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TechnoratiWaterboarding Is Legal, White House Says
The assertion stuns critics and revives debate over the widely condemned interrogation technique.
WASHINGTON -- The White House said Wednesday that the widely condemned interrogation technique known as waterboarding is legal and that President Bush could authorize the CIA to resume using the simulated-drowning method under extraordinary circumstances.
The surprise assertion from the Bush administration reopened a debate that many in Washington had considered closed.
Two laws passed by Congress in recent years -- as well as a Supreme Court ruling on the treatment of detainees -- were widely interpreted to have banned the CIA's use of the extreme interrogation method.
But in remarks that were greeted with disbelief by some members of Congress and human rights groups, White House spokesman Tony Fratto said that waterboarding was a legal technique that could be employed again "under certain circumstances."
Fratto said the nation's top intelligence officials "didn't rule anything out" during congressional testimony Tuesday on CIA interrogation methods, and he indicated that Bush might consider reauthorizing waterboarding or other harsh techniques in extreme cases, such as when there is "belief that an attack might be imminent."
For years, White House officials denied that the U.S. had engaged in torture but always stopped short of confirming whether waterboarding had been used. The administration's latest stance -- described by Fratto during the daily White House briefing -- was denounced Wednesday by key lawmakers. "This is a black mark on the United States," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee. "The White House is trying to give themselves as much of an open field here as possible. It says to others that we are prepared to use the same kinds of tactics used by the most repressive regimes and the most heinous regimes."
The White House comments came one day after CIA Director Michael V. Hayden testified publicly for the first time that the agency had used waterboarding on Al Qaeda suspects in 2002 and 2003. He also identified three prisoners, including self-proclaimed Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who he said were the only detainees subjected to the method.
Waterboarding refers to a practice that involves strapping down a prisoner, placing a cloth over his face and dousing him with water to simulate the sensation of drowning. The technique has been traced to the Spanish Inquisition and has been the subject of war-crimes trials dating back a century.
The White House position on the issue is in some ways consistent with its long-standing efforts to expand executive power and resist attempts by Congress to rein in the president's authority.
Still, the decision to reignite the debate over waterboarding struck many in Washington as peculiar. The White House had previously argued that any discussion of CIA interrogation methods would only aid the enemy. Further, the CIA halted its use of waterboarding nearly five years ago. Calling renewed attention to the issue risks drawing fresh criticism from other countries at a time when the United States is seeking to shore up its image abroad.
The issue also has been divisive politically for Republicans. Sen. John McCain of Arizona, now the front-runner for the GOP presidential nomination, has led efforts to outlaw waterboarding and other harsh interrogation methods previously employed by the CIA.
In a recent GOP presidential debate, McCain said it was inconceivable that "anyone could believe that [waterboarding is] not torture. It's in violation of the Geneva Convention. It's in violation of existing law."
The leading Democratic contenders for the White House, Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York and Barack Obama of Illinois, have taken similar positions.
Largely because the presidential candidates are consistent on the issue, many experts consider it unlikely that the CIA would resume using the method, because agency operatives would fear prosecution under a future administration.
"On Jan. 21, 2009, there's almost certainly going to be a new president who understands that waterboarding is not only wrong but a very serious crime," said Tom Malinowski, the Washington advocacy director of Human Rights Watch.
However, Atty. Gen. Michael B. Mukasey, challenged by senators to rule on the legality of waterboarding, declined last month to say it was illegal, even though he said he would consider it torture if he were subjected to it.
Congress has passed two laws -- the Detainee Treatment Act in 2005 and the Military Commissions Act in 2006 -- that ban the use of harsh interrogation methods and require all U.S. agencies to comply with the Constitution and the Geneva Conventions in their treatment of detainees.
In addition, the Pentagon published a new Army field manual in 2006 that limits interrogation techniques and bans harsh methods, including waterboarding, hoods and mock executions. And the Supreme Court in 2006 struck down the Bush administration's system for holding and prosecuting detainees, saying it failed to provide protections under the Geneva Conventions.
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), one of the Republican sponsors of the 2006 Military Commissions Act, said in a telephone interview Wednesday that at the time the bill was passed he was assured by the Bush administration that the law would specifically prohibit waterboarding.
But Fratto appeared to contradict that, saying that the Justice Department had reviewed waterboarding and "made a determination that its use under specific circumstances and with safeguards was lawful." The CIA is not currently authorized to use waterboarding, he said, adding that "we're not going to be able to speculate on what might be the case in the future."
Fratto outlined a series of steps that would be required before waterboarding or other coercive methods would be approved. He said that the CIA director would have to make a proposal to the attorney general, who would have to review the interrogation plan to determine whether it would be legal and effective.
"At that point, the proposal would go to the president; the president would listen to the determinations of his advisors and make a decision," Fratto said.
Fratto's comments echoed statements by Hayden as well as Director of National Intelligence J. Michael McConnell in testimony before the Senate Intelligence Committee on Tuesday. In referring to special circumstances under which more aggressive methods might be authorized, administration officials may be making the case for a kind of sliding scale for detainee treatment.
Malinowski said the administration may be seeking to define a loophole in international laws banning prisoner treatment that would "shock the conscience." That standard, the administration might argue, could shift dramatically if there was reason to fear the country was in danger of imminent attack.
But even so, McCain and Graham recently signed a letter to Mukasey saying that it was "beyond dispute that waterboarding 'shocks the conscience.' " And other experts said it would be more difficult to make such interpretations of the Geneva Conventions and other standards.
Feinstein has sponsored a provision in a pending intelligence bill that would require the CIA to abide by the stricter interrogation rules in the Army field manual. The measure has already passed the House and is expected to be considered by the Senate in the coming weeks. Bush has threatened to veto the bill.
During Tuesday's testimony, Hayden said that depriving the CIA of enhanced techniques would place America in greater danger. After the hearing, a senior U.S. intelligence official argued that waterboarding should not be considered torture because the U.S. military has subjected its own personnel to the method to prepare them for the possibility of being captured.
