Dream on, Cosmic Charlie. I'm all for it!

I think Heavy Runner is right. All of this mess is just what the oil interests want, and that's what rules, economics and oil.

The movie, Charlie Wilson's War, is really an eye opener about Afghanistan in the '80's ( and, probably, Afghanistan even now!). The war mongers and special interest groups in Congress were hard at work then too. Mike Nichols got him message across loud and clear though. Based on the true story, they said.

Is Pakistan next?

Just in time. We needed another country to liberate and bring democracy and Christianity to. Why won`t they appreciate our efforts? Ungrateful wretches.

American boots on the ground is a "godsend" to the Taliban. This is exactly what they wanted...pull the Americans in. Read Michael Shueur's writings. He was in charge of the CIA cell responsible for eliminating OBL.

The trap set is now working.

This plan is nothing new. It was already endorsed by Benazir Bhutto. Read all about it on moinansari.wordpress.com

This will increase anti-Americanism in Pakistan and be detrimental to America.

If we do invade Pakistan, this may be our Waterloo.

"There are no overt or covert U.S. operations inside Pakistan."--Major General, Waheed Arshad, spokesman for the Pakistani military.

No overt operations, sure; but if there were covert U.S. operations there, he, by definition, won't know about it or can't acknowledge it.

Notice the senior officials named as looking into letting the CIA expand its role don't mention Bush, and the article also says Musharraf was not consulted. The coup is in the works, and Bush is left out for plausible deniability.

I don't believe for even a minute that there aren't covert US operations ALREADY in Pakistan, do you?
Oh, spare me!

The sad thing is, in the Democratic Party primary debate last night (which excluded Kucinich) there was no dissent from the position that it was okay to bomb targets inside Pakistan if there was "actionable intelligence" about al Qaeda targets. No one mentioned that this would be a violation of Art. 4 (2) of the UN Charter which prohibits the use of force against the territory of other members states—a crime against peace. Although Sen. Clinton did mention she thought it would be good to call Pakistan and tell them the missiles coming their way would be ours—just to prevent a nuclear counter-strike against India. This kind of remorseless, lawless militarism in both parties (not including Kucinich and Ron Paul) is a great problem, and it appears will continue into the next administration. We have real work to do to create an administration and Congress that will agree to abide by international laws in the use of force.

"It is not up to the US administration, it is Iraq's government who is responsible for this country,..." such would have been the answer from Saddam Hussein too, if he would have had Nukes.
There will be no more statements about the mental condition of those people running the country. Psychopaths, Sociopaths and worse.
Thanks to 'their' god, we are ever more descending into the world of military fascism, directed against anybody who dares to dissent.
Hang all those guys, because it is the 'politicians' and 'government' people who are the greatest threat
to human mankind.
Which country in the world adheres to the standards of humanity? Name one. Pakistan and US of UnA
are only two of the worst examples of oppression. Musharraf did what bush is constantly dreaming of.
Him and his buddy cheney and all the other human scum worldwide need to be impeached, recalled,
tried and punished for crimes against humanity. Isn't humanity the most important concept for humans?
Going through all these articles again, one thing becomes more apparent than anything else. It is really christianity that fosters the worst oppressors on the face of the world.
While the christian principle requires You to go around and kill everybody that doesn't share Your sick
belief, Buddhism is the other way around. Bad things don't come from the outside, they come from the inside. Pakistan is as much done as their 'American Idol' counter part.
We need a global revolution, not sparing out a single community on the planet. A peaceful revolution (Yes I know that's kind of a used concept) will be the only chance we have to survive. Stop militarism now. Stop ignoring the laws of life. Unite, don't divide.
So it goes.

Of Course, we wouldn't be giving Musharraf, a military dictator, billions of dollars if they weren't protecting our good ol' boy
hunkered down at the Afghan/Pakistan border.

i guess the $10 billion bribe since 2001 was insufficient.

Please, itsjustkarma. People have been killing, maiming and raping in the name of every religion that has existed since the beginning of time. In most cases it is the flimsiest excuse because the very religion they claim to follow devoutly PROHIBITS the very actions they take.

Currently, Bu$h the inferior claims all kind of Christian values just like Senator wide stance, and Hot tub Tom Delay. Their actions are immoral, illegal, and against Christ and Christians in every way. For a start, each of these guys has lied and failed to keep their oath of office that was taken on the bible they cynically disgrace.

