Mr. Dave Lindorff,

Please get off it . . .it is a bad joke!

Hey MISANTHORPE, Thank you for that link. Yes, it is happening now and in several large areas. Because of that, and the resulting much faster warming of the planet than had been previously predicted, the big BURP of methane may very well occur within five to ten years. If it does, it will be very bad. __ VERY!!

Waiting to act with a MASSIVE world-wide attempt to reverse the damagse actually is insanity by humanity. If we did that, the millions of jobs created would stave off a depression.

Kem: I read this article and immediately thought of you http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071221222544.htm this tends to support the Methane Burp theory.

Other theories ascribe global warming feedback to Permafrost melt in the Arctic. This appears to be happening now and will surely accelerate warming although it lacks the explosive or suffocating potential of "methane Burps".

More likely they would sneer, they are mostly humorless.

You know the rightwingers fundies have been saying for years and years that we leftists will be wiped out for being sodomites, pagans and unbelievers, so I'm with Dave L. I'd laugh and laugh if they were the ones wiped out by floods and locusts. Schadenfreude? You bet tit for tat baby, don't think the rightwingers wouldn't laugh at us if we were suffering.

Yeah nice poem. Needed lots of immigrant labor back then. Busted their friggin heads when they tried to start unions though.

LUCKY LEFTY: A great Saturday Night Live skit would include you playing Santa, telling the little rich white American kids tidbits of history while asking them with inordinate sarcasm what they want for Christmas. I salute your poetry!

DAVE LINDORFF - You madman! Don't you realize America left Her sense of humor and irony out in the back yard with the skinned red man and the lynched Black man? She absolutely refuses to go back there to find what She lost. Says the place is haunted. She can't even remember all that she has left back there. Somebody said there was a big statue with a plaque standing in the high reeds and bulrushes. The plaque says,

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Like I said, She has lost a lot back there.

Peace.

I suppose I shoudl say something about the supposed "blockbuster" report: U.S. Senate Report: Over 400 Prominent Scientists Disputed Man-Made Global Warming Claims in 2007.

I think they should get together and hold a conference. See what kind of CONSENSUS of skepticism they can produce and how it stands up to scientific scrutiny and observed facts.

The fact is anyone can be a sleptic - you needn't be a scientist. You just say "prove it". Very little can be proved, but as I tried to express before only fool needs absolute proof before taking action. No decent gambler needs proof, and we are all gamblers today. When an otherwise respected scientist expresses skepticism they are usually speaking in a "prove it" kind of way. That, in fact, is what a good scientist should do - ask for proof although they rarely even achieve it.

However, being a skeptic is hardly the same as disproving something. And I challenge the authors of this disinformation campaign to show how their 400 scientists can disprove anything of substance in the IPCC work.

Here's what I see as one of the biggest poblems around our collective response to global warming: we don't know how to rationally THINK about it.

I don't mean we don't have scientists who can study and debate the causes. I don't mean we don't have organizations that can mobilize for advocacy. I don't mean we don't have pundits who can write op eds galore and try to look smart.

Overall, the people of America and maybe the world just don't know how to think rationally about a range of scenarios and partial knowledge with associated probabilities (with many of them making our own worst science fiction distopias look hopeful).

The whole notion of a "consensus" view put out by the IPCC is a political compromise, hardly the way to be "rational". It plays into our worst habits of needing to "know" what will happen before taking any action.

Most of the people who (correctly) point out that climate research is "uncertain" do so because they don't want to believe that man is cooking his own goose. That climate research is uncertain is undisputable, because we constantly read that scientists keep being surprised at the accelerating pace of warming. However, the uncertainty should hardly should be reassuring to global warming skeptics.

What I would most like to see is an article on Global Warming by Jimmy the Greek (OK he's dead, so who's the big odds maker these days?)

But even then, I don't think any of us can really wrap our collective heads around the worst case scenarios at an emotional level. What happens to human society if it becomes emotionally a certainty that we are on a doomed spacecraft?
What happens then? Want to risk it?

The point of the article was repeated ad nauseum in the comments section.

You don't HAVE to believe in global warming if global warming believes in YOU. If the OP was wrong this is just all wasted words. If the OP is right then the conservatives of the south and midwest should be screaming for climate change mitigation. Emergency services always arrive after it is too late for too many.

KEM PATRICK --

"intelligent fool" -- it's a shame you can't respond to someone with a differing opinion without being rude and disrespectful.

Also, read the post I was responding to and you may understand why I mentioned my automobile.

This is the last I'll say on this subject.

We have a corporate elite -- the WTO, IMF, World Bank, and numerous central banks like the Federal Reserve -- which maintain their power status by keeping people off balance economically. They do this through any number of methods. You are probably aware of many of them.

There is also a political elite. They maintain their power status through government oppression. They do this through things like taxes, pandering to special interests groups and sometimes outright corruption.

You may not want to hear it but the environmental movement is in bed with both. Man made global warming has become their tool for oppression. Extremists fight to keep vital technologies from impoverished nations and propose additional taxes on already overburdened citizens. This goes a lot deeper than simply cutting carbon emissions. Do some research.

Yes -- environmental responsibility is necessary and it doesn't have to be attached to some political agenda nor increase and maintain pain and suffering . The fear tactics used through all the doom and gloom predictions of man made global warming extremists are no different from the "Islamic fascists are out to destroy us" message we hear from neo-cons. Each one of them wants to regulate and legislate your freedoms away from you while keeping the elite in power. I'll fight them both -- you apparently would rather pick your poison and try to live with it.

That's all I'll say in this discussion. I'm happy I, unlike you, was able to participate without sinking to the level of rudeness, insults, and name calling.

