Thank all of you who have the courage and dedication to confront the hyprocrisy of the system, and especially your efforts in confronting individual candidates who run for elective office but refuse to respond to critics of their policies. I don't see your efforts as 'flaccid' or 'ineffective,' but rather as a demonstration that at least some are willing to put their lives, safety and security in jeopardy in an attempt to make this a saner world for us all. Again, thank you.

MIRF59 -- Self-interest can be overthrown, attachments can be detached from, the center of one's life is our individual choice, and altruism is naturally found in children.

Although you may think that you "have no problem with Buddha or Atheists who use only the razor of the mind," your comments indicate that you are at best only on a cursory level of understanding of Buddhism.

That you stridently say "I am 100% confident that all paths converge on the insanity of all this abysmal warring," indicates 1st that you are not, and 2nd, it is basic human nature that is the underlying issue of causing suffering, and "abysmal warring" -- not the religions.

The "paths" converge on elucidating the intrinsic factors that pull mankind along, and his spiritual center (which you barely mention) and are optimistic in abating those innate tendencies, whereas history shows rather poor record of moral successes.

If I may guess, you are one who pragmatically sees nothing but physical existence, and may acknowledge that some others claim to have had spiritual experiences (but you discount those).

This is far from my own precepts, that place my spiritual life as my true existence, that is occurring while I'm contained in a physical world. Neither point of view can be objectively proven, but the later has been empowering many for the ages.

Consider that the Buddha observed that all of life is suffering (not avarice, as you appear to believe), and that only by focusing on detaching from those innate attachments to things (materialism) can we hope to discover some measure of peace in our lives. Greed and avarice are simply (to me) the externalized pursuit of excessive consumption, as if that might bring peace.

For you to advocate a "pseudo-rational philosophy that supports avarice [as] Objectivism", is (to me) putting the cart before the horse.

nspire,

Apologies, but I do not understand your post at all. I think you might also have misunderstood me and mine. Peace to you, and good luck.

Jesus has a history of bombing non-christian brown skin peoples. Does this mean Jesus was a racist? Probably. The Christian belief in Dominion require these actions to spread the faith and to save souls. It is written in their Bible.
Denial is just another christian tactic.

Wow. 50 something ex-hippy protestors. So very, very flaccid and ineffective.

What did they think they would accomplish?

"Jesus has a history of bombing non-christian brown skin peoples."

HUH!?!??? Jesus didn't BOMB anyone! Good grief.

Being a Christian is hard work - Love your neighbor as yourself. Do not commit murder. Do not commit adultery. Honor your father and your mother. Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not covet your neighbor's wife or belongings. Keep the sabbath. Do not take the lord's name in vain. Do not make any idols (money, Wall Street, big corporations, etc) and do not bow down before them. Do not worship any other gods before Him.

I don't know anyone who is able to keep the Ten Commandments perfectly. I know that I sure don't. As I said, being a Christian is hard work.

Do I want the war in Iraq to end? You bet! Do I want the U.S. to attack Iran? HELL NO!!!

Just how many innocent women and children must be murdered and maimed to produce the second (or first) coming of the Savior? We already had the Great Flood so what's next? The Great Comet?

keyinside, what have you done or accomplished yourself? nothing! At least these people have the nerve to shake the establishment.

Jesus is an unreachable standard, but you are to try if you are a real Christian. I would settle for WWLD from political leaders. What would Lassie do?

Christianity was once a subversive/socialistic religion which preached the throwing out of moneychangers and pharisees. Since Constantine it has been the religion of Empire. Old Germanic beliefs, the swastika, etc. were not particularly harmful until Hitler got his hands on them. Up to a point, anyway, it isn't the religion to blame -- it's the Empire behind it, and the necessary modications/interpretations/etc. which it demands of any system, and its followers.

Western Buddhism, much smaller in comparison, has tried to jettison racial/tribal/war-like tendencies. It's never become religion of Empire, at least not in modern times, but is arguably better positioned than the patriarchal/abrahamic/middle-eastern/tribal systems at ease of co-option.

Last time I looked, the USA was in the habit of blessing it's bombs prior to delivery.
THAT is how Jesus bombs people.

Faith is a mental illness, not a virtue.

ODOCO
very clever

BETFISKE

those commandements are really sound. and not that hard to comply to if you have morals and ethics. just a bit difficult for non-christians.

Sometimes to win, you have to cut and run.

