The 60-Plus Population: Living History

cosmobilly pretty typical of the older generation to neglect and undercut their own children.

exactly, and more densely presumptuous - too busy knowing to learn

Yes, its an easy cop-out to blame some mysterious elites for all of our problems. Trouble is I don't see your generation fighting back for the young and vulnerable against these so-called elites. Your generation does have positions of power and decision making positions. Use it to help your children. Your generation does not seem to recognize how bad it is for mine right now.

Yes, I am familiar with history, the Federal Reserve money squeezing system etc. What I am saying is each generation it gets worse and worse and worse.

dcbeltway, can't see the forest for the trees, eh? Most of the trends/issues you cite began or evolved from policies back in the 70s, when boomers had no real influence over social policy at all. (Articles on this site have referenced those economic statistics.) And as you know, boomers ideals were well quashed during the 60s, making the older generation that did the quashing clearly responsible for those subsequent economic decisions. But if you think that amounts to a sell-out on the part of boomers, then what do you have to say about other generations that haven't even tried, or have instead elect to blame others, or to act as if an ostrich while waiting for someone else to solve the problems for them – what is that called?

(For the record, the above is a regrettable simplification of a multitude of social-economic-political factors that evolved over many decades, involving several generations.)

Some will assert that the Kennedy assassination(s) was the turning point from hope and optimism toward despair and apathy.

Fact is, in the 1950's one wage earner could provide for a family with 4 kids. That wage-earning power has been declining ever since.

It's a shame you feel so oppressed (as have many boomers and others, including myself) but no single generation is at fault. I, as some others here, would like to fault our parents too, but that wouldn't be right. That's not seeing the forest for the trees.

What is actually to blame are millennia of man-king systems; would-be world-dominating empires obsessed with wealth and power, gained upon the backs and labors thick with the blood, sweat and tears of ordinary working folk, and which then squeezes the soul and spirit of that working class until it breaks, and then repeats itself with the vitalization of a new working class until that one also breaks, and then on again.

The only perpetual winners have always been amongst the privileged power elite.

Study your history and you will know the rise and fall of nations and civilizations, and social revolutions correspond with this phenomenon of enabling, exploiting, controlling and quashing the lower and middle classes. In some instances, millions have been outright slaughtered to effect socio-political change. On the other hand, the common folk occasionally get it together and score a victory for compassionate progressive populist ideals. Either way, the phenomenon repeats.

It is a pendulum that swings in perpetuity. Till we understand and control it, it will control us. And as the human population now overshoots the point of sustainability, it is rapidly becoming an increasingly vicious problem.

I positively agree with you that the squeeze is on. But it is not a generational issue – it is an issue of understanding wealth and power (particularly money), how those are wielded in the hands of the privileged few, and how that privileged power elite lives by a different set of ideals and rules from us more common folk.

Best of luck friend.

A Report titled: Generation Broke
http://www.demos.org/pub295.cfm

From the report:
"In 2001 adults aged
25 to 34 were showing signs that the path to adulthood had become more financially perilous
than it was for the previous generation of late Baby Boomers in 1992. The major
adult costs that begin to mount between the ages of 25 and 34—housing, child care, and
health care—have all increased dramatically over the past decade. And the rising unemployment,
slow real wage growth, and skyrocketing tuition and resulting student loan debts
have combined to erode the economic security of today's young adults. Additionally, just
at this time the newly-deregulated credit industry began aggressively marketing to young
people on college campuses. Deregulation also brought higher rates and fees, making it
increasingly difficult for young Americans to get out of debt."

