Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Faith Talk on the Campaign Trail
It's a presidential campaign like no other. The candidates have been falling all over each other in their rush to declare the depth and sincerity of their religious faith. The pundits have been just as eager to raise questions that seem obvious and important: Should we let religious beliefs influence the making of law and public policy? If so, in what way and to what extent? Those questions, however, assume that candidates bring the subject of faith into the political arena largely to justify -- or turn up the heat under -- their policy positions. In fact, faith talk often has little to do with candidates' stands on the issues. There's something else going on here.
Look at the TV ad that brought Mike Huckabee out of obscurity in Iowa, the one that identified him as a "Christian Leader" who proclaims: "Faith doesn't just influence me. It really defines me." That ad did indeed mention a couple of actual political issues -- the usual suspects, abortion and gay marriage -- but only in passing. Then Huckabee followed up with a red sweater-themed Christmas ad that actively encouraged voters to ignore the issues. We're all tired of politics, the kindly pastor indicated. Let's just drop all the policy stuff and talk about Christmas -- and Christ.
Ads like his aren't meant to argue policy. They aim to create an image -- in this case, of a good Christian with a steady moral compass who sticks to his principles. At a deeper level, faith-talk ads work hard to turn the candidate -- whatever candidate -- into a bulwark of solidity, a symbol of certainty; their goal is to offer assurance that the basic rules for living remain fixed, objective truths, as true as religion.
In a time when the world seems like a shaky place -- whether you have a child in Iraq, a mortgage you may not be able to meet, a pension threatening to head south, a job evaporating under you, a loved one battling drug or alcohol addiction, an ex who just came out as gay or born-again, or a president you just can't trust -- you may begin to wonder whether there is any moral order in the universe. Are the very foundations of society so shaky that they might not hold up for long? Words about faith -- nearly any words -- speak reassuringly to such fears, which haunt millions of Americans.
These fears and the religious responses to them have been a key to the political success of the religious right in recent decades. Randall Balmer, a leading scholar of evangelical Christianity, points out that it's offered not so much "issues" to mobilize around as "an unambiguous morality in an age of moral and ethical uncertainty."
Mitt Romney was courting the evangelical-swinging-toward-Huckabee vote when he, too, went out of his way to link religion with moral absolutes in his big Iowa speech on faith. Our "common creed of moral convictions... the firm ground on which Americans of different faiths meet" turned out, utterly unsurprisingly, to be none other than religious soil: "We believe that every single human being is a child of God... liberty is a gift of God." No doubts allowed here.
American politicians have regularly wielded religious language and symbolism in their moments of need, and such faith talk has always helped provide a sense of moral certainty in a shape-shifting world. But in the better years of the previous century, candidates used religion mostly as an adjunct to the real meat of the political process, a tool to whip up support for policies.
How times have changed. Think of it, perhaps, as a way to measure the powerful sense of unsettledness that has taken a firm hold on American society. Candidates increasingly keep their talk about religion separate from specific campaign issues. They promote faith as something important and valuable in and of itself in the election process. They invariably avow the deep roots of their religious faith and link it not with issues, but with certitude itself.
Sometimes it seems that Democrats do this with even more grim regularity than Republicans. John Edwards, for example, reassured the nation that "the hand of God today is in every step of what happens with me and every human being that exists on this planet." In the same forum, Hillary Clinton proclaimed that she "had a grounding in faith that gave me the courage and the strength to do what I thought was right, regardless of what the world thought. And that's all one can expect or hope for."
When religious language enters the political arena in this way, as an end in itself, it always sends the same symbolic message: Yes, Virginia (or Iowa or New Hampshire or South Carolina) there are absolute values, universal truths that can never change. You are not adrift in a sea of moral chaos. Elect me and you're sure to have a fixed mooring to hold you and your community fast forever.
That message does its work in cultural depths that arguments about the separation of church and state can never touch. Even if the candidates themselves don't always understand what their words are doing, this is the biggest, most overlooked piece in today's faith and politics puzzle -- and once you start looking for it, you find it nearly everywhere on the political landscape.
The Threat to Democracy
So, when it comes to religion and politics, here's the most critical question: Should we turn the political arena into a stage to dramatize our quest for moral certainty? The simple answer is no -- for lots of reasons.
For starters, it's a direct threat to democracy. The essence of our system is that we, the people, get to choose our values. We don't discover them inscribed in the cosmos. So everything must be open to question, to debate, and therefore to change. In a democracy, there should be no fixed truth except that everyone has the right to offer a new view -- and to change his or her mind. It's a process whose outcome should never be predictable, a process without end. A claim to absolute truth -- any absolute truth -- stops that process.
For those of us who see the political arena as the place where the whole community gathers to work for a better world, it's even more important to insist that politics must be about large-scale change. The politics of moral absolutes sends just the opposite message: Don't worry, whatever small changes are necessary, it's only in order to resist the fundamental crumbling that frightens so many. Nothing really important can ever change.
Many liberals and progressives hear that profoundly conservative message even when it's hidden beneath all the reasonable arguments about church and state. That's one big reason they are often so quick to sound a shrill alarm at every sign of faith-based politics.
They also know how easy it is to go from "there is a fixed truth" to "I have that fixed truth." And they've seen that the fixed truth in question is all too often about personal behaviors that ought to be matters of free choice in a democracy.
Which brings us to the next danger: Words alone are rarely enough to reassure the uncertain. In fact, the more people rely on faith talk to pursue certainty, the more they may actually reinforce both anxiety and uncertainty. It's a small step indeed to move beyond the issue of individual self-control to controlling others through the passage of laws.
Campaigns to put the government's hands on our bodies are not usually missionary efforts meant to make us accept someone else's religion. They are much more often campaigns to stage symbolic dramas about self-control and moral reassurance.
Controlling the Passions
American culture has always put a spotlight on the question: Can you control your impulses and desires -- especially sexual desires -- enough to live up to the moral rules? As historian of religion John F. Wilson tells us, the quest for surety has typically focused on a "control of self" that "through discipline" finally becomes self-control. In the 2008 presidential campaign, this still remains true. Listen, for example, to Barack Obama: "My Bible tells me that if we train a child in the way he should go, when he is old he will not turn from it. So I think faith and guidance can help fortify... a sense of reverence that all young people should have for the act of sexual intimacy."
Mitt Romney fit snugly into the same mold. He started his widely-heralded statement on religion by talking about a time when "our nation faced its greatest peril," a threat to "the survival of a free land." Was he talking about terrorism? No. He immediately went on to warn that the real danger comes from "human passions unbridled." Only morality and religion can do the necessary bridling, he argued, quoting John Adams to make his case: "Our constitution was made for a moral and religious people" -- in other words, people who can control themselves. That's why "freedom requires religion."
All too often, though, the faith-talk view of freedom ends up taking away freedom. When Romney said he'd be "delighted" to sign "a federal ban on all abortions," only a minority of Americans approved of that position (if we can believe the polls), but it was a sizeable minority. For them, fear of unbridled passion is stronger than any commitment to personal freedom.
In the end, it may be mostly their own passions that they fear. But since the effort to control oneself is frustrating, it can easily turn into a quest for "control over other selves," to quote historian Wilson again, "with essentially bipolar frameworks for conceiving of the world: good versus bad, us versus them" -- "them" being liberals, secular humanists, wild kids, or whatever label the moment calls for.
The upholders of virtue want to convince each other that their values are absolutely true. So they stick together and stand firm against those who walk in error. As Romney put it, "Any person who has knelt in prayer to the Almighty has a friend and ally in me."
That's the main dynamic driving the movements to ban abortion and gay marriage. But they're just the latest in a long line of such movements, including those aimed at prohibiting or restricting alcohol, drugs, gambling, birth control, crime, and other behaviors that are, in a given period, styled as immoral.
Since it's always about getting "them" to control their passions, the target is usually personal behavior. But it doesn't have to be. Just about any law or policy can become a symbol of eternal moral truth -- even foreign policy, one area where liberals, embarked on their own faith-talk campaigns, are more likely to join conservatives.
The bipartisan war on terror has, for instance, been a symbolic drama of "us versus them," acting out a tale of moral truth. Rudolph Giuliani made the connection clear shortly after the 9/11 attack when he went to the United Nations to whip up support for that "war." "The era of moral relativism... must end," he demanded. "Moral relativism does not have a place in this discussion and debate."
