correction...what ....some ....Americans are like.

Now I was doing what she has been doing and lumping everyone into the same monolithic American or "gringo" as she calls them...

Tell me these Moonraven quotes are not prejudice (and try replacing the word gringo with another group ..like blacks, Jews or Muslims...)

............................................

"I agree: You ARE Islamophobic."

"Just like the rest of the gringos."

.............................................

"Understanding is a word absent from the gringo vocabulary."
"They always think they know better"

..............................................

Clearly the word "gringo" is being used by moonraven as a pejorative and is based in a prejudice against Americans.

Or a person who has been deeply wounded (and deeply disappointed in the past). When one is hurting, the whole world becomes a blurry "they." Which ever it is, it takes the dialogue where I don't want to go. Even if it is something I can respond to when I wish to take a break from what else I am doing on the computer.

Hey, no one in the world is completely free of racism though we should all strive to be. It is a dirty ugly world based on ideas we either don't even realize we have or barely realize we have - but, if we are good people, we don't go out of the way to embrace these fragments of ideas, once we become aware of them - we renounce them and do our best to purge ourselves of them.

You should hear me rant about Sniffhousers when I am hungover from going shopping or participating in some other legitimate activity. I know that the people who do this don't know what they are doing, but I forget that during a hangover because I don't feel that well.

BTW - is Lou Dobbs legal?

Americans should know who Maher Arar is. It frightens me how many Maher Arars there are in the US that we don't know about.

Having one's husband kidnapped and tortured and the best that one can hope for is for him to come home alive and (possibly) permanently damaged is a woman's issue.

The Maher Arar story according to Hansard - you get a few things:
a) Information in the order that we found it out
b) Harper's initial reaction to the Arar case
c) That, before "deporting" Arar to Syria, they made a detour to Jordan

http://thomhartmann.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4061097651/m/3901028782?r=3901028782#3901028782

Maher Arar was detained at a New York stop over between Tunisia (where his wife is from) and Montreal on September 26, 2002.

The war in Iraq started on March 20, 2003.

Maher Arar was released on October 5, 2003.

Maher Arar's story (in his own words):

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/arar_statement.html

vaudree

You are so Canadian to consider why the other person thinks as they do...I can certainly identify with the loss of one's nation and the shock of seeing it stand for things that are so immoral.

I was in an Amnesty International group and my subgroup was the treatment of people by Americans in Afghanistan. There were pages of information about abuse. Then I was reading about how the Red Cross was saying there were serious problems with the treatment of people picked up by Americans in Afghanistan.

For me torture is a bright moral line and to hear about that immorality occuring while so many Americans were so nationalistic and combining nationalism with a strange form of Christianity... that Christ would never have recognized...well it caused me to question what was it that America stood for anyway...I believe the depth of what has occured is still not recognized in the US.

Maher Arar was fortunate because he was a Canadian and he had a wife who did not give up. We are finding out about the people who have western citizenships that have been picked up and tortured ..but others are stll unknown. Some have died.

And this torture is being done under the authority of the US government. Of everything the Bush administration has done, for me this is the worst and the reason I have left America. (Well and also Canada is a principled nation, with some very nice people...but nothing is perfect)

But wherever people lose their human rights, and wherever there are abused people, I beleive people have a moral obligation to speak up and help those who can not help themselves. The bell tolls for thee.

Colleen says: But wherever people lose their human rights, and wherever there are abused people, I beleive people have a moral obligation to speak up and help those who can not help themselves. The bell tolls for thee.

But to never lose sight that every human being deserves as much independence and role in the decisions which affect their lives as possible. When people can't help themselves, it is usually, in my experience, because they have been actively prevented from doing so.

Strange that when the Irish had their potato famine that the English took most of the food the Irish were able to produce and let them starve. Strange that when the Ukrainians had their potato famine that the Russians took most of the food the Ukrainians were able to produce and let them starve. I wonder how much of this is going on in Africa and the Middle-East.

War moves people off their lands and from the crops growing in their fields to refugee camps where food has to be brought in from outside. Seems like many human rights violations take place in refugee camps.

Colleen says: Maher Arar was fortunate because he was a Canadian and he had a wife who did not give up.

Abdullah Almalki is also fortunate that Maher Arar had a wife who did not give up. Seems that only the Liberals and Almalki's family knew that he was in Syria until Maher Arar came out during his statement and said he saw him there. Almalki's family were told to keep quiet, behave themselves and let the government handle it.