___I've been stunned by the lack of humor with which this post was taken.___

Mr. Lindorff, I am guessing you are not from the Deep South. As a seventh-generation Alabamian, let me try to explain something to you. People from the Deep South, regardless of color, class, etc., face enormous hostility and bigotry anywhere away from home. I am articulate, very highly educated, and extremely progressive. Yet since I moved North I have often been confronted by white people, many times but not always so-called progressives, who assume that since I am from Alabama I am an ignorant, racist, Bible-beating conservative hick. I love my state and my region. It is full of Black liberals and White conservatives, White progressives and Black bigots, neoConfederates and former Black Panthers, a growing group of non-Black non-White immigrants, and everything in between. It is neither uniform nor homogeneous. I appreciate your posting here in the comments section and clarifying that your article was satire because, honestly, that wasn't apparent when I read it. Please, Common Dreamers, think before you bash people from Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, Florida, and on and on.

OXYGEN? __ NASA scientists says it began with 90%, in 1970 it had dropped to 70%, __ now it's 50%. __ In five years? Their accelerated demise is now alarming say those who study them.

http://whyplankton.com/

MARK ABRAMS, you make some fair points. It is a fact that many scientists are not in agreement about the time frames. Some say we have a hundred years to correct the problem, some say by 2050, and some say five to ten years. Except for a 'very few', most by far agree that we have the most serious problem ever faced by humanity and we must begn NOW to attempt to reverse the damage already done to our atmosphere and our oceans.

What BIGJOE31 just posted is most appropriate. In just the past year, the scientific evidence proves that the global warming and the acidity of the oceans is far worse than had been previously projected, and we may have already passed the tipping point of no return. So Lindorff's cats may be gone before they can die of natural causes. We may all join them, curled up in a fetal position.

The intelligent fool here with no obvious common sense gave us the names of a some scientists who deny the global warming issue. Here's just a couple who state otherwise when speaking about the acidity of the oceans and the loss of ocean life. Which by the way, is where we get oxygen required to speak our piece and that needed by our children and all other life.

Carol Turley, in a paraphrase from the Oscar Report. "The issue is the most serious humanity has ever faced." __The President of the Heinz Center and a world renouned tropical forest ecologist. "This is the most frightening and chilling enviromental briefings I have ever had." These people who have spent their entire adult lives studying the enviroment are frightened____ they should be, we all should be, if we care for our children and their's futures.

Not babbling, shaking fear, the sky is falling rants, but genuine concern and determinatinon to correct the problem, because the sky is not falling, it is going to fill with methane gas and a lack of oxygen. That very well may occur within five to ten years ___ maybe longer, but it is going to occur if we humans allow it.

No scientist worthy of the name would tell you the "consesnus view" is what science expects to happen. All is models, and scenarios, and probabilities. Its like a gambler who uses "expected value" to try to avoid losing his house. There's a real probability he loses everything then. Policy should be based on the most extremly negative probabilities,
and revised even more so because scientists keep finding the pace of warming is always worse than what they had expected a few years back. Just read the news.

"The area that will by completely inundated by the rising ocean-and not in a century but in the lifetime of my two cats-are the American southeast, including the most populated area of Texas, almost all of Florida, most of Louisiana, and half of Alabama and Mississippi, as well as goodly portions of eastern Georgia, South Carolina and North Carolina."

That is not the consensus view of scientists studying global warming. The consensus view is considerably less drastic, at least in the lifetime of anybody's now-living cats.

The consensus view does say that we are already locked into severe consequences and have very little time to avert disastrous consequences - in the long term. But the time scale for the kind of flooding Lindorff talks about, possible but not yet certain, is more the order of a century. Must be some hardy cats you got there, Dave.

It's true that there are unproven factors, such as the methane hydrates Lindorff mentions, which some people argue may bring such disastrous consequences much sooner. But that is not the consensus view because, simply, that hasn't been proved. Such arguments are doubtful and controversial. There are other people who argue that other factors mean the problem won't be as severe as the consensus model. When you pick one side or another because it suits your politics or prejudices or personal preferences, you depart from science.

I don't mean to minimize the seriousness of the problem, but hyperbolic overstatement undercuts the effort to translate the scientific consensus into a political consensus for action.

Good for you to have such a well maintained automobile. I do wonder how that fact has anything to do with the proven fact, that this period of global warming began with the start of the industrial age and massive coal burning began near 200 years ago.

The proof is in the ice core samples and tree ring samples, __ absolute unquestionable proof. They can read the Co2 present in the atmosphere going back to long before recorded history. Then all one has to do is see how much the Arctic and Anarctic ice has melted in just the past two years, the 'once permanent ice', which has disappeared on every mountain range on the planet.

Observe with your own eyes the disappearing glaciers in Glacier National Park. The hundreds of lakes that have disappeared in the Arctic as the perma frost meltted and the water went down the drains as if one had pulled the plugs on bathtubs.

Glad you arrived, ABOVETHECLUTTER, because some good information has been offerd by others because of you. As to my words of you being stupid and or worse are concerned, they are irrelivent, you have proven to all, that you indeed are worse than those. Funny you would use the word obtuse too.

We were well advised of this problem many years ago by a very knowledgable scientist and explorer of our water world. Jacques Costeau wrote the warnings in his book, "THE OCEAN WORLD". Argue with his words, __ not ours. You will never understand how foolish you sound, ___ pitiful indeed.

fucking bourgeois suburban lefties... well mannered... well behaved. I cant beleive im being moderated XD

Why i mentioned you refused to link http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ is because you would if it wasnt because you dont want competition in the left-leaning daily news website thing.

Im pissed off at being moderated for using "bad words". It goes along with the same line of thinking. Good clean news.

Calling a shill for what he is,
by saying that he takes us for fucking idiots, is warrant for a moderation?
Im not exactly sure why it is im getting moderated but im not sure i care. Im just not gonna bother posting here again. I think i offered some good information in this thread, i just cant understand that kind of condescending behavior from this website.