Nor does it have a place in the current campaign debate about foreign policy. Candidate Huckabee, for example, has no hesitation about linking war abroad to the state of morality here at home. He wants to continue fighting in Iraq, he says, because "our way of life, our economic and moral strength, our civilization is at stake... I am determined to look this evil in the eye, confront it, defeat it." As his anti-gay marriage statement asks, "What's the point of keeping the terrorists at bay in the Middle East, if we can't keep decline and decadence at bay here at home?"
On the liberal side, the theme is more muted but still there. Barack Obama, for instance, has affirmed that the U.S. must "lead the world in battling immediate evils and promoting the ultimate good. I still believe that America is the last, best hope of Earth." Apparently that's why we need to keep tens of thousands of troops in Iraq indefinitely. Clinton calls for "a bipartisan consensus to ensure our interests, increase our security and advance our values," acting out "our deeply-held desire to remake the world as it ought to be." Apparently that's why, in her words, "we cannot take any option off the table in sending a clear message to the current leadership of Iran."
When words and policies become symbols of moral absolutes, they are usually about preventing some "evil" deed or turning things back to the way they (supposedly) used to be. So they are likely to have a conservative impact, even when they come from liberals.
The Future of Faith Talk
In itself, faith in politics poses no great danger to democracy as long as the debates are really about policies -- and religious values are translated into political values, articulated in ways that can be rationally debated by people who don't share them. The challenge is not to get religion out of politics. It's to get the quest for certitude out of politics.
The first step is to ask why that quest seems increasingly central to our politics today. It's not simply because a right-wing cabal wants to impose its religion on us. The cabal exists, but it's not powerful enough to shape the political scene on its own. That power lies with millions of voters across the political spectrum. Candidates talk about faith because they want to win votes.
Voters reward faith talk because they want candidates to offer them symbols of immutable moral order. The root of the problem lies in the underlying insecurities of voters, in a sense of powerlessness that makes change seem so frightening, and control -- especially of others -- so necessary.
The only way to alter that condition is to transform our society so that voters will feel empowered enough to take the risks, and tolerate the freedom that democracy requires. That would be genuine change. It's a political problem with a political solution. Until that solution begins to emerge, there is no way to take the conservative symbolic message of faith talk out of American politics.
Ira Chernus is Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder and author of Monsters To Destroy: The Neoconservative War on Terror and Sin.
Copyright 2008 Ira Chernus
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130 Comments so far
Show AllHow many of you, that have no problem with religious values in politics, would not have a problem with the values of islam as your guideline in government policy, if it becomes the dominant form of religion in america.
"In itself, faith in politics poses no great danger to democracy as long as the debates are really about policies — and religious values are translated into political values, articulated in ways that can be rationally debated by people who don't share them. The challenge is not to get religion out of politics. It's to get the quest for certitude out of politics."
Beautifully put.
It's great to see the debate going in the direction of establishing some common and achievable dreams and some more reasonable constructive dialog occurring.
Paul Bramscher, I agree with you that acts of charity is a form of humanism. To me Christ was a humanist, so some followers of Christ's teachings such as myself do call themselves Christian Humanists.
Not in any way to make the Catholic Church right in all things, for those readers who favor Seperation of Church and State, this was one of the major conclusions from Vatican II. No religion can be truly free that is endorsed by government.
This has been a very thought provoking discussion that should bring greater humility to all people of faith.
With the religious zeal that Oboma and Hillary follow Margaret Sanger and her nazi-collaborating groups (Planned Parenthood) I think we need to see her quotes and see if they measure up to the ideals of this board:
"We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably withsocial-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The mostsuccessful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal.We don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negropopulation, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea ifit ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."-- Margaret Sanger's December 19, 1939 letter to Dr. Clarence Gamble
"Give dysgenic groups [people with 'bad genes'] in our populationtheir choice of segregation or [compulsory] sterilization."-- Margaret Sanger, April 1932 Birth Control Review
"The most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it."
Margaret Sanger, Women and the New Race
"Always to me any aroused group was a good group, and therefore I accepted an invitation to talk to the women's branch of the Ku Klux Klan...In the end, through simple illustrations I believed I had accomplished my purpose. A dozen invitations to speak to similar groups were proffered." (Margaret Sanger: An Autobiography, P.366)
and yet we have top runner for the presidency all in support of this racist and evil group (Planned Parenthood). While they cry and complain about corporate welfare they bankrole Planned Parenthood's racist and nazi-eugenic plans with tax-payer dollars. If they cared about blacks they wouldn't support an organization founded to kill them.
thanks for the quotes pacplayer I'll add them to my arsonal I,m building to defend the Constitution.
Oh, Jesus Christ. And *still* people forget about freedom. It's very disappointing to see nothing but zealot after zealot rambling on about his or her own personal beliefs without a thought for the freedom our Constitution is meant to ensure.
NateW said at the top of the comments:
It has become quite apparent that the fundamentalist versions of the big two of monotheism: Christianity & Islam, have become the enemies of free choice and thought. Where once they served to advance mankind, they are now hinderances. Voltaire is more right than ever, "If God did not exist, it would be necessary for man to invent him."
Pac says:
Ahh Volitaire. And what most Americans do not realize is that our country was not founded on Christianity. Ben Franklin, the father of the country was best Friends with the mighty philosopher through a lifetime of correspondence and that both were opposed to religion in government. In fact, Franklin (in H.W. brands "The First American") lived in France and appeared together with him to the frenzy of applauding crowds when he was allowed to return to Paris after having been banned for Heresy. Franklin and Voltaire (where volt comes from) of course were the leading Renaissance men of the day and had unlocked the early secrets of electricity.
These activities eventually lead to French money and support and ships to fight the British, which, without would have surely seen most of the colonists in prison camps in short order. Without Naval superiority, Admiral Howe of the British Navy could not support the Redcoats and lost the American Colonies for the King. These ideals soon lead to the dethronement and death of King Louis the fourth in France.
Patriotic Americans must educate our fellow countrymen on the federalists papers and the anti-federalist papers not to mention the early writings of Franklin, Adams and Jefferson who made it quite clear as Freemassons that religion was a practice that had to reside Outside the halls of power. To not heed their warnings is to descend the nation back into pre-1776 despotism. It is difficult to get extreme bible thumpers to realize the danger of their irrational activities.
pac
Famous Quotes Regarding Freedom Of Religion:
"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine." George Washington
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion ..." from the Treaty of Tripoli, signed by John Adams, June 10, 1797.
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Thomas Jefferson, in his historic Danbury letter, January 1, 1802
"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?" James Madison, in "Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
"The number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of church and state." James Madison, March 2, 1819
"Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between Church and State." The U.S. Supreme Court, 1947
"I am against judicial reforms driven by nakedly partisan reasoning. ... We must be ever-vigilant against those who would strong-arm the judiciary into adopting their preferred policies. It takes a lot of degeneration before a country falls into dictatorship, but we should avoid these ends by avoiding these beginnings."
- Recently retired Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor -- a Republican, conservative-leaning Reagan appointee who helped deliver the White House to the Bush Syndicate in 2000 -- seems to have developed a serious case of conspirator's remorse.
But wait, there's more:
"The national government ... will maintain and defend the foundations on which the power of our nation rests. It will offer strong protection to Christianity as the very basis of our collective morality." Adolf Hitler, 1938
correction, "not" allowing others
CONversation, I'm a lefty, and believe me, i have no sympathy for the political aspirations of any religion. The quest for political power of any religion, is a big reason the world is still in the dark ages.
For some reason, they just can't seem to refrain from allowing others, that do not subscribe to their radical doctrines, to find their own paths to spirituality. It has nothing to do with left or right. It is a matter of, get the hell out of our faces, and let us decide for ourselves.
It is not a difficult concept for most of us, but it seems that the arrogant, holier than thou, just can't seem to grasp it.
Ya know, I've always been amazed at how when the left talks about 'religion' it means Christianity. However; why then does the left always seem sympathetic to the political aspirations of Islam?
All religions, as well as some individuals, feel that they have a lock on spiritual truth. The real truth is, that none of us have a clue what the truth is in this regard.
When we learn to accept our ignorance, and to keep our spirituality a personal quest, and accept that we are all part of the same family, then maybe we will have a true shot at civility and humanity.
Believe what you like, as long as it is not detrimental to others. Do no harm.
Now, lets get on with it.
Iwhunt330 says:
"Real Christians don't torture, don't steal, don't trash the earth, don't invade countries that are no threat to us, don't make war for resources than can be bought, don't arm other nations so that they can make war on each other"
Since when? Is this a new thing?
--------------Hahahaha this really cracked me up. It's like a wishful chant that have no connection to reality whatsoever. And by the way, please replace that "real christian" with "any sensible person" or something else that don't hints to others the "real chrisitans" are the only ones capable of those. You are a person before you are a Christian.........
