Civilians? When you teach your children to kill Israelis then there ARE NO CIVILIANS!!! Isreal is right. Bomb you to the stone age...oh wait... your already there!

Gyptian
The deaths in Sabra and Shatilla were brought about by the PLO terrorists who fled back to the camps KNOWING FULL WELL that any retaliation would bring about disproportionate civilian deaths. When you bring death down upon your own people the guilt lies with you...... not the party who did the actual killing. If you torment a bull and it breaks down the corral and gores innocent people the blame lies with you.... not the bull. Do you expect the Israelis to simply sit back and allow their citizens to be murdered? It is only a numbers game to those who made it that by creating the situation. I don't EVER recollect the Palestinians arrresting terrorists, or turning them over for justice, or punishing them in any way for bringing the wrath of Israel down upon them..... In fact for the most part they seem to encourage and support them. In my book they made their own bloody bed! You know what the numbers look like when the victims are American....... Take a look at Afghanistan....... and Iraq.... To our government it doesn't even matter weather the victims are even remotely associated with the criminals.... What are the numbers? 100,000 to one?

You persist in ignoring facts and history that are inconvenient to your position.

Howard

gyptian,

I just figured it out. Your intolerance for opposing points of view - You're George Bush aren't you!

gyptian,

As is typical of finger pointers and name callers, you avoid answering any real questions.

Do you think the Israelis are just going to go away?

Do you offer any solutions or are you here strictly to throw stones?

Is there any room for common ground or is the only real estate you want to see Jews occupying the sea-floor?

Do you have anything to add to the conversation other than rant?

You say alot, but you don't say anything useful.

stonetool:
"How many suicide bombers has Israel sent into the occupied territories? or into Sabra and Shatilla?"

Rehashing numbers is a waste of time. It has been done here many times on CD. On an average you have at least 5-10 Palestinians deaths for every israeli death.

True ... every single life is valuable but the disparity in statistics has relevance. Also ... why is a single jewish life worth 10 Palestinian lives. Ive never understood that dichotomy. For peace to happen in the middle-east israel needs to be truly committed to peace ... we both know that ...

As for that dickwad kenpot ... how does CD allow these idiots on this board is beyond me. By the way ... i did try the finger trick you suggested ... if you wiggle it around a bit you might find your brain.

Gyptian:
The Jewish homeland was voted into existence by a unanimous vote of the league of nations member states....... In the same time period as the rest of the artificial "nations" of the middle east were created from the Ottoman Empire.... Just after WW1.... in accord with the Balfour Doctrine. "Lines in the sand" became boundries of nations that had no national tradition, and two bit tribal warlords became rulers at the stroke of a pen. It is you, not I who are ignoring history...... How many suicide bombers has Israel sent into the occupied territories? or into Sabra and Shatilla? How many airliners have they hijacked, how many athletes have they murdered? There is now and enraged population on both sides of the conflict....... The barbarity of thet standard practice of murdering civilians, and then fleeing into an area where civilians of their own will be the inevitable result of any retaliatory action long ago cost the Palestinian cause any support they might have had from me if there remained any from the string of hyjackings and murders and rapes. Some folks may have short memories here but I have NOT!! I remember what happened in '67... and in '73...... and I remember how the western powers DID NOT support a beleagured Israel though some folks have forgotten or read modern left wing propaganda and believe otherwise. I remember the Syrian artillery on the Golan Heights overlooking Israel bombarding Israeli cities full of civilians...... And 3 mighty armies armed with Soviet weapons attacking Israel at the same time from three different quadrants with the clearly and oft stated goal of obliterating Israel and killing every man, woman, and child. The brief but desperate struggle..... The Egyptian army bottled up helpless in retreat under the Israeli sword..... given a reprieve (73) ..... the fall of Nassar, the "peace treaties" with Jordan and Egypt and the ongoing war of attrition by Syria since that time using the Palestinians as their pawns.......

I remember it all ............ It appears however that your memory is either lacking or very selective...........

For peace and independence to occur the Palestinians who have no history as a nation must show independence from outside influence, and must abandon the sword for the pen. They must rein in the wackos who only want to continue the conflict and show some serious signs of wanting to become a nation and co-exist with Israel as well as other nations in the region. I've been listening to your line of BS from the Ameircan left as well as many in the middle east....... But I do remember what happened, I have NOT forgotten a many of the things you choose to deny and ingnore. Prehaps when I and my generation of informed Americans have passed on people will accept your re-write of history.......... I know better.

