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Both Sides Cite Science to Address Altered Corn
BRUSSELS - A proposal that Europe's top environment official made last month, to ban the planting of a genetically modified corn strain, sets up a bitter war within the European Union, where politicians have done their best to dance around the issue.The environmental commissioner, Stavros Dimas, said he had based his decision squarely on scientific studies suggesting that long-term uncertainties and risks remain in planting the so-called Bt corn. But when the full European Commission takes up the matter in the next couple of months, commissioners will have to decide what mix of science, politics and trade to apply. And they will face the ambiguous limits of science when it is applied to public policy.
For a decade, the European Union has maintained itself as the last big swath of land that is mostly free of genetically modified organisms, largely by sidestepping tough questions. It kept a moratorium on the planting of crops made from genetically altered seeds while making promises of further scientific studies.
But Europe has been under increasing pressure from the World Trade Organization and the United States, which contend that there is plenty of research to show such products do not harm the environment. Therefore, they insist, normal trade rules must apply.
Science does not provide a definitive answer to the question of safety, experts say, just as science could not determine beyond a doubt how computer clocks would fare at the turn of the millennium.
"Science is being utterly abused by all sides for nonscientific purposes," said Benedikt Haerlin, head of Save Our Seeds, an environmental group in Berlin and a former member of the European Parliament. "The illusion that science will answer this overburdens it completely." He added, "It would be helpful if all sides could be frank about their social, political and economic agendas."
Mr. Dimas, a lawyer and the minister from Greece, looked at the advice provided by the European Union's scientific advisory body - which found that the corn was "unlikely" to pose a risk - but he decided there were nevertheless too many doubts to permit the modified corn.
"Commissioner Dimas has the utmost faith in science," said Barbara Helfferich, spokeswoman for the environment department. "But there are times when diverging scientific views are on the table." She added that Mr. Dimas was acting as a "risk manager."
Within the European scientific community, there are passionate divisions about how to apply the growing body of research concerning genetically modified crops, and in particular Bt corn. That strain is based on the naturally occurring soil bacterium Bacillus thuringiensis and mimics its production of a toxin to kill pests. The vast majority of research into such crops is conducted by, or financed by, the companies that make seeds for genetically modified organisms.
"Where everything gets polarized is the interpretation of results and how they might translate into different scenarios for the future," said Angelika Hilbeck, an ecologist at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, whose skeptical scientific work on Bt corn was cited by Mr. Dimas. "Is the glass half-empty or half-full?" she asked.
Ms. Hilbeck says that company-financed studies do not devote adequate attention to broad ripple effects that modified plants might cause, like changes to bird species or the effect of all farmers planting a single biotechnology crop. She said producers of modified organisms, like Syngenta and Monsanto, have rejected repeated requests to release seeds to researchers like herself to conduct independent studies on their effect on the environment.
In his decision, Mr. Dimas cited a dozen scientific papers in finding potential hazards in the Bt corn to butterflies and other insects.
But the European Federation of Biotechnology, an industry group, contends that the great majority of these papers show that Bt corn does not pose any environmental risk.
Many plant researchers say that Mr. Dimas ignored scientific conclusions, including those of several researchers who advised the European Union that the new corn was safe.
"We are seeing 'advice-resistant' politicians pursuing their own agendas," said one researcher, who like others asked not to be identified because of his advisory role.
But Karen S. Oberhauser, a leading specialist on monarch butterflies at the University of Minnesota, said that debate and further study of Bt corn was appropriate, particularly for Europe.
"We don't really know for sure if it's having an effect" on ecosystems in the United States, she said, and it is hard to predict future problems. About 40 percent of corn in the United States is now the Bt variety, and it has been planted for about a decade.
"Whether Bt corn is a problem depends totally on the ecosystem - what plants are near the corn field and what insects feed on them," Ms. Oberhauser said. "So it's really, really important to have careful studies."
Bt crops produce a toxin that kills pests but is also toxic to related insects, notably monarch butterflies and a number of water insects. The butterflies do not feed on corn itself, but they might feed nearby, on plants like milkweed. Because corn pollen is carried in the wind, such plants can become coated with Bt pollen.
Ms. Oberhauser said she had been worried about the effect of Bt corn on monarch butterflies in the United States after her studies showed that populations of the insect dipped from 2002 to 2004. But they have rebounded in the last three years, and she has concluded that, in the American Corn Belt, Bt corn has probably not hurt monarch butterflies.
Still, she said there was disagreement about that as well as broader causes for worry. Monarch butterflies may have been saved in the United States, she said, by a fluke of local farming practices. Year by year, farmers alternate Bt corn with a genetically modified soy seed that requires the use of a weed killer. That weed killer, Monsanto's Roundup, eliminated milkweed - the monarch's favored meal - in and around corn fields, so the butterflies went elsewhere and were no longer exposed to Bt.
"It's a problem for milkweed, but it made the risk for monarchs very small," she said.
Still, she said, other effects could emerge with time and in farming regions with other practices. For example, Bt toxin slows the maturation of butterfly caterpillars, which leaves them exposed to predators for longer periods.
"Sure, time will give you answers on these questions - and maybe show you mistakes that you should have thought about earlier," she said.
For ecologists and entomologists, a major concern is that insects could quickly become resistant to the toxin built into the corn if all farmers in a region used that corn, just as microbes affecting humans become resistant to antibiotics that are prescribed often. The pests that are killed by modified corn are only a sporadic problem and could be treated by other means.
Scientists also worry about collateral damage because Bt toxin is in wind-borne pollen. Most pollens "are highly nutritious, as they are designed to attract," Ms. Hilbeck said, wondering how a toxic pollen would affect bees, for example.
Having reviewed the science, insurance companies have been unwilling to insure Bt planting because the risks to people and the environment are too uncertain, said Duncan Currie, an international lawyer in Christchurch, New Zealand, who studies the subject.
In the United States, where almost all crops are now genetically modified, the debate is largely closed.
"I'm not saying there are no more questions to pursue, but whether it's good or bad to plant Bt corn - I think we're beyond that," said Richard L. Hellmich, a plant scientist with the Agriculture Department who is based at Iowa State University. He noted that hundreds of studies had been done and that Bt corn could help "feed the world."
But the scientific equation may look different in Europe, with its increasing green consciousness and strong agricultural traditions.
"Science doesn't say on its own what to do," said Catherine Geslain-Lanéelle, executive director of the European Food Safety Authority. She noted that while her agency had advised Mr. Dimas that Bt corn was "unlikely" to cause harm, it was still working to improve its assessment of the long-term risk to the environment.
Part of the reason that science is central to the current debate is that European law and World Trade Organization rules make it much easier for a country or a region to exclude genetically modified seeds if new scientific evidence indicates a risk. Lacking that kind of justification, a move to bar the plants would be regarded as an unfair barrier to trade, leaving the European Union open to penalties.
But the science probably will not be clear-cut enough to let the European ministers avoid that risk.
Simon Butler at the University of Reading in Britain is using computer models to predict the long-term effect of altered crops on birds and other species. But should the ministers reject Bt and other genetically modified corn?
"My work is not to judge whether G.M. is right or wrong," he said. "It's just to get the data out there."
© 2007 The New York Times



61 Comments so far
Show AllThanks, Mr. Obvious. I look forward to hearing again from Mr. Barnes, who will now acknowledge that the work he cited actually demonstrated the absence of significant impacts from Bt corn.
Get off the pot and scroll up.
Mark Abrams, I would agree that there is no evidence that modification on the genetic level is in itself harmful. There is no evidence to date that the process itself necessarily causes harm, though such evidence may conceivably arise at some point in the future. It is fair that you clarify yourself, but I had no intent on obscuring what you wrote.
I am glad, however, that you asked the question "[Does Bt corn] Produce any runoff into streams?" reread the brief and you will see that the answer is technically yes, it is possible.
Is Bt a "green" technology? Sure, in as much as the word "green" has no meaning outside of marketing, yes. But properly farmed corn (i.e. not lazy, idiotic monocultures of the stuff) can be grown organically (and is) with minimal losses to pest insects and minimal energy input (i.e. petroleum).
You say, "The broader point is that there is no evidence, again, none whatsoever, that ALL genetic modification is in some way harmful or dangerous..." What doesn't ever go away, no matter how you try to defend yourself, is the Precautionary Principle. What was said Bt corn? That is was tested and safe and ready to go. Now we know that it can damage some aquatic environments. Using a precautionary approach, responsible science would dictate that this information be discovered before the product was released. And in the case of a toxin-releasing plant, it is not a huge stretch to imagine that there might be complications with it.
Lack of biodiversity. Lack of propagate-able seeds for the future. Being able to replant seeds without inteference from some companies bill collector. If they were free and Monsanto gave them away free it might be a different story, but, Monsanto is the sole holder with a monetary gameplan. What does BT do to bees? Any one know?
Nothing can change as long as science is worshiped as a religion and every answer to a problem is supposed to be fixed by science.
It doesnt take science to tell us that messing around with genetics is stupid.
Humans arent gods--they are in a sense retarded animals by birth-and certainly arent smart enough to be able to manage Nature...I cant believe I had to write that..it should be so obvioushumans are too stupid to manage nature. they cant even manage imprisoned tigers.
GMO Crops are creating herbicides in our intestines!
Is that not a good enough reason not to allow GMO crops?
http://www.seedsofdeception.com/utility/showArticle/?ObjectID=502&find=Spilling%20the%20Beans&happ=siteAdministrator
Read the book "The Omnivore's Dilemma". You'll never look at corn the same way again!