"Tens of thousands of American Air Force and naval airmen were waterboarded as part of their survival training," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "We don't maim as part of our training. We don't mutilate. We don't sodomize. Those are things that are always bad. . . . Intellectually, there has got to be a difference between [waterboarding] and the others; otherwise we wouldn't have done it in training."
greg.miller@latimes.com
© 2008 The Los Angeles Times
96 Comments so far
Show AllWhy are we still debating this crap? The President is a criminal for allowing waterboarding and should be taken away in chains for his own crimes against our country. Any person with a half a brain can see that this is torture and it is against the law. I am so disgusted that the members of this Congress don't have enough courage, common sense, and integrity to stand up and say this is enough. Let us impeach these criminals who are committing criminal acts in our name. For God's sake, is this America, land of the free and the home of the brave? Let us kick these do nothing legislators out of office and find some real Americans who have some brains and common sense to run our country. This is truly insane.
"A TORTUROUS ALTERNATIVE"
Give our "Jack Bauers" a Medal. Then, Jail 'Em and Throw Away the Key.
Necon Republicans and the unthinking supporters they terrify into voting for them keep trying to justify their demand for broad general power to be granted to Presidents (i.e. Republican ones) to torture anyone anytime for any reason. Their "justification" is invariably the often filmed (but never happened) TV-Land standard plot device relied upon time after time in the 24 series where hero Jack Bauer supposedly has only hours left to keep a nuclear bomb/deadly virus/poisoned reservoir from happening.
In the first place, we have not needed it todate even though there have been lots of Nazis and other equally nasty, devoted, persistent enemies. Even since 9/11, the so-called 1% possibility has not required routine torture.
Second, the government as currently run is too incompetent anyway to ever find a genuine suspect in time who might have such information (unless everyone with a different skin color or religion is routinely tortured "just in case").
In the third place, the information obtained from torture is of doubtful reliability. Besides, haven't we learned by now from our recent experience in Iraq, that when Bush and his buddies start acting as if movie plots are useful to predict what will happen with real people, we get in trouble? But, most importantly, even if the fictional scenario recited actually occurs and torture actually works for once, why must the Prez be handed such broad torture power so anathema to everything we used to believe? Here is an alternative.
Give the torturer a medal, maybe a Medal of Freedom. Salute him. Then, give him a ticker tape parade straight to jail where he should spend the rest of his life so that society need not worry about a sociopath torturer like him continuing to roam around loose in a civilized society. Maybe he proved himself useful for that one time, but after all, he has revealed his own pathology. He has shown he does not really believe in the Constitution. By torturing a fellow human being, he has proven there is nothing he won't do if he feels thwarted on some other matter. Do we want him free to act on whim again?
So, let's jail him along with his boss who let things get that far, that late. That way, the torturer can continue to think of himself as a hero. He can write books from his cell. And, we can all thank him for his courage in deciding to lose his own freedom to save others.
But, there is no need to grant what the Neocons want, especially when it might be used for other less trustworthy purposes, purely political ones such as perhaps torturing journalists to find out who leaked embarrassing information. In any event, for that one theoretical, rare or never event, there is certainly no need for America to suddenly become the world's bulk delivery torturer.
[more irreverence at resistence-is-possible.blogspot.com]
It's not just the Bush gang! It's all those Americans, who are scared to loose their little Plywood houses, their slave jobs, their junkfood supply and their daily Prozac and Viagra pills!
perhaps when our own soldiers, men and women alike, are able to experience the pleasures of waterboarding will there be enough of a public outcry to denounce the bush crime syndicate. it is a sad state of affairs, indeed, to even have to consider the thought.
iowairish, there can only be generous thoughts when someone is seeking knowledge. hope the suggestion is of some use.
WATERBOARDING IS LEGAL, WHITE HOUSE SAYS
Doesn't that depend on what the definition of "is" is?
Oh, sorry, wrong administration. I'll take my tongue out of my cheek now.....
But seriously, folks....waterboarding was a technique developed during the Spanish Inquisition of the 15th century, when Catholic Spain expelled all of the Jews and Muslims in order to impose Catholicism on the entire country of Spain. We're talking King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella....you know, of Christopher Columbus fame?
Anyway, the fact that it is now and has always been known as a form of torture and that the Geneva Conventions makes that illegal (and I don't care what the Bush administration says about them) means that this country is engaging in criminal activity and that this administration must be impeached in order to send a message to future administrations that this misbehavior will not be tolerated, period. If this administration is never held accountable, it creates a dangerous precedent that means that, in essence, we are no longer a country of laws, but of men, completely contrary to the vision of the Founding Fathers.
IMPEACH NOW!!!!
The Lorax said: "The announcement that Torture is legal means that America as we knew it is gone."
bizona: Or it just means that America is being a bit more honest (though, as others have pointed out, probably just to distract from something bigger they still want to keep under wraps). The only difference I can see now is that we've told everyone we waterboard. No doubt, we do much much worse and waterboarding is the tip of the secret-American-torture iceberg. Does anyone really think this is something new?
We need to stop telling ourselves that America and Americans are somehow inherently better, more ethical, more civilized than the rest of the world. Until we can admit we are no better (and sometimes much worse), then we will never be able to look at the real America and see all of the warts. If we never choose to see the problem until it's right in front of our faces, then we'll never fix anything until it's too late.
Who cares if our entire system of checks and balances says it's torture, King George II says otherwise.
Will there still be people wondering "what happened" when the next attack happens?
http://www.ryanhartman.wordpress.com
Throwing the Geneva Conventions out the window....continued
When an elected offical has been deemed to have overreached his authority, violated his oath of office or otherwise committed offenses against the constitution then the legal and correct solution is to impeach, and, if convicted, to oust him from office.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-31,GGLG:en&defl=en&q=define:impeachment&sa=X&oi=...
When the elected representatives fail to honor the wishes of a majority of the people in proceeding with impeachment charges then the recourse is to vote them out of office at the earliest opportunity. When an entire political party is found to be lacking in moral fiber and is obviously collusary with the other major party in acceeding to the imperialistic wishes of a fascist Executive in collusion with a powerful and controlling corporate mechanism the solution is also apparent; vote for a third party, do it each and every time, persuade your friends and neighbors of the efficacy of doing so, and soon we will see a group of legislators not beholden top the monied interests and working for the benefit of all Americans.