I don't think the intent of the original article was to stimulate debate on the merits or demerits of faith - and those of you who demand to make it the central thesis of your argument are missing the point.

What is truly illustrative of this article is Huckabee's spokesperson stating that
"The governor said the way to end this war
is to win it. They clearly have a
different position, and there position is
to cut and run . . "
Now think about it - what is more important, someone's fixation concerning modern Christianity, or Huckabee campaign's exact reiteration of the Bush line on Iraq? I would not argue that his extremist, prosyletizing view of Christianity is a concern, but if you keep attacking the forest and disregard the trees you will never realize clear sky in the end. Philosophize all you want, but don't lose sight of the finites of this campaign - don't attack in general - attack specific points that cannot be supported - that is the only way we take control of the system - and of OUR government.

Look at the photo chosen for this article. Basically all of the candidates wear religion (of Empire) on their lapel, and so the message on the sign is not accidental.

They've all stood in line at the symbol buffet. The only symbols on their plates are outwardly pleasing, but have gone bad inside.

I'm a Unitarian - we call them the ten suggestions.

When religion enters democracy the latter suffers. Democracy requires a full discussion of issues. When true believers like Huckabee base their stands on religious beliefs (eg. the literal truth of the bible) the dialoque ends.

Contrary to what the christian right would have you believe, the separation of church and state is a critical founding principle of our country. Let's bring it back.

You're right odoco, the intent of the article wasn't to stimulate debate on the merits or demerits of faith, but the threat to our religious freedom (read freedom from religion) is too great at this time to ignore.

Jesus W.: War Preznit

Spirituality requires the full exploration as well. Religion is to spirituality the way government is to self-determination.

"What would Jesus do?" has been turned into a cynical joke in political circles. It is used to marginalize those who are hopelessly out of touch, supposedly, with the rules of the game.

The rules of the game right now are such that Jesus has nothing to do with any decision-making process at any step in policy formation -- foreign or domestic.

We should not forget that Bush 43 has no role in policy. He merely signs the papers he is presented by the gatekeepers such as Cheney and Rove.

In this, our leaders mimic the public. We have a citizenry that by in large has no problem with singing hymns on Sunday and bombing brown people, depriving the dispossessed of the basics at home, and the whole gamut of ruthless and self-promoting decadence all seven days of the week.

Maybe the question is -- if Jesus had one bomb He had to drop -- where would He drop it? I think I know the country and the city where it would fall.

Simply put, Christian morality has no place in policy dialogue in this country. What is right and good is not an input into any significant equation.

What is right and good may have departed ways from organized religion from the get-go.

Perhaps all ideologies bootstrapping basic human kindness have proven capable of subverting it.

This protest was a counterproductive waste of time and effort. The only people affected by it would be the people who wouldn't be voting for Huck anyway. The campaign comments cleverly turns the protest into an method of vitalizing the GOP base.

How ridiculous.

Wow ... as usual, the left aims its guns at its allies and opens fire.

Thanks to the people out there actually doing something. These three protesters are worth many internet whiners.

Of course, what really needs to happen is for a bigger crowd to be back today. And an even bigger crowd tomorrow. And that on top of the same thing happening in every Potus-wannabee office today and tomorrow. And more of the same in NH.

D n G -- There's a very moving HBO(?) special on the MIC "Costs of War", which poignantly investigated the reversal of a father's support for blessing the bombs.

What makes it especially relevant to this thread's comments, was because the father (of a dead marine) who went out of his way (asking Congress People … ) to have a bomb labeled and dropped specifically for his son, later found out about all of the Iraq & 911 lies.

He then tried unsuccessfully to stop the defacing of his son's sacrifice, and later got a picture of the "jesus bomb" that they
did drop for his son's "memory"

Paul B,

The moral teachings of basically all organized religions are righteous and good. In fact, there's really not a lot of disagreement about what is right and what is wrong. Don't kill your neighbor, steal his stuff, lie to him, sweet on his wife. Honor your parents, love God and one another. Strive to better yourself. Admit when you do wrong and try to make good. Etc. You could say there is a universal morality. There is near universal agreement around the the world as to what is good and what is bad.

The problem is certainly not that organized religion is bad but rather that it is irrelevant.

We currently have a President that claims to be a Christian. Simultaneously, he works -- when he works -- to undermine Christ's teachings around the world in almost everything he does.

Personally, I know Christians who seem fanatical if observed in Church services -- some attending daily. Many of those same people have no problem with bombing foreigners, capital punishment, social inequity, etc.