The effect on pollinators, including bees, will likely be devastating...affecting organic farmers who rely on various pollinators for their crops. The negative effects on the environment, economies and on the health of humans and livestock have yet to be fully realized. Bt corn is toxic to beneficials as well as pests and to have unleashed this monstrosity on the environment is beyond insane. The entire worlds food supply is at stake and it's sickening that these monopolized agribiz giants are placing profit and market share above all else.
Before Mark Abrams comes repeating his tired line about there being "no evidence, none whatsoever that 'genetic modification'... is in any way harmful" I offer the following abstract of recent study out Indiana University published in Proceedings of the National Academies of Sciences shows that GE corn has the potential to harm aquatic ecosystems (increased mortality and reduced growth in
caddisflies). Here's the abstract:
"Corn (Zea mays L.) that has been genetically engineered to produce the Cry1Ab protein (Bt corn) is resistant to lepidopteran pests. Bt corn is widely planted in the midwestern United States, often adjacent to headwater streams. We show that corn byproducts, such as pollen and detritus, enter headwater streams and are subject to storage, consumption, and transport to downstream water bodies. Laboratory feeding trials showed that consumption of Bt corn byproducts reduced growth and increased mortality of nontarget stream insects. Stream insects are important prey for aquatic and riparian predators, and widespread planting of Bt crops has unexpected ecosystem-scale consequences.
Well blow me down, and people wonder why the bee's are dying, Frankenseed wonderfull lets ruin even the insects and all seeds from non GM crops then we can really control who plants and gets our seeds more $$$ for big business Oh well I guess with all them GM thingo's in our system be no fleas nits ticks or mozzies get to us...
Genetic engineering of food crops, as with many other "hi-tech" schemes such as nuclear energy, and low-tech schemes such as fossil fuels and industrial agriculture generally, serves the shadow agenda to maintain capitalist control over the people. The capitalist seeks to create a dependency among farmers to the capitalist's "proprietary" seed, thereby using the seed as a lever of control to keep the people "in their place".
Proprietary genetic engineering is basically redundant. Farmers can select crop varieties for natural resistance to insect damage and save the seeds, to increase their individual and local independence. This is a big issue - it's worldwide, and it applies across all agricultural sectors from food to biofuels to materials.
Education is needed to reinforce the centuries old agriculture traditions, and deter the assault of ignorance from capitalist central planning. Fortunately the capitalists are losing the battle - they are losing on several fronts simultaneously today - this is why they have circled their wagons in Washington.
Maybe if we could put a dollar value on biodiversity, as we should for clean air, water and land and factor in the costs of their loss and cleanup, the money oriented would begin to care.
JUNGLEBOY
'what does bt do to bees? anyone know?'
errrr, no, not really. and do you think anyone gives a shit? already the bees are dying off/disappearing in usa and europe. and no-one really knows why. however, the fact remains they are dying. the whole planet is dying. and you want to know why? because of this kind of experiment. that is why. experiments that pose great threats to humans, but imposed upon humans by the 'elite'. the 'elite' that have no more morals than an alley cat. (not that i have anything against the alley cat you understand)
'elite' used only in the terms of 'power'.
KELMER
not only tigers, but now it's a pack of pit bull terriers..........
It is the politican's job to sell the public this technology and as everyone can see they are not protecting the environment or people from harm. The "substantial equivalent" ruling means they do not have to look for harm. Science, well this is the dark side of science and there are much darker agendas as well. Science only serves science and the only opinions they are interested in are "peer reviews". In other words they only have to meet thier own standards. Not farmers, not consumers, not biodiversity (and they are building a better bee as we speak)
Someone named Douglas Barnes selectively quotes me above:
> "Before Mark Abrams comes repeating his tired line about there being "no evidence, none whatsoever that 'genetic modification'… is in any way harmful"
The part missing in the ellipsis (...) is two words: IN ITSELF. Why did Mr. Barnes see fit to omit these two critical words? Space restrictions, Mr. Barnes? Or were you intentionally distorting my meaning?
You see, the critical point is that everyone targets "genetically modified" crops as if there were some evidence that genetic modification BY ITSELF causes some kind of harm or poses some kind of risk of harm, whereas there is absolutely no scientific evidence or credible reason to think so.
The difference is like somebody arguing that metalworking should be banned because it sometimes is used to make guns. Nobody says you can't work metal and make a gun. But to say that "metalworking causes violence" would be absurd (well, I guess some people might even say that).
Nobody (certainly not me) ever claimed it was IMPOSSIBLE to cause some harm by the use of genetic modification, particularly if you intend to. What matters is the TYPE of modification.
For example, as shown by the article above and the paper cited by Mr. Barnes, there is considerable debate about whether Bt toxin in Bt corn has any significant environmental impacts. One might have thought that engineering corn to produce a protein that is toxic to beetles and flies, including butterflies, and planting that corn on a large scale (40% of US corn production) might have some effects.
However, Bt toxin is, again, a protein, is not harmful to humans, plants or animals other than certain insects, and is biodegradable. Numerous studies have shown that Bt does not build up in soil and has had little impact on non-target insects; in particular, it has not harmed the Monarch butterfly, despite all the hysteria. As the NYT article reports, the broad consensus of scientists at this point is that Bt corn does not harm the environment.
This does not mean that Bt corn has necessarily no impact at all. But if the impacts are so small, as they apparently are, we should then ask what are the impacts of spraying corn with conventional insecticides. Does that kill any butterflies? Produce any runoff into streams? How do we compare a biodegradable, highly specific protein toxin with persistent, broadly toxic petrochemicals?
By any rational measure, it appears that Bt corn is a Green technology, in that its use lowers environmental burdens and petroleum use as compared with previous methods.
But the broader point is not about Bt corn, Bt toxin and whether there might be some harm caused by SOME genetic modifications. There are also harms caused by chemical pesticides, natural toxins in foods that we eat, and by agriculture itself. These should all be assessed and weighed in relation to their actual significance.
The broader point is that there is no evidence, again, none whatsoever, that ALL genetic modification is in some way harmful or dangerous, that the mere fact that a plant is modified by biotechnology methods makes it unwholesome to eat or causes harm to the environment, or poses some special risk that it will be harmful. This is not even a matter of debate. There simply is no scientific basis whatsoever for holding such a view.
What the NYT article fails to report are the nonscientific motives for the EU's exclusion of American genetically engineered crops. It is plain old-fashioned protectionism of Europe's own highly subsidized farmers. The EU resorts to ostensible safety concerns in order to resist the pressure from WTO to open its markets.
This has terrible secondary effects on African farmers who are forced to forgo the benefits of GM crops in order to avoid "contamination" which would exclude the products of their own country's agribusinesses from the European market. But that's fine as long as you hide behind a Green eyeshade, I guess.
Mark, you know what? I'm not even going to respond to your one sided nonsense. What I don't get is how you can justify a bunch of GM scientists playing god. It took Mother Nature thousands of years to create the diversity and balance that is required for a sustainable planet. What on earth makes you believe that humans are so damn smart that they can maintain that balance by messing around with the DNA of DIFFERENT species and splicing in all kinds of junk that could never be reproduced in nature? When you skrew up biodiversity by contamination by genes that humans have "wired" to be dominant, how are you going to restore that diversity once it is gone?
This is all about corporate greed and control of the food supply. This is not about feeding the hungery masses.
I know that cows, if given the option, will not eat GMO corn or fodder. I think I am going to go with the cow's instincts on this one. I think the cow's know something I don't know. I trust their judgement.
Several years ago at the federal hearings on the Organic Standards in Austin Texas a University of Texas Professor of Genetics testified that we now know that most genes are involved in the production of more than one chemical. Thus selecting a gene for one chemical produces unknown other chemicals. There have been small scale tests of experiments of genetically engineered foods such as one with rats feed genetically modified potatoes that showed an increase in cancerous tumors. But Universities and scientific publications are now under the control of monopolistic fascist minded big corporations. From genetically engineered foods to global warming to corporate sponsored wars its seems that a majority of the billionaires are a fascist force for evil in the world. They are leading humanity on the greedy and hateful path to extinction. Greed heads without any inner spirituality lack the intuitive understanding of the interdependence of all life. Too many materialistic scientists and religious leaders have sold out to these rich fools.
DearStavros Dimas,
Thank you very much for a note of reason against tecnology gone crazy! America thinks that anything that is not altered in the natural world is a problem that must be fixed. It all must go the way of climate change, there is tecnology that has done its work well.
Remember Percy Schmeiser? Corporate bully Monsanto sued him because they claimed that he had stolen their GM seeds. He claimed that his plants had been contaminated by GM crops in nearby fields. Schmeiser lost the first rounds, but eventually won. The last I heard he was in Australia trying to get Australian farmers to reject GM crops.
I hope the EU has the sense to reject Bt corn. The precautionary principle should be applied with vigor.
Before somebody writes to criticize me for not addressing the citation provided by Mr. Douglas Barnes:
I googled it, and the reference is PNAS 104, 16204, Oct. 9, 2007; E. J. Rosi-Marshall, et al., "Toxins in transgenic crop byproducts may affect headwater stream ecosystems". Note the word "may". Nowhere in the paper do the authors report any finding that any toxins in any transgenic crop byproducts actually DO affect any headwater stream ecosystems in any way whatsoever, let alone cause any significant harm. However, they do find evidence that Bt corn "may affect" headwater stream ecosystems in some way.
Basically, they "quantified inputs of corn byproducts to headwater agricultural streams, measured transport distances of these materials within streams, and examined the effects of these materials on stream-dwelling aquatic insects." As to the last point, actually, they did not examine the effects of the materials on insects actually dwelling in streams, but rather, they fed Bt corn byproducts to bugs in the lab and found, unsurprisingly, that some bugs got sick, though interestingly, not when the bugs were exposed at the levels the authors estimated to exist in the streams but only at levels several times higher.
