I remember we, in Europe, were occupied by Hitler for 5 years. In spite of hostilities in the beginning and the end , I, as a child, went to school every day and there was food, water, gas and elctricity all the time. All those 5 years the officials stayed in their jobs and also the burgomasters. There was normal public transport and mail delivery. In fact everything went on as usual like in peace time. I don't know how this was possible for everybody hated the Germans. I remember the occupying German soldiers were friendly to children like us just like the Americans are to the Moslimchildren in Iraq and Afghanistan and played socker with us.
May-be some history expert can tell me what is the difference why this is not possible in the occupied Middle East Countries?

massud February 4th, 2008 1:40 pm
"The failure of reconstruction is the fault of the insurgents. They target reconstruction sites to undermine the Iraqi government's credibility. Challenge this statement; the slow recovery rate of services is the fault of the insurgency."

The so-called Iraqi government is only a puppet. It doesn't have any credibility. The candidates, the blueprint, and the farce elections were all planned and directed by the invader/occupiers. Sheikhly is bidding for the occupiers. They have made every effort to find reasons to remain in Iraq since day one. They (occupiers) deliberetely targeted, and bombed into rubble, the very structures in question. John McCain says it would be fine with him if the occupiers remain in Iraq 100 years.

The problem I have with Iraqis being left immediately with sole responsibility for reconstruction is that so many technicians and honest people have been fired, have fled etc. as Habitat Vic says above. Their government, army, police and all infrastructures have been dismantled, so it is not clear who would be "the Iraqis". They need some time and honest help to recover from the havoc we brought. But we are not part of the solution, except for $$$$.

I would guess that it's pretty tough to provide people with democracy when they're drowning in their own sewage.

If you define "surge" as shit flowing uphill, the surge IS working.

How bout letting Iraqi contractors rebuild Iraq (on our dime of course)? They certainly need the work, and if the insurgents are so hell-bent on killing every Amerikan they see, maybe the Iraqis could actually get it done.

No wonder these people hate us! I hate us too! For what we have done to people who were no threat to us. I don't see how things could be much worse than they currently are if we left!

Sometimes the insurgency are the good guys, Examples:

1. Warsaw ghetto
2. US Revolution
3. ME,if any foreign power ever dared to march in, guns blazing, and occupy Brooklyn, stormed into houses in the middle of the night, dragged my neighbors off in arrest, raped girls, arrested and executed Marty Markowitz (the Brooklyn Boro President), cut off the water supply and power, bombed buildings, made the roads impassable and blamed us Brooklynites for the disaster. I would be right there with sabotage and resistance of all kinds!!

But even so, in Iraq the insurgency did not cause the ruin. We did. We did. We did. We did. We did. We did it. Iraq may not have had a sterling leader before we came (but then again, who does?), but it was THEIR leader and their responsibility to change that. They also had schools for both boys and girls, water, food, markets. power. There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq. They were not a fundamentalist theocracy. They were a regular old dictatorship with a fair amount of brutality like so many other countries in the world, many of whom are our good buddies.

Our only duty to Iraq is to get out and pay reparations for reconstruction administered by someone honest and competent, perhaps Sweden.

I wouldn't agree to disagree just yet.

Cheney/Bush are the predominate blame: 25 of 26 ministries were left at the mercies of the resistance of the insurgency - this was not a mistake, it was a premeditated act.

And it is why "they" rose the flag: Mission Accomplished, on International Workers Day.

Oil dances at $100 a barrel and Cheney from day one has said progress is being made: this is why history is still relevant - and why impeachment should be job one in order to stop this barbaric "depleted" uranium spewing behavior in it's tracks (Toney Early of DTE in Detroit calls spent uranium rods a tradable commodity; these people are insane, the problem is they're everywhere, ya have to keep confronting them like Neo with Agent Smith(s) in Reloaded).

There are no insurgents in Iraq. An insurgent is someone who fights a pre-existing government of which he has been a citizen. One would have to be a 4 or 5 year old to be an insurgent fighting the current "Iraq" government.

Crimes against humanity are always perpetrated by respected members of society. - Eckhart Tolle

Yes, crimes against humanity and war crimes for sure. Doubtless the filthy rich fascists behind these atrocities are well protected so the crime and punishment must befall the ignorant rednecks and other true believers in Satin's Lies.

The U.S. needs to be charged with genocide, crimes against humanity, torture, illegal war, etc. What's holding it up? The Bush administration has been revealed to have told 935 lies about Iraq to justify its criminal attack and occupation of Iraq, and nothing has been done; it's business as usual for America.

Massud,

Perhaps we shall agree to disagree as to the the weighting of who is to blame, historically speaking, for the mess that is current day Iraq. In any case, the current situation is rather poor and, yes, going forward the insurgency may make it too late to do things the "right way."

One of the really sad things is that even the US military foresaw many of these problems. In an elaborate war game in 1998 called Desert Crossing, the final recommendations called for 300-400K US troops to secure the peace along with NOT firing the existing army and police forces in Iraq. The study recommended eliminating top tier (political) command, while keeping vetted rank and file troops/police gainfully employed and assisting in the reconstruction efforts. Oh, and that wargame also recommended using as many local Iraqi companies and laborers as possible for reconstruction efforts.

General Shinseki tried to promote this plan of action, even going so far as to testify to that effect before Congress in 2003. He was roundly rejected/ridiculed by Rumsfeld and Bushco, going into "early retirement" shortly thereafter.

Bush & Company rejected advice from their own military in this matter. Their arrogance helped incubate and grow the insurgency. My opinion is that these mistakes eventually cost the US in both lives (ours and Iraqis) as well as money poorly spent.

