The west should stop using the liberalisation of Muslim women to justify its strategy of dominance
It seems that Muslim women - particularly those living in western capitals- are destined to remain besieged by two debilitating discourses, which though different in appearance, are one in essence.
The first of these is conservative and exclusionist, sentencing Muslim women to a life of childbearing and rearing, lived out in the narrow confines of their homes at the mercy of fathers, brothers, and husbands. Revolving around notions of sexual purity and family honour, it appeals to religion for justification and legitimisation.
The other is a "liberation" discourse that vows to break Muslim woman's bondage and free her of the oppressive yoke of an aggressive, patriarchical, and backward society. She is a mass of powerlessness and enslavement; the embodiment of seclusion, silence, and invisibility. Her only hope of deliverance from the cave of veiling and isolation lies in the benevolent intervention of this force of emancipation. It will save her from her hellishly miserable and bleak existence, to the promised heaven of enlightenment and progress.
It is a game of binaries that pits one stereotype against another: the wretched caged female Muslim victim and her ruthless jailer society against an idealised "west" that is the epitome of enlightenment, rationalism, and freedom. Those escapees who leave the herd are held up as living testimonies to the arduousness of transition from the twilights of tribe, religion and tradition, to the dawn of reason, individualism, and liberation.
There is no denying the manifold injustices that cripple the lives of many Muslim women and stunt their potential. But these appear in this condescending liberation narrative as representative of the condition of the millions of Muslim women around the world and exclusive to them. There are no colours, tones, or shades here. There are no living real women, urban or rural, educated or illiterate, affluent or poor, Turkish, Malaysian, or Egyptian - differences so crucial in defining women's life chances and shaping their situations.
All we know about this ghostly creature is her Muslim identity, as though she was entirely shaped and affected by religion and theology irrespective of social background, economic circumstances, political reality, or regional and local cultural traditions. Important as it is, legal and theological reform will on its own do little to improve the lot of impoverished, uneducated, or insecure women in Somalia, Iraq, or rural Bangladesh.
The narrative revolves around a dehistoricised, universal "Muslim woman"; a crushing model that oppresses flesh and blood Muslim women, denies them subjectivity and singularity, and claims to sum up their lives with all their vicissitudes and details from cradle to coffin. It reserves for itself the right to speak for them exclusively, whether they like it or not.
Representations of the Muslim woman serve a dual legitimising function, at once confirming and justifying the west's narrative of itself, and of the Muslim other. The victimised Muslim woman is the lens through which Islam and Muslim society are seen. In medieval times she was cast as an intimidating powerful queen or termagant (like Bramimonde in the Chanson de Roland, or Belacane in Parzival) reflecting an intimidating powerful Muslim civilisation. And when the power balance began to shift in Europe's favour in the 17th and 18th centuries, she was made to mirror her society's fallen fortunes. She turned into a harem slave, leading little more than a dumb animal existence, subjugated, inert, abject, powerless, and invisible. She is the quintessential embodiment of a despotic, deformed, and backward Islam.
It is Europe, later the west, that must penetrate her iron cage and break her shackles. It must save the victim and civilise her oppressors. The more victimised "the Muslim woman", the greater the need for the liberated west to liberate her. The noble intervention is for her and in her interest, not for the west, or its interests.
It was indeed no coincidence that a great many colonial officers and archivists devotedly recorded instances of barbarity among the colonised, practices like sati, the ban on widow marriage, or the practice of child marriage in India, or slavery and genital mutilation in Africa. Although these atrocities were not inventions, their chronicling had and still has a purpose: It provides the moral framework for intervention.
As a couplet by Torquato Tasso puts it,
And when her city and her state was lost,
Then her person lov'd and honor'd most.
But "love" and "honour" haven't exactly been the experience of Iraqi women when their cities fell under American occupation. Rights which took decades to secure have crumbled away in the space of months. From doctors, scientists, engineers or businesswomen, today they find themselves incarcerated in their homes unable to move around for fear of being kidnapped, raped, or assassinated. Those who escape the bombs and bullets of the occupying army, die at the hands of the Iraqi security forces and out of control extremist and sectarian militias which flourished since 2003, as Maggie O'Kane demonstrated in her moving piece on Cif yesterday. In the past three months 45 innocent women were murdered in cold blood in Basra.
The truth is that just as there is a military machine of hegemony, there is a discursive machine of hegemony. When armies move on the ground to conquer and subjugate, they need moral and ideological cover. It is this that gives the dominant narrative of the "Muslim woman" its raison d'etre.
No wonder then that the "Muslim woman" liberation warriors, the likes of Nick Cohen, Christopher Hitchens, and Pascal Bruckner, were the same people who cheered American/ British troops as they blasted their way through Kabul and Baghdad, and who will no doubt cheer and dance once more should Iran or Syria be bombed next. Soldiers shoot with their guns; they with their pens. They are hegemony's apologists. Without them the emperor stands naked.
Soumaya Ghannoushi is an academic and freelance writer. She is a researcher at the University of London.
© 2007 The Guardian
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133 Comments so far
Show Allmoonraven
I have traveled to over 15 nations and one of my parents was not an American. I was an anthropology major in college and have been a member of MENSA as well as having lived in 3 other nations.
You are a person who does not listen and expects others to be "educated" so that they agree with you.
You are also repeatedly attacking people at Commondreams who do not agree with you.
I suspect you are trying to drive off people from posting here by being an unpleasant personality.
You should have figured me out by now: Native American woman, chavista, lives in Mexico where she produces campesino theater and does consulting work for universities in Latin America and the Middle East and who has yes, nothing but contempt for Gringolandia--where I lived for alomost 50 years.
I THINK you meant who I am IDEOLOGICALLY.
Philosophically? Wittgensteinian.
If you want women to unite around human rights concerns:
1. Learn to LISTEN.
2. Live for an extended period of time in at least one other culture and travel extensively in others.
3. Stop telling everybody who disagrees with the gringo world view that they are racists picking on you.
4. Stop whining.
5. Stop behaving inappropriately to try to get attention.
I did not mean it quite literally..I wonder who you are philosophically.
I think you might be someone who is here to cause trouble for the left by being very extreme and attacking too easily anyone hwo disagrees with your extreme points of view. You are using attack techiques I've seen used by the right.
I think there was nothing wrong in what bligh was writing. Imo he was someone who was concerned about women in the muslim world and that seems like a legitimate concern to me. The question is how to address the problems that women face. imo women and other groups interested in their problems should unite internationally to encourage human rights for women.
What particularly caught my attention was bligh's repeated attempts to be polite and your repeated criticisms of his intellect.
Colleen wrote:
"I just wonder who you are moonraven..that Spanish is from a mexican group Molotov (plus 2 words more ..which might be from a south American nation)..but it was also an example of how gringa can be a pejorative."
Your use of it is an example of how an ignorant gringa can make a fool of herself, and demean everyone else around her on an internet site.
I have no intention whatsoever of telling someone as obviously mean-spirited as you who I am.