Colleen says: And this torture is being done under the authority of the US government. Of everything the Bush administration has done, for me this is the worst and the reason I have left America. (Well and also Canada is a principled nation, with some very nice people…but nothing is perfect)

First we had a story about Canadians and their green outfits:

Canadian troops not green with envy

When the full complement of about 750 Canadian soldiers arrives in Afghanistan next month, the people they meet will have no problem recognizing who they are. In a sea of desert tan and brown, the Canadians will be decked out in forest green.

The members of the advance team already on the ground in Kandahar are already standing out – but some troops waiting for their orders to leave don't seem to mind.

"It's my uniform," said Master Cpl. Perry Morrow. "I'd rather wear this than no clothes at all."

Chief of Defence Staff Ray Henault said on Friday that uniforms in desert camouflage are on order, but won't arrive until summer.

His comments came while visiting an armed forces base in Edmonton along with Defence Minister Art Eggleton,

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2002/01/19/troops_can020119.html

Then there was this picture of soldiers in green uniforms - with a caption saying that they were American soldiers with Taliban prisoners. Some people took a look at the picture and figured that they could not be American soldiers because all the American soldiers in Afghanistan were in tan uniforms. Meanwhile, the Opposition was asking what Canada would do when it captured prisoners because we had no place to hold them. Defence Minister Art Eggleton dismissed the question as "hypothetical" and said that he did not answer "hypothetical" questions. You see that photograph in the following:

Canadians have nowhere to keep captives

Canadian forces in Afghanistan will continue to turn over captives to U.S. forces because there's no other place to hold them. The Canadians don't have their own jails or confinement centres.

Defence Minister Art Eggleton confirmed on Tuesday that the team of Joint Task Force Two (JTF2) forces in Afghanistan since December have turned over prisoners to the Americans.

An Associated Press photo that ran in several newspapers last week showed commandos originally identified as U.S. troops but later said to be Canadians with Taliban prisoners.

In Ottawa, some politicians worry that by turning over captives to the U.S. forces, Canada is betraying its own values by subjecting the prisoners to the possibility of trials by military tribunals and death sentences.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2002/01/30/canada_captives020130.html

Video and audio tends to work but links don't because of the crash a few years back.

So now Canada is not turning prisoners over to the Americans any more but to Afghani authorities. The Conservatives say that Taliban prisoners routinely lie about being tortured.

The Conservatives present themselves as "tough on crime" which is usually a euphamism for the trampling of the rights of the innocent along with the guilty. Some of this is a smoke screen to prevent people from infringing on the "rights" of multinational corporations.

Colleen, what do you know about Karlheinz Schreiber?

Interesting and also sad to see that two trolls have completely taken over this thread and are just now jerking each other off.

This kind of offensive activity of baiting and trying to silence the folks who actually have relevant experience (in this case with Muslim women and Muslim countries) is rampant on right wing sites. I really did not expect it on CommonDreams, but it's clear that we have to expect it on any discussion site which begins to get a fair amount of traffic.

The latest sandbox peeing directed at my person by colleen in stream of unconsciousness South American (not even Mexican, but since she doesn't speak Spanish she wouldn't know the difference) street Spanish obscenities is a particularly flagrant example of the low level of the trolls that have begun posting on this site.

Vaudree I was just pointing out the fact that Islam is a religion not a race and I used examples....no need to dissect that. Was just clarifying that to people on this board who don't know the difference.

liberty:

But, you see, it is ALWAYS about race.

If it isn't, they'll distort it till it looks as if it is.

Religion has always been the mask of racism.

moonraven, talking about two women "jerking each other off" is not speaking, it is letting off steam.

We all let off steam.

I repeat, you educate a kid by teaching him or her the alphabet, NOT by telling them they are ugly and stupid for not knowing their letters.

To complete the metaphor, no one here knows all their letters and we can all serve to learn them a bit better. I want you to speak.

Moonraven, I can picture a time in the future where you an Colleen will become internet friends - I've seen it happen in real life. If you are both letting off steam, then why are you both getting even more steamed?

Polly is unplugging the kettle.

We all want the same things so we must have a few letter in common.

Do we all agree that Muslim women, collectively, have all the same virtues and vices we all do - collectively?