As for outrage from other countries, it will come. They are reeling from having to deal with something thought not possible - the United States admitting to torture and condoning it as well. Once they get over this unbelievable truth the outrage will pour in. I'd never thought I'd see the day, it is so sad.
P.S. If waterboarding is NOT torture, as claimed by the President and Vice President of the U.S., how long before we see waterboarding as standard operating procedure for interrogations of domestic criminal activities? It's legal according to the highest office in the land.
Gordon Brown must be so proud to be George W. Bush lapdog. I am outraged at the silence of European presidents and prime ministers.
Sickening. Silence means agreeing. Most of us were also quiet about China repression, Iraq invasion, Afganistan occupation, illegal actions, the list a very long
Versus Bush, Putin starts to look like an angel.
Bush should be kept at Guantanamo Bay wearing this orange suit and kept in the same conditions as the actual inmates. He decided it he definitively deserves it. Because, it's not torture.....
Torture is for revenge and to feel powerful. The rest is excuses. You want to do something to relieve your anger.
There are many Republicans who do not want to lose their politically appointed positions. The announcement that the Shrubbery considers waterboarding to be legal sets up John McCain to play the white knight who restores American civilization by acknowledging the illegality of the heinous practice and pushing legislation to that effect. This would divert attention from his unfailing support for invading and occupying Iraq - for the next 100 years.
Another outrage and our congressmen just sit on there hands. Being complicit themselves they are not likely to do anything.
McCain said it was inconceivable that "anyone could believe that [waterboarding is] not torture. It's in violation of the Geneva Convention. It's in violation of existing law." Even John "100 Yrs. War" McCain captain of the RepubliNazis thinks waterboarding is torture and against the law. bush however reserves the right to overrule whatever laws are enacted because he can.
Why shouldn't he? Who is going to stop him? The Bend-over_crats have already given bush a blank check to do whatever he wants and have promised him that "impeachment is off the table"-Pelosi. They all eat off the same table, the table bush has the Dims bent over on. That table stinks.
These spineless and cowardly Bend-over_crats and their chosen leaders Obama and Clinton will go down in history for the sell-outs that they are. Just imagine if it were the other way around and it was a Bend-over_cratic president crapping all over the constitution and breaking laws. The Repugs would out in force, ranting, railing and foaming at the mouth screaming for impeachment until it happened, willing to stop the government or whatever it takes.
bush can get away with murder because we have no opposition party in this country. All we really have is one party, the Democratic-Republican party of endless wars and big business which will be lead by either one of the O'Billarys or John "100 Yrs. War" McCain. These Tweedle Dee and Dweedums will ensure that the status quo is maintained and corporate war profits are in no way endangered.
The apologist for the Bend-over_crats claim they will end the war. End the war my ass. They will keep tens of thousands of troops in Iraq to prop up the US installed puppet Iraqi government so they can continue to rape Iraq and profit. They refused to commit to bring all the troops home. That is because they have sold out to the military industrial complex just like the Repugs. Don't listen to what they say, look at their records and how they always voted to support the war and always will. People shouldn't be judged by campaign promises used to get themselves elected, they should be judged on their record. Look at how they voted on the war. Look at how Obama removed his anti-war message from his website.
The Bend-over_crats aren't worth a bucket of warm spit. Dump the Dims, go Greens.
Horst Wessel Lied in german and English translation on Wikipedia - "Horst Wessel Song"
Horst-Wessel-Lied
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Horst WesselThe Horst-Wessel-Lied ("Horst Wessel Song"), also known as Die Fahne hoch ("The flag on high", from its opening line), was the anthem of the Nazi Party from 1930 to 1945. From 1933 to 1945 it was also part of Germany's national anthem.
The lyrics of the song were composed in 1929 by Horst Wessel, a Nazi activist and local commander of the Nazi militia, the SA, in the Berlin district of Friedrichshain. Wessel was assassinated by a Communist activist in January 1930, and the propaganda apparatus of Berlin Gauleiter Dr Joseph Goebbels, made him the leading martyr of the Nazi Movement. The song became the official Song of Consecration (Weihelied) for the Nazi Party, and was extensively used at party functions as well as being sung by the SA during street parades.
When the Nazis came to power in 1933 The Horst-Wessel-Lied was recognised as a national symbol by a law issued on May 19, 1933. Nazi Germany thus had a double anthem, consisting of the first verse of the Deutschlandlied followed by the Horst Wessel-Lied. A regulation attached to a printed version of the Horst Wessel-Lied in 1934 required the right arm to be raised in a "Hitler salute" when the first and fourth verses were sung.
With the fall of the Nazi regime in 1945, the Horst-Wessel-Lied was banned, and both the lyrics and the tune remain illegal in Germany to this day except for educational and scholarly uses (under sections 86 and 86a of the Strafgesetzbuch).
Contents [hide]
1 Lyrics
2 Melody
3 Other uses
4 Parodies
5 References
6 See also
7 External links
[edit] Lyrics
The lyrics of the Horst-Wessel-Lied were published in a semi-literate version in the Berlin Nazi newspaper, Der Angriff, in September 1929, attributed to "Der Unbekannte SA-Mann" (the Unknown SA-Man), as follows:
German original English translation of a later version
Die Fahne hoch! Die Reihen fest geschlossen!
SA marschiert mit mutig-festem Schritt.
Kameraden, die Rotfront und Reaktion erschossen,
Marschieren im Geist in unseren Reihen mit.
Die Straße frei den braunen Bataillonen.
Die Straße frei dem Sturmabteilungsmann!
Es schaun aufs Hakenkreuz voll Hoffnung schon Millionen.
Der Tag für Freiheit und für Brot bricht an!
Zum letzten Mal wird nun Appell geblasen!
Zum Kampfe steh'n wir alle schon bereit!
Bald flattern Hitlerfahnen über Barrikaden.
