There is little oppositon to the war. The author is a failure at what he does. The people are gainst the conduct of the war because it hasn't led to victory, and they think it was a mistake to go in because it wasn't properly conducted. The people are against losing, not against war. That is why the author has failed. The people will elect McCain because they think he will be a better warrior. As always, Americans want someone who will be as tough and ruthless as they themselves don't have the stomach to be. The anti-war movement has no oxygen, and the author will witness his impotence from the sidelines in November.

The only useful commentary I took out of the other article was that, indeed, the protests here aren't on par with Vietnam-era or European-style mass protests. But it's wrong to assume that want of organization is the problem.

These things occur when they occur, little or no organization needed. The more organization that's required, the less genuine support/sentiment existed in the first place. Anyone might imagine a few scenarios that would spontaneously get Americans out into the streets by the millions. They under-estimate how angry people are getting, how the trust factor is diminishing, and there is no clean way to control mobs on the magnitude of 100,000+. It's possible to read the future like a book.

O roe, I guess I'll have to display my ignorance here, not that I have any objections to doing that, but why can't peace organizations endorse a candidate? I understand about the non-profit thing, but I don't get the inability-to-endorse thing. For example, I, as an individual, can write a letter to my local paper that endorses Kucinich (not that my lone voice is going to make much difference), so why can't a peace organization, which is made up of a large number of onstensibly like-minded individuals, do the same?

And, please, don't think I'm attacking your statement with this question. I'm simply curious.

Thank you.

Starting the Draft will not touch the children of those who so love war.

Keep in mind Romney's statement that his sons were doing national service by helping their Daddy get elected.

The source of such drivel is probably one of Georgie's chief speech writers; you know, the one that makes his boss sound like such an a-hole.

ticonderoga, peace groups are normally non-profits, cannot endorse a candidate as a group, as an individual i can talk to all 800 people i know from same group on my own and their own peronal mail and we all support kucinich, as a group, nuh-uh.

I think we should also be questioning why such an obvious piece of disinformation, as the original article proclaiming the retreat, should have appeared on Commondreams. The article in question had no names of either organizations or people attending this so-called "meeting." It was a sophomoric article rife with unsubstantiated claims that did not deserve to be published anywhere, much less reprinted on this site.

I hear an anti-war noise, but I don't see an anti-war movement. No kind of anti-war anything has had any effect whatsoever.

In reading the above posts, still, it is not getting through.

THE TOOLS OF DEMOCRACY (protests, letters, sit ins, etc) ONLY WORK WITH A RESPONSE FROM "THE OTHER SIDE." WHEN THIS RESPONSE IS NOT FORTHCOMING, THE TOOLS OF DEMOCRACY DO NOT WORK. YOU CAN USE THEM UNTIL YOU ARE BLUE IN THE FACE BUT IF YOU HAVE NONRESPONSIVE GOVERNMENT, CONGRESS, CITY COUNCIL, WHATEVER, NOTHING WILL CHANGE.

THIS MEANS YOU NEED TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT TO EVOKE CHANGE BECAUSE THE TOOLS WE ARE ALL USED TO USING NO LONGER WORK.

If the peace organizations are so dead-serious about ending the war why are so few backing Kucinich? And why aren't they organizing boycotts? Remember Alexander Haig's "They can protest all they want as long as they pay their taxes" thing?

We need to do more than tell them what we want. They don't care. We need to show them we're serious. We need to hit them where it hurts, which is in their pocketbooks. Boycott NBC and ABC for not letting Kucinich debate (and that means boycott GE, too). Use as little gasoline as you can. Don't join the military. Stop eating meat. And so on.

Or else they'll just laugh at us and continue with business as usual, which is making money from selling weapons of mass destruction.

Jim Glover I agree. We need an umbrella, a People's Movement for all the 3rd progressive parties. Here is a variety of such parties that have existed and many still exist:

Socialist Equality Party
Socialist Party USA
Socialist Workers Party
Green Party
Workers World Party
Working Families Party
Socialist Action
Socialist Alternative
Socialist Labor Party
Workers Party, USA
World Socialist Party of the United States.
Peace and Freedom Party
Communist Party of the United States
Democratic Socialist of America
Freedom Road Socialist Organization

I bet all these parties will agree to fight for
these seven important goals:

1. Get out of Iraq and establish cooperative relations with all the countries of the Middle East and the world.

2. Cut down drasticly military spending and close down all military bases around the world.

3. Initiate a world conference leading to disarmament of all traditional,neuclear, chemical and biological arms and outlaw wars as a means of solving problems among nations.

