Report Reveals Vietnam War Hoaxes, Faked Attacks
North Vietnamese made hoax calls to get the US military to bomb its own units during the Vietnam War, according to declassified information that also confirmed US officials faked an incident to escalate the war.
The report was released by the National Security Agency, responsible for much of the United States’ codebreaking and eavesdropping work, in response to a “mandatory declassification” request, the Federation of American Scientists (FAS) said Monday.
From the first intercepted cable — a 1945 message from Vietnamese leader Ho Chi Minh to his Russian counterpart Joseph Stalin — to the final evacuation of US spies from Saigon, the 500-page report retold Vietnam War history from the perspective of “signals intelligence,” the group said in a statement.
During the war, North Vietnamese intelligence units sometimes succeeded in penetrating US communications systems, and they could monitor American message traffic from within, according to the report “Spartans in Darkness.”
On several occasions “the communists were able, by communicating on Allied radio nets, to call in Allied artillery or air strikes on American units,” it said.
“That’s something I have never heard before,” Steven Aftergood, director of the FAS project on government secrecy, told AFP.
But he said that probably the “most historically significant feature” of the declassified report was the retelling of the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident.
That was a reported North Vietnamese attack on American destroyers that helped lead to president Lyndon Johnson’s sharp escalation of American forces in Vietnam.
The author of the report “demonstrates that not only is it not true, as (then US) secretary of defense Robert McNamara told Congress, that the evidence of an attack was ‘unimpeachable,’ but that to the contrary, a review of the classified signals intelligence proves that ‘no attack happened that night,’” FAS said in a statement.
“What this study demonstrated is that the available intelligence shows that there was no attack. It’s a dramatic reversal of the historical record,” Aftergood said.
“There were previous indications of this but this is the first time we have seen the complete study,” he said.
© 2007 Agence France Presse
Is this really news to anyone in the know? Everyone now knows that the reason to eternally occupy Iraq was also fabricated, but Americans have long since learned to accept these methods as the way our government conducts itself internationally.
This speaks to something most of us already know. The “ins and outs and reported incidents” of war and military conflict are easy to fabricate in the moment, and “the truth” is often the first casualty until long after those with nefarious objectives are gone. DUH. That is why war/armed conflict is not nor has it ever been in the interest of “The People”. Double DUH.
Why do our so-called leaders have no empathy?
Regardless, this is why the People need to abandon the federal government if the federal government continues to perpetuate military conflict. It is not in our interest. I’d put forth it is not even in the interest of the few who gain short-term profit, but time will tell.
http://www.peoplesproclamation.com/
Why are we still in the middle east and how much longer is this insanity going to continue?
Reports such as these would serve us better if we got them a wee bit sooner. However, since we now see that the Prez is saying that Iran tried to provoke a fight, we should all stand back and wait for the report before we attack Iran.
Furthermore, why should any of us vote for any of the current presidential candidates when they are all afraid to tell the truth. The federal US of A is a rogue aggressor nation in service to the military-industrial complex at the behest of a few who are desperately clinging to power all the while the ecological systems supporting humanity are in accelarating collapse.
Is this not obvious, and how can someone call themselves a leader if they can’t even speak this simple truth. What are they all afraid of and whom are they serving? It certainly is not the People of this country. Lets get real shall we.
Wealth already flows from the poor to the rich via the inequities in our tax code. the greed that makes an acceleration of this transfer worth perpetual war is unbelievable. The occupation of Iraq is not even about oil. It would be much cheaper to pay whatever price they wanted to charge than to pay for the cost of stealing the stuff.
This war like Viet Nam, World Wars I and II, and all other wars is about the rich being impatient about how fast they are getting richer.
At the least, it can be used in schools and elsewhere as proof that lies were told to get US into the conflict. If we are a nations of laws then it can be debated that the vietnam war was an illegal war and reparations should be made.
While the CD community knows about the fakery, the Red State people need proof. At last we have it for the Vietnam War, and it may make it easier for the people who prefer to believe the president would not lie to us actually did, and that presidents regularly do lie to us.
