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Muslim Women: Damsels in Distress?
The west should stop using the liberalisation of Muslim women to justify its strategy of dominance
It seems that Muslim women - particularly those living in western capitals- are destined to remain besieged by two debilitating discourses, which though different in appearance, are one in essence. The first of these is conservative and exclusionist, sentencing Muslim women to a life of childbearing and rearing, lived out in the narrow confines of their homes at the mercy of fathers, brothers, and husbands. Revolving around notions of sexual purity and family honour, it appeals to religion for justification and legitimisation. The other is a "liberation" discourse that vows to break Muslim woman's bondage and free her of the oppressive yoke of an aggressive, patriarchical, and backward society. She is a mass of powerlessness and enslavement; the embodiment of seclusion, silence, and invisibility. Her only hope of deliverance from the cave of veiling and isolation lies in the benevolent intervention of this force of emancipation. It will save her from her hellishly miserable and bleak existence, to the promised heaven of enlightenment and progress. It is a game of binaries that pits one stereotype against another: the wretched caged female Muslim victim and her ruthless jailer society against an idealised "west" that is the epitome of enlightenment, rationalism, and freedom. Those escapees who leave the herd are held up as living testimonies to the arduousness of transition from the twilights of tribe, religion and tradition, to the dawn of reason, individualism, and liberation. There is no denying the manifold injustices that cripple the lives of many Muslim women and stunt their potential. But these appear in this condescending liberation narrative as representative of the condition of the millions of Muslim women around the world and exclusive to them. There are no colours, tones, or shades here. There are no living real women, urban or rural, educated or illiterate, affluent or poor, Turkish, Malaysian, or Egyptian - differences so crucial in defining women's life chances and shaping their situations. All we know about this ghostly creature is her Muslim identity, as though she was entirely shaped and affected by religion and theology irrespective of social background, economic circumstances, political reality, or regional and local cultural traditions. Important as it is, legal and theological reform will on its own do little to improve the lot of impoverished, uneducated, or insecure women in Somalia, Iraq, or rural Bangladesh. The narrative revolves around a dehistoricised, universal "Muslim woman"; a crushing model that oppresses flesh and blood Muslim women, denies them subjectivity and singularity, and claims to sum up their lives with all their vicissitudes and details from cradle to coffin. It reserves for itself the right to speak for them exclusively, whether they like it or not. Representations of the Muslim woman serve a dual legitimising function, at once confirming and justifying the west's narrative of itself, and of the Muslim other. The victimised Muslim woman is the lens through which Islam and Muslim society are seen. In medieval times she was cast as an intimidating powerful queen or termagant (like Bramimonde in the Chanson de Roland, or Belacane in Parzival) reflecting an intimidating powerful Muslim civilisation. And when the power balance began to shift in Europe's favour in the 17th and 18th centuries, she was made to mirror her society's fallen fortunes. She turned into a harem slave, leading little more than a dumb animal existence, subjugated, inert, abject, powerless, and invisible. She is the quintessential embodiment of a despotic, deformed, and backward Islam. It is Europe, later the west, that must penetrate her iron cage and break her shackles. It must save the victim and civilise her oppressors. The more victimised "the Muslim woman", the greater the need for the liberated west to liberate her. The noble intervention is for her and in her interest, not for the west, or its interests. It was indeed no coincidence that a great many colonial officers and archivists devotedly recorded instances of barbarity among the colonised, practices like sati, the ban on widow marriage, or the practice of child marriage in India, or slavery and genital mutilation in Africa. Although these atrocities were not inventions, their chronicling had and still has a purpose: It provides the moral framework for intervention. As a couplet by Torquato Tasso puts it, And when her city and her state was lost, Then her person lov'd and honor'd most. But "love" and "honour" haven't exactly been the experience of Iraqi women when their cities fell under American occupation. Rights which took decades to secure have crumbled away in the space of months. From doctors, scientists, engineers or businesswomen, today they find themselves incarcerated in their homes unable to move around for fear of being kidnapped, raped, or assassinated. Those who escape the bombs and bullets of the occupying army, die at the hands of the Iraqi security forces and out of control extremist and sectarian militias which flourished since 2003, as Maggie O'Kane demonstrated in her moving piece on Cif yesterday. In the past three months 45 innocent women were murdered in cold blood in Basra. The truth is that just as there is a military machine of hegemony, there is a discursive machine of hegemony. When armies move on the ground to conquer and subjugate, they need moral and ideological cover. It is this that gives the dominant narrative of the "Muslim woman" its raison d'etre. No wonder then that the "Muslim woman" liberation warriors, the likes of Nick Cohen, Christopher Hitchens, and Pascal Bruckner, were the same people who cheered American/ British troops as they blasted their way through Kabul and Baghdad, and who will no doubt cheer and dance once more should Iran or Syria be bombed next. Soldiers shoot with their guns; they with their pens. They are hegemony's apologists. Without them the emperor stands naked. Soumaya Ghannoushi is an academic and freelance writer. She is a researcher at the University of London.
© 2007 The Guardian
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132 Comments so far
Show AllYes, claiming to invade West Asia to rescue women was nothing more than a cynical pretext. Yes, invading armies are brutal pitiless marauders. Even Muslim armies, yes?
But the systemic misogyny operating in Muslim countries needs to be corrected. And where is slavery still practised legally but in Muslim countries? Harem paintings notwithstanding, there is no way to pretty it up. Forgetting the brutalities that were part of Muslim invasions of Europe in the 7th and 8th centuries - even with a little gloss: "when the power balance began to shift in Europe's favour in the 17th and 18th centuries" - did you notice that? Did they go in with flowers and chocolate to win hearts and minds? Apparently parts of Europe were under Muslim subjugation - as far as Vienna, yes? Tarik's descendants got kicked out of Western Europe in 1491, BTW. So the Otmans tried again from the other end a couple of centuries later.
A jewel-studded padlock is still a padlock. Face it. Fix it. Don't export it.
Lovely prose, though.
Nukes, democracy, womens rights?
How bout this dominance you speak of is, quite obviously, for dominances sake.
Empowering and motivating Iraqis to international travel, that would have been a women empowering move. Bush via Bremer did bunches to bankrupt Iraqis, firing the military, eliminating tarriffs, dropping bombs in densely populated neighborhoods, hauling whole families off to jail no evidence necessary no charges needed.
Now empowering Iraqis to travel comes with the worry of international terrorism. Which I'm sure is by this brief mention dramatically overstated. I doubt world pleasure travelers to be much for bomb solving.
