Ian I think you posted on the wrong thread. This thread is about Afghanistan.

It is folly to refer to Israel as America's ally and even more so to refer to America as Israel's puppet. It is Israel which is America's puppet. It is America which has corrupted Israeli politics. It is American money, American militarism, and American religious fanaticism which has led to the rise of the extreme right wing in Israel.

"It's up to the Afghans to figure out these issues for themselves. We're not abandoning them to anything other than social conditions resulting from their own history and culture".

Problem is we put them in this position given our CIA covert action against the Soviet Union and we allowed the Pakistanis and Saudis to run the place too. So really we do have some responsibility there, Afghans certainly feel that way. Its largely our fault its a failed state. We helped to destroy it. Bush is doing a horrendous job of trying to fix it. Afghanistan is now the 5th poorest nation in the world.

My solution...a Marshall Plan with real money going for jobs, the economy, education, and trade.

"militantliberal January 27th, 2008 12:42 pm"

That's an unfortunately very bogus post. For one thing, militantliberal (ML), totally neglects that the 9-11 attacks did not happen just because a bunch of Saudis toting mere box cutters hijacked the planes, and that INSIDE JOB is virtually a certainty to have been top-involved; there's far more for arguing 'inside job' than there is for people arguing against this, minimally, very strong likelihood.

As for the Buddhist statues, ML only speaks in terms of what the msm, corp. news media reported and therefore judges only based on far from fully verified "information"; blindly believing that the very corrupt, imperialist and empire ally, rogue, ... corp. news media tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, which I'm pretty sure ML would not do on other issues. That's like judging based on only hearsay; and regardless of few or many people repeating the same hearsay, if it's hearsay, then it's hearsay and NOT proof. They definitely weren't thoroughly witness; any who were witness at all only saw what they saw and nothing more, so they're not able to speak in terms like God could, say.

That is, we don't know that it was not Washington secretly putting the Taliban up for this and thereby setting them up to be hated, despised all the more strongly by masses of IGNORANT and very naive public. After all, we do know that there's very strong proof that the U.S. govt has definitely conducted many criminal, very rogue covert ops around the world, in many countries; and we know that they specifically said that the U.S. (govt) needed something like a "NEW PEARL HARBOR" in order to drive Americans to support the U.S. launching its war machinery.

They definitely are the very kind of people, power elites, to have tried to persuade the Taliban to destroy those Buddhist statues. Whether or not this was really done, however, now this is not proven as far as anyone in the West or even outside of the Taliban and whoever was involved in ordering the effort to try to persuade them to do this; if this is what really happened.

Simply, we do not know to know the whole truth of that particular matter, and we have very strong cause to have these types of suspicions. And it's NOT our fault that these causes exist.

" Big_Money January 27th, 2008 12:47 pm

...

Why does the term "Ottawa" refer both to the Politcal Establishment, and also to the so-called Conservative party? ..."

Very simple; just don't read too much into what is written. The CP is the party in power, even if it is a minority govt. So, it's really okay to use 'Ottawa' in the two ways that you remind that Margolis did. I hadn't picked up on what you say, but it's as just said, and I immediately understand what's meant and let it be. And it's not something of significant importance anyway.

BM's technically right, enough; just that it's not an important matter. And the Harper, so CP, govt is the one in power, and they can and do often enough use that power to try to prevent members of other parties and Canadians in general from learning of important truths the Harper govt wants to keep secret for as long as they can get away with. That they really do want to do that is actually obvious.

They do have that ability too. The Defence Minister, I believe anyway, is of the CP, f.e. And the CAF commanders sure as day is clearer than night (usually anyway) aren't doing anything honourable in terms of ... pretty much anything; but while my intended point is specifically in terms of keeping the other parties and ALL Canadians truthfully and promptly informed.