Are Muslim women helpless, passive, dependent and submissive? No more than we are! Some are and some aren't. It is not up to us to decide which are which because, unless one does something extremely heroic (ie Monia Maigh), we'll get it wrong as often as we get it right.

Do we like being told what to do? No. Are there those who want us women to be helpless, passive, dependent and submissive? Yes. Why? How do they plan to benefit by being our knight, or by our obedience, or by are dependence, or by our submission? The simple answer is power and/or greed. Every atrocity boils down to lust for power and/or greed.

Are all women the same. No.

Should we be dictating to other women what their needs are? No. Should we stand by while others are being harmed. Depends what we can do. If we can help, we help - to do anything else would be immoral.

Sugar coated abuse is not help. The person who says "You poor thing, how are you ever going to manage" is not there to help but to control.

What do you disagree with? What did I miss?

liberty, sorry, a bit bored because I am trying to work on something else and come here when I need a break from it.

If I got nothing to add then I have nothing to say. I tend not to waste posts on Ditto. On the other hand, it is rude not to respond to a post, which is why I try to find something to comment in another's post or offer a blanket apology when I comment on some people's posts but don't comment on everyone's post. As I should.

vaudree,

It's not my fault you were both caught with your pants down--and that it was not a pretty sight. You should be ashamed.

However, since you seem fanatically dead set on lecturing an educator about how to educate, let me indicate that to learn ANYTHING, one must first put oneself into a LEARNING POSTURE.

That posture has been largely absent on this thread, as you and several others have chosen to string together a bunch of gringo-centered assumptions about the world and the people outside the borders of the US and Canada and have done your best to post enough pontificating non-sequiturs and abusive language and personal attacks to effectively prevent folks who have RELEVANT experience and information that could actually provide a learning experience for those in a LEARNING POSTURE from doing anyting except playing Roadrunner to your Wile E. Coyote.

The creator of Wile E. Coyote, my old friend Chuck Jones (sadly, no longer with us) said that Wile E. was the "archetype of the FANATIC: Someone who redoubles his efforts when he's forgotten his aim".

Please be advised that I do not visit the Internet to make Internet penpals. I don't believe that this site should be treated as a lonely hearts chatroom.

Some of us are here to discuss issues, as well as to provide facts and information and opinions based on same and to listen to others who have information and reasoned opinions--and this poster, at least, would like to have an interchange with other posters with similar reasons for being here, and who can carry on at least a quasi-civilized debate.

moonraven says: a bunch of gringo-centered assumptions

What exactly are you saying - that I have assumptions which you disagree with. That part I got. Except that they are gringo-centric (a play on the term ethnocentric), in your opinion, I know very little about what things I have said that you approve of and what things I've said that you disapprove of or why.

Ok, that I presumed that my skin was fairer than yours because you talked about white people being prejudice. My error. If I hear a person complaining about a certain group in very general terms, I tend to assume that they are not part of that group which they are criticizing. When one is part of the group one is criticising, one focuses on specific things.

Any of the ideas you've heard from me that you approve of, disapprove of or figure should be expanded or modified? Or do you figure that because I am half irish and half french that my very act of participating in this conversation at all is an abomination? Hoping it is the former, since I like to see the good in people.

My memory is shot so if I bump into a month from now I may or may not remember you. Thus, the next time I see you it will be with no baggage.

Speaking of facts, I don't consider Muslim women to be "Damsels in Distress." I pointed out Monia Mazigh, Zarqa Nawaz and Malalai Joya as examples of strong Muslim women. I also pointed out that Muslim women (and Canadian women who are Muslims) have organised their own rights groups. My views may be coloured by the opinion that to call anyone a "Damsel in Distress" is very insulting. The Canadian media has done a good job of showing us strong Muslim women/Canadian women who are not afraid to give their opinion on various issues.

The other fact is that Muslim women (like all Canadians who are Muslim) are a diverse group and do not necessarily agree with each other on every single issue. Admit that when I speak of Muslim women, I am not talking about Muslim women who are American or Mexican because I haven't heard enough about them.

The belief that we should listen to Muslim women as to what their needs are and how they best feel they should be met is an opinion. On the surface, all women who are in abusive relationships need a safe haven and a means of gaining financial independence from the abuser - whether it be a job or welfare. However, there may be things that can help or hurt a woman wishing to escape such circumstances that a person from a different background may not either understand or think about. The same holds true of children who find themselves in abusive homes. And, eventually, there will be Muslim men seeking a safe haven away from an abusive spouse since there are women who beat their husbands in the rest of the populations.