While my first response to this report was “Huh, this is news?”, it may be a timely piece to either remind people of what many of us have known for years (that the Tonkin Gulf incident was a lie), and to inform those younger than us who may not genuinely know about this important piece of history.
If I remember correctly, the Tonkin Gulf incident lie was publicly exposed when Dan Ellsberg released the Pentagon Papers in 1971.
Kind of like when Nixon was heard swearing on tape, Clinton being caught having sex, Baseball stars being caught taking drugs. It’s all part of undoing the hero worship that seems part of American culture.
Demerara, the operative words you use are “can be”. If this neocon crowd gets to write the textbooks their motto will be “revisionism”.
For more false attacks and false flag operations check out the bottom of the article in: www.bogusstory.com/911_inside_job.html
Also check out wikipedia on definition of false flag.
KaneJeeves January 9th, 2008 1:18 pm
Ultimately derived out of insecurity and paranoia with their own lives. They find their own lives meaningless, uninfluential and pointless… so they have to “latch on” and follow a “figure” that the media, in some form, tells them to worship. And they hear only what they want to hear - because they want to believe their preconcieved notions.
For instance, Obama goes around spouting the line “I will pay for my programs by taxing the Rich.” And the people at his rallies cheer loudly at the Glittering Generality, a rhetorical propoganda tactic - few aware of it though. They want to believe the solution is that simple, straightforward - and that they have the answer. Sounds like a great idea doesn’t it? Yet too good to be true, too simple an answer for such a complex issue…
Nearly all those people who follow Obama, Clinton, Romney etc around at these primary rallies, before and after? They, to a large degree, embody the pattern of behavior and characteristics noted above. They look outward for inpsiration because they aren’t strong enough to generate inspiration themselves.
No one should worry about a similar incident happening with regard to Iran. You see, the Gulf of Tonkin incident occurred with a Democratic president. President Bush is a Republican. So when President Bush tells us that Iran has attacked the US ships, we can believe him. At least that is the spin I expect from Fox News.
All of the war-profiteering criminals and their flag-waving, brain dead supporters need to stop lying in order to get their beloved wars.
The world needs to try to do something to rein in the U.S. — sanctions or SOMETHING!!
NO country is stupid enough to attack the U.S. — the world’s superpower!
We all would like to see the current administration impeached…BUT…why not start with the prosecution of those responsible for crimes of the Vietnam war? I don’t believe there is a statute of limitation for the crimes of treason and murder, are there?
Those in the alleged intelligence community are as guilty as the leaders who used the lies to create then expand a war.
Sure, let’s get the shrub, but how about those other criminals?
WTF: I just googled to see where else this has been reported in the MSM. Came up empty. NOWHERE! Only blogs, Slate, and Ron Paul. And of course this French news article.
This info is going NOWHERE. Most Americans will never have enough information to connect the Gulf of Tonkin to the current false flags. Very sad…..
The goal of the military-industrial complex is keep the GWOT going until Europe’s 100 years war looks like a brief skirmish. The GWOT is so much nicer than the Vietnam war because the rate of deaths is much lower and there is no draft so we have the perfect, open-ended war that can keep the profits flowing for much longer than a mere 100 years. Congratulations to the Bush/Cheney regime and the right wing think tanks for coming up with the perfect war scenario. Such an improvement over Viet Nam! And when the death toll exceeds that of View Nam, few will notice and fewer will care.
And we went to the moon too, just wait until that gets declassified.
Bay of Tonkin, Strait of Hormuz - just two of many war-justifying provocations that never happened (another unhappening is the Spanish sinking of the USS Maine - apparently an onboard accidental explosion - which started the Spanish-American war in 1898 and allowed USA to take Puerto Rico, Philippines and Guam).
Over two million - 2.000.000 - Vietnamese died for their Tonkin-bay never-event, together with ca. 58.000 US soldiers. That’s about 40 Vietnamese for each 1 US death – but who’s counting. They deserved it for not attacking in the Bay of Tonkin.
Maybe a million Iraqis have died for their WMD never-event, with 4 million refugees and soon 4.000 US soldiers dead. That’s 250 Iraqis for each 1 US death – but that doesn’t matter. They deserve it for not having WMD.
