Great news! This is a good kick in Uribe's groin. That means another nail in Uncle Sam's coffin in South and Central America. Uncle Sam and the West: Can you please solve your own frickin' problems before shoving fingers up others' asses to 'solve' theirs? Uncle Sam promotes 'democracy' (right!) but never hesitates to undermine Chavez who has won democratic contests in Venezuela many times. You may or may not like Chavez' championing the poor but he is far more a legitimate ruler than the cheat Bush.

Chavez comes through yet again! The closest thing we have to Mr. Chavez is Dennis Kucinich and we all know why the corporate-owned media doesn't want him to become the Chavez of the American "Revolution"!

Chavez is learning. He still needs some restraint. He really could be a force to reckon with then. Viva Chavez

Hasta la victoria siempre! Viva Hugo Chavez!

Atta girl, moonraven. [Presumptive] whites criticizing a latino. Those worthless gringos MUST be racists!

moonraven:

OK. I won't make that mistake again.

Umm, are YOU one? (An exception, that is?) Or are you as racist as I understand you to say everyone else on this earth is? And, if so, what makes you any more right than the gringos criticizing Chavez? If both of you are equally racist, then aren't both of you equally likely to be prejudiced, your judgement equally suspect, and you conclusions equally likely to be wrong?

I know this was a long time ago moonrave, but just to point out. If 'gringo' is truly not a racial term and applies to persons of the United States; then you are a 'gringa' as you yourself come from the US. Correct?

This is one gringo that doesn't think Chavez gives a FARC about the release of the hostages, it is about his power struggle with the Columbians.

"Yep, it is ALWAYS about race.

There are NO exceptions to the rule."

Oy vey.

Et tu, Moonraven?

Nice to see a Green Party Presidential candidate and her adviser being freed by FARC.

FARC has quite a number of redneck like sub-commanders and they make real stupid redneck like moves against progressive groups like the Green Party and organizations of indigenous people. It must be their stead fast embrace of the old fashion macho 20th century ideas about violent communist revolutions! Plus they have the Bush like political credo of that "you're with us all the way or totally against us!"

Anyone have a relatively unbiased source on Chavez/Venezuela? I'm of the opinion that an opponent of Bush is NOT automatically an ally of human rights, freedom, democracy, etc.

I've never jumped into the fray on discussions re: Chavez because I (frankly) don't know what to make of him.

Chavez' actions and speeches are a matter of simple record. That should be information aplenty for knowing "what to make of him".
Moonraven, good to hear your words; it is good to put los gringos (and anybody else saturated with a paternalistic attitude) in their place when needed, but my goodness, it is so hard since their knowledge of American history is so...childish, making it very difficult to make a point.

"I've never jumped into the fray on discussions re: Chavez because I (frankly) don't know what to make of him."

Respectable point, Paul. He seems a little like a loose cannon for me to really cozy up to him, but of course, our button down "leaders" are far more crazed when you scratch the surface.

And, let's not forget the haze that we're looking through with our media coverage of him.

In short - he's a person like all the rest, subject to the same shortfalls and whimsies.

Hope for the best but keep your powder dry.

Moonraven seethes--

"What is this nonsense about "macho mouth" and "needs restraint"!?

I have had several very pleasant interactions with Chavez, who despite his military training, is a feminist.

Restraint? Regarding what?

More patronizing by gringos of a Latin American leader is what I see. Because he is not white, he must be machista in attitude and he must learn to know his place?!

I see very little difference between many of the folks who post here on a supposedly progressive site–and those who regularly spout CNN and Fox News nonsense on the right wing sites."

********************

Moonraven, I am coming to believe you find the same pleasure in having that big chip you are constantly wearing on your shoulder knocked off as a skydiver or bungee jumper gets from their indulgence.

By the way, forgiving does not mean forgetting--it means not getting consumed by your own grief or hatred no matter how justified. In other words, forgiving is something you do for you and not for the one being forgiven. You have a lot of useful and thoughtful things to say--most of your posting in this thread is not among them.

I remain always happy to indulge your addiction to your own adreneline rush and self-rightious indignation, but advise you against getting too addicted to same--

Poet

We should avoid the term gringo like we avoid the terms nigger, kike, etc.

Keep in mind that "whites" enslaved whites for a thousand years, kept them penned up as serfs, and they fled to the Americas to escape an unsustainable economic/political system in Europe, indentured servitude, etc. A small subset of crazy Europeans enslaved their own indigenous, polytheistic and seld-determined peoples starting around 700-1100 CE or so.

Now is the time for oppressed people of all color/creed to band together. Anyone advocating wedges is either racist, a shill, or hasn't thought about it carefully enough.

CD isn't letting me edit my post. I want to add that indigenous Europeans, polytheistic, self-determined and indigenous people were themselves enslaved starting from 700-1100 CE or so. It's not possible to paint all Europeans with a single stroke, any more than we can paint all Native Americans with a single stroke.

