I did not realize that they allowed inmates of insane asylums to have access to the internet. What a bunch of crazy wackos you people are. If you dislike this country so much, you have my sincere invitation to leave. You are a bunch of anti-american creeps and should be either deported or put in front of a firing squad. DEAL WITH IT.

http://www.trafford.com/07-2440

Dear Sirs and Mesdames,
This subject, in my mind, is the most immediate most urgent and serious matter confronting the Human Race. Despite the fact that many great minds, philosophers, politicians, academics and economists, have all created eminent careers based on their knowledge and understanding of how free enterprise, national economies and the human race interact, they have all failed to admit the obvious. It is glaringly obvious that we have large swathes of the human race that do not have access to money; it is that simple.
Therefore we need a system of economy that literally accommodates the needs and aspirations of every human being. A system that will not rely on taxing others' in order to provide all the multifarious forms of infrastructures, as well as our human and social obligations. A system of taxation in which the haves are continually being pressured to claw back those taxes from the have-nots. We must face the fact, once and for all; this system can never provide all human needs and infrastructures.
We have allowed right-wing ideology to dictate the terms and even if or when large swathes of populations may be fed and housed or have health needs addressed. We tolerate the fact that we have millions of working poor who will never earn enough to meet all of life's basic costs. Many of these are struggling to raise families the bedrock of our future. Those who work lead the most precarious of lives.
Precarious, because their work and income has become the plaything of corporate power, which moves production to lower waged economies. This makes the executives and the shareholders richer but at the cost of the misery they leave behind. Wages go down, but not prices, or costs of living, and the formerly free "social wage entitlements" are removed.
This is the "rationalized" world directed by Corporate Power and implemented by our Governments, the world of "user pays".
Take it or suffer the consequences. The Government calls this "work choices". Hear the Corporate applause? The consequences are total destitution for some; they could buy none of life's essential services.
Complete and total destitution for many unless they work, no shelter, no food, no health care, and no education, none of life's necessities.
So we need a system, which provides equal opportunity and care for all, overlaid with free enterprise. At the same time we can put in place a fair and equitable industrial relations system that eliminates employer employee antagonisms.
Our democracy is in serious trouble. Rich people and corporations channel funds into political parties in order to achieve their own commercial or ideological ends cleverly bypassing democratic inputs. It is happening in all democracies but that does not make it "worlds best practice" or "right". We can correct that quite easily. We make so-called free trade agreements under which corporations are exempted from government regulation that control workers rights, pay and working conditions. Is this democracy, is this really necessary, should corporations have such unbridled power, where will it end?
Introduction of The Universal Economy will immediately and substantially impact and improve such questions as Poverty, provision of universal education, health care, pensions, unemployment, housing and all public infrastructure (roads bridges schools hospitals etc). None of this will require the imposition of taxation.
The concept of The Universal Economy will be easy to introduce, because it benefits everyone, everyone will want it to work. It will be hardest to implement in third world nations, not impossible, just slower to implement. It will kick start economies wherever it is introduced.
This is a concept for the twenty-first century. Put to one side traditional thought processes and embedded conventions see only the greater-good and benefit of mankind then you will support this enterprise with the open heart and mind it deserves. Adopt this concept for the good of humanity.
Give your support, not money.

Yours Faithfully, THOMAS W ADAMS.

Run for a seat in Congress Grandma. They have a "fairly decent" ENTIRE FAMILY health insurance plan. Not a bad retirement plan too.

Well, guess that was a poor choice of words, saying practically worthless, in respect to medicare. What I mean by that is, many people cannot afford the supplemental insurance and there is no dental or eye glasses, or hearing aid care payments by medicaid or medicare, no prescription drug benefits.

I have seen cases where medicare will not pay for everything and the patients end up in bankruptcy due to medical bills. I have seen where the medical bills were $4,100 and medicare allowed $800 and the patient was billed for the remainder annd didn't have it to pay or else live in the street. Many doctors will not take patients who only have medicare. But practically worthless was a poor choice of words. My point was, we now have to claim that SS deduction for our medicare incurance in our annual income.

What a way to bookend a presidency...start with a tax rebate and end with one. I still remember what I did with mine at the beginning of the decade: bought some much-needed computer parts for an upgrade. I did it because I never thought that the bad times would get this bad (as I was 26 at the time and had been working since I was 16, I would say that I didn't have any excuse for my ignorance) but boy, have they ever. I look at the upcoming tax rebate the way I look at John McCain's too-little-too-late victory in South Carolina primary (eight years in the making), like a bad rerun of a stupid drama that would be laughable if it wasn't so insulting.

I take a cold comfort in that, if CNN is any guide, the world markets are agreeing with me on this point. The way they're dropping points on their exchanges today while the Nasdaq is taking the day off to defang one of the greatest radical thinkers of the 20th century (who, for all his documented faults, knew that where America is right now is where it was heading) is a bitter irony indeed.

Kem - You're right about Medicare when you point out that it doesn't pay everything and leaves the person with a big bill - not as big as it would have been but too big for many to pay. I can't speak for Adele, but for myself, the supplemental insurance my husband and I have (and Adele says she does too) goes a long way to cover the balance due after Medicare. Still, Medicare does pay something.

This whole situation is ridiculous - we should have a national health care program like every other civilized nation does. But obviously my priorities are all messed up - I fail to grasp why we need to spend everything on wars and preparation for wars.

To Kem Patrick and Adele the Czech - Kem, I agree with Adele - both my husband and I have benefitted enormously from Medicare - and it does help a lot even if you don't have any other health insurance plan (we do, as Adele says she does too). If everyone in this country had such plans things would be really good. There's no reason that Medicare can't be extended to create a national health system that would serve everyone (and include dental work too).

KEM -- I'm kind of shocked that you referred to Medicare as "practically worthless." In 2007 I had two life-threatening illnesses, got very fine hospital care (and later, visiting-nurse care) all paid for by Medicare and my supplemental policy. Since I had paid my small yearly deductible, I didn't have to lay out a single dollar.

Medicare has also paid for preventive care such as mammograms (and in my case, an ovarian sonogram, a DEXA bone scan, and a CT scan of my coronary arteries). Having no medical insurance for years (my husband and I were self-employed and couldn't afford policies), I find Medicare to be marvelous; you choose your doctor and hospital. And I haven't been turned down for any preventive care my doctor requested.

