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TechnoratiHoover Planned Mass Jailing in 1950
A newly declassified document shows that J. Edgar Hoover, the longtime director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, had a plan to suspend habeas corpus and imprison some 12,000 Americans he suspected of disloyalty.
Hoover sent his plan to the White House on July 7, 1950, 12 days after the Korean War began. It envisioned putting suspect Americans in military prisons.
Hoover wanted President Harry S. Truman to proclaim the mass arrests necessary to "protect the country against treason, espionage and sabotage." The F.B.I would "apprehend all individuals potentially dangerous" to national security, Hoover's proposal said. The arrests would be carried out under "a master warrant attached to a list of names" provided by the bureau.
The names were part of an index that Hoover had been compiling for years. "The index now contains approximately twelve thousand individuals, of which approximately ninety-seven per cent are citizens of the United States," he wrote.
"In order to make effective these apprehensions, the proclamation suspends the Writ of Habeas Corpus," it said.
Habeas corpus, the right to seek relief from illegal detention, has been a fundamental principle of law for seven centuries. The Bush administration's decision to hold suspects for years at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, has made habeas corpus a contentious issue for Congress and the Supreme Court today.
The Constitution says habeas corpus shall not be suspended "unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion, the public safety may require it." The plan proposed by Hoover, the head of the F.B.I. from 1924 to 1972, stretched that clause to include "threatened invasion" or "attack upon United States troops in legally occupied territory."
After the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, President Bush issued an order that effectively allowed the United States to hold suspects indefinitely without a hearing, a lawyer, or formal charges. In September 2006, Congress passed a law suspending habeas corpus for anyone deemed an "unlawful enemy combatant."
But the Supreme Court has reaffirmed the right of American citizens to seek a writ of habeas corpus. This month the court heard arguments on whether about 300 foreigners held at Guantánamo Bay had the same rights. It is expected to rule by next summer.
Hoover's plan was declassified Friday as part of a collection of cold-war documents concerning intelligence issues from 1950 to 1955. The collection makes up a new volume of "The Foreign Relations of the United States," a series that by law has been published continuously by the State Department since the Civil War.
Hoover's plan called for "the permanent detention" of the roughly 12,000 suspects at military bases as well as in federal prisons. The F.B.I., he said, had found that the arrests it proposed in New York and California would cause the prisons there to overflow.
So the bureau had arranged for "detention in military facilities of the individuals apprehended" in those states, he wrote.
The prisoners eventually would have had a right to a hearing under the Hoover plan. The hearing board would have been a panel made up of one judge and two citizens. But the hearings "will not be bound by the rules of evidence," his letter noted.
The only modern precedent for Hoover's plan was the Palmer Raids of 1920, named after the attorney general at the time. The raids, executed in large part by Hoover's intelligence division, swept up thousands of people suspected of being communists and radicals.
Previously declassified documents show that the F.B.I.'s "security index" of suspect Americans predated the cold war. In March 1946, Hoover sought the authority to detain Americans "who might be dangerous" if the United States went to war. In August 1948, Attorney General Tom Clark gave the F.B.I. the power to make a master list of such people.
Hoover's July 1950 letter was addressed to Sidney W. Souers, who had served as the first director of central intelligence and was then a special national-security assistant to Truman. The plan also was sent to the executive secretary of the National Security Council, whose members were the president, the secretary of defense, the secretary of state and the military chiefs.
In September 1950, Congress passed and the president signed a law authorizing the detention of "dangerous radicals" if the president declared a national emergency. Truman did declare such an emergency in December 1950, after China entered the Korean War. But no known evidence suggests he or any other president approved any part of Hoover's proposal.
Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company
119 Comments so far
Show AllThe original is still there. I just quote enough to show what I am referring to. If anyone wants the full context they could use edit/find and stick a phrase in there to get the full post. Cutting and pasting the full post (or full article) is not necessary if it is available to all - only when it is not.
As far as I know, I took short clips from the person's post I was referring to. And I don't want to be insulting so will stop there and assume eggnog on your parts.
vaudree December 26th, 2007 7:33 pm
KEM, you referred to something that happened a long time ago when we first met and that you brought up.
Re "fear mongering" - KEM I just said that I interpreted Paul Bramscher's comments differently than you did - probably because I was not following those other treads you were talking about. Any ways, how can it be fear mongering if one is talking about past events rather than potential future events - explain that to me either of you.
vaudree December 26th, 2007 7:43 pm
stanwe55 - you were talking about the undertaking of non-neutral acts while maintaining the illusion of neutrality during WWII.
Any more!
pacplyer - you try avoiding air freshioner at Christmas! Airfreshioner is designed to coat the air and everything that comes in contact with the air. Some laundry soaps actually dirty the clothes by adding airfreshioner to them. And you try to get rid of the packaging (because that is most apt to be coated) with airfreshioner - you never get all of it in the garbage -
Even trying to get the kid to open up all the packaging and throw it away you can't do that - something always gets missed. And you can understand clothes in the store which may have been put in storage rooms where they use the old trick of using airfreshioner because it kills the bugs, or in a store where there is is a lot of airfreshioner or where the air gets contaminated periodically when they "clean" the store. But when you open up a completely sealed package of clothing it should not be contaminated.
Prune juice is for the constipated - not for those whose bathrooms are up a flight of stairs or those who have just slept off most of a hangover from exposure to airfreshioner. You just have to wait until it wears off - that's it. And, to cheer oneself up, come up with one's own Hoover-style list. I didn't really get all that sick since I was still able to walk without holding onto anything, it was just the odd wrapper at home and having to sleep off enough of it to be alert enough to find and dispose of said wrapper.
Airfreshioner and Airfreshioner laced personal care products are the new tobacco - they have a whole nation of people convinced that when they use these products that they are not doing drugs - that they are doing something completely harmless. But, unlike regular addicts, those who use airfreshioner get everyone around them wasted whether they want to be or not. I am talking about otherwise nice caring people who don't realise (nor do they want to realise, because they would find the thought upsetting) that they are being assholes. But, to be fair, the junk is in so much stuff that it is very hard to avoid being an asshole these days. And someone is making lots of money doing this to people - I am just collateral damage on the way to the bank.
pacplyer says: They were concerned enough to keep their mouths shut. And so the FEMA rumors accomplished exactly what they set out to do, a sort of virtual prison.
And if they did not care for their own safety, they cared for that of their families. Paul Bramscher may have the right idea about fear, though. Risk for the sake of taking a risk may be stupid, but risking nothing is boring. Just be sure, when you take a risk, that you get something out of it to make up for what it costs you.
There are always rules in these things - you are most vulnerable if you are considered either completely unimportant (by belonging to a group with no clout) or enough of a threat (personal actions). Or there is always the feeling that there are rules that if one follows them one can stay out of trouble.
pastor says: I read this site in the vain hope that I might find information useful in doing my part in preventing what I believe is the slow dissolution of the United States by destructive conservative policies. I seek to be informed and to dialogue with people of similar goals.
There is wheat and chaff in every thread. You will never have completely one or the other. I try to give wheat when I can - mainly by sharing the Canadian perspective. One piece of wheat is that looking at the US situation in isolation means that you never see the full picture.
And this article by Tim Weiner is about something that almost happened - what changed in the situation following WWII that made it different from the period immediately before (when Hoover got some of his policies implemented)? During the war, attention was focused elsewhere (meaning that they were not up to fighting domestic issues), and, before that, people were not sickened yet by the ovens. Like I said, Hitler got much of his materials from the States - so if it didn't happen in Germany, it could have happened in the US since the US was already heading in that direction.
pacplyer, in fairness to pastor Hoover could have been handsome and straight - but it would not have changed our opinion of him or his place in history. When Politicians during Question Period start referring to another's appearance, they basically don't have anything to make a logical counter argument with, are evading the subject - and you should smell blood and go in for the kill. And pastor, in fairness to everyone else, taking offense at anything does move the conversation away from the wheat and towards the chaff - even on your part. Meaning that you have played a roll in creating the very situation you say you did not want.
Didn't the Americans have something to do with Pinochet coming to power?
(person elsewhere said): F.J. Strauss is also known as a good friend to some of the most hated dictators worldwide, having amicable connections with the likes of Augusto Pinochet and Alfredo Stroessner. When visiting Pinochet in Chile 1977, he pulled off a really disgusting prank and visited the German Paul Schäfer in his 'settlement' in Chile and spent a night there. / You see, thinking about Strauss is like going through a who is who of filth, lies and violence...reading up on his works makes you get 'von Hölzchen auf Stöckchen: (from branches to twigs...an idiom describing the way you hit on one topic after the other when chatting...each topic prompting the next).
And in the eulogy Mulroney gave Reagan, he credited Reagan for the reunification of Germany. Wikipedia also credits Kohl for the reunification of Germany and Kohl went down from getting bribes from Franz Josef Strauss and Schreiber. Mulroney took bribes from Schreiber for work he pretended to do on behalf of Thyssen. Wasn't Thyssen the company Prescott Bush was involved in. Well it was still around in the 80's.
Drink a quart of prune juice, that cures a hangover and a bad cough.
vaudree: I meant "her" reading isn't making it.
Apparently, mine's not either! I better quit inhaling air freshner as a remedy for Holiday hangover!
(dang edit feature won't let me change it: maybe it's my router?)
Kem, Pac:
Thanks for the reconciliation. Now is the time for vigilance.
I do believe the threats of prisons, so far, to have been worse than their instantiation. In a real-world situation, there are real responses: you rattle the cage, you work out an escape plan. What's the escape plan from a prison of fear?
They're Imperialists to be sure, but they no longer understand their own citizenry and have descended to mafia rule.