Now is the time to band together. Seize the opportunity.

at "moonraven"-

so wait, it doesn't matter WHICH group of "white folks" did the killing?

It doen't matter that most of the "90-100 million" killed died of uncontrolled and uncontrollable spreading of communicable disease?

That the only conscious explotations of the Native's lack of antibodies that are reliably documented or probable, occured centuries into the situation?

That many Tribes and Nations actively participated in the destruction of their traditional Native enemies, on behalf of, and with the aid of, rival "white" Nations?

That many of those who refrained from this kind of active self-desctruction, still participated indirectly by failing to unify against the "white man", as leaders such as Tecumseh, and later others advised?

Apparently not, apparently the FULL responsibility lay with the "white folks" AND their descendants, AND any other European ethnic or national group (or in your racist term: "whites") who happened to come to N.America AFTER all of this awfulness.

Yes them too, AND THEIR descendents, But why stop there? Why not include ALL Europeans ("whites")?

Even those who have never had a family member even VISIT N.America, should be blamed! After all, their ancestors were oppressed freedomless peasant subjects living under the Tyrannical Monarchies that profited from crimes against the indigenous populations of the Americas, of course, it's THEIR FAULT TOO!

Bad things, awful actions, GENOCIDAL wars were conducted by many kinds of Europeans, with many different motivations, in what European Scholars chauvanistically referred to as "The New World".

Yes, this is True. Of course,- ALL -decent, informed people, of whatever cultural background, acknowledge the Truth of this, or should do so.

There is much in History - in ALL of History "Old World" or "New" - to be Atoned for, just as there is much to be Forgiven, and just as there is much to be Learned from.

But while Anger is understandable in the face of such things, it ceases to be Righteous when it lashes out at those who are not to Blame. Whether because they are easier Targets, or because the Anger has become Blind Rage, it has lost its Righteousness and becomes Itself something to be Atoned, Forgiven, and Learned from.

So, in conclusion, I sincerely Hope 2 things:

1) That you "moonraven" will develop some of the Wisdom, and some of the Clever Intelligence of your Namesakes. To balance out your already well developed Passion and sense of Vengence you've taken from them.

2) That this kind of "Collective Blame" attitude is as rare in the Mohawk Nation -whom I have much admired for their Bold Actions, in recent times - as my interactions with several Nation Members, who have come to gatherings near to me, would seem to indicate.

on Chavez:

In (edit:NOT SO) short, IMHO, this kind of successful "South to South" and "State to non-State" diplomacy, along with such things as the "Bank of the South" -that someone else pointed out- are EXACTLY why the Oligarchies in the U.S. and in "the South" so Fear and Loathe "Commandante" Chavez. It would be one thing if he was "merely" a popular "socialistic" leader with indigeneous blood, democratically elected, then he would be Evo Morales (who ain't too shabby himself).

But Chavez and the Bolivarian Revolution have the reasonable potential to unite S.America and form solidarity through out the "South" and the "developing(read resource producing not consuming)world", thus leading to a "global realignment" of power, not only away from N.American and European Nation-States but, and perhaps more importantly, from the Corporate Golems these Nation-States have spawned.

An example of this on another front would be Iran's attempt to push "realignment" of power away from the Security Council and toward the General Assembly in the U.N.. Make no mistake, however awful Iran's current rulers are THIS is the major threat of Iran, Not Nukes!

As some had posted before this thread was quasi-jacked, Chavez seems to be at his most effective -supernationally- when he is ACTing more than he is SPEAKing (to crowds at least).

It would be ideal, of course, for the Bolivarian Revolution to move steadily away from focus on the Person of Chavez, and toward a broader focus on the Power of the People, while still benefiting from Chavez's sizable personal Charisma.

But I think, and this is just a guess, that we needn't worry overmuch on this point. Chavez has recently demonstrated, once again, his ability to not only accept, but accept with grace and optimism, defeat that comes at the hands of Time and Circumstance.

I think we have been trained to some extant by biased History and propagandistic "Journalism" to automatically Fear Popular and Charismatic foriegn leaders.

I think it would be better to see Chavez more in the light of F.D.R., or at least an F.D.R. who GENUINELY desires a TRUE "New Deal" for the People -as opposed to merely feeling it neccessary to stave off "Socialism".

Then the fact that only Oligarchs, and their "rightist" pets reasonably need fear him, while the remainder of The People need not, seems not odd but common-sensical.

Oh, and I believe that Ol'Franklin said something relevant on the subject of Fear, didn't he?

long-windedly(fingeredly) yours,

-matti

Paul B.: There is a publication/newspaper in english that I have stumbled on a couple of times. Something like venezuela.com or something. Just Google Chevez for the past week or so and you will probably find it. Also, the UK and Europe put out some good material. Nothing in the US mass media can be trusted.

