NBC Battles To Keep Kucinich Out of Las Vegas Debate
Some principles are worth fighting for: like the cherished right of television networks to decide who is and who is not a legitimate candidate for president.
NBC Universal Inc. is a major media conglomerate. And major media conglomerates have traditionally been able to police the parameters of presidential politics. Any affront to this order of affairs is a threat to the ability of corporations to define the American discourse.
That's what is at stake as NBC fights to limit the amount of information Nevada Democrats have available to them before they caucuses on Saturday to choose delegates to the Democratic National Convention. So the network has announced that its crack legal team will work through the night to overturn a judge's order that Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich be included in the last pre-caucus debate between the Democratic presidential contenders.
On the day after the New Hampshire primary, when New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson was still in the race, Kucinich, Richardson, New York Senator Hillary Clinton, Illinois Senator Barack Obama and former North Carolina Senator John Edwards were invited to participate in the debate scheduled to be televised on MSNBC from 9 to 11 p.m. Tuesday.
Debate organizers wanted Richardson in the forum and knew that they could not exclude Kucinich, who was running ahead of the New Mexican in several national polls. So they grudgingly contacted the Kucinich campaign, which participated last week in initial planning discussions for the debate.
But when Richardson dropped out of the race on Thursday, the network yanked the invitation to Kucinich, who has stirred up past forums -- and distinguished himself from Clinton, Obama and Edwards -- by calling for the rapid withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq, advocating for the impeachment of members of the Bush administration, and even discussing the damage done to the political process by media monopolies.
The Kucinich campaign sued NBC over the network's decision to conduct a closed debate. And Senior Clark County District Court Judge Charles Thompson ruled Monday that the congressman must be allowed to participate. Arguing that Nevada voters -- and, by extension, the Democratic nominating process in which they are playing a high-profile role -- would benefit by hearing from more than just NBC-favored contenders Clinton, Obama and Edwards, Judge Thompson said, "I don't think that just deciding that just three is good enough for the state of Nevada is a legitimate basis (for dropping Kucinich)."
"Had it been established at the beginning that they'll only take the top three for the debates, I wouldn't have any problem enforcing it," the judge explained to NBC's lawyers. "I'm somewhat offended that a legitimate candidate was invited to a debate and then uninvited under circumstances that appear to be that they just decided to exclude him."
How offended? Judge Thompson told the network's lawyers that any move to exclude Kucinich would lead him to issue an injunction to stop the televised debate.
This threat to its ability to police the discourse was an affront that NBC would not let stand. "We disagree with the judge's decision and are filing an appeal," declared Jeremy Gaines, a vice president for MSNBC, who announced that the cable channel's parent network would demand an immediate hearing before the Nevada Supreme Court.
Kucinich's lawyers will battle to preserve Judge Thompson's ruling, and the candidate's right to a participate in the forum. They have fewer resources, but are possessed of one commodity that the broadcast and cable network seem to lack: an understanding that democracy is best served by free and open debate.
© 2008 The Nation
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190 Comments so far
Show Allezeflyer January 17th, 2008 11:39 am
"Establishment Press" or "Business As Usual Press" works for me.
thank you amy for giving dennis his chance. wish you hadn't spent so much time airing the other three candidates' replies and given dennis more air time, but what the hell. we are all indebted to you. great idea!
and to agitkid. agreed. msm is now deleted from my vocabulary. in its place: fascist press? press-on press? piss press?
remember, folks: if everyone who claims "i agree with everything kucinich says but i'm not going to vote for him 'cause i don't think he's electable" would JUST GO AND VOTE FOR HIM who knows...he might actually get elected. it would, at least, send a hell of a message to the (D) party. besides, is there any REAL difference between the other three candidates? what have you got to lose?
Thank you, thank you, Amy Goodman. I'm grateful to hear Dennis Kucinich's comments in this revised Nevada debate. Please, please distribute far and wide so this voice is heard by the people. Will post the URL again for ease.
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/1/16/breaking_the_sound_barrier
ezflyer:
Excellent point. I'll quit using mainstream media and MSM from this point onwards. "capitalist" and "establishment" aren't good phrases, since they require a proper frame of reference to contextualize. I had a European instructor once who observed that it is primarily socialists who use the word "capitalist" and capitalists that use the word "socialist" (always in critique). Let's skip that whole problem.
"Corporate Press" is pretty good, because it's 100% objective. There is no denying or framing necessary. We should posit "corporate press" against the term "free press".
agitkid said:
"PLEASE stop calling it the "Mainstream Media." There is nothing mainstream about it, and the term assumes a sort of legitimate presence in the culture.
Here are some other suggestions which are far more accurate:
Establishment Press
Capitalist Press
Corporate Press (although this too is a bit benign as it doesn't illustrate their deep entrenchment with state policy and their commitment to this economic system, IMO)."