Fundamentally, morality is of no consequence in policy discourse in America -- except as a punch line in reference to poor schmucks such as those pictured above.

The religion hat comes off when the policy hat is placed on. There's a sort of bifurcation of the mind, and the conscience has very limited dominion.

Though it's true we have an official separation of Church and State, we are still supposedly a nation of god-fearing people, some 80% or more of whom claim to have a serious faith of some kind.

In fact, it's a joke. It starts with each individual. When we have our government slaughtering foreigners for economic gain here -- American foreign policy in a nutshell -- it is time to challenge all the assumptions.

That this does not happen means that faith is, by in large, weak and too limited among Americans as individuals.

Or, perhaps we are incapable of understanding the fundamentals of the faith as could be grasped by a Kindergarten reader they are so explicitly stated in all the holy books of the world.

It's nice to see people who are willing to fight the good fight.

this is over my head. three people arrested for what?? i'm out of here. NATURE SAVE YOU ALL................

mirf59,

I agree with much of what you said, but I would add the following counterpoints.

* Faith lacks objective/empirical criteria to be separated from psychosis, hearing voices, hallucination, etc. I'm not referring to faith-as-emotion or faith-as-feeling, but faith-as-explanatory-device or faith-as-something-you-act-upon.
* Belief is not something that people can turn on or off like a switch. Where people do harbor it, it is the culmination of culture, life's experiences, education, observations, upbringing, etc. There are things people hold to be true, false, or unknown. Believing something to be true or false when, in actuality, it is unknown/uncomputable is irrational.

This mindset has opened the door to further logical mishaps over the centuries. It primes the audience.

There's at least one "spirituality" which demands no faith: Buddhism.

Why should religion be based on faith anyway? If you're referring to the Golden Rule and its variants, there is no need of faith whatsoever. Objective observation is sufficient to see the fruits of one's actions to one's neighbor.

I think Huckabee is a good Christian and has many doubts and much remorse about the war. He has to walk that tightrope and not alienate the neocon faithful. Unlike Bush, and especially Cheney, he is a man of conscience. I doubt he would have started the war if he was president at the time.

What is weird to me is the debate should be: "Can a man of deeply rooted Christian faith be trusted to authorize war, even when its absolutely necessary". Not how much he goes along with the neocon BS.

Its good those folks rattled his cage. Hopefully it reminded him of what he really believes.

I hope he gets nominated and loses the election, then reorganizes the Republicans to be a party of conscience, and based on shared values, not imposition of single issues, sectarian bible interpretations, and the radical conservative ideology du jour. For example, beliefs like Creationism have to take a back seat to practical matters such as global warming.

Paul B,

Yeah. Sure. No problem. You can arrive at exactly the same ethics using logic.

Logic would immediately rule out all our current foreign policy strategies on grounds that they have all been tried and proven to be disastrous in the long term.

Violence is never going to result in lasting peace. Any student of logic and history would be compeled to reject any strategy based on brute projection of force as erroneous based on a mountain of empirical evidence stretching back 3000 years to the first legitimate historical account by Thucydides of the Peloponnesian War.

In our case, the present course is sure to bring about our eventual collapse at the hands of another power that will rise up, and justifiably, will strike us down for all our sins.

Maybe it's China. Maybe it's a united Europe, a united Asia. Who knows.

Anyway, others believe in God. Many in the US believe God took the form of man and came down and preached His teachings directly. Then, that those teachings were captured in accurate and overlapping historical accounts which survive unaltered in print to this day. For those people, the words of God directly from His mouth are enough and they will not be straining the logical mind to better them.

Anyway, we seem to have an American public that lacks both faith (or spiritual depth if you prefer per Buddhism), and decent critical thinking skills. So, the door is open for Dick Cheney et al.

I guess the basic point I'm trying to make is this -- the problem is not that Huckabee refuses to think about "Who would Jesus bomb?" -- but rather that all the people who continue to support these violent candidates refuse to ask that question and answer it for themselves.

Love It! I am convinced that at the top, all of the world's big religions talk to each other and share the wealth they bring in to their churches, temples and mosques.

NORMA J

you forgot the synagogues..............

Here's a little tip for all of the many of you out there who apparently hate Christians........

The people who work the hardest to tell that they are Christians, are the least likely to be Christians.

Based on what I've heard, Huckabee is no Christian. God knows Bush is no Christian.

So when you get "Christian" shoved down your throat, ignore it. As the song says, "you will know them (Christians) by their love."

