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The Pakistan Conundrum
The assassination of former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhuto has prompted much instant analysis and 'Monday morning quarterbacking' by observers of that volatile region. Early assessment's agree that public sentiment in Pakistan has turned decisively against both President Pervez Musharraf and the Islamic Parties who oppose him (and from the ranks of which the alleged assassins were recruited). President Musharraf himself has given weight to such assessments by reaffirming Pakistani sovereignty (he would treat any unilateral American military incursion into the Northwest Frontier as an invasion which he would oppose by force) and by projecting his own personal political vulnerability (he expects opposition parties to make gains in the coming elections, and if the newly empowered majority seeks to impeach him, he will resign).
President Musharraf's pro-American posturing and the material support Pakistan has provided in the so-called 'Global War on Terror' have been decidedly unpopular among the majority of the Pakistani population. Islamabad has always tried to tread lightly when it came to an American military presence on Pakistani soil. The quick 'victory' of the U.S.-led Northern Alliance over the Taliban and al-Qaida in Afghanistan allowed inconvenient American military bases in Pakistan to be transferred to the newly conquered territory inside Afghanistan. However, continued resistance in Afghanistan from the Taliban and al-Qaida, who depend on support networks throughout the Northwest Frontier of Pakistan, have prompted the United States to pressure Pakistan's government to crack down, and even in some cases to allow direct action on Pakistani soil, either in the form of the CIA or a military intervention.
President Musharraf has acted against pro-Taliban militants in the Northwest Frontier, but with negligible results. Indeed, much of the Islamic militancy in Pakistan today has been stirred up by the regime's continued support of American-inspired operations in Pakistan. Pervez Musharraf's recent statement opposing unilateral American military intervention in Pakistan sends a clear signal that the ongoing opposition in Pakistan to continued support of U.S. military activity targeting Pakistanis has resonated politically.
The political unrest created by Musharraf's ongoing support of the U.S. 'Global War on Terror' prompted the Pakistani Dictator to seek stability by firing Pakistani Supreme Court Justices he disagreed with, and to suspend the Constitution. Both actions have left him vulnerable to impeachment if political opposition parties are able to assemble a viable majority in the Parliament in upcoming elections expected in February. Musharraf has indicated he will not be a political pawn in any resultant call for accountability. The question remains whether or not Musharraf will resign and depart Pakistan as a political exile, or resign and reassert himself as Dictator, or resign and throw his support behind a new military dictatorship which will enable him to remain in Pakistan as a behind-the-scenes power broker.
Some would scoff at the notion that Musharraf would seek to re-impose military dictatorship in the face of a growing demand for democracy and the rule of law. While Pakistan plays lip service to the notion of Parliamentary democracy, the reality is that it is first and foremost a Muslim nation born more from a call for Islamic identity than a desire to embrace the Magna Carta-driven democracy of its colonial masters, the British.
The secular nature of Pervez Musharraf's dictatorship disguises the fact that Pakistan as a nation was birthed in an environment of Islamic national identity. Pakistan from its inception was supposed to bring together the Muslim populations of the former British Indian colony into a viable nation state. While many of those who oversaw the formation of the new governmental structure were moderate, even secular lawyers trained in the British tradition, the overwhelming population of what was to become Pakistan traced their loyalty to a system of local elders and religious figures who more often than not referred to Shar'ia, or Islamic law, when pronouncing decisions of government. This duality is reflected in the resolution passed by Pakistan's early leaders on the eve of what was to become the country's constitutional convention. It proclaimed: "Sovereignty under the entire universe belongs to Allah Almighty alone," and characterized Islamic values as essential in any new government.
But Pakistan is no homogeneous Islamic state. Its roots are deeply seated in tribal, familial and ethnic realities that most non-Pakistani observers are ill-equipped to comprehend. An illustration of this can be found simply by noting that Benazir Bhutto, the martyred symbol of democratic reform, in reality sat at the head of a political party, the PPP, which was born not from Pakistani society in general, but rather from the ranks of the 700,000-strong Bhutto tribe. The Bhuttos, an ethnic Sindhi group, possess an insularity that belies the image of democratic reform embraced by Benazir Bhutto herself. An ongoing rift within the PPP over Bhutto's successor illustrates this: Benazir's husband, Zardari, together with her son, Bilawal, have claimed the leadership of the party, citing a controversial and challenged 'will' which emerged following Benazir Bhutto's assassination. Neither Zardari nor Bilawal are considered to be part of the Bhutto tribe, because Zardari is of Baluchi heritage and the son is traditionally linked to the family tree of the father. It is not the history of corruption that surrounds Zardari, or the inexperience of Bilawal (a student in the UK), which the Bhutto tribe finds objectionable, but simply the fact that a political party founded by, and for, the Bhuttos is now in the hands of someone outside the tribe.
Pakistan's population of 170 million people is comprised of three major ethnic groups, the Punjabi, Pashtun and Sindhi, who account for some 44%, 16% and 14% of the population respectively. Indian Muslin immigrants, or Mujahirs, make up about 8% of the population, while the Baluchi make up another 4%. The remaining population is divided among other minorities, including the Kasmiri and the various tribes which make up Pakistan's Northwest Frontier. There are also some 3 million Afghan refugees still residing in Pakistan today, a tragic remnant from the time of the Soviet invasion and occupation of that land. Pakistan's historical roots, when it was divided into an eastern and western state, led in part to three major wars (in 1948, 1965 and 1971) and several minor skirmishes between Pakistan and India. The historical turmoil surrounding the creation of Pakistan, as well as the inconsistent ability of its federal system to hold together the wide variety of ethnic and religious groups brought together to form the country, combined to create a system imbued with a spirit of distrust between the various ethnicities. The animosities created by this distrust are manifest in Pakistan's special intelligence service, which was formed to better deal with not only threats from abroad, but also threats from within. The highly politicized nature of this intelligence service, the Inter-Services Intelligence Agency, or ISI, has only caused further intrigue and uncertainty for the nation.
The Pakistani ISI played an instrumental role in using Islam as a tool during its struggle against India, as well as its opposition to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979. The Makhtab al-Khidamat, or MAK, was one of many Islamic organizations which were funded and supported by the ISI. Operating out of bases inside Pakistan, the MAK was founded in 1984 by Abdullah Yussuf Azzam, a Palestinian Islamic scholar and theologian, and a Saudi follower, Osama Bin Laden. using money provided by Bin Laden, and working closely with the Pakistani ISI, Azzam and the MAK established a base of operations in the Northwest Frontier city of Peshawar, a scant 15 miles from the historic Khyber Pass into Afghanistan. Azzam and the MAK put into operation a system of logistics and communication between the Northwest Frontier and Afghanistan which provided material and financial support to the Afghan Mujahadeen fighting the Soviet Army. The MAK was also able to funnel a few Arab Mujahadeen into Afghanistan, although this number never rose above a few hundred. With the assassination of Azzam in 1989, the leadership of the MAK was transferred to Osama Bin Laden, who in 1988 formed an alliance with the head of the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Ayman al-Zawahiri which today is known as al-Qaida.