Great observation. Done and done.
Dennis Kucinich talks with Randi Rhodes about the NBC suppression.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32O5XEnyyNE&v3
well as a new registered voter here in Nevada I am postponing a week end trip just to vote in the caucus for Dennis, It's nice to come from the blue state of mass and assisting a red state go blue, corruption is what the US media is, but my conscious will be at peace when I leave this country knowing I voted for the right candidate.
Of course we all knew they were gonna pull some bullsh*t as we are up against the evil force that will not leave when bush goes.. it will prevail and so on and so on and so on..............
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/jan2008/kuci-j17.shtml
"Political motives determined the change in policy. NBC had issued its invitation to the Ohio congressman when former New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson was still in the race. The network wanted to include Richardson, whom the media deemed to be an acceptable figure, but since Kucinich was running ahead of the former governor in several polls, they couldn't very well bar Kucinich. Once Richardson dropped out, NBC felt free to exclude Kucinich."
DIEBOLD = 1984
DIEBOLD = 1984
DIEBOLD = 1984
I listened to DK on KPFK this morning with Amy Goodman, no small wonder the powers that be don't want him to debate. He rips the mask off Clinton, Obama and Edwards! Dennis Kucinich is the man. Why is he a Democrat?
I have to listen to Pat Buchanan over and over on NBC and MSNBC and I can't even hear from Dennis Kucinich on one night. I refused to watch that "debate." What a crock.
DENNIS KUCINICH IS GETTING MY VOTE!
Any "alleged" Democratic candidate who would not defend the "interests of the public" along with their "fellow" presidential running mates in a Democracy "of, by and for the people", does NOT deserve my vote!
Imagine.......if they are threatened by Kucinich, how do you think they'll respond when their corporate whore-master campaign supporters crack the whip?
kgarry,
Excellent letter to MSNBC.
Ever since Phil Donahue was taken off of the station, it was apparent that profitability wasn't the name of the game. Jeff Cohen who produced Donahue's show, said it was the biggest money maker for MSNBC, but when Phil "questioned" (this corrupt crime-ridden administration- these are my words, not Donahues) the reasons for invading Iraq, his show was promptly cancelled
Donahue has been one of my heros for decades, and when they gave him the heave-ho, I refused to watch that station anymore. I did watch Olbermann a few times but the latter segments which you described were hard to sit through, so I was not a regular viewer. LinkTV, FreeSpeechTV, The History Channel, The Documentary Channel, C-Span and a few others are much better, if you are going to watch tv.
Mr. Olbermann is no Edward R. Murrow, nor should he be. But if Keith admired Murrow, at least do the right thing like Murrow did.
Unfortunately, MSM "commentators" know who butters their bread.
The airwaves are part of the 'COMMONS" that belong to We The People.
blessthebeasts,
I agree. Randi Rhodes has come around very well as of late. She's savvy of "the fix that's in" with the Democrats.
Randi Rhodes is doing a great critique of the debate. She is nailing the "Top 3" for their votes on various issues (the war, the bankruptcy bill, nuclear power, etc.). They all whined about how much they regret their votes but she points out that DK voted right on all of them. It makes you want to cry.
kgarry--right on. Keith Olbermann--goodbye and good riddance.
kgarry, good post. Good on you.
sent this afternoon to MSNBC VP Gaines and Olbermann:
To: Jeremy Gaines & Keith Olbermann
Re: Excluding Denis Kucinich from the latest debate
We never miss "Countdown with Keith Olbermann". If we're out feeding the alley cats at 8 p.m., the DVR records it for us.
Consequently, MSNBC has become, along with Link TV, one of the very, very few channels we watch.
NO MORE!
Your regal attitude in barring Dennis Kucinich from the Nevada televised debate is the final straw. We could overlook the apparent humor Keith found in video of animals in distress and the growing number of segments on Ms. Britney Spears & other vacuous celebrities. We put up with the inanity of Oddball but would so much rather see more extensive interviews with guests, or more in-depth coverage of current events. Just when we thought that the same-old same-old Pillsbury Dough Boy (AKA Tim Russert)-type pundits (you know, the MSM-ITB - mainstream media-inside the beltway - punditry like Richard Wolf et al.) would be pushed off the screen and replaced with more incisive, savvy commentators like Rachel Maddow, she all but disappears, and now we have to look forward to your American Idol coverage. Your end-of-show VH1 "comedian" segments are AWFUL! But we stuck with it because of the show's first half.
NO MORE!
We've heard that Keith has much influence at MSNBC due to the growing popularity of his show. We expected him to make a case for including Kucinich. He shouldn't have had to.