Howard

Well gyptian,

Since you are quite obviously too simple to get the point, I will explain it to you. There is plenty of blame in the current situation for everybody to have a share. Anyone who says that the one side is 100% right and the other side is 100% wrong is a complete imbecille and has absolutely nothing to offer in terms of a solution.

Either proposition assumes the other side is just going to go away and the problem will be solved. Compromise and negotiation are not part of the tool kit belonging to either extreme Zionist or extreme Arabist. Both groups of people are the problem.

So gyptian, until you recogize that some sort of common ground must be sought, take your pointing finger and stick it up your ass.

Reading this heartfelt, compassionate defense of israeli genocide against the Palestinians is enough to make you wanna barf. The only defenders of this genocide seem to be american and israeli zionists. A selctive interpretation of history can make you justify the most heinous crimes ... like the israelis are doing now. Judging by the above post ... the reasoning seems to be .. if the Assyrians did it we can too ! How stupid and moronic is this argument in the present day world ...

gyptian,

I am certain you are right. Heavens, the Palestinians have always been gentle lambs. They couldn't possibly have lifted a finger against anyone and anyone who says they did is a liar and a Nazi. Those poor people, first subjugated by the Hitites, the Assyrians, the Egyptians, the Arabs, then the Egyptians again, the Turks, then the Egyptians again, and now the Israelis. The last in a long line of rutheless, murderous, barbaric bastards ruling the most peaceful, gentle, Palestinians.

Its enough to make you wanna puke.

PJD:
You also forgot a few things....... conveniently..... You forgot that Israel was invaded from 3 sides.... Jordan, Syria, and Egypt in 1948..... with STATED intent to wipe them permanently off the face of the earth, and likewise in 1967, and 1973 ...... I remember the last two quite clearly. For conveniently forget that Israel took the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan in the process of repelling the 1967 invasion, and forget that those same countries and other middle eastern nations have supported systematic MURDER of civilians from those areas and others for many many years. You forget that the PLO and Hamas and others who have conducted this campaign of murder directed almost entirely against civilians have routinely used civilian populations as cover...... encouraging retaliation which inevitably costs the lives of their own people for political purposes. You forget that the blockade is just the latest episode in a conflict which has been going on for years, NOT a unilateral act of genocidal harrassment against the innocent palestinians. This conflict is being fed from the powers in the Arab world who have nothing to lose and are using the people of Palestine as pawns. I am sick to death of the extremely biased entirely one sided reportage of this as the "evil Israelis and the innocent Palestinians"....... that view is entirely bogus. There is right and there is wrong on both sides, and the constant escalation of violence has created groups on both sides so filled with hatred that those who would resolve the issues peacably have no chance at all. Every time efforts are made in that direction the wacko fringe one side or the other does something to blow those efforts out of the water. Who the hell do you think kept the camps of Sabra and Shatilla going for many years and refused to allow refugees to integrate into Lebanese society or to create a new life for themselves? It wasn't Israel!.... Who do you think stampeeded them in the first place with bogus horror stories creating the refugees? ..... The Israelis didn't drive them out...... And who has been arming and encouraging them rather than trying to reach a resolution. The current situation in the occupied territories is simply an outgrowth of this entire cycle.
It is both easy and stupid in the extreme to look ONLY at the present situation and ignore it's genesis, and to condemn one side. One fundamental truth that people seem mostly unaware of is that when there is a dispute between two individuals or two groups which appears unresolvable..........there are third parties keeping that dispute alive. Remove those third parties and the dispute may be resolved. Do you think the people in the West Bank and Gaza want this? The people in Israel? Do you think a Palestinian state is the answer and will solve the problem........ You and I know better...... At least I hope you aren't simple minded. What option do you propose other than screaming about the injustice of it all? Perhaps everybody in Israel should take a "suicide pill"....... Is that your answer? Do you propose that Israel simply tolerate missile attacks, suicide bombings, murder of civilians? Perhaps that they gradually give up a bit here and a bit there until the entire population is crowded into Tel Aviv? How about giving the Golan Heights back to Syria...... so they can again place artillery there to shell Israeli civilians?
What response do YOU propose the Israelis take when their people are murdered? I don't say that they are taking the "right response"...... but they MUST respond in some way. I would expect...... no I would DEMAND that our government respond if people from across the border were murdering Americans..... Hopefully with an intelligent response rather than the way Bush responded.
I wonder how the British would have responded to such provocation when they governed Palestine??? I suspect there would have been massive brutality and bloodshed.... And we all know how the Jemal Pasha dealt with people he didn't like.... If the Ottomans still ruled Palestine he would probably "resettle" them by simply marching them out into the Negev under guard of armed soldiers until they all dropped dead of thirst as he did to the Armenians who never did anything against the Ottomans. This conflict has gone much too far for simplistic solutions. If groups like Hamas and others of their Ilk really felt a responsibility to the people of Palestine there would be serious efforts to resolve this, not ongoing terror and this would NOT be happening.