Ok, now im never posting another comment.

So... my using bad language warrants moderation... i guess i know why commondreams refuses to link http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/

Im never posting another comment here again. Keep your FUCKING website, common my ass

nspire --

Many years ago 99 percent of European scientists believed the earth was the center of the universe. The majority also believed in spontaneous generation and that the earth was flat. It was the minority that was correct in all of these situations.

Although I disagree that the vast majority of scientists agree with man made global warming, it would be folly to write off findings simply because they are in the minority. Especially since that "minority" is growing daily.

I'm also curious, where do you get your 10,000 experts figure?

You're right, the IPCC skews their reports to agree with the "majority." They actually leave out information to the contrary. I think that's wrong. Why not give us the full untouched reports and let us decide rather than trying to guide our thinking. It's practices like this which cause me to question them.

By the way and since you bring up getting rich on false statements, if you don't think environmental scientists and bureaucrats are getting rich off government grants and donations from proponents, you're not looking at all sides of that argument. They are just as at fault as corrupt corporations.

It's our sky -- not special interest serving bureaucrats and corporations.

Also, my car gets 33 mpg in the city and 38 mpg on the highway and has a total of 188,000 miles (I don't count the tenths). I have it serviced regularly to insure that it remains fuel efficient since I plan to drive it at least another 60,000 miles.

The Midwest - a once and future inland sea.

above the clutter -- You quoted (somebody) about IPCC working groups.

The reality is that the IPCC is extremely CONSERVATIVELY biased toward 100.0% agreement on issues (that go into ints report), as it is the least common denominator that is constantly 'falling out' due to the (for example) 0.4% holding that opinion vs. the 99.6% on the opposite side (guess which is which?).

Any reasonable person might consider that 99.4% of 10,000 experts was definitive, but noooooo, you really want to see all those decimal places settle before you make up your mind.

I would guess if this is your attitude in more pedestrian issues, that you take your car in for massive repair/inspections when your mileage drops from 19.3 mpg to 19.1? They must sure love your at that shop!

IF, you even a shred of evidence that the later (not included findings) would change the overall consensus, then

NOW IS THE TIME TO TURN YOUR CARDS OVER,
otherwise 'get out of my sky'.

My suspicion is that all relevant and peer-reviewed (by established scientific organizations) evidence is only becoming more definitive that you and your bunch are getting rich by stating obvious false statements.

… where's da beef?

nspire --

That's a very clever DODO reference.

Since you don't find merit it a quote from John Coleman, here's one from a recent letter written to the U.N. by 100 of the world's most prominent scientists.

----In stark contrast to the often repeated assertion that the science of climate change is "settled," significant new peer-reviewed research has cast even more doubt on the hypothesis of dangerous human-caused global warming. But because IPCC working groups were generally instructed to consider work published only through May, 2005, these important findings are not included in their reports; i.e., the IPCC assessment reports are already materially outdated.----

catseyes--

I'll finish this exchange. It's just to tiring to continue. If you can't see the connection between power plants and a water treatment and sanitation facilities, I can't help you.

For the record -- I'm totally against the IMF.

Do some research. You'll find that just as the IMF manipulates governments from the right, the environmentalists manipulate from the left. They both also manipulate the private sector. In Africa, specifically, there is also rampant governmental corruption. Therefore the people are caught in the middle -- governments do nothing and enterprising individuals are handcuffed. Unlike you, I want to see them both end (the IMF and environmentalism). You apparently are willing to trade one for the other.

Are you so obtuse that you actually believe the only global warming lobbyists are in Washington? Maybe to make it simple for you I should have written -- international global warming activists.

I laughing too -- out of pity.

*DODO (aka abovetheclutter) -- Only a very small portion of the Scientific process (methodology) is about debate, or persuasive speaking.
*possibly already extinct
Science is about OBJECTIVE consensus and the preponderance of evidence, not bought and paid for shills stating the opposite of the non-extorted tens of thousands already in basic agreement.

The only variances that are still open for resolution, are insignificant compared to what is agreed upon, and last time I checked the WEATHER CHANNEL was only good for 10 days' forecast.

I doubt that the WEATHER CHANNEL is very good at 10,000 + year forecasting

abovetheclutter

Im wasting my time arguing with you, but ill let you have a shot. How would the presence of a power plant help fight a water-related disease?

Theres a cruel lack of sanitation infrastructures in Africa which was caused mainly by the IMF's drastic economic measures there, the structural adjustement programs. It cut governement funding for the public sector, including water sanitation projects. Thats what causing all these water-based diseases to proliferate.

And are you seriously saying that africans are being denied power plants because of the all-powerful global warming lobbyists in washington? That they were denied this technology? hahahaha

aw man, there, i laughed!

KEM PATRICK --

For every one of the 2500 scientist you say support global warming there is at least one who doesn't. The debate isn't over.

As for native people -- try preaching global warming to the mother in an African village who just saw her child die from dysentery. A death that could've been prevented in the presence of a power plant. Yet she was denied this technology because global warming extremest didn't want to increase the world's "carbon footprint."

For your information, 200 years ago many parts of the world were going through what is known as the little ice age (1250 - 1850). So much for it being "PROVEN" that global warming started 200 years ago.

Calling me an idiot and stupid may help you FEEL intelligent but it doesn't MAKE you intelligent nor does it change the facts.

abovetheclutter professes

"respect I have for the intelligence of many people posting here."

and then cites

"the founder of the Weather Channel."

'Nuff said.

There are more than 2,500 other scientists, who have spent their entire adult lives studying the enviroment, our atmosphere and the oceans, who seriously disagree with the ones you listed here ABOVETHECLUTTER. And those 2,500 plus are not being paid by governments, to offer their valued findings and opinions.

The clues of a coming enviromental disaster are clearly obvious for any to see.