When someone really gets around to debullyifying this place, they won't bully up the moment they've taken out a bully. If in the first moment Saddam had been deposed, there was a poll for national direction carried out, Iraq would not have lost so many people. What's more is all that had died would have died fighting for Saddam, at Saddams orders.
Now the US military is killing people who are fighting for their families, fighting for the memory of those lost already, fighting to have the mass murderous occupier removed.
It is all but hopeless that anyone will ever order mass military hardware into a fight to more evenly distribute political power.
Recognizing monolithic organizational orders that are not universally beneficial and refusing them seems to me a solution. By this notion the soldiers cognizant of Bushes war crimes, made obvious by the homes demolished by bombs, walk away from the war, seeking passage from neighboring countries. The Iraqi legislators refuse Bremers orders, and order that tarriffs remain in place to protect local manufacturing. Presidents world wide would have to tread lightly as the refusals mount. Workers would walk away from dirty coal fired power plants until a nonpolluting upgrade was installed. Eating cow and pig protein would go by the wayside replaced by consumption of efficiently grown food. Police would prosecute injuries only, rather than possession. All McDonalds workers would be on strike until McDs served quality food...
Can you imagine?
Dan
rocyahsoul@yahoo.com
vaudree
I think some people have innate personalities that cause them to be controversial in any society they are in. Teenagers as a group have that tendency but most out grow it .
Hirsi Ali is an interesting woman who has on occasion lied under pressure. I support her in her right to be offensive if she chooses that because I support freedom of speech. I do not support the people who wish to kill her. I do not support violence.
Imo the solution is to educate and inform and have dialogues. War will set all this back.
Its a curious thing that over the centuries and across cultures women, who are one half of any population, have had so much prejudice and discrimination directed against them.
bligh
A friend of mine is in Turkey and wears the hajib and she can not get a good job and its depressing for her. She has an exceptioanlly out going and friendly personality and she is very intelligent, but the hajib is holding her career back.
Son still sleeping so can't use sound.
Colleen, saw a bit of Hirshi Ali's movie on line and it was a bit ridiculous. Hirshi Ali is tricky in that she does have the right to be as offensive as she wants to be, but I am a bit afraid that her stuff is being used to justify more Maher Arars in the future.
The only exception to the freedom of speech / freedom to be offensive rule is if one is promoting hatred against an identifiable group. Usually, it is only considered a hate crime if one recommends violence against a group and Hirshi Ali probably falls short of that - though I would not say the same of her fan base.
Did you catch The National last night were Iraqis desperate to get into Canada are buying fake documents from con artists? The attitude was that it was a shame that people just wanting a peaceful life are being ripped off and that only a small percentage of Iraqis who want to escape the violence and come to Canada can do so. It is not on line unless you watch last night's broadcast of The National before they put tonight's on line.
medusa, rape would not be mentioned in the Geneva Convention if it was not used as a weapon of war to terrorize and humiliate the enemy. Even Christopher Columbus raped - though I think he did so for his personal enjoyment because he was a disgusting piece of dirt. He says so in his own diaries - he was not ashamed of it.
Part of it is to distinguish between your own who should not be raped and the sub-human enemy which it was ok to rape - though I doubt that everyone who raped the enemy made that distinction.
In every war, they make the enemy sub-human because it is easier to kill and do horrible things to people that are deemed subhuman.
Think of the name you use. Could you see how Europeans would think dreadlocks look like snakes?
bligh - PUBLIC schools are for the PUBLIC. As far as I know, Muslims - hijab wearing nor non hijab wearing - are part of the public. Or are you going to ban the Huron Christmas Carol, Inuit throat singing, and hoop dancing from public schools as well? The crime against the Native peoples was not introducing them to European culture but in stripping them of their own.
In polytheism, when two tribes became friends, their gods did as well. In monotheism, one was expected to give up one's own gods to adopt the one god of the conquerors. Christians, Jews and Muslims worship differing interpretations of the same monotheistic god.
And no one should be forced to wear a burka or even a hijab if they don't want to. Though, even in public schools there are certain sparsities of clothing deamed unacceptable in students.
CBC stuff is easy to type in
The National
cbc.ca/national
The Fifth Estate
cbc.ca/fifth
CBC News Sunday
cbc.ca/sunday
The Hour
cbc.ca/thehour
On the Map
cbc.ca/onthemap
Now you just have to learn how to use the archives and you got loads of information you can access in seconds.
Before deeclaring war on Nazi Germany the USA did the frollowing:
1 Emptied all prisons.
2 Outlawed all Jim Crow practices.
3 Eliminated all Anti Semitism.
4 Welcomed Japanese-Americans as full US citizens.
5 Integrated schools, sports, jobs.
6 Waited until Germany changed itself into a peaceful democracy.
Vaudree, I would respond if I knew what the heck you were talking about. A secondary reason for the French to ban the head covering was that girls were being attacked, and in some cases raped for NOT wearing one.This included both Muslim and Christian girls. The ban is supported by a large majority of the teachers.
As far as I know, no Inuit girls are being attacked for NOT singing.
I am talking about what is going on in France and Quebec!
Of course it is wrong to force a woman to wear a burka. But it is equally wrong to force a woman not to wear one.
Yes, it is worse to threaten a person with death than it is to threaten a person with exclusion. However, it is surprising how much more dangerous the lives of those we wish to exclude tend to become.
There is hate behind the idea of telling a girl to choose between her hijab and her right to an education. There is hate behind the idea of telling a girl to choose between her hijab and her right to participate in sports.
Hate has a tendency to spill over in violent acts.
Is it any less wrong to beat up a woman for wearing a hijab than it is to beat up a woman for not wearing one?
For the record, my son did have a substitute teacher who wore a hijab. It slipped and came apart in front of the whole class and she swore when it happened. That's all I know about her.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
In BC they have haggis filled spring rolls and egg rolls served with sweat and sour sauce. That is a distortion of both Chinese culture and Scottish culture.
The same thing happens when new immigrants (which are coming more from the Middle East than from Europe now) combine their culture traditions with traditional Quebec traditions.
By either expecting new Canadians to give up their own culture or to exclude themselves from Quebec society, it allows Quebec culture to remain undistorted.
Do you honestly consider it wrong to take the traditional French Canadian Tortiere and meatballs and. for Christmas brunch, serve it with samosa, spring rolls, potstickers, cabbage rolls and perogees. Or do you consider such mixing of foods blastomy?