4. Eliminate poverty and hunger

5. Eliminate illiteracy and provide free intermediary and affordable higher education.

6. Provide single payer free health care for all.

7. Cultivate love and care for the environment
through education, use of renewable resources and overall sustainable development.

Is there any one of the progressive parties who would not fight for the above goals? If not, why
are we bickering and wasting precious time, each one baricated in his/her little castle and claiming monopoly of knowledge of how to fight for the working class? !!! Let us unite brothers!

6.

I've long ago redefined winning and losing into a personal sense. If I vote contrary to my conscience, I lose.

But I don't think any idea, however noble, can make it past the gates in a system as horribly broken as ours. So long as we have the Corporate Media (CM) as "boosters" for the corporate parties, and have no Range (the more superior vote) or IRV (inferior, but better than what we have now), voting seems to be a largely irrelevant ritual to rubber-stamp what was already a done-deal anyway. To lend plutocracy some sort of additional legitimacy in the public's eye. We're held hostage to the median political IQ of this country.

There is nothing either more long-term effective or immediately important that the anti-war people can do than to see to it we elect Washington full of Democrats—this year..

Voting for pro-war Democrats will not help end the war, no matter how many times you say it will.

Williameon

Outstanding! Thank you for contributing the many steps needed to take in order to create a more humane and egalitarian society for the betterment of our country.

The Congress needs to be cleansed of any member who thinks this grievous expenditure of people and money is a good idea and needs to continue.
They all took an oath to "uphold and defend the Constitution" and I do not see very much of that being done and they need to be publicly held accountable for that ommission.

Jim Glover January 19th, 2008 9:44 am
These parties can only start to make a difference if they do join together and form an umbrella group or coalition.

Bingo! I agree. But rather than leaving it to them (3rd parties) I think we are the ones that have to start that unifying movement. If not us, who?

We need to stop arguing about Clinto/Obama/Edwards, dump the Democrats and start putting together a coalition of the people.

The only way to stop all this is to HURT THE BUSINESSMEN who are sucking bloody profit out of it. Physical blockades of war-producers' factories. Blockades of media stations. Blockades of Washington DC. NOTHING will change as long as business as usual can go on. When the money is affected, then and only then will our "leaders" (meaning, parasites) begin to listen

With all of the choices of 3rd Progressive and Socialist parties it is obvious that they serve to promote many of the best positions but since they all split the votes, even among them selves, none of them can possibly win.

These parties can only start to make a difference if they do join together and form an umbrella group or coalition.

it may sooth your conscious to vote for only one party but sometimes you got to walk and chew gum and infiltrate the Dems so that the bigger New Coalition will have an impact on the Big system and still be the best at local community organizing.

The Democratic party is nothing but a money funnel and does not talk about or promote any of the causes of the independent 3rd parties (Our own demands).

This is the big challenge that we haven't faced yet... if we don't unite the 3rd party progressives, We will always get blamed for giving the numbers to the Republicans.

And the 3rd parties will always have the equal point that the Dems were too weak to win anyway and both views are true because splintering weakens the movement and the Dem party is just a money machine for their mostly corporate candidates.

So to Win for once in our history we have to unite the 3rd parties and also use this to support a progressive Dem at times when it is essential.

I like Cynthia, and I like Edwards but I may have to vote for a Democrat because the damage of another Republican government... is too bad to ignore anymore.

If the Dems disappoint as usual we will still have started to unite for a big progressive movement.

When I see the 3rd parties try to unite for a stronger movement I will know that they are serious and not just playing the "We are the only True Peoples Party Game"

If we keep being splintered and losing every contest, than that will continue to be the publics image of us as a bunch of losers.

I haven't decided who to vote for yet, the world is changing fast so it depends on what the situation is at election time.

If we took a stand on the most important issue that is the natural umbrella of our lives, To end the Racket of War and rebuild for our future, that could be a new revolution that wins for all of us.

NOW is already in full retreat, supporting Hilary Rodham Klanton, the most pro war candidate and neo con out there, being the closet case Goldwater Republican she is.

Follow their formula for victory and you will discover the formula for their defeat.