These are the lyrics to a common Christian hymn by poet, Lloyd Stone which more closely represent what we (Christians) are meant to be:

THIS IS MY SONG

This is my song, O God of all the nations,
a song of peace for lands afar and mine;
this is my home, the country where my heart is;
here are my hopes, my dreams, my holy shrine:
but other hearts in other lands are beating
with hopes and dreams as true and high as mine.

My country's skies are bluer than the ocean,
and sunlight beams on cloverleaf and pine;
but other lands have sunlight too, and clover,
and skies are everywhere as blue as mine:
O hear my song, thou God of all the nations,
a song of peace for their land and for mine.

May truth and freedom come to every nation;
may peace abound where strife has raged so long;
that each may seek to love and build together,
a world united, righting every wrong;
a world united in its love for freedom,
proclaiming peace together in one song.

Amen

The Huckster, a preacher who has found politics more appealing and potentially lucrative than televangelism, could have engaged the protesters in an honest dialogue. He could have explained to them how he reconciles his foreign policy with the Gospels and agreed to disagree. But he took the autocratic low road and used the police to silence opposition. I'm not an astrologer or a prophet, but this isn't a good omen.

There have been more wars in the name of Christianity than any other religion. Don't get angry with me, this is simply a historic fact. When are we going to learn to do good things because we are human and not because of belief in some grim fairy tale? There may be a creative energy from the universe, but it has nothing to do with religion. Fact: Human thought has created and invented all the religions throughout the world.

Kathy Kelly isn't just some 50-something ex-hippy protester with nothing better to do than stand outside in freezing cold temperatures in front of Huckabee's office. This is Kathy Kelly, long time activist and author of "Other Lands Have Dreams: From Baghdad to Pekin Prison". She has spent much of her time over the years in Iraq (before the war and after)bringing medicine and aid to children during the genocidal sanctions, and even went to prison for doing it. She invited the State Dept. to assist in her humanitarian efforts, but they preferred to put her in prison (I believe for 6 months this last time) for trying to undo some of their damage. She continues to go there, has many close friends there and has incredible compassion for the Iraqi people. So for her, the war isn't just some abstract thing to protest -- this is personal for her.

She is a remarkable person, living her convictions to the nth degree. In her book (which I highly recommend), the first several pages are a list of the times she has been arrested for the causes she believes in. She is Catholic (liberation theology type) and is absolutely one of my all time heros and someone I deeply respect. Kathy's activism comes from such a place of love and forgiveness - do a search on CommonDreams - there are many articles by her in the archives. These freeper bozos don't have a clue or anyone in their midst who could ever hold a candle to her courage and honor.

Oh, and did I mention she has been nominated 3 times for the Nobel Peace Prize?

wHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EACH DAY THE NUMBER OF PROTESTERS DOUBLED?

"Christians alone are Biblically mandated to occupy all secular institutions until Christ returns--and there is no consensus on when that might be."

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

"The 'hard' version of dominionism is explicitly theocratic or "theonomic," as the Christian Reconstructionists prefer to be called. Their eventual goal is to achieve the 'Kingdom of God' in which much of the world is converted to Christianity."

The "Requirement" was a Christian document that was read by the Spanish to the American Indians. If the Indians refused to convert to Catholicism they were butchered. The Spanish alone butchered twelve million Indians.

The Saudi's killed 2700 Americans on 9/11 and Christian America killed 1,200,000 brown skinned Iraqi's. Shock and Awe were all Jesus bombs.

http://www.theocracywatch.org/dominionism.htm

Nspire, The "Costs of War" sounds deeply tragic. I cannot imagine what that father must feel today.

Christians thus far have not confronted their demons. They are in deep denial and so the killing continues in the name of their god, jesus. What horrid monsters these Christian Churches are.

He entered through the back door of the building hmmm for once I would love to see one of these cowards(candidates) actually confront face on the actual people who vote and confront their concerns instead of plopping themselves on stages & podiums as if they were holier than thou with no regard for the american voice.

mirf59,

Ethics, like logic, is traditionally and classically seen as a subset of philosophy. If you can aim us at any point in Western history during which the Church was the clear vanguard of ethics I'll give you a cee-gar.

The root problem is the bootstrapping of basic kindness to your fellow neighbor with something else. People should feel free to believe whatever they want. I'm talking about the realm of action here. Belief is cheap.