To those of you who deride those who have faith in higher powers. That is your right. It is my right to belive in my gods and goddesses. I am a practicing Pagan. And proud of it. I wear the symbols of my faith openly, without fear of prejudice.
I will however agree with you that ORGANISED MONOTHEIST religions are, have been and will continue to be a threat to peace, as said monotheisms have a distressing tendency to be exclusivist, militant and very violent. If you don't belive me, read any history text.
------------yeah, but its from the pool of religious believers where those suppressors sprung and draw part of their power. But anyway, your word of "Organised Monotheist Religion" has no meaning to me. thats just the name of the system that took shape because of the activity by some people. The real problem are in those people, not the system. Human history up'till now its always about battling the system, but not the people that caused those systems, and evenless do we consider how those people become those people in the first place---its in here where the real problem lies. How the heck you change others when you are same as them?!(living in the same era, same values, same....whatsoever)
Prof. Chernus's insightful article seems to resonate quite well with John Dewey's conception of democracy..and with Dewey's antagonism to dogmatism and the "quest for certainty"..it would do us all well to make Dewey's works required reading..and add a philosophy course to the public high school curriculum...Consummatory Experience, ends-in-view, social intelligence, etc. are all concepts we need to employ in achieving our country. We are all part of one of the worst cases of underachievement in human history in my opinion...
Above the door of a Buddhist teacher I studied with is a sign that reads,
"A thousand people, a thousand religions."
Vfor911,
You tell me, buddy, and then we'll both know!
"Atheism is the only right answer!"
"No, paganism is right!"
"No, Buddhism!"
"No, only individual seeking!"
And about two words out of tens of thousand that mentioned the right of each individual to pursue life, liberty, and happiness as each sees fit. Every person seems to want to implement his own philosophy as the "cure" for the problem, but that's not a solution, at all -- it's just a different flavor of tyranny.
Stephen V. Riley,
The good works you cited were examples of humanistic principles in practice: food, charity, compassion, generosity, etc.
Some say that the act of true generosity/sacrifice, the Bodhisattva or the saint, is giving with absolutely no regard for receiving. Give the poor the food, real estate title (free and clear), etc. they need. Take nothing in return, especially not their spirituality. Only then you'll have fulfilled your compact.
And I agree with you in that you won't catch me in a church,
Chanting some monotones about how unworthy I am.
Is religion itself a threat to democracy? No, it's not.
What is a threat to democracy is the manipulation of religious people via their religion by secular, money-grubbing men to further their own interests.
I do concur with you that the institution of religion is not the enemy any more than government is the enemy. It is indeed those behind the mask who seek to use it to the detriment of others who need to be exposed. But unless you can identify the maks as what it is, how can you ever expect to expose those hiding behind it?
MeYouWeUs -
I concede your point for the most part. However when you say:
"You seem to want to debate which mask power wears, but it is not the mask it's the method. Fighting the mask is pointless. We must fight what is behind the mask… or we fight each other."
First I have no issue with power per se. I have issue with corrupt power used for self aggrandizement, or to subjugate others. I would suggest that some power is necessary to to implement the institutions required for humans to function in a society. In any form of rule or governance there are examples of the wise and proper use of power vs. the corrupt use of it. This holds true for religions as well.
I have no desire to debate which mask is which, nor even necessarily which mask is good. I do however wish to expose religion as just that, a mask. A human construct, and not the divine revelation that most religious practitioners insist they have found. Particularly dangerous is the "my religion is the one true religion, and all others are evil", or at least doomed, mentality off the Abrahamic religions.
I stick by my statement that the institution of religion in all it's historical examples is inherently un-democratic, just as any form of totalitarianism is inherently un-democratic.
It may be within the realm of possibility that one could create a religion based on the sacred rights of, and divine spark in every individual, but that would almost be an anti-religion, since without a n omniscient single entity it would be difficult, at best, to codify a religious doctrine. There in may lie the fundamental difference between spirituality and religion, at least as far as I understand it.
Stephen V. Riley -
While I respect your right to your, and everyones, spiritual beliefs and practice, I think you are confusing the condemnation of the institution of religion with the condemnation of religious peoples. Faith and spirituality do not require religious doctrine, and in many cases that doctrine prevents individual communion with the spiritual, demanding instead that an elite class relate spiritual revelation to the masses.
While I concur that much good has been done in the name of religion, I think the evil done in the name of religion far outweighs that good. Still when I look at the Catholic Worker movement for example, I see a shining example of selfless deeds driven by spiritual, even religious beliefs.
I have a few Christian friends and acquaintances who believe that their religion leads them to liberal or progressive political view, but I know just as many who believe the opposite. Still I applaud the efforts being made in the Christian tradition in today to refute the hard line intolerance preached by Dobson and his ilk that seems to be the public face in America today.
The one point where I take issue with your statements is in your referral to the "historical Jesus". A fair and honest historical investigation leaves much doubt as to whether or not there was any such being, man or divinity, at that time in history. Historical Christianity, from all the evidence I have seen appears to be mostly a hodge podge of cobbled together myths from previous religions such as Mithraism. I could site you all sorts of references but am not sure it is appropriate for this thread. My main point here is that the historical "facts" that you refer too are somewhat dubious. That does not mean I am trying to dissuade you from your beliefs, so long as you are willing to accept that there are other valid points of view, that may conflict with yours.
chunga,
To compare religion and democracy is pointless?
That is silly.
religion is about shared meaning among member of a group. This shared meaning, however practiced, is fundamental for people living together in any sort of social context. Which makes it truly political.
And that is why every culture on earth has some set of rituals and practices that carry meaning beyond what is physical.
You use the term religion as a catch phrase to make generalizations, which are not untrue.
But leaves too much out to be accurate.
Also your Model is top down, élites create and implement, but more accurate is to say they hijack. Manipulators hijack social structure for their own interests. That is distinctively not religion just like what we have here is not democracy.
People in the name of religion commit atrocities.
People in the name of freedom and democracy commit atrocities.
Atrocities remain, the name in which they are done changes.
How about Eugenics atrocities in the name of science.
Social Darwinism justifies atrocities in the name of social science.
You seem to want to debate which mask power wears, but it is not the mask it's the method. Fighting the mask is pointless. We must fight what is behind the mask... or we fight each other.
I hesitate to write a third posting, but the anger spewed against ALL religious people on CD really bothers me, because I have seen so much good done by people of faith, hospitals, soup kitchens, courageous non-violent civil disobedience, civil rights, honest non-phony compassion, Catholic worker houses, the Berrigan brothers, the great Christian social thinkers behind FDR, many participating in the WTO demonstrations in Seattle and the World Bank demonstrations in Washington, DC, and demonstration at the School of Americas in Fort Benning, GA, annually 20,000 strong, and the activists for peace we so desperately need today.
So this third posting is written to clarify considerable misunderstanding about todays' Christianity . I am note pushing Christianity to the non-believer. I only wish to present some thoughts on what I believe is an evolving Christianity, and particularly in this time when there seems to be only talk about Christian fundamentalism.
To be up front, I consider myself a progressive liberal Catholic, and by that I mean a faith that is more inclusive and prophetic than the Roman Catholic norm. . At the same time, maybe I can open up a few eyes. .
It is not commonly known that Christianity was truly Christian for only about 325 years, up to when the Roman Emperor Constantine merged Christianity with the Roman Empire. Before Constantine, no Christian would ever think of joining the army and waging war. But in less than a hundred years, every Roman soldier was a "Christian". In turn, with Constantine, the Church of Rome acquired its' own visions of empire.
But there is still hope for Christianity today, after 2,000 years of wars and succeeding empires. There is a now promise of a growing progressive movement within the Church, including mainstream Protestantism, and it is encouraged by most of the religious orders (who are not easily controlled by Rome) that is striving to come to know the mind of Christ, the mind of the historical Jesus who walked this earth.
In the study of the mind of Christ, Christians are learning that Christ did not emphatically speak about establishing a new religion. Christ was of the Jewish faith and He came to transform Judaism and all of humanity. The historical Jesus spoke up boldly against the oppression of the Roman Empire, against the oppression of the poor, against public crucifixions, against war, against slavery, against the hypocrisy of religious authorities, and against the greed of the money lenders in the Temple.
The historical Jesus was the Prince of Peace, boldly teaching peace through justice, peace through compassion, peace through putting down the sword, peace by turning the other cheek, peace through non-violent civil disobedience, peace by loving one's enemy, and peace through radical forgiveness, dialogue, and reconciliation.