Generation X now 'generation debt'
People under 35 shouldering great credit burden
By Jackie Cohen, CBS MarketWatch.com
Last Update: 4:04 PM ET Oct. 26, 2004
SAN FRANCISCO (CBS.MW) -- Thanks to mushrooming college tuition and what's been
called predatory marketing by credit-card companies, young people are ruining their
credit histories before they've had a shot at building their wealth.
Credit card debt among 18- to 24-year-olds has spiked 104 percent from 1992 to 2001,
according to a new report by consumer advocacy group Demos.
Such debt has also risen 55 percent among 25- to 34-year-olds during the same period.
When accounting for all households, debt rose 38 percent.
"College tuitions have had double-digit inflation annually over this period of time, while Pell
grants cover a much smaller percentage of school costs," said Javier Silva, an analyst at
Demos. "Generation X is the first to pay its way through loans rather than grants."
Exacerbating young people's money problems is stagnant wage growth since the 1970s, at least
for entry-level jobs. These positions also tend to have less comprehensive health-care benefits,
if any -- forcing young people to either go without care or default on medical bills.
Granted, such burdens are being shouldered by people of all ages; consumer credit outstanding
hovers near all-time highs. But young people's problems are another sign of these indebted
times.
Bankruptcy filings have reached record levels in recent years, and 25- to 34-year-olds have the
second-highest filing rate after 35- to 44-year-olds. See related story.
"Medical emergencies have become one of the biggest causes of bankruptcy today, along with
job loss and divorce," added Silva.
Demos reports that about 12 out of every 1,000 people ages 25 to 34 filed for bankruptcy in
2001, a rate 19 percent higher than people at that age a decade earlier.
This finding correlates with the fact that, historically speaking, credit cards now have the highest
rate of penetration among young people. Three out of every four 18- to 24-year-olds has a credit
card.
Among these account holders, the average household spends almost one-third of its income on
paying off debt -- more than twice the percentage spent by 18- to 24-year-olds in 1992.
About 10 percent of the people in this age group consider their debt burdens to be a hardship,
meaning that they spend at least 40 percent of their income on paying off these loans.
That jumps to one in seven people ages 25 to 34 in similar financial straits.
Changes in creditor practices
Clearly, student loans and low incomes are making it harder than ever for young people to get
out of debt.
To remedy these problems, Demos calls on Pell grants and other federal programs to keep up
with tuition costs.
The advocacy group is also drafting model legislation requiring card issuers to provide a twoweek
grace period for payments coming in after the due deadline.
Such practices used to be the norm before the deregulation of the credit card industry in the
1970s and 1980s. Before these changes, issuers were capped on the amount of interest they
could charge.
Consequently, people with less than stellar credit were simply unable to obtain cards, because
issuers couldn't price their rates and products based on risk.
Today, this young demographic has become one of the most lucrative for credit card issuers and
consumer products companies alike.
The heightened likelihood of defaults that comes with this territory simply gets passed on to
other cardholders, in the way of higher interest rates and attendant fees.
"We'd like to see credit-card issuers require a co-signer for people under 21, unless they can
prove they have independent means of income," said Silva of Demos. "And we want to limit any
rate increases to future activity."
Today, when an issuer raises a cardholder's interest rate [for whatever reason], the new
percentage applies retroactively, adding to people's debt burdens.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=generation+x+and+debt

re dcbeltway 3:16pm

you are incorrect in stating "My generation will be the first generation in American history that will not live as well as the last one."

the WWII generation was raised during the depression and came home to the gi bill and full employment. my late father-in-law raised 5 kids and put 3 of them through college on a truck driver's wages; his wife never had to work outside the home, and they were able to retire comfortably and to leave a modest estate for their children to divide.

i was born in 1947 and was a renter my entire adult life until 1993, when we bought our first and only home. my wife was working when we met, earned her nursing license while employed part-time, and still takes some private-duty cases to supplement her meager SS check. our property taxes doubled last year, just before housing prices in our area started to tank, so i don't expect ever to be able to retire; except for our house (which isn't quite paid off yet), our library and a few old guitars, i doubt we'll be leaving much to our kids.

things didn't just start falling apart yesterday, and it's not the whole generation of boomers who are out to screw you today. many of us fought the power then, and some of us still do. but it looks like we'll all be bailing the same boat soon, regardless of which corporate hack wins the white house.

I do not have the above stated riches. Most Baby Boomers are not in that rich group.

Those of us who are not rich will band together and vote out anyone who would do away with Social Security. I'm sick of those who act surprised that we are here knocking on the door.
We are the largest generation (1946-1964) and will not let our old age be without Social Security.
Wake up folks.
BTW: Obama and Hillary are both Baby Boomers. Some folks are trying to put Obama in the next generation. He's not.