I've listened to CAF spokespeople over CBC radio a number of times and they were just spewing out bs, deceitful, ... propaganda, lies; obviously to try to fool the uninformed and therefore ignorant and naive among Canadians. Damn shit gets me ripping pissed off whenever I hear these dip-sh*ts telling LIES to Canadians; the manipulative schmucks that these liars are. And they surely do usually if not always know that they're LYING ... their souls away.

So, and again, it's okay to refer to the CP as 'Ottawa'.

"whatfools January 27th, 2008 1:26 pm

"a legitimate retaliation?"

I believe these were Saudis reacting to American's neverending support for Zionist agression. Is it not amazing how a scant score and a small handful of razor blades has brought a once great nation to it's knees?"

VERY TRUE; although whatfools also neglects the strong likelihood of 'inside job'. Ooops, otoh, it's actually implied the closing and rhetorically stated question.

"Ronald White January 27th, 2008 1:34 pm

it forgets just how repugnant the Taliban are and were.

Could this apply also apply to any regime as repugnant as the Taliban in any country that doesn't happen to inhabit the land that , potentially , the biggest fossil-fuel pipeline will pass through."

LET'S NOT FORGET USA's protege Israel, svp! It's totally and strongly fitting for response to the people demonising the Taliban while not mentioning equally bad and actually worse criminals. Israel is far worse; we don't see the Taliban arm-twisting the interntional legal bodies, etc.

The Taliban were unfortunately miseducated and only need to be correctly, diplomatically, ... approached on this matter, and I believe in humanity, that there is good in the Taliban that is just not understood, for their harsh ways make it difficult to see this about them. But as unjustly and unacceptably harsh as they are, they're not this in a really hellbent way, while the USA and Israel are, and while, additionally, applying their wickedness and military might, covert ops, etc., against The Peoples of many countries; nearly all over the planet as far as the USA is considered.

They make the Taliban's harsh ways, which really are not based on wittingly committing wrongs and crimes, seem nearly unnoticeable in comparison; but not to bigot and narrow-minded, pointy-headed, pro-empire, etc., fools of the "West", who love to point hypocritically at others.

The USA never cared about the Taliban's harshness; it has absolutely nothing to do with the motives of this war on them [and] really Afghanistan, the non-drug and -war lord sort of Afghanis anyway. The others, the worst of the worst, the most really criminal of Afghanistan are where today? Not sure? Margolis' article says where they are now, and he's far from alone about this. These people are right in this respect.

Wherein I question his article is where he refers to the exportation of the heroin from Afghanistan being done through Pakistan, without mentioning any other countries, and he should not mention only Pakistan when others are also used. A very reported drug route to Turkey and Europe is through the Balkans, Kosovo and area anyway; but there are surely other routes or ways, I believe. One other might very well be via military aircraft flying back to the USA, while possibly making some drops at any intermediate landings made on route back to the U.S. And if that's happening, which it definitely can be, for this sort of thing happened during WWII and with CAF, Canadian Armed Forces' planes, although not necessarily for drugs, yet still for illegally smuggling very profitable loads back to Ca; well, then it could also be happening with USN ships.

After all, those military ships and aircraft have no concerns about border inspections, etc.; and plenty can be transferred in crates into which onlookers cannot see anything. Etc. Coffins of purportedly soldiers KIA could even be used. In any case, there are plenty of cargo crates or boxes that are regularly available for use, and there is nothing to worry about in terms of security checks. After all, the people in charge of these criminal shipments for the sake of major racket definitely are in positions to be able to make sure that security checks are not performed on "special" cargo, or if they can't prevent this, then they can buy probably most people among those employed to perform these security checks. And that's if these ever are performed in terms of verifying what [all] of the contents of these USN ships and the military aircraft are carrying on board.

The capability is real, so the only question is whether or not they're doing this too; instead of only using ground routes, which is surely not the case. After all, those drugs "have to" make their way beyond where ground routes can reach, such as to the UK and US, f.e.

"Initial invasion and perpetual occupation had , has and will have absolutely nothing with securing the rights-to-vote for women or preserving ancient Buddhist statues and everything to do with the unchallenged American-control of that pipeline.