Besides, it is none of your business.
vaudree
I agree with a great deal of what you write.
I have not been closely following the Mulroney scandal...but it looks to me like typical political corruption with bribery.
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Merry Christmas
I'm sure the women of RAWA would be very happy to receive assistance from any women in the US or in Canada or worldwide.
The author of this article, Soumaya Ghannoushi, herself wrote:
"There is no denying the manifold injustices that cripple the lives of many Muslim women and stunt their potential."
There should be world wide standards about how women's issues are addressed, applied to all women in every nation.
......................................
"(not even Mexican, but since she doesn't speak Spanish she wouldn't know the difference) street Spanish obscenities is a particularly flagrant example of the low level of the trolls that have begun posting on this site." moonraven
I just wonder who you are moonraven..that Spanish is from a mexican group Molotov (plus 2 words more ..which might be from a south American nation)..but it was also an example of how gringa can be a pejorative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frijolero_%28song%29
"Frijolero is a song from Molotov's 2003 record Dance and Dense Denso. Its lyrics comprise an interchange where characters trade racially loaded barbs at the Mexico-US border. "Frijolero" is a facetious literal translation of "beaner," an insulting American English term for a Mexican; the American character is described as "pinche gringo puñetero" (roughly, "Fucking wanker gringo"). The group won a Latin Grammy for the colorful rotoscoped video."
...........................
I sometimes hire speakers and pay for them and I'll do the graphic design and pay for the advertising. Some of the people I've arranged to speak and paid to speak are regular writers here at Commondreams ...Paul Loeb and Father John Dear.
And among many speakers, I have arranged for a speaker who spoke about the conditons for the Palestinians, and another who spoke about being a child soldier in Africa.
I would worry about having a speaker talk about women's rights in the ME because it could be used as a justification for war, which would not help women's rights. Women suffer in war possibly more than other groups.
If you were really and truly interested in discussing the issues, what I looked like naked would be irrelevant.
I ruled everything else out.
moonraven says: a bunch of gringo-centered assumptions
What exactly are you saying - that I have assumptions which you disagree with. That part I got. Except that they are gringo-centric (a play on the term ethnocentric), in your opinion, I know very little about what things I have said that you approve of and what things I've said that you disapprove of or why.
Ok, that I presumed that my skin was fairer than yours because you talked about white people being prejudice. My error. If I hear a person complaining about a certain group in very general terms, I tend to assume that they are not part of that group which they are criticizing. When one is part of the group one is criticising, one focuses on specific things.
Any of the ideas you've heard from me that you approve of, disapprove of or figure should be expanded or modified? Or do you figure that because I am half irish and half french that my very act of participating in this conversation at all is an abomination? Hoping it is the former, since I like to see the good in people.
My memory is shot so if I bump into a month from now I may or may not remember you. Thus, the next time I see you it will be with no baggage.
Speaking of facts, I don't consider Muslim women to be "Damsels in Distress." I pointed out Monia Mazigh, Zarqa Nawaz and Malalai Joya as examples of strong Muslim women. I also pointed out that Muslim women (and Canadian women who are Muslims) have organised their own rights groups. My views may be coloured by the opinion that to call anyone a "Damsel in Distress" is very insulting. The Canadian media has done a good job of showing us strong Muslim women/Canadian women who are not afraid to give their opinion on various issues.
The other fact is that Muslim women (like all Canadians who are Muslim) are a diverse group and do not necessarily agree with each other on every single issue. Admit that when I speak of Muslim women, I am not talking about Muslim women who are American or Mexican because I haven't heard enough about them.
The belief that we should listen to Muslim women as to what their needs are and how they best feel they should be met is an opinion. On the surface, all women who are in abusive relationships need a safe haven and a means of gaining financial independence from the abuser - whether it be a job or welfare. However, there may be things that can help or hurt a woman wishing to escape such circumstances that a person from a different background may not either understand or think about. The same holds true of children who find themselves in abusive homes. And, eventually, there will be Muslim men seeking a safe haven away from an abusive spouse since there are women who beat their husbands in the rest of the populations.
It is a fact that, in Canada, Muslim women and men spoke up against Sharia Law because they believed it unfair to women and a cultural phenomenon rather than a religious phenomenon. It is also a fact that others in the Muslim community hold different opinions towards Sharia Law. It is a fact that enough Muslims spoke out against Sharia Law that it was was not implemented in Ontario. I do not know whether Sharia law has or has not been implemented any where in the US or Mexico.
It is an opinion that anything that violates the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is wrong. And there is a Hate Speech provision in there - though I think it would take a court of law to decide whether or not a person has, through spoken, signed or written words, engaged in Hate Speach. It is a fact that things that violate the Charter are legal in the US and that a lot of the Hate Literature comes to Canada from the US for that reason.
Is there an issue we should be talking about that we are not? Is there an issue we are talking about that we should not be?
Text of Canadian Hate Propaganda Legislation:
319. (1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of
(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.
(2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of
(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.
(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)
(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;
(b) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;
(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or
(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada...
Definition of Identifiable group: In this section, "identifiable group" means any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_C-250
vaudree,
It's not my fault you were both caught with your pants down--and that it was not a pretty sight. You should be ashamed.
However, since you seem fanatically dead set on lecturing an educator about how to educate, let me indicate that to learn ANYTHING, one must first put oneself into a LEARNING POSTURE.
That posture has been largely absent on this thread, as you and several others have chosen to string together a bunch of gringo-centered assumptions about the world and the people outside the borders of the US and Canada and have done your best to post enough pontificating non-sequiturs and abusive language and personal attacks to effectively prevent folks who have RELEVANT experience and information that could actually provide a learning experience for those in a LEARNING POSTURE from doing anyting except playing Roadrunner to your Wile E. Coyote.
The creator of Wile E. Coyote, my old friend Chuck Jones (sadly, no longer with us) said that Wile E. was the "archetype of the FANATIC: Someone who redoubles his efforts when he's forgotten his aim".
Please be advised that I do not visit the Internet to make Internet penpals. I don't believe that this site should be treated as a lonely hearts chatroom.
Some of us are here to discuss issues, as well as to provide facts and information and opinions based on same and to listen to others who have information and reasoned opinions--and this poster, at least, would like to have an interchange with other posters with similar reasons for being here, and who can carry on at least a quasi-civilized debate.
moonraven, talking about two women "jerking each other off" is not speaking, it is letting off steam.
We all let off steam.
I repeat, you educate a kid by teaching him or her the alphabet, NOT by telling them they are ugly and stupid for not knowing their letters.
To complete the metaphor, no one here knows all their letters and we can all serve to learn them a bit better. I want you to speak.
Moonraven, I can picture a time in the future where you an Colleen will become internet friends - I've seen it happen in real life. If you are both letting off steam, then why are you both getting even more steamed?
Polly is unplugging the kettle.
We all want the same things so we must have a few letter in common.
Do we all agree that Muslim women, collectively, have all the same virtues and vices we all do - collectively?
