Gulf of Tonkin, we know who listens to what ever Rosie O says.Half no most of you had never heard of that story before. So I suppose even though Iran had a video of their people in the exact same color boats and say they were there, We magically made this boat appear two hundred yards from our ships. I think most of you should move to Iran, and the other half just move away.

"IKE KAY. Are you a Soothsayer or a wizard, or do you just read Tarrot cards? You always seem to know the score."

If your assessment applies (and it certainly-did regards that-post/issue), its because Ike reads History and current-events as a 'realist' does.
As shown here by Chomsky:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=11&ItemID=13629&
[and this is one of the rare/'good' articles by Chomsky wherein you can see that he, and all such Realists (like HK and ZB, and Perle) always DO 'agree' with each-other, even when their 'politics/interests' differ-radically -- they are modern-Philosopher-activists, all]
Understand all of Them, and you understand where your world is headed...
[I, too, am a Johnny Appleseed, just sowing some Seeds in CD -- but no one need 'like my apples', I frankly 'don't care'...because I am a realist, and we 'go on this train, together' -- all of us]

Realists all know that Iran is a 'paper-tiger', secretly-birthed/directed by US/Western/Zionist-interests and NOT any 'real-enemy' -- ergo, 'war' with Iran is as unlikely (but as 'possible', given 'unintended-consequences') as it was with the USSR during the first-ColdWar [ColdWar-I, as Chomsky calls it].
WE are the new face of 'evil-Empire' worldwide [but ALL people subject to human-nature and Interest-driven spurts of Empirical-Hubris], and a 'real-Enemy' (not very 'real', in-fact) DOES serve our current Interests/adventures/directions in the ME, the Caspian, and beyond (in our continuing-war of American-Imperialism and the establishment/founding of a NWO sucking lifeblood from the 3rd-World).
All so simple, and VERY easy to 'see through all the crap and covert-crap impersonating-Crap', once you actually "know the Players and have your Realist-scorecard".
[Click my Name -- start your own Realist-journey]

QWIJIBO

there is now audio and video footage of the 'incident' and if you can make any sense of what is being said then you are a better person than me......
see it on the bbc.co.uk website. one would think that with today's technological wizardry, someone would be able to reproduce a better quality sound.......

I have to say, I'm with Eric98 on this one.

I'm not one to blindly believe what the news says, but until there is evidence to the contrary, I'll believe the Navy's story. Doesn't mean that might not change with more info, but I find it interesting that the same folks who accuse people of blindly believing what the USA says, themselves blindly believe what Iran is saying.

I'm not a fan of Bush, but I think peoples hatred of him blind them to everything else.

The US story is just crap. First we have to believe that the US Navy is going to allow it's ships to transit the Straits of Hormuz without several helicopters (at least) acting as air cover for exactly this kind of incident. Secondly the US Navy has fast patrol boats that are used for harbor screening; if this isn't where they should be used what exactly are they for? Finally we are to assume that a high speed motorboat approaching a US naval vessel within 1000 yards issues a direct threat over the radio and isnt' immediately destroyed?

Anything but the US vessels in the Straights that day had full time coverage by drones at the least and armed helicopter gunships if even slightly warrented. The Straights of Hormuz are an Iranian shooting gallery and we know it. You can believe that the highest degree of paranoia was being enforced unless direct orders to the contrary came from the President.

This whole thing stinks and only US citzens are stupid enough to believe it.

Am glad you posted that information ERIC.

Have you guys even considered for a moment that our navy personnel could have been telling the truth?

I have seen the Iranian navy do this sort of thing with MY OWN EYES when I served in the navy. They would perform fake attack runs against our carriers and turn away at the last possible moment.

Iran was trying to get us to shoot at them. To do so would have created significant anti-american political traction for the Iranian administration. Especially on the eve of a presidential visit to the middle east.

As far as the ships being in Iranian territorial waters, our ships are very careful about this sort of thing, and we keep very detailed accurate charts to prevent such.

Those Iranian gunboats could seriously damage a large ship at close range. They are capable of launching an anti-ship missile and they have hundreds of the very best available. The boat that almost sunk the destroyer Cole was little more than a rowboat. The gunboats in this event were more like WW-2 torpedo boats and that area is only around 10 miles in width.

I do believe the entire thing is a made up story by our government, but I wasn't there. I would not put anything past Bush, he is insane.

Okay, what planet am I on? I see a small body of water with a small arrow next to it and a country labeled Iran. An incident occured there. You can't see it on the map but on the other side of the planet is the US. And the Iranians are provoking the US? Hah!

lilulu,
I think you hit the nail exactly on the head:

"I'm sure that's why this latest incident occurred on the eve of Bush's trip to Israel. The aggressors want Iran to look like the aggressor"

Hasn't this administration time & again shown they will use the MSM to propagandize the public. Who have proven themselves the ones who use unfounded fear to terrorize Americans through PAID disinformation campaigns...and with YOUR/MY money at that?

Bush deludes himself into believing if he gets the complicit MSM to raise a cry of "Terrorists! Terrorists!" this will give him leverage against Iran in the eyes of the rest of the world.

He's a seriously mentally sick man. You can't tell him he's wrong, because he's in denial of being mentally deranged, and of course he will never admit to insanity. It's a classic case.

What he fails to grasp (or perhaps does, and that is even worse) is the only credibility he has left is that of the threatening schoolyard bully who will bludgeon anyone who tells them no! The world isn't buying it anymore, and it is a sad commentary on Americans that the 30% of our population who still support this madman share the same mental illness. This perversion of 'values' almost makes one believe there actually IS something in the water, air, or most likely the speech of Bush's fundamentalist 'base'. Then again, since I admit I'm a little crazy, I must be sane...or am I? LOL

Ok, in regard to attacking an American warship overtly with dinghies, I'm not quite that dingy, and I don't think the Iranians are either. This is what gives the lie to this whole story (which might be totally made up for all we know). Since, as one poster noted, the Straight is a mere 21 miles wide doesn't it make more sense that if this really was a serious threat intended to start a scuffle, Iran would attack with land based cruise missiles (which they DO have)?