Where is Christianity today? After 2,000 years, Christianity is pretty much confused, and the U.S. is the Empire of current times. But as I have said, there is hope. Humankind has reached that evolutionary point where it is recognizing that war is obsolete, that technology is not the answer to all the world's problems, and that a higher global consciousness is truly emerging that will show the way to the survival of our species through love, compassion, and justice. To many progressive Christians, this is the Holy Spirit at work amongst all of Humankind.
Yes, there is the architecture of that emerging higher global consciousness that seeks a more just, sustainable and compassionate world. It can be found in the Earth Charter. The Earth Charter was voted down by the United Nations, primarily by the U.S, as a threat to Western industrial capitalism, and rightfully so, if you are a lover of the warring, unsustainable greed of global capitalism.
The Earth Charter initiative is now tired and stopped in its' tracks with America's war on terrorism. In time though, I believe the Earth Charter will emerge as a turning point in our evolution as a species. In turn, I believe that Christians may someday recognize the Earth Charter as the universal consciousness of the Risen Christ, bringing the Kingdom of God here on Earth.
MeYouWeUs I must take issue with your post at 12:25 pm.
While I agree that Religion is nothing more than a human construct, and thereby can held to account independent of the people who seek to use it as a means of control. That does not change the facts of history.
You say "If we treat religion as a form of oppression that historically dominates and controls.
Then the same can be said about democracy.
What democracy? The one were exporting to Iraq? does that mean democracy is bad?"
I say nonsense, historically speaking Religions are established by an elite class for the purpose of controlling the masses. This historical fact does not excuse the people responsible for implementing these religions, and committing atrocities in the name of their gods. But it does show that the purpose of wrapping spiritual experiences and practice and beliefs up into a religious doctrine is typically to exert power over other in a non democratic way.
Further more, while religions have implemented and used to govern and control throughout recorded history, there has never been an example of a true democracy anywhere in history. This is primarily because, even in Rome and Greece, true democracy was feared. So comparing Religion to Democracy is pointless. Religion is inherently un-democratic.
Nice post siouxrose I agree…
Just another point:
I don't think its productive to blame man made concepts for what people do.
Religion didn't do anything, people do it. Its people who do things, not governments not corporations, not religions, people.
It shields people from having to be held accountable to have blame for their actions gets distributed through the whole institution.
great posts most…
Had to return to this invigorating discussion for more!
MOST EXCELLENT analysis: Steven V. Riley, and kudos to TUMBLEWOOD and WM. COBBETT.
To the few in this forum (specifically within this discussion) who evidence their LOYALTY to religion in the face of what its advocates are DOING to the world, your faith is blinding your sense of reason! Religion is not now neutral, the 3 big patriarchal ones have effectively morphed into command units operating under the mandate of M.A.D. (mutually assured destruction). So under thrall to their varied brand name 'gods' is each, that the highest call to fealty is to wipe out the other competing tribe(s) (sports programming!) as proof of said fealty. ANY religion that upholds the destruction of another people compromises the very basis FOR religion. Religious ought serve the spiritual, and the spiritual is the ONENESS by whatever name we call it. The great mystery that transcends what mortal minds in their finitude are fit to grasp, we should come together in the common sharing of AWE, and generously invite others into our rituals of respect. Instead, we have bloodbaths, a morally bankrupt attachment to building, designing and selling/using weaponry and we dare to speak religion in the face of these calamitous moral failures? It's time for religions and their followers to engage in some honest, fearless moral inventory, such as the 12 step programs. The wounds religion has wrought due to its own short-sightedness stain the generations with blood and the call to vengeance, as in proving the axiom, "the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons." What a legacy!
It's like I can hear the minds snapping shut at the use of the word religion.
Followed by blanket statements.
It's too stereotypical. The anti religion movement is a crutch in itself that scapegoats.
To say religion is bad for democracy is like saying people are bad for democracy, and maybe they are.
If we treat religion as a form of oppression that historically dominates and controls.
Then the same can be said about democracy.
What democracy? The one were exporting to Iraq? does that mean democracy is bad?
To hate on religion is to seek refuge in an ambiguous grey area without having to really say anything.
Because then we have to have a discussion about what religion is. and that means we have to talk about things like the relationship of all things to each other including ourselves, and that is personal and intimate and then people get exposed for what they really are.
So its safe to just work from the position that is trendy amongst the educated/indoctrinated class and that is to not think about it, by ripping on it. Turn it into a boogie man. How convenient.
Julian Jaynes suggested that ancient humans were not conscious in the way we think of consciousness today.
I submit that we are still not really conscious.
I am surprised that professor Chernus's rambling essay fails to mention the illegality of diverting tax dollars to faith based charities or the irrationality of launching a faith-based war in Iraq (or anywhere else).
To me the more serious question is not whether religion is a threat to democracy; it is, rather, whether faith-based decision-making on a national scale is a threat to our survival as Americans or as human beings.
To make a decision based on doctrine rather than provable facts-at-hand is to risk suicide. I am not for that.
It surprises me and scares me that our nation, perhaps our world, is rapidly polarizing into two camps: believers and non-believers. That centuries of learning, science, and education should be successfully vetoed by faith-based idealogues is enough to make us all view life---what's left of it---as would a cancer patient. Enjoy it while it lasts.
It's possible that this presidential election---to return to Professor Chernus's essay---could turn out to be a referendum on faith-based government. If so, I would neither bet on the outcome nor see much hope of national conciliation on the matter.
"Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?"
Yes!
Religion is the corruption of the spiritual for the purpose of controlling the masses. It is inherently corrupt and therefore a threat to true freedom and democracy.
Well"fellows it's been good to know ya."
from :the Wreak of the Edmond Fitsgerald
Here's another perspective on mixing religion and government, resurrected from a previous article:
____________________________________
I sure do miss that Kurt Vonnegut. I suppose I ought to root through the books boxed in the basement to find the exact discussion, but I'll make do with an imperfectly-remembered gist.
In a commentary about his books being banned by schools, etc. (IIRC), Vonnegut likened the difference between America and the European monarchies that preceded its founding to a deck of cards (which itself evolved as a sort of microcosm of social categories or roles). Monarchies contained face cards– kings and queens.
The face cards not only represent secular power, of course; monarchies derive their authority from the concept that the monarch is either created or chosen by the Creator of the Universe to rule. So the protections of law that obtained generally could be trumped, or overridden, by the dicta of a godly monarch and his ministers.
Vonnegut held that the Founding Fathers, regardless of the complexities and paradoxes arising from a group of elite aristocrats designing a new form of democratic government, recognized that the "face cards" were the root of injustice and inimical to the enlightened rule of law. The Constitution, in effect, removed the face cards from the deck. In the USA, freedom of expression and other civil rights would be adjudicated without face cards, meaning either direct or subliminated "divine right", automatically taking the trick. Furthermore, churches– religious institutions– were not to be accorded any special privilege or place in government. Churches weren't banned or persecuted, just deprived of special status including seats in government. No religious tests for office, etc.
They drew what they considered a bright line separating their new government of men and laws from theocracy, i.e. the theocratic principles that underpin traditional monarchies.
Again, IIRC, Vonnegut explained that he wasn't crushed by being censored, because organizations like the ACLU exist to patiently remind bigoted, hysterical censors that righteous indignation founded in religious belief doesn't cut it anymore. And in fact, at least in those days, courts routinely rejected clumsy censorship promoted under the rubric of enforcing community standards of decency. Unjustified censorship based on religious opinion is a form of the "tyranny of the majority" which the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were written to oppose, or at least minimize.
I offer this long-winded tangent not only because I share Vonnegut's analysis, but because IMO, like the Ring of Power in "Lord of the Rings", the face cards were never quite destroyed or expunged. This is to be expected in a society founded on freedom of religion; obviously the Founders didn't intend to abolish or exterminate religious belief– just neuter it politically.
One possible reason that the "left" (whatever that means these days), or "progressives", lash out at this latest resurgence of religion is because it represents an attempt to re-introduce face cards into the political deck, albeit indirectly. Arguing that religious belief is inherently valid and wholesome, and a ligitimate topic of political discourse, necessarily re-introduces theology into the mix. Thus, those ludicrous questions during the Dog and Pony Show pseudo-debates, and the spectacle of candidates preaching garbled and labored sermons on religious doctrine.
All of the exasperated, supercilious scolding about how the left/progressives shoot themselves in the ass by criticizing or disparaging religious belief ignores the deep-seated and thoughtful rejection of letting the godly camel's nose back under the tent. We've already seen what seven years under a delusional Manichean theocrat is like, and the Dominionists proceed apace.