Die Knechtschaft dauert nur noch kurze Zeit!
Die Fahne hoch! Die Reihen fest geschlossen!
SA marschiert mit ruhig-festem Schritt.
Kameraden, die Rotfront und Reaktion erschossen,
Marschieren im Geist in unseren Reihen mit. The flag high! The ranks tightly closed!
SA marches with a courageously firm pace.
Comrades whom Red Front and Reaction shot dead
March in spirit within our ranks.
The street [will be] free for the brown battalions;
The street [will be] free for the SA man!
Already millions are looking to the swastika, full of hope;
The day of freedom and bread is dawning.
Rollcall has sounded for the last time!
We are all prepared for the fight!
Soon Hitler-flags will flutter over barricades.
Our servitude will not last much longer now!
The flag high! The ranks tightly closed!
SA marches with a courageously firm pace.
Comrades whom Red Front and Reaction shot dead
March in spirit within our ranks.
Does anyone remember the words to the Horst Wessel song?
pistonbroke, I am very sorry to hear about your brother. Is this something which has been reported in a news story for which there might be an internet link? The matter might be of some relevance and help in light of the current national debate. If this is too painful or personal or private my apologies.
The U.S. Department of State formally defines "submersion of the head in water" as torture in its examination of Tunisia's poor human rights record. (Reference: U.S. Department of State (2005). "Tunisia". Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, cited in Wikipedia article "Dunking".)
McCain and Huckabee of the Republicans, and Obama of the Democrats, are opposed to America using waterboarding, i.e. violating international law. Both Hillary and Bill Clinton however (shades of Alan Dershowitz) have endorsed the idea of having torture authorized legally by Presidential decision. Hillary is hardly different from Bush on the issue: both say they are "against torture", except for "techniques" such as waterboarding "in extreme cases as needed".
It is horrible that America has fallen so low that this debate is even happening. Yet if the Democrats nominate Obama, and Obama sweeps all sectors of the country except the hard right to victory as he shows every capability of doing, America can be turned back from the brink at least on this issue. For the soul of this country, it is essential that Obama be the Democratic nominee. If Hillary is nominated the lights have gone out on the Democratic Party, in my opinion. Very subjective here, but I honestly perceive Hillary as fundamentally dishonest and Obama as fundamentally honest. In this particular case, the better angel (Obama) also, by a fortuitous coincidence, happens to be the stronger candidate in terms of electability. I hope those "superdelegates" who lean toward Hillary will look into their hearts and souls and reconsider.
My brother was waterboarded while POW in Korea, he killed himself two days after he was released.
I'm perfectly fine with torture. But there needs to be a caveat and balance:
The person who orders the torture session should also undergo the same torture for the same amount of time, and the same amount of severity.
The torturer him/herself should also undergo the same torture for the same amount of time, and the same amount of severity.
The same goes for the people in the admin, military and intelligence services who know it's taking place. And if they're not sure, or they happen to have a fuzzy memory, we waterboard them into remembering it.
The same goes for the people in the general population who believe that certain "enhanced interrogation techniques" are not torture. Conduct polling, trace their phone calls - have them undergo the "enhanced interrogation techniques" then repeat the survey questions and see if they still do not think it is torture. In the Research business, we call this a Pre-Post Experimental design.
If this is a perfectly normal procedure, perfectly legal, USUAL and/or NOT cruel, then these people should have nothing to be afraid of. It's not torture. How bad can it be?
This is not a joke... do you want a solution to torture? or do you want to keep whining about it?
This nightmare is too much for my brain and for my soul. This is not who we are, and yet it is who we are, at some level.
Hold on to your humanity.
Blessed are the peacemakers.
Remember Truth. Justice. Mercy.
Raise the vibration here, please.
There has to be light shone on this darkness.
I'm scared.
What is our common dream?
What would it take to get this right?
What would it take, to embrace all life?
to awaken to our creative power?
This is no answer. Mostly my attempt to stop the sick feeling in my heart, and stomach.
This is not who we are.
Have we been softened (or toughened) enough to swallow this?) With all we have witnessed these recent years?
(I am currently reading Robert Jenson's book on Pornography called "Getting Off" .. and I can't help but ponder the proliferation and popularity (billions of $s) of pornography. One might realize, that who we are is getting quite lost in the numbing addiction to dominance and violence and degradation... which just "has to get edgier" and edgier.)
Who are we?
What exactly IS our common dream?
I'm just askin.
I have a dream that those who torture and seek dominance and power wake up to their humanity and begin to live and act from the Heart. Maybe they wake up from a nightmare, where they are the ones being tortured, or their loved ones-- I don't care, what ever collective creative dreaming would accomplish-- I dream that we know we brothers and sisters, that we know that what we do to or for others we do to/for ourselves.
Peace be with you.
Waterboarding is not torture, because we do not torture.
Launching aggressive, preemptive war is not a war crime, because we do not commit war crimes.
Nothing is illegal or immoral for an Empire hiding behind a 'Vichy' government.
Tyranny and spying on citizens? No problem here.
Suppression of democracy? No problem here.
Detention camps? No problem here.
Tow-trucks with wire-rope nooses? No problem yet.
As Ron Suskind presciently reported of the Bush administration (un-checked by the other corporate imperial party, and apparently uncontroversial to the fourth estate):
"'That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''
Don't even whisper the term; shhhhh…. Empire.
America died today.
FISA died in the Senate today.
The Constitution and the Rule of Law also died today by way of the DoJ and Mukasey.
Read 'em and weep:
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/michael_mukasey/
It's really over. Done. Stick it with a fork.
The only avenue left is impeachment and/or revolution.
Ain't going to happen. The masses are to busy with other pursuits.
This is good news. Now they admit they're insane. See you on the street tomorrow reminding the passers-by.
And remember, the times they are a changin':
Pinochet was carefully watched by international human rights groups after finally being overthrown, and when he went to Merry England for some health check-ups do you remember what happened? He was almost extradited to Spain for crimes he had committed as President. He was eventually allowed to return to Chile but spent most of his final years under house arrest, hiding.