Paul Bramscher January 20th, 2008 2:24 pm

Lobo Gris,

"I agree — the sad part, though, is that this is about as good as it gets. How many people are going to spend their rebate on 100% Made in the USA products?"

My guess would be between 0 and 5 percent. Very little is made here anymore.

Lobo Gris

Don't hold our breath waiting for the cost of gas or heating fuel to drop much. If it does drop a little, it won't stay there long before it goes back up.

7 years of bush economic policy has really worked well ..
tax cuts for the wealthy, a trillion dollar war in Iraq ( on borrowed money ) has done so much to stimulate this economy and "fix the recession left by clinton"..

This rebate is nothing more than election year voodoo economics. ( and Bush has an MBA from harvard ). 800/1600 for most people ( last i heard you have to pay taxes to get it so they wont ) will mean nothing ( pay a card down or minimally pay for an expense instead of charging it ). If this is to be far reaching than eliminiate the 10 percent bracket and add that to the top bracket.

For those of you thinking of using this to paydown your mortgage dont.. mortgage interest is tax deductible.

His supply side showed last week when he went to the Saudi's to pump more oil to solve the high price of gas.

~Grandma~ This year we don't just pay income tax on the amount we actually received from our social security checks, we also have to pay income tax on the amount deducted for the practically worthless medicare, ___ which is significant. It puts many in a higher income bracket.

As Jan Stienman mentioned, the stimulus package that is being talked about mentions tax "rebates" for tax payers.About 45 million households are close enough to poverty level to pay no income taxes.Self employed poor, under employed ,and homeless poor folks wont see a dime.A one time payout to the most needy with no regard to tax status would be more effective.We could stock up on rice and beans and canned goods,maybe weld up a nice barrel stove if in a rural area.
The last time they sent out a few hundred bucks to folks I was too poor to qualify,as were the most needy.For most working poor lets see; $800.00 a tank of fuel oil,maybe 4 cords of firewood,or a month of health (sick)insurance,or ... a bunch of plastic crap from Mall Wart? I like Rebel Farmers idea,plant a huge garden and fence it in well,join a C.S.A. buy a freezer , canning jars and open pollinated seeds.
I think most folks will just catch up with a few back bills,maybe pay down some plastic. peas out

Hi all - I just read this on another blog (horrors! CNN on Google news) and wonder if anyone here knows anything about this. First I've heard of it -

Here it is -

silverfox

updated January 18, 2008

Now would be a great time to eliminate the Federal Income Tax on Social Security benefits paid to retirees, retroactive to the begining of 2007. Since most retirees don't have tax deductions taken from their monthly benefit check, come tax time in early 2008 they have to beg, borrow or steal to come up with the cash to pay the overdue taxes. That scramble for cash puts an additional crimp of the economy at a time when stimulous is most desperately needed.

Nice article!

No, there is no such thing as a free lunch. And yes, looking at a one time cash infusion ONLY from the perspective of "velocity", the impact is minimal, as you suggest. (And most economists, knowing that the propensity to spend is a function of wealth-Milton Friedman's "permanent income", would also agree, were they not on corporate/top-end payrolls, paid to say otherwise).

However, what you don't give enough weight to is what this does to confidence and economic justice. This depends on seeing the economic impact NOT as pump priming or lack of liquidity, but rather as a readjustment of wealth, with consumers reacting pretty much as you sketch out. Minor initially, but what is at the core of the structural problem. Every since Reagan, we have based economic policy not on science, but on ideology (privatization is good, socialization is bad). Those that try to do their economics ideology free, know that whether a good is social or private, is not something for politicians to decide, but rather is determined by the intrinsic nature of the good itself, depending on whether their is repetition of consumption. An apple is private, since the second eating is of negligible of even negative value, while the second viewing of a movie is not. (Read 2007 Noble Prize in economics, information for the public).

In the attempt to use government as a vehicle for transferring wealth from the general working public to the top one percent of Americans, we have privatized benefits, while socializing the costs, whether in tax breaks for the rich, transferring natural resources at below costs, or tying in health care and schooling to corporate employment. It is THIS injustice which has led to America's inefficiency. Greed is now so egregious that even top enders (and especially their children) can't buy in to a process that is essentially an extension of slavery, in the more disguised form of covert indenture.

If we were to forget about the nonsense of subsidizing investment (if low end consumption is indeed increased, demand creates its own investment- Remember the Henry Ford model of mass production, and workers wages sufficient to purchase the product) and concentrate instead on correcting the theft of the past, this transfer might build the kind of economic justice that encourages the cooperation that builds wealth. Of course this is not enough. After decades of neglect in social investing in social infrastructure, a WPA type program of NON-MARKET INVESTMENT would be the next step. But until we have a national reconciliation here, between workers and the privileged class, we are stymied in moving forward, and cooperating in all pushing the economy in the same direction.

Part of that would also be to come clean with the Cheney energy task force, and open that "plan" up to public view. Using force to "own resources" has been a major "dry hole, with privatized benefits and the general public picking up the costs. Just as slavery finally had to be dealt with, so must we deal with its current manifestation-the use of the military, judicial system, political system, banking system to keep indenture alive. It takes happy, fairly treated workers to take the initiative and responsibility to produce.

Or we could continue with "voodoo" economics, and play make-believe with out ideology, much as the USSR did with its ideological empire building. But then we should not expect different results.

And after spending 2$Trillion dollars in an attempt to steal Near East hydrocarbons and wasting many fine lives, it would be an insult to America and humanity to not fund socially responsible investments at the same level of commitment.

That was my point Rebelnow, what do the vast majority, multi-millions do if a depresion hits?

And Paul B., The lack of birds, inscects and the 2,000 specie of bees, have suffered a dramatic decrease this last year. Check it out, there are several articles in the Common Dreams archives on that issue.

We also now import over 40% of the food we purchase at the supermarkets. Just like most other merchandise now imported for us "rich" American consumers, such as Craftsman tools, Chicago cutlery, Sunbeam, Maytag, etc, lots of our American brand named food, is actually now imported from South America, Mexico or China. If a depression hits, the imports will cease overnight.