This is not a military issue, it's political intrigue, or if you prefer "gunboat diplomacy" (to borrow a phrase). End of discussion. Move along now, nothing to see here. Junior cried wolf and was found out immediately.

Hey I'll be the first to tell you it's no joke over there. I've been in the same situation as those sailors standing that 50 cal watch cruisin' through the Strait of Hormuz. Believe me when a ship like those that Iran has starts coming at you it'll make you man up real quick.

Isn't it too silly for words, that six little boats would
threathen our behemoths? Speaking of Gulf of Tonkin, and
other provocations, including Pearl Harbor, I saw a special about goading the South into a war... anyone familiar with that?
Why is it that the neocons want to bring down the U.S.? Is there
any one person in the administration who is trustable?

So many comments, so little time...

The small boats could indeed have weapons that might be enough to damage any US warship, unless they're carrying torpedoes they don't have what it would take to sink any of them. Why would you put an expensive rocket on a cheap boat and risk losing it before you could fire the thing? Much more likely that the missles that could sink us ships are on the ground, well camo'd and not likely to be seen before they're fired.

Moreover, the Iranian gov't knows that the nutballs in the white house are lusting for another war. Would you (if you were in their position) give the madmen what they wanted, or would you wait for the nut to screw himself? If the usa goes into Iran they're going alone, not even Isreal is mad enough to go along with that kind of war. Despite what some people are arguing...

The whole thing with this rubbish war on terror reminds me of another nation state that launched a war in reaction to a terrorist attack. The terrorist was a nutty nationalist who wanted part of his 'homeland' freed from foreign influence, he shot the heir to the throne of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in June of 1914. The war that resulted from that terrorist nutball brought about the deaths of millions of people and brought about the end of SIX empires! (Russia, England, France, Germany Austro-Hungary and the Ottaman Empires all fell as a result of losing so much blood and treasure, some lasted a bit longer after the war than others but their end was assured. Good riddence to the lot of them.) I think everyone - whose not a repukelican or a brain dead zombie (gasp, I repeat myself) - would agree that the end of bush's amerika would be a good thing, but the end of the usa as a state would not be such a good thing.

A war with either Iran or Pakistan would not be good for the continued existance of the usa.

Read my lips, no new wars...

Unless we really need one...

A draft will not fail because the young'ens are less patriotic, it'll fail because that will finally get people off their f@cking lazy asses and do something about this "failed state" we've become.

"Can anyone show me a picture of a 'Iranian Revolutionary Guard boat"?
A boat!?! Sure, boats are going to attack a Navy cruiser, destroyer and frigate. With what? Why no pictures? Why no identified sources?
The official said he didn't have the precise transcript of communications that passed between the two forces, but said the Iranians radioed something like "we're coming at you and you'll explode in a couple minutes."

My war started with an 'attack by boats' that was fired-upon by our brave-Captains, also (killing, I believe, one Enemy-Whale in the Gulf of Tonkin, where we also didn't-belong) -- and that-incident, too, lacked any "precise transcript of communications that passed between the two forces" [but how informative would the enemy-whale-song (or its death-throes) have been, anyway -- even if 'threatening'].
Like I said, Iran is 'in-pocket', and KNOWS damn-well that there will be no-'war' (other than the sort/kind of cooperative ColdWar/"good-cop&bad-cop" we played with the USSR for so-long...).
All this 'noise' is just meant to scare-you [and, apparently, 'HAS'].

pistonbroke makes a good point. Although all of us heap criticism at the administration, the Republicans, and the Democrats as well, and deservingly, we all have a responsibility to ourselves, our fellow beings and general moral principles to make decisions that do not follow from the direct orders of our superiors, bosses, leaders or even our checkbooks in whatever occupation we find ourselves in.

We must all constantly question our actions and the motivations for those actions regardless of the potential harm to our careers, reputations or finances. There must be a moral commitment to "do the right thing".

Unfortunately, many in the military beleive they are doing the right thing. They have been taught to believe "We own the world". They may buy the good vs. evil B.S. spawned by our government and media and they certainly have been brainwashed to follow direct orders of their superiors and the commander in chief.

Calling our soldiers clowns or killers won't win the day and while some of our volunteer army does have the idea that "kill them all" is the best way to keep us safe and extend our present way of life, I think that the vast majority of soldiers are confused and tormented by conflicting issues and their place in the world.

If many citizens within the States who have no personal stake in our Wars don't care, don't wish to be informed, and continue to support the government's task of redistributing income to the wealthy few by means of military conflict and oppression, how can we expect men and women within the military who have been indoctrinated into the culture of war and have a stake not only in the protection of their own lives but in the lives of their fellow soldiers to respond to sound reason and factual evidence to mutiny.

None of the solutions come easy. But we can't sit still. Some of those in the military know what the game is and choose to play, others will never realize what they are taking part in, and there are those that see the hypocrisy and moral chasm and with a little boost from those of us who sit safely at home would choose to act.

It really comes down to us. Those of us who are on this site, those of us who hold down jobs that support the military machine, the university military complex, the technology military complex, and the industrial military complex to take some action, however small to break the cogs in the war machine and bring it to a clanging, screeching, rumbling, belching HALT.

Do your part! Suggest that others do theirs and support them. If you are supporting the Empire's electoral machinations - do your thing and hold candidates feet to the fire on issues of war and defense deparment spending, get out in the streets and prevent recruiting, talk to teens, stick your neck out with veterans organizations, and when people talk about security, a strong defense, the need to fight them here so we don't have to fight them there and all the nonsense that goes with the justification for military spending - stop holding your tongues and let them know that when the military is the only tool to resolve conflict and interact with other governments then all political and social disagreements will result in war.