These are not your airwaves and this is not your presidential election to control. We used to think that the media considered most Americans too stupid to deal with more than two parties (with two candidates each) at the same time. Now we wonder if it's the media personalities who can't handle anything more complex.
Rest assured we'll be working with others to wrest control of the debates from the hands of corporations and return it to the public arena.
Yes, you've lost these two dedicated viewers; we're sure you've lost many more. All for the price of one extra chair? Nah, it must be the advertising revenues from the pharmaceutical companies, and those related corporate interests, intent on keeping health care a for-profit industry in this country, or perhaps your parent company, GE, intent on making money supplying the world with military goods.
We fondly remember a media that kept news and advertising separate (or at least tried). Edward Murrow continues to frown in his grave.
DemocracyNow gives Kucinich a chance to respond to debate questions.
"Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich was missing from the stage at last night's Democratic debate hosted by MSNBC in Las Vegas after he lost a last-minute legal fight with the network over his participation. Last week, NBC told Kucinich that he had met the criteria for the debate. Then, less than two days later, the network changed the criteria and declared that Kucinich was no longer qualified. On Monday, a Nevada judge ordered NBC to include Kucinich, but then NBC appealed the ruling and actively fought to keep him off the stage. On Tuesday night, less than an hour before the debate, the Nevada Supreme Court sided with NBC. Democracy Now! decided to break the sound barrier and give Kucinich a chance to take part. In an exclusive broadcast, we re-braodcast excerpts of the debate and give the Ohio Congressman a chance to answer the questions he might have faced if he hadn't been silenced." [includes rush transcript–partial
Follow the link below:
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/1/16/breaking_the_sound_barrier_democracy_now
I agree with the majority of the posts. They are right on the mark, and MSM has way to much power. Deregulation has destroyed the free press.
As for t.v., it is my slave, not the other way around. I pick and choose, and use it like any other tool. No big deal, one way or the other.
How is that good for the environment?
In protest one should not undermine what Kucinich stood for. I presume that Kucinich believed in Kyoto.
What about protesting MSNBC's broadcasting licence? Or put the same restrictions on MSNBC's licence that the CTRC put on Aljazeera's (which made including it on cable to expensive).
Oh yeah, I think that we are doing that any way if we want laws that prevent Media corporations from monopolizing the market.
One way to show protest is to deliver a bunch of smashed television sets and dump them in NBC's foyer.
Since I couldn't access any of NBC's "contact us" portals. I posted my complaint with the technical assistance staff. Above recommended addresses were discontinued. They must be getting a lot of flak.
"I will be trying to come up with a new take on the whole system..."
Media wonks may make generalizations in private, but all we hear are more or less pre-planned assesments of quantitative phenomena. And everybody's outta breath. There oughta be 10 more guys like Christopher Liden out there with shows...I can barely remember Fred Friendly. Divergent thinking (remarked on by Schumacher) is not cool enough or hip enough as far as media are concerned. So, fundamentally democracy must not be either. It's all about being glib, clapping, and keep'n the Kucinichs off air. The one Thom Hartmann book I have (the Jefferson one) should've rocked a few boats--if someone would set up a real time net audio debate on his ideas I'd go get an MP3 player pronto just to play podcasts of same. Heard his new one is sort of alt to Lakoff, so that debate too.
dustinchicago, I hope and pray and new take materializes some way some time.
The fix is in people and DK is part of it. If he was serious about being an alternative/peace candidate he'd leave the war party. He may have the delusion that the Democrats can be reformed but the rise of the DLC and Clinton showed the true direction of the party.
The three heirs to Big Bill showed their true leanings when asked if they'd enforce laws that would cut federal support for colleges and schools if they fail to offer ROTC programs and allow military predators (recruiters) on campus. They all support allowing military predators to turn our youth into cannon fodder. It sounded to me like Obama will re-institute a draft. As a military contractor, GE has a vested interest in pushing a militarist agenda and excluding voices that challenge it, like the hapless Dennis Kucinich (who will sell out his principles and back the war party nominee).
EArthian, thanks, will take a look. Anyone have tape of Edwards last night?
RE: - This is quite amusing to see a member of the incumbent duopoly receive the kind of treatment that independent and third party candidates always receive. I don't recall DK ever speaking up about the exclusion of Ralph Nader from the 'bipartisan debates' in 2000 or 2004.
If he did, would they cover it? Again I ask - how does a case about the honouring of contracts turn into a case about the rights associated with corporate personhood? Does this mean that corporations have the right to break contracts with human persons with impunity?
RE: - Yeah Vaudree, I see that you do like computers.
I do. One would think that with a 17 inch screen that one would be able to devote half of it to the webpage and half of it to word documents but the webpages just keep getting wider and wider. Sometimes life sucks, but not always. Remember that.