It is a fact that, in Canada, Muslim women and men spoke up against Sharia Law because they believed it unfair to women and a cultural phenomenon rather than a religious phenomenon. It is also a fact that others in the Muslim community hold different opinions towards Sharia Law. It is a fact that enough Muslims spoke out against Sharia Law that it was was not implemented in Ontario. I do not know whether Sharia law has or has not been implemented any where in the US or Mexico.

It is an opinion that anything that violates the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is wrong. And there is a Hate Speech provision in there - though I think it would take a court of law to decide whether or not a person has, through spoken, signed or written words, engaged in Hate Speach. It is a fact that things that violate the Charter are legal in the US and that a lot of the Hate Literature comes to Canada from the US for that reason.

Is there an issue we should be talking about that we are not? Is there an issue we are talking about that we should not be?

Text of Canadian Hate Propaganda Legislation:

319. (1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

(2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)

(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;
(b) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;
(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or
(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada...

Definition of Identifiable group: In this section, "identifiable group" means any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_C-250

If you were really and truly interested in discussing the issues, what I looked like naked would be irrelevant.

I ruled everything else out.

I'm sure the women of RAWA would be very happy to receive assistance from any women in the US or in Canada or worldwide.

The author of this article, Soumaya Ghannoushi, herself wrote:

"There is no denying the manifold injustices that cripple the lives of many Muslim women and stunt their potential."

There should be world wide standards about how women's issues are addressed, applied to all women in every nation.

......................................

"(not even Mexican, but since she doesn't speak Spanish she wouldn't know the difference) street Spanish obscenities is a particularly flagrant example of the low level of the trolls that have begun posting on this site." moonraven

I just wonder who you are moonraven..that Spanish is from a mexican group Molotov (plus 2 words more ..which might be from a south American nation)..but it was also an example of how gringa can be a pejorative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frijolero_%28song%29

"Frijolero is a song from Molotov's 2003 record Dance and Dense Denso. Its lyrics comprise an interchange where characters trade racially loaded barbs at the Mexico-US border. "Frijolero" is a facetious literal translation of "beaner," an insulting American English term for a Mexican; the American character is described as "pinche gringo puñetero" (roughly, "Fucking wanker gringo"). The group won a Latin Grammy for the colorful rotoscoped video."

...........................

I sometimes hire speakers and pay for them and I'll do the graphic design and pay for the advertising. Some of the people I've arranged to speak and paid to speak are regular writers here at Commondreams ...Paul Loeb and Father John Dear.

And among many speakers, I have arranged for a speaker who spoke about the conditons for the Palestinians, and another who spoke about being a child soldier in Africa.

I would worry about having a speaker talk about women's rights in the ME because it could be used as a justification for war, which would not help women's rights. Women suffer in war possibly more than other groups.

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Merry Christmas

vaudree

I agree with a great deal of what you write.

I have not been closely following the Mulroney scandal...but it looks to me like typical political corruption with bribery.

I did not mean it quite literally..I wonder who you are philosophically.

I think you might be someone who is here to cause trouble for the left by being very extreme and attacking too easily anyone hwo disagrees with your extreme points of view. You are using attack techiques I've seen used by the right.

I think there was nothing wrong in what bligh was writing. Imo he was someone who was concerned about women in the muslim world and that seems like a legitimate concern to me. The question is how to address the problems that women face. imo women and other groups interested in their problems should unite internationally to encourage human rights for women.

What particularly caught my attention was bligh's repeated attempts to be polite and your repeated criticisms of his intellect.

You should have figured me out by now: Native American woman, chavista, lives in Mexico where she produces campesino theater and does consulting work for universities in Latin America and the Middle East and who has yes, nothing but contempt for Gringolandia--where I lived for alomost 50 years.

I THINK you meant who I am IDEOLOGICALLY.

Philosophically? Wittgensteinian.

If you want women to unite around human rights concerns:

1. Learn to LISTEN.

2. Live for an extended period of time in at least one other culture and travel extensively in others.

3. Stop telling everybody who disagrees with the gringo world view that they are racists picking on you.

4. Stop whining.

5. Stop behaving inappropriately to try to get attention.