We must attack the economic Interests lurking behind the problem.
Open the curtains and peel away the many veils of deceit.
The Anti-War movement has a lot in common with the Anti-Mass-Media movement.
The anti-Mass-Media movement has a lot in common with the Anti-Globalization movement.
So on and so on.
We are the people.
They want to divide us into little splinter groups so they can marginalize us one by one.
Our organization will be just the opposite!
Totally decentralized and run by an informed committee.
An informed committee of various members of many diversified groups.
Each sect of the tiniest segment will be represented.
There should be no individual figure heads that they could attack and cut off.
We must emulate the organization that we want to create.
The goal we are reaching for is:
A totally decentralized system.
Technology has helped put it within our grasp.
Local owned and run media, banking, education, manufacturing, healthcare, green energy and food production.
Common goals, positive ideals and cooperation will build the foundation for a powerful people's coalition.
This coalition than could be used for positive change that would benefit all.
We all have a common enemy.
It is a multi headed corpirate monster we must defeat.
The nightmare on Pennsylvania Ave.
As long as Arms dealers control media outlets we will have an uphill climb.
The Media is the high ground.
We must take first.
On the way up the mountain we must begin to bring civility and sanity to the system by
Instituting complete and total campaign finance reform.
The sooner we take the money out of politics the sooner we will have positive beneficial change.
Dissemination of alternative information is our strongest weapon.
The power of Television can help solve the problem that it has created.
It must be used again for it's primary purpose,
Education and information first, then entertainment.
A well informed, healthy, educated populous is the best way to insure our freedom.

Follow the Corpirate's formula for victory and you will discover the formula for their defeat.
We have to personalize the WAR.
Explain to everyone patiently how it negatively affects their lives.
These multi-national Conglomerates have no allegiance to people or Country.
They are ruled by GREED and GREED is their downfall.
Stand back as the Corpirate cookie crumbles.
Hit them where it hurts!
On their bottom line.
Divest ourselves from the WAR MACHINE.
Shut their violent crap off and
Never buy any of their corpirate garbage.
Force them to divest themselves from their Media for their own self survival.
It is a conflict of interest.
The fastest way to get what we want is to take the media back, piece by piece and
Enlighten the citizens.
Complete finance reform is necessary now.
As long as The Corpirates are allowed to buy influence you will suffer.
Right now the system is rigged.

All the tools are here already.
All you have to do,
Is help make it work!

COMarc ... yep, we're on our own. Therefore we have to make the most of what we have. As I see it, we have the internet and not much else. However, the internet is very powerful in the sense that there are always people who can cite chapter and verse and immediately combat the Corporate Media and so we can learn the true situation very quickly.

We have to turn this situation to our advantage and the only way I can see to do this is to try to spread the truth and point out its implications. One method of bringing the truth to a wider audience is to take advantage of the investments we have made in computing equipment by forwarding real news to people on our mailing lists or by printing old-fashioned leaflets on our printers and going door-to-door or windshield-to-windshield.

So what exactly is Win Without War planning on DOING? This guy doesn't deny the strategy that MoveOn has adopted, just that it's not "retreat."

WHAT anti-war movement??

Ya know, as I read this another time, I'm reminded of the movie "All the President's Men" and editor Ben Bradley's talk of 'non-denial denials'. When I read this closely, I don't ever think Mr. Andrews refutes the other article. So I take it that the other article is correct and that this other group is ending its high $$ campaign against funding the war.

There's a lot of bluster in this piece. Which is actually a refreshing change from the normal weakness of 'anti-war leaders'. But it never says exactly what they plan on doing for this year. Maybe just in the first line where it mentions the elections.

So, this group is ending its campaign to end war funding. Probably redirecting its money into the campaign. And of course, since MoveOn and this group have been real suck ups and damn near an extension of the Democratic Party, I'm guessing they are going to work to elect Democrats.

The only problem being is that we all know that the problem ain't been that there's too few Democrats in the Congress. The problem is that the leadership of the Democratic Party has supported this war from the beginning and has helped shelter and sheppard through the war funding and tried to deflect anti-war action into measures that are sure to fail to end the war like non-binding resolutions and bills that can be filibustered or vetoed. They put up lots and smoke and mirrors, but the war funding always went through with the support of Reid and Pelosi.

Its all too clear we are on our own.