The authors conclude that "Bt corn byproducts may have negative effects on the biota of streams in agricultural areas. Based on these findings, we suggest that the assessment of potential nontarget effects from transgenic crops should be expanded to include relevant aquatic organisms, such as stream insects."
So there you have it, a finding that suggests Bt corn might be having some as-yet unnoticed impact on bug populations in streams nearby the corn fields. Not a finding of any actual impact, but a suggestion that it should be looked into.
Indeed, I have no doubt it will be looked into. And if any actual impact is found, we will surely see headlines about "dead streams" and the terrible effect that "GMO" corn is having on bugs in the water and birds and fish that eat them. This will be taken as a general indictment of genetic engineering itself, and yet one more proof that Man should not tinker with Nature's genetic order.
Well, wait a minute. Let's say there is some effect from the Bt toxin. If so, we could stop planting the corn, and we know that the Bt will be gone in a season or two, because it is biodegradable. So there will be no long-term damage.
But before we go back to using non-Bt corn and spraying it with petrochemical insecticides, shouldn't we also study the impacts those chemicals have on insects in nearby streams and on the environment generally? Shouldn't we compare that impact with the effects of the Bt corn - which the data in this paper suggests is small if it exists at all?
How about the impacts of planting corn in the first place? Clearing the land, grading and plowing it, diverting the streams - didn't that alter the environment quite a bit? Didn't that destroy habitat wholesale? Which is the larger impact, Bt corn, pesticides, or agriculture itself? Or is this question irrelevant for some reason?
And let's say that, finally, we might decide that Bt corn is not such a good idea. Yeah, Bt toxin is biodegradable, nontoxic to humans (nutritious, in fact), and requires no petroleum nor creates petrochemical pollution. But we might, theoretically, find that it has some undesirable impacts (although we have not yet seen any evidence of this, only suggestions that they might possibly exist).
Would this imply anything about the basic technology of genetic engineering itself? Would it mean that engineered DNA is dangerous and unwholesome? Or would it just mean that Bt toxin is not quite as harmless as it (in actual fact, based on all available evidence, including the present citation) seems to be?
Reviewing the literature on Bt corn, the authors note that "Previous research demonstrated that the effects on nontarget terrestrial organisms depended on exposure concentration and that terrestrial insects, specifically lepidopteran larvae, typically do not consume enough Bt corn pollen in the field to be negatively affected (4)." Translation: the Monarch butterflies are doing just fine, thank you.
Furthermore, "Research on the effects of B. thuringiensis var. israelensis (Bti), applied directly into aquatic habitats for mosquito and blackfly control, found conflicting results (14), with some studies demonstrating negative effects on nontarget aquatic insects (15, 16) and some studies showing no deleterious effects of Bt toxins on nontarget aquatic taxa (17)." Translation: previous research looking for negative effects of Bt toxin on bugs in the water has shown that such effects are minor and may not exist at all.
Oh, but of course it's still "frankenfood" and an offense to Nature!
Maybe it's time to interject some reading options here. I'd be happy to get the ball rolling with a link to the Union of Concerned Scientists website. It's doubtful that anyone here would either completely disagree or completely agree with their stance on engineered organisms (at least I hope that's the case!) but the articles and their sources (primary and secondary) make for an interesting read.
http://www.ucsusa.org/
Nature knows Best and that's where I put my trust.
The Union of Concerned Scientists is generally a very good organization, but unfortunately it committed itself fairly early in the biotech debate to a basically anti-genetic engineering stance, which has greatly undermined the UCS own credibility among scientists.
I happen to know something about why the UCS position has been what it has been. Basically, they hired two staffers who staked out an anti-biotech stance, and they continue to retain them despite many protests from scientists in their membership. It turns out that foundation grants and high-dollar contributors outweigh the broad consensus of the scientific community the UCS claims to speak for. UCS positions are not subject to any type of internal review, peer review or consensus-building process. In this case, it has become a matter of politically correct science, when the UCS should be practicing scientifically correct politics.
I strongly support the UCS positions on most energy, environmental and security issues, because in most cases these positions are based on sound science. The biotech program is an unfortunate exception. Even in this case, the UCS is far more responsible than most anti-biotech groups. They really have a hard time coming up with justifications for their basic position, since they tend not to make up facts.
Hey moonraven, thanks for your thoughtful comments. Would you do me a favor? Contact Monsanto, tell them what a great job I'm doing for them, and ask them to send my check ASAP, cause I've got bills to pay, and meanwhile this stuff is taking entirely too much of my time.
hey how about europe and the rest of the world deciding for itself-- wouldn't it be nice if the military industrial government complex would just butt out.
i'm betting on the money though, of there is a great profit to be made, any problems will be hidden as much as possible.
BTW the last time I heard, Bt corn also contained the antibiotic Kanamycin and presumably some other stuff.
Guessing, though, the Bt corn is probably as hell of a lot safer for consumption than partailly hydrogenated soybean oil and most of the sugar filled garbage that corporate food floods us with
"Blessed Unrest" by Paul Hawken, and
www.lakotafreedom.com
Douglas Barn, I'm glad to see you admit there is no evidence that genetic modification in itself is harmful or especially dangerous. Actually, there is not even any reason to suspect that it might be.
I agree that, logically, one cannot entirely rule out the hypothetical possibility that at some point in the future some evidence or some reason to suspect such harm might emerge. By the same reasoning, it may turn out that the Creationists are correct and the universe is only 5,000 years old.
I do not agree that the reference you cited, which I did review, shows that Bt corn damages any aquatic environments. It suggests the possibility of some subtle effects which, based on the data, should be of very little significance, and which if they do exist and even in the unlikely case that they are of any significance can surely be minimized by following the recommended schedules of crop rotation and which are surely reversible in very little time by simply stopping use of Bt corn. This really does not seem to justify all the concern.
You talk about "the Precautionary Principle." Now, this is an interesting subject. Does it mean that you never do anything unless you are absolutely certain that you know what will happen and that nothing even a little bit harmful can possibly happen? This seems to be the interpretation that some people give to the PP, particularly when there is something they want to stop without having any real justification. If it is accepted, then this strategy can always work, because there is just about nothing that humans do which can meet this standard.
A more reasonable interpretation of the PP is to say that we ought not to take excessive known risks or jump recklessly into the unknown when there is a reason to suspect possible danger. We should then stop and assess what we know about what we're doing and whether there is some harm that can result, and if so, whether we have taken sufficient precautions to detect problems if they arise, and be able to contain or minimize them.
In the case of most agricultural biotechnology, the risks are actually quite small and there is no danger of some catastrophic or irreversible harm. At the same time, the work is being watched very closely and lots of research is being done to look for possible effects, and lots of attention is paid to every wisp of smoke even though not one fire has ever broken out. I would say that "the Precautionary Principle" is being applied quite excessively here, and yet the politically-religiously motivated purists think it isn't enough and that biotech should be stopped outright, for basically no good reason at all.
Due to my current net connection status (warwalking on a battery), I cannot devote enough time to my response as I might like. However, I (and according to polls, if democracy is of any interest, most people on the planet) feel that, with respect to GE organisms being released into the environment, the Precautionary Principle is being applied nowhere near excessively enough. The potential for harm from organisms such as genetically altered Pseudomonas syringae (whose natural spiky shape is very important in the formation of rain in many areas) is not even remotely worth the risk it poses (altered to have a lumpy shape unsuitable to serve as rain nuclei), particularly when one considers the frivolous use for which it was created (protecting California strawberry crops from frost damage).
The Precautionary Principle is basically ignored in an effort to get a new product to market in the hopes of increasing sales. The field is pushed ahead by industry and industry is legally bound to pursue profits. Natural, more effective (and far less profitable) approaches are underfunded, if not entirely ignored. (On example is exposure of work on a GE sweet potato using 19 scientists, taking up $6 million as of 2003, which managed to boost yields by 18%. That is 18% for the GE potato as opposed to 100% - plus virus resistance - by a small-budget Ugandan team using conventional breeding techniques. [See Genetically Modified Crops and Sustainable Poverty Alleviation in Sub-Saharan Africa, Aaron diGrassi.]) All the money wasted on pushing out licenceable product as soon as possible could be much, much better served on risk-free techniques that out-perform their GE counterparts.
As for the research "being watched very closely," perhaps you can point us to some independent, third-party (and not government agencies that may have created the organism in the first place) organisations that are doing this verification. I'm sure the readers here would be very interested in seeing the work; and enough here are familiar with the scientific process (not to mention the political and economic processes behind it all) to make a reasonable assessment of the literature. As it goes so far, the work out of Indiana University is enough to give pause to the brave new science.
Douglas -
The DeGrassi report which you referenced is a fine example of ideologically-motivated scholarship; it is clearly an anti-biotech manifesto with footnotes. It is impossible for me to assess the claims from that report which you cite, since they are given in passing with hardly more detail than your quotation, but most of the issues discussed in the report seem of a political-economic nature. They are very complicated issues involving colonialism and neocolonialism, capitalism, corporate power, corruption, poverty, natural and manmade disasters, population displacement, on and on, yet the one consistent thread that DeGrassi teases out is that somehow biotechnology is bad, not good. It is hard to avoid the feeling that the conclusion was foregone and the evidence was mined to demonstrate it.
I did not see any claim or evidence that the Monsanto genetically modified sweet potatoes were unhealthy to eat or more of a threat to the environment than the ones genetically modified by "conventional breeding." I guess if African farmers really don't like the Monsanto sweet potato then they shouldn't plant it, and no, Monsanto shouldn't be allowed to pressure them into it, either.
I also do not know what to make of your concern that genetically modified pseudomonas will cause the rain to stop falling. Do you have a reference for this? Assuming that the natural pseudomonas has the spiky shape for some reason, what makes you think that the modified variety is going to become dominant in the wild?