There is on average, a two weeks to three supply of food in American warehouses and if a depresion hits, the government WILL seize ALL of it. That's a presidential directive, and they will also control fuel, ammunition and hospitals, health care centers and medicines. Gotta feed the Congress, the very rich, the military and Halliburton's militia FIRST. If you don't think there will be a problem, then don't worry about it and don't prepare for the worst. Maybe instead, learn how to soar like a great big bird. Of course the Ostrich, can only soar, ___ straight down.

Merry Merrill Lynches' misery is far from over, because the Monolines are crashing. The Monolines are the firewall of last resort. They under-wrote insurance on Bank's investments, but are going down like lead ballons because they were grossly under-funded. Why? because NO-ONE thought it could ever come to this…that they would ever have to actually cover the staggering number of failing banks and brokerages that are hemorrhaging billions. The Bush administration's IGNORANT HUBRIS was the perfect Kerosene to mix with the Wall Street Fertilizer of GREED to make a bomb large enough to bring down the world economy A LA THE WORLD TRADE CENTERS…..AIN'T BLIND JUSTICE AN IRONIC BITCH????????

Bush Fiscal policy = Kerosene
Wall Street Greed = Fertilizer
Resulting Explosion = US & World Economy
You wanna' talk terrorism??????
You wanna' talk what REALLY damages America's National Security??????
WELL….I TELL YOU WHAT……GO TALK TO THE US CONGRESS……THEY DROVE THE GODDAMN GET-AWAY CAR.

Major problems around the world can be markedly improved, usually, with about 6 billion dollars. That is one month of war. With that money, each month, a major world problem could be addressed. In one year, 12 problems, the world would be markedly improved. If you want to be conservative, make it 12 billion a month and two years. Incidentally, if the US dis this, its power would be enourmously enhanced.

I live in a relatively sleepy town, well a city now, I guess, that is surrounded by massive areas of agriculture. Organic growers are thriving. The bi-weekly farmers markets are abundant with all kinds of local goods. There is fresh water coming down out of the mountains. My library has more books than I will ever be able to read. I've been a builder so I have lots of tools and hands on knowledge. I feel somewhat prepared for a collapse.

Unfortunately I have family in NYC, Boston, San Francisco and Florida and when I visit those places I start to freak out. What the hell are these millions of people going to do if things get bad? It's quite frightening actually.

Lobo Gris,

I agree -- the sad part, though, is that this is about as good as it gets. How many people are going to spend their rebate on 100% Made in the USA products? Even something as noble as paying off existing bills & debts isn't going to help out the crux of the problem, since Citibank, Chase, JP Morgan, etc. would benefit -- but they're really part of the problem.

I don't see any way out of this mess other than something fairly Draconian.

1. The wealthy should "pay their fair share" as my former senator Wellstone liked to say. We need a very tight progressive income tax curve, to bring the middle-class back from the endangered species list. Robin Hood.
2. Let real estate market tumble -- the sooner the better. Encourage its collapse even. Push it over the edge. So young people can afford to live, raise children on a single income, spend money in more areas than simply servicing their mortgages, think about taking risks, start businesses, have more time to get active in their communities, etc.

Ahhhhh Wellstone, my senator too, we so need him now

Kem,

I'm trying to be proactive rather than alarmist. Food is probably the one thing that we haven't outsourced because fertile land can't be moved. (Though there remains the downward spiral of in-sourcing: slavery, tenant farmers, illegal immigrant workers, loss of family farms due to the dynamic of speculated land prices, over-borrowing, usury and over-taxation, etc.). But our food productivity is excellent.

I didn't notice any decline in my gardens this summer due to issues with bees. I've got an oregano plant (now a small bush), which draws them like a magnet.

A collapse in banking won't hurt the essentials: soil fertility, sunlight, rain, supply of agricultural labor, etc. If we were talking a blight, drought, nuclear disaster, bird flu, real estate racketeering so nobody except Monsanto/etc. could afford to buy farmland, then I can see some cause for concern.

My brother inlaw lives on his inlaws' farm. Discounting the cattle, hay fields, etc. they lay in a vegetable garden around 30x50 feet that produces far more than they can possibly eat. All of the banks in the world could collapse, and the vegetables couldn't care less.

Thanks for clairfying Ken, actually this is a good, almost clean discussion...how things should go, I have tried to dissent with respectiful in other discussions and been run out of the place with some shocking insults- no way to come to agreement. Kem, something about free falling and having a good view seems appealing :)!

Paul Bramscher January 20th, 2008 11:22 am

"Buying Chinese goods WILL stimulate "our" economy. Just do a little exploring of the NYSE."

There is no doubt that buying Chinese will stimulate the NYSE but the economy of Wall Street and Main Street have become two separate things. When people spend their rebate checks in Wall Mart etc. it will certainly boost Wall Mart's etc. profits and their stock price, but if any new workers are hired to produce the goods the new workers will be hired in China, India, etc. But it will be only a temporary spike because when the rebate checks are spent the spending will drop, not increase as it would if Americans were hired to make the goods and they got a continual supply of spending money.

Lobo Gris

You never go overboard bud.

that's OK Kem, thanks for clarifying. You actually got me thinking that maybe I went overboard with my analogy and anger, maybe it's better to be silent sometimes, but not too silent.

Excellent point Lobo Gris.

~Jasoncocobolo~ Don't use a house or a barn roof, that isn't high enough. If you're gonna go out that way, at least have a few seconds of fun, free flight soaring. Try a high rise roof, at least 30 stories. __ Or, perhaps a shotgun and go out with a bang.

Buffalo Ken there for one offered some appropriate facts. We're in big trouble, it is not funny.

Paul Bramscher January 20th, 2008 9:57 am

"NAFTA is a North American trade agreement — and while we may have lost manufacturing jobs to Mexico, we lost the future to Asia (engineering and IT). NAFTA sure didn't help the plight of any North American laborer, but don't attempt to blame it for everything either."

I didn't and I don't blame everything on NAFTA Paul but this was just a post, not a book, which is what it would take to describe everything. NAFTA was the beginning of the acceleration of what had been going on for years before that. Including not only the outsourcing but the insourcing of engineering and other high skill jobs, computer programming etc. through the H1-B program.

Lobo Gris

"I just have one question: do you put mustard or ketchup on silver when you eat it?"

