nspire,

You are awfully certain of the "facts" considering you weren't there.

I simply refuse to rush to judgement as I seem to recall reading somewhere or other that that was somebody else's responsibility.

Personally, I loathe the Bush Administration and would not believe it if they told me the sky was blue. It just disturbs me that so many of the folks on this site are always willing to believe the worst out of the military/police and so few have any experience living in their worlds. If you applied the same standards to any other sub-part of our culture, you would be labeled insensitive at best.

I am unsure of most things, particularly when I haven't witnissed the goings on myself. I deny the ability to see into someone else's mind and determine whether premeditaion existed or not. If you "nspire" to that kind of God-like ability...., well good luck with that.

Yet another example of the MIC protecting its own. Justice for civilians is non-existent.

KENDPOTTER — "Awfully certain," as you say is how I do feel, knowing that this type of activity is what goes for nominal.

What usually doesn't happen, is the refusal to go on patrol after having been hit, because the marines knew that they might kill civilians out of anger, as was described here on CD in Dec

OK. So. It isn't murder.

If I were Charles Manson's attorney I'd be asking for a new trial about now.

It's tradition. We invade countries, carry out war crimes, and walk away Scot free. After all, if our country is engaged in pillage and murder, why not the individuals serving it? You know, the trickle down theory.

kathyodat

"The size of the lie is a definite factor in causing it to be believed, for the vast masses of the nation are in the depths of their hearts more easily deceived than they are consciously and intentionally bad. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders them a more easy prey to a big lie than a small one, for they themselves often tell little lies but would be ashamed to tell a big one."
Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

"They wrote in the old days that it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country. But in modern war there is nothing sweet or fitting in your dying. You will die like a dog for no good reason."
Ernest Hemingway

"You believe you are dying for the fatherland - you die for some industrialists."
Anatoly Franace

"We are mad, not only individually, but nationally. We check manslaughter and isolated murders; but what of war and the much vaunted crime of slaughtering whole peoples?"
Lucius Annaeus Seneca - the Younger, Roman statesman, philosopher

"In individuals insanity is rare, but in groups, parties, nations and epochs it is the rule."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth is revolutionary."
George Orwell

Occasionally a gaffe needs a fall guy, apparently this one did not.

The question is whether it's a qualitative or quantitative fine line which must be crossed. Is the act of killing unarmed civilians innately wrong -- or is it just a matter of magnitude? If it were 240 instead of 24? 2,400? 24,000? 240,000? 2,400,000?

Really good marinesSwear an oath to the Constitution, and are honorably proud to recognize a dis-empowering management (gov't) and illegal war.

They refuse illegal orders that will compromise their standards and the future possible exercise of carrying out a legitimate confrontation.

They understand that no one deserves to die, as that is for civilized justice to decide, far from the 'heat of the battle'.

In particular, these marines themselves do not deserve to die in the service of a criminal enterprise, regardless of the chain of command, as we all hold their blood sacrifice to the highest of values to protect and serve their community

Average through really bad marines just kill indiscriminately and are pardoned of any moral compass "violations".

They easily swear at and feel completely justified in hating any of those who attempt to hold them to the honorable standards, or ask warriors to not like war or killing.

That's just so un-American to not support our troops, and those people don't deserve the America paid for with their blood.

Shame, America, shame.

This is not his fault, the fault lies with the President and all the other insane people who sent this young man there.

'Fault' lies with the manner in which we expose these young-men to 'conditioning' obviously inclining them towards these kinds of obscenities...and I mean from birh-forward (not just Paris Island).

Another reason we should ratify and participate in the International Criminal Court. These 4 marines ought to have been tried by the ICC, to avoid the charges of leniency and coverup that the world can now legitimately accuse us of.

I am curious as to why so many of the readers of this column are pre-disposed to believe that the men are guilty? That not only are they guilty, that they are guilty of premeditated murder.

This predisposition exists in the absence of facts found by a jury and is compounded by a thorough ignorance of their (the Marines) world.

This faith (belief in absence of facts) in their guilt derives from what? They are in the military, ergo they are inherently evil?

Bush hung Saddam, these killers should be turned over to the Iraqi for stoning.

kendpotter,

After all the lies, cronyism, greed and incompetence of this administration and its intellectual forbears (Bush Sr, Reagan, Ford, Nixon), why the hell should we believe anything they say at this point?

As character witnesses, this administration, and any of its actions, comes up wanting.

But it's also a matter of procedure. The military is investigating itself here. Since habeas corpus has been tossed out, the military also apparently has ultimate jurisdiction over civilians as well.

Is there any reason to believe in unbiased process when entities investigate themselves?

As Gomer Pyle, the ultimate Marine would say--Surprise, Surprise, Surprise!

It is not possible to follow the dictates of the current regime as a soldier and not be involved in war crimes. Congress is supposed to regulate the military so that soldiers are not ordered and threatened into war crime producing situations. The president is not to give orders that result in war crimes. Illegal orders are to be prevented, not given and not followed. It is too much to expect the soldier to be the ONLY resistance in the system.