Remember those seven basket ball players and coach's wife from Bathurst that died in the car crash a few days ago (even CNN reported it) - well it looks like parts of it will be televised. Usually the Eulogies are televised anyway. Something seemingly more cheerful than the debate I missed yesterday. Before a death means anything, one must know that they lived. What does the average person know about that candidate from Alaska?
RE: - The only one who beats all of the Republican candidates in the general is John Edwards.
CNN showed a very small bit of the debate (the NBC link did not work for me because son disconnected real media). They showed Obama and Clinton pretending to be friendly while getting their digs in. And a very short bit about Edwards trying to clarify his military position. He seemed to be avoiding the word "peace-keeping" while attempting to define it.
RE: - The polls were pretty accurate in Iowa and in Michigan they were right on. Thankfully the crooked Bible thumper, lost big time tonight in Michigan.
Huckabee, the guy who congradulated Canada on our National Igloo. Romney seems as scary in his own way. The idea that placing restrictions on corporations are causing all the problems in Michigan! How many of you were yelling "what about NAFTA" as he said that?
RE: - If Dennis Kucinich is not in with a chance, then WHY would they bother to exclude him?
Because his ideas stood a chance? And, for the record, that is not soiled gitch - it is a transcript of their latest newscast.
RE: - they have inadvertently elevated Kucinich to a level where perhaps Dennis will now be heard.
One can hope. Kucinich as the Dem against the Repug for the presidency would not stand a chance. They always try to portray the left of centre as "tax and spend" and to try to paint us as not being able to budget and potentially bankrupting the Province/State - even though it is usually the Conservatives which actually have done that. I don't see Kucinich surviving that attack. One has to be twice as good at budgeting than a Neo Con to be considered half as good.
RE: - Just throw out your TV set
Donate it to a hospital. If a kid is sick, the TV along with a donated Game Cube may be enough to keep them going stir crazy.
On The Nation someone wrote that there aren't many supporters of DK, that "most democrats believe in his issues" must be a bunch of hot air because of the terribly small donations and votes. Of course, he didn't campaign in Iowa, and NH was a "I better vote against" some candidate, in michigan DK's campaign did a terrible job of convincing people to vote for him since Edwards and Obama were off the ballot (of course there was not much time or money). Yes, I believe in DK. Yes, I think he runs a bad campaign, and has no money. Yes, I think all democrats agree with his issues but will never act on them and certainly will never vote for him (or any other person not crowned by the MSM/DLC).
This was the straw that broke an already very weak back of the DK campaign. And it seems that support for DK is mostly a lot of hot air and hot air doesn't do well against corporate lawyers. I expect republicans will do much better with their grassroots campaigns- God help us!- with Paul and Huckabee.
I will be trying to come up with a new take on the whole system and see where I can help fight corporatism in our electorate.
And DK will never leave the Party- he has been in it for his entire life, he wants to reform it, and (though he'd never admit it) they keep him employed, and keep treating him like dirt- which empowers him (just read his life story). Of course, I think stubborn punishment-liking radical reformist are much needed in the Establishment. I just wish....
Democracy Now on Wednesday today interviews Dennis Kucinich to allow him to respond to the debate last night from which he was banned. If you want to watch or listen or read the transcript go to http://www.democracynow.org for January 16.
The best thing DK can do now IS RUN AS AN INDEPENDENT. It's his BEST chance and he could win and make history and show these fascist bastards what it's all about. Why in the name of anything that is holy or unholy would he continue to run with a party that has failed to support him several times? The other candidates should hang their treacherous heads in shame for deserting their own!
Just throw out your TV set, or better yet - smash in front of NBC HQ.
If GE does not allow Kucinich to debate with the others than this means that GE and other major stockholders of MSNBC like Microsoft should not have our support. We should boycott their products in protest, they have no right to deny us democracy and alternative views on the issues so important to the future of our children and their freedom. If you are building a wind farm don't buy from GE buy from Vestas or some other Wind turbine manufacturer. If you have to buy GE light bulbs because they're the most efficient than at least don't watch NBC, read a book instead. The only way we can fight corporate fascism is by not consuming their products. I used to think GE and NBC was one of the better groups with a more liberal bent than the others I see I was wrong. I hope this goes to the Supreme court. This is one more reason to vote for Kucinich and one more reason not to vote for any of the other candidats who do not support Kucinich against NBC.
Why don't we just vote for the guy in protest. The Dems are going to win the White House whoever runs so why not just throw every vote to Kucinich in the primaries to let the other three know we're fed up and not going to take it anymore!! And, by the way, why didn't the others stick up for him?
Doesn't matter, Diebold will deliver the pre determined president in 08.