Silver will provide buying power in times when paper money is worthless. Few of us in this age of specialization have the skill sets to become completely self sustaining. Not only will you have to plant your garden but you will have to defend it, so there will be needs. I agree with you Jan that it's time to bail out of the economy and focus on better ways to sustain ourselves.

jasoncocobolo - I can think of two differences off the top of my head:

1. As others have stated the manufacturing base has departed this country. I've seen it first hand in NC as textile and furniture manufacturing facilities have all been closing their doors. To the best of my knowledge, this is unprecedented. The "everyday working Jane & Joe" have been sold out so that the filthy rich can hoard some more.

2. Global warming and ecosystem collapse - this is likewise unprecedented and every day we find out that the models have been underestimating the severity and the timing of the consequences.

I'm holding out some hope that folks in local communities will choose to work together and help each other out for the sake of everyone in the community (this obviously is NOT unprecedented), and this mindset could extend outwards and lead to remarkable and unexpected outcomes. I've also ordered several gardening books because although I've been gardening for several years, I need to improve my techniques, and now is the time to learn. I also know I enjoy playing cards and other board games and this is free and does not involve purchasing anything (except the one-time purchase of the game materials).

Peace,
Ken

P.S. - Playing strategic board games with others is perhaps one of the best learning experiences I've had in my life. You learn and have fun at the same time. When interacting with others, you learn much about diplomacy. In fact, later today I will be playing a game of "Settlers" with my family. I'm looking forward to it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlers_of_Catan

Siouxrose January 19th, 2008 1:40 pm
It's giving crumbs to the poor to provide a smokescreen for all the theft that's underway. When people accept these checks, they are equivalent to "hush" money. Just let the cons run things and they will from time to time throw you a cookie. Ain't that sweet.

Bruce Springsteen has a song called "living proof"
And that is the approach i take to defend my political beliefs. I started out with nothing and worked my ass off to climb the food chain. and i can still remember Bush I's tax rebate. I was working in a warehouse making 18,000 year, and do you know how much I received? an additional .33 per pay check. It was amazing how people around me making more money seemed to be getting alot more back. Go figure.

Well the story continues during the Reagan and Bush tyranny, while i struggled through the 20 and 30 thousand mark, i was owing the IRS appx 3000.00 per year come tax time. Yet again people around me that were making 50-100k a year were celebrating the money they were getting back each year.Go Figure.

Then came the Bill Clinton admin. guess what? in his first year while continuing to struggle I received 800.00 back on taxes. while those making more started complaining because their refunds were considerably less. in his second year i received 1500.00 back, and so it went until by his second term I was still earning in the 40's yet getting up to 3000.00 back while all those making the big bucks started bitching that they had had to pay taxes for the first time in a decade. Imagine that.

Well now times have changed and I am closer to the century mark and guess what I'm back to paying taxes again, the water mark for this Bush must be much higher. I guess you have to be really rich to get money back. Go figure.

That being said i guess it must be rocket science to figure out that in order to stimulate the economy being that 85% of the population are middle class and under, that if people making under 50k were not to pay any taxes whatsoever and had more money and make up the bulk of the economy that they would be able to spend money and stimulate the economy.

Also i would make a luxury tax for automobiles over 30,000, and boats, and yachts, and homes that cost over 1 million. then perhaps "they" might be paying their fair share. It wouldnt stop them from their greed so again just might stimulate the economy. Oh and just to help to irradicate SUV's I would impose one hell of a tax on anyone that purchases one. They should've been banned a long time ago.

Ok, this is not meant to insult anyone, but moreover to educate myself...Are we really saying the sky is falling, or has this happened before and we got through it... While I am too young to remember well, I do recall with the massive hit farming took in the 80s with foreclosures, high interst rates, etc, then a boom in the 90s with tech only to go back a bit later with what we are seeing right now. Furthermore, the mid-1970s saw a nasty little hit on the economy, that basically fried Jimmy Carter's presidency. So considering that our economy and economics punto is basically a series of ebbs and flows (with a war inbewteen them normally) but over time going up, my question is: How is this time any different from any recessions we have been through since the depression?

I need to know if I have to start looking for a roof to jump from.

If and when this "rebate" shows up, I only have one plan on what to do with it:

Sign it over to the IRS and mail it in.

It's the only logical step.

Pop Quiz:
(1) Who robbed the rich and gave to the poor?:
(A) Robin Hood
(B) Hugo Chavez
(C) Franklin Roosvelt
(2) Who robbed from the poor and gave to the rich?:
(A) George Bush
(B) George Bush
(C) George Bush

~Rebel Now~. Oops, I put your name there instead of the car salesman in the post above yours. __ please excuse me for stupidity.

PAUL B. If everyone planted a garden this spring, and the depression hits this spring, it ain't gonna do much good. The supermarkets will be sold out in less than a week and won't be re-stocked. Then consider this. We have a full acre garden and fruit orchard. We always canned, froze and dried enough fruit and vegetables to last through the winter and spring. We still had to buy a lot of other food basics, flour, yeast, oil, butter etc.

This last year we didn't have much of anything from the garden, there were no pollinating inscects, butterflies or humming birds. We canned five quarts total, froze or dried nothing and had nothing to give away to friends and neighbors. That was a nation wide problem for almost every area of the country.

Then Paul, you tell the multi-millions who live in apartments across the country, or the people who work two jobs just to get by, or the elderly, to go find an empty lot and plant a garden. Gardening for fun is not the same as gardening for your winter larder, it really isn't simple, inexpensive, or easy. Gardening is a lot of work, a lot of water and money and a late frost, rodents, plant diseases and grasshoppers etc, can spoil a garden real quick.

It's EASY for someone to SAY, "Plant a garden and grow our own food". Yeah sure. It's also easy for someone to say, "Build your own fishing boat or airplane". Saying and doing are two different subjects. If you and your family wish to survive any depression that hits, you better be well prepared for a tough row to hoe.

How about a rebate burning?

We get the check from Boy George, go to the bank to cash it in, and then we get together with other like-minded folks and we organize a rebate burning: we all take our cash from our rebates, throw it in a pile, and set it on fire.

Naturally, we make sure some horror-stricken media person is there to get the whole thing on the evening news for Boy George to see.

How about 'outsourcing' the United States Congress and The White House to China ? We could save millions of dollars that we borrow from China every year to pay for 'non-representative government' in Washington,D.C.