The article on the Allbritton Group website made the following claim

"After a series of legislative defeats in 2007 that saw the year end with more U.S. troops in Iraq than when it began, a coalition of anti-war groups is backing away from its multimillion-dollar drive to cut funding for the war and force Congress to pass timelines for bringing U.S. troops home"

The grammatical phrasing suggests that a coalition of anti-war groups made the legislation that was defeated.

The author and Allbritton Group need to correct their grammatical mistake.

The Democratic party, and specifically the Democratic Congress failed, not the anti-war groups.

Who is the Allbritton Group to make such an obvious grammatical error. Are they attempting to protect the Democratic Congress, and place the blame on anti-war groups? What is their motive for such a grammatical obfuscation?

Stop toying with the truth. The American people don't like that.

Step 1 is don't pay much attention to 'leaders' of the movement. They are all self-appointed. And frankly, if there was a chance to fire them for poor performance it'd probably be a good idea. But, since they are all self-appointed leaders, I doubt they'll fire themselves.

So, act like there are no leaders to the movement. That's the anarchist way anyways. Just get together with people on your street or in your neighborhood or in your town and start doing stuff. These leaders just sit around and talk to each other, so don't wait for them to tell you to do anything.

Besides, if we really want to build a society for our future, what we want is a grassroots democracy. What doesn't work is what we've got now with a bunch of leaders who don't listen and are subceptable to corruption. We need a grass-root democracy, so that's how we should organize ourselves. With the advantage that we can ignore self-appointed, self-important 'leaders'.

Agreed that the WSWS is a great site. The articles are about 39 times more to the point and better written than NYT, which is an understatement. But we also have to post things on Corporate Media sites. Otherwise we will forever concede the "Mainstream"

By the way, I prefer Corporate Media to the term MSM

Also note that this MOVEON tripe was posted on Huffington Post. I was listening to Air America during the Iowa and New Hampshire Primaries and I notived THAT AIR AMERICA AND HUFFINGTON-- WHO WAS A GUES-- WERE VIRTUALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM THE CORPORATE HACKS IN SPINNING THE OUTCOME. THEY BOTH TRIED TO BLOW HILLARY AND OBOMB EM. To me this reaffirmed their status as left-gatekeepers who SOUNDED different from the DLC....

BUT FOR STRATEGIC reasons... ONLY TO FOLD THIS AUDIENCE BACK INTO THE DLC CORE when it came time to sell the lesseroftwoevilism round election time. NO MORE!!

jerry1208: The Greens organizationally and politically are a massive disappointment

At least the Green Party has a progressive platform. When the people decide to vote progressive, and they choose the Green party to represent them, the Green party will then start doing all the right things. But it's up to the people, the individual, and so here are the stakes for the individual:

1.) If you vote progressive and progressives win the election, you take credit for the benefits to the society.

2.) If you vote progressive and progressives lose the election, you don't take liability for the damage to the society.

3.) If you vote non-progressive and progressives win the election, you can't take credit for the benefit to the society.

4.) If you vote non-progressive and progressives lose the election, you take liability for the damage to the society.

As you can see, by voting progressive candidates you are able to take credit for the benefits of a progressive win and not take liability for the damage of a progressive loss.

Now the question of which party is progressive. The Demoks are not progressive - they are establishment. Any party connected to the capitalist establishment can't be progressive. When progressives take control in Washington it will be due to a large number of Americans voting an anti-establishment progressive party. True progressives have to wait for them to come round. But while they wait, true progressives should vote only progressive, never "least worst" establishment.

Now a progressive party in power that becomes corrupted will then lose the progressive vote. A corrupted progressive party will only last one election cycle. The next election, progressives will abandon the corrupted party and vote a different set of anti-establishment types. Keep it up cycle after cycle and eventually the culture of corruption will diminish. It won't go away, but we'll know how to defeat its challenges, if we don't forget.

We are a big majority, but when we start thinking about a specific party, such as Green, or PPP or Socialist etc., we shrink to a small minority. It is very premature to talk about a progressive party choice and have hopes of scoring victories against the two-headed
republicratic corporate monster. Only Cindy Sheehan has hinted a few times the importance of forming a People's Movement. An umbrella organization that can accomodate Greens, PPP, Socialists, and all categories of progressive social, peace, and enviromental movements. That means, an umbrella organization that can accomodate the MAJORITY. Let us keep in mind how Hugo Chavez and Evo Morales did it by organizing movements outside the established political box.