I would like to congratulate and thank NBC for making such embarrassing noise over excluding Dennis Kucinich from the Nevada debates this evening.
Now who is humiliated?
Not only has NBC soiled its own pants in public (isn't it funny!), they have inadvertently elevated Kucinich to a level where perhaps Dennis will now be heard.
What happened to Dennis in Nevada may turn out to be a very good thing for him, and for us all...
Keep fighting Dennis!
If Dennis Kucinich is not in with a chance, then WHY would they bother to exclude him?
diebold in 08
times for the masses to revolt
turn off your car
ride your bike....
Obtuse S|ot machine Vegas Judge had the unmitigated ga|| to say NBC/MSNBC/MS/GE were having their FIRST vio|ated!!! Their FIRST!!!!
I am Hating, so what say, Bi|| Gates next???? Mr. Phi|anthropist, assuage his gui|t, F@@KER!
Nevada Dem Party www.NVdems.com
100 B|ack Men of America www.100b|ackmen.org (my e||e is broken any |ink with it wi|| not work, sorry)
African American Dem I_eadership Counci| www.d|c.org
US Hispanic Chamber of Commerce www.ushcc.com
IMPACTO|_ (of the |as Vegas Chamber of Commerce) it wi|| not work (e||e)
Co||ege of Southern Nevada www.csn.edu
For everyone that says this one or that one is the on|y one that wi|| win due to such and such, come November go to the store and buy a #2 penci| and friggin' write it in. If a|| of the doomsday crew wou|d do it Kucinich wou|d win, no bout adoubt it, I mean no doubt about it.....
Yeah Vaudree, I see that you do like computers.
If Kucinich ran as an independant, Hillary would win the primary. Over ten good polls show that Hillary, Obama, or Kucinich, will NOT beat a Republican. The only one who beats all of the Republican candidates in the general is John Edwards. The polls were pretty accurate in Iowa and in Michigan they were right on. Thankfully the crooked Bible thumper, lost big time tonight in Michigan.
Dennis Kucinich should join the Green Party.
Someday they won't let you, now you must agree
The times they are a-telling, and the changing isn't free
You've read it in the tea leaves, the tracks are on TV
Beware the savage jaw
Of 1984!
David Bowie
What if DK ran as an Independent?
They just smashed you under their thumb tonight. Now their wiping you off the table. Congratulations all around in their camp. Now, any dem elected will be owned by them. Change starts with you. Stop consuming now.
smcoger January 15th, 2008 10:38 am
"General Electric, a weapons manufacturer, owns NBC."
Thanks, I forgot. That expains it.
Dennis Kucinich ran on stage at the last minute and stole the debate.
Just kidding. :(
Edwards extends his lead, the finish in sight ...
Paul Bramscher,
And you haven't missed a thing, Paul. They are not debates but timed sound bites.
Like the others on CD, I am upset but not surprised Kucinich was excluded tonight.
I got to get away from this computer and finish reading the book I told you about last week.
I've not watched a single debate this cycle, and don't plan on it. Looking at voting records and money trails is sufficient for me. Debates are fluff, as Kucinich's exclusion demonstrates.
Gives the candidates a chance to manuever around in MSM corporate-framed issues space, sport a good haircut and expensive suit.
Regarding the exclusion of Dennis Kucinich, and the 'deal' to sell out democracy (small d), I found this in a Wall Street Journal (news side) report:
"Mr. McGaha told the judge on Monday that MSNBC and a Democratic party liaison at first invited Mr. Kucinich and then dropped him from the debate."
So, so, this smells like a "Democratic party liaison" was intimately involved in making this dirty deal to kill democracy.
Wonder who it was?
Whoever it was has just tied Judas Iscariot in the reality show, "Sell out of the century".
Funny. The only noncorporate funded, anti-deathpenalty candidate is missing from the Democrats'(?) debate. Meanwhile the debate we get is slightly less instructive than a World Wrestling Federation show.
I know what I won't be watching tonight...
I just heard the Keith Oberman broke into his news schedule to announce that NBC had won on appeal and that DK would not be in the debate.
This is gross!!!!
Ironically this 'Vichy' court partially justified their decision to exclude Kucinich from democracy "in the public interest".
Sort of reminds me of the infamous Vietnam War statement. "we had to destroy the village in order to save it."
Well, this corporatist Empire supreme court of distinctly less than 'honorable' judges has only managed to come in second to the US "Vichy' Supreme Court it killing the village of democracy in order to allow the empire of corporations to prevail against all Americans.
I hope we have all learned something from this little display of the global corporatist Empire behind the facade of 'Vichy America'.
We need to begin the active revolution against this complete two-party (and MSM) Empire ---- and show no quarter.
As Jefferson said, "from time to time the tree of liberty must be nourished by the blood of tyrants" and now is that time.