With global population growing at 100 million a year, what’s a few million dead here and there to the US military high command? Expendable surplus, it seems.
“All is legal in love and war” - I bet some pretty clever propagandist first said that, linking love to war. We naturally want to be free to do whatever it takes to find love – so now to get that we must accept war too. Neat bundling, great sloganeering. Together with “There’s always been war, you can’t change human nature” (both claims that are patently wrong). Some war-profiteering scoundrel probably paid good money for those.
Truth will out, but now that doesn’t seem to matter after all. And whether US military bombs enemies or its own soldiers looks to be even less important - as long as the bombs are used and the cost for them is paid to the death-merchants.
Gee I wish we humans would get a grip soon…
If you read Daniel Ellsberg’s book “Secrets”, the ‘fact’ that McNamara’s office knew the Gulf of Tonkin had never happened was in that book. Mr. Ellsberg was a high-ranking staffer in that office at the time, and saw it unfold.
There were confused reports from a destroyer captain about something that might have been an attack in the dark. By morning, the captain was reporting that he was uncertain that anything had really happened. This was coming back up the chain of command.
But Johnson had already decided to use this as an excuse for war, so the ‘fact’ that the attack had never really happened, and which was known by the time Johnson was on TV telling the nation we were going to war, got ignored.
If this is news to anyone today, that just shows how little this actually gets reported. This book came out several years ago. Maybe before the Iraq war even began.
There are Presidential candidates who are willing to tell the truth. They just don’t happen to be either Democrats or Republicans. Or at least not at the level that would actually get a nomination. A Paul v Kucinich debate would be interesting to hear as both candidates probably would be telling the truth as they see it.
“I’m coming to explode you”… have any of you heard the ridiculous recording that the gov’t put out this morning? These guys aren’t even trying hard anymore. Shows you their utter contempt for the people of this nation. Provocation indeed… of my intelligence.
….AND NOW,THE LATEST POSSIBLE FAKE:
Iran says the photos showing boats approaching (suppossedly theirs) ARE A FAKE…..as they vere off from the ships stationed out there.
Meanwhile,our media is calling those little boats SHIPS!
Can some body tell me:What in the hell is going on?
I wouldn’t put it passed Bush et al to fake photo’s as an excuse to go the war Bush is hankering to make!
“I’m coming to explode you”
Who’s grammar does that sound like?
“Our children is learning”
Shit, they are so dumb.
Yes this is a big deal- but so is Election FRAUD! What’s up CommonDreams- haven’t you read about the numerous reports of NH election fraud popping up all over the net.
Aside from the numbers, what about basic logic- how did anti-war NH vote for “10,000 years in Iraq” McCain. It defies logic. Yet most of the votes were counted by privately owned machines, in secret.
Regarding counting votes in secret- What Would Hitler Do? Why is America doing the same? And just as importantly, Why aren’t Kucinich and Ron Paul calling for a recount?
It’s come to the point where the liars and deceivers are so confident that they’re going to be able to pass off the ridiculous as actual that they don’t even bother to craft their lies very well.
Yes, it is true that this is NOT new information, but isn’t it interesting that we should be reminded of this fact right now when our lil buddy is telling us that American warships were ‘threatened’ in the Gulf of Hormuz last Saturday? Coincidence? Perhaps! Or is someone trying to remind us that our government isn’t above such tactics?
Nietzsche - you hit the nail squarely on the head. Wars are all about PROFIT for the rich. As my husband reminds me: there’s no money in PEACE! For more information, check this out:
http://www.themoneymasters.com/ This explains it all.
” Remember the Maine”
Additional source:
1/9/08
Declassified study puts Vietnam events in new light
US signals intelligence during the war came up short in major turning points, according to an NSA history.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0109/p04s01-usmi.html
WASHINGTON - US signals intelligence – the much-vaunted ability of American military and spy units to eavesdrop on the radio calls and other electronic communications of an adversary – failed at crucial moments during the Vietnam War, according to a just-declassified National Security Agency history of the effort.