And let's tell stockholders to rid the excessively overpaid pencil-pushers, I mean corporate executives, and outsource their jobs to the up and coming Chinese MBA grads who would work for a tiny fraction of what our execs work for. Just think, larger dividend checks for the shareholders and more money in the company account.

In this day and age, we certainly have to be 'competitive' in the 'global economy', don't we?

Great description of life in the middle class. In the last 2 years I have lost half my income, had to sell my house and recently let go of my health care just to continue to make ends meet.

I'll bet that 90% buy new digital tvs.... timing is perfect, no? Dovetails nicely w/ media consolidation and a centralized message.

Didn't see anyone here talk about buying a bicycle, and tune up parts, kits, comfortable thick-soled walking shoes, and durable clothing.

Ironic to hear that the author has a variable rate home equity line: while varying rate is spooky, they will be dropping precipitously by month end; he could play the rate game....

If anyone out there has home-mortgage related debt tied to variable rates, at least a conservative 80% or less debt to equity, and is planning on being in their home for at least the next five years, they should take a serious look at refinancing into a long term 30 year mortgage..... rates are at 5.625 damned near a historic low...as of Friday 1/18.

If the whole deal goes into the crapper, do it when rates his 2%. If they go up, you win.

Then, tighten the belt, start to ween yourself from the "mainstream" economy, practice the five R's (refuse, reduce, re-use, renew, and recycle).

Finally, if anyone out there is looking for a worthy occupation for the next six months: start a non-profit fund for reparations to the Iraqi people. We could all send our refunds to the fund, and maybe start to bandage up our global reputation...not the reputation of our government, but that of the broad swath of what I still believe to be by and large a very good people.

Buying Chinese goods WILL stimulate "our" economy. Just do a little exploring of the NYSE. What would Best Buy, Walmart, Target, Apple, Intel, and a large number of the other Fortune-500's be today without the Chinese?

Now if you wish to argue that these companies are increasingly less American, I'd agree with that. But so long as we consider them "American", apparently it does help the "American" economy to buy Chinese.

What a great idea! Let's borrow money from China for rebates so that we can all buy more cheap plastic crap from China! Since we no longer produce much, spending a rebate won't do much to stimulate OUR economy, but it will probably be great for China's.

Rebel Farmer January 20th, 2008 10:41 am

"Gail: Please put up that link again to Tsunami Part II that you did the other day. It was really informative and I think the rest of us could benefit."

Here it is:
http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/engdahl/2008/0116.html

Gail: Please put up that link again to Tsunami Part II that you did the other day. It was really informative and I think the rest of us could benefit.

Lobo: Your post was great. Made a lot of sense.

Jan Steinman

Right on! I took a quick glance at your site and liked what I saw. Food, water, timber, on land owned by the folks living on it.

Preston Digitator

Perfectly stated!

Tally, as in TALLY-BAN

They have destroyed the Constitution of the United States

They have destroyed the judicial system

They have destroyed the mortgage industry

They have destroyed the U.S. economy

They have destroyed the world economy

THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION IS THE GREATEST THREAT TO NATIONAL SECURITY

THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION IS THE BEST WEAPON THE TALABAN HAS

Lobo Gris,

NAFTA is a North American trade agreement -- and while we may have lost manufacturing jobs to Mexico, we lost the future to Asia (engineering and IT). This has been a long time coming, at least since Nixon played the "China card", warming up to Mao in order to prevent a Sino-Soviet bloc. And perhaps earlier, since post-WWII, with the growing import of Japanese goods. NAFTA sure didn't help the plight of any North American laborer, but don't attempt to blame it for everything either.

Designing iPods, televisions, computers, electronics in general, etc. is 21st century work. And it's largely been farmed out to Asia. In addition to the lost jobs, we're losing a competitive edge as a nation, our brains are withering. I get the feeling that our corporations are increasingly run by clueless inbred yes-men behind closed doors. They're a one-trick pony also: "If it's too expensive, outsource it." I'd be shocked if there's a bona fide engineer allowed anywhere near the inner-circle in most places.

Trillions for the Super Rich!
and a
Pittance for the Poor.
Too little , too late.
He is bribing us!
Trying to shore up support before the November elections with even more deficit spending.
More Voodoo economics from The Cor'pirate' Zombies!
They are worried because the phony voting machine trick is finally petering out.
Wrong way Bush's
Seven years of mismanagement and looting has taken its toll!
The Titanic is sinking with a Chimp at the helm.
How appropriate?
Reagan started it and
Bonzo is finishing it!
The damage is done.
Brace yourselves.
Get in your life boats now!
The Corpirate Stupid State is going down.
Big time!
The Corpirate Zombies
Dead Eye and the Shrub
Would love to take you with them!
With all the pain and none of the gain.
Sorry!
Two roads diverged when the 2000 election was stolen.
They took the path of greed and corruption and
We took the other.
Of peace, patience, brotherly love, helpfulness, true compassion and cooperation.
Self reliance and self sufficiency is the key!
Begin at home.
In your own back yards and communities.
Victory gardens.
Green energy!
Conserve and create.
Utopia is where you make it!
Start in your own hearts, souls and backyards first.
Sow the seeds of faith and
Reap the rewards!
Survive and prosper.

I am so sick of Republican's and their 'trickle down' theory that didn't work when Ronald Reagan tried it 25 years ago. That's all this tax rebate scam is more useless Republicanism that will create a bigger mess. That's going to add to the national debt. I am sure glad this bunch isn't running my household. I would be in the poor house over night! What they know about economic matter's is non-existent. That's one more reason I stopped voting Republican in the 80's it was the same kind of economic mess after Reagan. I know enough about money to know you don't keep adding to the debt and expect to help the end results. You stop the outrageous spend on useless items like war you can't afford! That would do wonders for the national debt. The national debt is the reason we are in the financial mess we are in today. We have had 7 years of outrageous Republican spending that has brought us to this point. They have thrown money away like it grew on trees. At the expense of our infrastructure that's falling apart, cities that are crumbling and a economy that's in shambles.

"There is a solution, though. How about if they end the war in Iraq and bring all the troops home. The government will save several hundred billion dollars a year that's being spent overseas blowing things up — and that is helping to depress the dollar and raise our tax bills."