Are Muslim women helpless, passive, dependent and submissive? No more than we are! Some are and some aren't. It is not up to us to decide which are which because, unless one does something extremely heroic (ie Monia Maigh), we'll get it wrong as often as we get it right.
Do we like being told what to do? No. Are there those who want us women to be helpless, passive, dependent and submissive? Yes. Why? How do they plan to benefit by being our knight, or by our obedience, or by are dependence, or by our submission? The simple answer is power and/or greed. Every atrocity boils down to lust for power and/or greed.
Are all women the same. No.
Should we be dictating to other women what their needs are? No. Should we stand by while others are being harmed. Depends what we can do. If we can help, we help - to do anything else would be immoral.
Sugar coated abuse is not help. The person who says "You poor thing, how are you ever going to manage" is not there to help but to control.
What do you disagree with? What did I miss?
liberty, sorry, a bit bored because I am trying to work on something else and come here when I need a break from it.
If I got nothing to add then I have nothing to say. I tend not to waste posts on Ditto. On the other hand, it is rude not to respond to a post, which is why I try to find something to comment in another's post or offer a blanket apology when I comment on some people's posts but don't comment on everyone's post. As I should.
liberty:
But, you see, it is ALWAYS about race.
If it isn't, they'll distort it till it looks as if it is.
Religion has always been the mask of racism.
Vaudree I was just pointing out the fact that Islam is a religion not a race and I used examples....no need to dissect that. Was just clarifying that to people on this board who don't know the difference.
Interesting and also sad to see that two trolls have completely taken over this thread and are just now jerking each other off.
This kind of offensive activity of baiting and trying to silence the folks who actually have relevant experience (in this case with Muslim women and Muslim countries) is rampant on right wing sites. I really did not expect it on CommonDreams, but it's clear that we have to expect it on any discussion site which begins to get a fair amount of traffic.
The latest sandbox peeing directed at my person by colleen in stream of unconsciousness South American (not even Mexican, but since she doesn't speak Spanish she wouldn't know the difference) street Spanish obscenities is a particularly flagrant example of the low level of the trolls that have begun posting on this site.
Colleen says: But wherever people lose their human rights, and wherever there are abused people, I beleive people have a moral obligation to speak up and help those who can not help themselves. The bell tolls for thee.
But to never lose sight that every human being deserves as much independence and role in the decisions which affect their lives as possible. When people can't help themselves, it is usually, in my experience, because they have been actively prevented from doing so.
Strange that when the Irish had their potato famine that the English took most of the food the Irish were able to produce and let them starve. Strange that when the Ukrainians had their potato famine that the Russians took most of the food the Ukrainians were able to produce and let them starve. I wonder how much of this is going on in Africa and the Middle-East.
War moves people off their lands and from the crops growing in their fields to refugee camps where food has to be brought in from outside. Seems like many human rights violations take place in refugee camps.
Colleen says: Maher Arar was fortunate because he was a Canadian and he had a wife who did not give up.
Abdullah Almalki is also fortunate that Maher Arar had a wife who did not give up. Seems that only the Liberals and Almalki's family knew that he was in Syria until Maher Arar came out during his statement and said he saw him there. Almalki's family were told to keep quiet, behave themselves and let the government handle it.
Colleen says: And this torture is being done under the authority of the US government. Of everything the Bush administration has done, for me this is the worst and the reason I have left America. (Well and also Canada is a principled nation, with some very nice people…but nothing is perfect)
First we had a story about Canadians and their green outfits:
Canadian troops not green with envy
When the full complement of about 750 Canadian soldiers arrives in Afghanistan next month, the people they meet will have no problem recognizing who they are. In a sea of desert tan and brown, the Canadians will be decked out in forest green.
The members of the advance team already on the ground in Kandahar are already standing out – but some troops waiting for their orders to leave don't seem to mind.
"It's my uniform," said Master Cpl. Perry Morrow. "I'd rather wear this than no clothes at all."
Chief of Defence Staff Ray Henault said on Friday that uniforms in desert camouflage are on order, but won't arrive until summer.
His comments came while visiting an armed forces base in Edmonton along with Defence Minister Art Eggleton,
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2002/01/19/troops_can020119.html
Then there was this picture of soldiers in green uniforms - with a caption saying that they were American soldiers with Taliban prisoners. Some people took a look at the picture and figured that they could not be American soldiers because all the American soldiers in Afghanistan were in tan uniforms. Meanwhile, the Opposition was asking what Canada would do when it captured prisoners because we had no place to hold them. Defence Minister Art Eggleton dismissed the question as "hypothetical" and said that he did not answer "hypothetical" questions. You see that photograph in the following:
Canadians have nowhere to keep captives
Canadian forces in Afghanistan will continue to turn over captives to U.S. forces because there's no other place to hold them. The Canadians don't have their own jails or confinement centres.
Defence Minister Art Eggleton confirmed on Tuesday that the team of Joint Task Force Two (JTF2) forces in Afghanistan since December have turned over prisoners to the Americans.
An Associated Press photo that ran in several newspapers last week showed commandos originally identified as U.S. troops but later said to be Canadians with Taliban prisoners.
In Ottawa, some politicians worry that by turning over captives to the U.S. forces, Canada is betraying its own values by subjecting the prisoners to the possibility of trials by military tribunals and death sentences.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2002/01/30/canada_captives020130.html
Video and audio tends to work but links don't because of the crash a few years back.
So now Canada is not turning prisoners over to the Americans any more but to Afghani authorities. The Conservatives say that Taliban prisoners routinely lie about being tortured.
The Conservatives present themselves as "tough on crime" which is usually a euphamism for the trampling of the rights of the innocent along with the guilty. Some of this is a smoke screen to prevent people from infringing on the "rights" of multinational corporations.
Colleen, what do you know about Karlheinz Schreiber?
vaudree
You are so Canadian to consider why the other person thinks as they do...I can certainly identify with the loss of one's nation and the shock of seeing it stand for things that are so immoral.
I was in an Amnesty International group and my subgroup was the treatment of people by Americans in Afghanistan. There were pages of information about abuse. Then I was reading about how the Red Cross was saying there were serious problems with the treatment of people picked up by Americans in Afghanistan.
For me torture is a bright moral line and to hear about that immorality occuring while so many Americans were so nationalistic and combining nationalism with a strange form of Christianity... that Christ would never have recognized...well it caused me to question what was it that America stood for anyway...I believe the depth of what has occured is still not recognized in the US.
Maher Arar was fortunate because he was a Canadian and he had a wife who did not give up. We are finding out about the people who have western citizenships that have been picked up and tortured ..but others are stll unknown. Some have died.
And this torture is being done under the authority of the US government. Of everything the Bush administration has done, for me this is the worst and the reason I have left America. (Well and also Canada is a principled nation, with some very nice people...but nothing is perfect)
But wherever people lose their human rights, and wherever there are abused people, I beleive people have a moral obligation to speak up and help those who can not help themselves. The bell tolls for thee.