Boomers did have ideals cosmobilly but that was back in the 1960's. They were great ideals then and still are today but too bad the boomers are history's worse sell-outs to their own ideals. Bommers certainly enjoy their 1/2 million dollar homes, their gas sucking SUV's, and huge paychecks while my generation struggles to make ends meet, drives used cars or takes public transportation, and cannot afford to get onto the property latter. Not to mention Boomers almost never had to take out the insane amounts of school loans my generation currently does. Do tell me what boomers are doing TODAY to make things better for future generations. The list will be short.

Bush Jr. was part of your generation. He was worse then his father by the way. He made his father look good and damn that took talent. My generation will be the first generation in American history that will not live as well as the last one. Thanks Boomers.

COSMOBILLY & POET: Good posts!

(oh boy, this one's going to be all over the place)

young vs old can now be added to male vs female, white vs black, rich vs poor and fat vs thin, as ways to divide us against each other and thereby distract us from the destruction by plunder and indifference of all that we know.

we---all of us---are united by the reality of our needs: physical (air, water, food and shelter); mental (something interesting to do with our time); and spiritual (the twin needs to feel ourselves as part of something greater, and in some measure to repay the gift of life). if we hold these commonalities uppermost in our thoughts, it should help simplify our decisionmaking.

i think it was utah phillips who said "the long historical memory is the most radical force." one who has seen the same snake oil peddled in 15 different bottles might be just the person you want standing behind you in line at the marketplace of ideas.

"come, let us reason together."

Okay, so all the Baby Boomers will be put in jail if we protest an end to our Social Security. So be it. At least I'll get a cot, 3 meals a day and be with my peers.

Some of you just don't realize the power of the people. I will not go quietly into the night. I paid for my parents and grandparents to get their Social Security. I've worked my whole life. Some of you just don't get it.

Personally, I think rebelnow hit the nail on the head - too much generational generalizations. Maybe anecdotal evidence serves best.

I am a boomer, in my fifties though not yet halfway through them. In many ways I am not proud of my generation's legacy; in many ways I am. My parent's generation - the Greatest Generation- Tom Brokaw bookselling bullshit, IMHO. But they tried.

We all become wedded to a world view we likely formed in our youth. At least the boomers challenged that. My father went to Korea, after serving in WWII, without question. My generation said "Hell no, we won't go." OK, maybe in lots of cases for purely selfish reasons. But many of usopposed a senseless even though we were not likely to be drafted. That huge opposition to Viet Nam legitimized anti-war activism, feeble as it now is. My father was not a rascist, but he never challenged rascism in any way. Some of us had our heads bashed in in Mississippi to do something about rascism. Then many of us "sold out", either for greed or perhaps as a sacrifice to give our children an even better chance than we ourselves had.

Blue-hairs in Winnebagos make me want to puke; twenty and thirty somethings in pimped out SUVs, Hummers, and status cars do as well. We should all know better.

I know I'm rambling...maybe too much LDS in the sixties? Maybe too many years working for the "man"? Maybe because most of this thread is crap. Spirit and values mean more than age, certainly, but sometimes age can crystalize those in ways that youth can not. But youth can, and must, challenge age.

"Had we but world enough, and time...."

rebelnow,

Since you complain about (over)generalization, I'm happy to limit my experience to my own parents, but please explain how my folks are not indicative of the generation? What has the baby-boomer generation done in response to the changing circumstances of the world in the last 30 years?

My mother has for many years said to me: "I only want you to be happy." But what does this mean? What does happiness mean when your world is being destroyed by the very principles and values that our "elders" hold as truths. There is a discontinuity here, and it cannot be waved away as a "generalization." Whenever I hear people talk of happiness, I think immediately of the "Blue Pill." - You can believe whatever it is you wish to believe.

There is an expanding generation gap, and I would suggest that the generation gap is a reflection of the rate of change in the environment. As the environment changes, so do the people.

That is not to say that all old older people are oblivious, but very many are. Why? because they literally were born into a different world. The amount of change happening now: chemical, electromagnetic, social, and political, (and more) is utterly without precedent. So much is determined when we are very young, yet "elders" think the world is basically the same as when they were young. Well, it's not.