The 10,000 cryptographers and other signals personnel in Southeast Asia at the time did not predict the start of the Tet offensive on Jan. 31, 1968. Prior to that, signals intelligence may have actually misled President Johnson and other top policymakers about the nature of the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident, in which a supposed North Vietnamese attack on US forces triggered a major escalation in the war….. (continued)
Federation of American Scientists
http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2008/01/index.html
Speaking of warmongering BS, the USS Hopper - the ship that was supposedly threatened by the Iranian speedboats is 505 feet long, or about about 200 times larger than the speedboats - assuming that they’re about 25′ long.
See a picture of the monstrous defender of corporate greed here:
http://navysite.de/dd/ddg70.htm
USS HOPPER is the 20th ARLEIGH BURKE class guided missile destroyer Length: 505.25 feet (154 meters)
Beam: 67 feet (20.4 meters)
Draft: 30,5 feet (9.3 meters)
Displacement: approx. 8.300 tons full load
Armament: two Mk 41 VLS for Standard missiles, Tomahawk; Harpoon missile launchers, one Mk 45 5-inch/54 caliber lightweight gun, two Phalanx CIWS, Mk 46 torpedoes (from two triple tube mounts)
The antidote for lying scumbag sold out politicians is direct democracy.
“The antidote for lying scumbag sold out politicians is direct democracy.”
Which will never be possible so long as progressive news sites ignore blatant election fraud.
“What this study demonstrated is that the available intelligence shows that there was no attack. It’s a dramatic reversal of the historical record,” Aftergood said.
Yeah, but c’mon folks, this happened so long ago and we’ve learned a lot and are not as dumb and naive. This would never fly again because we’d never believe it - right? Right?
Sigh…
one of the mistakes many people make regarding the 9/11 false flag is that the 19 arabs were hijackers when in fact it appears they were just stooges. They were under the impression they were to simulate hijackers for the excercises previously planned. This is fairly obvious by their behaviour at Boston airport where they deliberately drew attention to themselves in the car park.
Cell phone calls were impossible at 30,000 feet and 500 MPH in 2001 yet Mrs Olsan was supposed to have called her husband.
The engines of a 757 weigh about 4 tons each yet they didn’t even break a window, just look at the photo on that link the hole is only 16 feet wide and the lawn is unmarked. How anybody could even consider that Pentagon story as true even for a minute is beyond me.
Cheney knew how people would react to the story when it was told, it’s just amazing how stupid the general public is.
Ms Olsen called her husband as the plane was flying up the Potomac, neither at 500MPH nor 30K feet.
Vietnam started when Stalin refused to leave Germany and the conquered eastern European countries at the end of WWII. The domino theory was valid and had many climactic moments such as the Berlin airlift, Cuban missile crisis, Korean War… Finding an issue to get the US on the ground in South Vietnam fits that paradigm.
The tragedy is the US didn’t realize that Vietnamese patriots embraced communism as their way to self determination. It was not an imposition by Stalin or Mao. We became the puppeteers in their eyes.
Vietnam was a mistake and a terrible tragedy, but it started with many good intentions. Iraq, on the other hand, is pure bull feathers. Just a thinly disguised resource grab, with more in common with Japanese MIC colonialism in the 1930’s.
Too bad the average American has no physics knowledge whatsoever; because, if they did, they would know that the 9/11 attack was a false flag operation.
How did this airplane essentially vaporize yet allow the passengers’ corpses to be fingerprinted?
How do three buildings collapse in their own footprint without the assistance of demolition charges?
How do two buildings collapse in freefall time? A little thought experiment helps clarify this. Let’s say that the first floor to collapse, hits the next, shouldn’t there be a pause? If you added up all the pauses, wouldn’t the building have collapsed in more time than freefall?
Try this. Take a board one foot square. Drop it from a height of twenty feet. Use a digital stopwatch to time the fall. Now, take two boards. Take the first board to twenty feet. Hold the second board at ten feet in the direct path of the first board. Drop the first board onto the second board. Since you are only holding the second board with two fingers, it should be knocked from your hands rather easily. Time the descent again. How many additional seconds? Remember, this second board is held by a couple of fingers. Imagine if it had been nailed to something.