Or a person who has been deeply wounded (and deeply disappointed in the past). When one is hurting, the whole world becomes a blurry "they." Which ever it is, it takes the dialogue where I don't want to go. Even if it is something I can respond to when I wish to take a break from what else I am doing on the computer.
Hey, no one in the world is completely free of racism though we should all strive to be. It is a dirty ugly world based on ideas we either don't even realize we have or barely realize we have - but, if we are good people, we don't go out of the way to embrace these fragments of ideas, once we become aware of them - we renounce them and do our best to purge ourselves of them.
You should hear me rant about Sniffhousers when I am hungover from going shopping or participating in some other legitimate activity. I know that the people who do this don't know what they are doing, but I forget that during a hangover because I don't feel that well.
BTW - is Lou Dobbs legal?
Americans should know who Maher Arar is. It frightens me how many Maher Arars there are in the US that we don't know about.
Having one's husband kidnapped and tortured and the best that one can hope for is for him to come home alive and (possibly) permanently damaged is a woman's issue.
The Maher Arar story according to Hansard - you get a few things:
a) Information in the order that we found it out
b) Harper's initial reaction to the Arar case
c) That, before "deporting" Arar to Syria, they made a detour to Jordan
http://thomhartmann.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4061097651/m/3901028782?r=390...
Maher Arar was detained at a New York stop over between Tunisia (where his wife is from) and Montreal on September 26, 2002.
The war in Iraq started on March 20, 2003.
Maher Arar was released on October 5, 2003.
Maher Arar's story (in his own words):
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/arar_statement.html
correction...what ....some ....Americans are like.
Now I was doing what she has been doing and lumping everyone into the same monolithic American or "gringo" as she calls them...
Tell me these Moonraven quotes are not prejudice (and try replacing the word gringo with another group ..like blacks, Jews or Muslims...)
............................................
"I agree: You ARE Islamophobic."
"Just like the rest of the gringos."
.............................................
"Understanding is a word absent from the gringo vocabulary."
"They always think they know better"
..............................................
Clearly the word "gringo" is being used by moonraven as a pejorative and is based in a prejudice against Americans.
vaudree
The average American has no clue who Maher Arar is...sad to say.
But it was a terrible outrage and it was one of the reasons why I wanted to move to Canada. Canada accepts responsbility and tries to rectify injustice. Americans too often use denial and cover up. But look at Moonraven as an example of what some Americans are like...on both the right and the left ...just so obnoxious and certain of being right while using insult to silence dissent....
dcbeltway says: Islam is not a race people its a religion. Muslims come from all ethnicities.
"Islam" seems to be a religion the same way "Protestant" is in that there seems to be many distinct branches of Islam. That is one debate among Canadian Muslims who grew up elsewhere - of one's traditions, what is Islam and what is cultural.
dcbeltway says: There are also converts of all ethnicities. I'm Irish American and a Muslim convert for example. However, there are white Muslims in Europe known as the Albanians and Bosnians.
Does the life experiences of being a "white Muslim" in the US differ from being a Muslim person in the US whose features are more Black or Middle-Eastern? Does it make a difference whether one is a convert or born into a religion?
In a world where there was no racism it would not.
colleen says: moonraven, you are a rude and offensive personlity with very strong opinions
You should notice that moonraven isn't actually sharing her own opinions in the last while but chastising us for not being able to guess what her opinions are - there is a difference. I'm not a mind reader - are you? My dad died in October 2001 and my mom said today that she has a three boxes of stocking stuffers she doesn't know what to do with. My dad would mention once when he bought it (in July) who they were for and if my mom could not remember who they were for by the time Christmas came around he got all offended and said to forget about it.
moonraven says: We are talking about Latin America. It DOES exist–just SOUTH of the fortress USA obscene wall. (Which at least was built largely by the labor of undocumented workers….)
Yes, and many corporations and wealthy farmers benefit from the cheap labour. On one side of their mouth, the US government calls Mexicans "criminals" that have to be kept out of the country and on the other side of their mouths they welcome the cheap labour with open arms. This duplicity keeps the undocumented worker from standing up for themselves because they are welcome as long as they put up with shit.
Mexico is part of North America. Latin America is like Chile, Cuba and Brazil. Ok, I guess technically Mexico is classified with those other countries, but one tends to distinguish between Mexico and Latin America.
I am not going to refer to a French dictionary when looking up the word "gringo" because, despite the fact that I am half French myself, I can't speak it.
Familiar with Folklorama? All the cultural traditions below are now Canadian cultural traditions:
WEEK ONE
Brasilian Pavilion
Chile Lindo Pavilion
Mexican Pavilion
http://www.folklorama.ca/folklorama_pavillions_week.php?Week=1
WEEK TWO
Chilean Pavilion
Cuban Pavilion
El Salvador Pavilion
http://www.folklorama.ca/folklorama_pavillions_week.php?Week=2
colleen says: There are about one billion muslims in the world..and that means about half a billion are women. These women have very diverse lives and experiences and many different opinions. No one group of people could speak for all of them (but you know this already…sigh)
I think that this is obvious. Not only do the various Muslims groups who speak for Canadian Muslims say that but Muslims would not be blowing up mosques in the Middle East unless they saw themselves as being distinct from the particular group of Muslims that particular Mosque belonged to.
However, when speaking about Canadian Muslims - "them" is part of "us." Canadians were not outraged because Maher Arar was Muslim, they were outraged because Americans were doing this to a Canadian citizen.
And we are outraged about Omar Khadr too (some of us any way) - the child soldier with the father from hell. If Khadr's father sold him into prostitution rather than pressed him into military service, it would be easier for Americans to see him as the victim he was. If Khadr ran away, where would he run to? He had no place to go.
Anyone take a look at which Conservative MPs made it into Harper's cabinet and which Conservative MPs didn't.
GLOSS OF WIK (yes, you can get a gloss of nonEnglish entries by either putting a phrase in search or the URL in search (if you are telling people to "go home" then you don't like them much):
Gringo is a term used in Spanish and Portuguese, with diverse meaning, often badly interpreted by the English-speaking people.
In general form the term is applied to foreigners who speak in a language that is not understood by people who speak Spanish. The term has been applied according to the times and regions, Germans, French, Italian English and, specially, to the Canadian Americans and.
In certain Latin American countries, like Mexico, Ecuador, Panama,Peru,Central America, Colombia, Venezuela or Chile the term are applied exclusively for the American citizens.
moonraven says: I am still a US citizem.
Which means you are still technically a gringo. Though, the word "gringo" like the word "WASP" tends to be used to refer mainly to white Americans. It is better than the term Carolyn Parrish used - though she later said that she was not referring to all Americans but only to those in the Bush administration. Parrish has her own Wikipedia page. Yes she did kiss the Bush doll after stomping on it. There is a bit of Parrish in everyone - especially you.
moonraven says: I am still a US citizem, so I have every right to tell you to educate yourself about the world you live in before shooting off your fat mouth. Overthrow your genocidal government.