VAUDREE, sorry, I don't know what you are talkng about. You wrote that I had written somethng that someone else posted. The edit function had nothhing to do with it. You wrote your post about me several hours after those posts were written. I did thank you for the info on the edit function, as I didn't know it took 15 minutes to show up on your screen, it comes up on mine right away, ___ it it edits.
So long PASTOR, __ take care of yourself bud.
I didn't think you were trying to shut down the topic PAUL. I was just replying to your comments, that you state, if people discuss the serious issues such as FEMA prisons, and state the obvious, we are advocating fear and should be ignored.
Those were your words on several posts on different sites here lately. You're obviously a very intelligent man and offer good lessons most of the time and I for at least one, appreciate your opinions most of the time. I just disagreed with you on the fear angle you were posting lately. I wasn't alone in that observation either, as you may have noticed.
Is it just me, or is vaudree hopelessly wacked-out on air freshner? His reading isn't making it. He keeps misattributing quotes to the wrong posters and misunderstanding the context of language.
speaking of which, PAUL,
my apologies. I thought you were saying that FEMA's 800+ prisons built in the last couple of years were a figment of a fearful mind! I see your point now. But I still think we should alert our countrymen that this is going on much as it did in 1930' Germany so they will no how late the hour really is.
PASTOR
or whoever you are, if a little free speech so deeply offends you, then you are not really a progressive after all. You are a troll trying to cast doubt on the process of democracy. Democracy holds that we don't put some "holier than thou" dork up on a pedestal and have him lecture us on what speech he finds acceptable.
That is not freedom. That is religious dogma. Realize where you are. You are not in church. You are in the town square.
Nobody said anything about you or your brother! We were talking about the notorious former FBI chief. For you warp this into a person attack means you are far too thin-skinnned to lead a congregation, much less converse effectively with men and women of enlightenment.
I agree. You're at the wrong site. Try: www.tablemanners.com___or www.sundayserman.org_____
This is not some polite social club at CD. The world is in peril from the poles melting and religion in government is what got us here so fast. Religion has a purpose, and I believe the most important right we have is freedom of it. But that includes your arch enemies the Muslims, the Hindus, the Satanists, the UFOers etc, which I'm not sure you have the character to acknowledge have the same rights as christians.
But if you are a man of substance, which you lead us to believe by being persecuted for speaking out against this evil administration, I encourage you to stick around. Many of your points were good, and the value of debate at CD is in the diversity of it's participants. You write very eloquently. (But to be admired by us will require that you recognize that suppression of other's free speech is intolerable.)
pacplyer
I read this site in the vain hope that I might find information useful in doing my part in preventing what I believe is the slow dissolution of the United States by destructive conservative policies. I seek to be informed and to dialogue with people of similar goals. Unfortunately, these discussions have become clogged with the chaff of personal insults and partisan diatribes. New information and ideas is rare and far between. A few weeks ago, I had to point out that Republican women should not be criticized on their appearance any more than Hillary Clinton is, now I am mocked for defending ugly White men and homosexuals. "Satire" that demeans the personal appearance and standing of people has become a substitute for constructive critique of policies. I will not sue, but I will do exactly what I do with FOX news, stop listening.
pacplyer: My father's generation was concerned about FEMA/Ollie North/Bush I/Reagan, etc. I remember hearing them talk about it 20-30 years ago. They were concerned enough to keep their mouths shut. And so the FEMA rumors accomplished exactly what they set out to do, a sort of virtual prison. The threat itself becamse sufficient to keep many people from vocalizing an opposition.
I harbor no fear, and have posted anti-establishment messages on the internet strictly under my real name out of principle for the past decade or so. If the rest of this country had a pair of brass balls, none of this would even be an issue.
Kem,
I'm sorry if my posts came off as trying to "shut down" the topic. I'm only hoping that we approach this topic with courage and reason.
Imagine yourself in Stalinist Russia -- early on -- and this was in the process of actually going on, or at the cusp of something quite terrible on the near horizon. What's the best response? #1 Be a good Russian and shut up -- whatever happens? #2 Organize a vocal resistance, armed if necessary? #3 Flee to greener pastures while the fleeing is good?
I sure don't know the right answer, but I'd like to rule out #1 off the bat -- since it's based on fear/cowardice. I'm concerned that fear-mongers dangle these issues out there with no solution, other than an implicit/implied, "Wow -- we better shut up!"
I've always felt it is the things we cherish, framed positively, (free speech, freedom of assembly, freedom to bear arms, freedom from unwarranted search, etc.) that should lead us forward -- not threats of the reverse. Most of the Bill of Rights is framed positively, not negatively. There's a key insight there.
stanwe55 says: So they had control without incarcerating the men. Shortly, after the election(May 1941) the men were then rounded up and incarcerated even though the US was still technically neutral.
That is consistent with what it says in Canada: A People's History. You've heard of the Ogdensburg Agreement, the Hyde Park Declaration, or the Permanent Joint Board on Defence? Maybe I haven't more than heard of them, but for them to be considered important enough to be mentioned in passing, someone knows a bit more about them than I do.
The United States remained neutral in the war but Roosevelt feared a British defeat. He wanted to secure his northern flank and aid the Allies (countries fighting Germany) while keeping the illusion of neutrality.
http://history.cbc.ca/history/?MIval=EpisContent.html&series_id=1&episode_id=14&chapter_id=2&page_id=1...
KEM, you put down a comment, I took a quick look at it and made a comment to it that I could not undo half an hour later when your "edit" had finally gone through. You would not have edited if you thought your original comment was clear and I would not have made the comment I did if the edit had gone through. I thought we were both past that.
I am fine if I stay away from air freshioner and if I don't I have to sleep off a hangover - no more no less than that. If that stuff was banned I would be perfectly fine.
Re "fear mongering"
KEM, I took it the other way - like with 9-11 and the Homeland Security colour codes. I thought he was dissing the pro-Reagan/Hoover crowd for their use of fear as a weapon to control.
The idea that pointing out past human rights violations would be considered "fear mongering" was something that would never occur to me.
Never knew who did it in the US, but what happened to the Japanese was openly the work of the Canadian Government:
With news of the attack on the American naval base at Hawaii on December 7, 1941, years of smoldering fear and resentment against Japanese Canadians exploded into panic and anger in British Columbia.
At the time there were about 22,000 Japanese Canadians in British Columbia, some descendants of the first immigrants who sought work in Canada in the late 1800s. From the beginning, these newcomers had been subject to intense discrimination by a largely white Canadian society.
http://history.cbc.ca/history/?MIval=EpisContent.html&series_id=1&episode_id=14&chapter_id=3&page_id=3...
And I doubt that this little tidbit is contained in American History:
The Civil War was the most destructive conflict the world had ever seen. It pitted the northern states, the Union, against the slave-owning south, the Confederacy. The war resulted in 618,000 deaths - 258,000 Confederate, 360,000 Union - more than the number of Americans who died in both world wars and Vietnam combined.
http://history.cbc.ca/history/?MIval=EpContent.html&series_id=1&episode_id=8&chapter_id=1&page_id=7&la...
TonyVodvarka J. Edgar's constant surveillance of Albert Einstein,
The files reveal that for five years J Edgar Hoover tried, and failed, to link Einstein to a Soviet espionage ring.
Seems as if a person doesn't have secrets that Hoover would try to manufacture them. If he tried to do this to Albert, he tried to do this to others.
Strange that many of the tactics listed, such as sorting through garbage, the paparazzi does to celebrities. Will look through the link a bit more.
pacplyer - nobody said anything about suing anybody! Pastor just doesn't want his brother to be murdered and complaining about certain comments makes him that he can prevent his brother's death. None of us want our siblings to die - the vast majority of the time. ;)
In the US, the American comics tend to mainly make fun of those they hate. You have comics like Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter and those stand-up televangelists making fun of the moderate right (such as the Dems) and Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert making fun of the far right (ie the Repugs and Ann Coulter).
pacplyer
One thing you should know is that the European American internees were treated well and there was no torture, not like in Gitmo. In addition to the civilians interned, America treated it's POW's very well (that is up until VE day). Obviously,they hoped for similar treatment for America's POW's. After VE day things changed a bit, because there were no longer any consequences for American POW's. James Bacque in his book "Other Losses" details Allied treatment of POW's after VE day (other books have as well). Certainly, not stuff you learn in history class. Honestly, the more I know, I wish I didn't. No doubt, ignorance is bliss.
The most difficult aspect of internment, according to former victims, is they would wake up in the middle of the night and wonder if the war would ever end and if their whole life was destined to be behind barbed wire. Most said, the boredom day after day was unbearable. I guess the old adage runs true "a gilded cage is still a cage." Honestly, I can not imagine how desparate one must feel when you have the full force of the American government against you and you have absolutely no legal rights,or process for recourse. Certainly, you can understand why their abject despair, week after week, leads many to suicide, not unlike the situation in Gitmo.
In many ways my father's situation was better than the legal residents and US citizens who were interned. They they were picked off one by one, sometimes at their workplace and even at high schools, for weeks their families didn't know what happened to them. Most were embarassed and ashamed that they were being arrested for disloyalty to America. My father was one of 400+ civilian seaman rounded up because of his occupation and ethnicity. His entire peer group was rounded up by the FBI in the middle of the night and sent to Ellis Island and then by rail to North Dakota.
Just recently, I figured out why they were not interned immediately in 1939, when they were removed from their ships.(the seaman have always pondered this fact) In Canada, Britain and Australia the civilian seaman were interned in 1939 when they were removed from their ships because they were at war. In the US we were still neutral and only 3% of the public approved of US involvement in Europe's war. 1940 was an election year, so interning the seaman could have influenced the election. Instead of interning the men they confiscated their passports to maintain control without incarcerating the men. Shortly, after the election of 1940 (in May 1941) the men were then rounded up and incarcerated, even though the US was still technically neutral. It all is pretty fascinating, I know I should write a book becauce the story is far better than a mystery novel and it is fact not fiction. However, since Americans don't read perhaps it wouldn't be worth the effort.