A tragic waste. Likely one that will be looked back upon in history as a missed opportunity and an example of how not to do an occupation.

massud Afghanistan has the same problems in Kabul. However, there isn't an insurgency in Kabul so much as in the South and electricity is still not fixed. The problem is the reconstruction contractors were never held responsible for their work, the money was doled out without expectation of results. I have no doubt its the same problem in Iraq.

How do the Iraqis feel about the FREEDOM we have granted them? No more sewage restrictions is just another part of our free market strategy. The free market will fix this - no one will be allowed to poop or pee unless they have the user fee. Perhaps each person will be able to make a deal to sell fertilizer.

Ok ladybug, you've asked for a valid source, and a valid source you shall receive. This is from Human Rights Watch; as far from 'PNAC' as you can get.
http://hrw.org/reports/2005/iraq1005/
Give special attention to Section III "Purpose of Attacks on Civilians". Read the bullet points. However I shall not do all your research for you. Simply google "insurgents reconstruction" and see for yourself.
Some way these 'resistance fighters' have of fighting for their country,eh? If thats fighting for your country; what's fighting against it?
To Habitat Vic and DCNative, thank you for your (constructive)feedback in my debate. Though the question of whose fault it is that civilian infrastructure was destroyed is not in dispute. That was strictly US/Coalition. My point is that in five years since the invasion their ought to be full electricity and plumbing at least at pre-war levels, and that is not the case. And for that I point my finger at the insurgents, for they deliberately attack reconstruction.

What was the Pottery Barn rule?

Oh yes, you break it, you own it.

Got that repigs? How's that ownernship society thing going, got sewage?

The solution is plain to see. Pump all sewerage into the green zones, where the source of all the stink lives.

Another point for ya Massud.
The United states knowingly destroyed power and sewage treatment plants and other aspects of the Iraqi civilian infrastructure. Both times we invaded. This is a war crime as stated in the Geneva Conventions.
Not that is matters now...we no longer abide by international laws.
I work with an Iraqi, his brother is still in the country. He grew up under Saddam, went to university in Bagdad and tells us things were much better then.

Having read some of the "battle Plans" for Iraq going back before the Gulf War, part of the intent was to destroy the Iraqi infrastructure. To take out power generation, the water supply, the sewage treatment plants, the hospitals and transportation. The estimate was that it would cause widespread disease, starvation, dehydration, killing over a million Iraqis and leaving the place ripe for conquest.

The fact that this was illegal and broke many humanitarian treaties made no difference to us at all.

It has worked so far, hasn't it? They are doing it in Gaza, did it in Lebanon, and probably intend the same for Iran.

Hitler was an amateur compared to what is running (or ruining) our nation today.

Challenge this statement; the slow recovery rate of services is the fault of the insurgency. - massud

The insurgency has (clearly) contributed to a slow recovery, but the major blame lies with arrogance, gross incompetence and greed-driven cronyism by (specifically) the Coalition Provisonal Authority and (generally) the Bush Whitehouse.

The insurgents did not fire all levels of the Iraqi army and local police forces, allowing looters to run rampant for weeks.

The insurgency did not fire all Baathist party members (including over 50K school teachers!) five months into the occupation. Along with nearly all the Iraqi engineers, repair techs, administrators, etc, that actually ran and repaired things.

The insurgency did not install a politically (US Republican party) connected 24-year old to run/reconstruct the Iraq stock exhange and banking system. Couldn't speak Arabic, of course, but then again only 11 out of 900 US Embassy staff were fluent in Arabic. Politics over competence, yes sir.

The insurgents did not force Bremer to stop repairs on existing power plants in favor of having Halliburton (try) to build new ones from scratch. BTW, using imported workers from Pakistan, Indonesia & West Africa rather than local, out-of-work Iraqis.

The list goes on and on. Read "Life in the Emerald City" by Rajiv Chandrasekaran. He's a former reporter and he backs up all his statements with names and/or footnotes to publically released documents. I have heard similar FUBAR stories from two friends that have been on the ground in Iraq. One with Doctors Without Borders, the other a Navy SeaBee (going back on 3rd tour later this year).

I don't know if things would have worked out even if we had done things "correctly," but I'm afraid way way too much blame lies with how the US mishandled things in the occupation.

Massud,
They are not insurgents, they are the resistance defending their country. And please back up your information, how are you so sure? Otherwise just shut up and go to post to the PNAC website, obviously a place where you belong.

And we call this democracy.
Mission Accomplished!!!!

The Gaza Strip is suffering EXACTLY the same problems. I guess we've learned well from Israel.

How many billions have we squandered there? And this is the state the country is in? Of course those billions went to US contractors, sent there to resurrect the services that have been shut down by many factors. The money was paid, and this is what we have to show for it, a lake of sewage, neighborhoods running on generators.

In other words - NOTHING

And the repigs, telling us the Govt should be run like a business, that otherwise its wasteful and full of slouth.

If they knew how to run a business, they would all look like the business's bush ran. Into the ground.

The failure of reconstruction is the fault of the insurgents. They target reconstruction sites to undermine the Iraqi government's credibility. Challenge this statement; the slow recovery rate of services is the fault of the insurgency.

Good thing we invaded Iraq and reduced the population by several million. It's clearly obvious the Iraqis needed help. I wonder what it was like over there before Bush's mission was accomplished? It must have been horrible. As soon as they figure out the Democracy we gave them, everythng will be fine. I'm so proud of our country now I could just shit. I'm gonna go buy a new Bible. I wonder if I could go to Baghdad and open a Christian church, maybe get Jim Baker to handle the finances.

just another 'gaza'...............poor, poor, people.

Yup, "The Surge" is working, but for whom?