We have been trying, but it takes all three Opposition Parties to defeat the Government in an Non Confidence vote and the Liberals are chicken shits.
You educate a kid by teaching him or her the alphabet, NOT by telling them they are ugly and stupid for not knowing their letters.
moonraven says: You are the one doing the racial profiling, vaudree! / Here's an example of your ignorance: You assume that because I live in Mexico and because I am Native American that I have dark skin. / I don't. / I also have strawberry blond hair. / Somewhere back in the geneological day there was a Norwegian in the mix.
I assumed because you kept calling me "gringo" that you weren't part "gringo" yourself. I did say that I could be Native and Hispanic and Latin American and still have fair skin - you said you moved to Mexico but were born in the US and I tend to see Mexico as part of North America because Mexico is part of NAFTA (so I never assumed you were Mexican).
I haven't had strawberry-blond hair since I was a kid - it is 1/3 blond, 1/3 red and 1/3 brown. My brother whose hair and skin colour resembled Ronald McDonald's is convinced because of our surname that he's Metis even though my cousin traced my dad's side of the family back to 1608.
You see a lot of fair skinned people in North Dakota/Minnesota who say that have Norwegian/Sweddish/German/Native ancestory. My son has a friend named K who has fairer skin that I do (which is unusual) and white blond hair who he says is 1/4 native. He has another friend named K (popular name in this complex) who is Blative (Black father Native mother) who looks Phillipino but whose brothers looks Mullatto. Some status Indians have trouble presenting their treaty card at the border because they look more Black than native.
You get two sisters with the same parents and one can pass for white and the other can't - they have different issues. The former can gain preferential treatment by turning her back on her identity (which causes another set of problems). The latter may face more discrimination, but doesn't have to worry about being found out for living a lie or feeling like they don't truly belong anywhere.
Did you ever see Southern Comfort, about a woman who had a sex change operation to turn her into a man and was dying of Cancer of the uterus? Seems that he "passed" so well that the KKK tried to sign him up as a member. The way people react to you depends on how you look.
I am very allergic to air freshioner and if a person coated with airfreshioner (it coats the air and anything that comes in contact with the air) or is wearing air freshioner laced home care products comes to close to me, I have trouble walking and slur my speech. They see me as repulsive because I stagger and not the Sniffhouser for wearing strong stuff and hurting people. I am racist against Sniffhousers - people who insist on turning their bodies into portable sniffhouses.
How good is your spanish?
pinche gringa punetera triple hijueputa
That's your OPINION.
Your OPINION, George, is not GOSPEL.
You are not The Decider. And your mission--to derail any real information presented on this thread--has NOT been accomplished.
I speak only for myself when I tell you that a GED and some tape over your big mouth would go a long way toward making the world a better place.
"Speaking for people of a group that you are not part of–for Muslim women, for example, when you are a gringo or canuck or anglo–take your pick–is unacceptable." moonraven
That sentence is offensive...but lets take you at your word..You may speak only for women who are exactly like you..all 5 of them.
Colleen, Let's put the facts out there:
At 8:07 a.m. today YOU attacked ME.
I think it's time for me to just call you a liar (that I DO know about you) and wish you a better life next lifetime.
If there IS a next lifetime.
what do you know of me...ZERO NOTHING ZIP
but you certainly project onto me all kinds of things...seek help and stop attacking people on the internet.
Right, Colleen. When they start paying YOU to give presentations around the world, let me know.
The bottom line is that I am an educator and you are a hostile ignorant gringa trying to force her delusional world view on the rest of us.
Gee, I just described George Bush right along with you.
A twofer.
"Folks like you never learn anything because they are too busy telling everybody that they know it all." moonraven
Go see a psychologist or a psychiatirst ...you are projecting.
Islam is not a race people its a religion. Muslims come from all ethnicities. There are also converts of all ethnicities. I'm Irish American and a Muslim convert for example. However, there are white Muslims in Europe known as the Albanians and Bosnians. Arabs for instance make up only 20% of all the 1 billion Muslims on earth. The largest percentage of Muslims come from Asia Indonesia then India. This is the same for Jews and Christians.
I KNOW spanish and i have someone in my home from South America.
"con diverso significos"
In some places gringo has the meaning of ni**er (offensive word describing blacks)
Gringo can be used affectionalty or with contempt
If you act in person as you write here I would guess its with contempt in your case.
Colleen,
Please do not try to engage me with any further abusive foolishness.
Clearly, you are here posting because you want attention, as you do not contribute any information.
Colleen,
From wikipedia, in SPANISH:
"Gringo es un término usado en español y portugués, con diversos significados, a menudo mal interpretado por las personas angloparlantes.
En forma general el término se aplica a extranjeros que hablan en un idioma que no se entiende por personas que hablan español. El término ha sido aplicado según las épocas y regiones a ingleses, alemanes, franceses, italianos y, especialmente, a los estadounidenses y canadienses.
En ciertos paÃses latinoamericanos, como México, Ecuador, Panamá,Perú,Centroamérica, Colombia, Venezuela o Chile el término se aplica exclusivamente para los ciudadanos estadounidenses."
In the first paragraph, the phrase, "a menudo mal interpretado por las personas angloparlantes", means:
FREQUENTLY MISINTERPRETED BY ENGLISH SPEAKERS.
Just another example of your intransigent ignorance exposed.
moon raven
you are ignorant imo!!!
You have ZERO infomration about me..but you are so self aborbed and sure you are right (also called arrogant) You will make up in your mind whatever story you want to describe the other person.
vaudree
You are all right by me. You are trying to find solutions to difficult issues and doing it with some respect for others (well... you are Canadian)
There are about one billion muslims in the world..and that means about half a billion are women. These women have very diverse lives and experiences and many different opinions. No one group of people could speak for all of them (but you know this already...sigh)
colleen,
You just made my case:
You quoted a link to an English language (gringo-centric) reference!
We are talking about Latin America. It DOES exist--just SOUTH of the fortress USA obscene wall. (Which at least was built largely by the labor of undocumented workers....)
As the gringo teens say: Duh.
"And colleen: You are another ignorant bigmouth. Here in Latin America ALL folks from the US are called gringos. It's easier to say than norteamericano."moonraven
moonraven, you are a rude and offensive personlity with very strong opinions that has no difficulty in insulting and condemning other people. You are also self aborbed and arrogant.
And I can understand why you think gringo is allright..because that is what they are calling you... but read this:
Word History: In Latin America the word gringo is an offensive term for a foreigner, particularly an American or English person. But the word existed in Spanish before this particular sense came into being. In fact, gringo may be an alteration of the word griego, the Spanish development of Latin Graecus, "Greek." Griego first meant "Greek, Grecian," as an adjective and "Greek, Greek language," as a noun. The saying "It's Greek to me" exists in Spanish, as it does in English, and helps us understand why griego came to mean "unintelligible language" and perhaps, by further extension of this idea, "stranger, that is, one who speaks a foreign language." The altered form gringo lost touch with Greek but has the senses "unintelligible language," "foreigner, especially an English person," and in Latin America, "North American or Britisher." Its first recorded English use (1849) is in John Woodhouse Audubon's Western Journal: "We were hooted and shouted at as we passed through, and called 'Gringoes.'"
