moon--- I didn't "reject your points without consideration." I rejected anger as a 'one-upsman' point of view. I certainly respect your right to be there, I just pointed out that I've been there (am still there, but that "anger" isn't a program, certainly, at least, not an effective one). In saying so, it certainly comes from experience.

Beyond that, as with the brother (or sister) that suggested that 'left and right' were terms that clouded, rather than explained the issues, I believe that speaking of "working within," or "without" the system are also problematic. I think it would be much better to discuss what is or isn't effective, how to build our struggle so that we can win.

If we are to win natl. health care, for example, (or end the war, green jobs, etc.) we need to have an approach that can move the masses of people. I suggested that there is now a massive labor-led people's movement being built around just these issues, and that this movement is the place that all of us can coalease around. This isn't something I'm making up, unions and allies are holding organizing sessions in all the major cities, preparing to launch efforts to fight to win this program in the coming year. Further, the elections can be one (certainly not the only one, but one) of the major battlegrounds in the coming year. I do not see any logic in standing aloof from battles that the American people will be involved in. In fact, the peace movement here has been doing just that and it just plain is not helpful or effective and it alienates the people that we have to reach.

Meanwhile, the people's movement is going to be built. It would seem logical that we invite all of our friends to participate.

Here's hoping (and working for) a great, much, much better New Year!

MOONRAVEN, PAUL BRAMSCHER -- I'm totally enraged with my country's pathetic state of democracy (and crimes) - and want it back from the fascists - as you both similarly express.

As Paul clearly states, we are all in this against a common enemy, whose ancestor's and us (today) owe massive reparations to native Americans, African Americans, … … …

The records hardly matter, but my blood traces back to Jamestown (and almost certainly to some native Americans too), which provides me a basis to ask that we compassionately put aside insignificant differences, contrasted to stark and wicked differences (to fascists).

I also rage against the dying of the LIGHT, and oddly (like synchronicitygoogle) we also share the selection of

"… Anger as the Deadly Sin with which I had the most affinity"

I appears to me as if I am today re-living my ancestor's lives, especially when I discover BlackWater (sewage) is dwelling close to the swamps that Francis Marion (and my relatives) used to snipe red coats from, and quickly disperse back into the reeds.

¿Who could have guessed that we'd be thinking about driving the new Hessians mercenaries, from the swamps into the sea?

unionguy,

There are states (unlike mine) which require registration in a political party when voting for the primaries. That whole system, in effect, produces a winnowing or compromising sieve which causes progressives -- even conservatives -- to subsequently vote for whoever the MSM/m.i.c./Bilderbergs/etc. choose to run in the general election. Their candidate of choice loses, and they're left voting for the most corporate in their party. I'm thinking the best bet may be to run progressives as independents until we get Range (the most logical, IMHO) or IRV (inferior, but better than the present system).

Moonraven,

I was born in the US and I've got several generations buried here. In one pioneer cemetery, near the Minnesota/Wisconsin border, there are both Native Americans and early immigrants buried. Some say that until native-born Americans, regardless of ethnicity or skin color, see themselves -- also -- as Native Americans, there is no hope for genuine respect/bioregional/environmental sentiments to gain traction. Although I've been to Europe, this land here in the midwest is really all I know. I'm 39 years old, and I'm more native American, in that sense, than anyone younger than me: because I've been here longer, and seen more of it.

Check out the Bhagavad Gita, and Thich Nhat Hanh's book "Anger". They are very different, but both are illuminating. Gita talks about placing duty and lack of attachment above all else. Thich Nhat Hanh is as close to a living saint, IMHO, as our age has produced. And I don't compliment people frequently!

I agree completely with Paul B (above). The terms left/right are, or at least can be, subjective terms, open to numerous interpretations. For the sake of discussion we need to have some agreement on meaning. I'll go with your's.

However, I really don't find moonraven's points to be helpful. Further, the idea that we try to "one-up" each other on who is most oppressed, etc., kills any real discussion. I actually thought that douglas a asked a solid question, one that is attempting to find answers as to how to effectively develop a fight to pass progressive legislation in our nation. I do NOT find it helpful to make jokes or attempt to ridicule him for his point.

I really DO understand anger, believe me! I lived on it, and adrenalin, for over two years after Bush replaced the head of the PBGC (pension bd) and stole the pensions and health care of Republic steelworkers. We had 5 suicides at my local (1104 in Lorain, Ohio). I lost the majority of my pension after working 30 yrs, and health care. I saw families destroyed, people beaten down, then was asked by the USW to travel to locals to develop a political fightback. The most impotant thing that I took from that experience was, first, that worker's anger that was thrown at me everywhere, wasn't really at me, it was just plain goddamned anger! We had to take that and develop the fight that aimed it at our real enemies. Which led to #2, that anger is NOT a legitimate political program. It can motivate, but ONLY if directed in a sober, thought out, collective manner.

If passing progressive legislation, and more to point of this discussion, defeating the ultra right, were easy, we'd have done it a long time ago. Further, it is important that we recognize the reality of the ground we stand on if we are to develop a strategy on how to fight back successfully. In the U.S. the electoral system is stacked, institutionalizing the two big corporate parties. It is exasperating, frustrating and difficult to work with. Not impossible, however. We must always underestand the differences amoung our opponents, in this case the ruling class and their two parties. We shouldn't rely on them, but to ignore the elections is to allow the ultra right/facsists to consolidate their power and make it impossible to move forward. The mass people's movement is pushing its own agenda, for natl health care, end the war, spend for people's needs, green jobs, etc. The point is to defeat our worst enemies and then we have a better (far from perfect, but better) situation to FIGHT FOR our demands.

I do actually agree with folks that want another, labor/people based political party. However, in our "winner take all" corporate based system it is difficult to develop this type of party without completely marginalizing ourselves. I think that the Working Families Party, started in NY, but now in a number of other states has a good approach. They work for 'fusion' which allows them to endorse progressive Dems, for example, while also running their own candidates for other positions. I feel the Greens, for another example, are not helpful, because they disrupt unity against the main enemy. That's my take, at least.

unionguy: What does "left" mean to you? Why not use the term "populist revival"?

The issues at hand are unchecked centralization of power, general dynamics of authoritarianism, complete disregard for the environment, unchecked violent aggression (war), America's inability to safeguard and modernize its democracy, complete influence of powerful lobbyists, foreign and domestic, etc. Think of democracy as a city which needs to be defended. Our defenses are good against 18th century muskets. We've done nothing to strengthen democracy: eliminate electoral college, Range or IRV voting, no electronic machinery, ability of same-night recounting to avoid shames such as '00 and '04, etc.

None of this benefits one iota from the now dead analysis of left or right terminology, which now serves only to divide rather than unite. This is a sensible populist center.

I don't think there is any magic formula. Clearly this administration and their corporate allies have taken us some distance down that bad road toward facsism. Gerorgi Dimitrov, the great communist leader from Bulgaria, ideologically did much to lay the groundwork for the fight against facsism. He wrote "United Front Against Facsism" (International Publishers) and actually beat the nazis IN COURT in Bulgaria prior to the war. He discribed facsism as "the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary sector of the capitalist ruling class." He outlined the need to build the widest possible united front to defeat the ultra right, and that we need to fight every step in that direction. Discussing all that, I think we have real reason for optimism. It is not an easy proposition, especially due to extreme unreliablity of the Democratic Party. However, we need to attempt to mount real struggles (and that IS happeneing, even if they aren't always publicized), and build the widest possible unity.