I assume that by "the work out of Indiana University" you mean the paper we were discussing above. As I noted, this paper showed only a hypothetical possibility of short-term effects of Bt corn on insect populations in adjacent streams, which cannot be long-term effects or have a wider impact downstream since Bt toxin is an edible protein. The data indicates that such effects, if they exist, should be small, unlike the wholesale destruction of habitat caused by clearing, plowing, and planting corn to begin with.
Mark,
Sorry to point out the obvious, but you are arguing science and logic with a religious belief. Their is a movement out their that firmly believes that our current food supply is less safe compared to yester-year when organic food production was practiced by default. Futhermore, it is plain by the reference to Mother Nature, that a diety is being worshiped as though the forces of nature are designed to take care of us. As you know, the idea that crop plants are natural is silly. Our food plants like corn have been selected and bred by humans for 10,000 years and cannot survive outside of human culture. This religion is analogous to worshipping the laws of nature like gravity by saying it is immoral for people to fly. I would however draw your attention to one error in your arguments about the Rosi-Marshall research on caddisflies. You state that field observations were never made. The following links take you to abstracts describing the field work by this group. What is troubling is the omission of this work from their paper and press releases, and their rationalization of the results to fit their speculation.
http://www.benthos.org/database/allnabstracts.cfm/db/Columbia2007abstracts/id/373
http://www.benthos.org/database/allnabstracts.cfm/db/Columbia2007abstracts/id/370
For the record, I have not used the words "Mother Nature" in any of my posts here and, as far as I remember, anywhere on the net. As for my ideology, I do not claim to uphold any impossible standard of "objectivity," but my training is in physics, so I am rather familiar with the scientific method.
As for addressing the rebuttal, I shall when time presents itself, which is not today.
Douglas,
My comment was to the greater community of commenters, rather than directed at you in particular. Certainly, both sides of this debate can be seen as displaying religous fervor. I believe that the science on this topic is clear; however, the will of the majority has been invoked by some to say that this technology is not wanted or needed. Just to be clear, pure democracies have never been remotely successful. What works is a reprsentative government with the representatives selected somewhat democratically. As a physicist, I am sure that you might be surprised if a biologist or a majority vote of lay people were used to design a nuclear reactor; or for that matter, if the folks in your community voted on what medical treatment you should receive the next time you get ill. The evils of big bussiness have also been seen as a reason to reject this technology. Last I looked, we are all allowed to sell safe products. Whether people buy them or not is their choice. I suppose that the majority of the group discussing this topic believe that farmers are a stupid group that have had this technolgy thrust down their throats. Well wake up. Farmers buy these products because they are better and safer than the alternatives. As far as saving seed, farmers can continue to do this as they have always done, as long as they don't want to buy the technology that folks have developed at great expense, and have protected with patents. This is no different than you protecting an invention that you come up with. Patents encourage investment in new ideas by allowing the inventor a temporary monopoly on their technology. Making theives that steal this technology out to be heroes is criminal. This is no accidental action. Farmers save herbicide-tolerant seed in violation of a legal agreement that they sign. They plant this seed and then use a herbicide that would kill the plants if they did not contain this patented trait. They steal the profit advantage of the product without paying the inventor his fair share. This share is shown to be fair by the fact that the majority of farmers pay this fee for the right to increase their profits as well. Don't be fooled. There are agendas on both sides, but don't confuse science with politics!
Again, time is an issue here. I'll be saving this page and going through it. But this time I feel that I should not be defending me, but you from yourself, Mark. My bit about "Mother Nature" was to Mr Obvious, not you.
And since I am mentioning it, M. Obvious, the idea that the use of a common metaphor, i.e. "Mother Nature," is evidence of neo-paganism or any other religion is, well, being as polite as I can, desperate and weak.
At any rate, until I have time to sort through everything.
Douglas,
Your reference to neo-paganism intrigued me so I Googled the phrases "Mother Earth" and "neo-paganism". I got 1,850 hits. You might want to read some of these. However, I was referring to the personification of nature and the act of endowing this force with a will as faith-based rather than scientific. Science and logic are, in my opinion, not very persuasive tools for disuading faith-based beliefs. It is akin to those that try to use the process of evolution to disprove Christianity. Such acts are futile and silly. Faith, by definition, does not require proof. By the way, believing in both evolution and God are quite compatible unless you do not think that God can shape the world through any process that he sees fit. I am simply saying that scientists and those that believe that nature is a devine entity that should not be messed with, are simply talking past each other. They are speaking different languages.
First off, I see, Mr Obvious. Does Google hits equals confirmation that using the term means that you are taking a religious position?
But I gather from your latest post that you were not addressing me.
Now, apologies for the delay. I have other matters more pressing than this reply. As such, I will be rather brief.
You say, "The DeGrassi report which you referenced is a fine example of ideologically-motivated scholarship; it is clearly an anti-biotech manifesto with footnotes."
What makes it so clear? Was it sentences like the one regarding Bt cotton as follows: "Environmental sustainability is currently moderate, but could potentially be moderate to strong." Again, moderate to strong, assuming that it does not run into the problems I highlighted with regarding Bt corn, but those are the author's words there.
How about this regarding the corn: "Environmental sustainability is currently low to moderate, but could potentially be raised."
"[C]ould potentially be raised." Well, that one may not count as it is clearly not clearly anti-biotech. Rather it acknowledges that GM products might be useful. In other words, not "clearly an antibiotech manifesto," as "anti-biotech manifesto[s]" do not acknowledge that biotech products could be useful.
As for the focus on alleviation of poverty in the paper, I think that is fair game, considering Monsanto's spin doctors try to sell their wares on the grounds of poverty alleviation. Yes, the history of the political economy of the region is important, very important indeed as deGrassi actually points out in some detail in the paper. But this cannot be justly used as a smokescreen for Monsanto's or proponent's claims – particularly ridiculously incorrect ones like the claim that the potato could "End Kenyan Famine" [see deGrassi's paper].
You say, "It is impossible for me to assess the claims from that report which you cite, since they are given in passing with hardly more detail than your quotation
It's in the paper, but here, let me help you out. His source for the scientists on the potato project was pages 196 to 199 of J. Lewis in "Leveraging Partnerships Between the Public and Private Sector--Experience of USAID's Agricultural Biotechnology Program," published in Agricultural Biotechnology and the Poor, in 1999.
The source of the $6 million dollar figure is unclear. However, I do not know why the claim that a project started in 1991 with 19 scientists would cost $6 million dollars is controversial. I'll admit that it seems a bit low, but not that controversial.
[A comparison is interesting, though. Since 1982, the World Bank had spent $60 million total in agricultural research (i.e. not just sweet potatos, but all research). In other words, the GM team burned through a comparatively disproportionate amount of cash.]
The source for the 18% increase from the GM potato is from the research team's inadequate data sample of farms, but it is cited to M. Qaim in "The Economic Effects of Genetically Modified Orphan Commodities: Projections for Sweet potato in Kenya," Brief No. 13, published in 1999.
The figure for the 100% increase in a non-transgenetic sweet potato bred by conventional means is sourced to R.W. Gibson in "Promotion of and Technical Support for Methods of Controlling Whitefly-Borne Viruses in Sweet Potato in East Africa: Final Technical Report," 2002.
I thought it clear enough that the reason those figures were mentioned by deGrassi was to highlight the disproportionate amount of resources spent to create an organism that underperforms conventional potatoes.
What is interesting regarding the potato project that I did not mention, however, is that they promoters of the project cooked the books on the figures of production to make their potato look like a better performer than it was. (They stated the average Kenyan yield was 6 tonnes per hectare when the FAO stats say it is 9.7 tons and national stats say it is 10.4 tonnes. Creative lying sells unnecessary GM potatoes, I guess.)
Also interesting is how (unless deGrassi is to be reasonably suspected of lying for some mysterious reason) the team had refused to release data on their trials which were in their third year at the time of publication of deGrassi's paper.
You say, "It is hard to avoid the feeling that the conclusion was foregone and the evidence was mined to demonstrate it.
Your feelings are irrelevant to me. Furthermore, after your incorrect pooh-poohing of the Indiana University study and incorrectly brushing deGrassi's piece as "an anti biotech manifesto," it is hard for me to avoid the feeling that any evidence tarnishing the reputation of either the field of genetic technology or any product from it will be in contrast with a foregone conclusion you have that the evidence is false or flawed.
I did not see any claim or evidence that the Monsanto genetically modified sweet potatoes were unhealthy to eat or more of a threat to the environment than the ones genetically modified by "conventional breeding."
Indeed. That was not in the scope of the paper as is evidenced even by the title. What it does show, however (again, unless you are claiming that deGrassi is either lying, in err, or should for some reason not be trusted), is that the project was a colossal waste of resources, and wasting resources will not alleviate poverty, as the author suggests.
The entire sweet potato project and its millions of dollars of funds went to protect against the sweet potato feathery mottle virus. Millions of dollars. Millions of dollars to create a modified variety of potato that farmers did not prefer to grow. Millions of dollars to create a potato resistant to the sweet potato feathery mottle virus when resistant potatoes already existed at the time. So why spend all that money on something that already existed, and in a more desirable cultivar? Looking at the history of the project, we see Monsanto as the leading force behind it. The potato worked out great for them with marvelous claims of how they were helping Africa (with an unwanted, inferior potato), getting their team member on CNN, 60 Minutes, the NYT, Nature and NOVA. Great PR, bully for them. And the claim was made by the very pro-biotech Florence Wambugu of the team that the virus "is a classic example of a problem that cannot be solved through conventional breeding". Now either she is an extremely bad researcher though laziness or ignorance, or a liar. Seeing as how she said her mother grew up growing the potato the team modified, the latter is more likely. Too bad they were so insistent on wasting money on genetic modification for the sake of genetic modification when closer observation would have revealed the "problem" was not a problem anyway. The resources might have been put to something useful.