That, in a microcosm, is what it is all about.
vaudree
The way to deal with the loss of human rights is not to focus on any one religion or location but to work on human rights for everyone in all nations..and then call it to world wide attention when those rights are denied and form coalitions with all manner of groups that will support human rights. The group I favor is Amnesty International. A problem for protecting human rights are the corporations or individuals that will support economically leaders or governments that deny human rights.
Economic sanctions must be used to proterct human rights.
I missed the National last night... As someone who is trying to stay in Canada I am very sympathtic to immigrants anyplace in the world. As an American I have resources and the worst that will happen to me is to be sent back to the US...many others would be sent back to very bad conditions. For that reason I can not be too critical of Hirshi Ali, because as an immigrant she experienced pressures to lie. Its true that Kenya is not a bad place comparitively...though. But once someone lies, its difficult to believe what else they are saying. I think Hirshi Ali has been used by the right wing to generate hatred for muslims. But at the same time, women are being mistreated and are not being given their human rights in many places.
"The best of a nation's character comes through in the actions of its heroes." That depends how it defines its heroes. Military ones? Men and women whose contributions are to wars and conflicts? Jack Bauers? Or are their heroes peace makers, healers, artists? The west tends to prefer the Jack Bauers. It's the east which gave us the Buddha, the reformed Ashoka and his renunciation of violence, Gandhi.
Did I miss something. I thought it was WMD that took the pure at heart to Eyeraq, then I was convinced it was to bring democracy there now it seems it was to liberate muslim womenfolk.
It was only 50 years ago that women were declared persons in our neck of the woods, if I am not mistaken and those menfolk were surprised when woman demanded all manner of other things to liberate themselves. It is still a work in progress and the movement has swept up any group of women who don't have or seem to have a choice, muslim women have been caught in the net so to speak. Something good, I am not speaking of the Eyeraq adventure as that is a March of Folly, will come out of all this and it maybe unsettling to either or both sides of the argument. I guess I am part of the "West" whatever that means, the writers brush is far too narrow to take in the "West" it just got the top of some of the lumps.
People have made some excellent points on this article.
But what about this idiot?
ALEXLAWYER:
"Let us be honest: the Koran sanctions rape. Mohammed himself raped many women and had a sexual relationship with his 6 year old cousin wife. Female captives and unbelievers are fair game, according to Allah, as are prepubescent girls. The Koran, which all Muslims believe is directly from Allah, says "the woman is your field, to plow her as pleases you."
Care to enlighten us on all the points you mentioned above.
This is exactly the reason why the West feels the need to rescue these women who are raped due to religious sanction. Why do you feel you have superior morals than these muslims can't differentiate between right and wrong like you obviously can and support and follow a Rapist?
Feel free to send me an email on nitskenny@yahoo.com with your explanation if you have any supporting evidence for your sanctioned rape claims. If not, I will understand that you're another one of those douchebags who use the internet to launch stink bomb using the cover of anonymity.
Colleen, what do you think of Peter Julian? This is the group I favour even more than Amnesty.
From Peter Julian's webpage:
NEWS: NDP BILL WILL HELP COMBAT GLOBAL HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS
OTTAWA – On the anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Peter Julian (Burnaby–New Westminster) introduced his private member's bill, to extend the authority of Canada's Federal Court to protect foreign citizens against violations of international law that occur outside of Canada. On December 10, 1948, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations.
The International Promotion and Protection of Human Rights Act (IPPHRA) was developed in close cooperation with Nick Milanovic, Adjunct Professor at the Department of Law of Carleton University, and Mark Rowlinson, Counsel for the United Steelworkers. It is endorsed by the Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers.
This innovative bill will hold violators accountable for gross human rights abuses regardless of where they take place. The IPPHRA would allow lawsuits in Canada for a host of universal human rights violations such as genocide and torture. In addition, it would prohibit activity that significantly degrades the environment or violates key international labour rights. The proposed legislation will allow the victims of these human rights abuses to obtain damages from the perpetrators of these injustices.
"It is high time that Canadian corporate entities lead by example and take responsibility for human rights abuses committed by their corporations outside Canadian borders," said Julian. "This bill would ensure that victims can seek compensation and would ultimately discourage corporations and individuals from disregarding basic human rights."
The United States has had legislation that grants its courts the authority to enforce international law since 1789. American courts have interpreted these laws to apply to a host of international human rights claims such as genocide and slavery. These laws have allowed lawsuits against dictators, generals, police and paramilitary groups as well as against corporations allegedly involved in various international human, environmental and labour rights abuses.
"This proposed legislation condemns international human rights abusers who are, in essence, enemies of all humankind. It is now time for each federal representative to declare themselves for the human dignity of each person on this globe by voting for this bill," stated Milanovic.
http://www.peterjulian.ca/page/565
Colleen says: But at the same time, women are being mistreated and are not being given their human rights in many places.
I don't deny that every thing she says (and worse) happens to women and children around the world. What makes me leary is the whole history of pointing out the other guys atrocities while justifying one's own.
The National is on line for 24 hours:
http://www.cbc.ca/national/latestbroadcast.html
Have you watched the Fifth Estate's "A Few Bad Apples" yet?
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/badapples/index.html
Colleen, best luck in staying in what used to be the best country in the world. Hope to get rid of Harper real soon.
Everyone else: Have to get ready to go out, will be back soon.
vaudree quotes from 10:48
.........................
"This innovative bill will hold violators accountable for gross human rights abuses regardless of where they take place"
"In addition, it would prohibit activity that significantly degrades the environment or violates key international labour rights. The proposed legislation will allow the victims of these human rights abuses to obtain damages from the perpetrators of these injustices."
"It is high time that Canadian corporate entities lead by example and take responsibility for human rights abuses committed by their corporations outside Canadian borders," said Julian. "This bill would ensure that victims can seek compensation and would ultimately discourage corporations and individuals from disregarding basic human rights."
........................................................
That is pretty much what I believe...which is why I would like to live in Canada. Those principles are mine also.
Use the courts, use sanctions, set up laws and form liasons with other groups that support human rights. Minimize aggression and maximize interactions between people with international exchange programs and with access to each other's news medias.
I'm not sure how that law would affect Canadian corporations and their viability internationally to make profits....sad to say. But in the long run Canada and its corporations would be known as fair and protecting human rights and that would be a gain in so many ways.