One thing that I have found infuriating is that I have had an easier time getting documents out of the English and German archives than our own National Archives. Just recently, after two years I received a letter asking if I still wanted to hold my appeal for information open. Of course, I said yes but who knows if I will ever get the information requested.
The only sue I like Is Siouxrose Pac.. Well, I do like chop suey and sue flay.
stanwe55,
Great posts. I was not aware of the European internment by the FBI of U.S. citizens. Shocking!
That was never a part of the U.S. history I was taught. Thank you for enlightening me.
I agree also that the term "fear mongering" is inappropriately applied here by Paul.
Paul, I think you need to unplug for a while. Posters are discussing legitimate concerns based on actual events from our past, combined with current trends in legislation and apparent desire on the part of the office of the VP for world war.
It needs to be discussed.
That's what I think.
The Nazis were defeated so we could experience this?
It was Hoover himself who was the biggest threat to liberty and freedom based on his actions against the Constititution.
Today's Progressive Review, www.prorev.com' has a BBC article from 2002 reporting J. Edgar's constant surveillance of Albert Einstein, his opposition to his emigration and citizenship and his certain inclusion in that list of those to be rounded up.
KEM PATRICK:
No, "Pastor" cannot sue you because that is not his real name and a person (you) can't slander or libel an anonymous alias. He would have to show damages also, which he cannot do since nobody knows who his is.
On the other hand, you could sue neocon attackers if KEM PATRICK is your real name and they do something in the real world or print falsehood here about you and it causes damages to you, but I wouldn't advise it.
Cheers good buddy,
pac
As Jim Glover mentions above, I can confirm from family and personal experience that a normal tactic of harrassment by the FBI was to visit one's neighbors and place of work and enquire if there wasn't something peculiar about you. This was at a time when one of the most popular and long-running adventure programs on prime time radio and then television was, "I was a Communist for the FBI", a drama that glorified paid police informants within CPUSA. This intimidating tactic was used in the red scare fifties and the COINTELPRO sixties.
In that Lincoln quote, he was talking about our government being ruled by big corporations and a few of the very rich. __ History does repeat, only now the President is in the pocket of the corporations and the few who make the rules and control not only the elections, but who the front runners are. They own the press and the media.
BTW. That's not fear Paul, ___ that's how it is.
Sorry VAUDREE. ___ have you had your sugar checked? Seriously.
No, I didn't know about the 15 minute delay in the edit. Thank you for informing me. I do know the edit feature sometimes does not work.
STANWEE 55, in spite of Paul's FEAR comments of some who wish to post comments abut issues such as you so appropriately brought up, don't worry about him or anyone else thinking yu are a fear mongerer.
All of a sudden Paul is on a 'fear kick' here and on other threads. If someone gives an opinion about something our governmet is now doing to violate our rights and perhaps even jail thousands of innocent Americans, he says that's fear mongering and they should be ignored ____ Whatever, I respectfully and un-fearfully, disagree with him.
____
I guess the man who wrote this would fit into Pauls's fright book and be one to ignore.
"I see in the near future a crisis approaching, that 'unnerves me' and causes me to TREMBLE for the safety of MY country." ~~~Abraham Lincoln ~~~
I think the British Royal Family having German ancestry did keep German Canadians out of camps but, from all accounts that I know of, they were heavily discriminated against. As far as German POWs, many of them were treated well enough that they chose to stay in Canada.
In the old days, it was felt that one should forget the past and get on with life. No one talked about anything - except with someone who was there too and over a lot of drinks to numb the pain. There may have been a lingering fear of the detained throughout history that if one were to kick up a fuss over what happened that the family could be harmed. Many times people only choose to speak out when they see the same thing happening to different groups of individuals.
"What's too painful to remember / We simply choose to forget" - Barbara Streisand.
stanwe55 says: The Palmer raids and WWII selective internment were the precursor to Gitmo and rendition no doubt.
And what was the precursor to the Palmer raids? History is repetitive - it always has been. The "glorious nation" stuff one learns in school has been sanitized to the point of being boring.
Japan still won't admit to the use of "Comfort Women" - because it presents them in a bad light. Think how much the US still won't admit to.
One sees movies such as Kindergarten Cop and Adam Sandler's Big Daddy and wonder if it was an exaggeration of the way Americans learn history.
xxxxxxxxxx
With the little I know of Prescott Bush, there may have been the thing where some German Americans were jailed to protect the secrets of other German Americans.
I hope no one thought I was fear mongering regarding my comments about WWII European American internment, certainly that was not my intent. My father was interned at Ft. Lincoln, North Dakota for several years. He was a German merchant seaman who worked for an American Company, Standard Oil, in 1939. He was removed from his ship in 1939 and his passport was held by the Standard Oil company on orders of the Department of Justice. With no passports the men could not leave NYC. Many applied for "voluntary departure" status from the INS and were actually granted the status. But the were unable to excercise the privelige because they could not get their passports. According to the Geneva conventions and international law the civilian seaman should have been repatriated. He was not incarcerated in an internment camp until May 7, 1941, seven months before Pearl Harbor and the US declaration of war. The seaman were similar to the Gitmo detainees, no habeas corpus, kangaroo hearings and incarceration for the duration. The German embassy was their only legal recourse and it was closed in June of 1941, so they were in legal limbo.
The merchant civilian seaman were the first to be incarcerated in internment camps. Then came US citizens and legal residents who were put on the FBI custodial index. The FBI custodial index was later declared bogus by the Attorney General and Hoover himself because it was so inacurate.
TonyVodvarka says: Perhaps we're being acclimated to the idea that periodic roundups and detention camps are as American as apple pie, ask Native Americans. He may be onto something with this statement. Also, the comments about phase 1 and phase 2 of Hoover's mass jailings has some merit.
Honestly, after studying everything I can read on this subject and obtaining FOI files I must conclude the government really never viewed these internees as dangerous it was to control the populace through fear and to quiet political dissenters. How else would you explain that my father after almost 3 years of internment was paroled to first to a farm family and then to a plumber's family where he resided in the families homes and would even babysit their children. Then he was recruited into the US military when they promised him citzenship. Perhaps, even more interesting they recruited him into military intelligence training at Camp Ritchie.
Although, I know a lot about WWII selective internment there is so much I don't know but would like to know. All I can say I just find it very interesting that the NY Times is willing to report about a PROPOSED program of mass jailings but will not write about the actual program of mass arrests. Certainly, main stream media has better access to information than a minor citizen like myself.
Since my father died in 1957 I knew nothing of this history until Guantanamo. I was outraged by Guantanamo and the fear mongering and wondered how my father's status differed from the Gitmo detainees. The more I learned the more fascinated I became regarding the chain of events. The Palmer raids and WWII selective internment were the precursor to Gitmo and rendition no doubt.
Getting back to the article, my friend Andrea read it and said:
"Isn't it interesting that now they are uncovering this
information about Hoover having this list of
communists and others. It was in about 1950. They
were going to peoples homes and spying and talking to
neighbors (and probably children) about people who
were communists. You were about 8 years old then.
Very interesting.
****
to Andrea:
"Oh Yes they came to my house a couple times and told my friends that we were Commies too.
They even stopped me to ask questions about my Dad on my way home from School.. Two men in Trench coats.
That was around the same time that two kids jumped me in the School yard and I kicked both their asses."
-----------
So I grew up with the threats and constant surveillace that most folks in America are now just getting aware of and now targeted at all of us all more than ever. Maybe not as bad as Mass Jailings but Sis Cunningham and Gordon Friesen, Publishers of Broadside, who were active in the 20's and 30's untill they died in the 90's told me that millions of Progressive folks were ruined by the Red Scares and the progressives were probably hurt as much or even more than Communists... The masses were the threat and the fear of mass jailings were more effective in putting us where we are today then the actual carrying out of the 50's Plan.
Fear is what keeps us Down more than anything!
That is my experience anyway.
Dear stanwe55, Thanks for the interesting comment. I would add to your history of extra-consitiutional roundups, the Palmer Raids of 1920. Convinced that a revolution was about to take place, Wilson's attorney general A Mitchell Palmer ordered the siezure of more than 10,000 supposed anarchists and reds, which was managed by the young J. Edgar. More than 500 were eventually "exiled" to the Soviet Union. Why did the NYT report on this, indeed. Perhaps we're being acclimated to the idea that periodic roundups and detention camps are as American as apple pie, ask Native Americans. Back in the early sixties, doing some service at Camp Kilmer, New Jersey, I became aware that this mostly deserted WWII facility was "mothballed" as one of the designated detention camps of that era.
KEM, I gave yesterday's edition between passing out and passing out - with no alcohol consumed. Personally, whether in context or out, I think your comment about making fun of one's leaders is spot on - and the cornerstone of democracy.
I think that you meant to say of Pastor that he SHOULD UNDERSTAND "the difference between bashing and humor." All I said is that intense fear makes one humourless - ie Americans after 9/11. And, you should know by now that when you edit that no one else sees the edit for 15 minutes!
You do know the story of James Loney and how his family and friends worked to get every article he ever wrote concerning gay rights off line before the kidnappers thought to look him up. And the picture shown in the media was cropped so as not to show his common-law husband (whom he met when he was sixteen) in the same picture. As a devout Catholic, Loney only wishes to get married in the Catholic church. I also mentioned Loney because, in belief and action, he is as opposite to Hoover as one can get.