No steel frame building has ever collapsed from a fire.
Then think about building seven. No airplane. Minor fires. Collapse in its own footprint at freefall speed.
Wake up people. If necessary, spend a little time studying physics.
Demerara said:”At the least, it can be used in schools and elsewhere as proof that lies were told to get US into the conflict.” Be realistic, please! Do you really think that this truth about our government’s lies will actually be taught in our schools? From what I have heard from younger people, they really learn nothing about the Vietnam “War” except for a few dates and that there were hippy protesters. Absolutely no context or real information. This bit of proof, which most have known in their guts, will not see the light of day…
lover of peace, check out the work incredible groups like _The Pinky Show_ is doing. They have an accessible history of the Vietnam War called “The American War: The U.S. in Vietnam”. So this kind of information is finding its way into schools and waking up some young people.
http://www.pinkyshow.org/archives/episodes/060809/060809_vietnamwar.html
Adele
Even worse, explain why every time I try to post a link to dissident voice this “free speech” progressive site blocks me?
Is it because they don’t want you to read postings about “knee-walking” John McCain and his daddy covering up another hoax? The intentional attack by Israel on the USS Liberty?
When presidents lie, Millions die….
Bush should still be held accountable. And we need to demand that of the so-called candidates.
This is very important piece of information, being an official recognition of what many know..
Now, revisionist History of Pearl Harbour suggests problems with that account, contemporary knowledge demands an investigation of Presidential lies over Iraq.. To quote a few..
Then perhaps we should look at 9/11 and then (*GASP*). the extensive Zionist Holocaust narrative.
The entire war was a hoax… unless you actually believe the fabricated photos and newstories. Trust me. I have a friend who was born in Vietnam and he says the place doesn’t really exist. And in a similar vein I have no way of determining if Iraq actually exists. Oh yes, there are those news reports– whatever.
The ” hollow cost ” was the biggest deception ever perpetrated on the world at large, it was a ruse to gain sympathy for their planned terrorism in Palestine.
I’m shocked. Simply shocked, I say.
“Do you really think that this truth about our government’s lies will actually be taught in our schools? ”
Well, yes, it does. My wife is a social studies teacher and she does mention the Tonkin deception. Now she has more concrete evidence.
She also discusses the truth about the Cuban Missile Crisis, how Kennedy cut a deal with Kruschev by promising to remove our missiles from Turkey.
Yes, history does get taught. Maybe not in all classes everywhere, but it does get taught.
Whether It Was The U.S.S. Maine, The Gulf of Tonkin, WMD´s, American Capitalist Conservatives have always been willing to sacrifice American Lives for Economic Gain…..
Over 5 million Vietnamese lost their lives fighting for their independence….Over 58,000 Americans died fighting to enrich American Capitalist Conservatives and hundreds of thousands of Americans and Vietnamese have died since then from cancers contracted from contact with “Agent Orange” and “Napalm”….Remember, the government immunized Dow Chemicals from any civil suits.
Iraq is no different….anywhere between 775,000 and 1.43 million Iraqis have died and over 4,000 Americans have died. However, how many more will die from contact with the dust from depleted uranium weapons? And the soldiers still believe that they are avenging the attacks of 9/11. Yet, the reality that the American Capitalist Conservatives have made billions of dollars….Who cares ? 4 million refugees, who cares?
The “Sin” is that the American Media is made up of nothing but American Capitalist Conservatives…..The truth is the CIA along with the Pakistani ISI created the Islamic Militant Army and Benazir Bhutto, in the 90´s, had warned the U.S. Government that it was creating a monster with Osama Bin Laden……..”Operation Cyclone” did not end with the Soviet Union´s departure…..Many of the CIA´s 100,000 Terrorist Army participated in many attacks in the 90´s including the 93 attack on the World Trade Center and the CIA continued training terrorists at CIA Flight Schools….All information was destroyed in the “Planned Demolition” of World Trade Center#7 where the CIA had all its information stored.