Read again and try to understand the implications and intentions of the American Empire as laid out in The Project for the New American Century . It's as close as a facimile of Mein Kampf as anything could be ; just change a few names."

DEFINITELY!

"Should NATO armies be commended for trying to accomplish all of their lofty but smoke-and-mirrors-goals ? Yes"

AT THAT POINT, I DIFFER. NATO is not commendable; it's very, very criminal, and its not accidentally or unintentionally; it's directed, deliberately, and secretly. The crimes aren't all secret, for enough of them have been very well reported on or exposed, and very well analysed, investigatively; but there's plenty that is secret in terms of the deliberate direction behind all of the major crimes of NATO.

It's been hellbent disgusting in Haiti, as has also been previously and also today in African countries, f.e. What it's done in Haiti since Feb 2004 is HELL ON EARTH INSANE, murders (many), flagrant complicity in murders (many), major assaults on neighbourhoods of extremely poor, defenceless, and sane Haitians who have only wanted justice and for President Aristide to be returned to his rightful position as
president, f.e.!

NATO has NO honourable goals, really.

What in hell is commendable about NATO! It's another war machine from HELL.

And NATO's only getting ever worse. Now they're seriously speaking of making nuclear first-striking something they want to guarantee themselves the right to do; regardless of the UN, intl laws and conventions, etc., etc. There are some recent articles posted at www.globalresearch.ca on this, and one of the articles is from the either Telegraph or Register, UK, while the other article is from not GR but a source that I've forgotten the name of.

Those have NATO planning to guarantee this right to itself without any concern whatsoever for the views of The Peoples of our world or planet, and on the purported basis of this being for helping to prevent harm against large populations. NATO does NOT care at all about large populations; except to help with the [depopulation] agenda of ruling elites, f.e.

That was clearly and horribly strongly proven in Haiti since Feb. 2004, in African countries, in Kosovo and area, ETC!

There is absolutely NOTHING commendable about NATO unless we're to be knights in satan's service; a fitting description of NATO, albeit not all members of it, and certainly not all soldiers who serve in the falsely called peacekeeping force(s). Or maybe they just equate human depopulation of hell's ways as keeping or ensuring peace; by eliminating people who'll otherwise become victims of the crimes of NATO and therefore the hidden ruling elites, so therefore the corporatists of the "West", before these otherwise eventual victims can produce the "wrong" kind of news to the world and about what's really going on where they live and against them.

Silence is a form of apparent peace; and NATO doesn't care about its appearances being of mostly the deceiving kind. It's the way of NATO and the hidden ruling elites anyway.

"One last rhetorical question : Being that you are so gung-ho to remove the Taliban , I resume that you are either an enlisted person in one of the NATO peace-keeping forces in Afghanistan or , only slightly less commendable , that you are in the immediate process of signing up?"

SURELY MEAN ASSUME, NOT RESUME, I believe.

Peacekeeping my ASS.

DCBELTWAY - Margolis is criticizing - critics don't have to "offer solutions". They just have to have valid points. Seems Margolis does have a solution though: get Canadian forces out of Afghanistan. Frankly, I'm in favour of letting Afghans make their own decisions without pressure from Western powers - however that would play out for your mother-in-law.

What solutions are you offering?

You've got to give Bush some credit for his self-fulfilling prophecies: Afghanistan is clearly a failed State. But he has the forme Chevron Exec in charge of Kabul. Now we have Afghanistan as a failed state, Iraq as a failed state, Pakistan as arguably a failed state, and Bush has sent $20 billion in arms to the Saudis and neclear techonology to India, after the U.S. allowed Pakistan to develop nuclear weapons. So what does he want to do for an encore?

Destabilize Iran. So as I say, you've got to give him credit; he is the revers of King Midas: everything he touches turns to shit.

"What can be done about the corrupt warlords and the opium and the lack of security?"