As far as the tired canard about left/progressives "hating" religion and religious persons goes– it's about equal parts misunderstanding and condescension. As such, it's at worst an equal and opposite reaction to the believer's "hatred" and contempt for aggressive non-believers. (Yeah, I know; you may hate the sin but never the sinner. Back at ya!) Of course it's the case that there is unfortunate, ignorant, and wrong-headed vitriol expressed by passionate skeptics. It's indefensible, as is its converse. This patronizing idea that the problem is that the left somehow doesn't "get" religion is another lame generalization concocted from elements of truth– and I'm not sure that affronted believers accept that anyone who doesn't "get religion" can still "get" religion.
Arguing that religious belief is a vital, necessary, and laudable aspect of Amerikan life, and advocating the placing of religious matters back on the table because it's simply more useful, even vital, information about candidates, is a mistake. The religious reactionaries are perpetually pissed off that non-believers affect superiority, as reflected in the drumbeat from fundies claiming religious persecution from mean-spirited secular humanists. But adding theology to the political discussion, in full-strength or diluted form, can only vitiate true egalitarianism by inspiring another two-tier adversarial relationship between the godly and the godless.
"It isn't because he is actually a Christian, his actions have always spoke louder then any words when it comes to that."
Tumbleweed,
Actually, Bush is exactly the type "Christian" some of these people want. Many practioners think of Jesus as compassionate, what with the "Love thy neighbor as thyself" instruction and the way he blessed the meek. That's not the Jesus the Religious Right worships.
To Dominionists and those eagerly awaiting The Rapture as a solution to a mixed up world they can't fathom any more, war is spiffy, especially war in the Middle East. Israel must come to power so the temple can be rebuilt and the Biblical prophecies about Armegeddon can be fulfilled. They call themselves "spiritual warriors" and we're already too familiar with this brand of fundamentalist when they call themselves "mujahadin." When the spiritual warriors meet the mujahadin in their longed-for fit of jihad, we had all better hold onto our hats because neither side has any compassion at all for anyone they perceive to be an enemy.
I wish it wasn't true. But there are a lot of Americans in despair and depair breeds crazy.
It won't be a myth if "Someday " never comes.It would appear that they are doing there best to fulfill there prophecies.
Isn't there a term for that?
If people believe that some bearded clown in the sky can provide them with extra benefits by pleading with him it's not only a threat to democracy but a much greater threat to sanity.
Have you ever listened to these frauds on TV. the outlandish things they say and the hypnotised crowd are all nodding in agreement and we expect a group like that to have freedom of choice, they'll choose the one they're told to choose, just like in Britain before WW2.
A better title for this article would be "Is Religion a Threat to Individual Sovereignty?" Answer: yes.
Someday, all religion will be viewed as a myth. Probably not in my lifetime.
Yeah, I hate religion. It is the source of everything bad. Religion sucks!
Religion has become a corrupt multi-billion dollar tax free corporation in this country. Whose overpowering greed for more wealth, power and influence is driving their cause. They are no longer interested in saving souls just gaining political points with the current leaders. Just imposing their sick belief's upon everyone in this country. It is no longer what I remember from my childhood. Where 'right was right and wrong was wrong'! You didn't impose your religious belief's upon anyone around you. That was considered in the worst of taste.
It has become like to many other things in this world corrupted absolutely by to much power. I began noticing it especially the last election in 2004. Where Christian's flocked to vote the most corrupt man in this country back into office. Supposedly on the issues of morals! George W Bush can be called a lot of things but 'moral' isn't one of them. But, sadly enough these Christian's don't seem to know that. They seem to be a very confused group when it comes to morals. They chose to ignore all of his lies, deceit and criminal activities. In favor of his continuing to imposed their sexual belief's upon American's in the form of laws. This is the only reason I can really figure most Christian's get behind Bush. It isn't because he is actually a Christian, his actions have always spoke louder then any words when it comes to that. He has chosen to push their agenda on this country. So they have chosen to ignore how corrupt he is and support him. I can guarantee you that makes Christianity look even more corrupt in the eyes if a lot of people. When you have a religious community who doesn't seem to know the difference between right and wrong! Much less willing to enforce it upon themselves. The last time I was in church lying, cheating and stealing were considered morally wrong. But, none of these people seem to know that. They seem to have the misguided notion moral's begins and ends with sexual behavior. They really need to start taking a critical look at themselves. At all the hypocrisy, greed, human suffering, corruption they are willingly supporting. It's tainting the whole institution as far as I can see. A growing amount of people no longer have a gram of respect left for religion. They are doing their cause more harm than they are good.
I agree with Christopher Hitchens.
Religion is evil.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding whats for dinner.
Liberty is a well armed lamb.
Was half asleep ,but I awoke to the "news" on NPR .I heard the end of a segment where two Supreme Court Justices where arguing about illegal searches.I think Scalia was one.The exchange was some thimg like :
Q. So if I'm a Federal employed janinator I can enter my neighbors house if I suspect he's growing pot and it will a legal act in court.
A. Yes
The "democracy leads to anarchy and then tyranny" quote alloys the hell out of me.
Democracy is ALREADY tyranny - it is the tyranny of the majority. It is mob rule, and nothing more: the arrogation of the monopoly ofver violence, to the biggest gang.
If the majority elects a government that decides to provide a subset of its polity with free trips to gas chambers, does that make it OK?
If I was elected as Global Overlord, I might feel like instituting a pogrom against 'blood-nuts' (redheads) and short men; if I was elected democratically, would that make my actions defensible?
All this talk of democracy is waffle; Mill's "On Representative Government" is as good a source as any as to why. And Mill did not live in an age where 'democracy' had morphed into the periodic exchange of power between two wings of a party which is incestuously aligned with crony capitalists to the detriment of EVERY voter.
Democracy is similar to Utilitarianism - under a strong form of that argument, net social utility can increase if four skinheads kick an old Jew to death, provided that their enjoyment more than offsets his suffering and nobody else finds out about it.
And Religion and democracy go hand in glove - both have nothing whatsoever to do with actual solutions to societal problems; both seek to force people who do not subscribe (e.g., me - I have never contracted with any State to follow its laws).
Don't get me started....
Cheers
GT
France
http://marketrant.blogspot.com
Freedom of religion and freedom from religion issues go back to the earliest days of the American colonies. Its why many of our ancestors risked a very short life to come here.
The writers of the constitution referred to God numerous times. They realized that a religious person has a "relationship" with God that is the source of his/her values. They realized that while the perceived way to "salvation" is not always the same, almost all religions share values similar to the "golden rule" and 10 Commandments... So the plan is to share the best values as we write our laws, and not hit each other over the head about specific ways to heaven (or whatever).
The US has done the best job of any country in history building a secular nation with shared values from diverse religious groups (and now diverse religions).
Huckabee is most comfortable wearing his religion on his sleeve, but he is a preacher in the white evangelical ghetto called the bible belt. The others are uncomfortable with it, but they feel a need to express their values spring from the same source as those of the voters.
The military becoming evangelized may be partly caused by so many recruits and officers coming from the bible belt, but it presents an opportunity for abuse. Any religious litmus test being required for advancement has to be unconstitutional and should be investigated and exorcised.
The scariest thing I have seen was the Moyers piece where these kooks were in a church praying, calling for bombing Iran and reading a letter from Bush. I hope the neocon alliance of "christian" kooks, radical American zionists, the wealthy and big business, and neocolonialists is on the way out.
Christ himself said, "Render unto Caeser the things that are Caeser's and render unto God the things that are God's.".
In other words, he was for separation of religion and government.
Doom n Gloom,
Very good points. And in many ways they were much more democratic than the Europeans in their societal activities.
workreno,
The anarchists and socialists in pre-1936 Spain set up progressive communities with housing, medical care, food distribution, pensions, and helped one another. The wealthy in other parts of the country saw this as a contagious threat and summoned General Franco to lead the charge against these harmless people.
It has continued to this day all over the world, including the U.S. A certain segment of society believe themselves superior to common working people and keep the latter in limbo.
MiMiCcS "Democracy always leads to anarchy, and then tyranny"
Please give an example.
The only account of Anarchy I can think of is 1936 Spain .It was certainly not preceded by a democracy. In fact just about any form of government on the planet played a role in handing the Fascist dictator (Franco) a victory over the well organized and productive Anarchists.Including so called democracies,oligarchies,communists,fascists and the like.