South Carolina voters recently decided that John McCain should be our next president. This vote took place after McCain told an audience in NH that he had no problem with the U.S. being in Iraq for the "next 100 years". In addition, McCain admitted that he doesn't know much about economics.

Imagine what's going to happen to this country if John McCain becomes our next president: War for the "next hundred years" and "permanent(Bush)tax cuts" to the wealthy who have a wide variety of "tax havens" to choose from.

Just what we need - another war monger who doesn't know much about economics.

What you said, Frank. Add an 'Up against the wall' policy for all those who got money by murdering children.

Paul Bramscher wrote: "... we probably needn't worry much about food: it's one of the few industries we seem to still be good at... we are blessed with some very fertile country."

Paul, do you really understand where our food comes from?

First off, the US is a net imported of food.

The lauded "green revolution" should actually be called the "brown revolution," because modern agriculture is pretty much the application of non-renewable fossil fuel to produce food. Each calorie of food you eat has come to you by way of ten calories of fossil fuel -- more like 100 for heavily processed food.

Has anyone noticed the price of a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk lately? Neither has the government, which removes food and energy prices from the mix before calculating the core inflation rate. So if you're income is indexed to the rate of inflation somehow, forget about eating or driving! But hey, it's the government; it's their job to lie to us.

Petroleum production peaked in May 2005, at around 84 million barrels a day. It's been on an unsteady plateau since then, and soon, the amount of petroleum available will start to decline by 5% or more annually. Combined with a foolhardy emphasis on ethanol fuel, look for food prices to shoot through the roof.

There is an orderly way through this mess, and it doesn't involve sending every taxpayer $800. Our energy use must decline at the same rate that production does. It's called the Energy Depletion Protocol. If we all agree to voluntarily get on a program that will reduce our energy dependence at the same rate at which energy production falls, supply will meet demand and there won't be any bread riots. If Cuba did it, why can't the US?

Well, because we've been told by our leaders that the American life-style in non-negotiable. So look forward to bread riots instead, as nature imposes on us what we are to weak to impose on ourselves.

"... my strategy is to cut my expenses down as low as possible, and build a nest-egg for a hobby farm somewhere scenic. With any luck, I'll have enough saved up within a decade to just about purchase it outright."

Good luck! I don't think you have a decade. But cutting expenses, paying off debt, and saving money is certainly a great idea. Once upon a time, most people lived like that.

And don't think "buying a hobby farm" is going to provide your bacon unless you put some effort into figuring out how to do it. I think a lot of people will starve on "hobby farms," unless they get some help learning how to grow food. Developing web sites does not make you a farmer! Nor does reading a seed catalog enable you to grow food any more than reading the Bible guarantees you a spot in heaven, nor does owning some tools make you a mechanic:

"As for car trouble, go to Sears and invest in some tools."

Paul, I think it's great that you're talented enough to figure out how to fix a car door lock. But this advice doesn't work for a lot of people who lack your talent.

I'd say before "investing in some tools," people should invest in knowledge, perhaps taking an adult education course in auto mechanics. That might save them a bundle of money on purchasing the wrong tools!

Doom n Gloom wrote:"It might be smart to take the rebate and invest in some silver coins while the U.S. Dollar is still worth something."

I just have one question: do you put mustard or ketchup on silver when you eat it?

If you have any money to invest, join with like-minded people and buy productive farmland. Do it debt-free. Then start learning how to grow food. Then at least you won't starve.

Thanks coco

Lobo Gris

LOBO GRIS

even to me that looks like a very sound analysis.

IPD probably sells a central door lock relay for your '93, providing that it's a 240 without a security alarm. Otherwise, I'm going to sell everything I own and move to Borneo. You want my old Volvo?

The future of US children is one of a lower standard of living and working for the Chinese. Foreigners will control key positions and eventually the government. For all I know, this could be a good thing.

It's all real simple. In days past when we had a manufacturing base companies would lay people off when a recession hit. (due most of the time because the public went too far in debt and didn't have anymore money to spend). At that time a tax rebate would work because people would spend it buying things again. When they did the companies that had laid off workers needed to increase production to meet the demand so they called the workers back from layoff and/or hired new people. As they did that then all the people that they put to work or back to work would have money to spend too. It would feed on itself and before you knew it we would be out of recession.

The problem now is that the Government starting with the Democrats Daniel when they passed NAFTA eliminated manufacturing from the economy, shipping it to low wage non regulated areas of the world. The idea being that it would put people to work in other parts of the world and then they would have money to spend buying our products. The flaw was that companies are not social organizations. The exist only to make a profit and increase shareholder value. When they quickly found that there was no need to raise wages in Mexico, the Carribean basin, India, China etc. they didn't and the workers there never reached the point where they could buy our goods. So what did they do, well the companies shipped the goods right back to American workers that could afford to buy them. I hope by this point that everyone can see that this is not a sustainable practice. Eventually so many jobs will be shipped out and the wages in service sector so low that there won't be anymore consumers anywhere. (Except for the very rich who got rich as shareholders of the companies that took away the jobs and sold back the goods to those who were still working).

The bottom line is that now when the rebate check comes and people go out and spend it they will be boosting demand in China, India, Mexico, and the Carribean Basin etc. but not here in the U.S. No companies will need to put anyone to work to meet the demand created in the U.S. There will be no new jobs in the U.S. and the spending money will run out when the rebate check does. So there will be no end to the recession which is really a Depression because Recessions are temporary.

BTW cutting defense spending, calling troops troops home etc. won't prevent the above from happening since it provides no stimulus for the economy. It needs to be done but it won't stop the Depression that is coming.

Lobo Gris

army brat, it is you who sounds ignorant. These are basic things, most people here know them. They constitute ways to postpone the inevitable which is the end of the free ride the US has been getting. Also, exploitation of other countries, and America's coercive powers aren't what they used to be. Therefore the US will be poorer. The rich will protect their wealth thrugh acquisitions abroad, etc. and everyone who can't will pay the bill.

You invite your children to dinner, you wine and dine them, then slip out the door leaving them with the bill.

One has to wonder –

With the Iraq War being a third rail for Republicans – no doubt about who started it – they need to change the subject. Soon.

They have a lot of support from the corporatocracy, including brokers and the banking industry, which has made huge profits in the last 7 years from tax cuts and war spending (corporate welfare). And considerable control over the mainstream media.