It does not require a highly trained scientist to see with their own eyes what is already occuring. Native people who live on islands and in the Arctic, who don't know what the word school means, can see the planet's enviroment is in serious trouble.

It is well established, __ PROVEN__ beyond any shadow of doubt, by any who have any common sense at all, that the global warming problem we are now having began with the idustrial age of humanity, some 200 years ago.

BTW, I'm personally delighted, to see the author post a comment here today.

Glad to see you here too ABOVETHECLUTTER. It helps us to realize the type of idiots who rule the world and what stupidity we are facing.

catseyes --

First off I'll accept your statement that I'm wrong about why people are angry over this article. With that said, my opinion on man made global warming is unchanged.

You wrote "its beyond debate that carbon dioxide warms up the climate...."

That's just not the case. Here are a few notable and very recent (since November) quotes.

This first one is from UN IPCC reviewer and climate researcher Dr. Vincent Gray of New Zealand.

--"There is no evidence that carbon dioxide increases are having any effect whatsoever on the climate." --

Dr. Gray is also a co-recipient of this years Nobel Peace Prize with the IPCC and Al Gore.

This next one is from Australian scientist Dr. David Evans, a mathematician who did carbon accounting for the Australian government.

--"We now have quite a lot of evidence that carbon emissions definitely don't cause global warming."--

The last one is from John Coleman. He's the founder of the Weather Channel.

----It is the greatest scam in history. I am amazed, appalled and highly offended by it. Global Warming; It is a SCAM. Some dastardly scientists with environmental and political motives manipulated long term scientific data to create an illusion of rapid global warming. Other scientists of the same environmental whacko type jumped into the circle to support and broaden the "research" to further enhance the totally slanted, bogus global warming claims. Their friends in government steered huge research grants their way to keep the movement going.----

I, like the majority of people, care about our environment but I oppose being manipulated for political agendas.

You also wrote "Do you think we are such fucking idiots that we are gonna fall for this? Your low estimate of our intelligence makes for really bad propaganda."

No, I do not think you are "fucking idiots" and I don't believe you understand the respect I have for the intelligence of many people posting here. Having a different opinion from someone else doesn't equate to a belief that they lack intelligence.

It's also too bad that you see giving an opinion as tantamount to coming here to "stir up shit...." Are you completely closed off to people who have different opinions from you?

I'll leave you with a quote from another one of your post.

On December 23rd, 2007 5:25 am when referring to the book, American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America, you wrote.

"It talks about these christian fundamentalists who focus their teachings on the apocalypse part of the bible, and documents how there is a lot of violence in the bible against non-beleivers in the end days."

It's my belief that the far left environmental and global warming extremists pose the same threat. Their constant doom and gloom/apocalyptic predictions support this belief. The more I read their opinions and see their efforts to direct governmental policies the more obvious this becomes.

I respect that you don't feel the same way. I happen to feel that it's wise to look for danger from all sides -- not just the right.

I've been stunned by the lack of humor with which this post was taken. Geez guys.

But as long as so many of you can't take a joke, let me be serious for a minute:

The truth is that this is not a red/green thing at all. We are all equally fucked by global warming, and it's going to be much, much worse than Al Gore and the environmental establishment, including the UN scientists, are letting on.

The arctic methane hydrates --and undersea hydrates in even larger amounts -- are very real, and when the permafrost, particularly in Siberia, but also in northern Canada, starts to seriously melt, and the methane starts really pouring out, with its 23X stronger heat blanket than CO2, the heating crisis is going to be unbelievable. Forget the greenland ice sheet. Much of Antarctica's much thicker ice sheet will also be history. and that will mean ocean rises dwarfing the 20 feet we get from Greenland.

And that's not all.

The dust bowls that will be created of places like the midwest and the San Juaquin Valley, or much of central China, or Central India, and by the onward march south of the Sahara, will produce sandstorms that could sweep the globe, tearing up fertile soils, causing silicosis in lungs, and coating what remains of the ice, making it melt even faster.

We are in a life-and-death race with catastrophe and catastrophe is winning.

My feeling is it's probably too late to do anything now, so we may as well start using black humor to keep ourselves going.

Merry Christmas, all.

HEDOLOGY: I lived in the Florida Keys and still have friends and clients there. Visiting for Thanksgiving my hostess who lives on a canal just off the Atlantic said she's very grateful for climate (global warming) deniers, because this way she can still sell her property, having enjoyed it all these years!

Edit?

If ANY believe the coming release of the methane gas in the Arctic is just a myth, ___ they are as stupid as the idiot who used the name ABOVETHECLUTTER, __ Dec 23 at 3:48am.

If ANY believe that our ocean's phytoplankton are not in serious trouble, then they are seriously misinformed. Time is rapidly running out to reverse those two disasters.

It doesn't matter and I and others are wasting our time posting here, nothing is going to change in time to prevent it. Merry Christmas, if you have children love them while you can. ~Bye~

Google arctic methane gas and phytoplankton. Study the hundreds of articles provided. ___ It's free.

Hooboy -- that's a whale of a premise!

I see it as the blue coastal areas suffering immensely, and, to the extent that any red areas do, that'll just move them into areas being staked out by displaced blue people.

Remember: the red coats have all the guns.

I'm with frank1569 December 23rd, 2007 4:32 am

Dave? Are you still reading? I hope you are, and I hope you've been absorbing and thinking about the many fine (and even the occasional crazy) responses, and are willing to give it another try (irony, sarcasm, juxtaposition, humor, whatever!) and at least donate a bit of time to give us a response. You can win serious points here, even if it's merely amongst us crazies, trolls, and expats. It's worth the effort.

Perhaps I'm missing something but I didn't think this article was an attempt at humor. So where I live it is a major concern, because the people will come. Frankly, I much prefer the eagle, the bear and the wolf.