Because of this brazen and un-heard of torture admission, Bush Cheney and Gang will never be able to visit a great many of those nations which Will Prosecute War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity. More reason to fear a putsch?
Of course waterboarding is justified...
Christians have used waterboarding ever since the middle ages to force false confessions out of Jews so that they could be burned at the stake (to 'save' their souls) and confisgate their property.
What else should we expect from the Bush/Cheney 'dream' team? AKA Medieval Nightmare.
The White House is Illegal, the People Say.
There is no strategy here. They want to torture, they have tortured, they have compromised and renamed torture, so now they just call it legal. If the unitary executive says it's legal then it is. This is just like Bu$h the inferior saying he is a Christian. Now don't bother him with words of this Jesus guy or stuff written on GD pieces of paper like Constitution, law, or treaties.
He is the leader ~ don't make him stamp his foot!
Let`s waterboard this administration and may be we can get answer`s to questions like, Why did the 8 Federal prosecutors really get fired ? Why did they lie about WMD`s ? Is Cheney really running the White house ? and what ever else we can think of. It is legal to do right?
I guess putsch is one word for it!
Let's see
Infraguard, SR1959, detention camps, waterboarding, martial law, citizenship revocation, Etc.
The streets are looking entirely too quiet.
Once the US was the hope for the planet!
Now it is its curse!
What a shame!
I sincerely hope that all of this electioneering will not be for naught. The word "putsch" that another poster used keeps coming to mind the more time passes and the more "signing statements" are issued and the more extreme the Administration acts to undermine our democratic way of life (and the more we allow those brutes to do). We have had some heroic folks stick out their necks and advocate first the impeachment of Cheney and then of Bush and yet the House Judiciary Committee continues to sit on its hands. When will we awake to the fact that unless something is done NOW, we're likely to hit November 4 and wonder where all the polling places went, and what happened to our ballots.
@Peter Serois and NMBill
I believe what you are referring to is the practice of dunking, used during the Salem witch trials.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunking
Whatever, both are obscene.
Thanks to W. and Cheney for making it harder to justify NOT prosecuting them as soon as they're out the door. Mind you, I don't expect it to happen, but at least the Democrats will be driven to more energetic hand-wringing. Republicans will justify torture ever more hotly, except when someone does it to our guys. Then they'll turn red with outrage and splutter about how the Geneva Convention is now applicable.
What we need is an FBI agent with a conscience and vested pension who will slip off to a federal magistrate, also with a conscience, and get arrest warrants for Bush and Cheney. Of course the thing would get killed immediately, because I think US attorneys are supposed to approve federal prosecutions, and Bush/Cheney are probably protected by some sort of statutory immunity so long as they are in office. But even to have someone make a bold statement like that would get people considering the idea seriously.
If Peru can prosecute Fujimori after he WON his War on Terror (vs the Shining Path), why can't we prosecute Bush and Cheney.
I agree with Peter Serois about the photo not depicting waterboarding. Peter's description sounds more realistic.
And why does the United States engage in any form of it at all?exactly
ncycat and lino: thanks for the links and the book title. But more importantly, thank you for not being angry or judgmental of an individual who asked a question. (At least in the thoughts you expressed here - I wouldn't know what other less generous thoughts may have passed through your mind that you kindly refrained from sharing.)
To Peter Sirois February 7th, 2008 5:48 pm quote: 'I'll bet that you probably thought the BBC was full of shit.' Actually, Peter, that's not at all what I thought.
I do wonder at your over-the-top outrage at someone who simply asked for information. There is an abundance of angry energy in the world right now. Need any of us add to it when it's not called for?
Why is there any discussion or arguement about waterboarding? The discussions of whether or not it is torture, or whether it is legal or not is stupid sandbox talk.
What is cruelty? What is brutality? What is barbaric conduct? And why does the United States engage in any form of it at all? Those are the questions that should be on the table.
No, the sensation of drowning is not simulated.
Water in your nose and mouth drowns you.
The sensation is the actual sensation of drowning.
You're being tortured, too-- always by goons.
____________________________________
Morally bankrupt Slate correspondent John Dickerson today was unable correctly to point to morally bankrupt presidential candidate Mitt Romney's lowest moment in his campaign.
This was when Romney revealed himself as pro-torture in mano a mano debate with John McCain, who himself is smart about torture but dumb about war.
Bush is a goon. Romney is a goon. Anyone who is pro-torture is a goon.
Interesting how CIA Chief Michael Hayden says that waterboarding "probably is not legal."
If we had a real Congress, this is yet another time when the correct response would be to file articles of impeachment.
If you want a Congress that would act like that, vote Green!
hmm, Senate committees should waterboard witnesses like Hayden to make sure they are getting truthful testimony.
According to the law and the constitution, not just some lawyer's opinion of them, the UN and the Geneva conventions (the ones the US has actually ratified that is) are still the law of the land.
The Constitution has a section called 'the supremacy clause.' It states that any treaty signed by the President and ratified by the Senate becomes the highest law of the land, co-equal with the Constitution itself.
The UN charter is such a treaty. So are the Geneva Conventions and a treaty against torture that the US signed and ratified. Thus, all of these are the highest law of the land until the US formally withdraws from these treaties.
An opinion by a White House lawyer calling it 'quaint' does not end our obligations of such a treaty. It takes a formal act by the President and I think also the Senate to end these treaties.
Until then, it doesn't matter what some White House lawyer says or what the Justice Dept says. They can't unilaterally end these treaties.
Hey, its time we got to the bottom of those missing White House emails?. Its time we got to the bottom of the lies that started the Iraq war. Its time we learned exactly who knew about exposing CIA agent Plame anti-WMD operations. Its time we learned the truth about the 2000 and 2004 elections.
Its time to waterboard White House personel to get answers to these important questions. I say we start with Bush and work our way down the chain from there.
Hey iowairish, did you get the link that ncycat posted? You know , the one about Prescott Bush and his millionaire minions' plot to overthrow our Government circa 1933 and install a fascist dictatorship?