Even Jonathon Swift's A Modest Proposal was - er - open to interpretation. Some figured that he was making fun of the English for their mistreatment of the Irish. Others figured that he was serious - because what he was proposing was not too far beyond what the English were already doing. Think of it, when people first started telling stories of people being cooked in ovens during WWII - some considered it an exaggeration based loosely on the story of Hansel and Gretel - so it works both ways.
Speaking of satire, have you heard Harland Colt's Time To Lick My Wound yet?
http://www.cbc.ca/22minutes/22_single_player.html?archive/2006-2007/nov_21/harland_colt
And "Leave it to Stever" - a "Leave it to Beaver" spoof of Stephen Harper as a kid (to put the former in perspective):
http://www.cbc.ca/22minutes/22_single_player.html?archive/2006-2007/oct_3/stever
I wonder if the former will offend the - er - RIGHT people.
stanwe55 says: Does the NY Times believe the public is more interested in Hoover's PROPOSED plans to intern American citizens than the actual reality of interning 15,000 European American citizens and legal residents that occurred during WWII?
You mean that what he was planning to do targeted more groups than those plans which were carried out? It was a bad time to be a racist right after WWII because the majority was so shocked at what Hitler did. We all know that Hitler got many of his ideas (and much of his propaganda) from the United States. We all know that interning Japanese Canadians was a popular move which increased PM MacKenzie King's personal popularity and that of his party (and I presume the same was true concerning Japanese Americans).
stanwe55 says: The mechanics of Hoover's proposed plan during the cold war was identical to the actual plan that was carried out on European Americans, labor leaders, communists and so called radicals just a decade earlier.
Actually, it is more useful to look at each as part I and part II of the same plan. And then they came for me ...
stanwe55 says: For over 60 years, internees, family, friends and constitutional defenders, have pushed for a congressional examination of "selective internment" policies used against mostly innocent citizens and immigrants during WWII. But how do you influence legislators to investigate a program cloaked in secrecy, when there are only a few hundred victims alive and they are dispersed across political districts throughout the US?
Canada has always had the NDP to do this - though speaking out against the practice at the time was quite unpopular. What you do is document the personal stories and compile them. Once you do that, you got a model on which to attach any new information you uncover.
stanwe55 says: Even with actual FBI records obtained through FOI requests we can not get the media to expose this story.
On The Hour, Nader admitted that when no American network would cover the story, he turned to the CBC and they let him go on TV and talk about what was happening concerning cars - and Detroit gets the CBC channel. It is not like the Americans don't speak english.
Paul Bramscher says: Watch the fear thing — it's always been the mark of scoundrels. People may be motivated out of fear, but only irrationally so.
Sure - but the fear is humourless and the hate isn't humourless in the US. Feeds the idea that humour (which makes fear more manageable) is an inappropriate response.
Got the Shock Doctrine for Christmas.
My cousin's German grandmother hid people from the Nazi's - he wrote about it in the Globe and Mail after his grandmother died. I think is German grandfather fought under Hitler - but there wasn't much choice at the time since those who stood up against Hitler tended to disappear.
Your stuff involves getting the stories before everyone dies. And eventually getting the official apology and the information into the American history books and school ciriculum.
vaudree,
Watch the fear thing -- it's always been the mark of scoundrels. People may be motivated out of fear, but only irrationally so. There's a reason that Bush & Co. and their predecessors over the centuries lean on the polar opposites of the so-called Platonic virtues. Being an irrational/emotional response as a first punch, it's always followed by a left uppercut with some sort of maintenance ideology -- something to maintain that fear for the long-run. A fearful populace is a controlled populace, there can be absolutely no doubt about this. The Middle Ages, and far too many European examples since, demonstrate this.
It all distills down to fight or flight, but both ways are based on -- and motivated by -- courage and calculated/sensible reason.
Note that I'm not addressing whether the FEMA camps, mass jailings, etc. were realistic or not. That's a matter of interpretation at this point. But I don't think very highly of fear mongers, whether on the "right" or on the "left". Everyone's trying to cash in on fear.
It is more than fascinating that the NY Times chose to write about Hoover's plan for mass jailing in 1950 but refuses to write about the actual execution of Hoover's mass jailing in 1941 isn't? Does the NY Times believe the public is more interested in Hoover's PROPOSED plans to intern American citizens than the actual reality of interning 15,000 European American citizens and legal residents that occurred during WWII? The mechanics of Hoover's proposed plan during the cold war was identical to the actual plan that was carried out on European Americans, labor leaders, communists and so called radicals just a decade earlier. A custodial index was compiled as early as 1936 to supposedly "apprehend all individuals potentially dangerous" to national security. The arrests were carried out all over the country under "a master warrant attached to a list of names" provided by the bureau. There were over 50 Department of Justice internment camps during WWII. These camps are different than the relocation camps where Japanese Americans were incarcerated.
For over 60 years, internees, family, friends and constitutional defenders, have pushed for a congressional examination of "selective internment" policies used against mostly innocent citizens and immigrants during WWII. But how do you influence legislators to investigate a program cloaked in secrecy, when there are only a few hundred victims alive and they are dispersed across political districts throughout the US? Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion that both political parties are complicit in the cover up of WWII "selective" internment. Honestly, neither party wants to expose this chapter of history, which is the really scary part. That coupled with total media silence demonstrates there is a lot to hide from the public. Ask the question, why is the NY Times more interested in writing about a plan not executed than one that was?
Even with actual FBI records obtained through FOI requests we can not get the media to expose this story. Unfortunately,without exposure we do not have the political clout to influence legislators to establish a commission to investigate this chapter of American history. Why is this 60 year old history important? Rendition, black sites,Guantanamo are all modeled after earlier programs but modified to become more secretive, these programs are not designed for public safety but for control of populations.
For more information on European American internment during WWII visit the following websites:
www.foitimes.com
www.gaic.info
www.traces.org
VAUDREE SAYS.___ VAUDREE SAYS ___ VAUDREE SAYS.
Hey Vaudree, please be a bit more careful about what you write KEM says, because I am not the one who said the words you attributed to me.
Obviously as you stated, you must still be a bit groggy and you always are. You argue constantly with others here, re-write what they 'SAID', take portions of their posts out of context, in an attempt to show others they are wrong. Then you give your opinions, which often are written in such a manner that no one can understand what the hell you are babbling about. You wrote as if I have aproblem with Gay people and I don't, and have explanied that to another silly bloggger. Take your continual nonsense and shove it.
~~ An essay of SATIRE,__or SARCASM, by Dresden.
"Satire has always shone among the best, and is the boldest way, if not the best, to tell men freely of their foulest thoughts. To laugh at their vain deeds and vainer thoughts."
Thomas Paine, who penned Common Sense, used satire to great effect, as did Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincloln, Jay Leno, etc, etc.
I always enjoy the way 'The Clique" ignores important friggin' issues as suspension of the Posse Comitatus Act, thanks to the John Warner Defense Act of 2007, which would indeed provide a way for bush to declare Marshall Law.
Read the damn issues, and stop whining 'Is Google a source, blsh, blah', sorry I am not part of the 'gang', but research this. If you really want to see what is going to happen.
Everyone bare with me, one can't get through Christmas day without at least some small exposure to air freshioner and I still feel a bit groggy).
Jim Glover, speaking of sealed records, you heard of the David Ridgen documentary "Mississippi Cold Case?" - bits and pieces of the information were scattered all over the country. Think of it as 50 copies of something and each person who has a copy only destroying parts of it. It is getting all the information together so you can figure out what it all means that is important.
Whatever still exists does become declassified after a certain point automatically. Originally, Ridgen and Thomas James Moore were just looking for information to shed a bit more light on the issue and they ended up with a conviction. I would go to cbc.ca/sunday or cbc.ca/fifth and present what you have as a story idea - Ridgen works for the former and the latter are on speaking terms with Schreiber. Remember the way Washington operates - they would rather discredit you than kill you - turn you into a person no one would listen to.
Wikipedia says Ray later fired Foreman as his attorney (from then on derisively calling him "Percy Fourflusher") claiming that a man he met in Montreal, Canada, using the alias "Raoul" had been deeply involved, as was his brother Johnny, but not himself, further asserting that although he didn't "personally shoot Dr. King," he may have been "partially responsible without knowing it," hinting at a conspiracy.
There are a few crime families in Montreal, have you seen "Crime Pays" - just to see if any of the family names seem familiar (not the main one but who they took over from):
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/crimepays/index.html
Jim Glover says: Now Hoover and Dulles had to know that I was on the bus in Texas and saw a lot and they knew that Jean, who was separated from me at certain critical times could not be trusted because we were married. So pickin James Earl Ray as the patsy helps keep the cover-up of JFK too.
They may not know how many pieces you put together and odds and ends don't amount to much. So you say that you have inside information concerning Ray - who, as a habitual criminal, would have been perfect. There was no conspiracy with James Patrick Driskell, but because of his criminal past, he seemed the "obvious" suspect when his best friend was murdered - and now, it seems, he never did it. And, though he may be dead before he is cleared, the same seems to be true for Erin Michael Walsh.
Jim Glover says: Before Phil died he told me that he was working with an up and coming Air Force General….one of the "Good Guys", but I was told by other men that Kissinger was the paymaster.
There have been nasty rumours concerning Kissinger in that some consider him guilty of war crimes. I would recommend searching for "kissinger" under the rabble.ca archive search (sometime if clicking on place for article doesn't work, click in another place for it).
Paul Bramscher says: I don't mean to deny the possibility that such plans exist. I know that there were similar rumors back in the 80's circulating that Ollie North, King George I, and Reagan were going to use FEMA powers to install martial law, etc.
So when it doesn't happen, it was only a rumour rather than a plan thwarted/delayed? The right doesn't get everything on their wish list all the time or your country (and ours) would be in even worse shape. No one ever gets everything they want for Christmas! We can't completely separate the reign of Reagan and King George I since King George was Vice President under Reagan's reign.