"As systems begin to crash, more and more will turn "religious," which means "far right." Aware of this, the fundamentalist End Timers have been hard at work brainwashing the men and women who serve that they are some God's warriors in a fight for their very Christian souls."

A good book on this issue is:
"American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America" by Chris Hedges.

It talks about these christian fundamentalists who focus their teachings on the apocalypse part of the bible, and documents how there is a lot of violence in the bible against non-beleivers in the end days.

Those people will have more ammo to manipulate people into thinking that these are the days of the apocalypse as the environement goes to shit and people get even more desperate than they are now.

Dave L., I'm afraid that I must agree with frank1569 immediately above. Remember that you are talking about a population that is not moved by evidence. In fact, to many of them, a reasoned approach is objectionable. Therefore, they will not extend logically from a premise.

You do extend logically from a premise, which makes you part of the "reality based community." See also Suskind, R. "Without a Doubt" N.Y.Times Magazine, October something, 2004.

Correct facts, incorrect conclusions. The "right" also owns most of the 200+ million guns on our streets, not to mention the majority of our military personnel. When our situation turns critical, those with the weapons will be those with the power, period. And let's not forget which side weapons manufacturers are on, either - think they'll be supplying the "left" or the "friends" who have kept them in the money for so many decades?

As systems begin to crash, more and more will turn "religious," which means "far right." Aware of this, the fundamentalist End Timers have been hard at work brainwashing the men and women who serve that they are some God's warriors in a fight for their very Christian souls. Think the evangelicals choose to focus their mind-control efforts on the Air Force? Death from above... as if they were God, see?

No, DL's assessment is wrong - when the sheet hits the fan, those of us not "right" will be jailed, killed, or some combination of both.

"Man made global warming is a sham. All of these doom and gloom predictions are simply an attempt to control. They want to keep impoverished countries and people in poverty while robbing the wealth of developed nations and people. They do this under the guise of helping others and saving the planet."

its beyond debate that carbon dioxide warms up the climate, the only thing that is up for debate is how much of an effect we have on it, not if we have an effect at all. You should have tried that argument back in 1989.

"It's great to see so many people angered by this article because it truly exposes the real agenda of environmentalist and global warming fanatics."

Do you think we are such fucking idiots that we are gonna fall for this? Your low estimate of our intelligence makes for really bad propaganda. Angry opinions are because people dont think global warming is funny, not because they think global warming is a myth. If i was your employer, paying you to come here to try to stir up shit and discredit global warming, id have one thing to say to you: YOURE FIRED!

This article does a great job of shining a light on environmentalism. When you take a deep look into environmentalism you will see that it is probably the world's largest religion. Devotees like Mr. Lindorff want to see our country's government turned into a theocracy. This would be no different than turning it over to the far religious right.

Man made global warming is a sham. All of these doom and gloom predictions are simply an attempt to control. They want to keep impoverished countries and people in poverty while robbing the wealth of developed nations and people. They do this under the guise of helping others and saving the planet.

This is the most despicable aspect of this movement -- the use of our sense of morality and love for our fellow man as a tool for their highly immoral purposes. This is akin to the population control talk. If you don't believe they will rejoice at people dying, read this article again. The satirical tone is a very weak facade.

It's great to see so many people angered by this article because it truly exposes the real agenda of environmentalist and global warming fanatics.

the oil dumped into our seas.just a thin layer of oil coating our oceans,would be enough to contribute greatly to global warming.the rays could not fall freely,to penetrate the depths of the ocean floors,but would instead refract off any thin layer of oil and(would bend) arch upwards back toward the sun.unfettered .ultra-violet rays are essential to cleanse,disinfect and nourish oceans.

just curious..does anyone know if there have been any studies done on how or if nuclear power plants affect global warming or the ozone ??thanx,goodnight.

"And they know also that something must be done about it, so they will do something about it, because a business cannot remain profitable if it kills off its customers."

Everything is a money-making opportunity for those short-sighted no holds barred capitalists motherfuckers. Im still somewhat of a social democrat, but this doomsday flavored capitalism is really getting out of hand.

Theyre making a killing in African slums with pay-per-shit toilets because in some places sanitation is non-existent, and rich africans take their tap water and go sell it in the slums. Private firefighters in California to protect select homes against forest fires. Private security firms driving out homeless people trying to get a little heat in the metro back into cold streets in the middle of winter in my hometown of Montreal. I could go on and on...

They'll fucking sell us inflatable boats, umbrellas, and mosquito nets for the water-borne diseases at top profit rate. Theyll have an iraq-style contract bonanza to lift our cities on stilts. Blackwater contracts/ orivate security firms to shoot "looters". Theyre were already planning for 80% of the world population to be superfluous back in '95. Starting to get the picture?

Coco, is that you ?

finally,something we can all agree on...good humour is food for the soul.

Hey duffus, I see the wing fell off on your side of the airplane.

Too bad about that, sorry to see you go …

You're probably right MISANTHORPE. I do shoot the bull.

One thing, I get most of my bull from studying the papers of those who should know the score. I just pass on here some of what I've read, studied and choose to believe. I often offer links and don't pretend to be very smart. I also never start a pissing contest, or a shit fight with another blogger. I do join in at times. I much prefer a little humor.

Ick. Come on, Dave. "When I'm serious, I'm not taken seriously, so I guess I should expect people to be angry at this piece…"

So, if you're not serious, are you trying to be funny? Sarcastic? Stupid? I'm 100% for keeping a good sense of humor (wry, sarcastic, or even potty) but you can do better than this. I know you can; I've been reading you for years. Please do give it another try, but leave the stupid stuff for O'Really, Coulter, Hannity, and their ilk.

i forgot to mention....bombs and depleting uranium...what must that do for global warming ?? the evangelical right was foolish and they were fooled...do they all reside in red states ??....do you believe you can never be fooled or foolish,especially if you reside in a blue state ?and why do you perpetuate the already great divide(that does exist) in our country ?don't you buy that old cliche "a country divided will not stand" ?if you are caught in the floodwaters(natural or manipulated)you would most likely be welcomed,here.