It's up to the Afghans to figure out these issues for themselves. We're not abandoning them to anything other than social conditions resulting from their own history and culture. The "solutions" they arrive at may be ugly and bloody, but hey, so was our own Civil War, and if I remember correctly, President Lincoln went to great effort to discourage other nations from interfering in it. Slavery and the preservation of the Union were problems best solved by Americans slaughtering other Americans without foreign forces getting involved, as far as he was concerned. Progressives should be wary of romantic notions that we can solve others problems for them.

Margolis criticizes the situation but offers no solutions. People call for pulling out of Afghanistan and this would abandon those people to the Pakistani-backed Taliban. I'm married to an Afghan and we don't want to see that happen neither does the Afghan-American community. He'd also never be able to see his mother again who is in Kabul....he already waited to see her 15 years because of the civil war and Taliban rule and finally got to see her again recently. However, as I said the occupation has not brought security or legitimacy to the Karzai government. What is the just solution then in the best interest of Afghans...and no pulling out and forcing Afghans to suffer under the Taliban again is not in their best interests (maybe Pakistan's)!

What can be done about the corrupt warlords and the opium and the lack of security? These issues require real aswers and Margolis only offers whining and complaining. As a progressive I am sick of the cop-out simplistic response when it comes to answering what to do about Afghanistan especially when its coming from the same people complaining about the horror of the Taliban's actions against the Afghan people and especially women seven years ago. Way to reverse course on an issue.

I really wish people gave a damn about the Afghans in all this.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Attacks on Afghan students up sharply
By JASON STRAZIUSO, Associated Press Writer Wed Jan 23, 4:21 PM ET

KABUL, Afghanistan - The number of students and teachers killed in Taliban attacks has tripled in the past year in a campaign to close schools and force teenage boys to join the Islamic militia, Afghanistan's education minister says.
While the overall state of Afghan education shows improvement, Education Ministry numbers point to a sharp decline in security for students, teachers and schools in the south, where the Taliban thrives: The number of students out of classes because of security concerns has hit 300,000 since March 2007, compared with 200,000 in the previous 12 months, while the number of schools closing has risen from 350 to 590.
The Taliban strategy is deliberate: "to close these schools down so that the children and primarily the teenagers that are going to the schools — the boys — have no other option but to join the Taliban," Education Minister Mohammad Hanif Atmar told The Associated Press in an interview Tuesday.
The Taliban know that educated Afghans won't join the militants, so a closed school leaves students with two options — to join the Taliban or "to cross the border and go into those hate madrassas," Atmar said, referring to Islamic seminaries in Pakistan where "they will be professionally trained as terrorists."
Wakil Ahmad Khan, a top official at Pakistan's religious affairs ministry, said Pakistani "madrassas are doing a wonderful job by providing education to millions of students" and "if the Afghan officials have any such information, they should share it with Pakistan's Foreign Ministry."
Attacks on schools still in operation have actually fallen in the last 10 months — to 98 from 187 in the same period of 2006, Atmar said, attributing the drop to a community defense initiative. But the Taliban have switched to targeting students on their way to and from school or in other places where they congregate.
The U.N. said it couldn't confirm that Taliban fighters were upping efforts to recruit schoolboys, and no educational aid organizations that could confirm Atmar's claims are working in provinces such as Helmand in the dangerous south.
Adam Rutland, a spokesman at the British reconstruction team in Helmand province, said the perception in Helmand province was that more schools were open than in the past, although he added that it's well known that disaffected and poor young men are a recruiting base for the Taliban.
Atmar said 147 students and teachers have been killed in Taliban attacks since mid-March, compared with 46 in the previous year. The 147 include 58 students and teachers killed in a single bombing and gunfire attack in Baghlan province in November.
The number of students and teachers wounded has gone from 46 to 200, he said.
Most of the schools closed for security reasons are in the south. In Helmand, the world's largest opium poppy growing region, 177 schools are closed, along with 150 in nearby Kandahar province, Atmar said.
He said dozens of students he talked with in Helmand province recently told him the Taliban are pushing them to enlist. Some 1,100 students from outlying areas are traveling to the relative safety of the Helmand provincial capital of Lashkar Gah to attend class. Atmar said he hopes soon to provide housing and food for these students.
Of the 13 districts in Helmand, seven have no schools in operation, said Sayed Abrar Agha, the director of education in Helmand. District leaders like Agha provide the figures that Atmar cites.
Agha said he recently visited the town of Musa Qala — which was controlled by the Taliban until last month — and the head education official refused to talk to him.
"He's still afraid of the Taliban and doesn't want to meet with government officials," Agha said.
Atmar predicted attacks on students and teachers would continue to increase unless the international community and the Afghan government delivered protection.
Still, overall there is good news in Afghanistan's educational comeback since the days of the Taliban, when girls couldn't attend schools and fewer than 1 million boys did. Some 5.8 million students now attend class, up from 5.4 million a year ago, 35 percent of them female, Atmar said.
The Education Ministry's goal is that within four years 75 percent of all boys will be in classes — up from roughly 50 percent currently — and 60 percent of all girls — up from less than 30 percent today.
Schools also suffer from a shortage of qualified teachers, particularly female ones, and of infrastructure.
U.S. forces in the eastern province of Kunar are linking Afghan children with schools in the U.S., Italy and Germany that can supply pens, notebooks and chalk, the military said Wednesday.
"Being in the U.S., it is hard to visualize the lack of resources they have here," Army Capt. Jay S. VanDenbos, 30, from Tahlequah, Okla., was quoted as saying in a military news release.
Teachers are underpaid, and of Afghanistan's 9,400 schools, only 40 percent have proper facilities, he said. "Ninety percent of the schools are open-air schools, which are sometimes a tarp and a dirt floor. They'll have a rock that they use as a chalk board, and kids sit underneath the tarp and learn."
"Most of the kids want to learn. They yearn for knowledge," said VanDenbos. "Anytime anyone goes on patrols, the kids are screaming to 'give me pen, give me pen.'"