The point, as well, is that the fight against facsism creates a dyanamic oof its own. By shifting the political landscape toward the left, it creates wide openings for new, progressive change. Nothing, however, is guaranteed. The openings are just that, openings. A people's movement MUST push thru them to realize the possibilities. I think most of the folks on here have every opportunity to see some great victories, IF WE ARE UNITED AND WE FIGHT!

We need control of both houses with a majority of more than one Lieberman, and we need a progressive like John Edwards or Dennis Kucinich at the helm of the executive branch. Then we will see change. Things are better since the elections of 2006. We have stopped the ride down the river rapids with control of the agenda in congress, kind of like sticking an oar in the muck stopping the boat, but we need the presidency before we can start paddling back upstream. Right now Bush can legislate by veto very effectively.

unionguy

Speaking of Ray's article comparing the rise of the Nazi Party to the rise of neoconrebulicanitis, where do you think the USA is in the timeline? I think that we can all agree that the Reichstag fire was the pearl harbor event of sept. 11, 2001. The Patriot Act and renewal has eliminated the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and any laws that the man in charge feels like violating. He has eliminated any accountability for companies that have assisted him in his data collection program. Foreign contractors can commit crimes against any law without fear of reprisal. Yes, people of interest are being picked up and whisked away to detention and torture centers.American citizens in New Orleans are not permitted to return to their homes, with no promise of alternative housing.

We are illegally occupying a sovereign nation whose people are our responsibility, but instead of helping the people we are busy looting the oil storages. All three branches of our government is being controlled by the same people. Our economy is being artificially manipulated to bring large profits to companies who control the product. One loose banana peel could bring down the housing mortgage loan business in which the economy collapses.

The last election was to return some control congress by Democrat winners, however, There has been no change of strategy. No confidence to undo the wreckage.

How many Democrats do we need to pass good legislation. How many to get rid of bad legislation. And finally what will it take to put the current leaders behind bars, here in America, or let the world court have a say in this one?

greenerthanthou,

Since it is our government perpetrating many of these crimes, and our government belongs to us, replace the term 'they' with the term 'We'. Next invite all of your friends over and explain the why they are all racist by not doing something about the situation. Warning: There will be a large whooshing sound. Don't be concerned it is your former friends running out of the house! You will meet new people who will understand.

Why wait till we are forced from our homes with few resources. A legal revolution would be one where lots and lots and lots of people march to DC, and shut the system down until they listen to our demands,
What are our demands?

Nah, Cheney's moving to Dubai.

When the economy collapses you will see a revolution. Over 90% of the citizens will be dead from starvation wihin 90 days. The military and Blackwter troops will have ample food. Ater the rioting ends, the 10% left will fight it out until a new leader emerges. That will be the one who has the most food and gold stashed. ___ Maybe Cheney.

Removing regressive Republicans and stacking the Democratic deck with new progressive faces is the only thing we can do now, there is not enough time left for anything else, and we already have many good ones there after the 2006 elections.

OK, that's funny. I consider calling someone a Marxist a compliment, not an insult.
When you talk about revolution, and excoriate people for not reading Marx, I assume that you're a Marxist. If you reject the compliment, OK.

Racism is used to divide people. I agree. So are religion and class differences. The capitalists will deliberately give AIDS to Africans in order to have access to their resources. I agree. I think it's horrendous. They will kill people with guns, instead of viruses, to get their resources. I agree. I think it's horrendous. How does that make me a racist?

I think that everyone on the planet deserves a decent life, no matter what color they are. I think that a decent life doesn't include an SUV and a McMansion. I would be willing to give up those things, except that I chose years ago to live simply, so that others might simply live. So I'm willing for the Americans who have those things to give them up. Very generous of me, I agree.

My husband and I have thought about moving to a country where people are farther along in their consciousness, in order to participate in their struggles for a better life. That's a big step, but it may come to that. But as Margaret Cho says, "I have chosen to stay here and fight". For now, that's what we're doing. But, like many people on this post, I don't have a lot of faith that if times get tough, Americans will choose to cooperate with each other to make a better life. It seems more likely that Americans will choose an overt police state, and further repression of those on the bottom. We already have more people in prison than any other country, and African Americans are definitely targeted more than whites.

Unionguy, there are things you say that I agree with, but when you start talking about voting for democrats, you lose me. Sure, at the grassroots level, democrats tend to be nicer, more inclusive people than republicans, who are usually hateful (and racist), but as you get to the top of the ruling class, they act the same.

Facism is basically a merger of government and corporations, according to Mussolini. You don't have to have concentration camps. And the majority of people who go along with the system will never encounter the repressive side. But any government in the world doesn't repress you for agreeing with it. That is not a big sign of freedom that you're not in jail as long as you're ineffective in your outreach.

Let's see what happens when the economy collapses.

I always thought Fidel Cstro was treated horribley by our government. He may have turned to Communism, but they were the only ones who offered any aid. He saved the people there from a far worse dictator and got rid of the Mafia control.

moonraven

your comment (now you will be labeled a Castro-loving commie pinko by the right wing circle jerkers on this site) is appreciated, as I have become accustomed to wearing labels similar to this throughout my life. Any person who is pro all people learn to live and embrace such observational reactions. Ray McGovern quotes Haffner at the beginning of the article about the "superior indifference " of the people watching the Nazi Party gain control. Also speaking of the sheep being led later in the article.

There are what I would consider many sheep on this site who have not the knowledge to determine a problem from a criminal exercise. It is difficult for superior people to admit to complicity regarding racial issues. What is more frightening is that these same people deciding on the legality of same sex marriage. If the white people admitted to racial and ethnic discrimination of groups A-Z, they would also have to be prepared to deal with restitution issues. How can you give back a village that is no longer of this Earth. These people will not come close to admission of anything. People with power don't just turn it over to different group and say "Your turn"

The only way to change power in the USA, is to take it. Maybe unionguy can get his army of people power to help out. For the rest, continue to take you sandwich board dow to the street corner.

"You know people I'm not black, but there's a whole lots of times that I wish I wasn't white." --Frank Zappa

Agreed: they own the media, keep racism shimmering, constantly reinforcing stereotypical and prejudicial (false) images of immigrants, US is worse than others (illusion of non-WHITEs = evil criminals, and they deserve to die - horribly), and WHITEs think (grandiose arrogant hubris) they deserve everything of value on the planet(s).

Agreed: few (almost nobody) "bothers to look at the obvious scenario that results from that: More impoverished NON-WHITE people with no access to natural resources and no way to feed themselves and their families trying to immigrate to the WHITE world."

I even agree that multinationals sociopathic string pullers take extra-credit for inflicting egregious pain and prolonged suffering on non-WHITEs, as if that makes them any more comfortable in their ill-fitting skins. It is even sicker (to us WHITEs) that while basking in racist superiority killing off non-WHITEs, they also torture and kill WHITEs (maybe because they remind them of having being human once?)

And I'm not just saying that to be agreeable, or to stop the raining on my parade. The wounds on this planet pain me, including all peoples' ills, regardless of critter coloration.