Howard

PJD:

The Israeli foreign minister, Tzipi Livni, agrees with Ramon's strategy, saying that it is "inconceivable that life in Gaza continues to be normal."

Life in all of Palestine has not been "normal" for the last 60 years.

Thanks for the clarification Ullern :-) I understand your frustration but I don't think slapping faces would do much other than get you arrested. These types of people would just write you off as some kind of loony and ignore your message altogether.

What really frustrates me is the refusal of the international community to use the "Uniting for Peace" option in the UN to over-ride the US security council veto and get some action (see the news item from a couple of days ago about the US not supporting a SC resolution to ease the blockade). This option (created by General Assembly resolution 377) is designed to break deadlocks in the Security Council, when one permanent member is constantly vetoing a resolution. It requires 7 SC members or a majority of General Assembly members to call an emergency meeting of the GA. If the resolution is passed in the GA it is binding on the Security Council. It was most famously used by the US during the Suez Crisis when the French and British were vetoing resolutions (and it worked, they withdrew their forces within a week).

It annoys me every time the US vetoes something in the Security council and everyone just perpetuates the myth that that is the end of the story and nothing can be done about it. It doesn't of course guarantee that the Uniting for Peace resolution won't just be ignored, but it at least puts world opinion firmly on the record instead of resolutions either disappearing altogether or being watered down beyond recognition to enable them to get past the US veto. It would also authorise the UN to act with or without US involvement.

It is about time world leaders started stepping up and refusing to crumble every time the US threatens (or uses) a veto. And it is long past time that the media stopped mouthing this myth about the overwhelming power of the US veto - it can be over-ridden, the world just needs to "Unite for Peace" and get on with it. Bottom line is - the US can only block Security Council resolutions if the rest of the world allows them to.

Genocide happening on our tvs
- all we do to stop it is say "please"…

*

My point here being that all western gov'ts - representing us - do about Israel's atrocities is to ask Israel to "please" ease up on Gaza, while simultaneously supporting Israel materially - like with some US $ 10 m a DAY in subsidies.

I'm ashamed that my country supports such policies. Quite right that Gaza is one big extermination camp - with our support. And all we manage to do to stop it is say "please". Disgustingly weak of US.

It makes me want to slap someone in charge, get them personally - no lasting harm, but much closer to the bone: tell them loudly "You can't do that" and follow up with a good, old-fashioned slap to make them FEEL the argument and remember next time they're in a position of decision. No shooting, no killing, no lasting physical harm - but swinging, stinging slaps to the face for the whole of Knesset.

Given a chance, I'd take that job, now after years and years of watching them harass, harass and harass Israel's neighbours and Gaza. And their enabler Bush: tell him off and then slap him silly and make him run down the street shamed away from ever returning to human company. Wipe that smirk off his face with a well-placed, stinging slap.

Gaza is one giant concentration camp, established by Israel and the United States. Shame on all concerned. Shame on them.

I wonder what would happen in the US if militant groups in Tiajuana began firing missiles into SanDiego and LA?

Check out these websites -

www.mecaforpeace.org

www.ifamericansknew.org

You can make donations at both places

If this is directed at me, thanks Ullern. I probably won't post again after this if this is the sort of petty response I can expect from other Common Dreamers. Sorry, I must have misunderstood, I thought we were like minded folks here who were more concerned about issues than personal attacks on the name someone chose to enable them to log in. My mistake. (If this post is not directed at me, my apologies, but what exactly is your point?)

"bligh" & "peace please":

90 tons of flour a day (as reported for Gaza now in the article) for some 1,5 million people works out to 60 grams a day for each - about 1/10 of a loaf of bread. This is quite correctly "enough to survive, not enough to live" or work. Yields about 200 calories - daily need being some ten times that, 2-3 kcal.