Eric Margolis isn't some bloviating politician with a domestic political agenda or a pompous cable TV news pundit scoring a paycheck for plucking some self-serving nonsense out of his ass. He has been in the area and knows the people. Those criticizing him here have had all their "knowledge" of Afghanistan filtered through a compliant media following the appropriate party line.

It's the latest example of the Liberals pathetic failure to demand Ottawa answer tough questions...

What? Canadian liberals suck too? Geeze, I hoped it was just a US thang.

Selranospm wrote: "At that rate we should have bombed Saudi Arabia first and left Iraq alone."

I have thought so all along. If any government other than the Taliban bears the blame for 9/11 it was Bush's best buddies, the Saudis.

Ronald White wrote: "Being that you are so gung-ho to remove the Taliban , I resume that you are either an enlisted person in one of the NATO peace-keeping forces in Afghanistan or , only slightly less commendable , that you are in the immediate process of signing up?"

Nope, I'm not in the armed forces. And we did remove the Taliban, didn't we? Except that moron in the White House screwed it up. So we might as well bring home the troops soon and secure our borders, ports, airlines and embassies more tightly as the Taliban return to power with OBL in tow and re-establish Al Qaeda camps.

Anyways, thanks to Canadians for trying to help, and sorry our guys have killed some of your guys with "friendly" fire.

We will soon see if |Canadians really are made of better stuff than Americans.

Nothing will change on this score until we either get rid of Harpo or he stops with his wet-dreams about Canada as "the energy superpower" (his euphemism for Canada's status as petro-vassal of the US). I don't know what it's gonna take to wake up Canadians. Stephan Dion, a thoroughly decent guy, just doesn't have the charisma necessary for our climate of specular politics. And with the Bush-Rove nominee Michael Ignatiev hovering like a vulture waiting for Dion's corpse to become ripe enough, things do not look good for either Canada or Afghanistan.