Yet they do not REPENT and ask for forgiveness for their actions, as a Christian is required to do. All of these have gone on to cover up their crimes and lies, while falsely accusing those investigating their crimes of anything they can, to PERSONALLY, PROFESSIONALLY, and POLITICALLY discredit them.

I am absolutely certain that the list a historian could generate of false Buddhists (or any other belief, creed, or philosophy) would fill the pages of a large book. People in power are at least as corrupt as the rest of us and at least as self delusional about their honesty and goodness. Power can corrupt but in my opinion the corrupt are much more likely to seek power and much better at attaining it.

Earthian writes: "This kind of remorseless, lawless militarism in both parties (not including Kucinich and Ron Paul) is a great problem, and it appears will continue into the next administration."

I fear you're right, Earthian. Your parenthetical statement is even more insightful. Of all the candidates, Kucinich and Paul are by far the most representative of where the US public is. But a social democrat and a libertarian are just too threatening to the power elite. The two of them should set up a shadow government: I'm sure they could get some well-heeled think tank to sponsor it. It would go a long way to correct the problems of your one-party American system. Their voices will need to be heard during the fiasco that will be unleashed if idiot Bush carries out this threat against Pakistan's military regime.

its all been said so many times but now more than ever bush and his band of thugs need to be stopped by its people.will it happen?

I'd think that our senators would know that so-called"actionable intelligence" is what got us not only into Iraq but also into scores of other costly misadventures. Our intellience services have been mostly wrong since the CIA replaced the OSS in 1946.

What is rarer than the element californium is for America to get good intelligence.

Acting on false beliefs can be catastrophic. We may well bring to fruition the biblical prophesy of Armageddon through arrogance and pananoia. We took a major step in that direction when Britain and the U.S. supported the takeover of Arab lands to fulfill another fable embodied in Zionism.

Humanity is too hateful, reckless, and stupid to have nuclear weapons, enough to destroy this planet hundreds of times over.

Attacking Pakistan may well be not only our waterloo, but that of the world's.

The two of them (Kucinich & Paul) should just break away from this pathetic two party charade and become Greens. They could join Cynthia McKinny and Cindy Sheehan. They could start a movement among other progressives looking to find a better way.
I know - I know
Dream on...

It seems on every thread on CD these days Ron Paul's name pops up as someone who would join a ticket with Dennis Kucinich, or now, join the Green Party. Gimme a break. If you listen to the man, you'd know how ridiculous this sounds. He's a LIBERTARIAN, folks. While it is true he has arrived at the position that that the Iraq War must be ended now, he did so on a set of premises that almost point for point refute every progressive principles you could think of. I doubt the man would join the Green Party with a gun stuck to his head. Which, by the way, being an extremist on 2nd Ammendment rights, would mean he'd support your right to have that gun be a fully automatic assault rifle. Have you heard him speak about undocumented workers? Women's Rights? Welfare? Education? Health Care? ANYTHING?

Everyone knows the last 3 generations of bushes always support terrorists while creating terror organizations and most importantly raking in billions from war profiteering. Why would any country welcome a military lead by a known terrorist and war profiteer? Why the MSM in this country do not expose this vile scum's administration for what it is god only knows (and the billions they make by supporting these slimiest of thugs)?

Zoya wrote at 3:33 p.m. 1-6-08:

"Of all the candidates, Kucinich and Paul are by far the most representative of where the US public is. But a social democrat and a libertarian are just too threatening to the power elite. The two of them should set up a shadow government: "

Thanks for the comment Zoya. Both Kucinich and Paul disagree with the corporate conservative empire embraced by both parties, but for different reasons. Paul believes in non-intervention abroad, like most libertarians. Kucinich believes in only lawful intervention in accordance with international laws. Paul thinks international laws prevent national sovereignty. And he disavows the current roles of the federal government in US lives via the whole range of programs for people, from Medicare and Medicaid to Social Security. So I'm while progressives like Kucinich (and most CommonDreams readers) and libertarians like Ron Paul have common interests on the Constitution, civil liberties, non-preventative attacks and certain economic policies, there is a wide gulf on many fundamental assumptions, just as Drift points out just above at 4:37 p.m. Nevertheless, in a multi-party democracy like Ireland, Israel, German, Sweden, New Zealand and many others (not US, Canada, UK, France, and India for example) many such voices can be heard and the majority can learn from the successes and mistakes of a wide range of parties (say five to seven like German and New Zealand with a five percent threshold for the party vote). Then less activism is needed as power is in the legislature which forms a microcosm of the people. And public policy and public opinion match, which is the ideal of our Preamble anyway. Fixing this will require, if not a shadow government, at least a multi-group alliance of some kind, perhaps progressives (Green, Democrat and independent) and libertarians and evangelicals—all of which would benefit from a true multi-party democracy via proportional representation. And amending Article V along the lines of Montana's constitution to make amendments by popular vote. And more . . .