Genocide happening on our tvs
- all we do to stop it is say "please"...

bligh I redid the calculations and there is clearly a mistake - 90 is not 1% of 680000 (it is 1% of 9000). I agree, bad editing, but doesn't invalidate the rest of the article.

Bligh, I googled the issue of how much flour was needed in Gaza on a daily basis and the figures I found said 800 tons of flour. Here's the link to a UN document:
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/GazaSitRep_24-30July.pdf

Seems like the author made a mistake, perhaps a typo or calculation error. I am not sure that one should then discount the rest of the article because of that. The points seem to be valid even if they got the numbers wrong. Personally, I think the issue of mass starvation is more important than this error and I am not sure why, since you found the numbers to be so troubling, you didn't google it yourself.

Stubine, bligh, frog, the zionists nazi love childs are in flourish today. Was that Megaphone software blaring on you PC?

GO away you racists pricks!

The Jews are doing to Palestinians exactly like what the Nazi did to the Jews; but to the Jewish defenders of the Warsaw Ghettoes, they are lauded as the Heroes of Warsaw, but to today's Palestinians you in the west call them terrorists !

What the Jews are doing to the Palestinians is far worst than what the Nazis did to them, because this insane occupation of Palestine has gone on for more than 50 years, the longest military occupation in all of history and the most brutal; all supported by the criminal USA.

ONE ELEMENT OF THIS BRUTAL OCCUPATION STILL ELUDES ME, "WHY IS IT LEGAL FOR THE USA TO SUPPLY ARMS AND LIMITLESS AMOUNT OF MONEY TO ISRAEL, BUT IT IS ILLEGAL FOR OTHERS TO HELP THE PALESTINIANS WITH ANY ASSISTANCE AT ALL, EITHER IN ARMS OR MONEY ? Why is Egypt NOT DOING THE RIGHT THING FOR THEM TO GIVE ASSISSTANCE TO THEIR MUSLIM BROTHERS BY HAVING THE PALESTINIANS RESPITE FROM THE usa LED STRANGULATION OF GAZA ?

How can the west justify the theft by the Jews of Arab lands and this criminal project is endorsed by the USA & the west; while the true owners are "jailed in gaza " and why is the clown Mahmoud Abbas allowed to FRONT UP AS THE PUPPET OF THE JEWS ? Why are the Jews & the USA supported by the west allowed to betray his fellow Palestinians; a total sell out of the interests of his people.

Bring peace to the middle east give Arizona to the Zionist.

680,000 TONS of flour a day to feed 1.5 million people? This works out to somewhere around 900 pounds of flour per person per day. That is a hell of a lot of bread. Couldn't be a typo as the author goes on to state correctly that 90 tons a day would be a 99% reduction for this figure. Seems like sloppy reporting on a serious situation.

Here is a link to another brilliant article by Arundhati Roy. She is so courageous and unrelenting and follows in the tradition of other strong-willed Indian women !

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080204&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid=1

I do not want to hijack this thread but this article is a good read because she talks of genocide and extermination of 'peoples' and it seems its relevant to the topic on hand.

Hi Sara,

Sara do you know the name "Arundhati Roy". Sure you do. As you mentioned her at your talk at the K School some months ago. God Bless both of you.

Don

zoya - "Give it a rest, stubine. Your argument was worn out and discredited long ago. Do you think somehow that most of the world doesn't regard a few dead Israelis as merely collateral damage in the Palestinians' struggle for freedom and justice? Grow up."

Actually, the argument is very good and many of us progressives DO believe in it. Palestine is not always right any more than Israel is always right. As for dead, do really think that Europe, America and China care if there are dead Israelis or Palestinians? They are the only powers that matter. No one cares what the "world" thinks if they aren't European, American or Chinese because outside of the big three, there is NO power what-so-ever.

thera January 26th, 2008 1:21 pm
Livni the daughter of members of the Irgun, helped pass a bill that bans animal abuse. ..
So she can't be all bad... can she???

Palestinians have been given only 2 choices-
1/ to have a West Bank quisling to Israel and be persecuted daily at multiple roadblocks, having their West Bank land stolen (as currently underway now in East Jerusalem) to make room for people of only one religion/race. Or
2/ their democratically-elected leaders of Gaza are imprisoned by Israel, while Gaza is under perpetual siege, and Palestinian children, if not shot in their father's arms (like Mohammed al-Dura, Sept 2000) or blown-up while picnicking on a Gazan beach (like the family of Huda Ghalia, June 2006), will die or have stunted growth (Haaretz, 11/4/2007) from lack of food and medicines.