Their backers have a chance to make even more money by selling short and driving the market down, while shifting the country's focus from the War to the economy. (A smart investment - who's going to prosecute them for manipulating the market ?)

Institute a "new " economic policy - give a few bucks back to the poor and middle class (just in time for the elections), while passing the bill on to future generations. And get new tax cuts passed if they're really lucky (to stimulate the economy, of course).

Then, come late summer, reinvest the money made selling short back in the market and drive it back up a little. Problem solved (economy improving; war forgotten). They're heroes.

Just a thought.

Got Metta?
(It's a question, not a statement)

MiMiCcS - You're the only one in this bunch with a clue - Volker indeed. All these whiners just don't know what the deal really is about - and they think they live in a 'free' country. Ha! How did they get that silly illusion? Elections are the 'circus' part...

Does anyone here know anything about Bretton-Woods? The gold standard? How about Freud's sleazy cousin and his Rockefeller counterparts? Is everyone that ignorant?

"When the people find they can vote themselves
money, that will herald the end of the republic." -- Benjamin Franklin

Offer the people money and they wil cheer every time. If even 50% of the people returned the money, a powerful statement of lack of confidence in the government would be made and resonate all over the world.

Kem,

There is always stealth farming. Find some plot of unused/vacant land and lay in your own crop. If I recall, old Steinbeck even mentioned this. But we probably needn't worry much about food: it's one of the few industries we seem to still be good at (though it's built somewhat on illegal/migrant labor). By its very nature, you can't outsource fertile soil, freshwater for irrigation, etc. It is an innately local activity when you get right down to it, and we are blessed with some very fertile country.

Dave Lindorff,

Good premises. But perhaps buying cheap foreign crap actually will help out "our" economy.

The "American" company stock which relies on sweatshop/communist labor, the Big Box retailer which sells 75-90% imported goods, the cashier that makes $7-8/hour. So in a sad sense, there is a vestigial "American" economy that might benefit from blowing our rebate on foreign goods.

But my strategy is to cut my expenses down as low as possible, and build a nest-egg for a hobby farm somewhere scenic. With any luck, I'll have enough saved up within a decade to just about purchase it outright. But it'll be crapshoot to see whether land prices fall faster than the dollar, or vice-versa.

As for car trouble, go to Sears and invest in some tools. I had a busted door mechanism on a '79 Impala once. I took apart the door and pulled out the fist-sized unit inside. When I learned what the dealer was going to charge me I took the thing to a boat/propeller shop. I had the guy weld the damned unit back together for $10-20 and re-installed it. Something similar happened with my snowblower:

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~brams006/snowthrower.html

In fact, I may just buy myself a mig welder one of these days...

If the Fed monetizes the 100 billion the government will have to borrow to give money away, that will theoretically increase the money supply by 1 trillion by creating 1 trillion more debt. They will probably make the loans to insolvent banks and is probably the main reason for the handout.

Frankly, they should hand out 1 trillion in greenbacks issued directly by government and not the Fed (18,000 for each household, regardless of how much tax they pay or do not pay) and not allow the greenbacks to be monetized. This would not be inflationary or increase the debt.

There is plenty of money already in the economy. The problem is it is in the hands of a few who invest it in non-productive financial instruments of mass destruction like subprime MBS, CDS, CDO, hedge funds, derviatives rather than building up businesses that produce something and create good paying jobs. The bottom 90% have inadequate funds to maintain the living standards of the previous generation, and so they borrow to live in the same fashion. They cant, because 30 years ago there were good paying jobs with benefits like health insurance and pensions, and the head of a household could support a family of 6, even 8. Those jobs and the factories that produced goods have been exported, and so today, households struggle to make ends meet with 2 adults working 3 jobs, and a family size of 4, and we import more than we export.

This was no accident. Our leaders told us in the 70's that we would need to have a lower standard of living to make way for the NWO. Volker, Kissinger, Brzezinski, etc. They did not lie.

It might be smart to take the rebate and invest in some silver coins while the U.S. Dollar is still worth something. Then hang tight. As the economy tanks silver should rise in value. That might not be what Washington has in mind but then again, they ain't fur us.

@fiddlinshim January 19th, 2008 8:45 pm
"Clearly, the way to repair the economy must include cutting the military budget down from the currnt ~trillion dollars to less than half that amount,leaving us with a force more than adequate for defense, if not for imperial fantasies."

Half? Only cut it by Half? The US "defence" budget is WAY overblown, and there isnt
even anyone to defend against.

In March 2007, China announced that it would increase its annual defense budget
by 17.8% over the previous year, to $45 billion:-
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/budget.htm
Some of us with good memories should remember the outrage from our leaders.
It went roughly along the lines of:-

"Shock Horror - No one is threatening China, so
how can China justify spending SO MUCH on its military. This is a threat
to the free world". The US imposed sanctions on military sales to China and
Europe complied. As far as I know, those sanctions are still in place.

So if we cut the US military budget in half to about $450 billion, how on earth
could we justify having a military of that size?

Why not give each one of us who are not millionaires, a million dollars apiece? Just think, his legacy would say, among his many other accomplishments as a uniter in congress in bringing us closer together, that GWB created more wealthy citizens per capita, than all countries past and present since the beginning of human civilization.

C'mon, decider, whaddya think about the proposition?

I once got a $2 tax rebate. I didn't bother to cash it.

Thank you! I have been waiting for a few weeks for someone, anyone, to point out the enperor's nakedness -- the obvious fact that te drain on the economy that the endless war started by and continued by the Bush/Cheney administration with the active assistance of the Democrats in congress.

Clearly, the way to repair the economy must include cutting the military budget down from the currnt ~trillion dollars to less than half that amount,leaving us with a force more than adequate for defense, if not for imperial fantasies.

Sorry Kem, I don't get it, but then again there's a lot I don't get.

I'm planning on getting drunk with my check. What the hell, eh?

Howz business been lately Rebelnow? The dealers out our way are pretty worried.

Being offered a rebate check at this point is like being offered diner after getting raped. Georgie is offering us a rebate? Words cannot express my disgust.

l'm for making that rebate check go toward the purchase of a new car with an 80% or more domestic content that is a diesel, hybrid, or flex-fuel vehicle. We give the much battered auto industry a shot in the arm. Maybe kick in another $ 500 for people to trade in cars like that junker Volvo you're driving, be good for the enviorment too. PS ln case you couldn't guess, l sell cars

locust pays no taxes, has no debt.