drift - Thanks for opening my eyes a little wider. You are so right.
In actuality I know very little about this man, Paul.
What I know, really, is what I've learned over the past 6 - 8 months
His rebel stance within the Republican party caught my attention.
I definitely jumped to conclusions. Thanks for setting me straight.
I stand humbled...

Why Kucinich sold us out again and gave his support to another "mainstream" Democrat is beyond me. His ideas are too independent and too different than these puppets to justify such cowardice on his part. He should run as an independent and see how many votes he can take away from these pretenders. Otherwise, it will continue to be more of the same with the Democrats, that is; screw the antiwar people, they will vote for whatever lukewarm, triangulating, mamby-pamby candidate that the Democratic party serves us because they have no place else to go. That is how we got John Kerry, and see how far that got us. Enough is enough with these cowards.

No American troops are needed in Pakistan, that is insane, a waste of American lives and of course money. ___ Nuke em __ before they nuke us.

Kem,

Surely you jest, no?

Iwhunt,

DK didn't sell us out as much as he sold himself out. And I'm not even really sure he did that. I've come to think his campaign is so chaotic and poorly run that it only looks that way. I still LOVE this guy, and I campaigned for him actively in 03 and 04, but this clusterf#ck in Iowa has been the last straw.

I'm trusting Nader now with his endorsement of Edwards. I've liked what Edwards has been saying for a couple of years now, but distrusted him based upon his votes for the war during his time in the Senate. I don't think Nader endorses lightly, so I'm holding my breath and pulling the lever Tuesday here in NH for Edwards.

Cosmiccharlie,

That's the 1st time EVER I've seen anyone, myself included, admit they might've been less than fully informed on a posting. You're clearly an honorable man. Kudos to you!

Yes, I was being sarcastic again.

moinansari wrote: "This will increase anti-Americanism in Pakistan and be detrimental to America."
As poll after poll shows virtually 100% of Pakistanis already loath American blitzing Afghans from 7 Oct 2001 till today, and counting, it's obvious there will be an almighty pressure-cooker effect if the Yanks lose their marbles & do anything as crazy as these newspaper reports fancy.

If any US forces were ever to set foot in Pakistan, Osama & Co. would be high five-ing each other since Dubya & Co. were stupid enough to go into Iraq. Just as Bush, Cheney, & Co.'s invasion of Iraq is as dumb a strategic move as Hitler's conduct of the Battle of Stalingrad, so a move into Pakistan would be as strategically catastrophic as the Battle of the Bulge. In fact, we should be truly worried that the Crawford, TX village idiot will try something as desperate as the Fuhrer did when the end game became apparent.

recieved from the DK campaign:

In answer to your questions about why I didn't support former Senator John Edwards on the second ballot in Iowa: I have serious concerns about his connections to a Wall Street hedge fund, Fortress Investment Group. While attacking others for accepting campaign money from Washington lobbyists, he is up to his ears in money from Wall Street special interests.
He made half a million dollars in a single year for attending a few meetings for Fortress and has invested a substantial part of his own personal wealth in the hedge fund whose portfolios are responsible for sub-prime predatory lending practices, Medicare privatization, and an entire range of corporate sharp dealings that are driving the middle class into poverty. end.

for what it's worth?

Not only are Bush and Cheney evil, they are idiots. Yes, Cheney too. Their policies are destroying our country.

The U.S. will never dominate Central Asia. It isn't going to happen, period, and the attempts to do so will only result in tragedy and sorrow for our nation and people.

They've already lost. China has a pipeline to transport oil from the Caspian Basin, and so does Russia. Those pipelines run to the north of the most forbidding huge mountains of Central Asia. The asinine Bush/Cheney plan is to run a pipeline through the Hindu Kush and the most reactionary, fundamentalist tribal areas in the world. For infidels to run a pipeline through there would be whack-a-mole with no way to win.