But I go further and acknowledge that these snickering scurvy sordid rapacious spiders (of multinational infestation) are most likely WHITE, and their mindset is (and has been long) programmed into their sick reflectionless identities, through intolerant and racist dualism of WHITE = RIGHT, and all else is WRONG (blame limited Descartes and Bacon philosophies, excising spirit from mind and man).

Even if those thousands of the ruling elite were to be vaporized NOW, their shoes would soon be filled by a new bunch of idiotic racists, and we'd start this all over again -- unless we can better learn how to love each other un-conditionally -- and thereby begin the long delayed healing.

¿What makes your rage any stronger against these unaccountable world killers, than anyone else that is soon to die on this planet?

¿And what purpose does any of our collective rage have in uniting us seamlessly into a world community that really works (to attempt to avoid devastation)?

I've been reading here for over an hour (whew!) and have not seen one mention of Naomi Wolf's work:
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/130839-Fascist+America,+in+10+easy+steps

Still not convinced we're already IN a fascist state: http://www.hermes-press.com/germany1930.htm

Perhaps much of my skepticism comes from: http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts12272007.html

Then there's H.R. 1955: http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/86xx/doc8633/hr1955.pdf

Don't forget to look up Bill Clinton's membership in the CFR and Bilderberg group, or that Hillary accepts donations from AIPAC and defense contractors. How about looking up the Federal Reserve sham: http://www.afn.org/~govern/pa10005.html

I know I'm leaving some other important links out, but I'm sure you have enough to read here.

green--- I do appreciate your comments. I think the discussion, if it is to amount to something worthwhile, needs to discuss how to defeat the drive of the ultra-right toward facsism. The point I was attempting to make wasw that we need to learn from history and use every single clash to attempt to change the balance of forces in the direction of progress, away from reaction. Elections are only one avenue of struggle, but in our nation, where folks are not involved in politics in their daily lives, it is the time of, by far, the greatest involvement of the masses of folks. It isn't about "voting for the Dems," but that there will be a president and new congress elected. While our movement is fighting for natl. health care, labor rights, to end the war, political and social rights, etc., we cannot, if we are serious about bringing about change, stand aside fromit, not attempting to use it to set up a better situation.

Look, we can shout that the Dems are assholes all we want, and it changes nothing. They are, in fact, a corporate political party that represents a section (at this point in history, a somewhat more'liberal' sector of that class) of the U.S. ruling class. Within that political party there is a progressive section. 90% of the folks on this blog use Dennis Kucinich as an example of a positive candidate. Dennis is a personal friend (I'm not "dropping names, I just moved from Lorain, near Cleveland, and worked in the progressive/labor movment for over 3 decades). Dennis, and Sherrod Brown, who was our congressman in Lorain, are both strongly opposed to the war, support the Employee Free Choice Act, support real natl. health care (HR 676), etc. Both are progressive elected Democrats. If folks like this can be strengthened, and supported by a strong people's movement, we can, finally pass the legislation we need.

Moon--- When you speak of needing an entirely new system, I couldn't agree more. However, those new systems are not born fresh, from whole cloth, out of the sky. Those new systems come from the real struggles of real people, in the here and now. The People's movement that I speak of isn't a myth, it is being developed in every one of the communities you all live in. The unions are having big training sessions for activists. Those who are not now union members are being signed up for a new form called Working America, which is a sort of union activist group. Millions are being signed up now. What it does is gives labor, under our backward/restricted electoral laws, the right to speak directly to them about political issues. All of us should look into signing up and being part of the mobilization to pass the legislation we need.

We all appear to want (clearly we need) universal health care, for example. How, concretely, can we win this fight? Clearly the GOP, corporate congress and Bush are not going to allow any sort of positive legislation be passed. If, however, they are defeated and a strong D congress/president is elected, we, then, HAVE THE POSSIBILITY of passing it. Not because of the Dems, but because they can be moved by the huge people's movement. It really isn't about the D's, R's, it is about using every opportunity to create possiblitities for us to win WHEN WE FIGHT! We will have a tough fight whoever is in office. But if we don't defeat the ultra-right, McGovern's article is prophecy, not warning! If we DO defeat the ultra-right, it creates only the possiblity of change. One that we then must fight, mobilize the masses of people, to realize.

I do think that we need to have real discussions about how we can do things, and do so with as much respect for each other as possible.

MOONRAVEN -- I'm curious of what you think about: ¿How racism works in the minds of the multinationals that pull most the strings everywhere on this globe?

¿Could it be that those fiends_in_Cthief would be more appropriate targets of your rage?

I really doubt that they have much consciousness of any basis for race, other than for sick 'gag gifts' for their multi-billionaire cronies.

I submit the same idea voiced several times above, that 'the race card' is simply a divisive disputatious domination and control technique - for some of the critters that feel 'more equal' than some of the other critters - while all along the snickering scurvy sordid rapacious spiders pull more miscellaneous manipulations upon us critters.

¿Isn't really just the filthy richiest vs. the critters now?

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately".

Ben Franklin, at the signing of the Declaration of Independence

Much of the discussion here is totally disconnected from the reality of Mr. McGovern's fine article. As one who has seen fascism, and its results, some of the outright whining on this discussion is, at least, extremely annoying.

No, we do NOT now have fascism! NO, the fight is NOT over already! Fascism is NOT predetermined! And, finally, YES, there ARE things we can do, and Bush/Cheney and their corporate fascist-leaning allies CAN be defeated! At this point we are winning the hearts and minds of the American people! However, that victory cannot take place by whining that "the fight is already over!"

Those posting such comments should really be ashamed! The was never over for those anti-facsists who gave the ultimate sacriface in the fight against Nazism. Those in Latin America who suffered under the Pinchiot regine, and other facsist regimes didn't give up. They fight and today Latin American is a shining example of new peolpe's power!

There certainly are many ominous steps that have been taken by this administration in a fascist direction. Corporate power certainly has been strengthened during this administration. This has included, amoung other things; destruction of the entire pension structure for American working families, nearly wiping out the right of workers to organize, attacks on voting rights, attacks on people's rights to assemble and our rights of free speech (including taking away real rights to demonstrate, consolidation of the corporate media and even the creeation of a mass base for fascism, American style) in the fundamentalist religious movement here. An atmosphere of fear has been fostered by the administration in order to build support for their moves and atop dissent. These are absolutely very dangerous trends, and they MUST be fought.

Fascism is a potential development of the capitatist system, but NOT a development refecting it's strength. It is, in fact, just the opposite. It represents a desperate attempt of a severely weakened ruling class to hold onto power, because it is unable to rule in the "old" way, with the illusions of democracy.

Hoowever, I beleive it is an extreme mistake to yell "fascism," and, expecially, then throw up your hands in defeat! It greatly harms our ability to discuss the lessons of the struggle against fascism with regular folks, and more importantly, help them become involved in the struggle to preserve and expand our democratic liberties. We absolutely still DO have those rights of free speech and assembly, right to organize, etc. We are not now being rounded up, tortured and denied the right to write right here on this blog, as well as in papers, etc. Our rights are under attack, but those rights were ALL the product of our people's struggles for justice, whether the struggle to end slavery, for women's voting and reproductive rights, workers right to organize, etc. The only way to defeat fascism is to fight, developing the widest possible unity, to defend every single one of our hard-won, precious rights and liberties, and fighting to expand them. To do so requires a sober analysis of the existing conditions here and what forces can be brought into the struggle for democracy, against the steps toward fascism.