The links between Osama Bin Laden and the Pakistani ISI were deep. The MAK lines of communication between Peshawar and Afghanistan, established during the struggle against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, were continued and strengthened during the 1990's, this time as part of the al-Qaida organization, with the full knowledge and support of the ISI. Pakistan had been taken aback by the violent infighting between the various Afghan Mujahadeen forces in the aftermath of the Soviet defeat and withdrawal in 1989. In an effort achieve stability in Afghanistan, the ISI supported the rise of the Taliban, and with it the support to the Taliban by the Arab Mujahadeen of Osama Bin Laden's al-Qaida. Pakistan was one of only three nations to recognize the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan.
The al-Qaida-Taliban connection was also seen by the ISI as a means of maintaining contacts with Saudi and other Gulf Arab sources of funds needed to sustain not only stability inside Afghanistan, but also to promote instability inside Indian-occupied Kashmir. Training camps set up by al-Qaida in Afghanistan to recruit and prepare foreign Mujahadeen for operations worldwide were supported by the ISI as a means of training covert operatives for activity in Kashmir. al-Qaida and its Arab funders returned the favor by assisting the ISI in establishing mirror-image facilities inside Pakistan which were used to train paramilitary forces for operations in Kashmir. In 1999 Pakistan sent a large force of paramilitary operatives across the border into Kashmir disguised as Kashmiri rebels. This gambit failed, and in doing so exposed the reality that the ISI was heavily involved in training Islamist extremists to do their bidding, both in Kashmir as well as Afghanistan.
The support provided by the ISI to Osama Bin Laden was extensive. When American cruise missiles struck al-Qaida training camps in Afghanistan in 1998, in retaliation for the terror bombings carried out against the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, among the casualties were Pakistani ISI agents working with al-Qaida. After the terror attacks of September 11, 2001, Pakistan was forced to reconsider its public support of the Taliban. The ISI made an effort to convince the Taliban to turn Osama Bin Laden over to a neutral third party so he could be tried for the 9/11 attacks, but this offer was rebuked by the Taliban leadership. The collapse of the Taliban as a military force was so rapid in the fall/winter of 2001 that when a large number of al-Qaida forces were surrounded in the northern Afghan city of Konduz, a large number of ISI agents and operatives were trapped with them. One of the secret annals of the Afghan War is the story of how the Pakistani Government negotiated with the United States to permit the evacuation by air of several hundred Pakistani ISI personnel who had been working with al-Qaida in Afghanistan. It is alleged that in addition to the Pakistani evacuees, numerous high-level al-Qaida fighters were likewise withdrawn, in particular those with intimate knowledge of the ISI activities involving Kashmir and the Central Asian republics.
The ISI also plays an important role in the internal politics of Pakistan, monitoring various ethnic and tribal groups who are deemed to be questionable in terms of their absolute loyalty to Pakistan, or at least the Pakistan supported by the ISI. In doing so, the ISI has established relationships with all the major tribal and ethnic groups, and is thus able to play one off against the other in a giant game of divide and conquer. One of the targets of the ISI was, and is, the PPP Party of Benazir Bhutto. The intelligence agency had made use of its considerable links with the Islamist elements of Pakistan's Northwest Frontier to generate an Islamic opposition to the return to power of Benazir Bhutto, and there is good reason to believe that the ISI was involved, either directly or indirectly, in her assassination.
The unfortunate reality of Pakistan today is that it is a barely functioning nation state. Federalism, designed to bring together a disparate band of ethnic groups and religious movements, is failing. Democracy, the dream of western-trained lawyers, is foreign to the majority of the population, which largely continues to defer to tribal elders and religious leaders. The nefarious activities of the Pakistani ISI only highlight the reality that Pakistan, today, is not only an untrustworthy member of the erstwhile 'global coalition against terrorism,' but actually a deep-rooted supporter and instigator of the very violence the United States has sworn to oppose since 9/11. Far from being a close ally, the truth is that, if anything, Pakistan is the personification of the enemy we have supposedly pledged to defeat.
Does this mean that the appropriate policy direction of the United States should be to wage war against Pakistan, as we have against the Taliban in Afghanistan? Absolutely not. If anything, the experience of Afghanistan shows that without a doubt the policies embraced by the Bush administration in pursuing its 'Global War on Terror' were fundamentally flawed. In the cause and effect world of reality, as opposed to the 'never-never' land of neoconservative fantasy, any continued push against Pakistan in the name of the 'Global War on Terror' would be extremely counterproductive. Let's not forget that they have the bomb.
The fact of the matter is that the chief enemy in America's fight against terrorism, Osama Bin Laden, is a mere propaganda source who is given more legitimacy the more we pursue him. The continued instability in Afghanistan caused by the ongoing American and NATO occupation is the source of much of Pakistan's current problems. If we truly want to eliminate Osama Bin Laden, we would do well to withdraw from Afghanistan, and work with Iran, Pakistan and the former Soviet Central Asian republics, as well as the Taliban, to bring a sense of normalcy back to this tortured country. In doing so, it would become self-evident to all parties that any continued role on the part of Osama Bin Laden would be self-defeating, and he would be dealt with appropriately by those best equipped to do so.
This, of course, is the last policy direction being pursued by any of the candidates seeking election to the office of President of the United States. The bravado of the respective candidate's 'hunt Osama down until he is brought to justice' rhetoric is as empty as their promises to seek stability inside Pakistan, for the two are inherently contradictory policy directions. To pursue one is to fail on the other. But, as has been the case with Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran beforehand, one would be foolish to believe that the people of the United States, let alone those they seek to elect to higher office, would deign to formulate policy with the reality of the region in question, and not the American domestic political dynamic, in mind. Today, in the Middle East and Southwest Asia, America flounders in a sea of uncertainty and sorrow. Sadly, there is no good reason to believe that any future Captain of our Ship of State will be any more successful in navigating the challenges of the Pakistan Conundrum.
Scott Ritter was a Marine Corps intelligence officer from 1984 to 1991 and a United Nations weapons inspector in Iraq from 1991 to 1998. He is the author of numerous books, including "Iraq Confidential" (Nation Books, 2005) , "Target Iran" (Nation Books, 2006) and his latest, "Waging Peace: The Art of War for the Antiwar Movement" (Nation Books, April 2007).