This next quote is right imo
"This proposed legislation condemns international human rights abusers who are, in essence, enemies of all humankind. It is now time for each federal representative to declare themselves for the human dignity of each person on this globe by voting for this bill," stated Milanovic."
Imo the US has developed pr to say that is what the US stands for...while the reality is less stellar. Imo the solutions are there, if we unite and use them and avoid war. War dismantles the thin veneer of civilization we have.
vaudree writes:
"What makes me leary is the whole history of pointing out the other guys atrocities while justifying one's own."
yes
Moonraven - I know it ticks you off that I formulate my own opinions through reading, international travel, debate, and using the college educated old noodle. I haven't met Hugo C though, so maybe you ARE more qualified in all areas and I should keep mouth shut. (Unless I agree with you).
Still, I think the women's groups are being cowardly for not speaking out for muslim women.
Best Regards and hope you have a nice holiday season
I'm sorry Moonraven, I didn't mean to cause you a meltdown. The Hugo comment was IRONY based on your meeting with him. (I don't THINK he eats babies). Haven't been called a "Gringo" since my old Mexican girlfriend in college broke up with me.Cool.
Point well taken on the men protesting, I tried at the local human rights festival, was told that it was "Islamophobic" to care about Muslim womens rights. Then again, the womans rights groups do exist to promote "womens rights", you would think they could spare a few words to the women struggling for more equality in the Middle East.
P.S. I have educated myself, I just don't agree with you.
Best wishes
Colleen, you just agreed with NDP policy. Not Liberal. Definitely not Conservative.
bligh says: Still, I think the women's groups are being cowardly for not speaking out for muslim women.
How can you be so sure that they re not! But what makes Muslim women any different than any other women?
Spartanladkenny and Alexlawyer - this is from the Koran, but it sounds familiar:
ARAR: And when I arrived in Syria 2 months later I requested a copy of the Koran after one of the consular visits and they gave it too me. And most of the time I read the story of the prophet Joseph…
It's a Biblical story, and um, where his brothers conspired and put him in a dry well and after 40 years he became um, I mean they meet together again and at that time he was, he was the Finance Minister in Egypt after spending 7 years in prison.
So that kind of story, whenever I read it I used to cry a lot , so I felt very connected to that story because I was in a very similar position and actually told this to my wife in one of the letters I dictated to the consul. I told her I am innocent and I want to teach Baraa my daughter this story and I want her to stay proud of her father who is an innocent man and he was put in jail unjustly.
Monia: actually I did I talked to Baraa about it my daughter about it, and I told her it is very important even though we don't know where your Father is going to be out, we should um stay close together and um you should be proud of your Father. And um, she kept saying he's the best Dad. And I also talked to her about what he wanted her to know about the story of Joseph, which in Arabic we say Yussef but it is the same prophet, but is a fascinating story and I think uh it helped not only her but it helped me.
http://www.cbc.ca/sunday/coverstory_maherarar.html
Dafoe says: Did I miss something. I thought it was WMD that took the pure at heart to Eyeraq, then I was convinced it was to bring democracy there now it seems it was to liberate muslim womenfolk.
I thought FOX said it was about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's cheap suit - oh, that was Iran. Think it is something about cuts and the president having the runs. Seriously, if Canada thought there were WMD to begin with we would have been involved in Iraq. We have a large population of Mennonites and they kept us up on Iraq.
Dafoe says: It was only 50 years ago that women were declared persons in our neck of the woods, if I am not mistaken and those menfolk were surprised when woman demanded all manner of other things to liberate themselves.
Canadian women became persons on October 18, 1929. You heard of the Person's case and the Famous Five?
Emily Murphy
Nellie McClung
Irene Parlby
Henrietta Muir Edwards
Louise McKinney
My two maternal great grandmothers were fans of Nellie McClung. Unless you are epileptic, McClung was the Champion. Her grandson, the judge, is a bit of a jerk, though.
Here is McClung's minute - that is Duff Roblin's grandfather she is talking to.
http://www.histori.ca/minutes/minute.do?id=10643
Come to think of it, Monia deserves her own minute as well.
Pussy cat pussy cat
Where have you been
I've been to London
To visit the Queen
Just good clean living, Islamophobia (keeps me young), and tormenting "Gringophobics" ( a known medical disorder from south of the border)like yourself. Always an enjoyable experience moonraven. keep well
They do. I teach at one of them. (financial subjects and self-defense for women) thanks. Am thinking about taking a couple classes myself. ( I live next to a large university)
Well, have to go pick up the kids.
have a great holiday
As an Indian Muslim living in US I happened to experience both types of people who are staunchly for their version of modesty in women and those who view their own FREE lifestyles as a better way of living. We can all have strong opinions on what should be the way to live but in the end it is a matter that needs to be decided by women themselves.
Since time immemorial women have been oppressed by men regardless of faith. To assume that muslim women or rather women in the east are oppressed more than the so called liberated western women is not just a narrow view it lacks practical analysis of real ground conditions. I have asked many muslim women whom I know personally if they feel suffocated by the restrictions on them. I have never heard even a single one of them complain about their hijabs nor about their families expecting them to maintain modesty in clothing and behavior.
For the record, the definition of modesty in Islam is very similar to that in many eastern cultures. A Hindu woman values the same things that a muslim woman does. That doesn't mean Western women lack modesty but its a matter of perspective. Time and again I have heard my American friends say that they would die if they had to wear a hijab. I agree. Nobody is asking you to do the things muslim women do. But the fact of the matter is most muslim women do it on their own. It is an unknown fact that Islam has defined hijab for men and women. Men are SUPPOSED to maintain respectful behavior towards women at all times. Islam goes to the extent of disallowing more than one look at women who are not your own. The way women are supposed to be punished for not maintaining modesty laws, there are strict regulations for men as well. Obviously, all societies are male dominant and hence the male hijab gets pushed onto the back burner while we focus more on women. In extremist societies women get blamed for all the wrongs in the society, but isn't that the case since life began? Don't we blame Eve for the eternal sin because of which we had to leave the GARDEN.
Coming back to the article - the western attitude towards Islam and muslims has been documented in multiple history books ever since the muslims conquered most of Europe. The Arabs who were considered to be scum and a bunch of blood-feudal desert animals actually reformed themselves and formed a unified state which was strong enough to overpower the biggest empires at the time. So we hear western historians describe muslims as Mohammedans, followers of Mahomet who had harems and indulged in orgies and molested young girls which the west looked down upon. The same stories continue to this day and is being implemented in western imperialist adventures in the middle east trying to spread the message from the CIVILIZED world. Arabs are still considered scum along with their religion. The same ideologies get attached to treatment of their women. Even Churchill has a famous remark about Muslims where he generalizes the effect of Islam on men that makes them do all things evil.