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gringo
You are not dealing with bligh now and I won't take your sh** In my opinion you are a racist and prejudice and I will always challenge prejudice especially based upon race, sex or national identity.
"Typical Ugly American arrogant bullshit." moonraven
Yup thats you all right!
You are the one doing the racial profiling, vaudree!
Here's an example of your ignorance: You assume that because I live in Mexico and because I am Native American that I have dark skin.
I don't.
I also have strawberry blond hair.
Somewhere back in the geneological day there was a Norwegian in the mix.
And colleen: You are another ignorant bigmouth. Here in Latin America ALL folks from the US are called gringos. It's easier to say than norteamericano.
You seem to know absolutely squat about anything outside of your gringo-centric universe, yet you think you can speak for women of other cultures.
Typical Ugly American arrogant bullshit.
I am still a US citizem, so I have every right to tell you to educate yourself about the world you live in before shooting off your fat mouth. Overthrow your genocidal government.
When you've done that, try speaking for others. Hopefully, however, part of that educational process will induce you to have a bit of humility.
But I am not holding my breath.
You threw words against the wall like spaghetti, to see if some of them would stick.
None of them did.
You do not have a clue.
Colleen, I can be every nationality that Moonraven is and there would still be a difference because of my fair skin - many of the border guards who engage in racial profiling can't tell the difference between Sikh and Mexican (according to a former prof). One has to wonder how Shaun Majumder who can trace his Newfie roots all the way back to the 1700's can successfully portray a terrorist on 24.
And I don't mind being called a "gringo" because, as a Canadian, I have no "green card". I also had a father who used to annoy my mother on purpose by saying things like "anglo-sexless" and "bees sting to protect their honey but WASPs sting for no reason at all" and that the english invented round plates when square plates would be more efficient just to get a rise out of her. Anyway, compared to all these fake Koran revelations, Moonraven is quite harmless.
colleen says: There is NOTHING arrogant about demanding human rights for people besides your own little subset of the human population
I think that all three of us agree with that (from my interpretation of what everyone is saying). And I think that all three of us agree that depicting Muslim (or any group of) women as "Damsels in Distress" is insulting. And none of us three are advocating a "father knows best" attitude or approach.
Supporting RAWA seems like a way of supporting rights for Afghani women without trampling all over the rose bushes and taking over (remember the link from before). The other way seems to be listening to RAWA and then going into question period and demanding the type of help that RAWA finds most useful.
Re Arrogance: I am Canadian and I do believe that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms trumps all. In my arrogance, I also believe it superior to the American Bill of Rights - even before it was watered down. And, for me, this is about human rights and human rights is not about making someone else more like me. Human rights is about choice and dignity and respect for others - it is not specifically about Muslim woman or even about women. If one human being is mistreated, who are we to remain silent! Ok, we do remain silent, but we are assholes for doing so.
Anne Applebaum mentioned the death of Aqsa Parvez. There can be many reasons behind what happened - none of them acceptable. I think it best to wait until the thing goes to court before commenting on that. What I do know is that Harper purposely gutting funding for women's programs and social programs in general - including those programs offering shelter to those seeking sanctuary away from abusive homes. Harris and Eves were no better in their day.
Unlike the murder of Jassi Kaur Sidhu, the murder of Aqsa Parvez seems less a preplanned honour killing and more about a man who could not control his temper (or never tried to). The Fifth Estate video of "The Murdered Bride" is still up and I heard that someone has made the story into a movie also.
Note that the US is not at war with Saudi Arabia. BTW - how many of those 911 hijackers came from Iraq?
Saudi Arabia's treatment of rape victim unconscionable
by MCC President Farzana Hassan
http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/20071128.html
And thank you
bligh
for expressing a concern about women and their human rights. We are all in this together.
And when people marched with Martin Luther King, MLK never said only blacks could speak for blacks. All people were asked to stop the prejudice that was killing blacks in America!
My email to Anne Applebaum, columnist at the the Washington Post.
In response to the column :
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/17/AR200712...
A Stanton For the Saudis
....................................................
Imo women in the west are certainly angered and outraged by how women in nations like Saudi Arabia are treated.
However there is a war drum beating now in Washington and waging war is not a way to help women in any nation.
Any strong condemnations of how women are treated could result in yet another justification for waging war.
Why don't you write a column about RAWA?
http://www.rawa.org/index.php
"RAWA is the oldest political/social organization of Afghan women struggling for peace, freedom, democracy and women's rights in fundamentalism-blighted Afghanistan since 1977."
This is what war has brought to Afghanistan according to the women of RAWA:
The US and Her Fundamentalist Stooges are
the Main Human Rights Violators in Afghanistan
RAWA communiqué on Universal Human Rights Day, Dec.10, 2007
The US and Her Fundamentalist Stooges are
the Main Human Rights Violators in Afghanistan
The US and her allies tried to legitimize their military occupation of Afghanistan under the banner of "bringing freedom and democracy for Afghan people". But as we have experienced in the past three decades, in regard to the fate of our people, the US government first of all considers her own political and economic interests and has empowered and equipped the most traitorous, anti-democratic, misogynist and corrupt fundamentalist gangs in Afghanistan.
In the past few years, for a thousand times the lies of US claims in the so-called "War on terror" were uncovered. By relying on the criminal bands of the Northern Alliance, the US made a game of values like democracy, human rights, women's rights etc. thus disgracing our mournful nation. The US created a government from those people responsible for massacres in Pul-e-Charkhi, Dasht-e-Chamtala, Kapisa, Karala, Dasht-e-Lieli, 65,000 Kabulis and tens of mass graves across the country. Now the US tries to include infamous killers like Mullah Omer and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar into the government, which will be another big hypocrisy in the "war against terror".
.........................................
Well there is more at the link.
The answer in my mind is to emphasize human rights for people around the world..rather than attempting to export a specific political system like western democracy with war.
And the growth of human rights will imo occur with nations, people and NGOs and religious groups coming together to give us all our rights. And that will not occur in a war zone and with belligerance.
It will occur with economic incentives and pressure groups uniting to force human rights as a world wide standard.
But of course you can't write about RAWA, because they are not politically aligned with you. Your agenda is not to help women but to promote an attack upon muslim nations.
"Speaking for people of a group that you are not part of–for Muslim women, for example, when you are a gringo or canuck or anglo–take your pick–is unacceptable." moonraven
There is NOTHING arrogant about demanding human rights for people besides your own little subset of the human population and calling people names like gringo is pure prejudice!
What about Muslim women married to Jewish men or Jewish women who marry Muslim men? Their offspring are the fruit of two trees. They are not one tree or another.
moonraven says: Here in Latin America we do not expect that an oak tree give us pears.