© 2008 TruthDig.com



29 Comments so far
Show AllFact: Pakistan has nukes.
Fact: The US helped, or at least turned a blind eye, to Pakistan getting nukes.
Fact: Pakistan's ISI aided, armed and assisted the CIA creation Al Quaeda in Afghanistan.
Fact: Pakistan WAS a democracy. At least until Gen. Parvez Musharrif, with US backing and assistance, overthrew the elected government of Benazir Bhutto.
So what we have is an unstable CIA backed junta government with ties to militant radical 'terrorists', that is in possesion of nuclear weapons, and that very likely just assassinated the only viable opposition leader, probably with (surprise, surprise) CIA help. That just happens to share a border with the Bushco junta's enemy du jour Iran.
Oh yeah.... can't see this set up coming a mile away.
Bend over, grab your ankles, and kiss your ass goodbye America.
We can't expect candidates to tell us the whole truth, or to do the right thing once elected. If they told the truth they would lose the election. If they did the right thing when elected, they would lose the Big Money support and their power as the corporate media would descend upon them like they did with Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton (who learned his lesson, bowed and now plays golf with GHWB, and whose wife is a presidential candidate backed by Rupert Murdoch). Direct democracy is the only way I see to circumvent the power of the oligarchy.
"The ISI made an effort to convince the Taliban to turn Osama Bin Laden over to a neutral third party so he could be tried for the 9/11 attacks, but this offer was rebuked by the Taliban leadership."
A little-mentioned aspect of the whole sorry saga - given enough incentive/cash, the Taliban would have handed OBL over to the US. But that would have taken away GWB's casus belli for invading Iraq - Saddam's supposed links to Al Qaida
Why would the Taliban return a known CIA asset to his handlers?
@ Galen please get your facts straightened out.
Musharraf did not over throw Benazir, He deposed Nawaz Sharif who had illegally sacked him as Chief of General Staff while Musharraf was on plane comming back from Sri Lanka. Benazir was deposed both times by civilian presidents (Ghulam Ishaq Khan & Farooq Leghari) that she had appointed on corruption and mis-managemnt charges that were then upheld by the Pakistani Supreme Court.
I am sick of this myopic bashing that Pakistan gets on CD.
US of A is as much responsibe for the mess that is now no longer restriced to Afghanistan & Pak tribal areas but has spilled into major urban areas of Pakistan.
FACT: Taliban was created by the ISI with CIA's blessing and Saudi funding to do Uncle Sam's bidding i-e pacify Afghanistan so that UNOCAL (US oil co.) could lay an oil/gas pipe line out of central asia to the araibian see. Please read Ahmad rashid's book "The Taliban". ISI did not fund or support Al-Qaeda. ISI did train Kashmiri/Afghan groups for proxy war in the Indian Occupied Kashmir (just like US's involvement with Contra rebels in Central America). These groups later became affliated with Al-qaeda. Once major saudi funding for taliban stopped, Osama stepped in to foot the bill. He then became indespensable to the Taliban and ISI lost control of the hedious monster it was partly responsible in creating.
Another Fact that is never looked at is why did Pakistan get nuclear weapons???? because its very hostile eastern neighbor developed/acquired nuclear weapons under the subterfuge of "peaceful" civilian nuclear program and nobody (read weatern world) did anything concrete to stop or contain that.
I think I have started ranting. The point I was making was Pakistan is not solely responsible for all the ssues that are happening in Afghanistan/Pakistan. Yes it is part of pakistan's foerign policy "blowback" just as 9/11 is US's blowback.
Peace!!!!!!
PakMan,
You just summarized the article. I don't believe Scott
Ritter is bashing Pakistan more than it bashes the western foreing policies that have helped to create the current mess.
UNOCAL had plans to build an oil pipeline through the mountainous areas of eastern Afghanistan and then south through the tribal areas of Pakistan to the Arabian Sea to bring out oil from the Caspian Basin so it could be sold by U.S. based and U.K. based multinationals. Chevron owns UNOCAL now. Could that have something to do with our army being there to "stabilize" region?
I have some news for the NeoCons and Breshinski - They have already lost. China and Russia now both have pipelines to the Caspian Basin and plenty of dollars.
Support our Troops - Bring them Home Now!
The usually astute Ritter, like many US-based analysts, leaves out the role that the US -- through the CIA -- played in creating and directing the ISI both during the Cold War and during the disastrous 1970s-1980s Afghanistan debacle when we consciously decided, under both Carter and Reagan, to arm, fund and supervise the mujahadeen movement, which morphed into the Taliban and Al Queda, among other things.
Ritter also leaves out the role that the US played in helping, if not ordering, Pakistan to create a nuclear capability to threaten non-aligned India, which we viewed as a Soviet client state.
This context is needed, if we are going to discuss our role today.
Things left out by the author, things added in the comments.
Glad to be a part of the discussion.
I'll plan to read The Taliban. Does anyone have suggestions for books about Pakistan?
Thanks PakMan you summed it up well. I'm married to an Afghan and the Afghans are undergoing the same pain.
"Speak softly and carry a big stick".... We should make it clear that if you play with fire, we WILL burn you. Thank chimpy and that Bhutto bitch for the toilet we call pakistan.
I did not mean to say Ritter was bashing Pakistan, rather some posters who thing Pakistan is the root of all problems in South Asia.
@ gyptian: I would disagree with you on both counts i-e Pakistani policies being responsible for everything as well as nuclear weapons. If anybody read "Charlie Wilson's War" or even saw the movie, would have figured out that US was willing to spend upwards of a billion $ on suppling all sorts of weapons to the Afghan Mujahiddeens but would not even spend a million $$$ on reconstruction of a school! Had even half the money spend on the war been spent of Afghanistan's reconstruction and to de-weaponise and educate the afghan people I am pretty sure we would have had a totally different outcome. Same thing started to happen in Bosnia where after the conflict you had a lot of non-bosnian muslims from Arab states who knew nothing but fighting all their lives. The bosnians where pretty quick to sort that issue out and all the money poured into Bosnia made sure that a generation that knew nothing but war had some hope in their lives.
Pakistan had to do what it did vis-a-vis the Soviet Invasion. Most in Pakistan (myself included) believe that Pakistan was the next stop on Soviet march. Pakistan had to counter it unfortunately the results of decisions taken then are bearing fruit now with a state of 170 million in turmoil.