I agree that some Muslim women need help but not your pity. There's a subtle but huge difference between the two! If one understands it he/she will find the solution for it as well.
bligh
You are a nicer person than I am.
Well said Spartanladkenny.
Spartanladkenny, I wear any kind of head wear in the summer I get heat stroke - thick hair. No one is ever going to get me to wear a bicycle helmet let alone a kerchief in the summer! So, no one is forcing me to wear a hijab or a ball cap or anything. But if you want to wear any of those things - it is your choice.
Believe that there should be sports hijabs so that heat stroke can be avoided in the summer - but there is already a winter sports hijab - it is called the balaclava.
Spartanladkenny says: In extremist societies women get blamed for all the wrongs in the society, but isn't that the case since life began? Don't we blame Eve for the eternal sin because of which we had to leave the GARDEN.
Please don't ever blame Stephen Harper on women! ;)
Does the Garden of Eden you refer to exist also in the Koran? Is Lilith, Adam's disobedient first wife in there as well?
BTW - in French Yves is a male name - Adam and Yves.
I heard that story of the Nagini - snake people who could turn into women to seduce men. Seems that historically the King in the area married a woman from the Naga tribe and the person wanting to replace him used this story to turn the population against the otherwise peaceful Naga tribe. This guy (can't remember his name) said that the Nagas hand WMD which they could turn invisible so that you could not see them.
Moonraven Are you talking about The White Man's burden?
``Let us be honest: the Koran sanctions rape. Mohammed himself raped many women and had a sexual relationship with his 6 year old cousin wife. Female captives and unbelievers are fair game, according to Allah, as are prepubescent girls. The Koran, which all Muslims believe is directly from Allah, says "the woman is your field, to plow her as pleases you."
The Bible contains its share of misogyny and violence, too.
Religious literalism, taking texts from barbaric bronze-age tribes as divine revelation, is always and everywhere dangerous.''
Factually incorrect. Islam considers rape to be a sin and a crime which is is severely punishable. Islam's prophet had a number of wives in his later life, after being monogamous for several years. He married women, mostly widows to support them after they had nobody left, as well as marrying some orphans to support them. Consensually, of course.
The Kuran says that men are the garments of women and women are the garments of men. The verse about women being the fields of men does NOT mean that men have the right to rape women, or treat them in a way inconsistent with their own wishes. Marriage against the will of a spouse is null and void under Islamic law.
Moonraven you're amazing! I've traveled widely in the Islamic world myself and how you describe the Gulf brings back memories of my own trips. Its amazing the level of ignorance about Muslim women on this board and all I can say is it proves the author's point. I'm a Muslim woman, a convert though of Irish descent married to a Muslim American man. If people actually listened to Muslim women instead of always trying to speak for us I believe there would be far less ignorance.
One more thing to add Afghan women are incredibly strong dynamic women, I count them amongst my sister-in laws! Prior to the Taliban and starting with Zaher Shah the former King in the 1950's Afghan women particularily those in Kabul were attending university, holding jobs, removing the veil and active members of society. War changed all that and the Taliban did too. By the way the Taliban are backed by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and not by the Afghan people. The BBC did a poll recently and 95% of those polled were supportive of a Taliban-free Afghanistan and a democractic Afghanistan.
I think that they would like to get rid of the Northern Alliance as well as the Taliban.
LEE ANN G: Thank you for your excellent commentary, it adds dimension to what I wrote.
BLIGH & GREASEMAN: By pointing out that the US needs to get its own house in order, does not present the mutually exclusive notion that it ought do nothing elsewhere. If a doctor is drunk, he should not be doing surgery.
OLD BADGER, TOO: Great points on heroism.
SPARTANMAN KEN: What if a sort of cultural version of "Stockholm Syndrome" applied and by that I mean, people get enculturated into long established rituals they TAKE for norms. Just because the women help to promote a system does not mean that is ultimately a "choice." There is choice taken from a level of realization and choice that is robotic in nature. Until a self has awakened, the vast majority will go along with the cultural/religious milieu it finds itself within. A portion are born rebels and will question. Some of these will out of frustrated anger become society's "criminals," and some will become its visionaries.
Growth tends to happen most at the fringes.
Vaudree agreed and most Afghans would agree with you also. The warlords all need to be brought to justice. Many of them are greedy, violent, and well-known rapists (both of women and of men). My husband dreams of a Nuremberg style war crimes tribunal for them along with the Taliban. I doubt he'll ever get his wish.
dcbeltway: I agree. I certainly would not be so arrogant and presumptious as to "speak for" Muslim women--nor for Latin American women.
I also would not accept for a nanosecond being spoken for as a Native American woman.
Here in Latin America speaking for indigenous people was called "indigenismo"--and it has a VERY bad smell to it: the worst kind of condescension.
Speaking for women is "paternalism"--regardless of whether a man or a woman is doing the speaking.
This kind of horseshit is why our species is barreling over the cliff into the abyss of history.
dcbeltway - just repeating what I've heard others say.
Moonraven, in Canada, Phil Fontaine, as the elected Chief of the Assembly of First Nations (afn.ca), has a mandate to speak for the Native Peoples of Canada, but not for the Metis people or Inuit. The AFN has dealings with The National Congress of American Indians. If it is felt that he is not representing his people properly, at the next election, they will replace him with someone else.
Personally, I just speak for myself being neither Native, Metis nor Inuit. Though, it seems that, because of my surname, people assume that I am either of the former.
Remember Maher Arar's wife?
Monia Mazigh to Write Memoir
Doug Pepper, President and Publisher McClelland & Stewart, today announced the acquisition of a memoir by Monia Mazigh, wife of Maher Arar.
This book will be the first personal account from the Arar family about Arar's abduction by the American Government, torture by the Syrian Government, and the fight for justice after his return to Canada.
The book will recount Monia Mazigh's very personal story of the fight to rescue her husband, the impact on her family and their daily life as they struggled with Maher Arar's kidnapping, and then his return, physically and emotionally ravaged, perhaps forever.