Jim G (3:59 PM), you meant by FLASH I'm not conveying any big revelation?
If that's what you mean (don't take offense if I'm misreading), I can only say MSM disappoints me exceedingly with their "entertainment." Since I've been laid up a week I've found one sit com that makes me laugh...2 1/2 Men (which I'm sure cable folk ran into 5 yrs before moi). That makes one and a half total. In general I think our television "entertainment" should make great terrorist muzak-prop, that is if the world turns off at the prospect of being schlocked to death. They're not gonna write those books, and if they did I'd rather read books by whistleblowers closer to the malfaesance in gov itself. Any corps that would put out that stuff are bound to have few scruples about anythin, I suspect a lot more people realize this than they wanna tell us about. I don't have cable (regretting only no Oberlin & Stewart), and in my don't-care mode because of this...I'll admit I almost forget the strike'll touch me no doubt vis a vis some very decent movies...that won't get made. Maybe I'll call the networks after all.
Anyway, it's not the illumaniti IMO. It's something Jacques Ellul called technique...something much harder to track down.
What's up? I'm listening to the debate on the radio and there is no sign of DK. I thought he was allowed in?!?
"... if you can keep it?"
Sorry Ben, but that just didn't seem to matter much to most after a while. Maybe next time?
I wouldn't throw my TV set out the window unless it would hit that scum bag NBC CEO or the high court scoundrels who made that swine damn decision in the damn head or maybe should be the booty where their brains are.
True one can go to a coffeeshop, public library, etc. to find out information about candidates, but what is actually going to motivate that person to get his/her fat a** off the couch to do it? If it is easier sitting in front of the Boob Tube eating chips and cookies, then that is what most people will do.
Watch live: Democratic debate on http://www.MSNBC.com.
Wish you were there, Dennis!
Reno Nevada NBC just announced-Supreme Court says Kucinich is out.
Man I am depressed. Anyone want to move to Cuba?
hellodarling January 15th, 2008 6:18 pm
" Jeremy Gaines, a vice president for MSNBC, who announced that the cable channel's parent network would demand an immediate hearing before the Nevada Supreme Court." Jesus Christ!!!! A "network" can demand something? If that's the case, then a "network" should be able to be murdered in the street too, just like a human being.
if corporations want to be treated like human beings, then let them be raped, beat, tortured, and murdered like everybody else!
***Well said!
It's not just the media, folks.
Anyone with sufficient braincells can go to a coffeeshop, public library, etc. check out Project Vote Smart, opensecrets, etc. and research the candidates s/he wishes to vote for. Look at the money, and prior track records. No reason to flip on the Boob Tube.
We're dealing with a culture, by and large, which doesn't give a shit.
Kucinich won't be elected president, but he surely should be our next Secretary of State.
A lot of good thoughts in this thread!!!
Make sure there is no one outside and then throw your television set out of the window!
The above article gives us a glimpse at Democracy American Style.
Our leader always sermonizes other nations about democracy. How about getting a properly working democracy at home first, before lecturing others?
There cannot be a functioning democracy in a country whose media shut out presidential candidates.
John F. Butterfield,
Thanks for the update. This is sad.
Well, I just heard that a judge in Nevada has up held NBCs plea
to keep DK out of the dabate. The only reason I'm still watching
MSNBC is to find out if Keith Olberman has the balls to stand up
to his bosses. I really doubt it.
Bottom line: Cheney will suspend the Constitution, cancel the election all in the "interest of Natl. Security"
Keith Olbermann just announced that Dennis Kucinich will not be in the debate. The Nevada Supreme Court sided with NBC.
Kucinich says Bush should be impeached and thats why he is being excluded.
Bush and Cheney should be impeached.
But if they were impeached it would drag out all the corruption that has been going on in the US government.
This is why Obama and Hillary are widely recognized and are given so much air time -- THEY ARE NOT A THREAT TO THE COMPANIES THAT OWN THE MEDIA!!!! Kucinich, Nader, and even Edwards are threats - threats to their pocket books if either one of them were to be elected. The media giants can accept Hillary and Obama...they're safe.
I would bombard these networks will CALLS!!! Disgusting, mindless media!
Editorial correction-- the word should be "speak" not "walk."
Thank you, Judge Thomson.
-At least one person that is not (completely) corrupt.
What would they do if J.C. applied?
PLEASE stop calling it the "Mainstream Media." There is nothing mainstream about it, and the term assumes a sort of legitimate presence in the culture.
Here are some other suggestions which are far more accurate:
Establishment Press
Capitalist Press
Corporate Press (although this too is a bit benign as it doesn't illustrate their deep entrenchment with state policy and their commitment to this economic system, IMO).