Progressive, populist, green politics and parties, and simplistic "protest" polics have been proven inadequate in understanding the nature of the corporatist dictatorship we now face.

Forever we have heard that all we need is to elect Kucinich or Nader or now Cynthia McKinney, the best of the "progressive" voices, and all the "bad" things that Bush and Cheney have done will end. This is a delusion of "progressives" that ultimately re-enforces the corporatist status quo.

Mussolini is quoted: Fascism is better called corporatism when you have the merger of state power and corporate power.

I have been, since 1996, a registered member of the Green Party in California. The Greens organizationally and politically are a massive disappointment. In elections they are continually in deference to progressives in the Democratic Party (will not run against Henry Waxman).

In order to end corporatism, to end war, to even think of stopping Global Warming, we must realize that run-amok and gangster capitalism itself must end.

To break out of the corporate media mind control, psychological warfare, indoctrination since childhood, about the reality of corporatism and capitalism today, I suggest reading on a daily basis the World Socialist Web Site:

http://www.wsws.org

Further investigate the Socialist Eqaulity Party, on the same site, and the necessity of socialism.

Socialism or Barbarism

RE MOVEON FUNDRAISERS AND PSY OP OF THE BENDOVERCRATS SOMEONE WROTE
"Anyway, good luck with your tactics. I'm sure your continued "polite" approach will make the defense industry and Washington happy for yet another day."

Right onwards. People on this board seem to get it.

NOW EVEN FEINGORLD IS BACKING HILLARY AND OBOMB EM BY ATTACKING EDWARDS AND NOT THE GREAT PRASERS OF REAGAN.!!!!!

DONT WE SEE NOW HOW MURHA AND Feingolds a just a psyop lightening rod to take pressure of the DLC. They working together WHEN WILL WE WAKE UP CALL FEINGOLDS OFFICE AND BLAST HIM!

To retreat you have to have a place to retreat to.

Jerry1208,

Well said, brother. What alachuagreen said makes sense as well. I'm Green and we have a progressive agenda.

The important thing is to educate the public about the present state of affairs and what needs to be done at the local level. Too many are still in denial about the direction of this morally bankrupt administration and what they have unleashed on the American people and others around the planet.

Without knowledge of the facts, people will vote against their own interests. Tyrants aren't afraid of so-called "terrorists", but they fear an educated and well-informed public united in stopping their activities and bringing them to justice.

Want anti-war? Bring back the draft!

Uh...MoveOn? Democrats?

Sorry, but I, uh, don't understand your logic.

Anyway, good luck with your tactics. I'm sure your continued "polite" approach will make the defense industry and Washington happy for yet another day.

If the "antiwar" tactics were the same in the late sixties as our so called "antiwar" movement tactics are now, we'd still be in Vietnam (and black Americans would still be sitting in the back of the bus.)

You, your saviors (democrats) and hacks like MoveOn, haven't stopped one single bullet. Not one. Nor saved one Iraqi life. Not one. Nor save one American soldiers life. Not one.

Keep up the good work.

As for me, I'll be voting independent, or not at all. I don't support nor do I vote for murderers anymore.

Alachuagreen, I agree about the Green Party. A new party would lead to even more fragmentation than we already have. Anyone who reads the Green Party platform can see right away that we have one national, progressive party. The Green Party is it. And we have one party with the infrastructure to make a difference if progressives can take it over . . . or hijack it or stage a political coup. That is the party of Jefferson and Madison, the oldest political party on Earth. (And one that is dominated by corporate, militarist Democrats.) So I support progressives in the Democratic Party completely. We have the Congressional Progressive Caucus in the Democratic Party and over 20 State Progressive Caucuses. And I support the Green Party completely. There is no contradiction here, just both/and thinking instead of either/or thinking.

It will be very interesting to see what March 08 will bring...hopefully, a Ron Paul rEVOLution to the protests!

jerry1208 says we need a "new Peoples Peace Party" that is independent of the Dems and doesn't take corporate money. The party already exists, and doesn't need to be invented. It is called the Green Party (see http://gp.org for info) and the GP's likely nominee for president 2008 is six-term Georgia Congresswoman and ex-Democrat Cynthia McKinney. Listen to the Jan. 13 SF Green Party presidential debate on Pacifica Radio's KPFA (look in the KPFA Archives for Tuesday January 15 @ 7pm) to hear what Cynthia has to say. Cindy Sheehan was a moderator. Cynthia's campaign website isn't fully developed yet but has lots of good information: www.runcynthiarun.org .