In the eulogy Mulroney gave at Reagan's funeral, he credited Reagan for the reunification of Germany. Helmut Kohl, who was chancellor of Germany at the time was also credited with the reunification of Germany - coincidence? Helmut Kohl (leader of the CDU) was involved in the "CDU contributions scandal" where his party received illegal donations/kick backs big time - enough to make Cheney and Haliburtion look like innocent mischief by comparison.
Paul Bramscher says: But it turned out in New Orleans that FEMA was so goddamned incompetent that it couldn't rescue a single city
Couldn't or didn't want to? The attempt originally was to blame it on the mayor and, only later did FEMA get blamed for anything. There were buses but they were parked in the wrong area and a lot of misinformation abound. Also, why did the US keep refusing help from neighbouring countries until it was too late for them to be able to do much? No one asks that. It takes a couple days to get there and you delay giving permission to enter the US to help it costs many lives. The Mayor was asking for help, the Governor was asking for help but neither could get permission for the help many countries were offering.
Finally got Klein's book, as soon as I perk up enough so that my reading level improves enough, I am going to start reading it.
Paul Bramscher says: They are sworn to protect the US from threats both domestic and foreign. They exist to defend the Bill of Rights.
Paul Bramscher says: Ergo the presumed trade off between defending rights and protecting America. Does it say protecting "America" or protecting "Americans" - since the two are not completely the same. If it is the former, it matters who they define "Amercia."
pastor says: I regard this issue as important because this type of caricature demeans and places homosexuals like my brother at very real risk for their lives / The sexual lampooning is not funny nor helpful in building momentum to what we all really agree on.
Not all gays are of the log cabin variety either - any of you heard of El-Farouk Khaki or salaam? You all know about James Loney who was kidnapped the same time as Tom Fox was and the secret he had to keep hidden until his release. I would look him up if I were you. Hoover's sexual orientation is not important but the possibility that he had the power to keep it out of the media might be important if it gives insight to how Hoover operated - how he managed to both keep his own secrets out of public scrutiny and uncover the secrets of others. Same with Kennedy and his many affairs - I am sure that they were common enough knowledge by people who would prefer to maintain both life and occupation. Loney is for KEM and Khaki is for the brother.
pastor says It is clear that the federal government is already working to inhibit political organization upon the left to the point that they are seeking authority to use the draconian measures that Hoover and McCarthy had used in the past.
I think that even McCarthy knew that most of the people he was accusing of being "commies" weren't. It was basically a smoke screen to get rid of those who, if left alone, could bring embarrassing questions into the limelight. You are right, it is all about discrediting.
KEM PATRICK says: A person with your great wit understands the difference between bashing and humor
I think fear for his brother's life may make the situation a bit less humourous for him. Not like me and my brother. My brother was making obnoxious comments to me all day so when his wife said in reference to desert "Chocolate is better than sex" I said to her "considering that you are with my brother, I believe you." You notice that Canada started making fun of America's post 9-11 "Homeland Security" way before Americans felt comfortable with such things being made fun of.
KEM PATRICK says: Make fun of your leaders. Otherwise they see themselves as kings.
Of course! But Canadian comics make fun of our leaders for being homophobes. You do know the abbreviation or homogenized milk? Let's just say that Stockwell day prefers being chocolate milked that having this type of milk thrown at him.
Can Pastor sue us?
Make fun of your leaders. Otherwise they see themselves as kings.
The early congress got into a dispute with the Chair about what to call the new leader of the United States. Most wanted a simple name like president, prime minister and so forth. The Chair of the Senate, John Adams, continued against the majority arguing for days without end that Washington should be refered to as "His Excellency." In an unfair retort against his portly figure, many senators began referring to Adams as "His Rotundness."
Poking fun at public figures is a constitutionally protected right. Doing this to an individual citizen, if not true, is slander (oral) or libel (written.) You are allowed to make commentary about anybody as long as you make it clear that it is only your opinion.
This is my understanding of the law.
The above is, as all my posts are, just my opinion only.
Happy New Year,
pac "free speech" plyer
Great post KEM.
A person with your great wit understands the difference between bashing and humor (although I can't hold a candle to yours and my satire is sometimes misinterpreted, as above.) For the record: I really like some gays. Especially asians. They are kind, gentle, non-threatening males here who are genuinely interested in old guys like me but will not put their hand on your shoulder unless they sense you are not threatened by them doing it. I am married and have no interest in relationships with them: but I am friends with a number of them. Live and let live. Some are great looking too. But beauty is relative, and compared to Hoover, everybody was good looking! (it's fine to make fun of public figures, fairly or unfairly: it's an American tradition - those who have read American political History know this.)
I feel the best way to deal with the paranoia of these gov turds who keep passing anti-free speech legislation is just for all of us to ignore these measures since they're illegal and unconstitutional anyway. Let's continue to talk about whatever the helll we want to; just like we all copied VHS tapes despite the FBI warning of going to jail if we dared to make a duplicate of our own property, or if we dared to give or sell our own property to someone else. They can't put everyone in jail. So be defiant. Be Loud.
I feel that all options should be discussed and on the table, including: revolution. I am not advocating revolution because I think it has a snowflakes chance in helll of success; however, the mere act of discussing how our founding fathers dealt with tyranny should be a warning sign to our "leaders" that this population will not be passive forever.
The Neocon model of government worked to build an American Empire. It cannot though, by it's own predatory market forces, provide a solution to the grave worldwide thermal runaway that is now in progress.
That's what I think.
PASTOR WROTE "The fact that you may consider Hoover unattractive, or that he was a homosexual is bashing gays."
It is?? ___ Does your mind always work that way??
Hey flock preacher, I don't bash Gays, we had dinner with a couple of very good Gay friends last week. They're swell people, they just happen to be gay ladies who love one another and they also aren't ugly, in fact one of them, the one with the male hormones, could pose for a Playboy centerfold and she should. She's a standup 38DD and the rest fits her very nicely, has MMs legs.
They're very intelligent college professors and published authors and both possess a great sense of humor. I don't agree with their sexual preferences, but that's their business. __ Hoover on the other hand, whatever sexual preference he had, is an ugly prick and he couldn't help it. If he was a decent person, few would likely notice his ugliness. So commenting upon his warthog like appearance is not Gay bashing, it's Hoover bashing and he deserves it, __ dead or alive. Of course I will admit, it's safer to do so, now that he's dead.
Pastor,
I was trying to point out the irony that many voracious homophobs in government are themselves: Gay. Republican Pat Foley of FL , Republican Larry Craig of MI. - This is apparently also true of many gay-condemning priests of the intolerant Catholic church.
In retrospect, "homo" was a poor choice of wordage. It just kind of fit with "Hoover the Homo" the ultimate slap in the face of the probable father of Neoconservatism, which I chose to Lapoon. If I had to do it over again, I wouldn't have used that word.
Your opinion is fine. But I'm not some mindless member of your flock that you can reprimand. And it seems to me, from the tone of your post, that you are having a little trouble with this concept of free speech. Perhaps you should learn how to selectively read rather than trying to coerce others into posting what you want to see printed.
I recommend that you skip over my posts in the future if they so agitate you.
pacplyer
The fact that you may consider Hoover unattractive or that he was a homosexual is bashing gays when so many posters seem to imply that is justification for criticizing his policies and that homosexuals are necessarily ugly and therefore too desperate to date heterosexually. I personally think Hoover appears to be an average guy of early senior years, and I suspect that many of the men on this site will look no better when they are his age or older. I regard this issue as important because this type of caricature demeans and places homosexuals like my brother at very real risk for their lives and I don't mind in the least giving lectures on the subject to people.
The sexual lampooning is not funny nor helpful in building momentum to what we all really agree on. That being reversing the dangerous trend of our government to greater centralization of power and reduction of civil liberties.
It is clear that the federal government is already working to inhibit political organization upon the left to the point that they are seeking authority to use the draconian measures that Hoover and McCarthy had used in the past. They are already claiming that we are dangerously militant. How ironic is that! The charge might not be without some merit as individuals lose hope and seek means to counterbalance policies they cannot agree with and avoid repression that they cannot live with. I repeat that it is important that we organize to give people hope and demonstrate with our actions and intentions that we are not the ones resorting to violent means to assure our political success. This will discredit the right's claims and provide the escape valve that will eventually remove the right from power.
KEM PATRICK,
I don't mean to deny the possibility that such plans exist. I know that there were similar rumors back in the 80's circulating that Ollie North, King George I, and Reagan were going to use FEMA powers to install martial law, etc. But it turned out in New Orleans that FEMA was so goddamned incompetent that it couldn't rescue a single city let alone keep an entire nation -- with many wilderness and hard-to-reach areas -- under a solid state of martial law. I've seen a lot of this country, and met many ordinary people on the street. Smart, stupid, the good, bad and ugly. We may not be a particularly bright people as a whole, but if push came to shove I don't think there's any possible way they could keep leadership of the US while jailing millions for thought crimes. Probably the military would cleave, and the majority would follow a batch of retired generals who resisted domestic government fascism. At least, outright fascism. So long as it's subtle, embedded and depersonified in the economy, or privatized they seem to tolerate it.
They are sworn to protect the US from threats both domestic and foreign. They exist to defend the Bill of Rights. And to obey the Commander in Chief. If the Commander in Chief gives them contradictory orders, they are in a paradox. I think that a series of small paradoxes are possible to maintain, but large ones will eventually cause something to snap -- and there will be a struggle for new leadership. Maybe there won't be anyone much better at the plate, but there will be a struggle nonethless. At least, this is the pattern with many other former European colonies across the world that are run by warlords, druglords, strongmen, organized crime, religious fundamentalists, dictators, etc.
