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TechnoratiIraq: "Bad" Women Raped and Killed
BAGHDAD - Women are being killed by militia groups in southern Iraq for not conforming to strict Islamic ways, the police say. And, increased threats from militia groups is driving many women away from their homes.
Basra police chief Gen. Jalil Hannoon has told reporters and Arab TV channels that at least 40 women have been killed during the past five months in the southern city.
"We are sure there are many more victims whose families did not report their killing for fear of scandal," Gen. Hannoon said.
The militias dominated by the Shia Badr Organisation and the Mehdi Army are leading imposition of strict Islamic rules. The enforcement of these ways comes at a time when British troops have left Basra, the biggest town in the south, to the Iraqi government.
The Shia-dominated Iraqi government is seen as providing tacit and sometimes direct support to militias. The Badr Organisation answers to the Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council (SIIC), the Shia bloc in the Iraqi government. The Mehdi army is the militia of anti-occupation Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
Women who do not wear the hijab are becoming prime targets of militias, residents say. Many women say they are threatened with death if they do not obey.
"Militiamen approached us to tell us we must wear the hijab and stop wearing make-up," college student Zahra Alwan who fled Basra for Baghdad recently told IPS. "They are imitating the Iranian Revolution Guards, and we believe they receive orders from the Islamic Republic (of Iran) to do so."
Graffiti in red on walls across Basra warns women against wearing make-up and stepping out without covering their bodies from head to toe, Alwan said.
"The situation in Baghdad is not very different," Mazin Abdul Jabbar, social researcher at Baghdad University told IPS. "All universities are controlled by Islamic militiamen who harass female students all the time with religious restrictions."
Jabbar said this is one reason that "many families have stopped sending their daughters to high schools and colleges."
Earlier this year Iraq's Ministry of Education found that more than 70 percent of girls and young women no longer attend school or college.
Several women victims were accused of being "bad" before they were abducted, residents say. Most abducted women are later found dead. The bodies of several were found in garbage dumps, showing signs of rape and torture. Several bodies had a note attached saying the woman was "bad", according to several residents who did not give their name.
A Shia cleric in Baghdad spoke to IPS on condition of anonymity to defend killings.
"We are an Islamic country and we must commit to the restrictions of our religion," he said. "We must not allow corruption to invade our families under flag of freedom and such nonsense."
Sunni clerics offered a different view.
"It is against Islamic regulations for women to expose their hair and bodies," Sheikh Tariq al-Abdaly told IPS in Baghdad. "But this is not an Islamic state, and so all we can do is to advise women, same as we advise men, to follow those regulations. In any case, punishment for such mistakes should certainly be much less than execution."
Iraqi liberals are deeply frustrated by the lack of personal freedom. "We are so disappointed with the loss of what there was of Iraqi women's achievements under a regime (of former president Saddam Hussein) that we saw as retarded," Salim Mahmood of the Iraqi Communist Party in Baghdad told IPS.
"The Americans promised they would make Iraq a symbol of liberty and prosperity. Now it has neither."
With Dahr Jamail, IPS specialist writer on Iraq.
© 2007 Inter Press Service
81 Comments so far
Show AllI think there is a point when people get so use to crying about equality that they don't notice whats equal anymore. Womens rights in the east are worth crying about but in the west they have them. no one in the west is allowed to beat there wives anymore, they can get any job they like. When theres a woman running for president and a black man as well I don't think anyone should be crying about inequality anymore. Not here anyway.
But as for the east. You will never be able to convince me that saying a religion is only as good as its worst followers isn't true. So as far as I am concerned the Muslim people are not inherently good. When there book says kill the nonbelievers via Jihad, thats enough for me. Rules for slavery and everything included.
The Muslims are not the only people that are doing such things of course but they seem to have the most extremists don't they. Its an archaic set of guidelines for an archaic people from an archaic time. Same with Christianity. So as far as I can allow, if your outdated religion cannot coincide with the new era than its to be scrapped with the maps of flat earth.
As for men and women in general, some men like there woman dominant some like there woman submissive. You don't wanna be dominated. find someone thats not dominant. Womans rights in America is just as much of a joke as the NAACP relativity in this age. A woman got beat by her husband in some southern state? thats too bad, reason to march? hell no. did she attack the man first? was he arrested? were you there?
If she had attacked him first and thats why he wasn't arrested would you still want to march? Ugh I can't stand people crying about things that don't apply anymore. Theres a whole lot of people that have a whole lot more opportunity than I do in the united states. Due to bias laws and such intended to help someone other than me. Sometimes I wish I was an Iraqi female escaping to America just so I could enjoy more rights and free money and care and such more than anyone else can for living here legally.
I am not the protesting type though so I'm not going to go protest unimportant things like my country's care of its own people over its care for others. I don't intend for any of this to be mean towards women in Iraq because what happens to them is really horrifying most of the time.
But for the standard feminist to treat men in the west like men in the east because a guy slapped his gf.... A guy slapping his gf and a guy cutting the head of his sister for being raped by his brother are not comparable.
Women have there rights here and in Canada and many other places. funny how pretty much the only places they don't are in eastern religiously dominated areas.
If the religion is being used as justification for the oppression than destroy the religion. Religion isn't hard to destroy through education.
Besides how do you try and reason with a people who believe that anyone who would not be converted should be tortured and killed? And suddenly it holy war. A people who you can't try to say hey man your religion is keeping you in the dark ages. Without holy war! And the fact that people stick up for this religion is beyond me. see how much you will like the religion when your the one getting stoned to death for being raped by some one.