I'll bet that you probably thought the BBC was full of shit. Somebody is full of shit. That's for sure. And it is the Amerikkkan Korporate Kontrolled media for feeding us such a pile of lies. If Maine farmers let their horse shit pile up half as high as our Korporate media piles it, those farmers would be fined out of business.
We didn't know. The President told us we didn't torture. Or only to save lives. You don't understand what it was like. They wanted to destroy us. We were only defending ourselves.
Excuses made by 'Good Americans' in the future.
"During Tuesday's testimony, Hayden said that depriving the CIA of enhanced techniques would place America in greater danger."
More of the same twisted logic. Of course condoning and pacticing torture breeds anger and hatred and places America in greater danger. Not to mention the wildly unreliable information obtained from torture.
Waterboarding? That's so old Katrina!
To take the people's mind off the economy
promise them bread and circuses
(take their bread & murder more Muslims)
Sarcasm alert for this post.
Woo Hoo! Let's bring back all the old forms of torture as well as waterboarding!
Imagine the popularity of public crucifixions, after all that's just another form of breath control. To help pay off the national debt we could sell tickets! Finally the us gov't will be able to clear the backlog of prisoner's waiting for execution, all we need to do is tack them up to the power poles along the freeways.
Won't those evil blasphemers and liberals be surprised when the inquisition shows up in their neighbourhoods with enough firewood for a good old fashoned auto-de-fay. Ticket prices would be a bit lower as not too many people can stand the smell of burning human flesh.
Sarcasm over.
Ahhhhh! Gotta love bush and his claim that it's legal if he says it is. Of course that has been his life's experience. Has the man ever faced real consequences for any of his behaviour? Hopefully, we will not be extraditing anybody to the usa anymore. But knowing Harpy, somehow I think he'll be in favour of bringing bush's policies to canada...
OK, if there are ANY respectable journalists still working in the U.S. You MUST ask McCain if he concurs with Bush on this, since he implies he will carry on the Bush administration's present course!!
Its time for IMPEACHMENT
The UN have long been sidelined.
The Geneva Conventions have been dumped, labelled 'quaint', old fashioned and innapplicable under the conditions of the GWOT.
Domestically, waterboarding now has the sanction of the state.
Is torture legal? It is now, there are no organisations, bodies or constituencies that the US subscribes to, that can gainsay.
If libertarians long for a return to isolationism, this is the way to go.
Pardon my reversion to my street ed., but america is becoming one fucked up country. If the people of america do not rise to the occasion, and straighten out your elected officials, and reign them in, you will all have to take direct blame for what is going on, and you will lose whatever credibility you have left with the international community. It's time to clean house.
Either shit, or get of the pot!
"Let's waterboard Bush and see how he likes it!" I assume you say this because you think waterboarding is torture. So do I. The difference is that I don't want to subject anyone to it, because it is torture. That is the difference between me and Bush. And anyone who wants to harm another human being.
the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity KNOWS sodomy is part of recruit training. If that's denied, what can be believed?
Out of their own mouths...
What more do you need America??
Bush, Cheney and Co gang raping children on the White house lawn??
Jeezuz.. You get what you deserve, but what did the rest of us do to to deserve these fuckers??
Can the US now extradite prisoners from western democracies? There is no guarantee they will not be tortured. And given that Bush has made this statement, it would be hard to prove otherwise.
Cruelty has no bounds among the sick barbarians who continue run loose in our White House and our Congress.
The UK has approved the extradition of Abu Hamza al-Masri to face terror charges in the US. He has two weeks to appeal. (See BBC) What are the chances that declaring the process legal provides cover for waterboarding him?
Let's waterboard Bush and see how he likes it!
Burning witches at the stake, slavery and debtors prison were once legal too. This torture issue will pass. It might be another hundred years or so till it does. Lets all vote green this Novenber, or write in Ralph Nader and put an end to end this type of thing.
McCain has already won for the Repug ticket. No one can possibly cacth him.
Bush and Cheney are exposing this so they can cover their a**es once they leave office. They are doing what they always have done to the Congress and American voters: wave their middle fingers at us and say "try to arrest us." They have insulated themselves with the top attorneys in the country so if anyone tries to sue them, the case will take years to see the light of day, if it ever does. It is their arrogance and abrasiveness at its apex, yet again. They know nothing can or will happen to them, so boldly declare that we can torture...er waterboard suspected terrorists.
At the same time, I think 4thefuture is on to something by saying that it is a shot at McCain because they know he does not support torture, and if as POTUS he declares it torture, Bush and Co. go to jail. They certainly cannot let that happen, so sabotage McCain, Huckabee moves to the front, and Jeb slides in as V.P. or vice versa.
WTF, you've raised an important point: even the presumably progressive media such as pacifica are repeating the same formula (waterboarding="simulated drowning") when clearly it's actual drowning under controlled conditions, which may or may not proceed to its normal conclusion at the sole discretion of the torturers. proving intent ("mens rea") in your hypothetical case could be a problem, but it might be worth a shot.
along those same lines, i hear the phrase "the war in iraq" roll easily off tongues from left to rabid right, when it's clearly an occupation---shrub himself declared the "war" over from the deck of that aircraft carrier.
words matter. in the latter case, since the UN charter states that an occupied nation has the right to resist, an impartial observer of events in iraq would favor the word "resistance," with its historical hero imagery, over the more pejorative "insurgency" to describe the opposition to US forces and their dwindling number of allies.
iowairish, try kevin phillips' "american dynasty" for just about all the sickness one can handle re: the bush family. sadly, it ain't over yet.
iowairish:
Go to http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_20070723.shtml
for details on the program that exposed the plot by the richest men in America to overthrow FDR in 1933 and institute a fascist regime.
This defense of state torture is disgusting. It's consistent with the idea that the detainees are not necessarily "people".
For the intelligence official to say that doing it as a training excercise makes it acceptable is a strange twist of logic.
And Hillary had to think this over...