Above all create a vision for the future. The only thing currently holding this government together is the power of our military. Our infrastructures and institutions are crumbling and we cannot rely on the government to bail us out. Work within your communities to make them self-sufficient, peaceful and economically viable. Stop looking for ways to divide us by race, religion, culture, education or wealth and seek to define the areas that bind us together and strenthen those bonds. Without a balanced vision for the future, the vacuum that occurs with the end of the Empire will drag us all down.

SOLIDARITY! - may you all be enemies of the Empire and citizens of the world.

The Straight of Hormuz is 21 miles wide at its narrowest.

Israel and the U.S., who are salivating to attack Iran, know that it would be easy to start a war with Iran because there are murky dividing lines in that area regarding Iranian territorial waters.

For example: "Iran and Iraq have never agreed on a boundary of their territorial waters. There is no legal definition of the boundary beyond the Shatt al-Arab." -- Richard Schofield, King's College London

"This area is extremely contested. It is an area of great dispute." -- Craig Murray, Former ambassador and Foreign Office naval official

It's my understanding that most countries have a 12-mile boundary line from their shores that are considered their waters, with the exception of countries like Chile, Argentina, Peru and Ecuador who extended theirs to 200 miles to cover their fishing grounds.

With a narrow strait such as the Hormuz, it's a perfect place for the U.S. to antagonize and harass the Iranians in order to start the United States' and Israel's much coveted war with Iran. They can "accidentally" enter Iranian waters, if they haven't already, start something there, and of course blame it on the Iranians.

I'm sure that's why this latest incident occurred on the eve of Bush's trip to Israel. The aggressors want Iran to look like the aggressor.

Sitting ducks....but then, that IS Bush's plan. And unfortunately, OUR CONGRESS has already given him the authority to do a Gulf of Tonkin style attack.

So, Dems who voted for it (HILLARY)...how would you like to be in an election year while another war is underway?

Impeachment "off the table" because there's only a few months left and how much damage can he still do? There's "not enough time?" Spineless.. and their inaction has caused THOUSANDS to re-register independent and look elsewhere.

Strait looks fairly narrow on the map above, but it is actually about 35 miles wide at its narrowest....so...international waters may apply. Some countries try to claim more than the 3 miles. Does anyone know if Iran is one of these?

The comments by military officials made it sound as though it was Iranian boats off our coast. The talk of provocative actions and mischief or whatever words he used is sickening. They well know that it's US and Israel who are the aggressors here.
And where is the opposition party on this? Either cozying up to the Neocons, or marginalized as "not serious". You see why we need a Kucinich or a Ron Paul. World War Three could annihilate millions, and worse yet hurt stock prices. We should learn how to do democracy.

Maybe 'Operation Barbarossa' was the biggest military blunder in military history.

I say that with a lot of anger at what our country has become. Think of me as you wish.

"Iranian speed boats scare the huge Navy ships? LOL
Does anyone know how SMALL speed boats are? "
A persian ex-pat on a different site put up pictures of Iran's fast patrol boats. They are Swedish-made open boats, about 20' with a console, no cabin, like a big Boston Whaler. They are armed with a machine gun or RPG launcher, usually with a crew of three. He also showed what looked like a 30' boat like a cigarette, also lightly armed with an open cockpit. Considering the tonnage and armament disparity (a guided missile destroyer is a 700 ton boat, 400+ feet long with lots of guns, all different sizes, and a crew of hundreds to man them), it wasn't like the US boats had much to worry about.
The Foriegn Ministry of Iran issued a statement that this was a routine patrol encountering an American flotilla and after exchanging ID, all went on their way.
The American Media is creating a story here out of not much.
qwijibo said:
"I get the distinct feeling that if the MSM or the current administration said the Earth was round, most here would say "LIES!!! You can't believe them….if THEY say round, it MUST be flat!!!"
Actually, it's an oblate spheroid.

Who are the people manning these US WAR ships, not Bush or his cronies in the Media. Why do the sheeple let the real criminals in this agressive behaviour off the hook. Why is the military looked up to in the USA, without the volunteers Bush and his gang of robber barons would be stymied.

How many of the posters on here say to the clown in uniform, You're a disgrace to the human race", just how many.

Every one of you who has a friend or relative in uniform ask him/her to read this post or just tell them yourself because if you don't and the Bush gang get to use them the world will go up in smoke. Remember shouting the obvious on this forum will not change the situation but closing down the military will.

i watched this story on the bbc. the iranian "attack boats" were 17 ft. boats with twin outboard motors. the equivalent of what most fisherman in your neighborhood have sitting on the side of their house.

Sorry, I didn't wade through all the posts.

To me it just seems to be a news story designed to get the New Hampshire Primaries and Obama/Hillary off the front page. Our governor trotted out "illegal immigrants" yesterday. Same reason, I think.

What about your local papers? Are the Repubs throwing things at the wall to see what sticks?

Read naomi Wolf's "End of America" and you REALLY begin to doubt these reports from the government.

That was me... :-)

ITSJUSTKARMA

very funny...........but the congressmen could have all been jews........

and whoever mentioned two fighter jets crashing in the gulf was right. two f.18 jets collided mid air and the pilots were rescued. the navy said it had nothing to do with the incident the day before.

Alright then, here it comes. A very good friend just sent me this one.