The time to be afraid here, in this case, is when any of us are sitting in a cell and it's been a week or two since the last plate of gruel. Until then, our voice is our weapon -- and our right -- and we use it.
I, for one, am driven by progress. I'd like to see a dialing back of the wartime economy for the first time in almost a century, the return to the gold standard, Range/IRV, no electoral college, unicameral/parliamentary style government, immediate preservation of all remaining old growth areas, single-payer health care, paid paternal/maternal leave, 32-35 hour work-week, double the vacation time. I'm not driven to any of this by fear, but by understanding of how we're ruining great potential. The very wealthiest people, the sort that run our country, don't understand -- they've lived such a life of privilege that they can afford to piss away everything. Potential isn't something they're ever concerned about fulfilling. In a sense, they're extreme nihilists. I'm concerned about the future of the planet, the sort of world our children will live in.
If the concentration camps are true, then we should approach them pragmatically. Fight or flight, but not fear.
Why is speaking the truth bashing gays? Hoover was obviously an ugly man and he just also happened to be a homosexual. That's not bashing. We have several gay friends, they aren't ugly they're very nice people. Hoover was not nice, he held a position of power and was an evil blackmailer for one thing.
I thank pastor for trying to stop the ugly jokes and gay-bashing that I also consider offensive.
Twister, as I remember it, the Miami Herald printed the Rex 84 plans and THEN Jack Brooks brought it up at the Iran=Contra hearings. Sen Inoyue,D-Hawaii- who was also in the Watergate hearings, smashed his gavel down and proclaimed that there would be no talk of such things. Jack Brooks looked very surprised.
Then they adjourned for the weekend and on Monday it was all down the memory hole.
I agree with pastor that they will not do anything that they don't have to do. Why disturb the matrix? As long as the majority of Americans go to work, pay their taxes, buy stuff and pay no attention to the fascists, they will continue as usual.
There will be elections. Why not? They've got the voting machines, and it keeps the public distracted. Someone yesterday pointed out that voting in america is like the steering wheel that toddlers have in the back seat of their parents car. It keeps them occupied and they actually think they're having an effect. Why would the ruling class take away the plastic steering wheel, when even on Common Dreams we have posters whose only answer to our problems is: vote Democrat!!!
Why open the concentration camps unless there is unrest? That would disturb the matrix. Everything's fine. Pay no attention to the man tasering people behind the curtain.
There were plans in the 1980s and in the 1950s. But they weren't used, because the American sheep remained in line. I believe that there is no difference this time.
Well Vaudree,
It is gonna take a new president who wants to get to the bottom of all this to open up the records that are still sealed.
while I was investigating JFK case in LA and talking about what I saw here and there, the cousin of my wife and singing partner Jean Ray, Stephanie Ray, told me that they were related to James Earl Ray... he even resembles Jean's Dad and Uncle.
Jean Died from cancer last August but she told me before she died that if She knew about that she would hide under a rock ...so I told her that James was set up just like Oswald and Jean understood that was the point...to hide or keep quiet about what I was discovering about JFK. Family secrets are the easiest to Keep and Dulles and Hoover knew that better than I did while I was trying to figure it all out. I think James Earl Ray was the perfect patsy to keep Jean from talkin too much even though she didn't seem to be aware of the family connection until I told her.. but it was there and made me feel not to trust Jean because at the time I was told about the connection, I thought James Earl Ray might have even been the killer of King. I still don't know for sure if what Stephanie Ray told me was true or not but there were many times that the CIA tried to separate us and make us suspicious of each other.
Now Hoover and Dulles had to know that I was on the bus in Texas and saw a lot and they knew that Jean, who was separated from me at certain critical times could not be trusted because we were married. So pickin James Earl Ray as the patsy helps keep the cover-up of JFK too.
Now My friend Phil Ochs also was sent to Texas to observe the JFK operation and was in Dealy plaza being filmed most likely by a british cameraman.
Phil warned me that our lives would be in danger if we talked... I still talked but I was the loner on that.
When Phil got back from England he was told that the JFK case was like a traditional sacrifice of the best...
So Phil told me we got to do his song about it called Crucifixion which tells the story in poetic terms.. and when you know that Phil was there, it is really a revelation. Before Phil died he told me that he was working with an up and coming Air Force General....one of the "Good Guys", but I was told by other men that Kissinger was the paymaster.
Which made sense since this kind of all got started when we were in ROTC at Ohio State.
Phil told me in the late 60's that RFK was gonna get to the bottom of it.
We now know from the book "Brothers" that RFK knew that it was an inside job but didn't want to publicly say anything because it takes a president to get to the bottom of all this... The "Who shot John Game" is a CIA ploy to keep you all guessing while the Cover-up keeps us from knowing a lot more and the cover-up is the main crime anyway because that is the Secret Government's ticket to keep the War Machine the Boss... The cover up is the Coup and National Security is the excuse to keep it all hidden even if we already know the main points.
Nuclear War was the excuse for the cover-up of JFK and is the excuse for the Crimes of Little George too.
Nice racket EH?
So I believe that Phil told RFK that he was sent to Dealy because he sang Crucifixion for him two times. Once at his Senate office and again on an airliner... safer from Bugs.
One of our old friends from Ohio State is a Colonel in the Air Guard now who goes to Russia and China and who got in touch with me recently after all these years.... He is a Bush supporter but I am trying to turn him into a peace Activist and he is mellowing a bit for the better now.
Much of the whole truth might come out if we get a new president who wants us to know.... Clinton was afraid to know.
TonyVodvarka says: Dear vaudree, Although there were plenty of people who hated Hoover, no news organization, large of small, touched this subject until well after his death.
So you are saying is that Hoover had the power to squash anyone who looked too deep into what he was doing both inside and outside of the FBI? That it is not so much that he was gay but that he was not outed which is the important thing? The Mafia didn't seem too afraid of Hoover. Though, if the deal for pretending they did not exist extends not only in keeping their own mouths shut but also lending a bit of their muscle in keeping other mouths shut, seems like both would win.
Twister - you mean that system of pretty colours? Heard one joke that Canada was so boring that our color threat system consisted of five shades of grey.
For Christmas, Stan's colour coded alert system (third from bottom):
http://www.airfarce.com/video/040116.html
Vaudree said:
'"Martial Law" strikes me as a presumably emergency measure. How serious of a threat is needed for its implementation? Seems that there is a need to convince the population, initially, that they are, in fact, under threat.'
Well according to the Shrub we are constantly under threat by 'Al-Quaeda', Iran, and presumably by that guy in the red suit (Satan or Santa?).. what color threat level is it today? Orange? Yellow? Red?
I don't want there to be a threat that causes the imposition of martial law to come about, but what with agents provocateurs running rampant at protests, CIA funded 'counter terrorism' groups, and who knows what else, it's just a matter of picking someone to do the (inside) job.
Dear vaudree, Although there were plenty of people who hated Hoover, no news organization, large of small, touched this subject until well after his death. This was not any sort of closeted thing, Clyde was taken from boot camp and installed in Hoover's home, became a major FBI power, within two years. It certainly was common knowledge in government, one of the Nixon White House tapes catches Tricky Dick referring to him as, "that old cocks...er". Well-found legend has it that the "Mafia" had photos of him, dressed in a black chiffon dress, giving oral sex. The existence of this photo is supposed to explain Hoover's lifelong inability to recognize the existence of organized crime.
Jim Glover, did you see the video - "Death in Memphis: The Mysterious Assassination of Martin Luther King":
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id887.html
Seems as if there never was a thorough investigation in this.
I'll never forget that face, a cross of a Bull Dog and a Pig.
I saw him sitting next to my Childhood nemesis, Big George Bush, on the Shadow Chartered Bus the day JFK Was killed.
I found out from FBI memo that Bush called the FBI a few hours earlier... Nobody in the research community seems to know why he called but I think it is obvious that lead to their meeting on the Shadow Hollywood Hootenanny Bus with the 2nd Oswald in custody of two Dallas Cops.... That 2nd Oswald was also witnessed by the usher at the Texas Theater who saw the police take him out the side door while the shorter Oswald that Ruby killed was taken out the front door where he was filmed.
I told the FBI that I believe that the taller Oswald look-a-like was killed that night where those of us who stayed on the bus ended up at the Pines Motel, right next door to the fenced in National Guard Armory... Way out in the sticks near Point Blank Texas and the Sam Houston National Forest... I thought I would be killed too. It was a long night of celebration which ended after the Shotgun Blasts.
So far everyone including the researchers have ignored these facts.
Why you may ask? My educated guess it is called Cover-Up from the tippy top.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.. truth has its own power.
Do you ever wonder why Bush was never called before the Warren Commission about the 2 FBI memos about Bush and The JFK assassination?
Probably because his old friend Allen Dulles was in charge of the Secret stuff of the WC.
It's easy to make fun of Hoover's closeted gayness...but it is not only a cheap shot, it's homophobic and reduces Hoover to a caricature.
I'm sure that part of Hoover's extremism had to do with his repression of his sexual orientation, which really makes him a poster child for people being able to be open about sexuality.
But it is a mistake to make that the focus of one's criticism or analysis of Hoover.
I notice that the emphasis in this thread is on good old J. Edgar, certainly a guy to keep your eye on. However, most seem to miss loveable old Harry Truman, whose administration was the beginning of our national security state and the orginator of the left oppression which came to be known as "McCarthyism". Note above that, along with requiring all federal employees to swear a loyalty oath, he had his attorney general, Tom Clark, order the FBI to make up a blacklist for investigation and possible detention. Hoover was Truman's SOB as he had been for every president since the 1920 Palmer Raids and would be until (except his enemy, JFK) Johnson. Old Edgar was certainly every inch his own man. He met Clyde Tolson sometime in the thirties, an attractive young recruit in FBI boot camp, and within two years, dear Clyde was effectively second-in-command of the FBI and was openly living with him. They lived together until Edgar's death, more than thirty years, and in all that time, no one (no one) dared take pubic notice of what in those days might have been taken as a fairly contoversial relationship.