I would submit, that this coming year we have reason for real optimism. We do have the very real possibility of defeating the ultra-right, and of laying the basis for winning huge new gains fo rour people. It is possible, but it won't be easy. It will require a massive mobilization of all democratic, peace-loving, decent people and a real fight to change direction.

There is, in our nation, a massive labor-led people's movement that is mobilizing hundreds of thousands, even millions, to defeat the ultra-right and fight for real democratic change. The people's movement has been developing its own agenda, not at all waiting on the Democratic Party to do so. The key issues are, but not limited to, the following;
passage of real natl health care, passage of the Employee Free Choice Act---which would again give workers the right to organize w/out corpoate interference, end the Iraq war/occcupation, fed monies for creation of 'Green' energy-based reseach and jobs, a new GI and people's education legislation opening up schools of higher learning, strengthening of public schools, fed housing, etc. This massive movement is now holding educational, mobilization sessions, signing up folks to help and bldg the fight. The defeat of the ultra right will not automatically pass these and other progressive steps, but it can create the conditions that make it possible for the people's movement to pass them.

That will require, in November, that the GOP be beaten, and beaten soundly. The Democratic Party, unfortunately, in the existing system we have now will be the vehicle that we will have to use at the polls to do this. However, it is the wide, labor-led people's movement that must be the driving force and can lay the basis for real change. For those that say; "I'll vote Green," I have to ask, "and, then what..." That would be possibly a good strategy in Italy, France or somewhere where the electoral system included proportional representation. However, here, our electoral system is very resticted, to a "winner take all" type of system, one that, at this time, institutionalizes the two big business parties. Here, saying "I'll vote Green," outside of some very limited local races, is the same as saying "I'll avoid the whole struggle and not vote." In order to build an effective figh, we must be based in the reality of the conditions we live under.

To say the two parties are both corporate, neither really representing the people would be absolutely correct. But the same, hardly! The GOP has become a party dominated by fascist minded corporate ideologues, pushing war, racism and the destruction of organized labor and all programs for poor and working folks. The Democratic Party, while also a party of the ruling class, represents a much different section of that class, and must depaend on working people, minorities, women and other progressive sectors to get elected. Further, there is a real progressive sector of thhat party that wants to push move further in a positive direction. All leading candidates, even with all their negatives, support the Employee Free Choice Act, some form of universal health care, are all taking positions against the war and would, if elected and pushed by a huge people's movement, give us the opportunity to block the anti-democratic steps by this administration. If left to themselves, little or nothing will happen. However, the wide people's movement must be what we use to reset the national agenda.

Most don't know that Lincoln was actually opposed by much of the abolitionist movement as "too conservative." However, the wide people's movement and the coming civil war pushed him to end slavery. FDR was opposed by much of the mass people's movement when he was elected. However, the huge people's movement pushed him to the left, and we won social security, union organization, jobs programs, the first civil rights steps, public ed and housing and the defeat of fascism. However, without the role of the vast, militant people's movement, we might very well have acheived little or nothing.

Get involved! Fight for our rights! We can and will win!

That post miss, is racism at its best. Can't you see it? ___ Damn.

The other day I was standing in a convenience store listening to country music playing on the PA system. The country singer was telling me to "don't concern yourself with reality" and "live today and don't think about the past."

I don't think anyone would deny that "racism" exists; it's just that you cannot reduce everything (or even all discrimination in terms of it). I mean come on, there's "ageism," feminism, reverse feminism, ad infinitum.

As long as superficial differences are given importance (again, due to divisive egotism which thrives off inferiority/superiority comparisons), there will always be some type of discrimination. Only by living in the wholeness of being (some might say 'eternal now') can one be authentically non-discriminatory.

What most often happens is when one reads an assertion like the one above, the conditioned brain goes nuclear arguing, agreeing, or modifying it to fit some acquired pattern or program, rather than going quiet just to see "what is." Is it possible to see a fact or falsehood for what it is without bringing in all the garbage from the past? Or is this even a right question? :)

I think we have to be very carefull when dealing with racism especially in the U.S. because of our ethnic diversity. I have read some unintended but racist comments here and I consider it ignorance. Racism will yield to understanding if it is not manipulated for other reasons (I think MoonRaven addressed this very well) We should work together to make racism not something to fear but something to watch out for when we see it in ourselves or in someone else. Mita kuye ayasin

Have fun Misanthorpe. But we know you for what you are, you in bed with JMACNEIL too.?
He's on the lead ariticle, doing what you do, trolling away. The others there have all pegged him too.

"Blessed Unrest" by Paul Hawken
www.lakotafreedom.com

wtf? would you assholes please stop spamming this essay with your absolutely innane arguments that are completely off-subject and entirely ego-oriented... some "regulars" on this site clearly need to get a fkn life...a liberal-life i would suppose...hahah...but something besides spamming this site. fuktards. anyway, i agree with ray's point: no matter how hard peeps have worked to expose the madness of the ever-unfolding neocon agenda, we are too often betrayed by the spinelessness of our elected reps. of course we all remember the charge of the "light brigade", led by senator byrd, which so easily broke the neocon's populist-bullying ranks and sent those morons to the bunkered position they operated from thereafter. thus, even a small charge, from a noble few, can break the ranks of cowards. now if we can only find a few dems in the senate (besides the ordinary few) who will stand for sanity to lead the charge...it hasn't all gone to heil yet.

Damn. Anyhoo,

MBinSC, someone just turned me onto http://www.prisonplanet.com,
http://www.infowars.com and Alex Jones' radio program streaming
from http://www.gcnlive.com and I tip my hat to this
man because he is absolutely fearless with the content he
brings to the table. I encourage other CD peeps to check
him and his sites out.

Yes, and it IS fun to point out as often as necessary what a loudmouthed dumbass you are!

If you care to check DOUGLAS AMES, she has gotten into it here on this thread alone with about nine seperate bloggers, using sentences like, "another typical right wing 'gringo' assumption".

I primarily come here to learn, and I have learned a lot in the past year here at Common Dreams. There have been many detractors here lately, such a Misanthorpe, who came on with a defence of Moonraven. She did warn us that detractors would eventually take over the site and I tend to agree with that opinion. I also don't believe we should ignore their attacks, for if we do, we deserve it. Pretty soon we are taking sides and before long there can be hard feelings with many. It divides is, when we need to stick together as Rebel Farmer has noted.

There are many new readers at CD daily, and when they see such silly bickering and fighting it could drive them away from here, which is a shame, for this is an excellent learning site, and that's why I post here and join in with discussions. Besides, it's supposed to also be fun whenever possible.

TerrorStorm and Martial Law 9/11 are both excellent videos. I recommend them to everyone. Alex Jones has been on the cutting edge for a long time now.

Just watch these to videos, please. I implore you. The esteemed
Mr. McGovern is in the second one. Both docs are by Alex Jones.

TerrorStorm
Martial Law 9/11: Rise of the Police State

http://video.google.com/

And your problem is DOUGLAS AMES? Or are you her protector? Just read her posts and it's obvious. Now do you wish to start some crap and detract from the article also. You another troll? Lots of them here at CD lately.

Kem Patrick
look in the mirror, and confront the mirrorman on the otherside

Just for the record for any who may give a darn. I doubt many, if any do. I deny those charges Moonraven has posted about me. I jokingly had posted we could attack Mexico as long as we were going to start unjust wars. Something silly like that. She went totally berserk and would not accept an apology for her perception of my lack of respect for other races of people.