So is this the way mankind is to be helped? Hi tech solutions with unclear consequences for problems that already have solutions. Here is something to ponder. If it were possible to, say, genetically engineer an organism, with all its underlying financial costs and unforeseen potential future, externalized costs, that could break down dioxins, break down persistent organophosphates, chromate copper arsenate, break down pentachlorophenls, break down sarin and VX gas, break down anthracenes (why stop, I'm on a roll here), absorb mercury from water, act as an anti-tumor agent and an anti-cancer agent, boost the immune system, scavenge free-radicals in the body, suppress species that are responsible for the loss of thousands if not millions of board feet of timber like those of the genus Armillaria, all while helping to increase soil fertility and sequester carbon? Would it be worth flying in the face of the precautionary principle and worth the great financial expense?
For those in all but arid regions who have spent time looking at their local ecology, the answer should be a resounding no, there is no need to spend vast amounts of money and create uncertain potential risks to create Trametes versicolor when we already have Trametes versicolor, which grows prolifically and does everything I mentioned above. This is but one example. I might have made a similarly impressive list for Euphorbia tirucalli, Azadirachhta indica, Salvia officinalis, or one of thousands of other species of the different kingdoms. But there would be next to nothing in it for Monsanto, of course; and using naturally occurring organisms leaves geneticists with nothing to do. Other than those two minor flaws, the path with the least risk and the least cost is to spend a little mental effort to research solutions that already exist, such as was the case for the sweet potato. It was a problem that already had a solution.
Now, on to pseudomonas syringae. My source is personal comments by Geoff Lawton in 2004 and Dr. Bill Mollison, 2005. [I did not and am not going to provide references for T. versicolor above as my time is limited, I have not fallen back on the request for references for your claims like the one regarding the staffing of the Union of Concerned Scientists, and more importantly, I am not your research bitch.) As for my concerns that it could become dominant, that is a very reasonable concern considering the precautionary principle. Bacteria breed and do so prolifically. It is not an unreasonable hypothesis that it could at least partially displace the natural form thereby decreasing rainfall. And for what? As a solution to a problem that already had a simple, cost effective, risk-free solution. But it is not for the defendant to make the case. It is the responsibility of the proponent of a course of action to defend that action. So, defend the action and be as demanding of sources yourself as you are of others.
On to the Bt corn. As Mr. Obvious so kindly pointed out, the risk is not hypothetical but is based on data observed in the field. Now the research needs to be done to figure out what this one unsurprising revelation can lead us to in the greater environment. What affect is there on reliant populations like salmonids? On birds? Bats? Other insects? On the already compromised phosphorus cycle? All possible risks and for what? Like the sweet potato, it is solving problems that already have safe, established, cost-effective solutions.
You say, "As a physicist, I am sure that you might be surprised if a biologist or a majority vote of lay people were used to design a nuclear reactor; or for that matter, if the folks in your community voted on what medical treatment you should receive the next time you get ill.
For the record, I am not a physicist. I merely majored in the subject. But you raise a good question. Yes, what if geneticists (possibly incompetent or dishonest ones – whichever is the case – like Florence Wambugu) politicians and corporate leaders were to dictate to you what you were to eat, potentially compromising your environment as well, against your will leaving you only the option of producing for yourself to get cultivars that have served mankind successfully for thousands of years? No, I would not like that.
But yes, I would be surprised if biologists or lay people designed a nuclear reactor. Assuming they did their preparations, they could even design it to work as well as one currently might expect, given enough time.
I do realise your point is tyranny of the majority. What is the alternative? Tyranny of the technocrats? Folks like Wambugu letting us know what is good for us? Personally, I'll go with tyranny of the majority.
You say, "Well wake up. Farmers buy these products because they are better and safer than the alternatives.
You can drop the tone anytime. I know a lot of farmers and consult to farmers and institutions working towards sustainable agriculture. Interesting business. In the words of one very successful farmer I know, farmers are "stupid" and "lazy." And knowing a number or farmers, that is true of some of them. When farmers hear fantastic promises like those made for the sweet potato, and after the success of advancements in the 20th century, they often tend to take new promises as good. They also almost always can't afford to run their own trials to see what's best. The new product comes out and, if they believe the hype, they grab it. They are fallible human beings, not the mythical homo economus that always follows in his or her self interest. (If they did, the Great Plains would have 6 to 10 feet more top soil than they do currently, and they would not have created the salinisation of large areas of those plains, particularly after clear precedents of those disasters.) But what does this tell us of the need or safety of genetically modified crops? Does the huge number of smokers in China offer some kind of evidence of the safety of smoking? Perhaps to a smoker in denial.
You say, "As far as saving seed, farmers can continue to do this as they have always done, as long as they don't want to buy the technology that folks have developed at great expense, and have protected with patents.
Well, the founding technology and a lot of the current products were created with tax-payer money, not by the financial sweat of Aventis, Monsanto, and their ilk. But try your argument with Percy Schmeiser who got Monsanto's product without wanting it then was sued because pollen spreads. (And interesting that Monsanto had to commit a crime to find out that pollen spread to his field.) Or tell that to Indian farmers who might very likely be illiterate and unfamiliar with the contract they are being urged into against their best interests.
Now, all that said, I will repeat what is obvious. It is not up to the opposition, but the proponent of a course of action to defend that position. I have pointed out adverse affects of Bt corn – affects that you just pooh-poohed away without justification. I pointed out ultimately grossly wasteful efforts to create and promote an inferior GM sweet potato. You incorrectly brushed aside that as well. You are going to need something more than demanding references and saying 'oh pishah' in so many words.
Mr Barnes:
It has been a worthwhile discussion. I suppose it is just possible that some people will check back to see who "won" or that future googlers will happen upon this exchange. But not many. Therefore I am willing to let you have the last lengthy post, but not to leave the impression that you have effectively rebutted, well, anything.
First, about the Rosi-Marshall research on Bt corn, I feel you are being completely dishonest in failing to acknowledge that what that research shows is that any effects from Bt corn on aquatic insects in nearby streams are very small and may not exist at all. Furthermore, you did not address my points that any such effects can only be local and temporary since Bt toxin is a biodegradable protein, and that in summary any such effects are utterly insigificant in comparison with the impacts of clearing and plowing the land and growing corn to begin with.
Second, about the pseudomonas and rainfall, you admit you do not even have a reference, and that you were merely repeating some offhand remark someone made at a conference. On the basis of this you would raise a kind of cheap disaster flick scenario of global calamity, a perfect example of the kind of baseless fearmongering which the anti-biotech camp is always ready to engage in. Yet you do not address the question I put to you, why would you expect the non-spiky variety to replace the wild type, assuming the wild variety is spiky for some reason? This is a very general question applying to fears that genetically engineered organisms will run wild and wreak havoc.
On this point, you did not address the issues I raised about the vague concept of a "precautionary principle," specifically the point that one ought to have some reasonable basis for thinking some harm may result from something somebody else wants to do before demanding they stop in the name of "the precautionary principle." You state that "It is the responsibility of the proponent of a course of action to defend that action." Why? Does one have to defend against every loony concern anyone might express? Or can they at least be required to say something that makes some sense in light of what is known?
Finally, the DeGrassi report is clearly anti-biotech. As I noted, its main concerns are not threats of global ecological catastrophe resulting from frankenfoods gone wild. But it looks at a number of very complicated situations involving capital, politics, development and economic turmoil, where biotechnology was involved. Since biotech was associated in these situations with the role of multinational corporations acting as neocolonial agents, not surprisingly DeGrassi found reasons to score biotech with more minuses than pluses. As I said, this is clearly a method of ideologically-motivated scholarship.
There is still not enough information to evaluate DeGrassi's specific claims about sweet potatoes. 18% yield improvement compared with what? 100% yield improvement compared with what? I am very skeptical that the facts behind these claims justify such a comparison, but I can't tell because I'm not your "research bitch", either.
Douglas,
Wow! Farmers continue to buy more and more biotech crops because they are stupid and lazy, or because they have become addicted to them through some unknown substance placed there by Monsanto? Thanks for explaining this to me. Wow!
Thanks for also clarifying that you are not a physicist. This was actually bothering me.
Addendum - Mr. Barnes, I have visited your blog and it is apparent that, while not a physicist, you are a practitioner of a certain kind of agricultural bioscience which is concerned with the choice of plants and varieties, insect predators, landscape engineering and so on. This kind of knowledge and practice is valid and commendable and seems to me perfectly compatible with the use of genetically engineered varieties where appropriate. I have no doubt that the application of molecular biotechnology can benefit from your kind of expertise, nor that in the work that you do appropriate applications of genetically modified organisms would suggest themselves if you were not ideologically opposed to their use.
'Wow! Farmers continue to buy more and more biotech crops because they are stupid and lazy'
You're just grapping quotes out of context Mr.Obvious.
Keep reading the paragraph you have cherry picked and the point becomes clear...
'When farmers hear fantastic promises like those made for the sweet potato, and after the success of advancements in the 20th century, they often tend to take new promises as good.They also almost always can't afford to run their own trials to see what's best. The new product comes out and, if they believe the hype, they grab it. They are fallible human beings, not the mythical homo economus that always follows in his or her self interest'.
Farmers are limited by the options available to them. The claim that 'some' farmers may be 'stupid' does not negate the claim that they 'almost always' can't afford to test the evidence for themselves and that they are constrained in their agency by market forces. The farmer will always act in what he/she believes to be their best interest and accurately defining your best interest is not easy when you have neither the funding or the time to check the 'facts' out for yourself...