One day a florist goes to a barber for a haircut. After the cut he asked about his bill and the barber replies, "I cannot accept money from you. I'm doing community service this week." The florist was pleased and left the shop.
When the barber goes to open his shop the next morning there is a 'thank you' card and a dozen roses waiting for him at his door.
Later, a cop comes in for a haircut, and when he tries to pay his bill, the barber again replies, "I cannot accept money from you. I'm doing community service this week." The cop is happy and leaves the shop.
The next morning when the barber goes to open up there is a 'thank you' card and a dozen donuts waiting for him at his door.
Later that day, a college professor comes in for a haircut, and when he tries to pay his bill, the barber again replies, "I cannot accept money from you. I'm doing community service this week." The professor is very happy and leaves the shop.
The next morning when the barber opens his shop, there is a 'thank you' card and a dozen different books, such as "How to Improve Your Business" and "Becoming More Successful.
"Then, a Congressman comes in for a haircut, and when he goes to pay his bill the barber again replies, "I cannot accept money from you. I'm doing community service this week." The Congressman is very happy and leaves the shop.
The next morning when the barber goes to open up, there are a dozen Congressmen lined up waiting for a free haircut.
And that, my friends, illustrates the fundamental difference between the citizens of our country and the members of our Congress.

Don't You love to know that there are still people out there that have not lost perspective on one hand and humor on the
other... :-))

The most frightening aspect of this whole affair is that the American public will buy right in to it.
The majority of Americans do not know what the Gulf of Tonkin is or it's historic significance. The majority of Americans have no clue where Iran is and have no understanding of it's resource value. Ask around and the lack of education will begin to frighten you.

ITSJUSTKARMA AND JJPETER

very good links to alarmingly 'credible' articles..........

Well, I don't know what to make of this, but I did hold my nose and go visit cnn.com to see the headlines. After some searching, I did find the Iranian ship story:
Top World Stories

* Zuma to run in S. African election
* Thaksin's wife returns to Thailand
* Rocket from Lebanon hit Israel
* India: Cricket tour will go on
* China plans its first space walk
* Taylor war crimes trial resumes
* Iranian ships 'harass' U.S. Navy, officials say

Noting that this story is several places after the cricket tour, I just have to wonder if the MSM might not be showing a wee bit of reluctance to pushing it? Sticky wicket anyone?

What are these Navy ships doing there? These are Iranian waters for God sakes, look at the map.

This 'provocation' is nothing but one of Dick Cheney's maneuvers to start WW3.

I really don't think this is false flag, this is a provocation to get Iranians to react.

Just like 1988, US warships are going into the Iranian territory to provoke Iranians to take actions against them and then start the war based on a justified "reaction".

Strait of Hormuz is small enough to be in the territorial water of both Iran and Oman, any ship passing it will pass through Iranian controlled water, that is by international agreement open to all traffic, but it seems that the US ships were close to Gheshm, which is the main Iranian Island and the water around it has been disputed between Persian Gulf countries for ages, by getting into what they call international water, and Iran see it as it own, US is pushing Iranians to confront them just like they did in 1988 and gave an excuse for the Reagan administration to blow up several Iranian oil rigs as well as many speed boats, and in the final stage the disastrous crime of shooting Iran Air flight 655 on it's route from Bandar Abbas to Dubai killing all 290 civilian passenger.

http://www.abdolian.com/thoughts/?p=788

Also interesting to read are the followings:
US trying to provoke war with Iran http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=513

Did the U.S. just provoke Iran?
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/01/12/iran/index_np.html

US and Britain Funding Right Wing Terrorists For Regime Change
http://www.infowars.net/articles/march2007/300307Iran_provocation.htm

Presidential Candidate Fears "Gulf Of Tonkin" To Provoke Iran War
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/150107gulfoftonkin.htm

Among others, this is especially important since Bush is visiting Israel and wants to show that this was a reaction to "his trip" and not the other way around.

/Farhad

Hey Barnburner
I'm 43 years old. My father was in the Air Force during the Vietnam..uh...no, not war....uh, incident.
My parents were believers. Dad enlisted in '61.
I remember watching my mom as the facts about the Gulf of Tonkin came out. Her heartbreak and rage were sad and frightening.
But the truly sad part is that although she hated LBJ with a passion, they will both believe this story...until the facts come out.
They are the kind of republicans found across the country today. They still believe that to talk badly during war is unpatriotic...unamerican.
To me Gulf of Tonkin = Politicians lie for personal gain.

MONKEE

i was thinking: CNN = crap news nonsense.........

btw like moonraven i too was recently living in the gulf region and got a bit concerned when the local hospitals began free courses in first aid (in case of emergency situations they said....) and shopping malls had evacuation exercises. not to mention the huge evacuation exercises by the u.s. that targeted only u.s. citizens........hmmmmmmmm

Thanks to all of you for your help, on how to highlight my links.

Well,

If nobody said it yet,

"Remember the Maine!" - we are reliving another false flag war of 1898.

Putin for president ... of the United States
By Spengler

Excerpt: "Flying across the vast Russian plain in 1944, the future French president Charles DeGaulle cursed the destiny that made him a Frenchman; if only he could rule a country the size of Russia, he mused, think of what he might accomplish! A similar thought must have occurred to Vladimir Putin, the most talented political leader of our time: what might he have done at the helm of the world's only superpower, instead of salvaging the hulk of the defeated Soviet Empire? Why not give him the chance? Watching the last round of American political debates, it occurred to me that it's time to think out of the box.

Putin will finish his second term of office as Russian president early in 2008, just when the next American president takes office. There is plenty of time to naturalize him as an American citizenand amend the constitution to permit a foreign-born president. The alternative is to elect another incarnation of the political type that got America into trouble in the first place.

"God has a special providence for fools, drunks, and the United States of America," German statesman Otto von Bismarck is famously alleged to have said. I have only one New Year's forecast, namely that God will take a holiday, at least as far as America is concerned. The year just passed would be viewed as America's annus horribilis by any normal standard, that is, any standard except that of 2008, which will be the worst year for the US since 1980, when Jimmy Carter left office. Everything that could go wrong has gone wrong in American policy, but not as wrong as it will go now. As in 1980, a lame-duck administration will confront economic and strategic reverses. But it is worse than 1980, for no Ronald Reagan is waiting in the wings to set things right.