Personally, I'll take Lindorff's word for it (tongue in cheek or not) before I'd buy into Kem Patrick's monomaniacal bullshit any day of the week. I wouldn't want to face the future with a boatload of progressives any more than one full of red staters, rednecks, neocons, neoliberals, etc.etc.etc. even if the seas don't rise, your going to need more than a set of high waders to stay abreast of the bullshit that passes for dialogue in this doomed and demented country.

Dummest thing I ever read. Where does he think the people will go?
To New York where they instantly become liberal? More likely they will take their forced migration as akin to the Jews marching into the promised land - for themselves and their God.

(And no they won't begin to suspect that global warming has anything but a divine cause.)

K.P., let us hope so........my problem with this article and a few of the posts,here.............is that it seems to assume that everyone in a 'red' state is 'bad' and everyone in a 'blue' state is 'good'.......,there seems to be a good amount of lumping and misplaced bigotry... and ticonderoga,true,but naive..there are a billion customers(consumers)in china,that would be glad to take our place.i think the "elite"of this world would be content with a few less 'worshippers'......less mouths to feed...less water to share.....etc... americans are infamous for being ornery non-conformists and spoiled super-consumers in other words,a pain in the ass to those who would be kings !!THE REAL culprits of global warming,are those that would be kings..with their H.A.A.R.P. program,their rape of the rainforests...cell phone towers, satellites,all their many ventures with ELECTROMAGNETICS,and their insatiable,bottomless greed for ever more control,power and money......they,the top 5 percent of this world are the 'TRUE' culprits responsible for the velocity and expansive growth of global warming.....we are only guilty of using and consuming that which they have made.

Well, in spite of all the outrage, I think this is funny, in an ironic, sarcastic sort of way. Makes me think of a revenge fantasy.

Would progressives actually do what Dave suggests? I doubt it. We, by nature, are humanitarian.

First, as others have pointed out, this is a worst-case scenario/satire piece.

Second, global warming probably will save us, although hopefully not in the manner predicted by Lindorf. It will save us because the powers-that-be aren't stupid and know damn well that humanity is in serious danger because of global warming, despite their protestations to the contrary. And they know also that something must be done about it, so they will do something about it, because a business cannot remain profitable if it kills off its customers. And politics is a business and the middle class and poor are its customers.

So the politicians will end the war in Iraq and also do something about global warming because they know that if they do not they will go bankrupt, not because we get out in the streets and protest or write articles on Common Dreams or because they're nice guys and have consciences.

They know what to do, they just don't know how to do it yet. The real question is, will they figure out how to do it in time?

They are going to need oxygen, the umbrellas won't help. What I and SHANKAN were attempting to say is, they are not just killing the ones they consider to be worthless, they are committing suicide.

kem patrick,are you also of the opinion,that it will be the "greed driven"that the water's will rise on ? do you also think that the extreme 'right'all reside on the coasts ??kem patrick,it rains on the just and the unjust....but the unjust,got all the umbrellas...................

Well for one thing I agree with here SERAPHICMOM, you sure do post some stupid opinions, see you have done the same on other threads with some today. You cetainly come across as one of those new ones who wishes to get a row goin and detract from the opinions expresed by others. ___ What cute handle have you used here previously?

So that idiot perino was right, something good will happen because of global warming....or was that the missle crisis thing?

this is a hardnosed bunch of ignorance..shankari,.why the hell do you imagine,it would be the "greed-driven" bunch who would be knee-deep in water?they will not.the "greed-driven" bunch reside on "the HILL"and out of harm's way of the floods....the postings here are as abrasive and as stupid as this lindorff-article.

Well, before that happens I see worse things happening to the hard-headed greed driven types who can't understand science very well. What do you suppose other countries will do when the US continues to pollute putting the whole world in jeopardy? I would think they might do something besides sit on their hands. One can use the imagination here.

I agree with the writer. The greed driven hard headed types are going to need to be knee deep in flood water to get what's going on. Even then they may not get it. The blue states need to be made of sterner stuff. Let greed driven folks in to take over and destroy where we live? hmm. Let me think about that one.

What I find to be ironic is, I do believe that the very few powers of the world, those who control the world's wealth, and therefore control the elections in much of the world, do indeed wish to see genocide.

There is little argument by most who post here, that over-population is the major problem of this planet. You can be assured, that the powers who be agree and they are attempting to insure there are few left. Once they have taken full control, the Jews, the Arabs and people of color other than white, are going to be eradicated. They'll save some doctors scientists and good looking gals.

Ironic? By the steps the powerful have taken to insure global warming and the acidity buildup of our oceans continue unabatted, they are also insurng their own demise. Even if they could manage to construct a huge biosphere, they wold have to live in it for a hundred thousand years or so.

Am I babbling? ___ I don't believe so, reality is just that,__ reality. What is occurring is plainly obvious.

What the author failed to address is, that by the time the serious flooding begins, there won't be anyone here to see it happen, much less begin building dikes.

We had lunch with a dike and her friend last week as a matter of fact, a swell English professor. Which is far off of the subject.

When the methane gas which has been trapped in the Arctic perma-frost for the past five million years or so escapes into our atmosphere, we are all gonna be dead, moms dads, their house pets and their children. That may happen within five years, it's not a joke or a so called left wing "sky is falling" comment. It's happening now.

In addition, the acidity of our ocean's from man made pollution, burning coal, DU and other deadly atomic wastes, chemicals, dumping garbage into the oceans, etc, is killing off the microscopic phytoplankton. Those tiny plants produce most of the ozygen in our atmosphere. If that continues we may, once again, all die within a few as five years, even if the methane gas hasn't suffocated us,___ because we just don't have enough bottled oxygen to go around.