I am guilty. I am a sinner. I have done many things that I know will have consequences for future generations. I have to live with that. But most folks over 60 don't even feel that guilt. They think they were born with the right to exploit the world for their own behalf. I'm sorry if you think that's a generalization, but I don't think it is. There will come a time when people will have to answer for their actions, and the baby-boomers, in particular, will not be well regarded in history, such as it is.

In the end, I don't care about happiness. Happiness (in my opinion) is not the goal of life. The goal should be to make sure that the children of this planet have a chance. A chance to live and grow. But we are taking that away every day we continue along this path.

But let's wave hands about generalizations, so we can absolve ourselves of any guilt...

I remember Dinosaur sized RV's in the 1980's with a popular bumper sticker at the time that said:

"We are spending our children's inheritance."

Take Barbara Bush and Nancy Reagan, leading women from the '80's, now they must be showing signs of their age and so I would be polite, but I do not consider them - or their husbands to be my - or even "our" elders - and by elder I mean: one having authority by virtue of age and experience .

Me thinks there be too many generational generalizations.

My folks are in their late-sixties. Whenever I talk about pressing environmental problems, their response is: "As long as we're gone before the worst of it happens, that's all we care about."

So much for the wisdom of our elders. They are ineffectual and ignorant of what they have wrought. They have little understanding of the rapid changes that are happening in resource usage, energy consumption, climate change, and chemical contamination. All these outcomes of our elders' behavior preferentially affects the youngest among us, since the youngest are the most vulnerable and will presumably live the longest.

Frankly, in my opinion, the reason why elders are being cast aside is because they have no solutions or advice that is relevant in a rapidly changing - and eroding - world. My folks are still living in the 50s, their teen years. This is probably a natural human phenomenon, but right now, it is exceedingly dangerous and comes off as irresponsible and selfish.

Until I see "elders" making the sacrifices necessary for their children to survive, I will ignore their advice as irrelevant and downright dangerous to the continuity of life. When they are more concerned about clean air and water, and less concerned about filling their 40 gallon Winnebago gas tank, then I will listen. Until then, stories like this are just stupid.

If the over 60 crowd is a living history, it is a history of how to destroy the planet in the shortest possible time. Not exactly a lesson I would want to see passed on to children.

dcbeltway, get a clue, do a real study - identify real power and wealth and its influence - it is the so-called greatest generation and their parents that supported the social infrastructure and social-economic-ecological-militaristic priorities that still determine our human course. It was boomers that got shot at Kent State, boomers that brought about environmental consciousness, boomers that sought peace but were drafted to vietnam, and like then, now face the pitiful pathetic lack of humility and appreciation from the likes of you for having the powerlessness to thwart the 'man', the system, the power structure - and I don't see you doing any better now than then - probably because you clearly can't understand the real issues - so what the hell are you doing that's so different? Truth is, you're caught in the same system along with the boomers, but too narrow-minded to seek out, learn and address the greater forces at work. I'll give you a clue - there are multi-generational, centuries old human failings at work, for which the greatest generation and their parents were also victims - and you too are a victim - trying to make other innocents victims - think about it.

Both the article and gist of most the commentary is pure pap!

What of the essential stewardship, compassionate and wise eldership, and wholesome concern for the future well-being of our planet and humanity? What priorities, who's priorities, what means and for what ends, brought us to this point in the evolution of Earth and its peoples?

30 somethings lacking reverence, olders lacking accountability, and boomers caught in the middle with no real comprehension of what is really going on in their world. Cutesy stories, self-interest, naive suppositions, all vainly attempting to draw a universe from single simple insubstantial instances - what a ginormous mess of ineffectual self-absorbed stinking thinking!

Yet another boomer self-glorification article. I expect to see more of this self-indulgent nonsense from the boomers over the next few years as its thier track record. Rever the Boomers are you friggin kidding me? Bush and his neocon buddies are all boomers. Let's see the Clinton crowd was also. They put my generation, my future children, my grandchildren and my great grandchildren into severe economic hardship and debt. Not to mention wars and scandle after scandle. NO THANK YOU. NOT WORTH EMULATING.