The NDP has fallen below the Greens in the opinion polls. Perhaps it's time we lefties rethought our allegiances.

The Taliban came to power in 1996 I believe and after the US bombed the place Canada got interested in the Taliban and its harsh treatment of Women. Yeah right! If the US were to pull out, Canada would stay because of the Taliban's treatment of women! At that rate we should have bombed Saudi Arabia first and left Iraq alone. Canada is doing what it is told to do.

The Afghan people are caught between a rock and a hard place. The ungoing NATO occupation which is failing miserably to maintain security and the Hardline Pakistani and Saudi backed Taliban neither of these scenarios is good for the Afghans. We need to find a solution to these two extremes to benefit the Afghan people.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080121/ap_on_re_as/afghan_schools

it forgets just how repugnant the Taliban are and were.

Could this apply also apply to any regime as repugnant as the Taliban in any country that doesn't happen to inhabit the land that , potentially , the biggest fossil-fuel pipeline will pass through.

Initial invasion and perpetual occupation had , has and will have absolutely nothing with securing the rights-to-vote for women or preserving ancient Buddhist statues and everything to do with the unchallenged American-control of that pipeline.

Read again and try to understand the implications and intentions of the American Empire as laid out in The Project for the New American Century . It's as close as a facimile of Mein Kampf as anything could be ; just change a few names.

Should NATO armies be commended for trying to accomplish all of their lofty but smoke-and-mirrors-goals ? Yes

Will they do that before the NATO invaders turn tail and retreat like the Romans , British and Russians before them ?

One last rhetorical question : Being that you are so gung-ho to remove the Taliban , I resume that you are either an enlisted person in one of the NATO peace-keeping forces in Afghanistan or , only slightly less commendable , that you are in the immediate process of signing up?

Those who can ; do while those who can't ; talk

"a legitimate retaliation?"

I believe these were Saudis reacting to American's neverending support for Zionist agression. Is it not amazing how a scant score and a small handful of razor blades has brought a once great nation to it's knees?

There will be an election soon in Canada.

Neither the minority government of Harper(Con) nor the the official opposition of Dion(Fib) deserve the favour of Canadians. The Manly report is just wriggle room for that ass kissing PM Harper.

In the next election I urge all Canadians who read this to vote Bloc or NDP.

The leader of the NDP, Jack Layton is the only politician in Ottawa with the cajones to deal with the problem of the USA and it's thieving ruling elite as well as the ongoing criminal wars against Afghanistan and Iraq.

Say No to the Fibs No to the Cons.

Vote NDP!

Nice article, but just a sec...

"It's the latest example of the Liberals pathetic failure to demand Ottawa answer tough questions about the mess in Afghanistan."

"Ottawa is hiding the full truth about Afghanistan from Canadians."

Why does the term "Ottawa" refer both to the Politcal Establishment, and also to the so-called Conservative party? I don't mind using the name of a town to describe the whole fithy business that goes on there. But by calling Harper and his band of oil shill operatives and their very secretive minority governemt "Ottawa", you are giving him much more status - and blame - than he is due.

I agree Canada is no longer serving its interests by keeping troops in Afghanistan. Nor is America. I originally favored our invasion as a legitimate retaliation for the 9/11 massacre, but Bush has so bungled this war, along with everything else, we can't do more than keep the Taliban out of a few major cities. However, I dislike this column because:
1. it implies there would be a legitimate national government if the US stopped interfering; but there can't be a national government because Afghanistan isn't a nation-state; it's a mountainous region of archaic kin-based societies that has a paper border around it
2. it forgets just how repugnant the Taliban are and were; remember the Saudi-style department for the "prevention of vice and promotion of virtue"? the ban on female employment and education? the destruction of the great Buddhist statue at Bamiyan? as for the Pashtun, basis of the Taliban, don't forget the honor killings, the forced marriages of daughters, the tribal courts that order, for example, the rape of an offender's sister; these guys make Soviet Communism look good.

Margolis has developed quite a memory hole.