You also need to see the historic perspective of Afghan / Pakistan dynamic to understand Pakistan's support for Taliban. Afghanistan, since Pakistan's independence has been very hostile to it. It was actually the last nation in the UN to recognise Pakistan and even opposed Pakistan become a UN member. Afghanistan considers the Durand Line (Pak/Afghan) border as being illegal since it was negotiated b/w Afghanistan and the British. They actually lay claim to major part of the Western NWFP province which is like Mexico claiming Texas, california, Arizona as part of Mexico. They maybe correct but 200 years too late. Taliban in Pakistan's opinion gave them the option of a friendly pashtun controlled Afghanistan that could give Pakistan the luxury of a peaceful relatively unguarded western border to concentrate on the eastern border. Unfortunately that went horribly wrong and you ended up with a monster.
You also need to know that Pakistan absorbed over 3 million Afghan refugees who still live in Pakistan and are a huge strain on the economy but even now when Pakistan gets blamed for all of Afghanistan's woes had the pakistanis called for their expulsion.
As far as the nuclear weapons go, if you have a hostile neighbor that had undermined your very existence and you knew that you could not match it numerically what would you do?? smoke the peace pipe?????
"The point I was making was Pakistan is not solely responsible for all the ssues that are happening in Afghanistan/Pakistan. "
I disagree with this statement though. I think Pakistani policies vis-a-vis Afghanistan and India are responsible for the current crisis. I do not mean the Pakistani people as they unfortunately do not have a say in anything. The Pakistani Military and ISI are responsible for this and cannot suddenly absolve themselves of the blame !
As for the nuclear weapons conundrum I think no country in the world (most of all the U.S.) should own nuclear weapons of any sort. But 'my neighbour has it so i need it' argument would only mean the entire world would eventually have to go nuclear.
The oil pipeline issue is more recent as U.S. involvement with willing and needy Pakistani dictators goes back 50 years or more. I understand the frustration of non-resident Pakistani nationals who have to undergo this Pakistan-bashing by the media but to claim that Pakistan is the innocent victim of U.S. interests is only part of the whole story. The insidious support by a long stream of Pakistani leaders to terrorists/jihadis/fundamentalists of all stripes is well catalogued and terrorism-as-state-policy has clearly failed.
"I Dunno…
I read Haaretz, the Guardian, and similar-here (which include only 'dry&misleading-facts', when/if supportive of our accepted Status-Quo, and only US/Israeli PoV's), I read nearly-all the related Commentary-here (mostly stuff&nonsense, if mostly "well-motivated"), and I also read many articles/PoV's like: http://www.chycho.com/?q=gaza (equally 'wrong' regards facts-on-ground and History and ignorance regards the Principals, http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7693 being far-more relevant and accurate).
[What really 'should' be read, by most who remain 'confused', is 'real-History' — such as found/begun by clicking on my Name]
What, really, is SO damn 'hard to understand' about all the related History, underlying-Issues, present-Situations, or likely-Outcomes?
[And, why is so very-much obscured everywhere with so much religious&'moral'-drivel, anti&pro-'terrorist' propaganda, and failed-insights?]
After all, the Facts, History, Economics, and Human-Nature involved in everything make ALL of the related-Histories, since at-least the 'Age of Enlightenment' so "crystal-clear", that I am left Appalled by just how-little most people today can 'see' and/or grasp — regards the "big-picture", Intents&Interests, and/or "Quo vadis", much less "Quo Bono". [It ain't Rocket-Science, people…]
The Palestinians and/or poor-Islamics in-general are NOT headed towards any 'concentration camps' or 'destruction' (although all Balkanization of their populations is 'handy'/efficient, currently). This should be quite-and-very Obvious from the simple fact that Israeli/European-Zionists/'Realists' found under-800K so-called Palestinians when they Founded their so-called Homeland in British-Palestine, and today -- there are almost 8-million Palestinians. That's MORE than the number of Jews/X-ians (combined) in all of modern(non-Ersatz)-Israel — so if 'Extermination' was the Goal of Iszi's (who are inarguably militarily-supreme and the 'most-ruthless'/best-Funded in the ME), then they are notably-and-remarkably 'inefficient' — are they not? [I'll call this Powerful but mostly-Secular/minority-subgroup "Iszi's" (Israeli-Zionists) or just "Realists" (their fellow-travelers), henceforth — PLEASE don't continue to confuse them, these self-proclaimed 'Ideologist-Supermen', with all the varied and decent/majority 'Jews' or 'Westerners' or 'Christians'. Although Western and true/(academically)blue-blooded "neos" (of the Lib/Con variety, like Z.B.&H.K.) ARE, most-often and 'conveniently', Iszi's/Realists, also]
In Reality, the Jews of Israel have always 'needed' compliant and made-subservient Palestinians FAR more than they needed welcomed American-aid, water-rights, or 'X-ian-Rationales' for Existence of their State, post-Holocaust. Modern-Israel, and the subsequent 'miracle' of their agriculture, industrialization, rapid-growth of their entire-Infrastructure and militaristic-Security would have been impossible without a cheap/subjugated Labor-Pool provided by the Palestinian under-class (our fine-country, also, would never have been 'made Great' nor have achieved its own 'Manifest-Destiny' Mythos and stature without similar-here — slaves and near-Slaves far more populous-than, but subservient-to, a Ruling Class and Elite). There simply was _no_ mythical and contrived 'Palestinian-terrorism' during most of that post-War period in Israel — until a mass-influx of cheap/skilled/Russian-Immigration [pre-arranged] made those still-internal Palestinians 'less-needful' and allowed/'excused' the Iszi's to 'regretfully' herd-them-up into Balkanized-concentrations in their 'won' Gaza/WB, while ridding Jerusalem of their influence/'Claim'-there, as well. The Mossad and the Knesset [a nice 'present', itself, from the Rothschild's — much like their Flag] created and propagandized 'Palestinian-terrorism' [another Present, an "oldie but a goodie"] -- primarily to facilitate all-of-that (and, of-course, the popular and most-useful Present Tool for all the concomitant/shared-Interests with all their fellow 'neos'/Iszi's/Realists in the energy-fixated and Corporate-West), and Palestinians will now shortly be completely 'contained'. They will become the future and controlled 'poor-neighbors and populous-Suzerainty of an entirely-cleansed' Ersatz-Israel. By henceforth pretending to be 'helping' those who All the World agrees that Israel has Harmed, this soon-to-be Industrialized (while kept-poor and highly-controlled) 'local labor-pool' will thereafter become "Israel's China" — only whole-lot 'closer'. And, all Threats of/for any 'Twin-State Solution' and other Nonsense-Ideals within Israel-proper (not 'Ersatz' or Iszi-thinking) will be lost in History's-Dustbin due to the "needful security-concerns" which will accompany this walled-in and enforced Colonialization.