Externalities are rarely a factor when the farmer (or anyone) is deciding what is in their best interest.
Mark, as you feel I have not adequately addressed some points, let's go from the top again.
You say Focus in the one word "may" in the study: "Note the word "may".
Yes, may as in "the warning on cigarette packages that smoking "may" cause low birth weight and birth defects.
You say ""I feel you are being completely dishonest in failing to acknowledge that what that research shows is that any effects from Bt corn on aquatic insects in nearby streams are very small and may not exist at all."
The study says ""widespread planting of Bt crops has unexpected ecosystem-scale consequences" Is says nothing of the scope. As easily as you use tobacco company-like escapes focusing on "may," I can focus on the word "has" above from the report. The difference, again, is they say nothing of magnitude ("very small" etc.), so that is just speculation on your part.
You say "Numerous studies have shown that Bt does not build up in soil and has had little impact on non-target insects; in particular, it has not harmed the Monarch butterfly, despite all the hysteria."
First, what is your citation soil? Here's what I have from the National Science Foundation in October last year: It points to "previous studies showing that corn-grown toxins harm beneficial insects living in the soil."
Additionally, in December 2, 1999, Nature published a study by Deepak Saxena, Saul Flores,and G. Stotzky showing Bt toxin in root exudates from cry 1Ab Bt corn and note that the toxic component in BTK has been shown to persist in soils for a recorded 234 days.
Christoph Tebbe of the Federal Agricultural Research Centre in Braunschweig, Germany also did a field study showing buildup of the Bt toxin from one year to the next in the MON 810 Bt strain.
And the blurb he posted from the study does not say "it has not harmed the Monarch butterfly," it says monarchs "do not consume enough Bt corn pollen in the field to be negatively affected." It does not make an unscientific statement like "has not harmed" them. More on the monarchs later.
You say about the EU block on Bt corn "This has terrible secondary effects on African farmers who are forced to forgo the benefits of GM crops in order to avoid "contamination" which would exclude the products of their own country's agribusinesses from the European market."
Where is this evidence of "terrible secondary effect" that lack of a specific export crop has on African farmers, particularly when cash crops are known generally to benefit large land holders and not most farmers? This looks very much like an appeal to pity here.
You ask ""How about the impacts of planting corn in the first place? Clearing the land, grading and plowing it, diverting the streams - didn't that alter the environment quite a bit? Didn't that destroy habitat wholesale? Which is the larger impact, Bt corn, pesticides, or agriculture itself? Or is this question irrelevant for some reason?"
That agriculture has negative impact is known. To plant a field of Bt corn or conventional corn on a piece of virgin land using conventional methods would have the same damage in preparing the land. The strain of corn does not affect this. What is the unknown, and the point, is that the effects of GMOs is not certain. The safest path is to wait until something is understood before using it, again the precautionary principle, which refuses to go away. Additionally, my observation that "properly farmed corn (i.e. not lazy, idiotic monocultures of the stuff) can be grown organically (and is) with minimal losses to pest insects and minimal energy input (i.e. petroleum)," still holds.
You say "Previous research demonstrated that the effects on nontarget terrestrial organisms depended on exposure concentration and that terrestrial insects, specifically lepidopteran larvae, typically do not consume enough Bt corn pollen in the field to be negatively affected (4)." Translation: the Monarch butterflies are doing just fine, thank you."
I have not mentioned the monarchs. I cited the effect on caddisflies. The findings of that report have yet to be rebutted. But interesting after focusing on that word so often appearing on cigarette packages – "may" – that the word "typically" is now to mean "no damage" as in "typically do not consume enough… to be negatively affected" is to be read as "just fine". Rather like saying that humans typically do not murder one another, so murder is not an issue for humans. Indeed the total population may not be in threat and even only small numbers affected, but do not be so desperate to brush off the effect by characterizing it as "just fine". And for the record, I am not overly concerned about monarch populations. I have noticed anecdotal declines in my local area, but causation is a very complex thing to sort out.
The interesting thing about the study on monarchs (Mark K. Sears et al, Impact of Bt corn pollen on monarch butterfly populations: A risk assessment, 2001) when you actually read the study, is that there were significant harmful effects on monarchs from one particular strain (Event 176 Bt corn).
"Hellmich et al. (3) suggested a conservative
lowest-observable-effect-concentration (LOEC) be
established for these hybrids at 1,000 pollen grainsycm2 of
milkweed leaf surface on the basis of a combined analysis of
laboratory bioassays exposing larvae to 1,000–1,600 of pollen
grainsycm2. Growth inhibition was evident for larvae exposed to
event 176 pollen at 5–10 grainsycm2, the lowest dose where
activity was noted by Hellmich et al. (3), therefore the effective
environmental concentrations for event 176 corn pollen will
frequently exceed this threshold in fields where it is planted.
…
It is apparent from Fig. 2 that significant overlap of commonly
encountered concentrations of pollen from event 176 hybrids with
doses necessary for growth inhibition (and mortality) would likely
occur within or near cornfields.
…
For example, over 50% of a cohort
of first instars exposed to 10 pollen grainsycm2 on milkweed leaves
would be expected to exhibit growth inhibition. When compared
with the pollen deposition curve, 90% of the samples of milkweed
leaves examined in our study of pollen deposition had a density at
or above this level.
…
In addition to the fact that a significant
proportion of land in Iowa is devoted to corn production, a
milkweed plant in cornfields [ in Iowa] was 1.7 times more likely to receive a
monarch egg than a milkweed plant in nonagricultural land (4).
…
Even though milkweed densities are approximately seven times
higher in nonagricultural land than in cornfields, the proportion of
monarch larvae contributed by milkweed from within cornfields is
45 times greater than that of nonagricultural land. …56% of monarchs in Iowa are estimated to originate from within cornfields (4).
…
If, instead, only event 176
hybrids were grown to the maximum extent in Iowa, 6.1% of the
monarch population would be at risk.
Again, 6.1% of the world's entire population would have been at risk were one state to have been planted up with the wrong strain. And naturally local populations would have been very seriously affected had the whole state been planted or just intermittent farms. The point here is not to suggest that the statewide scenario happened. Rather, it is to address the false "translation" you made.
For the other strains, there is toxicity, but in field conditions, toxic levels have not been observed, so no acute toxicity was expected. Long-term effects are unknown as they are outside of the scope of the study.
You quote "Research on the effects of B. thuringiensis var. israelensis (Bti), applied directly into aquatic habitats for mosquito and blackfly control, found conflicting results (14), with some studies demonstrating negative effects on nontarget aquatic insects (15, 16) and some studies showing no deleterious effects of Bt toxins on nontarget aquatic taxa (17)." Then you say "Translation: previous research looking for negative effects of Bt toxin on bugs in the water has shown that such effects are minor and may not exist at all.
No, that is the incorrect translation. The correct translation would be that some studies have shown that non-target aquatic insects receive negative effects from Bt application, and that other studies have shown no negative effects. No mention of scale (i.e. minor or otherwise) mentioned at all here. Your characterisation is extremely dubious, particularly when we can read the original right there.
You say "Regarding the UCS, the claim is that "they hired two staffers who staked out an anti-biotech stance, and they continue to retain them despite many protests from scientists in their membership."
I can just use the same response you would give to that were someone to make a similar claim to you: "It is impossible for me to assess [your] claims." It is quite a claim and turns out to be quite a convenient escape from the warnings of a respected organisation. How do you know this? Who are the two staffers? I'm guessing that "an anti-biotech stance" is to mean "bias." If so, what exactly have they written that demonstrates that they have "an anti-biotech stance" as opposed to a legitimate concern about the methods, effects or products of genetic engineering?
If this "anti-biotech stance" can be confirmed and after it is – say that again, after it is - confirmed, what excuse would you make regarding the warnings of geneticist Dr. David Suzuki and scientist Rene Van Acker, to name just two?
You say "[Y]ou did not address my points that any such effects can only be local and temporary since Bt toxin is a biodegradable protein, and that in summary any such effects are utterly insigificant in comparison with the impacts of clearing and plowing the land and growing corn to begin with."
Indeed, I did not address them. As there are only so many hours in the day and as it takes at minimum one paragraph and usually many more to address any single claim in a single sentence, I am indeed guilty of respecting my time and energy. I also did not have a full copy of the study. Now I do. Assessing a block of information like that with any sort of accuracy takes time. It takes time to read through a 4 1/4-page block of text, plus a 6- page document (I also picked up the paper cited in the Rosi-Marshall study "Impact of Bt corn pollen on monarch butterfly populations: A risk assessment). On that note, am I to believe that you went through the 84 pages of the deGrassi paper and made an accurate assessment of it, or that you were able to read, assess, and fairly respond to my 4-page post in a record time of only 118 minutes, assuming that you started reading the very second I posted it, which, of course, you couldn't have?
Anyway, are the affects local and temporary? They are temporary. Many things with negative impacts are. War is one example. That is hardly an excuse not to avoid it. Is it local? Most probably yes. Yet we know some areas plant large swaths of corn (the "widespread planting" mentioned in the study). What we see from the study is that one could expect toxic detritus to travel more than 2 km from the source (site 2F in the study) where stream velocities are greater. One would not be following the scientific method were on to claim to know that the effect is not regional in areas large-scale planting. There simply is no data. But the cumulative effect of local planting could translate into regional effects, particularly considering the potential for knock-on effects. It is very likely, however, that the effect on caddisflies would be clustered around sites directly adjacent to farms growing Bt corn. As for the effects on the predators of the caddisflies and on nutrient cycling, the effects are unclear.