Monia Mazigh has chosen to share her story to help her come to terms and digest all that has happened to her and her family, and to inform the public and the world about how extraordinary rendition and other 'anti-terrorist' methods destroy innocent lives and families. (cont)
http://iqra.typepad.com/read/2007/12/monia-mazigh-to.html
The Maher Arar Story - According to Hansard:
http://thomhartmann.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4061097651/m/3901028782?r=3901028782#3901028782
(skip two long monologues near beginning - the Hansards stuff is in colour)
As usual, you missed the point. I am beginning to think you are really deliberately obtuse.
Speaking for people of a group that you are not part of--for Muslim women, for example, when you are a gringo or canuck or anglo--take your pick--is unacceptable.
If a Native American is ELECTED to speak for a group of nations, that is an entirely different case--and even someone as deliberately obtuse as you should be able to see that.
Here in Latin America we do not expect that an oak tree give us pears.
moonraven says: Here in Latin America we do not expect that an oak tree give us pears.
With all the frankenfoods out there don't be surprised if there is eventually an oak tree which bears pears. I can see someone wishing to develop a pear tree which withstands colder temperatures. Expectations concerning Oak trees and Pear trees depend on things aways staying the same - which they never do.
Star hockey player Vicky Sunohara was tickled pink at all the attention she was getting from the Japanese in during the Nagano Olympics because she was the only Japanese-Canadian hockey player at the games. Vicky Sunohara openly wondered if she would be supported by the Ukranian fans as well in a game she was playing later that day because she was also Ukranian-Canadian. There is no law saying she can't be both - though I'll let you decide what of Vicky Sunohara is Pear and what of Vicky Sunohara is Oak.
Way back, one could be kicked out of the Military for being openly gay. Today one can, not only be openly gay and serve in the Military, one can also be openly gay and married to another openly gay person who serves in the Military.
Way back, women were not allowed to serve on combat missions and the Silver Cross was only given to the mothers or wives of fallen soldiers. When Captain Nichola Goddard died while leading her troop in combat, her husband Jason Beam became the first man to receive the Silver Cross.
Personally, I think that Beam would have preferred not to be given this honour - since, to get the Silver Cross required the death of his wife (and, according to the televised eulogy, he was very much in love with her). Otherwise, from what I've heard, he was OK with it. And, in my opinion, it was only fair that he be given the honour.
Seems that the NDP has an openly gay Muslim human rights lawyer as a candidate running in the next election. Which group does he speak for? Gays? Muslims? Lawyers? The small group of people who are all three? The party is he running for?
moonraven says: As usual, you missed the point. I am beginning to think you are really deliberately obtuse.
No, I am just saying that there are exceptions (as there is always to anything).
I agree with you but I see an exception - an important one - when one is given a mandate to speak for a group.
Then again, those we choose to speak for us don't always. Both Harper and Bush were elected to speak for our respective nations but I think neither speaks for more than the oil companies and other CEOs. In contrast, Phil Fontaine can speak for Residential School survivors because he was one. And on other issues he is subordinated to the Assembly's Constitution and Objectives - so he isn't giving his own opinion but the opinion of the AFN - most of the time (humans cannot avoid giving an opinion no more than they can avoid breathing the air).
moonraven says: Speaking for people of a group that you are not part of–for Muslim women, for example, when you are a gringo or canuck or anglo–take your pick–is unacceptable.
There is a slight problem with that argument. I am a woman and Muslim women are also women. I am a Canuck and some Muslims are also Canucks. I am straight and some Muslims are also straight (you'd be surprised how many are not). I am mouthy and I presume that there must be some Muslims who are equally mouthy.
Seriously, unless I am parroting back things that I've heard others say, I am only speaking for myself. And it is because I know my fair complexion will insure that I won't be harassed at the border.
What about Muslim women married to Jewish men or Jewish women who marry Muslim men? Their offspring are the fruit of two trees. They are not one tree or another.
"Speaking for people of a group that you are not part of–for Muslim women, for example, when you are a gringo or canuck or anglo–take your pick–is unacceptable." moonraven
There is NOTHING arrogant about demanding human rights for people besides your own little subset of the human population and calling people names like gringo is pure prejudice!
And when people marched with Martin Luther King, MLK never said only blacks could speak for blacks. All people were asked to stop the prejudice that was killing blacks in America!
My email to Anne Applebaum, columnist at the the Washington Post.
In response to the column :
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/17/AR2007121701598.html
A Stanton For the Saudis
....................................................
Imo women in the west are certainly angered and outraged by how women in nations like Saudi Arabia are treated.
However there is a war drum beating now in Washington and waging war is not a way to help women in any nation.
Any strong condemnations of how women are treated could result in yet another justification for waging war.
Why don't you write a column about RAWA?
http://www.rawa.org/index.php
"RAWA is the oldest political/social organization of Afghan women struggling for peace, freedom, democracy and women's rights in fundamentalism-blighted Afghanistan since 1977."
This is what war has brought to Afghanistan according to the women of RAWA:
The US and Her Fundamentalist Stooges are
the Main Human Rights Violators in Afghanistan
RAWA communiqué on Universal Human Rights Day, Dec.10, 2007
The US and Her Fundamentalist Stooges are
the Main Human Rights Violators in Afghanistan
The US and her allies tried to legitimize their military occupation of Afghanistan under the banner of "bringing freedom and democracy for Afghan people". But as we have experienced in the past three decades, in regard to the fate of our people, the US government first of all considers her own political and economic interests and has empowered and equipped the most traitorous, anti-democratic, misogynist and corrupt fundamentalist gangs in Afghanistan.
In the past few years, for a thousand times the lies of US claims in the so-called "War on terror" were uncovered. By relying on the criminal bands of the Northern Alliance, the US made a game of values like democracy, human rights, women's rights etc. thus disgracing our mournful nation. The US created a government from those people responsible for massacres in Pul-e-Charkhi, Dasht-e-Chamtala, Kapisa, Karala, Dasht-e-Lieli, 65,000 Kabulis and tens of mass graves across the country. Now the US tries to include infamous killers like Mullah Omer and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar into the government, which will be another big hypocrisy in the "war against terror".
.........................................
Well there is more at the link.
The answer in my mind is to emphasize human rights for people around the world..rather than attempting to export a specific political system like western democracy with war.
And the growth of human rights will imo occur with nations, people and NGOs and religious groups coming together to give us all our rights. And that will not occur in a war zone and with belligerance.
It will occur with economic incentives and pressure groups uniting to force human rights as a world wide standard.
But of course you can't write about RAWA, because they are not politically aligned with you. Your agenda is not to help women but to promote an attack upon muslim nations.
And thank you
bligh
for expressing a concern about women and their human rights. We are all in this together.