To 'simplify'[for any 'reading/History-challenged']…
"Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness…" is certainly Sacrosanct and Credo to these Elite and Powerful/Wealthy — who have ALWAYS directed most World-affairs — including, most-assuredly, these "Caballed-Vipers" we now so-knowingly call Zionists or Globalists, or 'neo-Libs/Cons' or Realists [Iszi's, if you will]. But, with a 'wink' and maybe a 'secret hand-sign', they always have meant these 'Inalienable Rights' to apply ONLY to their own tiny-Cadre and Class, and extended-Family.
The VAST-majority of Americans and Israelis, native-Americans and Palestinians, whites and blacks, Jews and Gentiles (and on-and-on, ad nauseam), are in-fact the NICEST folks you could ever want to meet. [If you are Traveled or Educated/wise, then you already know-this, Yes?] All Humans are generally Hard-working, 'motivated', concerned with Justice and fair-minded and Ethical — we "Are All One" (and, have always been-so). However, getting US to believe-in and 'do' Their dirty-work, while surrendering to Them most of our-Rights and Wealth and Sovereignty, has ALWAYS been "Job-#1″ for these Elite and Ruling-Classes — as enabled by 'our'/Their Ideological-'leadership'.
You also well-know their Tools long-involved in this historic process — among them religion, nationalism, racism, propaganda, 'shared'-booty, fear-tactics, an 'Imperative for Defense' against any/all and Inferior 'barbaric-or-evil Enemies', etc., et al. However, even 'Knowing those Tools and Who wields-them best' has OBVIOUSLY never Protected us from 'Them' — in-fact, the more-we-Know, the easier we then are to manipulate henceforth. We all-of-us then help to mute any Voice of Reason (by means and implementation of such Farces, above), and our Dissonance/Divisions can then be and are-thus Created between us All.
For 'People ARE Sheeple', and we DO want to be Sheared … it spares us all the odious Tasks of bettering-Ourselves and/or Others, figuring anything-out, self-educating ourselves, or of "having to actually think", period. So, we usually delegate these many-others to Think for Us — and then we get seemingly 'Appalled and Outraged' (occasionally and ineffectively) when They take-Advantage of "...the People", here or elsewhere? [It is to Laugh!]
Look … all Empires, all Nation-Builders, all Founders — everywhere and everywhen — ALL are based upon an Elite taking advantage-of and using those same and efficacious and aforementioned Tools to shear their-People and (with Luck!) ever-more Others — also ad nauseam. NOTHING is new/'neo' under the Sun, my friends…
We Farmed, then we 'had' to defend our immovable and invested-in nouveau-Wealth from 'greedy-others'. That gave-rise to class-systems allowing Specialization rather than all just continually 'grubbing for food'. Tribes then City-states followed naturally, and grew increasingly Patriarchal and 'faith-based' as hierarchies, and acculturated/differentiated by Choice — so Monarchy/Oligarchy was no real 'surprise', thereafter. Following 'Civilizations' required portable/symbolic-Wealth and Leadership, also — and competition for-All, and increasingly, as Individuals and Nation-States have written-History ever-since.
What's so hard to understand about Human-Nature made inverse to Population?
Zionism, since the induced/required Age of Enlightenment/'revolutionary'-Periods, has been the most visibly-utilized and efficient-Tool, ever, for a Globalist-Elite. Some purportedly 'most-Christian', some claiming to be 'Other Peoples of the same-Book' [like Ashkenazic-'Jewry' and 'radical'-Islamics, neither 'true' to their purported-'Faiths' or Lineage]. However, the 'real' Elite and the Globally-Wealthy are Themselves primarily Secular — worshiping only Power&Wealth, which they've always-had in abundance and have hereditarily-Horded and amassed. They've the best-educations and pedigree's among us for Their 'jobs', control nearly Everything for their-own Interests, and we LOVE them for it. We SO love and admire Them that we all but Canonize-them.
The Bilderbergers, the CFR and TLC, the Rothschild's, the Rockefeller's, a Bush-or-Clinton, our Popes/Rabbis/Ayatollahs, our 'world-leaders' and Celebrities, our philosophers/poets/artists/Thinkers, our Revolutionary and our Counter-Revolutionary Leaders … we Love them all (Actors and Resistors alike), and we always-will. They are either (and most-likely) 'born to their Class/Fortunes', or they are carefully-selected/vetted as the "best&brightest" among-us to enter their Rhodes-scholarships and Skull&Bones and diverse-other covert-Enterprises (like the CIA &Mossad&MI-6&ISI, or the UN, or Banks/Trading-Concerns/Corporations, or varied-Governments and Families and Ivory-Towers).
Blacks, the '3rd-World', 'Savage-Natives' (everywhere), Indians (E-or-W, no real-difference), the 'poor of the World', the 'stupid' (internally, or externally), the Palestinians/Afghans/Iraqis/Turks/Armenians of the ME, the indigenous-or-imported underclass in South America/Central America/Caribbean, the 'hungry-and-disunited' of Asia, the 'trailer-trash' and 'supported' or rural&urban-'worker-drones' and immigrant&naturalized-'sovereigns' of even-America or Europe (joined, lately, by the post-War/short-lived 'middle-income' within, that never-really-was) — all are the favored 'Victims' for the rapacious-Appetites of our Elite, and enable the endless-Quest for Their Interests and well-being.
But…
Was it EVER any 'different'?
Would we WANT it 'any-different', really?
We have ALWAYS traded-away the Opportunity for Plenty and Abundance and Peace for the 'Dream' of entering that Elite, ourselves (or of being 'favored by it' in rewarded-return for our Loyalty or lick-spittle subservience — the same-difference).
From the G_d-Kings of ancient Ur to the "Bush's Brains" of Rovian-Ideologues and all the multiple Advisers and 'Think-Tanks' and Corporate-heads and International-Financiers and Iszi's and Leaders and Realists serving-Them of today — have we really ever WANTED to stop being 'Their' Victims?
[I think 'not'…its far too-much like 'Work' to start thinking for ourselves and 'controlling our own lives' by eliminating the Mythos they control us with, and developing our own&beneficent Ethos and Logos]"
Scott, here, stirs-up more Dissonance than he adds for any actual Solutions (perhaps unintentionally, but such is the Military-mindset...one I once shared with him, due to similar-backgrounds).