With all the frankenfoods out there don't be surprised if there is eventually an oak tree which bears pears. I can see someone wishing to develop a pear tree which withstands colder temperatures. Expectations concerning Oak trees and Pear trees depend on things aways staying the same - which they never do.
Star hockey player Vicky Sunohara was tickled pink at all the attention she was getting from the Japanese in during the Nagano Olympics because she was the only Japanese-Canadian hockey player at the games. Vicky Sunohara openly wondered if she would be supported by the Ukranian fans as well in a game she was playing later that day because she was also Ukranian-Canadian. There is no law saying she can't be both - though I'll let you decide what of Vicky Sunohara is Pear and what of Vicky Sunohara is Oak.
Way back, one could be kicked out of the Military for being openly gay. Today one can, not only be openly gay and serve in the Military, one can also be openly gay and married to another openly gay person who serves in the Military.
Way back, women were not allowed to serve on combat missions and the Silver Cross was only given to the mothers or wives of fallen soldiers. When Captain Nichola Goddard died while leading her troop in combat, her husband Jason Beam became the first man to receive the Silver Cross.
Personally, I think that Beam would have preferred not to be given this honour - since, to get the Silver Cross required the death of his wife (and, according to the televised eulogy, he was very much in love with her). Otherwise, from what I've heard, he was OK with it. And, in my opinion, it was only fair that he be given the honour.
Seems that the NDP has an openly gay Muslim human rights lawyer as a candidate running in the next election. Which group does he speak for? Gays? Muslims? Lawyers? The small group of people who are all three? The party is he running for?
moonraven says: As usual, you missed the point. I am beginning to think you are really deliberately obtuse.
No, I am just saying that there are exceptions (as there is always to anything).
I agree with you but I see an exception - an important one - when one is given a mandate to speak for a group.
Then again, those we choose to speak for us don't always. Both Harper and Bush were elected to speak for our respective nations but I think neither speaks for more than the oil companies and other CEOs. In contrast, Phil Fontaine can speak for Residential School survivors because he was one. And on other issues he is subordinated to the Assembly's Constitution and Objectives - so he isn't giving his own opinion but the opinion of the AFN - most of the time (humans cannot avoid giving an opinion no more than they can avoid breathing the air).
moonraven says: Speaking for people of a group that you are not part of–for Muslim women, for example, when you are a gringo or canuck or anglo–take your pick–is unacceptable.
There is a slight problem with that argument. I am a woman and Muslim women are also women. I am a Canuck and some Muslims are also Canucks. I am straight and some Muslims are also straight (you'd be surprised how many are not). I am mouthy and I presume that there must be some Muslims who are equally mouthy.
Seriously, unless I am parroting back things that I've heard others say, I am only speaking for myself. And it is because I know my fair complexion will insure that I won't be harassed at the border.
As usual, you missed the point. I am beginning to think you are really deliberately obtuse.
Speaking for people of a group that you are not part of--for Muslim women, for example, when you are a gringo or canuck or anglo--take your pick--is unacceptable.
If a Native American is ELECTED to speak for a group of nations, that is an entirely different case--and even someone as deliberately obtuse as you should be able to see that.
Here in Latin America we do not expect that an oak tree give us pears.
dcbeltway - just repeating what I've heard others say.
Moonraven, in Canada, Phil Fontaine, as the elected Chief of the Assembly of First Nations (afn.ca), has a mandate to speak for the Native Peoples of Canada, but not for the Metis people or Inuit. The AFN has dealings with The National Congress of American Indians. If it is felt that he is not representing his people properly, at the next election, they will replace him with someone else.
Personally, I just speak for myself being neither Native, Metis nor Inuit. Though, it seems that, because of my surname, people assume that I am either of the former.
Remember Maher Arar's wife?
Monia Mazigh to Write Memoir
Doug Pepper, President and Publisher McClelland & Stewart, today announced the acquisition of a memoir by Monia Mazigh, wife of Maher Arar.
This book will be the first personal account from the Arar family about Arar's abduction by the American Government, torture by the Syrian Government, and the fight for justice after his return to Canada.
The book will recount Monia Mazigh's very personal story of the fight to rescue her husband, the impact on her family and their daily life as they struggled with Maher Arar's kidnapping, and then his return, physically and emotionally ravaged, perhaps forever.
Monia Mazigh has chosen to share her story to help her come to terms and digest all that has happened to her and her family, and to inform the public and the world about how extraordinary rendition and other 'anti-terrorist' methods destroy innocent lives and families. (cont)
http://iqra.typepad.com/read/2007/12/monia-mazigh-to.html
The Maher Arar Story - According to Hansard:
http://thomhartmann.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4061097651/m/3901028782?r=390...
(skip two long monologues near beginning - the Hansards stuff is in colour)
dcbeltway: I agree. I certainly would not be so arrogant and presumptious as to "speak for" Muslim women--nor for Latin American women.
I also would not accept for a nanosecond being spoken for as a Native American woman.
Here in Latin America speaking for indigenous people was called "indigenismo"--and it has a VERY bad smell to it: the worst kind of condescension.
Speaking for women is "paternalism"--regardless of whether a man or a woman is doing the speaking.
This kind of horseshit is why our species is barreling over the cliff into the abyss of history.
Vaudree agreed and most Afghans would agree with you also. The warlords all need to be brought to justice. Many of them are greedy, violent, and well-known rapists (both of women and of men). My husband dreams of a Nuremberg style war crimes tribunal for them along with the Taliban. I doubt he'll ever get his wish.
LEE ANN G: Thank you for your excellent commentary, it adds dimension to what I wrote.
BLIGH & GREASEMAN: By pointing out that the US needs to get its own house in order, does not present the mutually exclusive notion that it ought do nothing elsewhere. If a doctor is drunk, he should not be doing surgery.
OLD BADGER, TOO: Great points on heroism.
SPARTANMAN KEN: What if a sort of cultural version of "Stockholm Syndrome" applied and by that I mean, people get enculturated into long established rituals they TAKE for norms. Just because the women help to promote a system does not mean that is ultimately a "choice." There is choice taken from a level of realization and choice that is robotic in nature. Until a self has awakened, the vast majority will go along with the cultural/religious milieu it finds itself within. A portion are born rebels and will question. Some of these will out of frustrated anger become society's "criminals," and some will become its visionaries.
Growth tends to happen most at the fringes.
I think that they would like to get rid of the Northern Alliance as well as the Taliban.
One more thing to add Afghan women are incredibly strong dynamic women, I count them amongst my sister-in laws! Prior to the Taliban and starting with Zaher Shah the former King in the 1950's Afghan women particularily those in Kabul were attending university, holding jobs, removing the veil and active members of society. War changed all that and the Taliban did too. By the way the Taliban are backed by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and not by the Afghan people. The BBC did a poll recently and 95% of those polled were supportive of a Taliban-free Afghanistan and a democractic Afghanistan.