America needs leadership, and none of available candidates can provide it. Politicians prevailed during the past generation by flattering American complacency. Precisely the opposite is needed. Putin has the requisite tough-mindedness, with only one important deficiency: he is a nasty piece of work. His youth movement, Nashi (Ours) should frighten anyone who knows the political history of the 20th century.

Then again, nobody's perfect. Russia is no country for nice men. But Putin's personal nastiness is beside the point. Washington has willfully misunderstood Russia's most basic requirements (What they didn't say at Kennebunkport, July 3, 2007). No Russian leader could survive without doing more or less what Putin has done.

While his predecessor Boris Yeltsin led Russia into bankruptcy and chaos, Putin restored Russia's economy and global stature on the strength of one insight: the Russian people were the problem. After centuries of Tsarist brutality and three generations of communist terror, the Russian people had become a passive rabble incapable of defending their interests. Yeltsin allowed a locust-swarm to steal what remained of the Russian economy." (continued)

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/JA08Ag01.html

The zionist influence in American foreign policy is disgusting. They definitely have an agenda.

www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-israel.php

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice (or multiples) shame on me.
What an absolute load of crap!

i don't feel like anybody is even going to get the chance to vote for hillary and i would kind of like to have bill and hill minding the store...the tricksters bush leaves behind .....will take advantage of obama's virginity........bill and hill know all the dirt i doubt that obama ,does........anyway ,looks like it might not matter since bush has created so many monsters and they are clawing to get at us...can obama keep them down.?.i don't know...i don't think so..i hope so......i can't believe that our country is going to let bush live ,after all he has done to the citizens of iraq and to us....iraq=cold-blooded,unjust and unprovoked murder... and to the citizens of america-false representation,lies, child endangerment and the list is too long and i am too tired........

welcome to hell on earth we are being surrounded on every side by all the numerous enemies bush has made for us...iran...afghanistan...iraq...north korea...pakistan....moonraven , i hope you've got a really large hammock down there in mexico..

itsjustkarma,i agree with your verdict of the whole repukelican party..tar and feathers for all !! one good reason to vote for ron paul,the repugnantcans left him out of all the debates and shut down the media to him...i think they are scared to death to debate him..for gosh sakes ,he is a congressman and a rebublican , yet the reporklicans will not allow him to debate their own candidates...besides i kinda like him and think he is a good candidate for most likely to spank the repurglicans...john mccain looks real physically feeble ,dead man walking,the repugnantins know he could not beat obama i will not vote for obama..and not because he's black-tom joad !!welcome back , moonraven ..chunga,that was funny , mom left with her wings drooping..

Somewhere on a ship, at the edge of Empire, a rowdy, drunken sailor stumbled into the abandoned radio room. The other swabbies were distracted by the nightly porn movie. The drunken sailor was desperate and out of liquor. He picked up the mike from the radio transmitter and yelled,

"We need more booze"

"Say again?" came a startled reply from headquarters.

"We need more booze".

"Where you calling from" asked headquarters.

"I said MORE BOOZE, strait up" yelled the frustrated sailor.

"Did you say Hormuz? the strait of Hormuz?"

"Yeah, yeah, whatever, hey, listen to this!" the drunken swabby held the mike up just as the porn star yelled "I'm coming..at you....will explode...."

"Holy Shit!" thought the radio operator at HQ and ran to his CO.

"SIR SIR, One of our vessels may be under attack!"

"Where?"

"In the Straits of Hormuz!"

"When?"

"Just two minutes ago".

"Battle stations! battle stations" rang throughout the fleet.

The drunken sailor, stumbling off to his bunk, thought he saw a strange glowing mushroom on the horizon, just off the port bow.

"Shit man," he thought "I gotta cool it on the booze".

While our Red and Blue politicians keep taking pot-shots at each other, the renegade regime in the White House and Corporatizer offices keep laughing at their silly antics, because they know that there AIN'T gonna be any blasted election in 2008. By the time November gets here, they will have already had us up to our ears in another "provoked" first strike action - - and we once again will have a coalition of like-minded allies who will help us "democratize" another unruly antagonist. The grapevine has it that our coalition will compose of 56 troops from the Falkland Islands, 43 from Tonga, and 82 from Micronesia.
So far, Dennis Kucinich (you remember him, don't you? - - you know, the snubbed one ) is the only one of those Red and Blue pols that makes any sense of the way to deal with the horrific mess that we've let the beltway yahoos make

How in the Devils american world would anybody vote for a repuglican? That's a big mystery to me.
Did those repug losers not cause enough damage already?
I can only hope
nayoibi
that You are joking, 'right'? You are kidding, don't You?
No more repuglicons ever allowed in 'public service' how about that?
Confiscating all the repuglicon money to pay the insane debt back and
give those who fell for 'adjustable rate mortgages' a small break.
Nationalize the complete energy sector, dismantle the military and
their mercenary buddies. There is enough space in those 'detention/
concentration camps' on the mainland. We need to lock those people
away and give them some 'brain flush' and vaccinate them with
Love, Compassion, Kindness and Understanding. Well alrighty, forget the
understanding part, cause that's going to be a bummer.

Hey cruz_cntrl have you forgotten the Cole? One little bitty boat blew a hole in a warship and killed 17 sailors, remember that?

i am watching ron paul on the tonight show , right now... yea, the man talks straight and shoots from the hip...i think he might just make a very fine president...i have tried to find fault with him , but no matter , i find i really do like him...he doesn't use that obscuring double talk (i think obama , does) and he seems genuine and warm...maybe i will vote for him ,after all.

Saila January 7th, 2008 11:37 pm

Another great point.

We have a de facto blockade with 3 Aircraft carrier fleets of Iran's waterways, we've invaded and are currently occupying two of Iran's neighbors.