See they all had one common goal :Crush Anarchy ,no power to the people .That sir is one thing the ruling elite do not want.
You may want to read :Chomsky on Anarchy or Homage to Catalonia (Orwell)
You see with out religion and central government(same thing by the way) humans would naturally tend to drift towards Anarchy.
"That which governs least governs best"
Thomas Paine
"Indians were not perfect either. Instead of using birth control to keep the population/resource balance, some used war, infanticide or lacking scientific knowledge, had to let diseases and predation do it for them."
Ezeflyer, I am not in the habit of using the word perfect. What I was describing is the American Indian world view. It does value the oneness and interconnectedness of all things. It stresses cooperation instead of individualism, respect for all life, the value of reciprocity, balance, harmony, and is described in the word Spirit. Indians were advanced in medicine and used poltices made from natural plants. The milpa garden, corn, beans, and squash provided good health. Cleanliness was common among Indian peoples. When the English Colonists arrived here the Indians couldn't believe how bad they stunk. The Euro's were scrawney and unclean, so much so that the Indians used to moon them from the beach whey they sailed back to Europe. lol
My guess is the realm covered here is one of the reasons the labors and anarchists looted ,burnt and then used as outhouses the churches of Spain in 1936 .(Orwell writes about it in Homage to Catalonia)
RELIGIONS AND OTHER DEMONIC FANTASIES HAVE NO PLACE IN THE GOVERNANCE OF FREE SOCIETIES.
The above comments make me ashamed that I have sent even a dime to these politicians.
Does "Jewish State of Israel" sound any more compatible with democracy than "White Christian United States of America" or "Islamic State of Iran"?
The Europeans find it fashionable to bash the US, also, nevermind that they dabbled in fascism/empires of their own, some still have colonial holdings, and their leaders are largely in bed with our leaders -- and oil/nuclear/banking interests.
There's only one legitimate way to criticize global scourges -- globally. I don't think Ira can go deep enough, being too much a patriot. The only critics I listen to are those with no sacred cows. It's interesting to check the list of blogs he links to from his own site, smirkingchimp. There's undoubtedly a litmus at work, and I've known that CD passes.
While I agree that religion is a threat to democracy, Ira's article rings just slightly of hypocrisy.
It is an absolute laugh that a Jew, who's religious home he writes about with much frequency, is - in large part - religious-based.
Are we to think that Ira now condemns the Ultra-Orthodox party as a threat to Israeli democracy? I can't wait for Ira to tell them that - and watch every support system he has in this country evaporate overnight.
If a Christian wrote about the religious parties in Israel like Ira did about Christians here, they'd be vilified as anti-Semitics.
Paul Bramscher,
What compact?
The root of the problem lies in the underlying insecurities of voters, in a sense of powerlessness that makes change seem so frightening, and control — especially of others — so necessary.
The only way to alter that condition is to transform our society so that voters will feel empowered enough to take the risks, and tolerate the freedom that democracy requires.
Mr. Chernus is right that people should learn to tolerate diversity and uncertainty, tolerances that the church forbids. But a more complete statement of the problem/solution unites the people so they may finally defeat their oppressors. The people should learn to enlighten themselves and take responsibility for themselves, individually and collectively. This enables tolerance of diversity and uncertainty, and more generally defeats oppression.
The enlightenment comes first. The people learn the benefits of unity and responsibility, diversity/uncertainty, and other things, e.g. cooperation, efficiency, humility, frugality. When the people know the hows/whys they will naturally seek out the benefits by building and maintaining the necessary institutions. There is no place for elites. Hierarchies lend efficiency/expedience to limited-time projects such as rebuilding after catastrophes but should be dismantled before they can become corrupted.
Your life would be so much simpler if you would just quietly put your money in the basket as it comes around, pay your taxes on time, then go home and relax. God and Government will take of you. So why all the fuss?
The real threat to democracy is the threat that remains for any form of government. GREED!!!!!!!!
Stephen V Riley
Amen
If you think religion is a problem in democracy NOW, check out that 23% sales tax thing called the FairTax proposal being pushed by Mike Huckabee to replace the IRS. What's NOT being said about this is that the evangelicals want it so that churches would no longer be subject to losing a tax-exempt status for overtly preaching politics and candidates from their pulpit.
It's a big goal they have, and other citizens and especially progressives had better pay attention to why it's being pushed.
As usual, when freedom of religion comes up around here, most people prove they aren't for it. They want their brand of spirituality or lack thereof to be the rule for everyone because, of course, each thinks himself to be correct about the nature of the universe.
Our forefathers knew what it's like. People have always been this way. And that's exactly why the First Amendment is there. Because if people are allowed to use the government to force their philosophy on everyone by act of law, no one is free.
The one thing we should all agree on is that freedom is important, and that we value that. Ours and that of the person standing next to us. Until we do, we're all in big trouble.
Just to add my two cents, religion when involved in politics kills democracy. I'm a great believer in the wisdom of the founding fathers of the once great USA, well, never that great but better than any other form of government in the Western World at the time.
Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, James Madison….all believed in a higher being and except for Paine, they all kept their religious beliefs personal – which is where they belong. Immanuel Kant said that even if we tried, we could force no man to change his belief.
We all have our different faiths and that's how they should remain. Here in Southeast Asia, nobody gives a damn what religion you follow. 95% of the population is Buddhist and they also practice ancestor worship. Ancestor worship is nothing more than lighting some incense and saying a prayer to your family members who have died. Pretty healthy way to live. Giving thanks to those who brought us into this world and putting flowers by the little temple almost every home has.
These religious fanatics are killing our democracy and unless we get back to the basics and follow our constitution, we could become no different than Saudi Arabia.
Iwhunt330 says:
"Real Christians don't torture, don't steal, don't trash the earth, don't invade countries that are no threat to us, don't make war for resources than can be bought, don't arm other nations so that they can make war on each other"
Since when? Is this a new thing?
Oh yeah I wanted to say that when I listen to MLK Jrs. speech at Riverside church 1 year before the "Christian Nation "killed him ,I do feel a bit uplifted.But obviously the good Christians didn't pay much attention to that sermon.That proof lies in the 2000 and 2004 election when they choose a murdering tyrant (twice) to run the country because God talks to him.
WOW, to me, Ira Chermus's article is one of the most engaging articles I have ever read on CommonDreams.. Please note my earlier posting 12:01.
I attribute this vibrant discussion to an increasing hunger for spirituality in our materialistic consumer culture. We have come to be a confused and frustrated society.
Institutional religion confused society when it walked away from spirituality. Institutional religion preferred dogma and religious absolutes over spirituality in order to control the faithful and to perpetuate the system. You can call it job security.
There are many causes to be sited in this era of social turmoil. Ira Chermus brilliantly hits upon ONE very important reason for this confusion when he states: "The challenge is not to get religion out of politics but to get the quest for certitude out of politics". This is a very profound point that deserves to be elaborated on.
According to the Franciscan teacher Fr. Richard Rohr, spirituality comes in three levels. The first level of spirituality stems from the immense domination of the human ego. This is "I" versus "them", looking out for number one. Thus society needs authority, order, and control to avoid social chaos, thus government and laws come into being.
The second level of spirituality is in critiquing the system, providing oppositional thought to the authority of government and the established status quo. This is where the spiritual dynamics of democracy come into play, competing ideas for a higher synthesis for truth and justice. But in this spiritual exercise of democracy, there are only competing ideas for truth and justice, there can be found no ultimate truth, no certitude, no formulation of absolute truth.
The third level of spirituality is wisdom. Wisdom is acquired by way of embracing the opposites. The simplest example of embracing the opposites is when the wise tribal elders gathered to settle community disputes. These wise men settled the various disputes by embracing all the conflicting viewpoints and coming to a fair and just settlement. This was the wisdom of the tribal elders, the highest level of spirituality
Today, our political leaders are no longer free to think great thoughts like the wise town elders. Our leaders today cannot embrace wisdom because they are bought and paid for by our nations' corporate oligarchy. Today, our politicians' "wisdom" comes in the certitude of a corporate consumer culture and the absolutes of free market capitalism. And to make matters worse, our politicians cater to the false and controlling absolutes of Christian fundamentalism because these particular Christians and others wish to share in the capitalistic plunder of the community to prove their worthiness in the eyes of God.
I often think of the wise words of economist and author William Greider, "There are few problems in the world that cannot be solved by more Democracy."
This whole discussion is as well most relevant to our nations "War" on terrorism. You cannot have a fair discussion about Islamic terrorism without a discussion of American Empire and its' militant support of the greed of Western industrial capitalism. This brings up the big question, is it their terrorism, or ours?.