Moonraven you're amazing! I've traveled widely in the Islamic world myself and how you describe the Gulf brings back memories of my own trips. Its amazing the level of ignorance about Muslim women on this board and all I can say is it proves the author's point. I'm a Muslim woman, a convert though of Irish descent married to a Muslim American man. If people actually listened to Muslim women instead of always trying to speak for us I believe there would be far less ignorance.
``Let us be honest: the Koran sanctions rape. Mohammed himself raped many women and had a sexual relationship with his 6 year old cousin wife. Female captives and unbelievers are fair game, according to Allah, as are prepubescent girls. The Koran, which all Muslims believe is directly from Allah, says "the woman is your field, to plow her as pleases you."
The Bible contains its share of misogyny and violence, too.
Religious literalism, taking texts from barbaric bronze-age tribes as divine revelation, is always and everywhere dangerous.''
Factually incorrect. Islam considers rape to be a sin and a crime which is is severely punishable. Islam's prophet had a number of wives in his later life, after being monogamous for several years. He married women, mostly widows to support them after they had nobody left, as well as marrying some orphans to support them. Consensually, of course.
The Kuran says that men are the garments of women and women are the garments of men. The verse about women being the fields of men does NOT mean that men have the right to rape women, or treat them in a way inconsistent with their own wishes. Marriage against the will of a spouse is null and void under Islamic law.
Spartanladkenny, I wear any kind of head wear in the summer I get heat stroke - thick hair. No one is ever going to get me to wear a bicycle helmet let alone a kerchief in the summer! So, no one is forcing me to wear a hijab or a ball cap or anything. But if you want to wear any of those things - it is your choice.
Believe that there should be sports hijabs so that heat stroke can be avoided in the summer - but there is already a winter sports hijab - it is called the balaclava.
Spartanladkenny says: In extremist societies women get blamed for all the wrongs in the society, but isn't that the case since life began? Don't we blame Eve for the eternal sin because of which we had to leave the GARDEN.
Please don't ever blame Stephen Harper on women! ;)
Does the Garden of Eden you refer to exist also in the Koran? Is Lilith, Adam's disobedient first wife in there as well?
BTW - in French Yves is a male name - Adam and Yves.
I heard that story of the Nagini - snake people who could turn into women to seduce men. Seems that historically the King in the area married a woman from the Naga tribe and the person wanting to replace him used this story to turn the population against the otherwise peaceful Naga tribe. This guy (can't remember his name) said that the Nagas hand WMD which they could turn invisible so that you could not see them.
Moonraven Are you talking about The White Man's burden?
Well said Spartanladkenny.
bligh
You are a nicer person than I am.
In order to be helpful, one must first have some understanding.
Understanding is a word absent from the gringo vocabulary.
They always think they know better.
Thanks for sharing your perspective, Spartan.
As an Indian Muslim living in US I happened to experience both types of people who are staunchly for their version of modesty in women and those who view their own FREE lifestyles as a better way of living. We can all have strong opinions on what should be the way to live but in the end it is a matter that needs to be decided by women themselves.
Since time immemorial women have been oppressed by men regardless of faith. To assume that muslim women or rather women in the east are oppressed more than the so called liberated western women is not just a narrow view it lacks practical analysis of real ground conditions. I have asked many muslim women whom I know personally if they feel suffocated by the restrictions on them. I have never heard even a single one of them complain about their hijabs nor about their families expecting them to maintain modesty in clothing and behavior.
For the record, the definition of modesty in Islam is very similar to that in many eastern cultures. A Hindu woman values the same things that a muslim woman does. That doesn't mean Western women lack modesty but its a matter of perspective. Time and again I have heard my American friends say that they would die if they had to wear a hijab. I agree. Nobody is asking you to do the things muslim women do. But the fact of the matter is most muslim women do it on their own. It is an unknown fact that Islam has defined hijab for men and women. Men are SUPPOSED to maintain respectful behavior towards women at all times. Islam goes to the extent of disallowing more than one look at women who are not your own. The way women are supposed to be punished for not maintaining modesty laws, there are strict regulations for men as well. Obviously, all societies are male dominant and hence the male hijab gets pushed onto the back burner while we focus more on women. In extremist societies women get blamed for all the wrongs in the society, but isn't that the case since life began? Don't we blame Eve for the eternal sin because of which we had to leave the GARDEN.
Coming back to the article - the western attitude towards Islam and muslims has been documented in multiple history books ever since the muslims conquered most of Europe. The Arabs who were considered to be scum and a bunch of blood-feudal desert animals actually reformed themselves and formed a unified state which was strong enough to overpower the biggest empires at the time. So we hear western historians describe muslims as Mohammedans, followers of Mahomet who had harems and indulged in orgies and molested young girls which the west looked down upon. The same stories continue to this day and is being implemented in western imperialist adventures in the middle east trying to spread the message from the CIVILIZED world. Arabs are still considered scum along with their religion. The same ideologies get attached to treatment of their women. Even Churchill has a famous remark about Muslims where he generalizes the effect of Islam on men that makes them do all things evil.
I agree that some Muslim women need help but not your pity. There's a subtle but huge difference between the two! If one understands it he/she will find the solution for it as well.
January is a good time to start.
The Registrar awaits.
They do. I teach at one of them. (financial subjects and self-defense for women) thanks. Am thinking about taking a couple classes myself. ( I live next to a large university)
Well, have to go pick up the kids.
have a great holiday
I am always well, thanks. I keep my Native body and spirit as far away as possible from cartoon gringos.
Instead of unsuccessfully trying to waterboard posters from other cultural paths, I suggest going back to school.
Back in the day when I lived in the US, I directed programs in Continuing Ed for universities. Those programs might even still exist....
Just good clean living, Islamophobia (keeps me young), and tormenting "Gringophobics" ( a known medical disorder from south of the border)like yourself. Always an enjoyable experience moonraven. keep well
I agree: You ARE Islamophobic.
Just like the rest of the gringos.
I haven't heard the word cool, nor tick off, nor noodle since I was about 16 years old. Now that was almost 50 years ago.
Why is it that my grandmother is dead and you are still going? Batteries?
Colleen, you just agreed with NDP policy. Not Liberal. Definitely not Conservative.
bligh says: Still, I think the women's groups are being cowardly for not speaking out for muslim women.
How can you be so sure that they re not! But what makes Muslim women any different than any other women?
Spartanladkenny and Alexlawyer - this is from the Koran, but it sounds familiar:
ARAR: And when I arrived in Syria 2 months later I requested a copy of the Koran after one of the consular visits and they gave it too me. And most of the time I read the story of the prophet Joseph…
It's a Biblical story, and um, where his brothers conspired and put him in a dry well and after 40 years he became um, I mean they meet together again and at that time he was, he was the Finance Minister in Egypt after spending 7 years in prison.
So that kind of story, whenever I read it I used to cry a lot , so I felt very connected to that story because I was in a very similar position and actually told this to my wife in one of the letters I dictated to the consul. I told her I am innocent and I want to teach Baraa my daughter this story and I want her to stay proud of her father who is an in