Dc Beltway - I never mentioned FGM, so I'm not sure what you are talking about. Again, the problem comes when religion is used as justification for violence. I have no tolerance for Christians doing the same thing, but am not aware of Modern killing of women by Christians because they are not "Christian Enough" or "insult Christianity". Unfortunatly, the same thing cannot be said about the situation in many Muslim countries. For example, last week a member of Iran's (a non-arab country)
ruling religious council said that uncovered women should be killed. A Canadian girl was killed by her father for not wearing Islamic dress. These are, unfortunatly, not isolated incidents. Not picking on Islam, just holding it to the same standard that Christianity is held on these posts. Could you imagine the outrage on CD if a Christian Minister ordered girls to be killed for the way they dress?
IrishEddie you should really do some research before typing.
As someone who has been both a Catholic and a Muslim in my lifetime and a proud Irish American woman on top of that you are embarrasing in your ignorance of both your own faith and that of others and your embaressing me as an Irish American as you are making Irish Americans look hateful and ignorant. Catholicism has a very good convert or die record to last time I checked ask the indigenous peoples of Latin America or those who suffered from the crusades and its no more or less violent in the historical record then Islam. There's also the IRA and its terrorism actions. However, I myself support a United Ireland one day and lets hope it can be achieved through non-violence.
I have always made a point of seperating the actions of religious followers from the religion themselves. You ought to do the same. You might even find that Islam and Catholicism have an astouning amount in common and are the only two religions in the world that recognize and honor Jesus peace be upon him. Muslims for one thing usually really like lamb just like us Irish Americans and in addition Muslims value family ties just like our people do.
So in conclusion do some real research first then come back to this discussion. Bligh you ought to do the same. FGM which you mention is practiced only in North Africa and is also practiced by Christian and Animist tribes and not just Muslims. FGM is a horrible practice and should be abolished. If FGM was an Islamic practice it would be carried out in Indonesia the largest Muslim country. However, it is not.
In the on-going controversy about sharia, some points:
Why is it that the fundamentalists seek to apply laws of yesteryear, but still demand the fruits of societal evolution like cars, guns, telephones, medicines, etc.?
In this day and age, when intelligence (and hence, skilled labor) is in such short supply, can we afford to ignore the inputs of our women (the last estimate, they were the majority globally)? Examples on lack of intelligence, US White House, Taliban, Pat Robertson, Al-Qaeda (and Osama), Al-Sadr, etc.
Would any-one of these so-called God-men care to answer this?
Welcome to Bush's war of choice! The cold hard realities don't quite jive with the rosy picture he is trying to paint.
Yikes! What a cacaphony of opinions! It's enough to make you either forget the subject of the article or worse, wish for 10 to 20 Kem Patrick comments.
These insane religious bigots. What cure do they need but to have all the Iraqi women (and African victims as well) picked up by the United Nations and placed in another country where they are safe and free of this disgusting male terror. These religious numskulls should have no women for centuries and let's see if their attitude changes. Probably not as stupidity is reluctant to modification.
"Are you saying that gang rape and murder did not take place in this society prior to our illegal invasion? Aren't there almost weekly news stories which show these kinds of things happening in Muslim lands? Seems to me that the Muslim religion is at its heart a very mysogynistic religion."
----
Huh?
What is the connection between increased gang rapes in Iraq and Islam? Are you even trying to make sense here or just killing time?
Religion is a personal matter. It only becomes a public matter when someone tries to force their religious beliefs on others, or uses religion as a justification for doing something they shouldn't be doing. Such as killing someone for not being "Islamic enough".
P.S. I agree that groups that profess to working for "womens rights" should be concerned with all women. Unfortunatley, I still haven't heard anything but the sound of crickets chirping from established womens rights groups here in the states when the subject of the treatment of women in Islamic societies is brought up. Then it is "none of our business" or "we can't criticize them because Billy-Bob is still beating his wife here". Still seems like selective outrage or sheer cowardice to me.
Spartanladkenny, well said.
Medusa, thanks! Trying to figure out what I said now.
Re Moon God - with very few exceptions, the sun gods were male and the moon gods were female.
Jahovah?
- (yahweh) - yah=lord; - / - jo-, jah-, -iah (from) yah, yahu (from) yahwe, yahweh (from) ya'hweh, YHWH (from) yod hawa, yod haya, Y HWH=(orig) I eve, I am, I exists, I brings into existence, (later) to be, to become, I cause, (later) he who causes, (later) the self-existing one, eternal (later) god; [see (yahweh), (ya'), (hwh) in Name Elements];
- (ya') - ya' (from) yad (from) yod=(orig) hand, open hand, an extended hand, thrust, I, me, to me, (later) power, strength, terror, concealed sower of future generations, (later) hand of god, finger of god; /// yah= egyptian moon god; ///yah=the bull is born;
- / - eve=life, life giving, life giver, living one, (epithet) mother of all, mother of all living; - / - eve (from) hwh;
- (hwh) - hyh (from) hwh (from) hea, heya, hiya=(orig) life, serpent, teacher, life giver, (later) eve; - / - hyh=to be, to exist, to become, to cause to appear, to happen, to live, lively, to cause to rise, to come to pass; chay, chai=life; chava, chaya=to live, to breath; hayya, hewya=serpent; hawah=snake mother of all living things; - / - hyh=chayah, chaya, hayah, haya; - / - hwh=chawwah, chawah, chawa, hawwah, hawah, hawa, chava, hava, chavah, havah; - / - hwh=(orig) wind, to breath, breath of life, (later) to form, to mold, to become, to cause to become, to make live, to happen, (later) to be, being, to exist, living, life, (later) the creater, life-giver, the source of life, self-exisitant, eternal, (later) to bow in reverence, to worship, to instruct, to show, to declare, to inform, to explain, to interpret, (later) woman, eve, mother of all living; [see (hwh) in Name Elements];
Actually, the Quran was up for debate. The Bible just got pulled in because of the holier than thou attitude of some Christians on this page.