There is no 'peace process', only the grand Zionist 'colonization process'. Face it Stubine, you are a racist into ethnic cleaning, antithetical to the tradition of great Jewish thinkers.

Over half of all UN veto's since the inception of the UN have been by the US on 'behalf' of izrael.

**** ZioNazism. Viva la Palestine!

The jackbooted "chosen" people...I'll say something hard to hear, hey Stubine, wanna know why Hitler incinerated so many Jews, because after WW1 when Germany was in ruin they descended on that hell with capitol, mobile money, like carpetbaggers after the civil war, and bought property for pennies on the dollar then evicted the former tenants and lived in their homes. Like Palestine. bred a lot of hate. But wait, throughout history this poor wonderful chosen people has been so persecuted, ou effin vey. Look at Palestine, the death and misery, that is courtesy of the JEWISH state. The new NAZI DEATH MACHINE IS ISRAEL! And Gaza is Dauchau. **** izrael

May it burn. May it burn. May it burn. And it will.

Remember that at the end of 1948, after the UN had created Israel out of confiscated Palestinian homeland, the General Assembly passed Resolution 194, affirming the right of Palestinian refugees from the 1947-48 war to return to their homes and receive compensation for any losses. When Israel joined the UN in 1949, its membership (Resolution 273) was made contingent on its acceptance of the obligations imposed by earlier resolutions, including 194.

Anyway, since January 1 of 2008, nearly 80 Palestinians have been killed and 293 injured by Israeli occupation forces, while less than 10 Israelis were injured by the -- what -- 150 Qassam home-made rockets launched from Gaza.

Israel is a state created by an anti-Semitic West in the aftermath of WWII (my god! we don't want all those homeless, penniless Jews coming HERE!"). It was created by confiscating the land of Palestinians AFTER a campaign of Zionist terror, culminating in the bombing of the King David Hotel, by Menachem Begin and his Irgun "terrorists." (You know the saying? One person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter, right?) 91 people (almost entirely civilian -- British secretariat and hotel staff: 28 Brits, 41 Arabs, 17 Jews, and 5 "Others") were killed and 45 injured. For decades the bombing held the dubious honor of being the world's deadliest terror attack. (A record only touted by those historians who don't consider aerial bombings of civilian populations (Hiroshima, Dresden, Hanoi, ad nauseum) as "terror" because it was done by a victorious nation-state.)

My point rsterling1 is that I agree with you entirely Israel should pull out of Gaza economically and militarily. What makes me sick to my stomach is the fact they won't pull out militarily and they pass the costs of the occupation onto other Arabs. Actually we Americans pay for the military portion. Its outrageous what Israel gets away with in Palestine and in Washington, DC.

The comment of Livni's that it is "inconceivable that life in Gaza continues to be normal" is a monument of insensitivity and reflects the overall attitude of Israeli society to the Palestinians: they're just a bunch of ragheads with no rights that an Israeli, or a member of the U.S. Congress, needs respect. But what the Palestinians have undergone in Gaza for the past two years is what Israel regards as "normal."

The palestinians are blood thirsty vicious killers who are out to kill jews just because they love to do it.

What I cant figure out is how come, then, that more palestinians have been killed than jews in this vicious struggle.

Or is there some thing that i am not seeing.

Give it a rest, stubine. Your argument was worn out and discredited long ago. Do you think somehow that most of the world doesn't regard a few dead Israelis as merely collateral damage in the Palestinians' struggle for freedom and justice? Grow up.

I happened upon this website. Very interesting articles. Coming from India we always had great respect for Yassir Arafat. My parents were supporters of Indira Gandhi and she always supported Palestinian causes. I remember the frequent trips Yassir Arafat used to make to India and meet with Indira Gandhi. It seems nothing much has changed in 30 years.

Unfortunately Israel seems to have completely squandered its goodwill in the world community. All the sympathies the world had for Jewish people who have suffered a lot in the past, has vanished it seems now. Why are the Israelis committing such terrible atrocities in Gaza ? I am shocked and saddenned that the United States supports this treatment. This looks more like ethnic cleansing or 'extermination' rather than a response to Hamas.

Whether Israel or the U.S. likes it or not, Hamas was democratically elected. Whether the world likes it or not so was George Bush ! We need to accept the democratic process and we also need to make sure we do not commit such inhuman crimes (blockades etc) against innocent civilians.