Trying to get a secure pipeline through the rugged and impenetrable geography of the big mountains of south Central Asia is an unparalleled boondoggle. And that is the real motivation, by the way, for the Reichstag fire attacks of 9/11/2001 so the U.S. Army could be employed to implement the idiotic pipe dream of a pipeline through Afghanistan and Pakistan (the tribal areas) to the Arabian Sea so Caspian oil could go to U.S. linked multinational oil conglomerates instead of China and Russia.

Impeach, convict, indict, convict,and imprison these fools.

Do you know that the head of the heroin mafia in Afghanistan is the puppet president Karzai's brother?

Yes, Halliburton and C.I.A. linked heroin and opium traders are doing great. So in Bush's warped mind, all these catastrophic blunders are big successes.

Earthian, your post at 5:03pm today was the most insightful and enlightened statement I've read in quite awhile. Thanks, a breath of fresh air indeed.

Heaveyrunner, your message here is informative, and I'm sure right on the mark from what I've read too. I've got a question for you. Do you know who Obama's Foreign Policy (FP) advisor is? I read that it was a writer by the last name of Brzezinski, who wrote a book advocating that we the USA, because of our status as world super power should take control of the Caspian Sea area of the middle east (Iraq/Iran/Afghanistan)for the purpose of controling the worlds largest oil source. and of course that damn pipeline, which by the way, Russia's Putin has already worked with other country's around the caspian sea to stop the bushies NEOCONS from ever accomplishing it. This guys theories fall right in place with the actions of the bushies. Is this guy really Obabma's foreign policy advisor? Man if this is so, I'll be damned if I'm voting for Obama, the last thing we need is for another NEOCON to get in office, democrat or not, I will not knowingly vote for anyone who promotes this evil sceem. GOD WHO THE HELL CAN WE VOTE FOR ???????

There's still time left to decide who to vote for as our next president. We should be focused on what this current president is getting us into now!!

To distract us from national issues at home - recession, unemployment, rising food costs, healthcare issues, etc. (shall I go on?); we are being distracted big-time by the media coverage of caucases and debates. Big deal - they're all liars! It's a pre-programmed spectacle...

In the meantime, Afghanistan is falling apart,
bombing Iran got dropped (for the moment) and
we don't hear about Iraq any more (?). So Pakistan is in the news, what else are they trying to cover up with all of this?

We need to keep our eyes and ears open - they're going to get us in a pack more of trouble before 2008 is over! What happen to Kucinich's motion to impeach?

Where's the unbiased media that used to give us all sides of the story? Thank goodness for the internet, blogs and website!

Now the neocons tell us we need to go into Pakistan, in the same way Kissinger and Nixon decided to attack Cambodia and Laos, in pursuit of the Islamabad Jihad Against the Enemies of God, or some such thing. As we have done in Iraq, we are creating the very demons we purport to slay. Al Qaeda did not exist there till we invaded, set one ethnic and religious group against another, and made ourselves hated. The more we turn up the heat and stir the pot, the more radical fundamentalism and anti-Americanism we cook up. When will we learn? George W. Bush has turned the US into a suicide bomber, self-destructing politically, legally, constitutionally and economically to exact revenge on people whose hatred of us is a product of our past interventions.

"United States planing to start a Civil War in Pakistan: Partitioning Pakistan"
http://www.chycho.com/?q=Civil_War_Pakistan

defiance,

What a stunning piece of information. Please post it again in in any of the more relevant topics here.

Wouldn't it be interesting if the Chinese and the Russians announced that they have "actionable intelligence" that George Bush is a war criminal and that regime change is needed in the U.S.? Putin and Hu wouldn't even have to write any speeches - they could just read Bush's speeches and substitute "Bush" for "Saddam." It would do Bush good to be on the receiving end of aggression for a change. Too bad Putin and Hu are such wusses.

Cosmicchalie I wouldn't be so quick to bow down to the constant Paul bashing on this site.
Dr Paul understands that government hand outs(from the giving away of the indiginus peoples land to medicare) are not always helpful. More often than not they are just a ruse played on the people by the elite.

Want an example of what happens when the people entrust the government to handle there affairs for them.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173

Ron Paul is exactly what the people need.

"That government is best which governs least."

Thomas Paine

Besides the the only way I can imagine a 3rd party in Washington is if Ron Paul wins the election ,then declares himself a member of the Libritarian Party.
Just like the Senator from New England did after the 2000 election.(Republican to Independent)

How do you think it would go if in 4 years 25% of the government came from the new party.

Abolish public education. Abolish ALL social services, including Medicare and Medicaid. Abolish Social Security. Turn over ALL these functions and more to the so-called "free market."