Bligh - it's all up for debate. It's all (as I said before) stories made up to explain the unexplainable. It's fantasy. It doesn't have to make sense.
These forums always evolve into wider discussions. All religions have their nasty sides. The problems in places like Basra are often a combination of culture, history, and distorted religion. Muslims in America are not the same as Muslims in Iraq or Iran or Saudi Arabia. Christians in much of Europe are not like fundamentalists in America.
Wow, I thought this forum was for discussing the rape and killing of the women in Basra for not being "Islamic Enough".
I will say that the Christian Bible seems up for debate while the Muslim Quran is not. Why is that?
While criticizing Liberals most conservatives and Liberal haters forget that every transformation in the human society was brought about by Progressive and liberal thinkers. I firmly believe that progressives of any society think 20 years ahead of their time and try to implement those views while conservatives present stiff resistance to maintain status quo. Eventually conservatives give in because the Pros of change become too obvious with time. But by then Progressive move on to other things to fight for and cycle continues. If conservatives stop being stubborn and step outside their shells, the world will be a transformed place by tomorrow.
Irish
I really detest being dragged into a low-level argument like this because you refuse (or choose not) to accept the principle of the argument here: if I were debating with a Taliban, they too would be selective in what they present of their tenets and air-brush away any negatives as irrelevant or minor details as you seem to be doing.
But you insisted on examples, so please read the following and explain how (a) they are philosophical bastions for sanity and (b) how they differ in principle from the a'la carte maimings doled out by sharia law:
FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS
"Honor thy father and thy mother..."-- Exodus 20:12
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. " -- Luke 14:26
"And he that curseth his father or his mother, shall surely be put to death." --Exodus 21: 17
SEEING GOD
"... I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." -- Genesis 32:30
"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18
THE POWER OF GOD
"... with God all things are possible." -- Matthew 19:26
"...The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." -- Judges 1:19
PUNISHING CRIME
"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father..." -- Ezekiel 18:20
"I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation..." -- Exodus 20:5
RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD
"...he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. " -- Job 7:9
"...the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth...." -- John 5:28-29
And the blatant (selective again) confusion of the ancient worship of Al-lat, Al-uzza, and Manat with the origins and claims of Islam does a serious disservice to your position. Shouldn't you, at least beg to differ from them rather than playing the age-old silly "my god is better than yours" mud sling?
The point is: our unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation has reversed it's secularism to the point where the bodies of raped and murdered young women litter the street because someone's religious judgement deems them "bad" - I find that UNACCEPTABLE!
ezeflyer - good point.
And don't you just love the way regressives have the only true moral values? Because we liberals and progressives promote immorality, don't you know?
Irish
Yes, there isn't enough space on these forums nor is this the relevant place to discuss the subject. However, you did not answer my question and instead gave me the gist of the entire bible. When I asked for compilation of the bible I was talking about history of sources from where the words of Jesus were put together as a collection. I was asking you if you knew about Christian history of the first 3 centuries, the times of Iraneus and Eusebius, the parallel theories about Jesus' existence and their clash with the "proto" Orthodox understanding of Jesus.
I also asked you a few things about Muslims. Care to share your views on those? I'm just curious how much you know about Islam before making posts calling the Muslim God "Moon God" and posting traditions narrated by Bukhari.
So again, are you aware of the different Islamic schools of belief and their chains of sources? I'm pretty sure you aren't. If not then you should refrain from commenting on topics which you're ignorant about.
Proverbs 15:14
The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.
Eyewitness accounts translated from one ancient language to another and then into modern languages! Try translating something from Hebrew into, oh, I don't know... Russian, and then into English. It will be nothing like the original. (Yeah, I am aware that people who believe it's God's word think god had a hand in the translations and all that.) In addition, all the stories are subject to interpretation. There is no more proof whatsoever that they are eyewitness accounts than the myths of the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Ancient Celts, or Native Americans.
How do you "know" the people who wrote the Bible were "really there." You don't know. It is impossible to know. That's what faith is. It's believing something you cannot know. Period.
What is truly beyond pathetic is the insistence of attaching absolute truth to something you can't prove, didn't witness, is contradictory beyond explanation, and simply a matter of faith.
Humans have attempted to explain the unexplainable for eons. The myth of the king who willingly dies to save humanity is not unique to Christianity. It's just another form of symbolism for the life-death-life cycle.
There is no way for a non-believer to use logic or rationality to sway the beliefs of true-believers. Nor is there a way for true-believers to use "but it says it in the Bible and people witnessed it and wrote it down" as a way to persuade the reality based community to accept ancient mythology as truth.
You can believe whatever you want - of course you have the right to do so. I am sure your religion adds beauty, meaning and a moral compass to your life, as it should. But that does not mean it's true, nor does it mean you "know." There is no way to know. One can only believe.
Irish:
If Jesus had been a conservative, he would have charged for miracles, owned the Coliseum and sold tickets for the lions/Christians show. Plus as the conservative son of God, he would absolutely CRUSH all the liberals.
And IrishEddie - god has SUCH great love for his creation that he created Satan (because he created EVERYTHING) and allowed people to be seduced by evil. He absolutely gives no living proof (Jesus is NOT LIVING PROOF) that anything in the Bible is real and then sends people to eternal torment for not buying into it. Now THAT is real, unconditional love!
There's a great article in Harper's December issue that discusses God's Great Punishment Scheme. It doesn't matter how "benevolent" god might have been to sacrifice his only begotten son - and it would be horrendous enough to think that god requires his beloved son to die a long, anguished death as atonement for "sins" - a god who would send any living creature to eternal damnation, torture, and the most dreadful pain and suffering imaginable JUST FOR NOT BELIEVING IN THE UNBELIEVABLE is not benevolent, loving, or even just. I believe that might be called "cruel and unusual punishment." The ultimate thought police.