TimKidd--Are you aware Kucinich was also excluded from two debates in Iowa, one of which was on PBS? This is the point: by excluding him (and Mike Gravel), they are suppressing his message, which the public has a right to hear. I, for one, have heard quite enough from the "Top Three." Without Kucinich tonight, this debate will be so predictably infantile and superficial, it is hardly worth watching. Those three aren't even entertaining.
By the way, people can call 212-664-4444 to express their outrage.
Well, TimKidd, I have to disagree with you that Kucinich isn't campaigning seriously: he's as serious as a heart-attack about it.
The thing is, he's just more serious about exposing the politicians and media conglomerates for what they truly are, than he is about winning a popularity contest (which is what American elections are).
What shows us what NBC is all about more than what just happened? What shows us what the mainstream politicos are all about more than what just happened?
Now we KNOW that the mainstream media's main goal is to manipulate us. If it wasn't, they'd put Kucinich in, for the very simple reason that their ratings would go through the roof if they did, but they're spending lots of money to make sure he stays out.
Now we KNOW that the democrats don't really care about the democratic process. If they did, Clinton, Obama and Edwards would be up in arms about the shabby way one of their "colleagues" is being treated, but they're not (Obama's endorsement by Kucinich, however, may be a bait-and-switch tactic, orchestrated by him and Kucinich, but there's no way to know for sure).
Sure, Hillary, Edwards and Obama are seriously campaigning to become President, but Kucinich is the only one out there who's seriously campaigning to tell us the truth.
And if NBC doesn't put Kucinich in, then I, for one, am never going to watch any show aired by them again. ABC is already off my "watchable" list. And I'm not going to be shy about telling others what I think about either station, either.
Whether Kucinich is campaigning "seriously" or not, he's got the body politic and the mainstream media so scared that not only do neither want him to get elected, they also don't even want him to talk. And that simple little fact tells us who we should vote for, if we only had the guts.
RE: - The guide on my cable tv only mentions Hillary, Obama and Edwards on the debate tonite. I guess NBC won.
Or haven't yet lost.
The guide on my cable tv only mentions Hillary, Obama and Edwards on the debate tonite. I guess NBC won. We'll see what Keith Olbermann says about that just prior to tonite's debate as his show precedes the debate on the same station.
I don't know how we will make our grandchildren understand, when they ask why we chose to make our planet into a vicious hellhole when the warning was so clear and the remedy was there for the taking. We'll have to tell them that the guy doing the warning and offering the alternative was, well, sort of short and funny looking and rhymed with spinach, so of course saving ourselves was out of the question. At least our forlorn 2% (Siouxrose) can say we supported him when everybody else galloped off into madness.
What's the big deal? I thought Kucinich
was already represented by Obama.
Didn't you guys get the memo in Iowa?
Oh, right. Kucinich was just joking!
He was just telling people to vote Obama in Iowa
and not the entire race. Okay. Got it.
Open the debate to Kucinich.
Go, Area 51s!
NBC makes me sick! But at the same time I can understand that a man who stands against American Imperialism would be excluded from the Imperialist debate by none other than America's corporate mouth piece. Of course FOX, CBS and ABC are all major propaganda outlets as well.
I phoned NBC, wrote to them and spread the word to hundreds of people at work about the MSM's attempt to crush any opposing views to their grip on a warped ideology. Any TRUE Democrat would cry 'foul' and refuse to participate in a debate that excludes one of only 5 candidates. If none of them do, then this is proof that those candidates represent moneyed interests and NOT the average American.
Thank God for the internet though. Maybe we can put an end to this sham called 'the Presidential Primaries' by boycotting the MSM and using the internet to learn and educate fellow Americans.
I am gross and perverted, I am obsessed and deranged
I have existed for years but very little has changed.
I'm tool of the government and industry too,
for I am destined to rule and regulate you.
I may be vile and pernicious, but you can't look away.
I make you think I'm delicious, with the stuff that I say.
I'm the best you can get, have you guessed me yet?
I'm the slime oozing out of your TV set!
Frank Zappa
Hey, I quoted this Zappa song for my Philosophy 101 final years ago. I failed. This tells you how out of touch philosophy profs are! Oh well, just cogs in the machine.
As for NBC and the MSM - we can storm Congress and the White House and hang the bastards by the lamp posts, but as long as we leave the media structure as it is we'll be back to where we are quicker than a 30 second commercial. We need to take back the media, however we have to do it. Insurgents, arise!
" Jeremy Gaines, a vice president for MSNBC, who announced that the cable channel's parent network would demand an immediate hearing before the Nevada Supreme Court." Jesus Christ!!!! A "network" can demand something? If that's the case, then a "network" should be able to be murdered in the street too, just like a human being.
if corporations want to be treated like human beings, then let them be raped, beat, tortured, and murdered like everybody else!