The photo which accompanies the article is NOT waterboarding. In waterboarding, the subject (victim) is secured to a plank, usually naked, and fully immersed in a large vessel filled with water. The torture victim is held under water just to the point of drowning. Don't worry; the perps are well-trained to recognize this critical point. Nobody ususally dies. After repeated dunkings, the victim usually voids their bladder and intestines......into the water. The next time they are dunked, they ingest water contaminated with their own urine and feces. I suugest we perform this 'non-torture' on all residents of the White House and Congress. After repeating this process several hundred times, the White House and Congress should be permitted to change their definition of "torture".
Ach! Der Fuehrer has spoken! Heil Bush!
If We the People and our alleged representatives cannot see this as the signature of this corrupt, criminal, cynical regime and impeach, remove, try and hopefully condemn the whole damned gang, then we deserve what we get, i.e., Nazi Germany redux.
mikec here's my guess at scenario:
late Oct. GWB gets assasinated, Cheney takes over, declares martial law, suspends the election, moves to the bunker, mobilises Blackwater to keep the peace since the NGs are in iraq. There will no doubt be an Iranian connection to the hit. Terran will burn.
up here we really need to get Harper out. otherwise we will be Austria to the US' Germany...
The more torture the merrier.
The more oppression the happier everyone will be.
Stalin and Hitler must feel a little bit of vindication in that they don't seem so bad. After all, we are following the same policy, if not at the same degree yet. But over the last 25 years, how many civilians have died as a result of US policy? If you consider South America and the success of the US sponsored dictators, it's not too shabby.
I'm looking forwear to more of the same. It doesn't matter, Obama or Hillary or McCain. It's all the same.
Where do you sign up for the swastikas?
And we can all be proud because the smelly hippies and peaceniks haven't been able to corrupt the US military process from carrying out their water duties.
I'm so happy I could dance... on the head of some terrorist.
Life is beautiful. http://www.wordsareimportant.com/lifeisbeautiful.htm
so it goes...
Goebbels. (1897-1945)
Warmth and humor were the first to fall.
Then feelings, one by one, escaped his head.
Honor went underground and friendship fled
Without a forwarding address.
Respect, underpressure, had resigned.
Pity, captured, rapidly confessed.
Her blood was splattered on the nearest wall –
which left more room for murder in the mind.
Six million marched to chambers of a heart
where milk of kindness, drop by drop had drained,
till only pills of cyanide remained.
And then the final end was free to start.
ncycat--
i've had the sense for years now that the administration has something of the sort planned, either a martial law-based putsch or some way of accomplishing a takeover ostensibly within the bounds of law (forcing legislation allowing unlimited terms in office, then stealing the next election, and the next, and the next...).
cheney spent the 1980's doing drills for running the country from an underground bunker in a time of "emergency." (i don't have links, but it's well-documented. atlantic monthly, among others, ran a story on it.) it's hard to imagine someone like him wasting all that valuable experience.
i think all this administration's blatant unlawful acts have been done not only to accomplish specific goals, but as a way of laying the groundwork for a putsch--by successively lowering our standards for acceptable behavior by government and breaking down our will to resist.
it seems to have worked pretty well, so far.
that said, i'm voting for obama in the hope that i'm just paranoid and in reality, everything's peachy.
I keep waiting for the 'imminent attack' phase to begin. With all the laws passed so far martial law is not far away.
time to either leave or take to the streets- A la Gandhi and Badshah Khan.
With the recession in full bloom - the conditions are so reminiscent of 1932 Germany.
Elections? HA !
Hillary Clinton was for legalizing waterboarding before she was against it.
"Clinton Backs Off Support for Torture" (9/27/07 [reported by Ben Smith on Politico])
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0907/6050.html
In 2006 both Hillary and Bill independently expressed support for legalizing waterboarding by the President (see article above). Husband Bill has never retracted this. Hillary appeared to retract in Sept 2007 in a debate in New Hampshire.
But on Oct. 10, 2007 Hillary "clarified" her newfound change to being against legal presidential waterboarding and other forms of "enhanced interrogation" by saying she wasn't sure and would have to look into it further after she was President before she could say what she would do.
"Clinton was similarly vague about how she would handle special interrogation methods used by the CIA. She said that while she does not condone torture, so much has been kept secret that she would not know unlesselected what other extreme measures interrogators are using, and therefore could not say whether she would change or continue existing policies." -- Washington Post, 10/10/07
Contrast Obama:
"I have been consistent in my strong belief that no Administration should allow the use of torture, including so-called 'enhanced interrogation techniques' like water-boarding, head-slapping, and extreme temperatures. It's time that we had a Department of Justice that upholds the rule of law and American values, instead of finding ways to enable the President to subvert them. No more political parsing or legal loopholes." -- Barack Obama, 10/29/07 [quoted on TPM Central website]
Why didn't the Democratic electorate rally around Kucinich? He's the only candidate to introduce articles of impeachment and stated that the invasion of Iraq is a WAR CRIME! Do you think Obama or Clinton will go after these criminals if either one of them win the White House? Who cares if Dennis is short and funny looking. Is it not about the issues? Just look at the voting records and who's contributing. Duped again...
What do you expect? Witch(read homegrown terrorist) hunts would not be complete without waterboarding (the punishment meted out at the Salem Witchhunt trials)!
America's version of Taliban/Wahhabi justice is now complete.
McCarthyism rides again - only with more dire consequences than just 'blacklisting'.
I guess now we can pass SR1959 (5?) - the Homegrown anti-terrorism act. Bush will use a signing statement to add waterboarding, I'm sure.
Remember, there are Halliburton/KBR camps to fill!!!!!
Folks, waterboarding authorized by Bush is absolutely legal because of one of Bush's signing statements.
As has been identified that waterboarding is not simulated drowning, rather controlled drowning, has any lawyer equated waterboarding with first-degree attempted murder? If this is correct, could charges of first-degree attempted murder be brought against Bush?
This is an ominous sign for the American people. No government official who seeks re-election can be pals with Bush. There will be a scramble for the door and the only people left in the room with Bush will be the most despicable tyrants who share his views. How will American soldiers who are captured be treated? Hopefully they will put down their weapons and make their way back home - then what will the commander in chief do with nobody left to command?
ncycat {QUOTE}: '... but I am coming to the conclusion that Bush/Cheney have no real intention of leaving office and that they are positioning themselves to declare martial law and institute the takeover that Bush's grandfather tried during Roosevelt's presidency.'