I'm not stallking her, I just happen to post as frequentlly as she does and I do feel sorry for her, as to me it appears she needs help, based upon her posts here. Her coments are nonsense and one coud say she was 'stalking' me because we show up on the same threads. I don't believe that however. This nonsense certainly does detract from the purpose of the articles and I don't believe any of them were race related, nor is it all about race as she claims. That's my last comment about her here.

Are you people Democrat party members, or perhaps Methodists?
I believe that race is an important issue that must be addressed, and is appropriate for the article that is under discussion. It is comforting to know that white people have been killing each other in the past, for reasons of religion, land or otherwise. But to discuss the current situations that have been developing around the world and at home is prime. I am referring to the Ghetto cleansing in New Orleans. I am referring to the Palestinian children whose heads are being targeted by snipers. A million or so Iraqis dead, and a couple more million in refugee camps. The starvation of millions around the globe, and yes the continuing policy of genocide against indigenous Americans. It is so nice that we can discuss these issues at our leisure, what day is this anyway? We are becoming quite generous to the Iraqi family members, A couple thousand dollars for dead grandma maybe six thousand for the three year old child We are currently undertaking an insane policy to turn our fields of food into fuels so that we can drive to the bank to drop off our check from the government. When the food and the fuel are gone, it will make the days after Katrina look like Mardi Gras in comparison.
Also at times like these I like to read th words of the famous Cuban poet Marti. Cultivo Un Rosa blanca.

Well come to think of it, the fact that Ray McGovern might have sat on some 9/11 truth panel doesn't necessarily mean he was there for any other reason than damage control.

You need help.

Nspire asks:

"How we BEcome and BE the change?"

Not before we see or perceive what needs to be changed. That perception must be present moment, and that perception itself is the action, because even inaction (or refraining from action) can at times be revolutionary!

Deep down we are all the same, regardless of race or creed, separation is an illusion, but one that is often rigidly adhered to. Some mystics call it (have called it) duality, which essentially arises from ignorance.

Nspire, one must be careful not to personalize what is written in these forums or accuse anyone of anything individually because that usually amounts to projection. In general, though, I think it is a very meaningful question to ask why we put so much stock (if we do) in political leaders and saviors to solve pressing social problems. All such problems are problems of RELATIONSHIP, are they not?

Thus, we must begin with our most intimate relationships. What we are witnessing in the world today is disharmony in a majority of individual relationships, and if we remember that individuals comprise the collective, this begins to make sense. Vernon Howard, a teacher I much admire once said: "Change yourself, not the world" (because in changing yourself you will change the world!).

Peace :)

But how do we know what race the other posters are, Moonraven? I have no idea what race anyone else on Common Dreams is.

And it isn't always about race. The US sat back let Germans and Russians fight to the deaths of millions without opening a second front in Europe until June 1944, after the Russians had defeated Germany at great cost of lives. Those are white folks we're talking about.

And the US supported brown Afghan Muslims to the tune of billions of dollars in the 1980s against the white Russians.

And the US bombed the people of Yugoslavia with depleted uranium in the 1990s. White people poisoned just like the people of Iraq.

White people blew each other up in Ireland and England.

Actually, the entire history of Europe is pretty much white people slaughtering each other.

It isn't all about race. A Marxist should know that. It's about power and money. The capitalist class will kill anyone who interferes with their profits.

The only one I have seen here write racially derogatory commments is you MOONRAVEN.
You called some here on other threads Gringos, in a derogitary and hateful manner. Then you stated Gringo was just a 'generic' term used in Mexico and South America to signify white people. ___ Is that so?

Yeah, well Dago, Wop, Kike, Jap, Chink, Guinea-wop, Pollock, Spik, Honkey, Redskin, Rag head, Slope head, Slant eyed, Kraut and the N word may be generic terms to you also. They are all demeaning, racial terms, as is Gringo, especially when used as you have done here in the past three days.

You often wrote such interesting and educational comments for many months and you are obviously well educated and articulate. What has happened to you lately?

You have not been personally attacked your posts have been critiqued.

And race is a social construct; manipulated by the button pushers to keep us separate or thinking we are so.

Moon, there is no revolution in your words.
As for your actions, well, if there anything like your words then they're just argument.
These arguments aren't revolution, they're reactionary.

If you were interested in revolution than your words would manifest it.

Seems like you prefer to think in stereotypes, people posting here are individuals but you would lump everyone together for your self-serving grandstanding.

Oh and could you tone down the racism, please.

Probably the same person, or one on the same team COCO.

E-mail or website petitions are as worthless as used toilet paper. Therefore, what good do they serve, except for someone, or some faction to gather names and addresses. What do the do with their lists of names? I'd prefer to not be on their list.

KEM PATRICK

you haven't been paying attention regarding the 'petition'. this was first posted here by 'roundabout'. remember him/her? then richard posner took it over a few weeks ago and when i asked if he used to be roundabout he disappeared and now it's coldwarbaby with it. weird.

Moonraven,
You have said nothing new, creative, or even very interesting.
But it is self –righteous and self- serving.
So congratulations on successfully giving up.
I'm sure the shining example you set will surely be followed by those who seek easy answers to complicated realities.
Have a margarita for those of us snug bugs who are so unenlightened.

Moonraven wrote:Have any of you folks been to Latin America? the Middle East? India? China? Indonesia? Russia? even to the EU?
Well, yes-I lived in South America for a year, Saudi Arabia three years and traveled the rest plus Central America and Africa a couple of times but travel in itself does not grant one understanding of the Country you live in or visit much less have any special insight to international politics.
I agree with most of what you say but find your aggressive "know it all" attitude offensive and rude.
I live in Mexico also and like you I do not live in a gated community. I have been an expat for many years in many places and have a different prospective on the U.S. than most on this thread however I am not so arrogant as to think I have all knowledge and can see into the future. Countries can be turned around for the better without revolution. Ecuador and Venezuela are the two that come to mind and it can happen in the U.S.

CHESSGAMES56 -- You generalize (6:53 am) that "You all here are discussing reform from the periphery inward … ", and yesterday you enigmatically state (4:24 pm) "the solution to effective change may be as close as a mirror"

What you suggest (INWARD=>OUTWARD) is shared by many posters herein, who are transformative thinkers, and distinctly are not satisfied with mere reforming of the 'rows of deck chairs on the Titanic', as the current societal context is as doomed as the unsinkable wasn't.

The widespread denial and suppressed pain is how we've been gamed by nefarious and devious PYSOPS conditioning, which will provide little sustenance nor structure as the pervasive encroachments fuel greater and deeper pain and fear, and the chains of dominance slip off.

The context of SPIRIT (what is more INWARD?) and metamorphic change is pervasive in CD, where many are solidly understanding that re-arranging of the contents (e.g. deck chairs) is only superficial camouflage of a rank illusion, when the context (Titanic is sinking) is no longer sustainable.

How we BEcome and BE the change?