If the United Nations cannot act against this then the United Nations as an organisation has lost its validity and needs to be disbanded. the Indian Govt recently seems to have a lot more contacts with Israel. They should hopefully use their influence (if any ) with Israel and try to bring about a peaceful resolution to this conflict. I do sound naive (forgive me), but without hope, life for the Palestiians it seems, is not worth living.

I think it would be very good if Israel did really "depart" Gaza. As eloquently documented in the masterpiece "Drinking the Sea at Gaza, Days and Nights in a Land Under Siege", Israel has only taken from Gaza ... never given a thing. All of the humanitarian supplies which come in are paid for by Europe and others, not Israel. Same thing for the diesel and gas. Let all these supplies come in through Egypt and let the Palestinians govern themselves. Being able to get raw materials, currently stopped completely by Israel's 'hermetic closure', industry in Gaza can recover. Being able to import and export through Rafah and the Gaza port, Palestinians in Gaza could start to send their products and rebuild the economy. Will Israel (or the US) allow this to happen? Very unlikely because a genuinely free Gaza would be an example and inspiration to Palestinians in the West Bank.

Israel wants to continue to militarily occupy Gaza while not having to spend its American taxdollars funding on sewage, water, electricity etc. Israel wants to outsource the costs of its occupation to the Egyptians and have them fund these things. Please educate others about this nasty little plan of the Israelis.

Israel's Zionist leaders, supported by American Zionists now including the Bush administration and other Zionists like Tony Blair, has carried out a brutal, illegal and immoral occupation of Palestine for half a century. Is it surprising that a resistance movement would develop? Is it surprising that members of this movement would use the only weapons available to them, homemade rockets that can't be aimed, to resist both the occupation and the cutoff of food, oil, electricity and other necessary goods?

Israel insists its almost daily or nightly attacks on Gaza using the armored tanks fighter planes we pay for amount only to "self defense" against the rockets. Sure.

In the 19th century, our army hunted down and killed Native Americans who we labeled Red Savages to justify our war against them. In truth, we wanted their land. As Israel wants all of Palestine, Lebanon's Litani River, more water and who knows what all, which is why we and they must label the resisters "terrorists."

There can be peace in the Middle East, but only if Israel accepts the Arab plan for peace in exchange for a guarantee that it will not be attacked.

Stonetool wrote"

"I wonder what would happen in the US if militant groups in Tiajuana began firing missiles into SanDiego and LA?"

A few things you forgot to mention:

1. The correct analogy would be US had laid a years-long, total siege over all of Baja California Norte (Baja)- anyone trying to escape by desert or by water is shot on sight. Oh, but instead of being barren desert, it has a population of 1.5 million.

2. With its people reduced to near-starvation, the democratically-elected government of Baja in a desperate move, authorizes armed groups to lob crude, ineffective, zero-accuracy homemade rockets toward San Diego, nearly all falling helplessly in desert or farm fields. (A person needs to be directly struck by one to be killed or injured - so the fatality risk is less than, say, being in the woods during buck season)

3. The Government of Baja repeatedly offers an immediately end to hostilities if the US would simply lift it's siege.

4. The US responds to these offers by tightening the siege and assassinating their political leaders along with a lot of innocents with predator drones and hellfire missles.

Collective punishment is wrong. Bush supported the elections in Palestine and tried to send aid to Fatah so they could buy votes. When the "wrong" people won the election, Bush supported a policy of collective punishment. That is not the type of democracy we should be exporting.

Clearly, the West is prepared to kill all the Palestinians there are to support the artificial state which it imposed on the region in the twentieth century. "Accept the two state solution, or starve!" Yes, democracies are obviously civilised and humane and never impose their policies by force rather than rational discussion and negotiation. Now that the super-subtle Bliar is running the show, expect words to get ever more slippery and vacious.

Stonetool

Your analysis and hypothesis of this situation is completely biased and wrong. The very existense of Israel is dubious to say the least. If Israel can lay any claim to the land they currently occupy (i.e. Palestine) then my family can lay claim to a majority of Paris and New York as well.

Assuming my government (U.S.) arms my family to the teeth with nuclear weapons and the most sophisticated armaments im sure we can take over Paris and then act completely surprised with righteous indignation if they resist !! I mean how dare these stupid dogs (Parisians) even attempt to take my land away from me and swear to destroy my family especially after all the things the Germans did to me !!

As inane as this sounds, your argument falls along these lines. Maybe the 'camel and tent' story is more accurate !!