As for my grandparents generation...I love you people you were amazing and were the Greatest Generation. You knew how to sacrifice and save. You left the next generation better off then you yourselves lived. Too bad your children screwed up.

My boss is 85 and he is the best boss in the world. He knows so much about human nature and life and humor. He is very successful, he works long hours because he enjoys it. He is like Fred Astaire at what he does. I like to bring my young son into work just so he can see what it could be like.

Grigor says--

Poet is right. It's not so great to live your life to an old age and know "your" country is a complete fraud. Since inception - one big living LIE!

*****************

Except that was most definately not what I was saying. America is no more a, "living lie" than any other country. 100 years ago Britain was what America is today, before that France, Spain, Portugal, even the Netherlands had their turn at being a world imperialist power.

By "imperialist" I mean a country that uses diplomatic, military, economic, and cultural dominastion in order to acquire the wealth of other peoples labors and the natural resources of their lands for their own economic enrichment.

My point was that most governments and businesses seek to dominate those who are either their citizens (in the case of governments) or the source of their wealth production (in the case of employees). Young people just out of adolescence or not so young people starting a family and raising children are more vulnerable to manipulation than many if not most of their elders by such "authorities".

Older people have far simpler needs and have lived long enough to have seen the same con games done often enough that they are not as impressed or swayed by "the powers that be".

Stilba:
You have every right to be pissed. The current system has nearly exhausted the planet, and it is a big question mark, what will there be in 30 or 40 years? There is another way - Green Retirement. Just click my name to learn more. It saves the planet and your retirement. The current method is based on consumption, Green Retirement, is based on conservation.

Green Retirement is one of the reasons why I haven't been posting on Common Dreams lately, I've been busy trying to complete the idea. Also, all the focus on politics, just makes me irritable. Kucinich, Edwards, Obama, Clinton, all false promises.

And the answer to the author's first line is No. We do not honor or respect our elders or the elderly. The tax rebate proposal would leave out 20 million retired Americans who earn less than $3000 in income per year. That's pretty dis-respectful.

dlnelson7: Good for you!

Ramsay

Poet is right. It's not so great to live your life to an old age and know "your" country is a complete fraud. Since inception - one big living LIE!

DownriverDem, the government would have no hesitation to kill, or arrest and imprison seniors. Blackwater would love the job. Senior Retirement Villages would consist of the prisons currently under construction holding twenty thousand people each. No one ever leaves the village except in a bag. Seniors would be labeled deranged and senile and a serious drag on the economy, nothing more than expendable pieces of old and useless flesh. They will likely be burned to provide electricity to Corporate America. Their ashes would be used as fertilizer. It's the No Senior Left Behind program. Aren't scenario's fun?

The greatest danger to having an over 60 population in the workforce is that they cannot be as easily intimnidated by their "superiors' within the heirarchy.

Face it if your kids are grown, your mortgage paid, your impulses indulged enough that you know the difference between what is a "want" and what is a "need", you are less vulnerable to the economic manipulation foisted off on those younger.

Add to this having lived enough of life to have seen the same old crap being repackaged and resold to the more gullible young, (Vietnam/Iraq, Warren/911 Comission), you are seen not as a valuable resource as much as a dangerous threat to those who are constantly changing the memory of the past in order to control the present and set the agenda for the future.

Seniors need to create oral and written histories and I don't just mean to limit it to faily geneologies (although that too is important)as much as their living memory of "what it was really like" as oppossed to what the pop culture that has managed to survive portrays history.

If more seniors did this we who are younger would learn that the twenties were not "roaring", the 50's were not all "fabulous", nor the 60's "drug-crazed" or "self indulgent" and the 80's were not "morning in America".

Jan,

With less than 10 years to go, you bet your sweet you know what I'll get my Social Security. Are you crazy? What do you think we are going to do? Just lay down and die. I'll be out in the streets protesting like all the other Baby Boomers. Wake up.

Think about it.

"Doom n Gloom, I'm sure I don't know what the hell you're talking about. Last time I heard the word "Elder" was probably when I was 12 and playing Dungeons and Dragons. Fantasy!"

Hey Stilba (big laugh) what I have described in the American Indian idea of an Elder. I used that example just to emphasize that age does not necessarily equate with wisdom. If Elders are to be utilized it is important to utilize real Elders and not just "olders" or little will change in a good direction.