This isn’t anything new. What really was the worst is that we had a major spy in the Pentagon who misdirected bombings and attacks and misfed info to generals. The enemy wasn’t in North Vietnam or Moscow, but in our own intelligence.
Dear Moonbats,
As much as I loathe Bush, Cheney, and their administration, they did not attack the U.S. It has never been hard to talk Americans into going to war. There was absolutely no need to stage such an attack in order to do so.
There is not one bit of the conspiracy theorists’ premise that has not been debunked by objective engineers. Penn and Teller have something to say about it, too.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kcrF346sS_I
In the spring of 1967, General Westmoreland landed on our helicopter pad as our company stood in formation as he told us the “war” was going well, “Charlie” was on the run, and it would probably be over in about six months or so. Words to that effect. Oh, and when he told us how well the ARVN (Army of Vietnam) units were doing, we just looked at each other with disbelief. (having run joint operations with them)
The only General officer to retire during WW2 (1944) was another West Point graduate, Herbert C. Holdridge, who worked at the Pentagon at the time. and said the Japanese were willing to surrender in 44′. I’ve written about this before Christmas on my posting to another CD article and don’t want to repeat it as I can’t prove it. I think he retired in disgust.
I only hope that if the coward-in-chief and the morally bankrupt Congress invades Iran, that Russia and China will come to their defense and “humble” US forces.
Cherenkov…well said. All of you know the score. We have an obligation to teach the truth to our fellow citizens who still fall for the D.C. propaganda machine.
“I only hope that if the coward-in-chief and the morally bankrupt Congress invades Iran, that Russia and China will come to their defense and “humble” US forces.”
Gee, so you only wish that hundreds of thousands of people die so that you can be proved right? And you see nothing wrong with that sentiment? You’re worse than any villain you imagine.
Perhaps I’m wrong, but I think peaceman was attempting to state what seems to be obvious. The US of A is becoming more and more isolated every day due to the decadent hubris of the federal politicos in DC who apparently have a deranged sense of invincibility…
It appears that the politicos in DC have also been outwitted and outsmarted economically and diplomatically by other leaders who recognize that offensive military might is fleeting. Always has been. Always will be.
History has shown that they will learn otherwise. The only questions are how much untold suffering of innocence might they unleash if left to their devious intent, and if they are stopped, whether or not they will only be replaced by like-minded criminals.
My sense is that the house of cards is crashing down on DC because the federal government seems to be sadly bereft of courageous individuals with both integrity and the ability to carry out steps of remedy. It is hard to conclude otherwise, and I’d be a fool to listen to someone who says: don’t worry they have our best interest at heart. Don’t you think?
Time will tell.
Opinionated: Perhaps you should take another look at your youtube link before calling peaceman “worse than any villain” you can imagine. At about the 3 min. mark, the fat man with the goatee advises anyone seeing a person holding Eric Hufshmidt’s book “Painful Questions about 9/11″ to “push them down a flight of stairs”. How is this any less violent than peaceman’s suggestion that “others” humble US forces by defending them should we invade Iran?
By the way, after hearing that suggestion, I turned the video off. In my opinion, they haven’t done any worthwhile digging in to the questions Mr. Hufshmidt asks.
And, I thought (but could certainly be wrong) we were in a free country where a person can read whatever suits them?
Firefern: I’m surprized that you would even go to a link posted by Opinionated. He sounds like a troll to me.
The fact is that if Americans can’t stop the madness of our own government, I would be very grateful to any other country that can. One of the reasons that Bushco hasn’t bombed Iran back to the stone age already is because they don’t know how Russia or China would react.
It’s all about the oil folks. And all the big boys want a part of the action. Some are willing to share. Others aren’t. Guess who falls into the latter catagory?
Opinionated,
It’s not a question of being right. I DON’T want to see anybody killed or maimed in any country, anywhere. Period! I too believed in my government when I was young and ignorant and had grand ideas about liberating the world from tyranny with my M-16. Sorry, my friend, two wrongs don’t add up to one right in arithmetic.
