's "sour crude". Venezuela does not need to produce oil at such a volume. Rather it is the oil addict, the US, which needs the volume. So let Hugo shut off the addict's oil supply, and we'll see who blinks.

Americans can do their civic duty to help crush the capitalist oligarchy by boycotting Exxon, Mobil, Chevron, and Texaco. If you have to buy gasoline, buy it from CITCO which is Venezuelan owned where the profits go to help the Venezuelan poor.

To go even further, we should prod Hugo to develop a program to get Venezuelans land titles. We need land titles for all, worldwide, NOW.

As for the US oligarchy and its current system of production - let it all collapse - it's rotten tot he core and everyone knows it.

Didn't Ayatollah Pat Robertson put out a fatwa on Chavez a couple years back?

The neocons won't go after Venezuela just yet. Its more isolated than Iraq, so easier for the US to take and hold later. Pretty soon it will just be Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran and Venezuela. Everyone else bone dry.

What is clear today to a much larger number of people is that the US model of "laissez-faire" capitalism that supports massive privatized concentrations of economic power such as in Exxon is fatally flawed and doomed to destruction. This is not to say that the same robber barons could not corrupt a state-owned oil company with similar results. The question is not public versus private, but justice versus corruption.

Maybe a U.S. attack of Venezuela will be the "October Surprise" people predict will happen.

This is more serious than it looks. Venezuela is not a large enough country to withstand an invasion, and I think that those are the long term goals of the USA. If Hugo Chavez did cut the oil supply I feel that things would lead down that road.

This, in my opinion is where the US wants it to lead. The corporations that control Washington will not be happy until Venezuela looks once again like Haiti or El Salvadore. All of the social gains, in health, education, water supply and fair wages will be rolled back, and the people reduced to economic slavery once again. There have been assassination and coup attempts on Hugo Chavez already. His rhetoric is not based on nothing.

Venezuela is a THREAT to the corporations in the USA. The threat is this:- People will eventually begin to ask if a poor country can look after its people, why cant a rich country like the USA do the same.

Problem with Chavez's threat: We could afford it, he couldn't. I'm no fan of royals anywhere, but the King of Spain was right.

The USA and the energy states are in a parasitical relationship. If one's cut off, so's the other.

Hugo, you made my day! Give it to those bastards!

Back in '39' Germany was rolling all over the world. It looked like no one was able to stop them. Correct, no ONE country was able to stop them. BUT, dozens of other countries united to KICK THEIR ASS. If you think that the US could have done it alone, even the tooth fairy is going to skip your house. In 2008, the US has become the Germany of 1939. Things may look good now; but hold your breath and prepare for a good ASS KICKIN'. The US is like the guy that jumped off the sky-scraper: for a while, he thought he was flying.

I totally agree with you, PETER SIROIS.

When one nation gets too big for its britches, the other nations come together and put it in its place. The US is acting like an arrogant teenager just daring the rest of the world to call its bluff. And the world WILL. The only question is when.

Perhaps Venezuela should freeze US assets in Venezuela just for the duration while the US holds Venezuelan assets frozen.

This ploy by Exxon came the day after the business pages were full of stories about high gasoline inventories in the U.S. and a predicted drop of prices at the pump of $0.50 per gallon.

And the military tribunal crap about Kalihd Sheik Mohammad and the death penalty for 9/11 came the day after Michael Ratner of the Center for Constitutional Rights pointed out on Democracy Now! that 9/11 is an unsolved crime and that the conclusions of the 9/11 Commission were completely suspect because they were based on confessions obtained through torture.

The pigs appear to be running scared.

Go Hugo!! I say buy Citgo. If he pisses George
off he has to be doing something right.

Rudyjo,

Actually, Toyotas, while largely domestically made, are all non union. I did civil engineering for Toyota and many of the Japanese parts supplier plants in Kentucky. While they were non union, many pay good wages and benefits (but only because of the UAW's wage-pressure in the car mfg. job market), but some didn't and loooked like unplesant places to work.

Give 'em,Hell,Hugo!

mirf59 February 11th, 2008 12:32 pm
ezeflyer February 11th, 2008 3:27 pm
Me too!
Chavez has big balls!

bligh 2

I know you're a bought and paid for troll but to come on this thread and advocate that Chavez pay Exxon what it wants is beyond the pale. The Rockefeller family (Exxon) under the name Cortez Petroleum stole zillions of dollars worth of Venezuelan oil for decades. Now you're advocating that the Rockefellers get paid to stop stealing another country's natural resources. Just remember what Shakespeare said: "An asshole by any other name is still an asshole."

I am from a non Western country , and would like to know : will the situation change , dramatically or otherwise , should Barack Obama become the US President . Or will it be simply business ( and rhetoric) as usual - albeit with some minor mitigations.

If they can find other large buyers for their oil, then this time around they just might do it. The U.S. will be in a world of hurt for this right away.

You would think that the administration would have talked with Exxon first about the implications. This is another indication to me of who may be running whom.

Chávez has not threatened to cut off oil before UNLESS the U.S. invades Venezuela. The Venezuelan Oil Company fully owns Citgo with about 8000 stations in the U.S. that are run by independent dealers. Venezuela has an agreement to supply the U.S. with 900,000 barrels a day, and has contracts with EXXon for about 50% of that amount. Citgo has sold off two refineries in the U.S., but is building more in Latin America, one in Cuba that was mentioned, and more in China. The Venezuelan oil is heavy grade, and sells for about $10.00 or so less than the light sweet crude of many Arab countries. Chávez and Correro of Ecuador have been agitating for oil to be priced in Euros but IRAN already sells some oil in :Euros. While OPEC rejected Chávez attempt to get the change in oil pricing, the head of OPEC said yesterday that, because of the falling dollar, the organization was considering the possiblility, but it would take about a decade to make the transition. But it must be remembered that not all petroleum contries are in OPEC. Venezuela is the only Latin American nation that belongs. Chávez is trying to shift more of the country's petroleum, and refining, to other nations, and has signed contracts with a number of LA nations to guarantee their supply of oil. His biggest hope is that China will be a major buyer, and refiner, in the future. Venezuela's biggest trading partner is the U.S., but that is also changing. Chinese goods are prevalent in Venezuela, as they are every where, and Chavez is trying to increase trade with other countries. IRAN is building a plant to manufacture automobiles in the country, and Russia is building a plant to manufacture small arms. Chávez is building his ALBA trading group that includes Cuba, Bolivia, and some smaller nations. Ecuador has not agreed to join. Venezuela is in the process of joining MERCOSUR, the South American trading group. Venezuela probably cannot do without the U.S. petroleum market now, but it is possible he can reduce the relaince on this market in years to come. There are other things, however, that he can and will do. He will deny EXXon the right to bid on future developments--the Oil Company yesterday took that step already. European analysts have pointed out that oil companies normally refrain from the steps Exxon has taken because it is hard for them to win, and all companies, including Exxon, need to have access every where they can get it. Chávez is likely to win in the end, but it is not in the interest of the American people that he cut off petroleum because if he were able to do so, his prediction that petroleu would go to $200.00 a barrel is possibly correct. Or at least there would be an increase. As satisfying as it would be to see him do so, for now, we must hope he takes action directly against Exxon in constructive ways. We can buy from Citgo stations if they can be found; they are mostly on the East Coast and some in the Midwest. 7/11 did sell Citgo oil until about a year and a half ago.