Ugliness and sexual preferences are not the issue here. This is the 22 Century and to each his own. What matters is whether this is just a story about Hoover's rantings and Truman's deaf ears or something more sinister. PM William Lyon Mackenzie King used to write love sonnets to his dog, attend seannces so that his dead mother could advise him on government policy, hated jews and thought (when he first met him in person) that Adolf Hilter had kind eyes. And, despite all this, he still led Canada into WWII before Roosevelt did the Americans. Is the Hoover thing fluff like Mackenzie King seeking advice from his dead mother and Hoover possibly being gay or serious stuff like Mackenzie Kings attitude towards Jews?
Hoover was around longer than Truman.
KEM PATRICK says: Personally, without feeling any fear or attempting to instill any fear, I'm writing about what Bush is doing what he has done, __ and there MAY be Fema prisons prepared for a lot of people. What people? If it is a lie, then why doesn't someone prove to all of us it is a lie?
It is hard to prove that something doesn't exist because just because you can't find something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. There are all sorts of empty buildings and empty fields that can be put to that use - and how ever so many property holdings/agreements with other countries that the US has all over the world. With WMD, the selling and buying of the raw materials have been monitored and, in many cases, special facilities have to be built - so it is much easier to prove that one is lying about that. But a building can be used for anything.
We do know the pattern, though. The first ones jailed throughout history are those people are least likely to care about or fight on behalf of.
Baby Bloc says: The military probably has plans for alien invasion from Mars, or all-out war on Canada.
Of course they did. And, if we know about this one, the Americans probably have a new one by now!
It was drawn up and approved by the War Department in 1930, then updated in 1934 and 1935. It was declassified in 1974 and the word "SECRET" crossed out with a heavy pencil.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/29/AR2005122901412.html
Baby Bloc says: I first heard about FEMA camps being proposed under Oliver North in the Iran Contra hearings in 1988 or so.
Did the idea begin with Oliver North or was he just trying to revive it? Seems with these new revelations concerning Hoover, that North may have be using some version of Hoover's original ideas. That date!
Baby Bloc says: I'm less hopeful now perhaps (though Reagan had the whole "global nuclear war" thing that kept my late teen years cheerful.) I do think it worth noting that a plan is not necessarily an intent.
So you mention Reagan AND the mid 80's - seems like there were a lot of right-winged governments in power at the time - and it has been established, already, that Schreiber helped Mulroney win the leadership of the Progressive Conservatives from the more moderate Joe Clark. Read the following?
But here's Karlheinz Schreiber: "The story is the payback for money to help someone come to power." Replete with details: How Franz Josef Strauss dispatched him from Germany to seed right-wingers around the world and eject fakes such as Joe Clark. And where they plotted: the Ritz! They sat around, "And everybody got something," once Brian took power. Not just contracts but free trade and the rest. We still live with the results. This isn't worth inquiring into? Watergate was just a piddling break-in.
http://rabble.ca/columnists_full.shtml?x=65642
And it goes to my main point concerning Hoover - how far does this thing go beyond Hoover and Truman? The right, if they act like they have on previous such occasions, will say that it doesn't - that there is nothing there. Every once in a while it may be the truth - but is it this time?
Maybe we are tired of your lectures PASTOR, if someone wished to interject what they consider to be humorous comments that's their business. Grow up and don't be so sure of yourself. For example, you are so certain Bush is incapable of inacting his presidential directives, that's pretty childish thinking. You mght read them and see how easy it would be for him to do so.
RE: FEMA camps
Although there is evidence of a non-official nature out there on the web via google, there isn't going to be much 'official' info about it. That is volatile info, but it's one of those open secrets.. if you want to find out about it you certainly can, you just have to do your homework.
Here's another excerpt from an article about it from globalresearch.ca:
'The Cheney/Bush administration has a plan which would accommodate the detention of large numbers of American citizens during times of emergency.
The plan is called REX 84, short for Readiness Exercise 1984. Through Rex-84 an undisclosed number of concentration camps were set in operation throughout the United States, for internment of dissidents and others potentially harmful to the state.
The Rex 84 Program was originally established on the reasoning that if a "mass exodus" of illegal aliens crossed the Mexican/US border, they would be quickly rounded up and detained in detention centers by FEMA.
Existence of the Rex 84 plan was first revealed during the Iran-Contra Hearings in 1987, and subsequently reported by the Miami Herald on July 5, 1987
" These camps are to be operated by FEMA should martial law need to be implemented in the United States and all it would take is a presidential signature on a proclamation and the attorney general's signature on a warrant to which a list of names is attached."
And there you have it ~ the real purpose of FEMA is to not only protect the government but to be its principal vehicle for martial law.'
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=ROL20060820&articleId=3010
I don't put anything past this Administration. There are already 800,000 names on "the List" as it is. There is enough capacity to put all of them and more in those camps. From what I've read many of the camps are also outfitted with ovens/creamatories. And considering the Bush family history of giving material support to the Nazis/Hitler I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of people either during this Administration or the next go "up in smoke". Hell I doubt there will be another administration because before the next election the power grab will become a power smash and grab.. Bush/Cheney do not want to lose a single iota of their chokehold on America and the world.
I'm sure if there is still such a thing as releasing de-classified documents in the future we'll be able to read all about REX-84 in about 50 years when it's too late to prosecute those who made it possible.
It says much about the United States of America that it permitted a malignant freak like J Edgar Hoover to head its top federal police agency for so many years, doesn't it?
I know that the hobnailed boots of the tyrants are marching, because I have been victim of their actions. I have been fired from two jobs due to the machinations of the Institute of Religion and Democracy. I know of others like me that have faced the reprisals of the Christian militant right. Some of the incidents have been documented on this very website.
What I am saying is that we must be careful not to raise spurious claims to inspire fear of activities that are not happening or might not happen. Even the documented activities are doubted by the common citizenry of the United States, because they believe everything FOX news tells them. Fear is the irrational motivator of the Right. PAUL BRAMSCHER is absolutely right on that point.
For example, I do not believe that Bush will suspend elections without a major event like 9/11 to justify it. The person Bush is not that ruthless and tyrannical. The political machine that supports Bush is that ruthless, but they recognize that it is easier to elect a similar president, than it is to stage a coupe, bloodless or not in the United States.
We ought to do everything within our power to make the Left seem powerful and reasonable. For example, let's elect Dennis Kucinich as president, or at least a Democrat. The Christian Right tells us that the Golden Compass should be boycotted. Let's make it the top grossing film of all history. I have already taken my family. Let's convince Congress to set a solid timeline for the removal of troops from Afghanistan and Iraq. We need to offer concrete reasonable courses of action for the citizenry of the United States to follow, and they will follow.
On a different note, I am getting tired of all the references to Hoover's attractiveness and possible homosexuality. I don't care if Hoover was ugly or handsome. That is beside the point of the discussion. My gay brother is better looking than most of the young men I know, and it is not for the lack of availibility of young women who want to date him that he is dating his equally handsome boyfriend. So grow up! And stick to the issues.
Habeas corpus suspended? Check!
Detention camp construction in progress? Check!
We're ready. J. Edgar would be proud to see his dream come to fruition. Except this time they'll have to round up significantly more than 12,000 of us.
It's like the old saying goes 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely'! At one time, J Edgar was one of the most powerful men in this country. Presidents didn't seem to think they could do without him or he blackmailed some of them into keeping him the head of the FBI. Which ever the case may be. But, we now know that he was just another right wing nut case. Who was corrupted by his own paranoid ideas. He was alive in the era when people saw a Communist behind every bush. Any behavior that was different from the norm was termed as Communist. As I remember it was a 'witch hunt' in the later 40's and early 50's. I was a teenager in the 50's. Many a persons good name was ruined by these 'fear mongers'. The same thing is going on today with the right wing pundits who try and foment hate for the Arab community (some of them conclude they are all terrorist's). They spend their time trying to terrorize people into giving up their rights for some semblance of security. It's the same old scam. Just a different group we are suppose to hate and fear. It's like FDR said in a speech. 'We have nothing to fear but fear itself'. It doesn't strange things to people when they are constantly being worked into a frenzy by the purveyors of hate and fear. People learn to recognize it for what it is and avoid it. Because that type of charlatan is always around trying to do his dirty deed.
"At Stanford and other leading research institutions, scientists are already scanning the brain—not just for defects, disease and injury, but for patterns of thought and emotion, meaningful precursors of behavior, and the mechanics of learning."
That's only the beginning. You can read the article at:
http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2004/janfeb/features/neuroethics.html#topofpage
Until the present age, Hoover was the closest this country has ever come to having its own home-grown Himmler or Beria.
Kem Patrick,
Google is not a source. What is the source of LindaS's claim that these camps have already been built, as well as the source of your further claims? I hope it isn't Alex Jones or other right-wing paranoiac.
I have been following the "FEMA Camp" meme since the 1990's militia movement trafficked in it. Now it's infected the liberals pretty deeply, and I'm sorry to see so many of you drink that Kool-Aid. But there is a cure, and that is demonstrable evidence, investigative journalism, solid sourcing, etcetera. Not Google. Cite me something useful. The good news is that if you're mistaken you have more time to act against the construction of such facilities. Don't just accept some sketchy guy's claim that it's too late.
In the meantime:
http://www.publiceye.org/liberty/fema/Fema_0.html
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=95756
and
AlexLawyer,
Are you saying that J. Edgar Hoover started out as a liberal during the Cold War who later became a conservative in reaction to the social upheavals of the 1960's? Do you even know what a neoconservative is?