Google arctic methane gas, after readng the articles provided, Google phytoplankton.

Here is just one, http://whyplankton.com/

Of course that link is also full of ads for buying phytoplankton pills. Which are actually very good for us. However the two very brief paragraphs, which any seven year old could read in less than a minute and fully understand, tells why those tiny plants are vital for all life and were written by highly qualified scientists, who fully appreciate the serioudness of the problem.

The clues of the problems are clearly obvious and if all governments don't address it now, not next year or 2009, (now), we will ALL die, not just the ones who currently live near the sea shore. Not my opinions, it's the opinions of over 2,000 scientists who have spent their entire adult lives studying the issue and are not giving dire warnings to make money.

john freeman,that is not true...i wrote letter after letter to every congressman,govenor,senator,george w. bush.george hw bush,arnold swar....nancy pelosi....etc..etc...warning them off genocide...they are isolated war-mongering pieces of shit.and could not care less what the 'people think.i care very deeply for the people of this world...but americans are shouldering the sins of an evil few,who have run amok and they do not represent us anymore than they resemble jesus christ !!

No one seems to care about Banglidesh or the genocides in Africa but look out if there is any mention of bad stuff that could happen to a 'Merican.

I'm disappointed in this article. If it was intended to be satire, or at least slightly tongue in cheek, it still didn't have a point. Global warming affects us all and the whole planet. Encouraging further division between Americans helps not one bit. We must unite to confront this issue. Did any of you find any satisfaction at all in having the right to say "I told you so" after the Iraq war turned out to be the disaster we predicted? I certainly didn't, because hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) are now dead, and the world is even closer to catastrophe. The same with global warming: we must unite to fight it, and all of us will have to make some sacrifices. I am very tired of the smug self-righteousness of some on the American left, the suburban leftist types that feel so morally superior to poor, uneducated whites that often vote Republican without trying to understand their point of view. The ideal world of the future that I envision has less division and more compassion.

Honestly, poetic justice? That is how you would characterize the tragedy that is to befall this world? That is unfortunate.

Umm ......... the "blue" Pacific Northwest has a lot to be worried about in sea level rise, and we do. When younger, I too thought about survival-scenarios in a simplistic manner like the author of this piece, but learned over the years that we are all sharing the same boat, and the travails of any will ultimately affect the whole crew. Human civilization as it is will probably take quite a blow from Global Warming, and gambling on our somehow muddling though it with anything like our current societal structures remaining intact isn't a good bet.

PaulK__ Don`t liberals have any hellraisers in their group? No wonder they can`t seem to get anywhere, they must be too bored and unhappy to get going. I always wondered what the trouble was and why the conservatives run over the top of them all the time. You do not think Nebraska people will care about flooding on the coasts, but how much have those people cared about the excessive droughts in Nebraska? Human nature to worry about your own problems first, I guess.

Sorry. This article combines two premises, that the ocean will rise and that wingnuts will listen to liberals if it does. I'm afraid that the second premise is wacko.

The first premise can assume that the West Antarctic ice sheet, which is already floating on below-sea-level land in its center, will weaken with melting, then collapse and float off year by year, not decade by decade. Estimates of 15 feet of ocean rise are reasonable here.

The problem is, after the ocean rises one foot, who in Nebraska is going to care? Assuming that we eventually hit one foot of ocean rise every January, when the Antarctic melt is worst, will most people care? Will they say, "your dikes are your own problem, I'm in a high state"?

There are two major conservative groups, Bible-thumpers and redneck hellraisers. The Bible Belt folks might finally get that they've ruined their Eden through not caring. The hellraisers will never care unless you convince them that it's in their self-interest to care for the planet.

catseyes -- no, global warming, is NOT funny, people inundated out of their homes: not funny; starving to death from crop failure, definitely not funny. Nazi's aren't terribly funny either, but that didn't stop Mel Brooks from composing "Springtime for Hitler."

So laugh a little.
And remember, be good to your parents because they've been good to you. :-)

ipenek...what is erroneous and just plain wrong,is the notion that the 'right'live on the coasts or in the south....we ocean dwellers are closer to harmony,than you hard-tailed,snow-capped,land-locked," what will the neighbors_ think?- mentality" landlubbers....

I dont know... i dont see the irony? and im not laughing?
Seriously this stuff is giving me the creeps, take a look at where i live, Quebec:
http://geology.com/canada/quebec-map.gif

See all that blue petrol lying around and just waiting for someone to take it? Thats all freshwater... Im just holding out for the news that a terrorist attack happened on Montreal and that the US army is coming over to "help".

I dont know, im losing my sense of humor, i used to laugh alot when i was a teenager and it seems now that i only laugh like a couple of times per month, and its from cats doing crazy shit on youtube, or some witty comment on some ridiculous conspiracy theory video about a reptilian alien race on youtube where someone says "OMG someone call Marc Singer and Micheal Ironside!". Anything not related at all to politics, or the environement.

i dont find stuff as funny as i used to, everything is so fucking creepy. Maybe your piece was funny but im not getting it. So the world is going to shit fast and the chaos is gonna give more ammo to elites manipulating us? Haha heh erhm...

Actually, on further thought, this topic could be re-tooled into a serious discussion--because in a serious way I think it's correct. Global warming, and other developments, WILL save us from the Right. As a core principle this is due to the fact that the Right is out of step with reality. Is the Right capable of pulling the planet together, without regard for privilege or business interest, to save it? Not on your life, and it's your life we're talking about. What nature and science tell us will eventually erode the Rightwing down to a nub, and finally we'll be rid of it.