The 'answer' is for ALL to start 'thinking for themselves', fact-checking, and maybe actually understanding the History-involved [or, as another famous-American (now Directing Veteran-healthcare) once said: "A Mind is a terrible-thing..."].
I just think of George Harrison's concert for Bangledesh and wonder "what the fuck has happened?" Those people did more for that region than any
political head of state has done since. Bhutto claimed that the "Islamabomb is more important than food" I say we cut them off, let them beg for food.
Chimpy is an asshole
Hang Jane!
PakMan is correct as to the fact that the Prime Minister who dismissed General Pervez Musharraf at the time was Nawaz Sharif. Nawaz had just won a landslide victory over the PPP led by Benazir Bhutto & certainly had the legal power of dismissal & had Musharraf accepted the supremacy of elected civilian control in the same way that General Douglas MacArthur accepted dismissal by an elected civilian namely President Harry Truman, then we would not now have to comment on a Pakistani dictator who has become so desparate he has, quite illegally of course, dismissed all independent judges including the Supreme Court Chief Justice along with practically all practising advocates of an independent bent & abrogated the Constitution of Pakistan which has no provision for its abrogation.
So I guess Pervez Musharraf can feel a noose tightening around his neck for treason!
Ritter isn't bashing all Pakistanis. His comments about the leadership of the country, and the military and intelligence services, are accurate. However, it is also clear that the radicalization movement that fostered the Taliban has its roots in the now saintly Jimmy Carter's schemes to foil the Soviets in Afghanistan, continued enthusiastically by Reagan. And even now, our efforts merely fuel the flames of extremism and hatred of us. The best thing for us to do is disengage militarily, offer humanitarian and other peaceful assistance through moderate local groups, and let things settle down. This isn't a matter of black and white, good guys and bad guys, westerners and Asians, Judeo-Christian and Muslim societies. It's a matter of the cynical use of power by corrupt, amoral elites on both sides.
Part of Pakistan was carved up out of Afghan territory and the other out of India hence the dilemma of the Durrand Line with Pashtuns on both sides of that line. I agree with Gyptian that its not the Pakistani people its the corrupt officials in the military and ISI that are the Taliban's sponsors a trend that started under Bhutto and continued please see http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB227/index.htm . Unfortunatly much of the American aid that Pakistan was given to fight the war on terrorism most of it ended up in the pockets of the ISI via corruption who then turned around and used that money to arm the Taliban. They should have used that money as it was intended for development of schools and the economy in Waziristan as this might have prevented terrorism. Instead the Pakistani ISI is playing a nasty double game promising the Americans various things while secretly undermining Afghanistan's existence by supporting the Taliban with weapons, shelter and training. Pakistan really did not have any business influencing Afghan political affairs and there is no justification for its past and current meddling. My husband is an Afghan minority, a Tajik, and his people suffered greatly under the Taliban and the Taliban and Al Qaeda killed his people's leader, Ahmed Shah Masood in 2001 2 days before 911. The Hazara minorities were also massacred under the Taliban in a genocide in Bamiyan, and don't get me started on the Bamiyan Buddhas those Taliban bastards destroyed, the cultural heritage of all Afghans.
I think the people of both Afghanistan and Pakistan want to live together in peace. Its the ISI that does not want this.
Afghanistan does not have nukes but Pakistan's nukes if they fell in the wrong hands would be aimed at Kabul and Karzai. I think we all know this. Pakistan seeks to control Afghanistan as a back-base to retreat to in the event of a war with India.
My husband was one of those 3 million refugees that were treated lower then dirt by the Pakistanis. He got shaken down on a daily basis by corrupt policemen and other Pakistanis demanding money. They do this to the Afghan refugees all the time. He had to give up all his rupees on the plane to the USA because a corrupt offical came on the plane and said to him to give him all his money or he had to leave the plane. My poor husband did and vowed never to go back to Pakistan as a result. There is no sense of brotherhood as fellow Muslims there.
PakMan -- "would have figured out that US was willing to spend upwards of a billion $ on suppling all sorts of weapons to the Afghan Mujahiddeens but would not even spend a million $$$ on reconstruction of a school!"
I agree but to extend this argument further, the $10 Billion the U.S. has given Pakistan these last 7 years has definitely been spent on weapons and other stuff but I seriously doubt any schools were constructed !
While the creation of the Taliban was in Pakistans strategic interests it decimated Afghan society. Im not buying the 'what would you do' argument unfortunately. Afghanistans claim to the NWFP region is valid but like you said 'squatters rights' are paramount !
Pakistans insecurity has more to do with the internal system and the fact that there is no civil or social instituitions and a complete lack of Democracy. Other than the military there has never been strong civic instituitions. The Judiciary is compromised and the Media is a mouthpiece for the administration (very much like our very own Media !!). Blaming the neighbours for these problems is inaccurate and counterproductive.
As for the ISI ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/world/asia/15isi.html?scp=3&sq=
dcbeltway and other readers who posted need to keep in mind that the ISI is not called a CIA front by plenty of critical analysts with historical knowledge most of us lack for no valid reasons. If it wasn't for the strong and very much covert criminal and imperialist interference and controlling influence of the U.S. in Pakistan's affairs, internal and foreign, then the people of Pakistan would have a far better chance of finally achieving the sort of govt they wish to have.
The same applies in many other countries, including in the U.S.A. itself; where it is NOT The People but ruling elites who govern the govt, its bureaucratic aspects, including allowing Bush to treat the Constitution as if it's just some ordinary piece of paper with nothing important on it.
So while dcbeltway may be wholly accurate from what her husband could tell her, this does not mean that there are not any important matters going on or involved and which he is not aware of.
It's not like we could expect the elites to just come right out and tell us what they're doing; it'd be good if they would or did, but don't count on them doing this. MUCH is secret.
The articles I posted links for above maybe can help people like mcpete who seems to not know where the toilet is; not in Pakistan, but where mcpete resides (I assume U.S.A. anyway).
One thing we should recognise in the West and of peoples like these of Pakistan is that there's a BIG difference between us; yes, there is. When they're angry about state bs, then they really do know how to stage protest demonstrations; UNLIKE in the West, where activism seems quite or very DEAD, non-existant, and if that's representative of the West's "souls", then "soulless West!", awfully.
dcbeltway, and while I'm saying this based on only what I've read, is right about the Taliban having ruled too harshly when they had the govt of Afghanistan, and which was only possible due to the long U.S. history, very much covert, with the Taliban and Al Qa'ida. But to say this of the Taliban and not mention the much worse warlords the Taliban helped to keep in check, this is NOT good; it's again to mislead readers who know too little about the past 20-30 years of Afghan history, and who the U.S. and West have now put into power in Afghanistan, warlords worse than the Taliban were.