Without having that discussion, you have not embraced the opposites, you cannot attain wisdom, and there is no need to pray for peace when you are not working for justice.
brontoburger and muggles5
I for 1 grew up in a very nice Christian church in a small town. While I give you no argument as to the fact that they did try and help people when I was young they also ran off a good working class (electritian)/minister both full time jobs.
That man was here for 15 years or more preforming all sorts of civic duty to boot before they gave him the boot over some bullshit rumours.Sneekin Decan type stuff.
They have been searching for a replacement for 25 30 years now.
But the proverbial straw didn't fall until about 1998 while at an evening bible study one of the "new"preachers wives started into bashing Muslims claiming that they would kill us all if they could.
I said you mean like the Christians killed all the American Indians?
Well that went over like a wet fart in church and ended my delusion that these people that I've known all my life were on the proper path to any spiritual journey that I was seeking.
Take a look at this I could help you with your delusions:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331
I doubt faith played much of a role in pagan systems. Traditional societies probably didn't draw the dualisms between the spiritual/physical, natural/human, or human/god that we do in the West.
Faith is a byproduct of two irreconcilable worlds. The traditional societies, which includes paganism, largely avoided this by seeing gods/nature, etc. as inseparable. Though it might also be read as the anthropomorphism of natural processes. To give them human and animal names, behaviors, etc. (Without science and therefore lacking those vocabularies.)
My favorite religious moment in the campaign so far came when (after ignoring him on all other substantive questions) George Stephanopolus asked Dennis Kucinich whether he believed in God, to which DK replied:
"George I have been praying for the last 40 minutes that you would finally call on me to contribute"--which predictably brought the house down.
To those of you who deride those who have faith in higher powers. That is your right. It is my right to belive in my gods and goddesses. I am a practicing Pagan. And proud of it. I wear the symbols of my faith openly, without fear of prejudice.
I will however agree with you that ORGANISED MONOTHEIST religions are, have been and will continue to be a threat to peace, as said monotheisms have a distressing tendency to be exclusivist, militant and very violent. If you don't belive me, read any history text.
On the role Religion is playing in the Political Campaigns:
Ever notice that the language the Christian Conservatives use to trumpet their current crusade against Muslims is almost identical to their crusades in earlier decades against Russia, China, North Vietnam, North Korea, Cuba, etc. (except of course for the single word "godless" which isn't used quite as much). It's the same ol' never ending "us versus them" rhetoric.
Yet, they never actually conquered or even much reformed any of those countries. More interesting yet, today (with the exception of Cuba) the same loud mouthed war mongers are happily giving those former (and future) adversaries favored nation status so that they can personally pocket huge profits wheeling and dealing with them. Even as to Cuba, all the Christian Capitalists outside of South Florida seem to eagerly want to open the door.
Say, do you suppose those Evangelists will ever learn that those they hated most tend to make them the most money? Nah, probably not. Any history lesson that contradicts whatever their preachers are saying at the moment doesn't seem to be noticed.
Not all religions are plagued with the concept of faith, i.e. the necessity to harbor irrational beliefs. Zen and Buddhism come to mind, and this is an era of great spiritual exploration, perhaps even invention.
One might almost imagine a religion of the self-evident. Only nature itself and that subset known as humanity are necessary to explain the cosmos, only kind/generous/compassionate actions matter. No faith or belief needed.
I don't know whether religion is necessary, but having studied archaeology and other forensic studies, I feel strongly that cultures are to be ultimately judged by the physical artifacts they leave behind, their art, etc. A product of today's world is the wonderful machine known as a computer. Contrary to popular opinion, there is no faith or unreason inside of these things. Computers are evidence that we are capable of great feats of reason.
We are held in thrall by the Trinity: 1)The promise of Eternal Life (with or without virgins); 2)Our compelling need for pagan rituals, costumes and symbols; and 3) Our need to have our missdeeds forgiven. Religion will never go away and people who want to convey the word of god to us will forever enslave us.
The combination of religion and government has enslaved and tyranized us since we came out of the trees. Our only defense is absolute and eternal separation of religion and government.
surly old man
denver
Huckabee didn't wear a red sweater because it was Christmas, he wore it because it matched his neck. His campaign is like Palm Sunday: all their hopes are riding on an ass.
This nauseating torrent of pseudo-piety isn't driven by supply, but by demand. Half of all Americans say they wouldn't vote for an atheist. The rest of the developed world rolls its eyes in wonder at our naive, superstitious ways coupled with our ruthless, violent, exploitative actions. If we define Christianity as based on the teachings of Jesus, the Christians should be voting for Kucinich or Dodd. Abortion and homosexuality were rampant in the Roman world of Jesus's time, but nowhere is he recorded as saying anything about them. He did have a lot to say about greed, materialism, social justice and nonviolence, however, and he decried public piety and religious posturing. The Christian Right is neither.
It can't be denied that there are good religious people in society who are concerned about their neighbors and who do something about it. But their role is one which the criminal corporate government relies on, and manipulates, as a palliative to dampen the misery which they intentionally cause to society. If there were no homeless people, no people without healthcare and no uneducated people and no unemployed people, then how much of a role would religiosity play in society then?
Chernus is a thoughtful writer with whom I often agree, sometimes disagree. The typical poster about religion on this and other Inter-Left sites is a wilfully ignorant hater of people unlike themselves, who has no clue what is going on in most churches, and no concept of the history of secular-religious collaboration in the history of the American Left. It's appalling how much venom comes out of the woodwork over this. It's disturbing how little you all seem to know about your own history - the US has been a place where all varieties of religious experience, including lack of it, have flourished freely, and continue to do so, and this diversity of cosmology is key to the few good things that have come out of our culture. Your fear of a theocracy is not only misguided, but reveals your lack of empathy with those who live it every day, and your lack of understanding of how much distance separates the US from Afghanistan or Iran.
More prosaically, you are so sadly unaware of the critical role churches are playing in helping people in crisis as a result of capitalism's depredations in cities and towns all over the country. If you spent more time actually involved in yoru communities rather than simply waiting for the next hateful comment from a prominent wealthy fundie to pounce on and blather about, you might notice the good works and social justice ministry being carried out by boring little bland denominational churches all around you.
The sophomoric, dare I say anti-intellectual, tone of so much of this commentary would apparently bode very poorly for the future of progressive action in the US. Fortunately, the Falwells and the Hitchenses are far less relevant to the pace of social change in the US than the small, unnoticed actions of millions of ordinary, imperfect secularists and Christians who see a problem, can't sleep because of it, and do something about it.
Peace y'all.
Unlike many posters here I actually think its impossible for human beings to not have or not believe in religion. By religion I mean any sense of metaphysical beleifs. The more people try to avoid such 'religious' statements or groups the more they prove how impossible it is to avoid it.
In the above posts I've noticed several here are diametrically opposed to christianity and by judaism as well. To say Hitler was raised a christian would be pretty much true in that he was baptized...to say that he was following christian doctrine would be a lie as he was directly opposed to it. The National Socialists (NAZI for short) imbdued thier society with anti-christian and particularly anti-catholic doctrines. Instread they adopted many Germanic pagan customs, practices and beliefs particularly those that were the most anti-judaic such as its implementation of eugenic, pro-abortion, and anti-marriage policies.
The separation of religion and politics will never happen but it would be good to separate religion and state sponsored policies. While some here recognize pro-abstinence, and pro-life policies as that its far more historical that the majority of pagan beliefs (Pat, Moloch etc.) where they sacrificed children via abortion, infanticide including prostitution at the temples (via standard role of priestesses throughout history). Perhaps America has already adopted the practices of the Aztecs while they sacrifices children and adults for their blood to be used in rituals and food - - americans today which to use the bodies of aborted and human embryos to sprinkle with their medicine. Much differe? Not at all.
For the author to make such a query it must be assumed that his mind is fogged by more than religion. Clearly, he has no idea what a democracy is. There currently is only one nation in the world which could be described as being a democracy and all of the others are something else, most, especially the richer ones, of which are controlled by nothing more than the same old types of gangs that have controlled nations throughout history.
The reason that the U.S. is such an evil (in this connotation evil losing none of it's flavor as you would find it in the dictionary) nation is because it has no anthropological cohesion that an indigenous population would have from an evolved culture. The U.S. is a "come one-come all" gang of criminals which attracted and promoted the worst type of people. Such glaring evidence of that reigning criminality is seen in the pinnacle of it's developmental stage when viewing the condoned and legalized mafia town of Las Vegas and the cesspool of criminality and terrorism which is Miami.