DAVE LINDORFf,I AM REALLY SURPRISED YOU ARE SUCH AN ASSHOLE.....we coastal dwellers of florida are aware of the inevitable..but we are neither rednecks or bushites.in reality,florida was neutral during the civil war.....was the only place in america where negroes(blacks)were free(see fort mose) and not 'owned'.jeb bush was nothing but a dirty carpetbagger and people similar to me were disenfranchised at the polls.besides,your cock-eyed theories are just plain ignorant and poetic justice would be if a hurricane found its way up your asshole !i am a vetern of the fight against bush,the c.i.a. and all those evil bastards,for all of my life and my parents,before me.look to alaska for your culprit of melting ice..HAARP-HAARP-HAARP-..remember those intials,because that is the real cause of the velocity of the problems.......ask al gore about it .....HE and his buddies have known about it since before 1992......

jerrys: Sooooo....Would you take it literally if I said
"Bite me"?

Apparently Dave L. and I both suffer from being taken literally and seriously.

Maybe I'm the only one besides the author who knew from the start that this was an April-fools joke in December. Very amusing and relatively guilt-free pleasure. Thanks Dave.

The time frames now beg the question as to the justification of spending on new investment in all areas which are likely to inundated in the near future. Even all the money gone into restore and repair of New Orleans is a waste. Everything in those areas should be considered as "temporary" accommodation, with long term arrangements being made for migration. If people really understood global warming and its consequences, real estate values in low lying areas, for example in Florida, should be plummeting to zero (not just from current market bubble popping), and State and Federal governments should have already forbid all new developments in such areas. This is because the standard term of a housing mortgage, being approximately one working lifetime, is now within the possible timetable range of drastic sea level rises.

Because I know how people are manipulated to think and act through various mechanisms both old and new, I find it inhumane to say that peoples living in various sections of the country deserve hardship. Those of us fortunate enough to deprogram ourselves and recognize how such programming occurs also realize how malicious those prospering from the manipulation are. And those prospering are NOT those who will suffer the effects of climate chaos; those represent less than 1% of USA's populace.

An old story shows why Lindorff is wrong--Gilgamesh--where vindictive, jealous gods wanted humanity's demise because we (paraphrase) Make Too Much Noise--Not much different than we don't think alike. The whole object of McCarthyism and of today's neocons is to regiment thought--to get us to think alike--to become homogenized automaton consumers that don't make any noise. So Dave, you're article is just as bad as those of Coulter, Hannity, Limbaugh, etc., and I don't think you want to be included in their ranks. Better to stay on the highground by pointing out why the old Gods are wrong--Remember, Yaweh copied the Gods in Gilgamesh by adopting genocide as a tactic to improve his supposedly perfect creation, and that all three Abrahamic religions accept this story but have yet to learn its lessons.

Dave___ You need to remember that everyone in a "red" state does not share the views of the conservative fanatics, so do not lump all of them together with those you feel need to be punished. The winner take all election system that should be abolished tends to give people the mistaken notion that everyone in a certain area thinks alike. This leads to divisive thought which we have too much of and should be shut down. There are plenty of rotten ideas that have come out of liberal areas also, but a reasonable person does not think the people there are all responsible either.

celebrity,

I think you don't know how old the human species is. Anthropologists tell us modern homo sapiens are about 200,000 years old and that the human species is around 4.5 million years old. The reason I tell you this is because you can see from this that the "world" has been able to "survive" with the human species living here.

I think you and Agent Smith, from the Matrix, think the human species is a "virus" or "disease" to this planet, which to me is completely ridiculous.

The point being, it's not the human species that is the problem but, it is the system we have invented and have refused to question that is at issue. That system is of course industrial civilzation. Not "ALL" of humanity lives in civilization, there are other ways to live on this planet and live without destroying the community of life on this planet. Proof of that is the "Native Americans". Well, I hope that puts to rest your ridiculous comment to the above article.

"Shut up. We told you this would happen." Yes indeed, but noooooooo...

Dave, I don't know why you wrote "When I'm serious, I'm not taken seriously..." I for one always take you seriously!

However, I'd suggest you forget about using irony. Stephen Colbert you're not, my friend. (Nor is anyone else, for that matter.)

Okay, Dave. You upset some people. The question for you to ask yourself is whether that's useful.

When I'm serious, I'm not taken seriously, so I guess I should expect people to be angry at this piece...

As with kelmer (above), my response to this article was also one of disgust. It joins too many pieces posted on CommonDreams which are essentially on target—and with which I agree in principle—but are deeply incongruent with the "higher ground" the article refers to.

My hope is that Mr. Lindorf (and all of us working for change) strive to bring a spirit to what we do and say that matches what we are trying to achieve. De-humanizing and disparaging others, it seems to me, is a major part of the problem. If we continue to do so, the next era will surely turn out to be a lot like this one.

Or maybe it will just be business as usual and what will happen is a word thats been going on my head for a while... apocalypse entrepreneurship. You know, water pipelines from where i live, Quebec, to feed the american midwest agri-business and the occupation of my area to defend against eco-terrorists...

frankr29:
I'm with you. I was shocked, and it takes a lot to shock me anymore, by this article. Human suffering is not a progressive value. I could have told you about the housing bubble, and the coming economic collapse, but it doesn't make me feel better when it happens. Yuppies have feelings too.

In any case, if the author is correct about half the country being flooded, we'll have bigger things to worry about than elections.

One more post on the Nader thread, and then it's back to work, saving the troglodytes from themselves and the author.

Ramsay

Ever since (long before) 9/11/01, the American public has been manipulated by instilling it with a sense of fear and panic. Fear is the mind-killer, after all.

I can't help but wonder what world Lindorff is living in, that he thinks US citizens/residents being displaced by rising seas and pummeling storms will relocate in a quiet, orderly manner which is respectful of the previous occupants of wherever they relocate to.

"[W]e can't have these future refugee troglodytes ... mucking things up again." Dream on!