The Green Party is the PEOPLE'S PEACE PARTY and we will have the only PEACE CANDIDATE on the ballot in November.

Tom Andrews has always been, to my knowledge, a true progressive. He shows his continued commitment to oppose illegal wars and occupations in this article. Bravo Tom!!!

re 12:54pm

it's good to see the DLC in full damage-control mode, especially when the results are as unintentionally funny as the post in question.

"(republicans) don't compromise well...that's why you need democrats..." (yeah, compromise is a nasty job but somebody's got to do it.)

and this bit of sage advice:

"...don't go berserk and ignite an unintended backlash..." (in fact, why don't y'all just vote D, go home and shut up? you're frightening the children!)

for those who still, amazingly, don't get it, it's the Ds themselves who've ignited the backlash; and when pelosi, reed, conyers and the other invertebrates are proofreading their concession speeches, they can reflect on that fact.

"Wouldn't it be nice if Congress demanded accountability for the Bush administration's continued manipulation of the media and deception of the American people?"

Good to place to start: an "oath" of martial office...

A question of honor in a measure of character...

DUH...for the "ASKING"!

"Politics" link @ http://artistgeneral.com

Glad to see this article, but at what point did moveon.org become part of the anti-war movement? They are as big-business, USA-centric as an organization can be.

This letter from Tom Andrews came to me today in my email and I was delighted to see it here om CommomDreams as well. In this time of political darkness I am glad to know that "Win without War" is still committed and involved to such an extent. Sometimes I feel like a small voice speaking into the wind - so Intentional community makes a HUGE difference to my well being.

So often we read posted complaints about "preaching to the choir" But for me it is the community of caring and compassionate folks here that helps me navigate through the morass of faux news headlines and denigrating editorials that are considered MSM.

Today I raise my glass to all of us and especially those who have made such an effort for our national good!

Same today as yesterday. There is nothing either more long-term effective or immediately important that the anti-war people can do than to see to it we elect Washington full of Democrats---this year..
This is simply because Republicans in government will never be sympathetic to any kind of de-escalation. It is not in their DNA, nor does it play to their base. So they don't do it. And they don't compromise well either. That is why you need Democrats, to DISPLACE Republicans.

It's therefore important than anti-war people don't go berserk and ignite an unintended backlash against the very goals they (and we) all have. Taunting bad dogs is dangerous, and so is taunting reactionaries of the right.

I for one have no intentions of letting up vocal resistance to the war and the police state. Remember kiddies, all the damage that Capt. Magic and his Fantastical String Band have done to the country doesn't disappear with them to their South American estates in 2009!

Retreat is not an option, but it would be nice if the peace movement picked up the pace a little bit.

American democracy has been in a slumber. We spent decades staring at our television screens passively consuming the monopoly media broadcasts.

Now we are connecting with each other online and American democracy is strengthening again.

However, we have a long way to go.

We need the peace movement to be active, vocal, non-violent, and influencial. We have the ability to live in peace.

I agree we need to re-institute the draft, ezeflyer, and I disagree that congresspeople won't care because their offspring are insulated by privilege from serving. Some of them will go just to please their parents, or for future political bragging rights. The main thing it would accomplish is to radicalize & invigorate the anti-war mevement. Young people are getting involved now, and when threatened by the draft will react instead of just sitting lethargically in front of the tube or a game boy. One of the peaks in the Viet Nam era anti-war movement was some youth being gunned down in an American protest. I hate to think such an extreme is what it will take for massive American outrage about the current war, but a few sacrificial lambs might be what we need.

Bring the draft back and parents will raise hell if they think their precious little darlings' asses will be on the line.

Lizard, I agree with you that in the beginning the majority of Americans weren't against the war, but that's just because they were conned into thinking it was justified, a noble cause.

Now, though, the majority of people realize the war wasn't justified and they want to end the thing. There are plenty of polls that tell us this. It's the politicos that don't want to end the war, and they aren't paying any attention to the people because they all think the people are a bunch of dumb sheep who don't know what's good for them.

But sooner or later the people will have had enough.