Indeed, these are area of concern that I have repeatedly mentioned and that the authors of the study arise:
Lower growth rates and higher mortality of stream
caddisflies, as measured in our laboratory feeding studies, could
potentially reduce secondary production (21) and consequently the
prey biomass available to stream and riparian predators, such as
fishes, amphibians, and birds. We predict that the effects will be
most evident with caddisflies because of their close relationship to
the lepidopteron target species, but how the effect would extend to
other aquatic invertebrates is currently unknown.
Again, you compare this one effect on aquatic life with the entire practice of agriculture. You should realise that in order to grow Bt corn, there must be land that has been cleared. And the choice to plow versus employ no-till can be made with Bt corn as well as with conventional strains. Clearing and plowing is not the exclusive domain of convention corn, so the comparison is not a meaningful one.
A more useful comparison make is the environmental impact on a plant that constantly gives off the insecticide of Bacillus thuringiensis versus the controlled application of BTK (Bacillus thuringiensis kurstaki) only when necessary. The scope of that comparison would address what is known (i.e. effects on aquatic organisms, affects on monarchs) about both strains and would consider the likelihood of pest species becoming immune to constant exposure from Bt corn versus intermittent, controlled exposure from the application of BTK. A hypothesis that is not unreasonable is that the negative effects would be greatly reduced, though not entirely eliminated, and the threat of the development of pest-species would also be greatly reduced.
You say "I agree that, logically, one cannot entirely rule out the hypothetical possibility that at some point in the future some evidence or some reason to suspect such harm might emerge. By the same reasoning, it may turn out that the Creationists are correct and the universe is only 5,000 years old."
As we have seen just from the monarch study, harm has already emerged. However, the possibility I point out does not have to violate any of the known laws of physics to be discovered whereas your point about the Creationists does. In other words, evidence of such harm is within the realm of what is considered physically possible, but the possibility that Creationists are correct is considered physically impossible by physics. In other words, your comparison needs a lot of revision to be "[b]y the same reasoning".
You say "I do not agree that the reference you cited, which I did review, shows that Bt corn damages any aquatic environments. It suggests the possibility of some subtle effects which, based on the data, should be of very little significance, and which if they do exist and even in the unlikely case that they are of any significance can surely be minimized by following the recommended schedules of crop rotation and which are surely reversible in very little time by simply stopping use of Bt corn. This really does not seem to justify all the concern.
Well, you are not getting this from the brief, that's for sure. You had access to the full paper. Quote for me what it actually says because the only thing the brief says about the scale of the problem is that it has "ecosystem-scale" effects and makes no note of the magnitude (i.e. whether or not it is subtle), so your comments regarding magnitude are pure opinion and not based on fact.
Here is what study team member Jennifer Tank of the University of Notre Dame did not say: She did not say the effect was "subtle," and she did not say it "should be of very little significance." Those are just interpretations you made up. What she said was ""The exact extent to which aquatic ecosystems are, or will be, impacted is still unknown and likely will depend on a variety of factors, such as current ecological conditions, agricultural practices and climate/weather patterns."
Similarly, the brief makes no prescriptions as to the course of action to take, so your comments regarding crop rotation are also pure opinion.
You insisting on there being no problem or, barring that, no significant problem belies, I think, a desperate need you have for Bt corn to be accepted and used, objections be damned.
You insist on seeing the science behind every claim that contradicts your position (maybe knowing most people will not bother to look, I wonder); yet when science is presented, you object to the science and assert your opinion. If you truly were interested in the science and had any understanding of ecology, the presentation of the information I posted regarding the known effects on aquatic life would have you very interested in the effects on the systems and organisms I mentioned. Assuming an understanding of ecology, a compromise in the population of caddisflies makes one immediately considers a possible compromise in the phosphorus cycle and possible compromises in populations of predator animals. To dismiss these a priori as having little significance is extremely unscientific.
You say "A more reasonable interpretation of the PP is to say that we ought not to take excessive known risks or jump recklessly into the unknown when there is a reason to suspect possible danger."
Sounds reasonable, yes. I would add that the gain of the action in question needs to be addressed as well as full accounting as to why less-risky, workable solutions should not be employed.
So let us look. Let's take Bt corn as our subject. What is the marvelous gain to be had? What is the concrete data from an independent laboratory, not a biotech company and their Wambugu-like "researchers"? What is the actual known benefit? (But benefits can only be compared when considering alternatives, which I'll look at in a moment.)
Next, what is the extent of the known risks. The one study you cite (Sears study on monarchs) shows a non-zero acute risk, but a very small risk to the whole population.
Next we have the most recent study on aquatic life which I cited. More studies are necessary to find the extent of that problem.
After that, we have to find what knock-on effects there are to the discovered effects on aquatic life.
Once that is completed, we can look at the alternatives which would be controlled, intermittent usage of BTK on conventional strains when necessary. Another option to compare with would be the conventional strain treated with BTK but also grown in conjunction with Stropharia rugoso annulata as is done in Hungary and other parts of eastern Europe, and in conjunction with mycorrhizal species like Glomus aggregatum, G. intraradices, G. mosseae, Pisolithus tintorius and Rhizopogon spp, which increase plant health and resistance to pest attack. [There are other options known to increase plant health and reduce pest loss, but for simplicity's sake, I'll include those two options.]
With these trials carried out by independent researchers (no Wambugu's thank you), we can compare effects on non-target invertebrates and vertebrates, effects on nutrient cycling, yields, soil health, soil erosion, embodied energy and cost (not forgetting licensing fees in either conventional, if they exist or GM stains).
Now we could assess if there is, in fact, any significant yield gain in Bt corn over the best performing conventional strains, if there is a significant cost savings (including externalized costs like R&D costs and environmental cleanup costs, if any), and significant savings in embodied energy costs. There result of each criteria may very well be "none." And if so, the debate ends there with the GMO in question showing no advantage whatsoever. If it does show advantage, it can then honestly compared to see if the advantage outweighs the known risks, including the risk of the usefulness of BTK being rendered obsolete due to pest-species adaptation to overabundance of the Bt toxin because of the transferred gene – something that is a common occurrence in the overuse of poisons and has occurred in the diamondback moth due to over application of conventional Bt insecticide.
Now even without doing that, I highly doubt that Bt corn could outperform conventional corn with BTK being applied only when needed. But if you point to a study that has done what I mention above, I'll believe it. As J. M. Keynes once said, "When the facts prove me wrong, I change my mind."
You say "I would say that "the Precautionary Principle" is being applied quite excessively here…"
I suggest it should be applied, but as I point out, it is not being applied at all.
On the deGrassi report, I was able provide a couple of quotes (scroll up) showing that deGrassi does not dismiss biotech out of hand and is therefore not "anti-biotech." You continue to assert he is without so much as a single quote to defend your assertion. It appears as though you assign a different meaning to the term "anti-biotech stance" than I do. To you it seems to apply to anyone who demonstrates that there is any kind of reason to choose conventional crops over genetically modified ones.
As for what it means to increase yields as mentioned in the deGrassi paper, you establish sites with as equal conditions on each site as possible. On those sites, you have control groups for comparison. After your selective breeding, gene transfer, soil amendments or whatever the scope of the trail, you make a yield comparison (taken at least 4 feet from any edge to avoid an edge effect) establishing average mass per hectare or other unit of area on your sites. You then establish increase, decrease or lack of change compared to the control group. This is clear enough.
Recapping here, you do not provide even one single little quote to back up your claim of deGrassi's stance, you give no evidence to support any fears that deGrassi would lie in reporting the findings in his sources, and you make a very odd and frankly unbelievable claim that you do not understand what a percentage yield increase means (is this now a fair game for me to play should you cite yield data on GMOs?). There is no reason to brush away his findings no matter how damaging they are you your very obvious pro-biotech stance.
Next, regarding Pseudomonas syringae, though I am not surprised, you stand the burden of proof on its head. You are the advocate; you have the responsibility to show safety.
Now, since I know you will not live up to that responsibility, I shall point out the obvious. There is nothing in the history of ecology to suggest that there is not a danger of invasiveness when an organism is introduced into a new environment, including GMOs, some of which have escaped and spread out of control. In this case, invasiveness would have lead to a decrease in rainfall.
Actions are judged by their potential danger (by responsible people at least). When Michael Jackson held his baby out the window, people did not say, "Well, it's obviously safe to hold a baby out of a high window because nothing happened." No, people were concerned with what could have possibly happened.
that aside with ridicule as you did (which was very revealing regarding your lack of a valid argument here) does not take that away.
At this point, I will ask again for the name of an independent, third-party, non-governmental organisation that is watching the biotech industry "very closely" and inspecting their products and claims "very closely." Due to claims of proprietary secrets, I doubt that it would even be possible to watch it "very closely." But as I say, point out the organisation and that will allay my doubts.
Here is what the journal Nutrition and Health has very obviously pointed out: "[M]uch more scientific effort and investigation is necessary before we can be satisfied that eating foods containing GM material in the long run is not likely to provoke any form of health problems. It will be essential to adequately test in a transparent manner each individual GM product before its introduction into the market."
On that note, in early 2002, Health Canada announced it would watch the Canadian population to look for problems from eating GM foods. Less than one year later, Health Canada stopped looking saying that monitoring was too difficult.
And yet again, still absent is the demonstration of the need to spend millions on research to produce GMOs. I hear fantastic claims from the industry but no evidence. I will admit that it has successfully addressed mankind's dire need for glow-in-the-dark pigs and glow-in-the-dark cats, along with the need to get larger amounts of toxic glyphosate into the water tables. But the fantastic gains have yet to be revealed to me.