I encourage you to view comments from the following CONTEXT paradigm SHAKERS (here I go throwing abstract contents - names & postings - that hardly can reflect but a glimmer of the real truth of the human BE'ings behind the text, nor ALL who are our torch bearers):
DOOM & GLOOM (27th 11:52 pm), REBAL FARMER, BUFFALO KEN, ST. JOHN, and myself NSPIRE

Many herein are close to understanding the under-structure of the problems, while un-felt and real pain may be dulling their otherwise powerful perceptions toward needed changes in INTENTION and ATTENTION solutions.

It is through education and empowerment that more will become prepared for a spiritual transformation, of which your posts are part of the solution.

Thank you.

As one candle's luminosity

is an onslaught onto the Darkness

You and others may find the following useful preparations for the coming storm (replace the • with a "."):

_ _ _ _ _ R _ E _ F _ E _ R _ E _ N _ C _ E _ S _ _ _ _ _

L O V E _ like _ T R U S T:
commondreams•org/archive/2007/12/07/5683/?jal_edit_comments#comment-153915

HISHERstory ABHORRENT DEMONIZATION OF WOMAN ≠ humankind's survival:
commondreams•org/archive/2007/12/07/5683/?jal_edit_comments#comment-152660
commondreams•org/archive/2007/12/21/5933/?jal_edit_comments#comment-162540
commondreams•org/archive/2007/12/21/5933/?jal_edit_comments#comment-162575

CONTEXT OF MIND AS SLAVE:
commondreams•org/archive/2007/12/07/5683/?jal_edit_comments#comment-154215
"The human understanding, when it has once adopted an opinion…draws all things else to support and agree with it. And though there be a greater number and weight of instances to be found on the other side, yet these it either neglects or despises…in order that by this great and pernicious predetermination the authority of its former conclusions may remain inviolate." Francis Bacon, Novum Organum (1620)

LOVE CURES FEAR:
commondreams•org/archive/2007/11/29/5499/?jal_edit_comments#comment-147765

CONTEXT SHIFTING THROUGH BE-DO-HAVE:
commondreams•org/archive/2007/11/18/5303/?jal_edit_comments#comment-139487

BUILDING A CONSENSUS CONTEXT:
commondreams•org/archive/2007/11/21/5376/?jal_edit_comments#comment-142102

COMPASSION AND PRINCIPLES:
commondreams•org/archive/2007/12/26/5995/?jal_edit_comments#comment-165020

WHAT IS RESPONSIBILITY:
commondreams•org/archive/2007/12/26/5995/?jal_edit_comments#comment-164940
commondreams•org/archive/2007/12/26/5995/?jal_edit_comments#comment-164946
commondreams•org/archive/2007/12/22/5961/?jal_edit_comments#comment-163768

WE MUST LEARN TO GO BEYOND:
commondreams•org/archive/2007/12/26/6005/?jal_edit_comments#comment-165030
commondreams•org/archive/2007/12/21/5949/?jal_edit_comments#comment-162658

WE ARE ALL STANDING IN THE WAY OF OUR OWN LIGHT:
commondreams•org/archive/2007/12/26/6005/?jal_edit_comments#comment-165272

TORTURE MUST BE KNOWN (PSYOPS = COGNITIVE DISSONANCE):
commondreams•org/archive/2007/12/21/5956/?jal_edit_comments#comment-162507

POSSIBLY PSYOPS SOLUTIONS:
commondreams•org/archive/2007/12/21/5956/?jal_edit_comments#comment-162851

We are all as those gregarious penguins in the Antarctic,
huddling together protecting each other’s backs
from the fierce cutting winds,
warmly sharing the cold’s fury, and
each taking our turn on the front line of merciless assault,
before returning to the fold of our brethren and kindred

Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »

The ruling class of America, at least, didn't just appease Hitler, they supported him. The book is called "Trading With the Enemy" by Charles Higham

And thanks. I now remember seeing Ray McGovern sitting on a 9/11 truth panel on FSTV

"Fear and Degradation" -- works well around this geographic area

Sorry I didn't proofread my comment.
I meant to say Hitler wasn't appeased, he was supported.
It is commonly believed in this country that the ruling classes of America and England appeased Hitler.
This is used, as we all know, multiple times to justify unproked attacks on other countries. We all need to confront this belief with the truth.

Wow, Gadfly...that quote from Chris Floyd in The Moscow Times is unbelievable! Or, unfortunately, it is WAY TOO BELIEVABLE.....

Thanks--I'll be sharing that with everyone I know.

Hi, guys. Many interesting coments.
Ray McGovern has come out for 9-11 truth. He has been on panels shown on FSTV.
Many American corporations supported Hitler and facism. Americans who fought the facists in Spain were called "premature anti-fascists and vilified.
Hitler was "appeased", he was supported until he went too far for the American and British industrialists. But some, such as Bush grandfathers, Prescott and George Herbert Walker, continued to support Hitler until stopped by the Congress. Don't think they changed their minds because of that.
The "ratline" set up by the Vatican and the Americans siphoned many facists to this hemisphere and the US sheep dipped other facists and put them back into power in Germany.
America fought the communists in Italy, Greece, France and other countries after WW11, although the most effective anti-facist resistance was the communists, as showed by the quote misquoted by Rebel Farmer, showing the power of the anti-communists in this country. It starts, "First they came for the communists" but Americans, including Gore (who I just heard misquote it last week), always say "First they came for the Jews", because we have been conditioned to think that Hitler only targeted the Jews.
He didn't. He targeted Communists (which is why he was supported by the industrialists), Socialists, trade unionists, Gypsies, homosexuals, mentally ill and retarded people, and any other "useless eaters" (Shades of anti-welfare Americans today)
I am sorry that Seraphicmom and Moonraven quarreled. I like them both, and Rebel Farmer and I do think that we should stick together.
Facism is here, but does it have to stay? It ain't over until it's over. Other countries have thrown off dictatorships, and so can we.

i am glad to read a few hopeful posters..with some fight left in them.there is too much negative hopelessness,expressed here at cd.moonraven and misanthrope,it is you,who are the lemmings rushing headlong into the abyss,and you are trying to convince others to leap off the wall with you....you seem to hate yourselves and the whole human race that you belong to,you seem quite willing to throw the towel of the human race at the feet of the executioner....you make his job-too easy.(how will the angels defend mankind before god and accuse the 'evil ones' of being the authors of death,chaos and destruction ?)... (people such as you,make this a rough job,for the angels)....i am not your enemy..i am trying to fortify hope and tell you that there can be a tomorrow,if you try.do not consign the human race to the fire,get up and fight for your right to life.it does not matter if you believe in angels and devils..or not...take it as a metaphor..but push back against the darkness or it will push us over the wall.

Saila--I had some questions about Robert Gordon University. Could you write me at:

tlmac75@yahoo.com

so I could ask you.

Thanks

you need to go smokem peace pipe moonraven

ArbeitMachtFrei - Couldn't it be argued though that the formula only works as long as "the mob" is uneducated? If "the mob" decides to throw off the shackles of fear, then I'd say the formula changes for the better.

Plus, this is why I agree with others here who encourage getting to know your neighbors who live in close physical proximity. My neighbors might think I'm a bit of a kook, but I have made an effort to be part of the neighborhood, and I suspect they know they could count on me to help out if there is a neighborhood need. Time will tell.

The 2 key ingredients are FEAR and DEGRADATION.

FEAR: Silence is support for the Government. Silence is also BELIEF, if only to the extent that one believes that "that's just the way things are."