Failure to regulate, oversee, and impeach by Congress has allowed a war criminal president to overwhelm unprepared soldiers.

KENDPOTTER -- I really find it hard to believe that you post on this site, read, and then dare to bring up "due process" as it applies to our armed serviceman?

The article clearly states:
"Twenty-four Iraqi civilians, including three women, seven children and several elderly men"

Please try to explain to me why you suppose that killing the obvious half (13 women/children/elderly, of 24 dead) was in any way culpable or "asking for" the ultimate solution (aka terminate with extreme prejudice). Would not this article have mentioned weapons or deadly threats?

There is no release from the rules of engagement, because they were angry due to the death of a fellow marine.

There is no possible explanation for condoning torturing and killing people to create fear and terror, to wit, even civilian crimes committed during commission of a felony are always viewed as more severe than when occurring alone.

Don't you recall the insidious prisoner abuses of torture and prolonged suffering?

Sorry, the heat of war doesn't cut it. This the stuff of war crimes, but justice never can happen while the perpetrators hold the edge of control (and information) - only an international investigation and independent review of all of the evidence can truly assign a just verdict.

There is a reason why these vets are increasingly committing suicide when they return to the USA. When back among normal people they (most likely) realize the depths of their depravity - and can no longer live with themselves, especially w/o the banter and ranked and filed community support of shared murder [ remember: for saving our democracy against people that hate our freedoms … … (dribble, drop, plop, splash) ].

¿ If things were so hunky dory, why do they kill themselves?
¿ Could it be because us progressives just don't understand what they've gone through, and we judge them too harshly, w/o knowing all the facts ?

Our gov't creates killing machines, and then ships us back their carcases devoid of nominal humanity, and we wonder why they do crazy things?

I wonder why more of them don't go postal (probably because they still feel the vestiges of the illusion that they're somewhat supported by the gov't and the American people - which isn't going to last - witness Viet Nam vets).

Don't you get the fact that part of the cost of illegal USA corpo-fascist war-mongering is the damage it imposes on our surviving serviceman (and their families, and those of us with compassion to attempt to understand)?

Ah, so this is what "support the troops" ultimately comes down to.

Disgusting.

War is licensed murder. Support the concept of war and idolise the military, and this is what you get.

When was the last time a "victorious" army had anyone tried for war crimes? I agree with Markson, we are supposed to "support our troops" come what may. I strongly believe that a great number of people "enlist" nowadays, just to see the kind of action they have only ever witnessed on a Playstation. There are still people joining the armed forces - why? What type of person is willing to join in this massacre of innocent people?

So much for the country who stands for justice and equality.

This is an excellent example of the reason so many people around the world hate Americans. Not for your freedom, not for your wealth, not for your technology or your way of life, but for the crime committed by your soldiers in the name of your freedom, for the crime committed by your government so safeguard "your way of life" and for the crime committed by your proxy armies, mercenaries, thugs and terrorists who do the dirty job that your troops and/or your government does not want to do.

There is no country on earth that would blindly support it's troops when they commit such hurrendous crimes 1000s of miles away from home and have the guts to call themselves a civilized society. As much as I love many people in America, I am just disgusted by the repeated crimes committed and supported by your government with no reaction from the public to put an end to this.

The shame of Haditha will go into history as an example of American arrogance and disrespect for human life of "others" not worthy of same justice as a dog would have had in your country. If sgt Wuterich had killed 24dogs in your country after he was attacked by one, he would have been called a psychopath, blood thirsty crazy bastard, but since those he killed were Iraqis, his action is not being seen as equally evil. After all, they were just Iraqis, and by definition, guilty by birth, until the prove it otherwise.

This Administration has let it be known from day one it had literally no respect for these 'Rag Heads'! They were so much dirt under Bush's feet and the cowboy was going to destroy any opposition to his ambitions for oil. So that kind of an attitude is bound to trickle down through the ranks to those fighting this war and begin to infect the ranks with a savage attitude. I imagine when this mess is over we will find out how bad our leadership has really been!

We won't prosecute our guilty and then withdraw from International courts so nobody can prosecute them either. That way we can kill and threaten as many people as we desire to protect our INTERESTS.

Farhad

"If sgt Wuterich had killed 24dogs in your country after he was attacked by one, he would have been called a psychopath, blood thirsty crazy bastard, but since those he killed were Iraqis, his action is not being seen as equally evil."

Very true. This country loves their dogs more than "them colored folk!"

Video of the killings captured by a spy aircraft.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/08/31/haditha.video/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

Spartanladkenny,
Thanks for the link, the video is even worse than the news. It is so disgusting to read and listen to these guys.

That's a great way to "win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people."

And, kendpotter:
I "wasn't there" at the Mai Lai massacre, where U.S. troops murdered in cold blood about 500 Vietnamese civilians; and I wasn't at Abu Ghraib when U.S. military personnel tortured, raped, and killed Iraqi prisoners. However, I am "awfully certain" that those awfully horrific incidents did occur. If we are going to base our reality on "being there," well, hell, the earth is flat.

Shreeram
http://www.worldviewsblog.blogspot.com/