Dose it appear that no one believes that this corrupt regime has'nt taken completly over our media. Its time to wake up! This bunch of republican criminals has been at work for decades setting this country up for a complete take over. Dont expect the democratic party to bail us out, some of them are part of the criminals. There is a way out though for all of us who call ourselves AMERICANS. More to come......
Speaking of whores and whoremasters, has anyone heard anything about the "Madame" from DC with the black book of names.....some of which might be working on Capitol Hill? I can't remember her name and haven't heard anything about this issue for months.
Anyone?????
TimKidd @ 4:02--If you think that the results from a caucus in Iowa and one primary in New Hampshire are a good determinant for who should be in the debates for the other 48 states, perhaps you'd just like to throw away state's rights across the board because you seem to think that all areas of the country are like-minded. By your criteria, John Kerry never would have gotten into a debate after this point in the 2004 race (okay--maybe that would have been a good thing!).
The point is, the primaries and the debates interspersed between them are the events where we determine who we want to vote for. We don't decide who can or can't run based on polls, Media permission or the results from another state.
Does anyone think that NBC's fighting this with high paid lawyers falls under the category of, "Methinks they protest too much"? If they weren't so afraid of the Kucinich Progressive platform and message, would they go to these lengths?
Also, do you think this whole to-do will be covered in other media? AND, if "real" people hear about this censorship, will they (1)AWAKEN, (2)think nothing of it and change channels, or (3)blame D.K. for being "pushy"? My fear, given my feelings for a dumbed-down public, is that it will be choices #2 AND #3.
Gawd help us all if D.K. doesn't pull a true "Seabiscuit" and take this thing.
"Kucinich has his supporters and they are free to caucus passionately for him, but NBC is under no obligation, in and of itself, to waste time providing a forum to a man who has no realistic shot of winning the Democratic nomination." TimKidd 4:02 pm
The American public, through the FCC, grants licenses to private corporations to use public airwaves in the public interest. As sponsors of public debates, private corporations like General Electric have a duty not only to their shareholders, but to the public at large. Which candidates have a shot at winning the Democratic nomination is speculative and not a valid criterion for inclusion. John Q. Public has a right to hear the viewpoints of all candidates listed on the ballot, whether libertarian, socialist, or whatever. Limiting debates to the most corrupt candidates of the conservative and liberal wings of the American Fascist Party obviously perpetuates our present crony capitalist system and prevents any real discussion or possibility of reform.
Yeah, things could be worse. Our debates could be subject to heavy-handed government censorship instead of our present heavy-handed corporate censorship. I feel better already.
Debates are about the introduction, framing and hashing of ideas. Getting endorsed, your name on a ballot, elected, etc. is largely irrelevant to the question of who ought to be allowed into a debate forum. Free flow of ideas here. The majority of Americans want out of Iraq, perhaps a majority also want single-payer at this point.
Kucinich is well within the mainstream of political opinion on several issues.
I'm watching, I won't allow the neo-cons to rule me totally. I may be one of the sheep, but even sheep have horns or hard heads and I'm buttin every chance I get. I want to see how John Edwards does, he's our only hope. All of the many polls show, John Edwards is the only one who can win over all of the Republican candidates. Hillary cannot beat any of them. Oboma can only beat one of the front runners and that is a near tie vote. I am pissed about the judges decision, it isn't fair, ethical or right.
These news networks will do anything to keep an anti-war candidate from being heard. What are they afraid of? Losing their sponsorships?
This country only knows how to follow the money.
The Democratic Party serves the same masters as the Republicans. Two peas in the same pod. One's slightly greener than the other.
Kucinich 08! He'll get my vote next month.
By the way, I was listening to Thom Hartmann's broadcast this morning and he talk a random straw poll from nationwide listeners for about five minutes or so. Edwards got 40 votes, Kucinich got 18, Obama got 7, Clinton got 5, Paul, Gore, Nader, and the actor, Christopher Walken each got one vote.
This has been the third straw poll I've heard on Hartmann's program, and it's usually closer with Edwards 1st, Kucinich a close 2nd, Obama a distant 3rd, trailed by Clinton in 4th place.
If you progressives believe in Kucinich, please vote for him in your state's primaries. BTW,go to
www.globalresearch.ca and read the article by Michael Carmichael about the New Hampshire primary and why Hillary Clinton won.
I just donated $25 to Kucinich. At least he fights back. Unlike Kerry.
Boycott NBC. They should have their charter revoked for meddleing in the countries important affairs. Even PBS has been compromised, don't trust without verification. We need someone we actually trust not self serving autocratic networks to hold the debates.
Why is Kucinich even a Democrat to begin with? Its not like I see the Democratic party rising to his defense...