DEGRADATION: Keep the masses in a state of degradation imbued with a feeling of individual inferiority and powerlessness. Then, create a POWER IMAGE of the leader, political party, corporate logo, etc. The masses will then want to associate with the POWER IMAGE. Their freedom becomes the instrument of their enslavement.

If someone questions the POWER IMAGE, then the mob will violently crush the heretic.

The formula is so simple that it's terrifying.

2 B or not 2 B. I choose B.

claudius, you, Rebel, and Kem will be pleased with 2008 because this will be the year that the underlying economics will come to the forefront of motivation to confront the Empire.

Historically, empires only fall in one of two ways:

1. Massive war from the outside -- or --

2. Massive economic pain internally

As Bill Murray might say of the economic pain that we will experience in 2008, "so at least we got that going for us."

Unless the global corporatist Empire hiding behind this facade of 'Vichy America' manages to start WW III, which despite Bush's crazy taunts is looking less likely, 2008 will be the year of the economic collapse of this Ponzi Palace.

Although massive economic pain would normally seem like a poor choice as a New Year's wish, at least it is the one way that an empire can come to its just rewards in the nuclear age and still leave the resulting world 'recoverable'.

I hope that most sentient beings would answer this SAT question with 'B'.

"Please choose the best way to end a global empire:

A. Through a deck-clearing nuclear war?
B. Through an economic depression that motivates people to remove the empire and re-establish a real democracy?"

Moonraven is right. Also, someone says, "it is as if evil just moved its headquarters over to america,after the fall of nazi germany…"

Actually it was before the actual end of the war. The fascist sympathizer John Foster Dulles brought over some "friends" from the Wansee division of the SS as advisors to the state department as they were consummate anti-communists (and we must remember that fascism in Germany was based on anti-communism). That influential SS cadre helped set up their friends in South America and elsewhere. Much of our "cold war" policy has been influenced and even guided by these SS and SS inspired people. The anti-communist (and labor . . .) propaganda that has permeated our media since the 50's has been very successful in the Nazification of the American mindset.

You all here are discussing reform from the periphery inward, and do not realize that without understanding the INWARD, psychological dynamics--not just as an idea, but as a perception--we and the world are doomed to continue and repeat this destructive dance. The mystics both old and new have told man he is inwardly asleep and "knows not what he does." That is why transforming yourself is the ONLY thing that will transform the world. When we simply work from an ideal, one side is "good," and the other side "bad," ever notice that? Consider that both sides are contributing to the same darkness by opposition within ignorance.

Peace and equality can NEVER be imposed from the outside; that's akin to painting spots on a lion and not expecting it to attack! So I say work to awaken yourself, remembering that a tiny flame can turn into a blaze. Here an old rock song comes to mind by the Who: "Won't Get Fooled Again." Studying history alone will not prevent it from repeating itself [albeit in some slightly modified form] unless or until we understand the inward dynamics behind it.

Poet December 27th, 2007 10:31 pm,

Bravo, the most eloquently phrased statement of facts.

dumb, Why didn't I think about that!?

Geez, the level of anxiety here is giving me a headache, I read every post.

I think we have the means to deal with change if we keep our humanity. Vote your conscience and be prepared to live with your decision. I think we should have learned from the last seven years that we do not want another republican in the white house and if a democrate is elected it probably won't be based on merit.

That is the way it is, like it or not. We are in trouble as a country and only good actions will make it better. The revolution was a right-wing revolution and it is about to collapse from it's own weight.

Ray is not telling us the whole story.

COLDWARBABY. I have a couple of questions before I sign your website or E-mail petition.

I suppose I will have to use my true name and possibly an address for ANY petition to be valid. ___ Who all gets that information?

Wouldn't that compromise those who use a code name here?

That's what my wife said when she served the bean burritos Nspire.

Sorry, I left off the author's name in my previous post. The quotation is by Chris Floyd of the Moscow Times, and it was written six years ago!

Prescient!

… and this too shall pass …

Too bad Moonraven went to her hammock. I was really starting to enjoy that cat fight. Reeeyyyyowww!!!

I am always surprised how easily the American public is manipulated with:

Desire (for other's goods)
Fear (of 'terrorists' e.g.)
Duty (Patriotism etc.)

These are the three well known temptations of the Buddah!
How easily we fall for them time after time.

DOOM N GLOOM -- I'm quite thankful that your appellation (D n G) is a humorous twist to our context of embracing the Spirit as source of ALL, and I am certainly empowered by your words.

I 'know' that declaration (as done in 1776) and sourcing of an unprecedented future is an act of courageous creation, that goes much deeper than just a re-awakened America.

We ALL need to share in this VISION, and as you say "Even if one cannot embrace Spirit, it is important to remain positive, hopeful, and thankful. It is also important to avoid hate. Hate strengthens evil."

We will prevail by trusting Spirit and the good within us. And to those who believe that a cleansing is upon us, you are correct, it is.

We must work through the storm, all of us.

May we all be blessed with the abundance to accomplish the crafting of our children's future - where our belief, hope and faith - are far stronger in temper and endurance than mere physicality and acts.

douglas ames, I do appreciate your realism and I understand what you are saying. My thoughts come from a different place, a place of Spirit. It is Spirit that creates physical reality. The ways outside of Spirit have lead to a dead end. Now is the time to try to understand the power of Spirit and to embrace it. Those persons that I am speaking of have already done so. Even if one cannot embrace Spirit, it is important to remain positive, hopeful, and thankful. It is also important to avoid hate. Hate strengthens evil. We will prevail by trusting Spirit and the good within us. And to those who believe that a cleansing is upon us, you are correct, it is. We must work through the storm, all of us.

Martial law may be declared, but it cannot possibly be enforced. These scoundrels walk a fine line between what they need, want, and what is possible. Many of our economic elite would protest -- it would hurt commerce, consumerism, etc. But more to the point, it would be totally unenforceable and cause a backlash they couldn't possibly contain.

Yes claudius, I have been saying just that since the stolen elections and the appointment of the president by the supreme court back in 2000. Now it seems that reality is beginning to overcome media spin, and the American sheeple are finally waking up to the pain, and their opinions are starting to approach something like a critical mass.

This is a great discussion, but I think I need to go to bed now. All I can add right now is:

Paul: I think it may be too late for reason and justice to come to power in time to turn this mess around. If impeachment doesn't happen NOW, and I mean in January, there is no other avenue to "dethrown" the king and his jesters. Getting Cheney locked up is critical. I am Supporting Wexler's efforts to bring impeachment hearings. I think many on the judiciary committee are really trying to make this happen. But of course, Nancy is standing in the way. And I don't think that anybody has to lay waste to DC. When the financial shit hits the fan (I'm guessing that the unraveling will begin in earnest around March) everybody is going to go into survival mode. The people will disengage from the government and the corporations. The will develop local support systems. I haven't a clue as to what the pols in DC will do. I suspect that marshal law will be declared.

miftin: I don't know why you believe that Ray is part of the establishment. Even Chomsky doesn't want to focus on 9/11 right now. Our whole democracy is in melt down right now. I'd really like to have a REAL investigation of 9/11, but there are other things on the front burner right now for me.

polsci: I share your sentiments. I gave up my fear of the inevitable collapse when I realized I couldn't stop it. Not that I won't keep trying. I'm still out here beating my pots and pans VERY loudly. But I am also resigned. And getting prepared in the best way I can. I can't say that I'm looking forward to "the spark for the first revolution", but I can see that some good can come from it when it comes. We, as a people, will once again pull together and rise from the ashes. Hopefully we will remember how we got here so that we never make the mistake again.

claudius: What's coming is going to be a lot more than "diffecult and inconvenient". We are going to see what Americans are really made of. These will be "times to try men's souls". But we're in it together, and as long as we stay together, and help each other, we'll make it through to the other side.