These are just some of the policy agendas a Ron Paul Administration would pursue. Now, if that sounds good to you, then vote for him. If, like me, you consider yourself progressive, which is to say that you actually believe the words, "Of the people, by the people, FOR the people...," then you should make common cause with him on those issues upon which you agree, namely American Imperialism and the need to end it, and otherwise run away from him in the other direction screaming.

Bravo for Pakistan... and SHAME on all nations that wink and grin, while doing business with the world's biggest bully and #1 obstacle to world peace!

The president of Equador(?) (or of some other budding Latin American country that is beginning to get out from under the empire's big fat thumb) told pissed off US officials that they could have a base in their country, if the US would let them have a military base in Florida.

Just for the record because a poster mentioned it the UK has many parties but three main parties, Labour, conservatives and Liberal democrats the fringe parties are the Green, Communist, BNP and others. The trouble is we have a first past the post system which allowed Blair to get a majority with only 37% support. Almost the whole of the U.K. were against the war but still voted for Labour for other reasons.

The USA desperately needs another mainstream party and the only way to get one is to reject the two right wing parties you have and form another one. It only takes hard work, and organisation.

By the way the US military is not welcome anywhere so why pick on Pakistan.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Ron Paul. He speaks so candidly, that it is shocking to a public grown accustomed to carefully calculated rhetoric.

No candidate, Kucinich included, has done as much as Ron Paul to educate the public about the war, and spoken out so tirelessly and intelligently against the constitutional abuses we are enduring.

Ron Paul's stance on immigration is not based on racism, but on an acknowledgement that our country has a right to set a limit on the amount of immigration allowable, and that limit should be enforced. Ron Paul has a vision for America that includes decreasing our incredibly bloated government, and eliminating corrupt and ineffective establishments such as the IRS.

This man is honest, intelligent and radical. If he were President, we would almost certainly have a complete and immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq. That would solve our second biggest problem rather handily.

Unfortunately, he is weak on the environment, and of course, the environment is the world's biggest issue. But merely ending unnecessary wars wouild be a tremendous benefit to the environment.

Suter, Read the item at tomgram.com today for a review of that piece of shit movie you mentioned. Chalmers Johnson reviews it. No thinking american should waste one cent of their $$ to see this crap.

I have a forty two pound cocker spaniel. How can I get him on the ballot? He is very well trained.

"Films and other art forms play a part in influencing our national perspective"

Don't they, though(!)...for 'real'-History: Click my Name...all the 'background&Info' required, on one/convenient Page.

Forget it.

rgmccom, Thanks for the tip. I couldn't connect with tomgram.com but got routed to Peace, Power and Politics. (?)

Didn't really "enjoy" the movie, so to speak; I'm looking for background and information to have greater understanding of different points of view. Films and other art forms play a part in influencing our national perspective.

How many billions does Pakistan get for its military from the US? That is a huge factor to include in any analysis. What is being reported is not necessarily true.

Vezzini in "The Princess Bride":

"Haha.. you fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is: Never get involved in a land war in Asia."

Truer words were never spoken. It's too big.

This is nonsense ... the Pakistani Army just doesnt want this kinda media focus on its 60 year old partnership with the U.S. They need to protest publicly to dispel any notions of U.S. involvement in Pakistan.

'The truth is the U.S. and Pakistan have always been joined at the hip and this latest attempt to 'send in the marines' has Musharrafs blessing. However, they would rather have this done without the media butting in. They (U.S. and Pakistan) would rather do this under cover and not have it announced in the Times !

The moment its exposed Musharraf and his boys have to pretend they are against it or risk mayhem. As usual MSM analysis is skewed and we all seem to swallow it judging by the posts. We already have 1000's of troops in Pakistan (not 50 !!!). American drones have been hitting targets within Pakistan using intelligence provided by Pakistan these last few years.'

Max--"Bravo for Pakistan… and SHAME on all nations that wink and grin, while doing business with the world's biggest bully and #1 obstacle to world peace!"

This statement shows how easily we buy into what the media spits out. Our collective hatred of all things 'Bush' clouds the reality of the situation. The Pakistani Army is the most insiduous and corrupt instituition in that part of the globe. They completely control the Pakistani people and the economy.

The best thing to do in this situation is to cut off aid to the Pakistani Army (50% of which is used for weapons against India and the other 50% is swallowed by the Army and its Generals) and enable democratic instituitions in Pakistan.