Here is my take on Chavez from what little I know: Chavez has the support of the people and has been overwhelmly been elected to office many times. And the elections have been monitored and fair. Chavez is a true populist who will do whatever it takes to help his country and his people. And he realizes that to help his own country he must help all countries in South America throw off American imperialism and corporate control. And his country has the oil wealth to make that happen. And that is why the US is very unhappy with him. It's all about the oil. And Chavez nationalized the oil wealth of his own country so that his own people, and not the oil companies, could benefit from their own natioal resources. Further, he is going to bail from the IMF and World Bank. And he is helping all of South America do the same. Yes, he is loud and outspoken and sometimes rash. But maybe all the attempts by the US to overthrow him or asassinate him has something to do with it.

All in all, I'd trade Chavez for Bush in a heartbeat if he were an American. He may need more experience, but at least he reads and learns and listens. That's more than I can say about our evil shrub.

Viva Chavez!!!

"I see very little difference between many of the folks who post here on a supposedly progressive site–and those who regularly spout CNN and Fox News nonsense on the right wing sites.

In fact, it appears to me that Commondreams is rapidly being taken over by the right."

Moonraven, everybody else,

OK. While I do think that we all need to stick together and all the Kuumbaya stuff (seriously, I do), I *also* think that some of y'all are falling into the trap of believing everything the MSM says about Chavez without doing your own research. The reason I believe this to be so is because your beliefs match what the MSM says, with little to back it up.

In terms of the site being taken over by the right - I see the entire so-called movement being taken over by right-wing thinking, inch by inch. What was considered to be liberal or progressive 20 years ago (progressive as in to the left of liberal, but to the right of radical) is now mildly conservative or centrist, respectively. US-centric, unquestioning, and frequently racist attitudes prevail. I know this may offend some of you - but please, take the time to reflect on yourselves before you judge.

Lastly, as for Chavez: that's simple. Chavez is a true socialist, and a very people-minded, horizontalist, working class and working poor friendly socialist at that. As someone whose politics lean strongly towards anarchism, I would like to think that if socialism a la Chavez was reflected in soviet-style socialism a la 1917-39, perhaps we would not be having these absurd discussions, and lamenting the loss of our civil liberties. I also think that the US government has pretty much surpassed any country in known history in terms of human rights abuses, war and mass slaughter, and anybody who is not actively working to put an end to all that really should stay out of the business of condemning the leaders of other countries until such time as they do so. But perhaps that is a discussion for another time.

Viva Chavez! Viva AMLO! Viva APPO! Viva Libertas!

Rebel Farmer, thanks for that synopsis. Freak, Chavez better watch for the cross-hairs of Coerced Interrogations & Assasinations.

Regarding Bhutto, ya know, Sadat was a long time ago, people we don't want to die, usually don't-no matter how much folks give it the old college try (musharaff).
Poor Benazir sure went down easy huh?

ya know it gets to wearin thin
set up and knocked down like a bowlin' pin

BB was dead the second Condi called her in October and suckered her back in-country.

"The whole concept of "racism" is nothing more than a weapon of divisiveness latched onto by the would-be masters of the world."

Exactly right - that's why pretending it doesn't happen ain't gonna change things. Of course we all need to be united - duh! :D But how do you honestly think we gonna get there when people act out racist attitudes? Please, people. This is basic.

American 'poodle' Uribe finally having the guts to do what is right? He better not antagonize his 'master' or he'll really be on a 'short leash'. Bravo for social conscience. Bravo for standing up for what is right. If Americans weren't so damn afraid of anything that contains the word 'socialism', the US populace could also improve its lot by following some of the Latin America examples. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with looking after your own.

Chavez seems to be a valiant, genuine, and determined person whose savvy leadership is setting an example for others to follow. He must have incredible capability and physical constitution to withstand the many pressures placed upon him (I can only imagine). His leadership offers hope to me that the "People's Interest and basic needs" will eventually take precedence.

In my opinion, this can't happen soon enough, but obviously some few vested interests may try to block the way. The thing is as more and more individual folks recognize the value of cooperation and recognize that it lifts everyone, then it seems to me that resistance will be futile, but what do I know?

Perhaps it is too early to think too much about global cooperation while there are still so many rats in the ship. The rats need to be flushed out and sent overboard first.