What a horrible belief system! Christians act like it's so awful that Muslim men torture, rape, or kill women for what they wear, but the Christian god does much, much, much worse for what people THINK. Not nice, not admirable, not anything good at all. Just plain old ugly, exclusionary, and a way for Christians to think they are so much better than everyone else, they get to go hang out with god while all the other souls get to roast in hell. How lovely.
VAUDREE - wonderful explanation, thank you. Like somebody opened a window and let light and air in. It really clears the fog of ignorance and passions (mine too). I'm keeping a copy and checking out the link. Great contribution to the forum. Knowledge is the best medicine.
Hey, IrishEddie - Jesus was a liberal, why aren't you?
Hey, IrishEddie - it's STILL all made up stories.
Conservatives = fearful = superstitious = reactionaries = authoritarians = totalitarians = tyranny
"Now remember, Muslims claim that these words are directly from the mouth of the all knowing God, word for word, unlike the idea of Christian revelation. In other words, this is straight dictation of truth from God Himself!!!"
I missed this gem. It really proves your idiocy. The Quran is the "direct" word from God. Traditions are words from the Prophet which were passed on for generations (200-300 yrs) before being documented by some gentlemen who were appointed by the ruling Caliph. The traditions were passed on by word of mouth from Father to son. There are many cases where the original source wasn't present at the said incident but had heard it from someone else. In the end the entire process also had a political slant to it. Needless to say there are multiple errors in the document. However I will agree that many muslims believe that the Sahihs are perfect documents after the Quran which is wrong IMO.
Can you explain the idea of Christian revelations? Between scribal reproduction of scriptures based on personal opinions to Paul's claim to apostleship through Jesus appearing in his dreams, what do you know about the process of compilation of the Bible?
Again, I don't prefer such arguments because I could care less what you believe in but your claims about the Bible can be refuted without explanation just by reading Biblical texts.
Irish -
Are you aware of different schools of Islam and their traditions? Do you have the knowledge of Sahih process of validation of traditions?
Besides are you even aware of posting traditions by Bukhari for an issue which is apparently a "Shia" Iraq issue?
I do applaud your courage in calling people ignorant when you're just another one of those copy paste queens of the internet. I prefer not to get into those "Your religion sucks too" arguments but Christianity has its own set of crazy laws which come straight from the bible.
Irish:
one word, "IRONY". Ever heard of it? The following line also holds true --- "If you read certain portions of the BIBLE you get the feeling that it is a disjointed rambling discourse done by a borderline psychotic."
Irony 2: You read like it's okay for you to bully and abuse whoever doesn't conform to your (redefined from extreme rightwing Calvinism to whatever it is at the moment) view justified by the claim that liberals would kill you if they took over?!? Wow!
Irony 3: Your (I would suggest myopic) view that only Priests/Christian religiosos are helping the needy is exactly THAT: myopic. Ever heard of a little outfit called Médecins Sans Frontières? No?
Anyway, I suggest you accept that not everyone will find religious beliefs important in their lives and that this does not disqualify them from either expressing moral outrage where they judge it so, or acting to right a perceived wrong!
Back to the story: another glaring testimony to demonstrate that only secularism really works! You simply cannot allow anyone to impose whimsical laws that are dictated to them by their all-powerful imaginary friends, however devout they may be towards that belief system!
"Sharia law is not Shia law" a distinction without a difference. Someone should tell that to the Iranian women that are being attacked or arrested by the religious police in their Shia country.
"Saddam was NOT an asshole" Nah, he was just a psychopathic mass murderer with two equally murderous sons. Of course, he did kill the islamists and everyone else that got out of line.
I think that many Muslims would feel quite offended if they heard us say that rape and spousal abuse was part of their culture. Rape and spousal abuse is like AIDs - endemic diseases that need to be wiped out.
Rape would not be mentioned in the Geneva Convention if it was not used as a weapon of war to terrorize and humiliate the enemy. Even Christopher Columbus raped - though I think he did so for his personal enjoyment because he was a disgusting piece of dirt. He says so in his own diaries - he was not ashamed of it.
Part of it is to distinguish between your own who should not be raped and the sub-human enemy which it was ok to rape - though I doubt that everyone who raped the enemy made that distinction.
In every war, they make the enemy sub-human because it is easier to kill and do horrible things to people that are deemed subhuman.
What we need to realise is that Iraq, like Afghanistan, is made up of many different cultural, religious and pseudo religious groups. There are those who will subvert any religion so as to give those who serve them some bounty in return for service.
BTW - in Afghanistan, the warlords have harems of little boys. I think that little boys should be protected from sexual abuse as well.
Saddam liked power and wealth and was determined to keep it at any cost.
After the first gulf war, he could not do good even if he wanted to - the materials needed to fix the water treatment plants bombed during the first gulf war were considered "dual use" - meaning the Americans would not let the materials be shipped into Iraq.
Both Saddam and Jean Cretien had sons who were guilty of rape - Saddam prevented his son from going to jail and serving time for his crimes - so the crimes continued.
Quote: " Alice in Wonderland December 18th, 2007 12:49 pm
Congratulations, Bligh, .... ..."
Funny, Alice; and right.
Quote: "vaudree December 18th, 2007 1:15 pm
Saddam Hussain may have been a asshole, but at least Iraq was a secular state under his rule."
I DO NOT think it's that he was an asshole as much as too strict, and like the quoted Iraqi Liberal of the Iraqi Communist Party said, 'retarded', i.e, backwards, needing to wake up and improve.
Your presidents, Congress and Senate, DoJ, and so on, now these are full of [assholes].