Colleen, I can be every nationality that Moonraven is and there would still be a difference because of my fair skin - many of the border guards who engage in racial profiling can't tell the difference between Sikh and Mexican (according to a former prof). One has to wonder how Shaun Majumder who can trace his Newfie roots all the way back to the 1700's can successfully portray a terrorist on 24.
And I don't mind being called a "gringo" because, as a Canadian, I have no "green card". I also had a father who used to annoy my mother on purpose by saying things like "anglo-sexless" and "bees sting to protect their honey but WASPs sting for no reason at all" and that the english invented round plates when square plates would be more efficient just to get a rise out of her. Anyway, compared to all these fake Koran revelations, Moonraven is quite harmless.
colleen says: There is NOTHING arrogant about demanding human rights for people besides your own little subset of the human population
I think that all three of us agree with that (from my interpretation of what everyone is saying). And I think that all three of us agree that depicting Muslim (or any group of) women as "Damsels in Distress" is insulting. And none of us three are advocating a "father knows best" attitude or approach.
Supporting RAWA seems like a way of supporting rights for Afghani women without trampling all over the rose bushes and taking over (remember the link from before). The other way seems to be listening to RAWA and then going into question period and demanding the type of help that RAWA finds most useful.
Re Arrogance: I am Canadian and I do believe that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms trumps all. In my arrogance, I also believe it superior to the American Bill of Rights - even before it was watered down. And, for me, this is about human rights and human rights is not about making someone else more like me. Human rights is about choice and dignity and respect for others - it is not specifically about Muslim woman or even about women. If one human being is mistreated, who are we to remain silent! Ok, we do remain silent, but we are assholes for doing so.
Anne Applebaum mentioned the death of Aqsa Parvez. There can be many reasons behind what happened - none of them acceptable. I think it best to wait until the thing goes to court before commenting on that. What I do know is that Harper purposely gutting funding for women's programs and social programs in general - including those programs offering shelter to those seeking sanctuary away from abusive homes. Harris and Eves were no better in their day.
Unlike the murder of Jassi Kaur Sidhu, the murder of Aqsa Parvez seems less a preplanned honour killing and more about a man who could not control his temper (or never tried to). The Fifth Estate video of "The Murdered Bride" is still up and I heard that someone has made the story into a movie also.
Note that the US is not at war with Saudi Arabia. BTW - how many of those 911 hijackers came from Iraq?
Saudi Arabia's treatment of rape victim unconscionable
by MCC President Farzana Hassan
http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/20071128.html
"And colleen: You are another ignorant bigmouth. Here in Latin America ALL folks from the US are called gringos. It's easier to say than norteamericano."moonraven
moonraven, you are a rude and offensive personlity with very strong opinions that has no difficulty in insulting and condemning other people. You are also self aborbed and arrogant.
And I can understand why you think gringo is allright..because that is what they are calling you... but read this:
Word History: In Latin America the word gringo is an offensive term for a foreigner, particularly an American or English person. But the word existed in Spanish before this particular sense came into being. In fact, gringo may be an alteration of the word griego, the Spanish development of Latin Graecus, "Greek." Griego first meant "Greek, Grecian," as an adjective and "Greek, Greek language," as a noun. The saying "It's Greek to me" exists in Spanish, as it does in English, and helps us understand why griego came to mean "unintelligible language" and perhaps, by further extension of this idea, "stranger, that is, one who speaks a foreign language." The altered form gringo lost touch with Greek but has the senses "unintelligible language," "foreigner, especially an English person," and in Latin America, "North American or Britisher." Its first recorded English use (1849) is in John Woodhouse Audubon's Western Journal: "We were hooted and shouted at as we passed through, and called 'Gringoes.'"
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gringo
You are not dealing with bligh now and I won't take your sh** In my opinion you are a racist and prejudice and I will always challenge prejudice especially based upon race, sex or national identity.
"Typical Ugly American arrogant bullshit." moonraven
Yup thats you all right!
vaudree
You are all right by me. You are trying to find solutions to difficult issues and doing it with some respect for others (well... you are Canadian)
There are about one billion muslims in the world..and that means about half a billion are women. These women have very diverse lives and experiences and many different opinions. No one group of people could speak for all of them (but you know this already...sigh)
moon raven
you are ignorant imo!!!
You have ZERO infomration about me..but you are so self aborbed and sure you are right (also called arrogant) You will make up in your mind whatever story you want to describe the other person.
I KNOW spanish and i have someone in my home from South America.
"con diverso significos"
In some places gringo has the meaning of ni**er (offensive word describing blacks)
Gringo can be used affectionalty or with contempt
If you act in person as you write here I would guess its with contempt in your case.
Islam is not a race people its a religion. Muslims come from all ethnicities. There are also converts of all ethnicities. I'm Irish American and a Muslim convert for example. However, there are white Muslims in Europe known as the Albanians and Bosnians. Arabs for instance make up only 20% of all the 1 billion Muslims on earth. The largest percentage of Muslims come from Asia Indonesia then India. This is the same for Jews and Christians.
"Folks like you never learn anything because they are too busy telling everybody that they know it all." moonraven
Go see a psychologist or a psychiatirst ...you are projecting.
what do you know of me...ZERO NOTHING ZIP
but you certainly project onto me all kinds of things...seek help and stop attacking people on the internet.
"Speaking for people of a group that you are not part of–for Muslim women, for example, when you are a gringo or canuck or anglo–take your pick–is unacceptable." moonraven
That sentence is offensive...but lets take you at your word..You may speak only for women who are exactly like you..all 5 of them.
How good is your spanish?
pinche gringa punetera triple hijueputa
moonraven says: I am still a US citizem.
Which means you are still technically a gringo. Though, the word "gringo" like the word "WASP" tends to be used to refer mainly to white Americans. It is better than the term Carolyn Parrish used - though she later said that she was not referring to all Americans but only to those in the Bush administration. Parrish has her own Wikipedia page. Yes she did kiss the Bush doll after stomping on it. There is a bit of Parrish in everyone - especially you.
moonraven says: I am still a US citizem, so I have every right to tell you to educate yourself about the world you live in before shooting off your fat mouth. Overthrow your genocidal government.
We have been trying, but it takes all three Opposition Parties to defeat the Government in an Non Confidence vote and the Liberals are chicken shits.