Peace,
Ken

you need to smokem peace pipe Moonraven

"you need to smokem peace pipe Moonraven"

don't get me started about where i think you should put your war pipe

Moonraven,

Race/otherness might always be a factor, but it often isn't the PRIMARY factor on this site. If I couldn't stand Fujimori's authoritarian govt. in Peru and Alejandro Toledo's govt. because he was a privatizing World Bank hack, would you say I'm being a racist white boy because Toledo was an indigenous Peruvian and Fujimori was Japanese? Preposterous. I've seen "Alo Presidente" enough times to be able to say that Chavez is macho, full of himself, and certainly has authoritarian tendencies. That is not arguing for the opposition in Venezuela, that is just fact. Many of Chavez's programs would be way better off if they just had less Chavez.
I too, like the idea of having forces to combat the United States Global Hegemony, but those forces should be more democratic. Arguing against Chavez isn't arguing FOR white/American superiority. That's a ridiculous binary that no one on this site should have to adhere to.

desaparecido,

You wrote: "Many of Chavez's programs would be way better off if they just had less Chavez.
I too, like the idea of having forces to combat the United States Global Hegemony, but those forces should be more democratic."

You don't think Chavez is democratic? He is legitimately elected, in elections certified as fair by international observers, including Jimmy Carter. He just held a referendum seeking to change the constitution, when his proposed changes were narrowly rejected, he respected the result.

The canard that he was trying to make himself ruler for life, was exactly that. He was trying to get rid of term limits, - you know, so he could be elected more than twice - nothing more.

What are you talking about?

Moonraven,

You still have not responded to this post:
matti December 27th, 2007 11:06 pm

I'm curious if you have anything to offer but your holier-than-thou spews.

drift--firetender at Big Mountain Sundance.

Hoka hey!

Legolas,

Wow! You've got the whole fucking world, and everyone in it figured out, don't you? Guess I should just give up and go ahead and vote for Guliani, since he SO CLEARLY REPRESENTS MY WORLD VIEW... at least that way I can claim to be as honest ideologically as you so clearly are.

Oh yeah, and was the computer you're posting on assembled by the hard working indigenous peasants of... wherever, paid a fair wage, and most importantly of all, free of any dreaded ZIONIST influence or profit taking?

You may be coming at it from a left wing stance, but I smell the stench of anti-Semitism in your rants.

Moonraven,

I think Matti gave you plenty to respond to, and besides, that was from yesterday, so he may not be logged on right now.

So for the rest of us, try not to cop out.

Respond, or shut the fuck up. Or do you have a plane to catch on your world wide dilettante's revolutionary tour?

Cop out!

And in the end, the fakers and false profits are always found out.

Everybody sing along!

"I'm leavin' on a jet plane
Don't know when I'll be back again..."

Ha ha ha,

Psuedo-revolutionaries make me laugh out loud...

Moonraven,

I honestly don't know whether to say people are beneath you here, or what. Much arrogance from the closet right here overall...I agree with much of what you're saying here, and seem to most of the time, easily.

Thanks to the people who have actually taken the time to not buy the Faux News et. al. spin on Chavez, and actually do some thinking of your own.

As for Zionism: who needs conspiracies when the truth is every bit as bad? Ruling elites, then and now, run things. Oppose them, and you'll have difficulties, unless you can out-work, out-organize, out-maneuver them. Pointing to anti-semitism is both foolish and impertinent in the face of that.

Fred Fucking Flintstone??

"BLOODSUCKING, TALMUDIST CHILD MURDERERS."

That's straight outta Goebbells' playbook, Leggie. You know, he (Goebbells, that is) was a former left-wing socialist until he came under Hitler's spell. Extreme ideologues are famous for swinging violently from one extreme to another. Also, they call themselves "Neo-cons" because the original philosophers were all ex-New Dealers who swung to the far right. They out-conservative the conservatives.

It's the zeal typical of extremists. You strike me as an ideal candidate for a brown shirt, shitbag.

And oh, btw, lest it be forgotten in the thread, Moonraven still hasn't responded to Matti's excellent post of Dec 27, 11:06pm.

And for the record, I admire Chavez a great deal, though I remain wary of him, as we all should of any of our leaders, particularly when they make power grabs in our name. I am grateful the Venezuelan people humbled him recently. In my view, he needed it, but I hope this will make him a better leader.

When I buy a tank full, I get it from Citgo, and I don't mind paying a little extra for the priviledge.

I remain hopeful the populist progressive politics sweeping Latin America will eventually migrate north our way...

I suggest YOU read Shirer's "Rise And Fall of the Third Reich."

Fucking future fascist fuck, you.

Here's anice surprise---

www.lakotafreedom.com

spread the word.

Chavez gets it done! I have a lot of love for my brother Chavez!

Moonraven still has not responded. Because she has no good arguments to counter her provactive statements.

She is a dilletante, and a poseur.

And it would appear, a hypocrite as well.

Gosh, moonraven, I thought you promised you weren't going to respond to me anymore.

Couldn't resist, eh? The truth hurts, so I can't blame you.

Matti's post of Dec. 27th @ 11:06pm above STILL awaits your response.

Are ya chicken?

Legolas took his geopolitical ball and went home, moonie. He's not gonna play with us anymore. After all, we're all right wing Zionist baby killers here at CD.