Quote: " glide625 December 18th, 2007 1:17 pm
Excuse me but I think we're missing a point here; the fate of Muslim women is decided in Muslim culture by the Muslim Laws and Regulations, i.e. Sharia Law and that law is intended to apply to Muslim communities around the globe. ..."
Now that is an ignoramus' perspective. You're atrociously misinformed dude. Sharia Law is NOT Muslim law; it is Shia Muslim law, and MANY Shiites disagree with it. Time for you to get a real education, dude!
But while you're very wrong or mistaken about that, you're right about this, "Simply put, it's not Westerner's place to interfere in Muslim Cultural affairs". That's trivial to realise though.
Quote: "ezeflyer December 18th, 2007 1:18 pm
Priests, Reverends, Imams and Rabbis, today's witch doctors."
Now for ignoramuses who can't think and write better than that, I recommend the article by Rev. Skaff that I provided a link for in my post on the article by G. Porter and for which a link is provided in my prior post above.
People like to forget that while a majority of "Christians" of the U.S., a serious majority depending on which denomination we consider, the least having been represented by I believe the RCC and the Presbytarians, these people did not form the 77% of Americans who strongly supported launching the war on Iraq all while hellbent ignoring the fact that the congressional authorisation for this war was dead in the water due to the very successful UN weapons inspections, which no one had any reason to not know that the CHENEY-Bush administration forced to come to a halt, to be abandoned.
NOPE, not just "Christian" and "Jewish" Americans formed that 77%. There were also atheist, gay, and anti-church or anti-religion Americans too.
Remember the many gay Americans who bitched like ferocious dogs to be accepted into the U.S. military and while it was wholly clear that they'd be serving in this totally criminal war on Iraq? Don't remember that, eh! Remember it. I don't recall being made aware of any other segment in the U.S. being so ferociously for serving in the Iraq war; MANY others having strong supported this war and for a long time, but I never read or heard of any other segment being this nightmarish.
Of course those insane people did NOT represent all gays, either; just like those "Christians", "Jews", "atheists", ... did not represent all others professing to be of these categories.
Americans who are false Christians and Jews are found among the laities and the "leaderships" of these religions, but that is to be expected, for these people are human, and it doesn't matter which human grouping we consider, there are always wicked and demented members.
In any case, U.S. history has pretty much made it a certainty that the U.S. is NO fertile ground for the development of real Christianity or Judaism. The really true-to-professed-faith in these religions, as well as Muslim, in the U.S. are minorities; or at least that is evidently the case for the Christian and Jewish faiths anyway. Maybe it does not apply with Muslim Americans.
People fault the (false) Christian Americans, yet it is not they who own the huge msm, corporate news media, Disney, Hollywood, etc.; it's Zionist Jews and therefore false Jews who do. And these media account for more wickedness than the Christian Americans do; but it's the latter that get particularly flamed against or about, more so.
Nonetheless, they are all puppets; they don't influence anyone except the idiots among the general public. See Rev. Skaff's article, and anyone who thinks he's mistaken is an idiot. He knows very well what he's talking about and it's very important. Going well with it is the article for which I provided a link immediately after the one for Skaff's, the piece by Joseph Massad and on the Israeli Lobby.
Both of them KNOW what the real reality [IS]. And it's really commonsense enough; but the U.S. is full of idiots, and mal-informed and uninformed fools.
Quote: " metamorph December 18th, 2007 1:49 pm
There is nothing wrong with just being a moral person who does not pay any attention to any cleric."
True.
"...
This article here is again a huge turnoff on all the clerics of all fundamentalist brands of religion. The salem withc hunt was just another example of their viciousness.
..."
The article is no turnoff at all; in no way is that true. You're not treating the article for what it is, which is news reporting on the situation for women in Iraq today, and as opposed to what the situation was under Saddam Hussein's regime, which, as the Liberal Iraqi of the Iraqi Communist Party reminds, was MUCH better than it's been since his regime was overthrown by the hellbent U.S. and its allies. If what's going on for the women there now happened when he was in power, then woe for the criminals committing these crimes! He'd be putting not just an end to these crimes, but also to the people committing these acts, once and for all time making them past tense, history.
Ali Al-Fadhily did not write the article as he did in order to demonise the Muslims, clerics or otherwise; he's doing objective reporting, providing comparative input or information, and it does as I just said above, for we all know that Saddam was Sunni but also against theocratic governance. Even the Sunni cleric that al-Fadhily quoted says that while the women should follow strict enough Muslim dress codes, not doing so certainly should NOT be treated with punishment.
Al-Fadhily knows very well that we are aware of the brutality committed by so-called and really false Christians throughout MUCH of history; he's not intending to provide comparitive religious analysis at all. We should not expect it either; he's reporting on the situation [IN] Iraq TODAY. In so doing, he's illustrating again that this war and the occupation, the occupiers' leaders, commanders, etc., are really responsible, guilty.
And Al-Fadhily therefore succeeded, instead of at all failing in this reporting. It's up to readers to OPEN THEIR MINDS and to think [critically]; as people who are adequately informed, which everyone should certainly be by now, and critically capable of [thinking], reasoning.
You went too soft, metamorph; well intended, but off-base with respect to the purpose of this article.
Etc.
No more comments; am sure people will find this to be minimally enough.
I'm shocked and about to collapse with this sort of real madness. It's enough to cause imagining picking up a gun and killing every s.o.b. that harms any women.
"bligh December 18th, 2007 12:33 pm
Should they just be left to their fate? Why aren't womens groups, who are so quick to find oppression in the West, saying anything?"
Nice idea, but nice would not make the slightest difference in the world. What good do you think it could possibly do if Western women protested over this?
I don't think it'd make any difference.
Quote:"Edward1793 December 18th, 2007 12:45 pm
Just another example of why religious extremists should be locked up."