As long as the U.S. has the god of commercialism, which is their jolly red Santa, and every year continue to cut down billions of years of tree life so that they can use it to decorate their homes for a week before throwing it out in the garbage, then they should quit bashing any type of religiosity because that only makes them the worst type of hypocrites.
The naive self-satisfaction at the heart of this piece takes one's breath away.
First, Philosophy 101 as a quick antidote to progressivist cant. "The essence of our system," Professor Chernus says, "is that we, the people, get to choose our values. We don't discover them inscribed in the cosmos." Now this radically Sartrean thesis about morality is nothing if not contentious--but is presented here as if it were a perfectly neutral observation with which any rational being would unhesitatingly agree. The signers of the Declaration of Independence would certainly have been startled to hear it. And hundreds of millions of Confucians, Hindus, Muslims, Christians, and Jews (of, at least, minimally orthodox faith) would strongly reject such a claim . . . as a professor of religious studies must know very well. Is he saying, then, that they are incapable of ruling themselves? That democracy is an aristocratic privilege reserved for those few who believe that they can and do pick for themselves whatever "values" they like?
"So," Chernus continues, "everything must be open to question, to debate, and therefore to change." Really? *Everything*? How about "the proposition that all men are created equal"? As far as the United States were concerned, Lincoln saw the Civil War as settling any question or debate about its fundamental truth once and for all. Elsewhere, to be sure, there has been a different story: in Germany the National Socialists disputed that dogma with undeniable vigor and effectiveness. Would it betray a deplorable failure to appreciate diversity if I ventured to say anything more than that I just happen personally not to share their particular choices?
Only a robustly religious idiom is able to assert that, because such people first advocated and then committed gross and abominable violations of divine law, they were damnably evil. If nothing less can capture the full truth of the matter, does "democracy" require us to falsify history? Does it rule out the possible thought that we ourselves, even now, may be engaged in things calling for language no less rich in judgment?
What we need is a candidate who will publicly display his faith by thundering like a Hebrew prophet--or in imitation of Christ Himself--against the wanton carnage we continue to be answerable for in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Gaza.
If I must be put into a group on this matter I'll choose Pagan.
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices,under which WEAK minds are servilely crouched.
Fix reason firmly in her seat,and call on her tribunal for every fact and opinion.
Question with boldness EVEN THE EXISTENCE OF GOD;because,if there be one,he must approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
Thomas Jefferson
I think I'm with Tom on this one. Religion has NO place in government. My mother was a Sunday school teacher and 3 of my first cousins are Christian ministers. So I've got a good idea what "religion" is all about.
Religion is a mental illness.
Anything which discourages independent thought is a threat to democracy.
Religion's real purpose is to turn people into mush-brained zombies who will buy everything (both dodgy products AND dodgy politicians) advertised on TV, no thinking required.
He doesn't believe that. Like stupidity, it's been a ruse.
From Webster:
defn. "conniving":
1: to pretend ignorance of or fail to take action against something one ought to oppose [the government connived in the rebels' military buildup]
Poor chimp Bush actually believes that he is doing God's work. Religion and politics? Thats America for you!
Religion, at least in 21st century America, is clearly a danger to democracy. Led by the Religious Right, which, in complicity with the Republican Party and buoyed by cringing agreement from most Democrats, has its own definition of morality which it avowedly seeks to impose, either in law or by constitutional amendment, on all the American people -- and, if possible, the people of other countries. It clearly states that its kind of morality is more important than protection of democratic freedoms. It seeks a theocratic society, similar to those of extremist Islam and medieval Christianity, from which our progenitors fled. This is blatantly recidivist and plainly anti-democratic. Until Republicans can free their Party from the dictates of the Religious Right they must be opposed vigilantly by all Americans who love democracy and freedom.
doomandgloom said:
"Non-Indian Americans are guided by science, competition, and individualism. This has led to the centralization of power and wealth. Here, greed is a good and death through war, executions, and abortions are the norm."
Indians were not perfect either. Instead of using birth control to keep the population/resource balance, some used war, infanticide or lacking scientific knowledge, had to let diseases and predation do it for them.
What led to the centralization of power and concentration of wealth is simply the invention of easily hoarded money as a representation of resources.
Competition, individualism AND cooperation are common to most species and is nature's way. And nature is God's manifestation. If nature is wrong, then isn't God wrong?
"The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins should be read by everyone on the planet.
Religion is the anti-thesis of a Democracy. Theocracies are always authoritarian ruled governments.
Actually, our founding fathers disliked Democracy profoundly, thats why they chose for us a Republic form of government, free of religous control. Democracy always leads to anarchy, and then tyranny (sometimes just going direct to tyranny). The rule of majority becomes mob rule. In a Republic, we are a rule of law, and inalienable rights can not be voted out my majority rule. Of course, today they are discarded by Executive Order and legislation by a coerced if not complicit congress.
Our Republic suffered a fatal blow in 1913 (Income tax, Fed, Tax free Foundations). And Democracy may have been extinguished in 1933 (creation of Emergency Powers extended to the homeland and the Executive Order), or maybe it was between 1963-1973, but without a doubt, it's gone today. We are some form of an oligarchy under authoritarian rule of corporate, financial, political powers, all of whom are globalists, and many not even Americans.
Technology today makes reversing the direction impossible. Whats happening today is a the creation of an Orwellian society. And 1984 is about to happen (25 years late). Orwell was an assumed name of a man who may have been a member of one of the secret societies and died shortly after the publication of his 1984 book. He might have been punished for warning us about the plan, who knows. Too bad we did not listen.
Religion was used by Hitler to gain support of the people. Germany was a Christian nation, and the churches went along with Hitler. Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." And so our churches are playing the same role today, against Islam this time.
paragraph 30 states "in itself faith in politics poses no great danger to democracy as long as the debates are really about policies and religous values are translated into political values, articulated in ways that can be rationally debated by people who dont share them.The challenge is not to get religion out of politics it is to get the quest for certitude out of politics" well written the writer does not want faith eliminated but practiced with maturity on the other hand so many who have responded seem to want to see an end to religion ie belief in God or allowable faith practices etc. Remember remember what other countries anti religion anti faith practices brought the world Stalins russia with 10s of millions killed Maos china with millions killed and persecuted and repercussions continuing Does ones quest to relate to God through faith involve struggle and error? Yes but it seems worth the journey to discover what is true and best A leader forcing his mistaken religious rules is dangerous but just as dangerous is a leader or government that imposes a ban on all forms of faith practices and promotes atheism All in All the writer proposes many good points for discussion
The problem is lack of spiritual infrastructure.
Why else could we treat others so shabbily?
Why else could greed be considers good?
As humans in America we don't share in spirit we each have our own. That hyper-individualism that characterizes us also erodes us.
When even apparently sane candidates like Obama can say "America is the last, best hope of Earth" there is no hope of a rational world any time soon. I hate to break this to Mr Obama, but (a) a great deal of the damage that has been done to democracies, all round the world, in the last 50 years has been the result of American action to protect its economic interests, and (b) There are many other democracies around the world that function a great deal better than that of America, and in which the values of humanism and the Enlightenment are protected far better than they are in America. This belief that America is somehow the only democracy and has behaved well is a result of a poor education system and a deliberate campaign of disinformation by the American media.
The Romney thing "liberty is a gift of God" is a wonderful example of back to front thinking. Liberty has been hard won in the last 500 years or so, and it has been won by prising the cold dead fingers of religion from around the neck of the people, one by one. The liberty we have in western democracies now was achieved at the expense of religion, and the presidential candidates are all it seems hell bent on reinstating that control, removing liberty from the people. We must keep resisting these nutters (http://www.blognow.com.au/mrpickwick/Religion/), and it would help if those bringing religion to the front with frightening words like those of Huckabee, and even Edwards (what was he thinking?) were soundly defeated in the primaries.
It is a scary thing to admit that your religion is just about as valid as that of the ancient Greeks or the Vikings, and that "No, Virginia, there really is no Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Odin, Zeus, or any other omniscient diety to watch over us."
It is more fun, more comforting, and more cheerful to be religious, and to buy into the "pie-in-the-sky" fantasy.
I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but if the world is going to move forward in any significant way, if we are going to get through the environmental crisis, if, in fact, we are going to evolve at all, I'm afraid we must give up our security blanket of religion. I always thought that we should respect the beliefs of others, but it becomes harder each day, when we see what those beliefs cause.
Is religon a threat to democracy? Was the Pope a Nazi?
What democracy?