Lets' review what happened in 2007. Our media is trumpeting the war drums loudly, the president and VP are going around advertising for a war, already denounced this country as evil, already scoffed at Iran's several attempts for diplomacy (more facts the media doesn't report), want to give the idiot adjmanmsnjahd (a guy who's effectively irrelevant in his own country - yet more facts the media doesn't want to report) the biggest voice, label their military as a terrorist organization, label them as proliferators of WMD's - where have we heard this one before.

Even after somehow the intelligence report slipped through, showing that the Bush Administration was lying all along, again, and blatenly beating the drums for war - how does this get no coverage in the media? Dana Perino "Yesteday's statement was inoperative." We're just lucky they didn't say "we don't recall saying Iran proliferates WMD's."

But let's hypothetically say Iran decided to build nuclear weapons. For the sake of argument - and many still believe this anyway... Still, knowing what we know, we have over 250,000 troops in 36 countries abroad, invaded and occupying two of Iran's neighbors, shit's going down in an unstable Pakistan, you have three large carrier fleets in your waterway, sent over that extra one in May 2007, sent over an extra 35,000 troops to Iraq in Feb 2007... how in the heck does 33%-40% of the American population look themselves in the mirror with a straight face, and say to themselves "Well, I don't see why Iran feels so threatened." or "I'm shocked they want nuclear weapons." Think about that for a second. Cause you sure as hell know this 33-40% hasn't tried to put themselves in the Iranian's shoes.

Lots of politicians have fooled people with fake displays of emotion (crying even). So friggin' what. Just because Hill is female doesn't mean she's less deceptive. Lots of criminals also cry in front of the judge & under pressure. Did you ever consider she's using emotional wiles because she's losing, and this isn't part of the 'deal' she sold her soul to the big boys for?

On the issue of Iranian boats 'provoking', I though it very interesting the way the MSM is fronting for the BushCo mob's intentions. Several things say something is rotten here.
1) CNN first states they came within 200 yards, then says others said it was 500 yards. Who said the first, and who said the second? What actually was it?
2) Looking at the screen it first shows film of some naval vessels on the right, then they show what look like some gunboats coming in headed from left to right across the screen...BUT THE BOATS ARE FIRING. From what I have seen/read/heard no shots were fired, so why did the network give the implication they did except to brainwash the American public, and prep everyone for war with Iran?

This link might exp;ain it:

http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/wra.pdf

A number of you have mentioned things like the Gulf of Tonkin, the Maine, the German 'false flag' operation of Poland in 1939. Let's look a little deeper here:

http://judicial-inc.biz/FalseFlag.htm

If someone considers calling me anti-Semitic for telling the truth then just stuff it because my beef isn't against Jewish people, per se, or even Isrealis for that matter (polls have shown 67.2% of Isrealis opposed to a fight with Iran), but the evil warped seed of the Zionist ideology. The Zionist terrorists hide behind Judaism, just like the immoral unethical George Bush hides behind Christianity, or his friend OBL hides behind Islam. (BTW How many of you have heard OBL is dead? B. Bhutto even claimed this before she was 'whacked' under suspicious circumstances recently)

Dammit...just when I thought the Rapture was about to happen, those friggin' Iranians chicken out at the last moment!

I'm getting really impatient with this Jesus guy, I mean for cryin' out loud he's had 2000 years to bring on the End Times and give God's True Nation the go ahead to blow away these heathen sand niggers!

This incident today is like Rapture coitus interruptus!

CNN = Corrupt News Network

I just shook my head.

What's that rattling I hear?

The mere existance of such large US fleets in the Persian Gulf is an act of provocation as would be so many Iranian ships in the Florida Straights

The military claims the transmissions they recieved from the Iranians said something like "We are coming at you, and we are going to blow you up..."

Yeah right. I'm supposed to fall for this nonsense?

Let's try to get this state; If i'm Iran, and i'm launching a sneak attack on American forces in Iraq, I wanna make sure to announce it half-hour to and hour beforehand, to the entire US Navy and all the US admirals before you attack. I also want to give a good ammount of time so they can relay all my strike information back to their forward command in Iraq, and to Centcom in Washington.

And I guess our good old "premption doctrine" reserved by Bush and co just got thrown out the door?

Just like the administration expects me to believe that Iranian Labels are on the insurgent weapons in Iraq.... Cause if i'm Iran, and I want to secretly arm the insurgents, i'm just going leave on all the "Made in Iran" stickers on all the guns i'm secretly supplying to insurgents.

The Bush admin, and their corperate media... can't utter credibility in the same sentance as those two.

Perhaps the fact that I see no reflection of humanity in her says something about me?

Sorry seraphicmom, I did not mean your humanity was an illusion I meant that the reflection you see in Hillary is an illusion.

The Bush Gang has been itching to pull a phony baloney caper like this since Dec, 2006--when the navy base where the 5th fleet is stationed in Bahrain suddenly DOUBLED its population from night to morning.

I was living 3 blocks from the base, and decided it was time for me to go home to Mexico....

chunga , as hillary clinton would say "that hurts my feelings " ouch ! , i just got sucker-punched.........

It's not about provocation. How do we really know that any provocation has actually taken place, except that the US and its tame media are claiming it? Look for an unprovoked attack on Iran when the US claims the second or perhaps the third falsely declared provocation.

seraphicmom - I think you are seeing a reflection of you own humanity in HRC, but alas it is but an illusion.

i have repeated what another poster had already said(i watched the news with brian williams,tonite and heard the same news items.)...i also dont trust obama or al gore and i think women in general have more sympathy for hillary ,and breaking that old glass ceiling.

seraphicmom,

Apparently Canada is the largest exporter of uranium ore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining). Though I'm not an Obama supporter (I don't like anyone in the running) I think this accusation is ludicrous.

tom joad , black or white , i have never felt that was an issue.what i don't like is that obama is already hard at work for the bankers of the new world order. working with the u.s. state department for improved relations with kenya (his father's birthplace) i saw that on the news tonite,also and it was mentioned on another thread...africa is to uranium , what oil is to the middle east=abundant .obama also favors nuclear energy power , and that is my worst nightmare..willybill , maybe i am naive or just plain wrong , but i see an actual human heart beating underneath the steely exterior of hillary , i see some real glimmer of humanity and real human blood running thru her veins.other entities in leadership positions in our country and across the globe seem like heartless,void, black vacuums of nothingness,no conscience,no hearts, nothing left- but greed.