I don't know that they should be locked up, but they'd need to be, if what I have in mind, first, did not work. What's needed is for the leader of the Badr Brigade or Organisation, etc., the Ayatollah Ali Al-Sistani to get off his damn idle ass and correct the religious teachings of these sickeningly indoctrinated believers. If he does not see that this is all hellbent wrong, then he and the rest indeed should all be imprisoned.
But, alas, it's entirey the fault of the U.S., including 77% of Americans, all of whom disgustingly supported this then wholly unjustifiable war; even the mere mention of potentially launching this war was not only and wholly unjustifiable, it was wholly and extremely criminal. Just the mere mention of the U.S. govt potentially doing this was enough to justify incarcerating the damn Cheney-Bush administration ... FOREVER.
So Americans have themselves to blame for what these Iraqi women are now going through, albeit it's not new. It's been going on for a long time already, and due to this war. Saddam Hussein would have never permitted these or any other atrocious acts, crimes against Iraqi women, regardless of which religious faith they are or were.
When we read about this being done to these women, REMEMBER, IT IS THE FAULT OF THE U.S. AND IT'S DAMN HELLBENT ALLIES.
I posted links to wholly and otherwise sufficiently pertinent articles in a comment on Gareth Porter's article on the NIE matter.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/18/5874/#comment-160057
WHAT MAKES IRAQ A MUSLIM CULTURE, GLIDE 625?
The women being targeted in Basra are mainly members of the Christian minority. Iraq has one of the world's oldest Christian communities, and there are still tens of thousands of Christians and other non-Muslims living there. Christian Iraqi women don't wear headscarves -- unless things get ugly and they have to blend in with the crowd. Otherwise, they're easy targets.
You may not be aware, but before the Muslims took over, Iraq was mostly Christian (long before much of Europe was). Under Saddam, a nationalist, and undoubtedly an evil man, there was no Muslim theocracy as there is in Saudi Arabia and Iran (the only Muslim theocracies). Women freely went around in short sleeves, blue jeans, knee-length skirts and were unveiled. They wore make-up. They could be educated, work in "typically male" professions (engineering, etc.). Iraq was known as one of the most progressive places in the Middle East. Basra in particular was a comparatively free-wheeling place.
Thanks to Bush and co., this is no longer the case.
Irish, what do you have against witch doctors?
to glide625
..."belief that somehow Western Culture and values are in some way superior to that of other cultures.
Simply put, it's not Westerner's place to interfere in Muslim Cultural affairs..." Oh yes it is!!!
It is when they're wrong and unjust. And yes, the West has many faults - but in this respect their values are superior. Yes, they are and non-Westerners would do well to catch up. When you live in the West, you live by Western rules and not ancient superstition passing for morality. Stop being so danged offended at every little piece of free speech! Get with the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, learn how to reason, to frikkin' THINK!!! Stop romanticizing injustice and cruelty! Stop dragging everybody back to the Dark Ages!
Peter Julian
NEWS: NDP BILL WILL HELP COMBAT GLOBAL HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS
OTTAWA – On the anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Peter Julian (Burnaby–New Westminster) introduced his private member's bill, to extend the authority of Canada's Federal Court to protect foreign citizens against violations of international law that occur outside of Canada. On December 10, 1948, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations.
The International Promotion and Protection of Human Rights Act (IPPHRA) was developed in close cooperation with Nick Milanovic, Adjunct Professor at the Department of Law of Carleton University, and Mark Rowlinson, Counsel for the United Steelworkers. It is endorsed by the Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers.
This innovative bill will hold violators accountable for gross human rights abuses regardless of where they take place. The IPPHRA would allow lawsuits in Canada for a host of universal human rights violations such as genocide and torture. In addition, it would prohibit activity that significantly degrades the environment or violates key international labour rights. The proposed legislation will allow the victims of these human rights abuses to obtain damages from the perpetrators of these injustices.
"It is high time that Canadian corporate entities lead by example and take responsibility for human rights abuses committed by their corporations outside Canadian borders," said Julian. "This bill would ensure that victims can seek compensation and would ultimately discourage corporations and individuals from disregarding basic human rights."
The United States has had legislation that grants its courts the authority to enforce international law since 1789. American courts have interpreted these laws to apply to a host of international human rights claims such as genocide and slavery. These laws have allowed lawsuits against dictators, generals, police and paramilitary groups as well as against corporations allegedly involved in various international human, environmental and labour rights abuses.
"This proposed legislation condemns international human rights abusers who are, in essence, enemies of all humankind. It is now time for each federal representative to declare themselves for the human dignity of each person on this globe by voting for this bill," stated Milanovic.
http://www.peterjulian.ca/page/565
NEWS: NDP CONDEMNS GOVERNMENT'S WEAKNESS ON DEFENDING HUMAN RIGHTS
NEWS: NDP CALLS ON HARPER TO ACT ON CORPORATE SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY
NEWS: NDP CALLS ON HARPER NOT TO TRADE AWAY HUMAN RIGHTS
IN THE HOUSE ~ Member's Statement - Ottawa must commit to ending human rights abuse in Sri Lanka
NEWS: NDP MPs fight for women's rights on and off the slopes
everything that's going wrong in Iraq is because the americans bombed and bulldozed and wrecked the country. Women in Iraq were ok before. it's true muslim fundamentalists are wacko, but they run wild only after the american military creates the chaos upon which they thrive. anything that goes bad in Iraq that was not broke before the u.s. came is our fault. and now it's our job to try to fix it.