I long ago came to the conclusion that there will be no elections in 9 month's time, but for different reasons.
Forgive my ignornance, but what takeover did Grandpa Prescott try? Do you have books / on-line sources that can give me some more information on this? Many thanks.
Simulated drowning is not what the term implies. It is drowing, or more precisely "suffocation". When the cloth is put over ones' face and mouth it inhibits the oxygen needed to breath. When the water is then poured over the covered face, it suffocates the person, so their is no "simulation" here, its downright torture.
Cool, let's waterboard Bush and Cheney.
Lets not only waterboard them, but put it on HBO as a pay per view with all the income from it
going to paying off the national debt.
Bush tortured people so therefore it must be legal.
A president who states unequivocally that we don't torture and then states that torture is legal. A president who signs into law several laws which he then states he has no intention of obeying. A president who deprives "enemy combatants" (whom HE identifies) of Habeas Corpus. A president who invades nations illegally and occupies them to rob them of their national resources. A president who wiretaps and spies on the citizens of the US. A president who lies through his teeth whenever he wishes, and is as nasty and arrogant and vile as they come. Why would he do that? I am a rational human being, I think, but I am coming to the conclusion that Bush/Cheney have no real intention of leaving office and that they are positioning themselves to declare martial law and institute the takeover that Bush's grandfather tried during Roosevelt's presidency. Time will tell.
the timing may be related to this: http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/07/6917/
CIA Director Michael Hayden admitted that in December 2007 amid a public debate over the use of "waterboarding" on detainees and whether or not the technique — which simulates drowning — constituted torture. At that time, Hayden said that only a few prisoners were ever subjected to "special interrogation techniques," which can include waterboarding, and that nothing was recorded on video after 2002. That claim is now coming under additional scrutiny, in part due to a classified briefing that will be delivered to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence this Friday
Dubya, Cheney, & Co. purposely let this slip on Super Tuesday because they knew the Corporate Mass Media would be fixated on the "horse race" election results. There is also the element of "we're on our way out, so we don't need to obfuscate as much anymore." In any regards, this is another new low for an administration that has not lowered the bar, but buried it.
In his book "AT the Mind's Limit" Jean Amery wrote: "Whoever has succumbed to Torture can no longer feel at home in the World. The shame of destruction cannot be erased. Trust in the World, that already collapsed in part at the first blow, but in the end, under Torture, fully, will not be regained".
Primo Levi wrote: "The Nazis tortured as did others, because by means of Torture they wanted to obtain information for National policy. But in addition they tortured with the good conscience of depravity. They martyred their prisoners for definite purposes, which in each instance were exactly specified. Above all, they tortured because they were Torturers. They place Torture in their service. But even more fervently, they were its servants".
Jean Amery who was tortured by the Nazis, died by suicide. Primo Levi, who survived Auschwitz - Birkenau died by suicide. They could not bear to live in this world any longer.
For the rest of us in this world, it has become obvious that the United States of America in its actions now rivals the Nazis in Germany in the 1930's and Stalin in Russia in the same time period. A rogue, aggressive, murderous and bullying State. And we wonder why the rest of the world hates us!
The announcement that Torture is legal means that America as we knew it is gone. Facism is firmly seated and this coming election is/will be an absolute joke.
It won't be long before the internet will no longer be a safe place to express opinions if it isn't already. I highly suggest that an alternative method be sought (similar to the Christian fish thing) as warped as that may sound. Is there a city or town in Southeast USA that is mostly progressive?
there's more going on here than they're letting us know. one has to wonder about a diversion tactic, like say the reported severing of international communication cables in the middle east, north africa and parts of asia. or something more sinister.
Of course, "waterboarding" is a euphemism. "Water torture" is the proper term. Now that the President has declared it legal, in spite of the many laws that make it a felony, we Americans are now facing yet-another moral and political and psychological test.
In his intimate and personal memoir called Defying Hitler, Sebastian Haffner, describes the similar test that the German people failed in the early 1930s. He wrote:
[Of the boycott of Jewish businesses and mass-firing of Jewish employees . . .] "The fact that this was possible also speaks against us. Our reaction to the experience of fearing for one's life, and being totally at the mercy of events, was only to try and ignore the situation and not allow it to disturb our fun. . . . it is one of the uncanny aspects of events in Germany that the deeds have not doers and the suffering has no martyrs. Everything takes place under a kind of anesthesia. Objectively dreadful deeds produce a thin, puny emotional response. Murders are committed like schoolboy pranks. Humiliation and moral decay are accepted like minor incidents. Even death under torture only produces the response 'Bad luck.'"
(Describing April 1, 1933, p. 155, Defying Hitler, Sebastian Haffner.)
We all know how that turned out for the Germans by 1945.
It may be that the fall of the Dollar is, at least in part, due to the feeling of disgust people around the world have about the policies of the nation it represents.
There are important questions.
We already know the "response" of the Democrats. They questioned Mukasey. He admitted that if he were being "waterboarded" it would "feel like" torture. But he wouldn't admit is WAS torture. Why? Everyone in the room knew Mukasey was covering the war crime of torture by the President. Sure, the Democrats complained. They argued. Did they DO anything? No. THEY DIDN'T ARREST HIM FOR COMPLICITY IN THE WAR CRIME OF TORTURE. That means they did, essentially, nothing. And they won't. Not to him. Nor to Bush. Nor to anyone but "bad apple" scapegoats.
But there is a more important question:
The question is, how will American progressives respond to this crime in the coming days?
People around the world are aghast. They are asking the questions that Haffner predicted people would ask of the German people in the 1930s: "What's wrong with them? Don't they see what's happening to them—and what is happening in their name? Do they approve of it? What kind of people are they? What are we to think of them?"
p. 185
Indeed. What will we do? What kind of people are American progressives? We shall see . . .