The commandment is "Thou should not kill" -- not the revisionist "Do not commit murder" given above.

Jesus was an oppurtunist. That was why the Jewish high priest went to Pilate and complained. He was cutting in on their action at the temple. There is not one American tax paying Christian alive now that is going to heaven. American tax dollars have helped to murder 1,200,000 Iraqi's. God knows everything!. He knows if you pay your taxes. Does anyne ever think of the Germans in WWII that were against Hitler but stayed living in Germany? No, nobody does! They were just like the majority of the American people are now, COMPLACENT! The Americans of the early 21st century will be known as muderous and ruthless. All Americans, regardless of the so called good intentions of some.

Huckabee thinks the Earth is 6,000 years old. The very idea of someone that wrong about the nature of reality being in charge of a nation is staggering. He has, in past, advocated quarantining AIDS patients -- and this well after the cause of AIDS was known. He openly says homosexuals are perverse sinners, though he concedes he believes all people are sinners. Wonderful. I so hoped to be ruled by a person who starts with believing all humans to be damned by default. And that's not even considering the unfortunate incident in which one of his children tortured a dog to death. I suppose I shouldn't consider that but it does not impress me with his leadership abilities.

We're not just talking Christian, here, we're talking about a Southern Baptist. If he wants to preach, he should stay at his pulpit. If he wants to govern this nation, he should value our Constitution and quote it instead of the Bible. If he's elected, it's the middle of the end for a free nation.

Paul B,

I am not sure what qualifies one as "vanguard of ethics".

The moral teachings of Jesus are the most stringent ever taught. Since they haven't been altered since he came, those teachings are the highest standard of moral conduct from the moment they were taught until the present day.

You can hear them daily in an Orthodox Church, a Catholic Church, an Episcopal, Lutheran Church, other Protestant denominations, etc.

Alternatively, you can pick up the New Testament and simply read it.

Have there been corrupt Church officials? Sure. Have brutal wars been fought, people slaughtered in the name of Christ? You bet. Maybe Bush and some of his supporters view both Iraq and Afghanistan that way right now.

Has the Church inserted itself in politics or accumulated political power as an end to itself at some point in antiquity? Yeah.

Does any of that alter the fact that the teachings of Christ are the highest standard of moral conduct and that people who claim to follow him should aspire to emulate his example and understand his teachings? No, not one lick.

You may also want to check out the Eightfold Path and compare.

You'll first note that the Abrahamic/war-god religions often phrase their codes in the negative: what you are not supposed to do. This is standard in the command/patriarchal middle-eastern mythologies and legal systems.

I've got nothing against those teachings in principle, and would direct you to read Thich Nhat Hanh's "Jesus and Buddha as Brothers" but I take great issue at the chauvenism exhibited by people who claim to have a monopoly on ethics. It is that attitude, friend, despite a world of rich religious and mythological beliefs, and no-beliefs, and the sneaking-under-the-door of a bootstrapped process around basic humanistic principles that is the great undoing.

Paul B,

No claim of monopoly here. I think we have a misunderstanding. Buddha is a righteous path. Jesus is a righeous path. Allah is a righteous path. Yahweh is a righteous path.

One could quibble endlessly about the minute differences and ignore the vast area of common ground. Or, one could take a strictly secular and rational approach and arrive in the same place.

The journey and the destination are important. I guess I think a lot of Americans who claim to be on the journey must not be, as they continue to support these bloodlust candidates.

Or, there is a sort of break in the mind when it comes to evaluating policy and neither logic, nor ethics, nor an enlightened sense of righteousness born of spiritual yearning seems to have any effect on the results.

Cloaked in the idea of the separation of Church and state is the curious notion that one must forget one's personal morality altogether in intelligent civic dialogue. NONSENSE!!

That's another way to state my point.

I have no problem with Buddha or Atheists who use only the razor of the mind. I am 100% confident that all paths converge on the insanity of all this abysmal warring.

As always, it's nothing but pure avarice and the only spirituality I know of that embraces avarice is the American Church of Satan -- perhaps not a solid moral basis for foreign policy. The pseudo-rational philosophy that supports avarice is Objectivism. In fact, Objectivism even leans toward advocating greed as a moral imperative.

That's what you are up against, my friend, not the Jewish carpenter from Nazareth and the Church he founded.

MIRF59 -- I'm getting better at misunderstanding people this week. Not to worry, I jumped into your exchange w/ Paul B, w/o really understanding.

My stuff was FYI, for whatever it worth