That Hoover planned massive arrests is nothing surprising if one is aware of this slimebag's record. After all, he got "noticed" by organizing the Palmer Raids in 1919 (the biggest unconstitutional mass arrests in US history up to that time) while still a Justice Department bureaucrat. It is somewhat fortunate for history that Truman was occupying the White House at the time. Juvenal's saying, "Qui custodiet ipsos custodietes?" applies here.
I hope the State Dept. publishes some of the names on the list.
Einstein's file listed his possible development with mind-control robots.
There are no Jack Bauers. Great power with no accountability breeds gross incompetence. Maybe these guys need to read some Spiderman comics.
Hoover was the first neocon.
Sure have, gives prez the right to suspend the Posse Comitatus Act, ergo Marshall Law, therefore suspension of the Constitution.
Hmmmm, Pakistan was a dry run, you all knew that....
Did not read your link, know it from dealing with these bullshit bills we keep trying to stop and thr spineless, traitorous Congress slams them through, not even a voice vote for the vote call, hate 'em.
Here is a link to a timeline of assaults on the Bill of Rights since 2001. A friend sent this link to me and when I first read it, I was amazed. Is it just a coincidence that all of this happened since nine-eleven?
Also keep in mind that another nine-eleven whether carried out from within or not could trigger martial law.
You've heard of Patriot Acts 1 and 2 as well as Directive 51 and possibly the Homegrown Terrorism Act but have you heard of this one?
Enacted in October 2006.
John Warner Defense Authorization Act is passed. The act allows a president to declare a public emergency and station US military troops anywhere in America as well as take control of state based national guard units without consent of the governor or other local authorities. The law authorizes presidential deployment of US troops to round-up and detain "potential terrorists", "illegal aliens" and "disorderly" citizenry.
http://mondoglobo.ning.com:80/group/questionauthority/forum/topic/show?id=1509099%3ATopic%3A2937
Interesting that the mainstream media doesn't discuss any of this.
Hey CoCo, if he were a female with that face, it would bother me to wake up and see it in my bed. Of course I never go to bed with boys.
Have a great Holiday kid.
Forget about what the FBI was doing 60 yrs ago. Talk about what the FBI is doing now. Google:
biometrics & FBI
WHATFOOLS -- I'm LOL for your logic, and love it so. We really need another 20-60 million thinking just like this, how big is your gene pool?
"The Constitution says habeas corpus shall not be suspended unless when in cases of rebellion…"
The Bushites always get everything bass ackward.
Now that habeas corpus has been suspended every American citizen has the constitutional right and duty to take part in the rebellion.
You go dude(det?), I'd like to join the parade and see more of the show.
What a mean looking, fascist SOB. These thugs seem to think they're the world's rulers. They're still in charge of our government, unfortunately.
KEM PATRICK
well, see, if you are a person of persuasion of the same sex, as it were, you wouldn't be bothered by the face. you'd be just glad they were of the same persuasion. (in those days, anyway)
MARYANNSALO
this article was published on 'yahoo' yesterday.
Just a historic point... Ever notice how all the power people who cloak themselves in the "true patriot" garb and jabber really have subversive intent -- if not outright resentment of American ideals -- particularly what used to be civil liberties? It's true -- partriotism is the last resort of societal scoundrels. Hoover was a sicko and would certainly be an everyday player in Bush World. The current White House would be a place he could truly call "home."
Because there is only one Keith Olberman.
Why does it take so long to find out things like this?
Fascists (of whatever nationality) are always ready to suspend freedom of the people for their own agenda; that's who they are.
If it has been suspended, why are prisoners held in prisons, still not being charged with a crime.
I think you got me 'bass ackward', whatfools, if you think I'm a Bushite. Did you read past the first couple lines? And I believe habeas corpus has been un-suspended for the time being anyway. But don't hold your breath on that one.
"The Constitution says habeas corpus shall not be suspended unless when in cases of rebellion…"
The Bushites always get everything bass ackward. Now that habeas corpus has been suspended every American citizen has the constitutional right and duty to take part in the rebellion.
Google Fema prisons TBR. You can also read the presidential direcitves there that Bush has signed into law.
One problem, there are few others to confirm how accurate the articles are. However, if you wish to take the time to visit some of the over 800 prepared prison sites listed, you may discover that indeed they do exist. Some have huge crematoriums, able to 'process' up to 10,000 inmates a day.
"The Constitution says habeas corpus shall not be suspended unless when in cases of rebellion..."
That pretty much says it all. No matter how corrupt, criminal or terrorist the government becomes, we have no right to rebel against them. Wasn't this nation formed from rebellion in the first place? The comments about our current political despots mirroring the tactics of Hoover are right on the money. More and more I believe they do 'have something' on the Dems be it coercion, bribes, extortion or threats. I'm sure Pelosi and Reid understand very well what happened to Paul Wellstone or that the only people to receive anthrax letters were Dems opposed to the Patriot Act. The powers that be have made it quite clear they no compunction about destroying anyone who seriously interferes with their plans for a one world government. Just look at what CFR President Richard Haass has to say (and who its members are):
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9903/sovereignty_and_globalisation.html
Or listen to what the late Aaron Russo learned from Nick Rockefeller:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/290107rockefellergoal.htm
LindaS,
What is the source for your camp claim? Last I heard, KBR was awarded a contract to be ready to build detention camps for undocumented immigrants when they were told to build them. Are you saying they've been told to build them already? And did you know that KBR is no longer part of Halliburton?
Sources, please.
Problem is, it doesn't surprise us.
vaudree
-One needs a crisis to "justify" these things. The Cold War was a manufactured crisis.
---------IMO, its about mind sets. It might sound cruel to some, but maybe it could inspire us to see problems that arose as unavoidable, accept it as plainly as we will get thristy everyday. No one can make perfect decisions on everything every time, and there are plenty who make HUGE mistakes and later realized it. But this is not to say these kind of things happening is okay. Its about what to do in response to these crap happening. How the heck do we look deep enough to find the root of these problems, how do we remember this mistake so when a similar one appears on the horizon, whether it be from another person or about to be committed by our selves, that we can be aware of it and react to it?
In some retrospect I actually thank Bush for making his mistakes, which I have learend alot from. Fuck you ignorance, I don't care how long it takes but I will chase you down and try to eliminate you until I die. Even if you keep on prevailing over me from day to day
A recent PBS or Booknotes program described the loyalty interviews made by authorities administering the Japanese internment camps during WW II. These interviews were conducted in order to release internees who had applied to be released to work in defense industry factories, where there were labor shortages. The designers of these interviews were tiny-minded; just as Hoover's FBI had these cockymanie ideas about "loyalty". Just imagine what is going on in our terrorist gulags today, to measure "loyalty" or "hostility", via torture or "smart interviews" such as Hoover's program. Tiny-minded Bush has no problem: "Whoever is not for us, is against us." Saves a lot of time and trouble, and doesn't worry about the niceties of habeas corpus. I often wonder whose idea it was to name the Washington, DC headquarters of the FBI after Hoover? I think that if we can erase Benedict Arnold's patriotism during our war of Independence, we have better reasons to erase Hoover's name off the FBI building.
the economic system is unravelling, and thus the ruling class pursues similar measures in anticipation of massive unrest. the events in new orleans are an instance.
I think J. Edger spent too much time alone but what's a Writ of Habeas Corpus or the Rule of Law in this government?
Those scumbags may have built the camps for U.S. citizens who have a conscience, but it is likely that they are the ones to be reeducated if they aren't killed outright or hung. Their biggest mistake was in allowing anyone that could make their mark buy a gun. Now there is a decided surplus of weaponry in the U.S. and no shortage of the abused and disenfranchised to wield it.
It is important that this came out. It shows just what the powers-that-be are capable of. They're after us all regardless of how we're labeled.
Actually, part of me would like to see them try it. Considering how much of the population is against this admininstration. Maybe that would stir everyone up and make the people realize that we're all in this together.
As a woman, I don't have that worry KEM PATRICK:
binnnn says: The F.B.I would "apprehend all individuals potentially dangerous" to national security
What do you think happen in Quebec in 1970 when Trudeau brought in the War Measures Act in response to the October Crisis. I think that it was Jean Cretien who suggest that Trudeau make this move. Luckily, it only happened for a very short time.
One needs a crisis to "justify" these things. The Cold War was a manufactured crisis.
So Hover wanted to be Truman's Cheney.
It is pretty well established that Hoover was able to stay in office so long because he used the FBI to collect data on members in congress in order to control them. Cheney also has his own private secret service. Maybe that is why many members in congress are so compliant with this administration. Maybe that is why impeachment is off the table.
Tell you the absolute truth, I don't give a crap about Hoover's plans. No doubt, he had many secrets and was quite obsessed with his vendetta. Thank the Universe his plans never became concrete. On the other hand, this administration, as equally obsessed and with an evil agenda being orchestrated by their MASTERS with the complicity of a cowardly, cow-towing Congress, should have us scared out of our wits and resisting with what power we have left. Be afraid...be very afraid! This administration is at the root of all the supposed terrorism.
This is about to happen here, folks, and here are the enabling components of this plan: (a) HR1955/S1959 (The Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Act of 2007), (b) KBR's direct and indirect influence/control over this piece of legislation, (c) the already completed construction by Halliburton of over 800 detention camps throughout the U.S., capable of housing 20,000 prisoners each, to be operated by FEMA to detain U.S. citizens deemed to be "enemy combatants" or "news informers," (d) the growth of the "global stabilization professionals" industry (inc. Blackwater) within our borders, and (e) the undoing of our Constitutional rights by the Bush/Cheney administration.