AS FOR THE TALIBAN HANDING OVER OSAMA BIN LADIN; they apparently did. They didn't want war with the U.S., had had nothing at all to do with 9-11, as Bush stated before he and his administration launched war on the Taliban and while the UNSC refused to authorise this war action, and were ready to hand over OBL. But they had one condition, which was that they wanted to be assured that he'd be put through a just legal process.
They apparently did finally obtain that "assurance" and then tried to hand him over to the Pakistani govt, but it refused; after having become partner with the U.S. in the GWoT. And given how much of CIA, etc., there is with regards to the Pakistani military and ISI, we can rest assured that the Bush administration surely knew Pakistan rejected taking OBL from the Taliban. (This was not acceptable in the West's "game plan".)
Afghanistan is a country rich in natural resources; not for oil, for which the country will only serve for an oil pipeline, maybe also a pipeline for natural gas, but for mining resources, I guess minerals and gems.
It's also in Central Asia, southern part of it I guess, so is also another strategic location for more U.S. and Western military build-up, one that's encroaching on Russia and China.
Of course Pakistan is strategically key for the U.S. ruling elites in all of this, therefore.
And it's about the only thing that can be said of very nearly ALL U.S. wars throughout U.S. history.
The real ruling elites have BIG PLANS and they're very real and aren't achieved overnight; it takes considerable time and a lot of investment(s). Well, the investment part is taken care of, by having taxpayers foot the bills and their children offer their lives up to serve what really are nothing but LIES and criminal orders. The ruling elites then only have the 'considerable time' part as an immediate concern to them, leaving they only need to be patient for their plans to come to or bear full (and rotten as hell) "fruition".
Just to be sure I was clear:
"(This was not acceptable in the West's "game plan".)"
The handing over of Osama Bin Ladin by the Taliban, that is, the receiving of him from them handing him over, this was not part of the "West's 'game plan'". They surely had a reaction defined, explicitly or inexplicitly, that is, as simply understood but unwritten rule, in their plans in case the Taliban accepted to hand him over, and it's called the usual [censorship] (in reporting on real events) scheme; but there was surely no place in their plans for letting this become public knowledge and to take OBL into international custody. Doing that would've immediately meant that while the Bush administration had no justification, moral or legal, to attack the Taliban, there would've be far less justifiability.
After all, then everyone could say, "But Bush said the Taliban had not had anything at all to do with 9-11 and left it clear that the only reason he was fingering them out was due to their association with Osama Bin Ladin, who's now in international custody, and who is the person the Bush administration has said is responsible for 9-11; therefore, the Taliban are now cleared as far as these specific terms, i.e., the 9-11 attack on the U.S., is the issue".
The ruling elites had other plans for Afghanistan, and of course these being criminal they could not be made public knowledge; had to be kept secret, above 'top secret' too. Not even people who officially have 'top secret' clearances are allowed to know the secrecies of the top ruling elites; well, except for those who are criminally instrumental, of course. But even the latter aren't told everything; only being told secret information on a basis that is of the order of, absolutely needing to know, for he or she can't be instrumentally useful without knowing the part of the information that is pertinent to whatever role this instrumental servant will be specifically charged with carrying out (and everyone serving under that person's external authority just needs to follow orders, to be a "good" and naive "dumb animal" (as Kissinger thinks)).
The fewer who are "in the know", the fewer risks there are of leaks or leakage; of course. And that also of course means that the pipes need to be kept as short as possible.
"But to say this of the Taliban and not mention the much worse warlords the Taliban helped to keep in check, this is NOT good; it's again to mislead readers who know too little about the past 20-30 years of Afghan history, and who the U.S. and West have now put into power in Afghanistan, warlords worse than the Taliban were."
Wow ! Not even Mullah Omar or Baitullah Masud can defend the Taliban better than you have. They seem to have a good spokesperson in you. None of the previous warlords were even close to being as bad as the Taliban. Sure, highway robberies have reduced but the stranglehold the Taliban had/has on Afghan society is worse than anything we can imagine. Your post reads like a cheaper imitation of a Kafka novel. Im sure 'palace intrigue' is part of the CIA/ISI/Mullah nexus, but to blame U.S. imperialist/colonialist designs alone is not enough. As bad as U.S. complicity is in Afghan and Pakistani affairs, to give the Mullahs and the Pakistani dictators a free pass is galling to say the least and completely inappropriate and inaccurate.
Now that I've read Ritter's article, it seems very good, but he doesn't say what his sources of information are and he's surely not former CIA analyst and with many years experience, particularly specifically related experience. He's a former U.S. Marine and a U.N. weapons inspector.
And he doesn't mention the CIA at all, so much less about how tight the CIA and ISI were and are, and that, f.e., when the ISI armed, trained, ... mujahideen, this is said, by non-msm corp. media sources, to have also very much been the CIA doing this, and that the U.S. strongly enough backed the Taliban in the war against the USSR and stayed in relations with the Taliban and Al Qa'ida since.
From what I've read from other sources than Ritter, the U.S. had minimally much to do with the Taliban coming to power in Afghanistan, so of the sole three countries that Ritter says accepted the Taliban govt, the U.S. must surely be one of the other two countries. I wonder why he didn't name those two countries, for it'd be very easy and quick to do, and would answer reader questions that are of expectable kind (unless the writers mistakenly think the readers will only be reading and listening to the msm corp. kind).
It's ODD that he'd omit that piece of information, which is probably easy enough to find with some Web searches.
Ritter's article is going to be stored among my resource bookmarks on this overall topic, for the article seems to provide cultural, ethnic, historical, ... information of the kind I like to read or learn about (and hopefully not forget).
But I recommend reading the articles I provided links for in my first post in this page.
gyptian's responding based on my post.
QUOTE: "gyptian January 17th, 2008 2:50 am
...
Wow ! Not even Mullah Omar or Baitullah Masud can defend the Taliban better than you have. They seem to have a good spokesperson in you. None of the previous warlords were even close to being as bad as the Taliban. Sure, highway robberies have reduced but the stranglehold the Taliban had/has on Afghan society is worse than anything we can imagine. Your post reads like a cheaper imitation of a Kafka novel. Im sure 'palace intrigue' is part of the CIA/ISI/Mullah nexus, but to blame U.S. imperialist/colonialist designs alone is not enough. As bad as U.S. complicity is in Afghan and Pakistani affairs, to give the Mullahs and the Pakistani dictators a free pass is galling to say the least and completely inappropriate and inaccurate."