Once a person begins investigating cause and effect as scientists and engineers do, the pieces to the mysterious puzzle fit smoothly together and the picture is seen. The seeker of truth, knowledge, or whatever noun pleases you must be open-minded and able to change former notions not necessarily accurate. By being “opinionated” we tend to deny additional facts or circumstances and pre-judge the new findings.
All “wars” are un-neccessary. But take WW2, the bloodiest war in the history of the planet. What if alliances weren’t honored and nations united in taking down Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan? We can only speculated at this point in time, but I hope you understand what I’m saying.
buffalo ken,
Thank you for understanding my position. After my combat experience in Vietnam, not only did I become a life-long pacifist, but a vegetarian as well. But that’s a different topic all together.
Firefem,
I didn’t see the youtube link, but thanks for your comments.
I think you both understand my message of why the “schoolyard bully” has to be stopped.
Peace and Harmony
“Firefern: I’m surprized that you would even go to a link posted by Opinionated. He sounds like a troll to me.”
Far from it. But considering the state this nation is in, I get very angry when the progressives go scattering off into lunatic conspiracy theories when there are real issues to address. But by all means, little sheep, do avoid any links that don’t affirm exactly what you want to believe. I’m sure “nothing would convince you,” in any case.
Perhaps I’m wrong, but I think peaceman was attempting to state what seems to be obvious. The US of A is becoming more and more isolated every day due to the decadent hubris of the federal politicos in DC who apparently have a deranged sense of invincibility…
There, I do not differ. But to wish the worst possible consequences be visited upon our nation so that Cassandras can have the brief contentment of being right? I don’t think so.
RE:The occupation of Iraq is not even about oil. It would be much cheaper to pay whatever price they wanted to charge than to pay for the cost of stealing the stuff.
It IS about oil, but it is not about stealing oil. It is about driving the price of oil up (currently $100. a barrel) to put money in the pockets of all those who have big interests in Big Oil. That would be the entire Bush Family Dynasty and their Saudi ‘brother’ Bandar Bush, also Cheney, well…space won’t allow me to name them all, but you get the picture.
Opinionated,
I’ll be brief as I have to leave. Maybe my comments weren’t clear or you still don’t understand.
How would you feel if you lived in Iran and didn’t know if another country was poised to blow you to kingdom come? They saw what we’ve done in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other countries mentioned on this thread. But if the Russians and the Chinese make it perfectly clear that they would intervene on Iran’s behalf, would our government have second thoughts before unleashing death, destruction, misery, and suffering on the citizens of Iran?
Forget about Cassandra. Who gave our country the right to do whatever we want, anyway? With that logic of yours, we can justify Tojo’s action in Asia, Hitler’s plan for peace and a stable Europe, and on and on and on.
Do some serious reading and self reflection, Opinionated. I stand by my words.
Peaceman,
You don’t understand me. I understand your objections to an imperial America, especially since we aren’t particularly good at it. I share all those concerns.
But Russia and China being drawn into a conflict and defeating the U.S.? There is no way any sane, peaceful person hopes for such an action. It is a recipe for Armeggedon, at worst, and WWIII at the best.
Do you really think after three generations of cultural propaganda that tells the populace “communists” are akin to Satan, Americans would sensibly back down when faced with overwhelming contention from an allied China and Russia? I doubt it.
And do you really think an allied China and Russia would be a force for good on this Earth? I doubt it. You look to odd saviors.
It’s despair. Americans who are against our current path often feel helpless, so you’re looking for someone to come save you. It won’t happen. We must save ourselves.
Opinionated,
Paragraph 1) Okay on that one.
Paragraph2) I could be a peaceful person going insane. Too much sugar in my diet. Maybe glucose intolerant?
Paragraph3) Probably not. Unless our cities looked like Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin, etc. we’d really show them “who’s boss”.
Paragraph4) If they can stop the bully, maybe. Ask the Iraqi’s if the United States is a nation of saviors.
Paragraph5) Wrong again. It’s not despair and I’m not looking for anyone to save me, but what do you mean when you say “Americans who are against our current path often feel helpless.” Do you actually know the path our government is taking? And do you agree “might is right” and “the end justifies the means?”.
This is going nowhere, Opinionated, and I’ll grant you the last comment to this post.