Now, as for my profession and GMOs role in it, the technology is unsuitable two reasons. Firstly, I assist regional people on a budget and overseas groups with real need and insufficient funds. My work is very precise. I need to know things like whether Euphorbia tirucalli is going to provide a sustainable village enclosure or if using it that way in the wrong place will endanger the village with the co-carcinogens it exudes. But it's not a problem because I know the characteristics of this tree or can look them up. I cannot afford to design an ecosystemic aquaculture unit only to discover that the plants around it are compromising that system. And I cannot afford to have any other ecological surprises to turn up. As for pest control in corn, I have not had any problem with it yet. Why will it suddenly appear? And if it does, why can I not just use BTK?
Again, the groups I help are always running on tiny budgets, not budgets that could pay licensing fees for an engineered organism that has a perfectly good natural counterpart with known characteristics. Indeed, one of the organisations I have helped is dealing with farmer suicides in India that have come about in many cases in no small part thanks to those licensing fees.
What we do in the field and what has proven itself over time is to use natural strains so that seeds can be saved. This allows us to develop more suitable cultivars for each individual site. One cannot do this with either hybrid or GM crops. Many hybrids do not stay viable after a few generations; and GMOs (whether they stay viable or not) are legally protected.
In short, I know my job, and GMOs do not help it in any way, rather the evidence I have seen gives me pause. Some day? Who knows. It seems highly unlikely, though. Right now there are time-tested approaches with no troublesome discoveries popping up and no underlying politics to make research claims questionable that work and work well in climates from cold to hot, wet to dry in soils from ideal to salted and deflocculated. We have the answers and the tools we need. Our only concern is getting the work done. And ignoring potential problems, why would I include something on site that no one can demonstrate to me has a need? It has no artistic merit. The only reason I can see to include it is out of a personal conviction that it needs to be included (i.e. ideology).
Off the GMO topic, there a couple of things that stick out in my mind at the end of all this. There are a couple of parallels I cannot shake. One is the last time someone tried to tell me the precautionary principle did not apply. The other is the last time I hoped that my opponent in the debate was right. Both cases were my fight against the Iraq war. I was right and the result was destruction in many forms, mostly uncounted and unacknowledged. Hopefully this time I am not right.
Mr. Obvious,
You said to Mark on January 3, that "you are arguing science and logic with [sic] a religious belief." If he is arguing it, he has an opponent. To what opponent were you referring specifically?
And is this to suggest that you demonstrate to us logic? I hope not.
After one post by one person - Rebel Farmer - using the term "Mother Nature" as a metaphor with no allusions to any religion whatsoever, you see fit to say "it is plain" that the reference to that term, appearing once in the context s/he did "that a diety is being worshiped as though the forces of nature are designed to take care of us." That does not follow (in other words, a non sequitur). It would be rather like a bunch of devote Christian literalists accusing someone of Darwinism because he said "I wonder how this situation will evolve."
You later say "the will of the majority has been invoked by some to say that this technology is not wanted or needed."
Indeed, appeal to the majority would not be valid regarding claims of need regarding yield increases or decreased inputs (remembering that some GMOs are designed to increase certain inputs); regarding consumer want, it is perfectly valid.
But you then go on to say "Farmers buy these products because they are better and safer than the alternatives."
This is an appeal to the majority. Popularity is not evidence of safety.
Then you go after me saying "Farmers continue to buy more and more biotech crops because they are stupid and lazy". Straw man attack, obviously. Rereading what I actually wrote, you will see I was reporting what a farmer said about farmers which that they are "stupid" and "lazy." My personal observation was that some are. By saying that, I was implying exactly what I said. And the reason I said it, which you so carefully avoid, is to point out the flaw in your argument.
Next "because they have become addicted to them through some unknown substance placed there by Monsanto?" This one, who the hell knows? Attempt at diversionary humor, perhaps.
Four glaring informal fallacies in 4 posts. Great work. Again, I hope we were not to believe you were demonstrating logic to us.
As for what a farmer told me about farmers (which I indicated I did not subscribe to), I can demand he apologise to you, but I don't think you would like his response.
As for belief in religion, I am not seeing much of the basic tool of science.
_H_
It is amazing that farmers can survive. I wonder how they ever selected varieties and inputs before biotech crops were available. Ever hear of university trials and the extention service?
correction to my previous post...
grapping = grabbing
And I should note that what a person 'believes' to be in their best interest is not the same as what 'is' in their best interest.
Mr. Obvious
Microeconomics is the driving force behind the farmers choices. University trials no doubt attempt to include externalities of which the farmer 'believes' he can not.
But my point was merely to point out that you were taking another posters comments out of context.
_H_
I prefer to make my own decisions as to how to best raise my crops. How would you like it if I started protecting you by dictating what options you can choose for your business even if the ones you want have no demonstratable safety concerns? Do-gooders are killing people every day. If you think that biotech crops are growing by leaps and bounds because of misinformation, you are delusional. I suppose I should have included that "farmers are stupid, lazy and are not compitent to make their own choices". Perhaps you like being treated like a child, but I find it insulting! If false advertising is the problem, then this can be solved in the courts. Farmers file product-deficiency claims every day. I don't think Monsanto is quaking in their boots about this. I may not like some of their tactics, but their products are helping feed the world. And no - I don't get a penny of their money.
I prefer to make my own decisions as to how to best raise my crops
I wish I could make my own decisions. Unfortunately cross-contamination and cross-pollination is an issue that I can't avoid. If the farmer in the next field has made his decision, then that decision could and probably would affect my crops. Also, let us not forget that if I (the consumer) have a low income then I probably don't have much choice in what I consume. Should I presume that you believe the choice is for the farmer alone or should the consumer who ends up having to eat the produce have some say in the process ? Those on low income have little say in what they are forced to consume. Surely the issue is one for the wider community which would and should include other farmers and consumers.
If you think that biotech crops are growing by leaps and bounds because of misinformation, you are delusional.
Please don't start poisoning the well. I have made no comment in regard to 'misinformation' being the primary cause... hmmm maybe I should reply "If you think aliens from Venus are responsible for Biotech crops then you are delusional!"
Perhaps you like being treated like a child, but I find it insulting!
Unless you can completely avoid cross-contamination and the natural effect of economic market forces you will by the very definition of treating the farmer as an 'adult' be treating the less fortunate consumer as a 'child'
_H_
First: How will biotech crops in the next field affect your crops in a way that is not more dramatic than his or her planting a different conventional variety which will actually have a material effect on the composition of any crop that gets cross- pollinated. Historically, those that want to raise designer crops for the rich and eccentric have had to take their own precautions. If there is no real damage from cross-pollination (not psychological), then your issues do not outweigh the greater good.
Second: I prefer to leave the decision as to what technology is safe to those with some knowledge of the subject. This is especially important for the ignorant, whether they are poor or rich. Organic food is a gimmick for people with too much money and little sense. Poor people just want, or at least need, safe and nutritious food. Our regulatory agencies have the reponsibility and training to determine this. Like I asked before, do you want consumers determining what treatment you can receive when you are ill? Antibiotics were seen by much of the public as poisons when they were initially discovered. I for one am glad that their availability was not decided by a public vote!
I notice that you ask many questions but answer none... hmmm
: I prefer to leave the decision as to what technology is safe to those with some knowledge of the subject.
Then my solution is to educate and inform the population and not to treat them as 'children'... something you deemed a concern only 2 posts ago :-)
GM products are viewed as safe by those most likely to benefit from such claims... biased sample if ever there was one.
Antibiotics were seen by much of the public as poisons when they were initially discovered
And the claim that the earth was not the centre of the universe was met with an extreme negative reaction at the time by the so called 'experts'. That argument works both ways :-) so whats your point ?
Remember Einstien and his claim 'that god does not play dice' well educated expert but completely wrong when it comes down to Heisenbergs princible of uncertainty ... so which expert do you want to run with...
Self claimed experts does not = accurate information
How do you define 'some knowledge of the subject'? I have some knowledge of the subject so can I decide ?
The people who are most likely to be affected (if those experts who claim a negative outcome are correct) are the consumers.
At least Doctors give you a choice about your treatment. What choice does the poor consumer have ?
Either way I am sure (like me) you have better things to do with your time then play tennis with me. My reason for posting was purely about you cherry picking quotes (I would now add that you appear to make claims without supportive evidence)
It would appear that following your logic through to its conclusion that you would ask the tobacco companies if it is safe to smoke ?
SO lets agree to let the experts decide and agree to disagree on who the experts are. For starters I would discount any evidence presented by anyone who stands to gain from such evidence...
The title of these article is Both Sides Cite Science to Address Altered Corn
So there is little doubt here that the subject is contested by the 'experts'
And I have little time to sit and debate all day...
Yes the article is entitled "Both Sides Cite Science to Address Altered Corn", but one side is represented by the scientists including the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA - which is the scientific regulatory authority of the European Union) and the other side is the politician elected as the European Environmental Commissioner (Dimas) and organizations like Green Peace. So one side includes scientists interpretting science and the other side contains a politician claiming that his own government scientists got it wrong. He is joined by a cheerleading section of fear mongers who get no funding without a flavor-of-the-month crisis. Biotech is just another tool to help improve the effectiveness and sustainability of agriculture. Why is it OK to move many genes from a wild relative into a food plant through breeding with no safety testing, but dangerous to express a single well-tested protein from a more distant organism into a crop plant? -By the way, these are rhetorical questions- Biotech is not automatically safe. But after extensive safety testing, the commercialized products have been shown to be of very very low risk. Testing should continue as long as anyone wants to ask questions, but the results should be interpretted in a reasonable manner looking at the benefits as well to determine the overall worth of each product or technology in comparison to the alternatives. Benefits like less mycotoxins with known demonstratable health effects.
Education is very important, but educated or not, removing a safe choice is treating people like children. And yes, I mean safe as determined by government regulatory scientists, not politicians.
I mean safe as determined by government regulatory scientists
You mean like those government regulatory scientists that told us that there was no link between bovine spongiform encephalopathy and Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease ;-)