SORRY GYPTIAN, for you gypped your readers out of credible information by not providing any sources for this so-called expert knowledge you have. I've provided en masse links in all of my posts here and people just have to apply a little will and energy of their own to read more at these websites.
PLENTY OF respected analysts, etc., say as I did and much more about the Taliban and Afghan warlords. The northern alliance of warlords is known worldwide, yet you seem to be the sole person to be in the dark about this.
What you're really illustrating is not being pro-Afghans, but pro-Western imperialism, for it is this set of powers that have, with this war on Afghanistan, put the worst heroin traffickers and warlords of Afghanistan into power.
MANY respected sources have been reporting this for several years already; yet you're in the dark about it all.
Experts on the topic would not think that I'm at all unique in what I wrote about the Taliban being harsh, unacceptably, but better than the even more brutal and heroin-trafficking warlords of northern Afghanistan. As some of these people say, the Taliban's control while in power was mainly in the South and a very poor area it is for growing poppies (used to produce opium from which heroin, morphine and other opiates are made, in case you're also in the dark about this topic that plenty of other respectable people have written on).
With the Taliban and U.N. working together, the heroin or poppy production was reduced by 90% or more, but has skyrocketed with the Western imperialists' war on Afghanistan and starting very shortly after 9-11.
Also unaware of these little details, too, gyptian? If so, then you perhaps work for the Western imperialists and spend little time reading outside of msm corp. news media. And if that's the case, then you're not one to consider credible.
There's easily much you're not aware of, since you're unaware of something that's been reported by plenty of different sources that are independent from each other and are respectable; and for several years already.
And I never said that I was giving any FREE PASSES to the Pakistani govt and ISI; they're your words, not mine. What I said is that the CIA is very tight with the ISI, and we can deduce from the fact that the U.S.A. is the world's superpower, still, for a little while longer, then this bears its own influence too.
CIA and U.S. govt being very tight in "special" ways with the Pakistani govt and its ISI is like this: IT TAKES TWO PARTIES TO TANGO, BUTTHEAD.
Well, on second thought, gyptian seems honest enough and therefore not one to suspect is working here announced and for the Western imperialists. So I'll take back that insinuation stated in my prior post.
But gyptian remains very uninformed, as said in my prior post. Not even being aware that plenty of respectable people have written on Afghanistan and the warlords the U.S. and NATO have now given more power status to; now this takes someone who's done very little reading from independent and non-msm corp. news sources.
One strong example of the extreme brutality of these warlords was one not even the most powerful of them ordered that cargo truck containers (or trailers) filled with Taliban be fill with holes to give the Taliban inside air to breathe; while the holes weren't made near the roof of the container. Nope; the holes were made or short right where the people inside would be slaughtered. And this was with U.S. command present, so criminally complicit in this act of expedient butchery.
Articles on that event and other articles mentioning the Taliban and the warlords of the north of the country provide other examples of the extreme and criminal, incredible brutality of the northern warlords. And that's while often naming only one of them, one who Craig Murray of the UK govt and possibly others have said to be the lesser of these warlords.
Don't take my word for it, and enough the same evidently applies with what gyptian thinks he has to say when he's not reading words into what others say. Instead, read from the certainly more or much more knowledgeable sources on this sort of information and from more than only one of them.
gyptian reads things into my words that I did not say and all while clearly forgetting that it does "take two parties to tango". Duh; as if tangos are danced by single individuals, instead of couples.
Before reading anything into other people's words, it's better to ASK QUESTIONS FIRST, to put off the shootings until you're reassured to have guessed correctly; at which point fire away, if it's still called for. Ask questions before thinking you're thinking with God's mind instead of your puny own, first.
Without questions, there is no research or analysis to do, for it requires questioning minds to be able to perform R&A.
Mike I know all this already. The War Lords suck as much as the Taliban they killed 50,000 people in Kabul alone during the civil war. My husband was there for that and lost friends. Both men and women were raped under the warlords and they recruited child soldiers. He wants them to be tried in the international criminal court Nuremburg style. Taliban did eliminate the opium and did bring some security with an Afghan internal ceasefire amongst the warlords, but their rule was far too harsh, brutal and it was a foriegn one backed by Pakistan's ISI and the Saudis.
Yes, everyone knows the ISI was created by the CIA that's obvious.
Yes, Afghanistan is rich in opium poppies, uranium and natural gas so I know all about those issues to. My knowledge on Afghanistan comes from both the community and documents books etc. UNOCAL has some representatives in the current gov't now.
I had dinner with two Afghan female friends in town from Kabul last night. They support Karzai. I do too as the alternative is warlordism or living under the Pakistani Taliban. Like Americans its the choice of a lesser evil they have to deal with. Afghans long for the days of self-rule under King Zahir Shah. Unfortunatly, the king is dead and those days are long gone. He was a great man with an excellent legacy of reform. Afghans remember him as the good old days.
Afghanistan is not Iraq. I say this a gazillion times on CD. Don't lump the two together. Afghanistan needs a Marshall plan and reconstruction. Afghanistan's neighbors need to stop meddling the US being there is the only thing keeping the Pakistanis from taking over the place again a la Syria and Lebanon. The Iranians are also sending weapons to the Taliban now too...mind you this was the same Iran that shared anti-Taliban intelligence with the US in 2001. Iran is feeling surrounded and this is why they are acting up.
I'd like to see an independent Afghanistan under self-rule again someday but right now Afghanistan cannot stand on its own two feet. This is unfortunate. I will also add most Afghans I am in touch with want our help and fear being abandoned like they were following the Soviet pullout.
I'd also like to add I hate Hekmatyar most of all.
corbeil--" filled with Taliban be fill with holes to give the Taliban inside air to breathe; while the holes weren't made near the roof of the container"
What they really should have done is filled the Taliban with holes and your friggin mentors wouldnt have lived long enough to come back and create all this mess again. The Taliban just got a feel for what its like living in a burqa ... you cannot breathe and there are tiny holes on top !
"CIA and U.S. govt being very tight in "special" ways with the Pakistani govt and its ISI"
This is exactly what ive been saying. Next time read first and shoot later. Your defense of the Pakistani Military/ISI and the Taliban puts you squarely in the ranks of the CIA/ISI/Taliban cheerleaders and we all know how thats going down. Get a grip ... your 'research' needs a heavy dose of reality.
As I remember it, the Taliban leaders publicly stated that they would hand over BinLaden, but not to the US, to a Muslim court.
Bush rejected this, and Americans accepted his frontier "dead or alive" posturing.
Of course, BinLaden was a US asset. There is no way they wanted him in prison. The Taliban could have brought him to Washington, DC and handed him over and he would have "escaped".