It seems that I am not the only one who immediately thought of the Gulf of Tonkin "incident" and the phony incursion into the "Danzing Corridor" and the Reichstag Fire....... There is more reason to be sceptical than to take this seriously. We are ruled by liars and deceivers.......... There is absolutely no reason to believe this........ "REMEBER THE MAINE"! Another sordid chapter in American history appears to be on the verge of unfolding.

Howard Wilkinson

Of course there are a few more to spare. Cynthia McKinney would be amongst them.

Iraq 2 is/was a war crime. There are a who hell of a lot of war criminal "deciders" in DC who will never be brought to trial, since only war's loosers are ever tried

I hope it is a made up incident because the alternative is far worse. Most posters take the position that the USA is determining events which may well be true. I have no way of knowing and neither do they. BUT...

Pakistan is in serious flux. Putin is quietly pressing an alternative to US hegemony and dominance worldwide and moreover, he is providing Iran with more advanced weaponry than they possess on their own.

I think Pakistan's instability is the pivot on which events turn. Were the USA to become involved in Pakistan militarily, it would mean yet another war with yet another muslim country. This would see a much increased conflict spreading across the whole middle east or even another world war. Perhaps this event was NOT a fake but indeed a provocation.

Do you think other's (like putin) do not see the USA is over extended, loaded down with excessive debt and facing an economic recession/depression?

The phrase biting off more than they can chew comes to mind. Perhaps this incident bears traces of trying to get us to BITE. The USA engaging in a much larger conflict while already strained by years of Bush's profligate stupidity, would critcally drain America's resources. Is an attempt being made to bleed us? Remember that our nuclear arsenal is held in check by Putin's.

Putin is not playing and another conflict, say within Pakistan, might be the critcal straw. Iran may see this too, especially if Putin has guarranteed to them that our nukes will not be used in his backyard (and he has given them assurances of aid in a conflict with us as well).

The situation in Pakistan cannot be ignored in this incident. Bush has seriously weakened us and at this point and it just may be that we are being pushed into a seriously debilitating much larger but non nuclear conflict.

Yes Bush has precipitated all this with the fiasco in Iraq. This is now though!

Just a point. This incident may not have been faked.

The world pauses on Pakistan and now it pivots on it. Has Putin put his foot down, seeing Iran as a proxy in a conflict with us?

Despite Bush's posturing... we are not in good enough shape to engage Iran and perhaps Pakistan... Putin's pressing buttons.

willybill:

There will be a 'Spring Break' demonstration this March at the anniversary of the assault on Iraq. This war is going into its 6th year.
Nobody cares (besides the progs and libs), everything is cool. Why?
Because there is something called Mind Control. Sibel Edmonds anybody?

I think it is not a problem at all to get even more than 2 Million people to DC.
There are wayyyyy more than 2 Million people fed up with all this Bushit. The
most important thing are accommodations. Those people can not arrive at one
bulk of humans. They need to be infused into DC until the numbers fit. Then
and only then, doors will open and 2 Million people step out onto the streets
of Washington. Everywhere in Washington, all over the city. That makes it impossible
for the fascist police force to harass all of the people. Maybe then the cops start
to think about whom they are obliged to 'protect & serve'. Because I was several times
in Berlin, Germany, attending the 'Love Parade'. My friends, One Million People
around You is the coolest thing You could ever think of. The sense of companionship
is unmatched. You don't mess with 2 Million people unless You have the 'Martial Law'
decree already handy. Then we have a revolution with enough people already in DC,
taking out every god damn government office, every corporate headquarter and finish
the scam artists in the whole of the legislative.
The only and I mean it, the only person's life I would spare is the one of Dennis Kucinich.
All the others I really fancy to see dangling from the gallows.
The list of 'desired' targets should include fascist/israeli think tanks, greenspan, perle,
wolfojoke, (Witz = Joke in German), the whole bosh dynasty, energy pirates and wallstreet
execs and so forth. I think You get the idea.

I agree with willybill that the whole thing needs to be started peacefully. From there we take
it forward and just react on police brutality...
And don't forget to buy a taser before You go to DC! You will need it to let some cops taste
their own medicine. By the way, there must be some garment that deflects the taser and
directs it back to where it came from. Cartoon like.

Oh good!! If CNN is getting its news from the American military, it must be true. Cough... Cough... Choke... Choke

CNN - The informed source of news - remember.... you heard it in the Situation Room.

Being in it for the $$$$, CNN AKA FOX NEWS doesn't allow truth to get in the way of a good story.

when bush/cheney leave office are they taking(or disabling) our arsenal with them...? this is the reason i believed we needed hillary and bill , because they know where all the eggs are hidden, obama , knows nothing.

sinnerjizm January 7th, 2008 4:32 pm

"If we listen to the tapes,Ill bet that the Iranian who threatened the US ships has a Texas accent."

LOL!

seraphicmom January 7th, 2008 5:34 pm
"republican machine really busy , already slanting the media ,hyping barak obama and mccain as projected winners…i heard hillary's emotional honesty , today …i know she was the one to turn this boat around…republicans undermining her , raising up , uraniumboy-obama…man you people are going to be so very sorry if obama wins……you fools didnt recognize that hillary been playing ball with the devil , so she could save your sorry asses…she was the "hero" all you whiners wanted….i don't give a rat's ass if you want to rip my words to shreds and jump my ass…but i'm gonna tell you and i'm sticking to it…any evil fool can deliver a beautiful speech and any evil fool can lie and sound sincere…but the emotion and the honesty i heard from the real unguarded hillary ,today….CANNOT BE FAKED…."