You educate a kid by teaching him or her the alphabet, NOT by telling them they are ugly and stupid for not knowing their letters.
moonraven says: You are the one doing the racial profiling, vaudree! / Here's an example of your ignorance: You assume that because I live in Mexico and because I am Native American that I have dark skin. / I don't. / I also have strawberry blond hair. / Somewhere back in the geneological day there was a Norwegian in the mix.
I assumed because you kept calling me "gringo" that you weren't part "gringo" yourself. I did say that I could be Native and Hispanic and Latin American and still have fair skin - you said you moved to Mexico but were born in the US and I tend to see Mexico as part of North America because Mexico is part of NAFTA (so I never assumed you were Mexican).
I haven't had strawberry-blond hair since I was a kid - it is 1/3 blond, 1/3 red and 1/3 brown. My brother whose hair and skin colour resembled Ronald McDonald's is convinced because of our surname that he's Metis even though my cousin traced my dad's side of the family back to 1608.
You see a lot of fair skinned people in North Dakota/Minnesota who say that have Norwegian/Sweddish/German/Native ancestory. My son has a friend named K who has fairer skin that I do (which is unusual) and white blond hair who he says is 1/4 native. He has another friend named K (popular name in this complex) who is Blative (Black father Native mother) who looks Phillipino but whose brothers looks Mullatto. Some status Indians have trouble presenting their treaty card at the border because they look more Black than native.
You get two sisters with the same parents and one can pass for white and the other can't - they have different issues. The former can gain preferential treatment by turning her back on her identity (which causes another set of problems). The latter may face more discrimination, but doesn't have to worry about being found out for living a lie or feeling like they don't truly belong anywhere.
Did you ever see Southern Comfort, about a woman who had a sex change operation to turn her into a man and was dying of Cancer of the uterus? Seems that he "passed" so well that the KKK tried to sign him up as a member. The way people react to you depends on how you look.
I am very allergic to air freshioner and if a person coated with airfreshioner (it coats the air and anything that comes in contact with the air) or is wearing air freshioner laced home care products comes to close to me, I have trouble walking and slur my speech. They see me as repulsive because I stagger and not the Sniffhouser for wearing strong stuff and hurting people. I am racist against Sniffhousers - people who insist on turning their bodies into portable sniffhouses.
dcbeltway says: Islam is not a race people its a religion. Muslims come from all ethnicities.
"Islam" seems to be a religion the same way "Protestant" is in that there seems to be many distinct branches of Islam. That is one debate among Canadian Muslims who grew up elsewhere - of one's traditions, what is Islam and what is cultural.
dcbeltway says: There are also converts of all ethnicities. I'm Irish American and a Muslim convert for example. However, there are white Muslims in Europe known as the Albanians and Bosnians.
Does the life experiences of being a "white Muslim" in the US differ from being a Muslim person in the US whose features are more Black or Middle-Eastern? Does it make a difference whether one is a convert or born into a religion?
In a world where there was no racism it would not.
colleen says: moonraven, you are a rude and offensive personlity with very strong opinions
You should notice that moonraven isn't actually sharing her own opinions in the last while but chastising us for not being able to guess what her opinions are - there is a difference. I'm not a mind reader - are you? My dad died in October 2001 and my mom said today that she has a three boxes of stocking stuffers she doesn't know what to do with. My dad would mention once when he bought it (in July) who they were for and if my mom could not remember who they were for by the time Christmas came around he got all offended and said to forget about it.
moonraven says: We are talking about Latin America. It DOES exist–just SOUTH of the fortress USA obscene wall. (Which at least was built largely by the labor of undocumented workers….)
Yes, and many corporations and wealthy farmers benefit from the cheap labour. On one side of their mouth, the US government calls Mexicans "criminals" that have to be kept out of the country and on the other side of their mouths they welcome the cheap labour with open arms. This duplicity keeps the undocumented worker from standing up for themselves because they are welcome as long as they put up with shit.
Mexico is part of North America. Latin America is like Chile, Cuba and Brazil. Ok, I guess technically Mexico is classified with those other countries, but one tends to distinguish between Mexico and Latin America.
I am not going to refer to a French dictionary when looking up the word "gringo" because, despite the fact that I am half French myself, I can't speak it.
Familiar with Folklorama? All the cultural traditions below are now Canadian cultural traditions:
WEEK ONE
Brasilian Pavilion
Chile Lindo Pavilion
Mexican Pavilion
http://www.folklorama.ca/folklorama_pavillions_week.php?Week=1
WEEK TWO
Chilean Pavilion
Cuban Pavilion
El Salvador Pavilion
http://www.folklorama.ca/folklorama_pavillions_week.php?Week=2
colleen says: There are about one billion muslims in the world..and that means about half a billion are women. These women have very diverse lives and experiences and many different opinions. No one group of people could speak for all of them (but you know this already…sigh)
I think that this is obvious. Not only do the various Muslims groups who speak for Canadian Muslims say that but Muslims would not be blowing up mosques in the Middle East unless they saw themselves as being distinct from the particular group of Muslims that particular Mosque belonged to.
However, when speaking about Canadian Muslims - "them" is part of "us." Canadians were not outraged because Maher Arar was Muslim, they were outraged because Americans were doing this to a Canadian citizen.
And we are outraged about Omar Khadr too (some of us any way) - the child soldier with the father from hell. If Khadr's father sold him into prostitution rather than pressed him into military service, it would be easier for Americans to see him as the victim he was. If Khadr ran away, where would he run to? He had no place to go.
Anyone take a look at which Conservative MPs made it into Harper's cabinet and which Conservative MPs didn't.
GLOSS OF WIK (yes, you can get a gloss of nonEnglish entries by either putting a phrase in search or the URL in search (if you are telling people to "go home" then you don't like them much):
Gringo is a term used in Spanish and Portuguese, with diverse meaning, often badly interpreted by the English-speaking people.
In general form the term is applied to foreigners who speak in a language that is not understood by people who speak Spanish. The term has been applied according to the times and regions, Germans, French, Italian English and, specially, to the Canadian Americans and.
In certain Latin American countries, like Mexico, Ecuador, Panama,Peru,Central America, Colombia, Venezuela or Chile the term are applied exclusively for the American citizens.
vaudree
The average American has no clue who Maher Arar is...sad to say.
But it was a terrible outrage and it was one of the reasons why I wanted to move to Canada. Canada accepts responsbility and tries to rectify injustice. Americans too often use denial and cover up. But look at Moonraven as an example of what some Americans are like...on both the right and the left ...just so obnoxious and certain of being right while using insult to silence dissent....