Capricorn, I think Maher Arar pointed out that Christs mother wore one.
bligh, Stephen Lewis is retired, so you would have a better chance with his foundation - this was on The Hour
http://www.cbc.ca/thehour/video.php?id=705
Also, you first have to find out who has the "status of women" critic portfolio (Irene Mathyssen) - though sometimes you get something with the citizenship and immigration critic portfolio (Olivia Chow), or the justice critic portfolio (Wayne Marston), or the trade critic (Peter Julian) - though the latter tends to be mainly about workers rights in trade agreements.
Mathyssen seems to have a lot on women's rights but it is more local. Chow, seems to focus on more general immigration issues which affect both men and women with the exception of that petition on comfort women.
Marston also seems interested in the comfort women and the Italians,
ON IRAN: Marston investigates gender inequality
http://www.waynemarston.ca/page/119
ON RACISM: Marston statement on the International Day for the Elimination of Racism
ON CHINA: Marston investigates changing human rights environment
ON CHINA: "We need to push harder at China on the issue of human rights."
ON CHINA: Marston emphasizes need for consensus when dealing with China
IN THE HOUSE: Marston pushes for Special Envoy to China
ON CHINA: Fragile relationship "the best you can truly hope for"
ON CHINA: Olympics an opportunity to improve human rights
Let us be honest: the Koran sanctions rape. Mohammed himself raped many women and had a sexual relationship with his 6 year old cousin wife. Female captives and unbelievers are fair game, according to Allah, as are prepubescent girls. The Koran, which all Muslims believe is directly from Allah, says "the woman is your field, to plow her as pleases you."
The Bible contains its share of misogyny and violence, too.
Religious literalism, taking texts from barbaric bronze-age tribes as divine revelation, is always and everywhere dangerous.
CFL=NFL only Canadian
Of course clothing is a matter of choice. I was pointing out the zealots misuse of cultural choice of clothing as "gospel". And the media plays this up to no end. It feeds into their negative portrayal of Islam. The kicking of little girls out of the soccer tournament was a disgraceful act of xenophobia = Islamophobia?
By the way the Hijab was worn before the birth of Islam by peoples across the region.
Oh it just may be that the sight of a naked female earlobe arouses some Arab men to lustful thoughts - if not actions. Just as Western men become excited at the flash of a thigh in a slit skirt.
Thus covering all women up head to toe is really for their own protection even though it might make for some wedding night surprises.
Sue Stroud - "Bligh, rather than point fingers why don't you get out there yourself". I tried. Last May my wife and I applied to have a booth at the "Human rights festival" calling attention to the plight of women in Muslim countries. We were turned down and called "Islamophobes" for our trouble.
Quoting "IrishEddie" – "Perhaps you should read Pope Leo X's Encyclical Rerum Novarum in which he clearly stands for the rights of the working MAN...." Eddie, do you see how much a part of the problem you are here? Popes have been as dangerous to society (and especially to women) as any group could possibly be. And where in the bible does Jesus say "Go forth, and wear funny tall hats and brocade dresses"?
"Women's rights are the responsibility of humankind; combating all forms of violence against women is the duty of all humankind; and achieving empowerment of women is the advancement of all humankind."
United Nations Secretary - General Kofi Annan
1. When Clinton was hoping to trade with the Taliban, it was women's groups here in the US that shamed the administration into breaking that off. Bligh isn't paying attention to what women are saying, apparently - it's a universal problem.
2. No use cutting it off - doctors are very good at putting them back on. In Thailand, the women know what to do with a blender, however.
3. The purpose of patriarchal religion (which seems to be just about all religion, although there are rumors that women once ruled the field) is the control and distribution of available snatch. The 'holy' bible can fairly be read as a long diatribe against femininity and feminine freedom - and that goes double for the Quran. Whatever freedom or rights women have gained (even the right to humane obstetrical care!) has always been in opposition to religion.
Greaseman: "You will only find outrage on this site if America, or one of its surrogates, is perpetrating the crime. Millions starving in North Korea? Who cares. Ethnic cleansing and stolen elections in Zimbabwe? Yawn. Imperialistic threats by China against democratic Taiway? Boring…"
I'm sorry if you are disappointed that CD doesn't conform to the line of the US foreign policy establishment. Maybe the reason you find particular outrages against US crimes here is because no one else wants to pay any attention to it anywhere else. If you want outrage over the other purported crimes, there is FOX, CNN, MSNBC, the network news, New York Times, Daily Post, Washington Post, Washington Times, International Herald Tribune, AP wire, UPI wire, State Department press releases, talk radio, Weekly Standard, Commentary... the list goes on forever. In sum, if you want something other than a perspective critical of US foreign policy you won't have to look far.
Bligh is way out of touch. Women's groups in the west have been screaming about this for years and do more to confront this nonsense every day. But the US media blocks their voices (must be religious orders from Bush or something). Turn off the TV America and find out what's really going on in the world. And Bligh, rather than pointing fingers get out there in the street yourself!
I guess there's nothing in Islamic "law" to say that rape is bad in itself? What a contradiction.. a woman may not be out and about with a male non-family member/husband, yet a male non-family member may rape her with impunity.
I wish the Islamic women of the world would take their kitchen knives and do something useful (read: "castration") with them if these women happen to fall into the wrong hands.
So the Taliban now rules by fear in Iraq, as well as in Afghanistan. Some much for all that right-wing crowing about "Progress in Iraq."
Mind you, this is the same situation that James Dobson, Pat Robertson and their idiot followers want to see here....
Wouldn't it be great fun to send an all-female Marines unit into Sadr City, to sort out these crazed Islamic nutjobs?? Then they could come back to Colorado Springs and sort out all the wackos here!!