Enjoy your rebate. I sincerely hope it helps.

Oh, and since the Doormat-ocrats brag about having ended unfunded spending, where is this money coming from?

Oh that's right, our children's future, assuming they have one.

A band aid on a gaping flesh wound this is. Now with this check, I can pay for some of my health insurance that doesnt even cover me if I do get hurt, and I am a federal employee, what do the rest of you all do?

But in more serious note, having witnessed three foreign elections , I would foolishly laugh at how the super poor folks would sell out their vote and voice for a sheet of carroborated zinc roofing or for a measly $6, thinking what fools. But this rebate, if you scale it up to our economy amounts to about the same thing. No way will the Democrats oppose this one (would they in a non-eletion year? probably not, but at least they would complain), as that would mean getting their ass handed to them in November.

End the war, reform the Health system...just reforming the health care system would pump MUCH more cash into the system. You could quadruple that little rebate. At least. Unfortunatley traler park Jim dont understand no health care but he done understand tax rebate, so that is what we are stuck with.

As for me, I live abroad, so I will cash that check and happily spend it to boost a economy much worse that the US's which in turn will support a government much more corrupt than ours (if you can believe those exist!).

Siouxrose wrote: "It's giving crumbs to the poor..."

Ha! The most needy will see none of it, if it's like the last one.

The last such distribution was a rebate of taxes paid. If you are too poor to pay taxes, you got nothing. I got nothing.

But then, I don't want anything. I purposely limit my earnings so that I don't support the government -- been doing that since Bush was (s)elected the first time, and am quite proud than none of my taxes have supported his unprovoked wars of aggression and massive transfer of wealth to the already wealthy.

Get rid of your cars. Move to a smaller house, that is walking/biking distance to work. Ask your boss if you can cut your hours. Better yet, start a home-based business, so that certain "luxuries" like computers are paid for with pre-tax dollars. Plant a garden. Stop consuming. Drop out of the system. Starve the beast!

The more you leave the economy, the less impact it has on you.

I have a better idea than rebates.

Give everyone cost plus contracts so that everything we buy gets paid for by the government with a guaranteed profit on top to sweeten the deal, and if we junk a few billion SUVs and plasma televisions in burn pits because they weren't quite perfect or the color was not what we were looking for then no big deal right. We will all be professional consumers employed by the good old USG.

After all, "deficits don't matter", right?

End the war. Cut military spending in half. Then we'll have plenty of money to do worthwhile things. It's not that complicated.

Those things are all on John Edwards platform JALLANTEXAS. I believe him too, I've never seen him lie to anyone. He made some bad calls as a Senator, and a lot of good ones, he lerned a lot while he was in the Senate and he's a fighter, a decent, commen sense oriented man who will enact fair and common sense changes if he's elected.

you could always ask bill gates to help you out......he's got lots of money

And what about bringing the troops home, cutting the military budget in half, investing in alternative energies to generate new jobs, have a national health insurance to save taxpayers health costs, and increase taxes on the rich and corporations. Simple enough and what most people would like to see. Why aren't the Presidential candidate talking about this other than those that won't be elected.....ugh!

Heavy article and comments folks.

I have learned a lot.

Any measures taken to avert/ameliorate a recession are just temporary band aid approaches. Long term we need a fundamental change in our trade policy. The US has to make things again. Presently, the only inflow of money into the US economy is loans; we no longer derive much revenue from the export of manufactured goods. Of course this would require a change in the US's role in the world, from world's policeman and buyer-of-last-resort, with the dollar as the leading currency of international exchange. But I doubt that the powers that be, in Washington, Beijing, Tokyo and Brussels would want such a thing.

sounds like robbing peter to pay paul............

Our manufacturing work force has fallen from 34% to 12% in just the past 35 years. For every manufacturng job lost, we lose five other supporting jobs.

About the only things manufactured in the USA these days are mean, nasty, ugly WMDs, fighter jets, bombs & bullets in a thousand tasty flavors, guns, grenades, tasers, poison gas, biological weapons, and body armor. Why would Benito Bush and Snarlin' Dick want to end the illegal occupation of Iraq when it's a huge shot in the arm of our war-based economy and a foot in the oily door of the Mideast? They may be bloodthirsty war criminals, but they know where their bread gets buttered. Wall Street & DC love war, and unless we elect Dennis Kucinich, John Edwards, or a Green candidate, pacificism is a lost cause.

Be well prepared, it's gonna get very rough, this is not 1929. The millions of small farmers are mostly gone.

Another nail in the coffin was driven into the stock market yesterday..
Read the following:

Ambac Downgraded, Cities Seen at Risk

By STEPHEN BERNARD and LESLIE WINES (AP Business Writers)
From Associated PressJanuary 19, 2008 6:45 AM EST
NEW YORK - A downgrade of bond insurer Ambac Financial Group Inc. is likely to have far-reaching effects, making it more difficult for cities to issue new bonds and forcing further write-downs at financial services companies, analysts said Friday.
After Ambac scrapped plans to raise $1 billion in capital, Fitch Ratings cut the company's crucial financial strength rating to "AA" from "AAA."
The downgrade likely means Ambac will not underwrite any more business, said John Flahive, director of fixed income for BNY Mellon Wealth Management. Market prices of existing bonds insured by Ambac and MBIA Inc. were trading lower before the downgrade, and Flahive suggested any downgrade could accelerate the decline.
Ambac and chief competitor MBIA together insure $700 billion in municipal bonds, and MBIA's "AAA" rating is also under threat. The company issued $1 billion in bonds this week to preserve the rating, though that may not be enough to satisfy the ratings agencies. MBIA said in a statement Friday it intends to keep working toward maintaining its "AAA" rating.
Since late last year, when the agencies first raised the prospect, analysts have suggested any move to cut Ambac or MBIA below "AAA" could be disastrous. The concern is that downgrades will lead to a reduction in the value of portfolios at dozens of financial institutions, said Donald Light, a senior analyst at Celent LLC.
"Bond insurers are the lynchpin holding together valuations of portfolios of all kinds of financial institutions," Light said.

Follow the link to read the rest of the article.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080119/bond_insurers.html?.v=4