Peace

I have been saying it for quite some time on posts here on CD, and Rebel and Kem reinforce it. The only time people in this country will rise up in protest is when the pain hits them in the pocketbook. No more flat screen television for watching Sunday Night Football. No more four bedroom house with a swimming pool and a three car garage. No more morning stops at Starbuck's coffee on the way to work. Life will have to become financially difficult and inconvenient.

Sinclair Lewis: How Fascism Will Come To America (1935)

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

- Sinclair Lewis, It Can't Happen Here.

Doom n Gloom, thanks for the articulation.

Rebel Farmer, I agree and maybe more: with a deep and wide enough "economic collapse" we could/would be witness to the spark for the first revolution on Earth in a capitalist industrial economy.

now even for an atheist, that sounds worth praying for

I think Ray McGovern's main purpose is to keep the establishment-left discussion on course, and away from 9/11 truth. Of course, he's not the only establishment-left figure doing that, but with his experience he just might be writing the script for others to follow.

Rebel,

I have met many different walks of life in North America, and I believe you are correct. I'm most interested in seeing how this whole thing will eventually be resolved. Will voices of reason/ethics/vision get a chance to come to power and avert the otherwise inevitable? If things continue, our society must (not optional) eventually collapse. The question is whether it is a foreign power, or whether Americans themselves, that eventually lay waste to D.C.

From all the recent comments, I feel that I must point out that de_nile is more than a river in Africa. For those of us who endured the sixties and seventies realize that some battles can be won, but the revolution was lost amid large groups of people migrating toward individual causes with the belief that it was where they could do the most good. The Big picture was lost due to focusing on smaller incremental advancement of progressive change. The situation today is much more dire and dangerous due to a lack of organized resistence. It's a warm fuzzy thing to 'project' that we are on an endless path, stopping to adjust our course of direction occasionally, but the cold hard facts are that we are all at the bottom of a dark and dirty well with only our instincts and resourcefullness to attempt to resurface. Character and Committment are our tools, and a whole lot of bravery is needed to fuel them. Wake up, Wake up. The dreams is over for now, time to deal with the nightmare at hand.

Paul: The average American will tolerate almost anything as long as it is happening to "the other". The other being anyone who is not in their sphere - racial, cultural, economic, etc. I can't remember the whole poem, but it starts with "When they came for the Jews, I was not a Jew, so I said nothing" and ends with "When they came for me, there was no one else to speak for me" or something like that.

It is my belief that most Americans will not raise up in sufficient numbers until they personally feel the pain of what has happened to our country. And I also believe that that pain will be delivered with an economic collapse. To me it seems that this is the event that will force people to unite with community to survive the upheaval. I believe that the American people are basically good. I also believe that many have become brain dead in our consumer culture with an overlay of mind numbing propaganda.

I hope Doom & Gloom is right. I just have a feeling that the better days ahead are going to be preceeded by some pretty tough times.

There are many good people who have lived their lives with wisdom and honor. They have not been cast aside by events. They have maintained their purpose and they have carried the mail for the many who wrongly have chosen the path of weakness and self indulgence. They come in all races, colors, nationalities, faiths, genders, and socio-economic classes. They carry the seeds of the future with them. They are awakened and active and will not allow American Fascism or other extreme isms to become firmly established and to stand. They are the moral backbone of this Nation and are not fools or people to be toyed with. Their actions will be smart and unconventional. They will act when they can do the most good. They are decentralized and will act individually and in concert with others. They are the heart and soul of what is good about America and they are steady in their actions. You will increasingly feel their presence and they will not fail because they place your best interests above their own. They know how to confront evil and to put fear in it. Evil is backtracking now and you will see it's false strength for what it is, weakness.
Stay positive, hopeful, and thankful. Better days are ahead.

In a morbidly curious way, I wish I could gaze into a crystal ball on America and see just how "oppressible" we are. The government opens up the detention camps. The government revokes the First Amendment. The Second. The government has already done away with #4 in the digital age (freedom from warrantless searching).

But just how much would Americans tolerate until they began to recognize Gore Vidal's "enemy within", and took effective action?

"We have had discussions with Congress…as to whether or not FISA could be amended to allow us to adequately deal with this kind of threat, and we were advised that that would be difficult, if not impossible."

Complete bullkaka, Gonzales. FISA did not NEED to be amended in the first place. FISA was well-designed to handle the terrorist scenario. Even if it needed improving that was easy to do.

What we have with the eavesdropping is very clearly a class war assault by the elites against the people. They are exploiting the people's fear to take away the people's freedoms and concentrate power in the hands of elites.

Good Germans, have a "SAFE" and Happy New Year of telephone, internet, postal mail, banking, and travel surveillance.

For the present Rebel, that's the only thing going in the near future that shows promise.

I watched C-span a few days ago, the Judiciary Committee. They are zeroing in with determination on Cheney and Bush. I don't remeber the Congressman's name. A Billy someone? He is grinding the axe and it wasn't for show. He's pissed, there were three Congressmen and they were asking very tough questons about torture, the missing tapes and they were not accepting any bullshit from the trio of Costitutional lawyers they were questioning. And the lawyers didn't press it, they spit out the truth and Bush looked very bad,___ of course he would look bad.

When Mr. Jose Gonzales testifies, and if he tells it all, watch the fur start to fly. I fully understand skepticism from any and all after what we have seen this past year. I do have my hopes up after watching that unrehearsed program. Valorie Plame and Joe Wilson have some powerful friends in the loop and friends who know where the bones are buried. I think dem bones are gonna get dug up and the full skeleton will be put together for the entire world to witness.

If it falls flat, you can tell me, "I told you so."

As has been said before: the Democrats are controlled by cowards, the Republicans are controlled by fascists, and both are thieving corporate capitalist parties. The machine is broken and we are heading for a cliff. Drastic, courageous change is required if we are to survive. Otherwise, we are assisting global genocide. It's our own choice, we cannot blame anyone else, and the rest of the world is waiting to help us. But...to once again paraphrase the Last Poets: "Liberals are scared of revolution."

For real, Doom, woould you elaborate on those big ships please?

Getting lectured by a former high-ranking CIA official on fascism is a little like listening to the pot calling the kettle black.

Ray, if you want to get indignant over government-business alliances why don't you tell us how the company (insider slang for the CIA--interesting irony there!) midwifed the overthrow of democraticaly elected governments in Iran, Guatamala, Chile, El Salvador, Nicauragua, the Congo, Angola, Vietnam, Laos, Yugoslavia, and a whole host of other places.

Tell us how in every case those democratically elected heads of government were executed, imprisoned, or run out of their country and were replaced by oligarchial business elites more to the liking of the IMF, World Bank, and their government toady the State Department.

Your CIA hands are just as dirty with the blood of innocent slain martyrs as the Nazi's or KGB ever hoped to be Ray and your bitching about the Bush adminstration is just so much internicene political turf warfare. A plague on both of your houses.