DownriverDem wrote: "I hope to make it to 66 when I can collect full Social Security. Then I will 'retire' from my day job..."

You think so? You'd better not count on it. The system is not at all like a bank, where you put money for use in the future. Quite the contrary: current Social Security taxes are primarily going to current recipients, and Congress has "stolen" the entire system anyway, by putting it on-budget, rather than maintaining it like a trust or endowment.

What this means is that when the demographic bulge of the Baby Boomers hits Social Security, the system will not survive. Except some genius politician to print more money to mask over the problems, which means more inflation, which means your SS payments will be worth much less. Either that, or they'll just start increasing the eligibility age every year. Either way, those of us at the tail end of the Baby Boom (or younger) are screwed.

I think I'll be lucky to get a couple days' living expenses each month out of Social Security by the time I can collect.

Doom n Gloom, I'm sure I don't know what the hell you're talking about. Last time I heard the word "Elder" was probably when I was 12 and playing Dungeons and Dragons. Fantasy!

Lets not forget that the over 60,s are in-part responsible for getting us into this mess. Everyone who is older is not an Elder. Some are just Olders. Seek only the old wise ones or create your own new dystopia. One does not become an Elder by age. One becomes an Elder by age and the anointment of Eldership by those individuals in the community who over time recognize the superior wisdom and lifeways of the Elder. An Elder earns his reputation. It is not bestowed on greed, narcissism, or ignorance.

For many of us Baby Boomers we will still be working in our 60s. We have no pensions and we did not make enough money to sock away. I hope to make it to 66 when I can collect full Social Security. Then I will "retire" from my day job and get a part time job to be able to live.

Retirement??? What a joke! I'm glad my parents got to retire, for me - no way.

I always feel like the youngest guy in the thread on CD. I just turned thirty and am much happier than when I was twenty, so let's hope the trend continues.

But I will say this: Personal life aside, the future scares the hell out of me. Today might be an great time to be old ...one fellow above mentions having shedded his day job. Awesome. But will that be an option in thirty or forty years, when it's my turn? I have doubts. Then there's global warming which makes everything (life itself) one big question mark that far out. The near future may be rough. A bit off the point of the article, I know, but I think there is a difference between the retired folks of today who can still tour the country in an RV, and the situation my generation's going to face. That does piss me off more than a little bit.

Carolyn you are absolutely correct. However, during the fifties or sixties there was great effort to re-employ retired, (for one reason or another)executives for their experience. But that too went down the drain. The new generation thought they could do it better and without any help. Well, look at us now. Imagine if the new generation were told that too much corporate power was a bad thing? Imagine if the new generation were told that political appointments should be familiar with the responsibilities they were to undertake? Imagine if they were told that out-sourcing will back-fire and there will be a loss of jobs? And the list goes on. I'm 89 and still capable of a good days work, but you should hear the giggles.

I love being in my sixties. I have finally shed myself of a day job, have published two novels, with a third coming out and started and electronic news service. Life has never been better.

Doom n Gloom: "Hey Stilba (big laugh) what I have described in the American Indian idea of an Elder. I used that example just to emphasize that age does not necessarily equate with wisdom. If Elders are to be utilized it is important to utilize real Elders and not just "olders" or little will change in a good direction."

Correction: What you have described is a mix of fantasty and history that has virtually no relevance to modern life.

The problem is, we live in a society called the United States, not American Indiana. In U.S. society, there is NO social structure for what you're talking about. Where does a young person find "Elders" to seek wisdom? Who anoints these Elders? "Seek" the wise ones? How do you know who is and isn't? What's the channel through which to "utilize" them?

U.S. society is more geared toward an old=evil mentality that is not likely to go away soon. And why shouldn't we be? 70-some-year-old John McCain calls for 100 years in Iraq while kiddy-table Obama wants out yesterday.

We're no longer a tribe. Life now is a little more complicated than grampa giving you his watch and his wisdom (the closest Anglo variant on your native Elder). We all have to find our own way.

BTW, pretty typical of younger generations to want their parents to help them, expecting others to do the heavy lifting and come to their rescue.