You just don't like him because he's black seraphicmom.

Don't forget Former Democratic, now Israel Senator
Lieberman, sponsor of Sen McCain for President, has been for the bombing of Iran right along. Maybe McCain could
expand on this subject, as he is a Fellow Lieberman
Follower, buddies to the end.

Saw it on the news tonite. Great big map of Iran and a dot about the width of a gnat's ass off the coast of Iran showing where the "incident" took place. Wonder what we would do if there were Iranian warships that close to our coast?

seraphicmom January 7th, 2008 5:34 pm ..".but the emotion and the honesty i heard from the real unguarded hillary ,today….CANNOT BE FAKED…." Please, please, I beg of you...WAKE UP...You are under the power of the MSM. They are telling you what to think AND FEEL! They are all actors, well coached and rehearsed.

If the USA wants to play gunboat diplomacy, then she must also be prepared to fire when confronted; but the USA failed to do so, is the USA just chicken shit !

This is an issue best answered by questions rather than answers. Everytime a recalcitrant nation says NO! to the USA, big brother will turn the Navy or Airforce on them. The US 7 Fleet is poised in the Straits of Taiwan, presumably to threaten China that if push comes to shove, the PRC will have to face the might of the US 7th Fleet, and it is for this reason that I believe that this incident in the Straits of Hormuz serves as a usual point of observation for the PR China.

It is interesting to note that there are a mere 5 Iranian gunboats, puny things compared to American warships, and they must have been buzzing the Americans and as the US captain says the Iranians told the US captain that he was coming at the US ship. WHY DI THE USA CAPTAIN NOT SHOOT THE IRANIAN DOWN ? Did the American captain held back because of fear that he might trigger a war with Iran > That being the case why did the American captain not shoot the Iran, because in todays technology, the ship's captain must have been in communication with the Pentagon. Why did you not shoot, YANKEE ?

I come to our case and make a comparison with the US 7th Fleet in the Str. of Taiwan, IF THE PRC HAD MOUNTED A SIMILAR BUZZ OF THE 7TH FLEET, WILL THE AMERICAN CAPTAIN SHOOT ? In this context, the Americans are saying by implication that the Iranians retreated because of the threat of the US ship sinking them; but I doubt that very much. We need only understand what are the IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS to know that the threat of dying was nota deterrance whatsoever for bigots who go out to court death to martyr themselves. This leaves me to ask the question, was there in fact such an incident happened at all ? I really doubtr this story because the facts does not jell.

Therefore we need to go on and ask another question, WHAT MOTIVATED THE USA TO FABRICATE SUCH A FICTION !

And they looked down in the hold and there was Dick Cheney wearing a pirate's scarf.

cbzimmer January 7th, 2008 6:37 pm

I'm waiting for Bush to announce that the Iranian boats contained weapons of mass destruction.

So THAT's where Saddam's WMDs got to...

Why is it that I pay much more credence to the Iranian government than I do to the Cheney/Bush crime family? A war with Iran is Cheney's wet dream. Think of all the no-bid contracts its de facto CEO can drag in for Halliburton from that venture.

Neocon bastards trying to start WWIII. They attack Iran then Iran responds by leveling Qatar and the US military there along with Kuwait, the Emirates and Oman. Russia comes in to defend Iran and then Russian nukes are headed towards our cities. WTF can someone stop these madmen from igniting the Gulf of Tonkin II?

CNN?? Since when does Common Dreams print propaganda pieces by such a bogus news source.

"... attacked by blah blah blah... according to [unidentified sources] the Iranian ships were blah blah blah..." sounds like Bush's writers didn't go out on strike with the rest of the Hollywood writers.

This is common dreams isn't it??

I'm waiting for Bush to announce that the Iranian boats contained weapons of mass destruction.

The British sailors were captured near the Shatt al-Arab, at the head of the Gulf, not the Strait of Hormuz which is at the other end.

Now watch the Democratic presidential candidates trip over themselves proving who is the most hawkish. We will now see who has any real depth of understanding.

Terrb, sorry... i'm a dummy and just posted a link... use the link in the bottom of my last post to find info on how to do that.

Terryb... I'm a dummy and just created a link... go to the link below and you can see how its done

Hope this helps. Here's a link with more information... good luck.

This would be laughable, if it were not so serious - 5 speedboats against three US Navy ships - dropping white boxes in the water. Does anyone in their right mind think that Iran will try to attack US Navy vessels?
The last major incident in the Straits of Hormuz involved the USS Vincennes shooting down an Iranian airbus, and remember the lies which surrounded that incident. I think something stinks about the US now, and it has nothing to do with the majority of people who live in the States.
The Straits of Hormuz do not appear on any map in the Atlantic or Pacific oceans, so what the hell is the US Navy doing there? Perhaps the whole US military machine has such a bloodlust, that it is incapable of doing the sane thing and starting a mutiny.

The key words in the CNN propaganda piece are 'unidentified U.S. officials'. That phrase, along with this governments proven track record of lying should make anyone sceptical about any story like this.

Why wouldn't US officials go on record for a story like this? I'd expect this to come officially from the podium at the Pentagon. So why is it sourced to 'unidentified US officials'? Why won't they identify themselves?

If you go back to the Iraq reporting, this was common then. Many of the lies put out were referred back to similar 'unidentified US officials'. Given this administrations proven track record of lying, I'd say that even anything officially attributed to people in the administration should be confirmed by independent sources before being believed. And anything like this where the source isn't even willing to put their name on the story should be taken with serious misgivings.