The Organization for Women's Freedom in Iraq's Houzan Mahmoud has written an excellent piece that is posted on Open Democracy challenging the excuse that culture is an acceptable explanation for violence against women in the Middle East. She writes,
"I challenge those who justify the killing, abuse, and oppression of women on the basis that they are part of Middle Eastern "culture". But I am also here to challenge those who say these things are not part of Islam.I am here to say that yes, what is happening to women is because of political Islam in all its forms, in power and in opposition. Religious laws are not simply a matter of "culture"; they are barbaric and inhumane practices which are used deliberately to repress women and segregate them from the rest of the world.
We, the women of the world, need to make it clear that women's rights are universal. They transcend culture, religion, nation, border and tradition. Our struggle for freedom and equality is global and must engage all women, regardless of their background. We need to fight the influence of religion in public life and the religious laws that - in the Middle East and throughout the world - help perpetuate the oppression of half the world's population."
bligh says: Not blaming anyone here. Just pointing out that groups that are supposed to support women's rights don't seem to have a thing to say about this.
Are you accusing the NDP of remaining silent on this issue?
Are you accusing Rabble.ca of not discussing these issue?
Are you accusing Stephen Lewis (Naomi Klein's father-in-law) of being silent concerning the issue of women's rights?
Are women in the Canada and US not working with women elsewhere who are fighting for their rights?
And are there not women out there willing to stand up for what they believe in?
Malalai Joya kicked out of Afghan parliament
The expulsion of this outspoken feminist illustrates the hollowness of the claims of women's advancement under occupation, something that is confirmed by human rights reports that tell of continuing women's inequality.
(cont)
http://www.rabble.ca/everyones_a_critic.shtml?sh_itm=12a77ded754bdc45e374d28cf4070a22&rXn=1&
bligh - check this website out:
http://feministpeacenetwork.org/
You will find a lot of information about this topic here. Atrocities are kept track of and we do protest.
You will only find outrage on this site if America, or one of its surrogates, is perpetrating the crime. Millions starving in North Korea? Who cares. Ethnic cleansing and stolen elections in Zimbabwe? Yawn. Imperialistic threats by China against democratic Taiway? Boring...
The reason Moslem women must conceal their hair, faces, and bodies in public is that that Moslem men are violent, impulsive and and untrustworthy.
OK, that's an unfair generalization. But it should be a source of shame to every male of any culture that their women cannot dress comfortably and move about unescorted.
We cannot claim that our society is free of sexual violence, and there are some Christian sects here that still regard women as chattel. But I think we still have the right to ridicule Moslem men putting the burden of "honor" entirely on their women.
Are you men incapable of "honor"?
Sharia law isn't the law of the Koran. It's the law of the ancient nomadic tribe. When you live tents, as the Arabs once did, your women can be abducted almost as easily as your goats. No wonder they kept them confined and invisible.
Mohammed brought a new message of personal morality and responsiblity to the people of Arabia. The continued subjugation of women should be an indication of Islam's failure to promote the Prophet's teachings.
It's going to be hard to start this is lawless places like Iraq and Afghanistan, but I'd like to see the men of the Moslem world become motivated to prove how morally superior they are to the men of the West - as measured by the freedom their women enjoy.
I live in a college town and see womens rights groups protesting fairly regularly. Again, I have never seen this particular topic discussed. I also just went to the NOW website, nothing on there either. Abuse of women, whether in this country or others, should be equally unacceptable.
The idea of cultural relativism is BS. We all occupy a global village--have to have some standards of conduct.
Ethical conduct and fairness are mathematical in their certainty. Its a simple formulation like 2 = 2 = 4.
In the big scheme of things maybe morality doesnt matter--but in the small scale of things there is a consistency factor at work.
It can be applied to any human society on Earth.
Example: everyone has a word for "sun" and can know what it means.
You can relate to others because they share that idea.
In morality--it works the same way. Every culture has some concept of moral regard--that you have a group (yourself usually included) and you feel you deserve consideration, respect, and you expect this to be honored by others.
But if you discriminate against others and say they are less than you--then you face the problem of why should someone honor your "rights" if you exclude others? What makes you so special?
This is true whether its about race, religion, gender, species...It works for all of them.
I can effectively argue against an Inuit hunter by saying: why should you have the right to life and respect when you say a whale doesnt? If you can say you are superior to a whale why cant I say I am superior to you?
For muslim men it works the same. Why should I have respect for your rights when you dont respect women?
You do get into the problem of "but God says I am better than others."
But how do you prove that?
It becomes my God vs your God. It cancels out.
At the end of the day volcanos dont spew their lava in ways that kill the infidel and spare the believer.
Fairness is mathematical--common sense. But people just choose to ignore it or succumb to irrationality.
Glide625, Jewish meddling in the west bank is based on their interpretation of scripture, culture, and history. Simply put, it is no Muslim´s place to interfere with Jewish Cultural affairs.¨ Right?
Now cut off another clitoris and have another gang rape. It´s cultural, ya know?
It is estimated that about 25% of all women in our military have been sexually assaulted by fellow military personnel, quite often superiors. Worse yet, those women coming forward to report the assaults are usually made to suffer for it with little if any justice. And that is just the US military. Should we blame religious beliefs for these outrages? I think not. This is cultural. It only becomes a religious claim when those who assault integrate it into their religious belief system, just as our Kristian Right justifies harassing and condemning those with different sexual orientation, justifying pre-emptive war or suppressing women's rights to control their own lives. Much the same happens among any extremist group. It would seem that Irish believes that one cannot be a "liberal" without justifying abuses because he is a devout Catholic who sees himself as conservative, opposes such abuses, he therefore assumes that "liberals" would think the opposite. As a proud member of the religious left who happens to be a Christian, I hope that Irish and many other conservative religious might come to realize that we share a tremendous common moral base. The most unfortunate aspect of the ongoing extreme right political campaign in this nation has been to plant, nay embed, the false idea that there is such a broad moral divide.
glide625, "Simply put it's not Westerners place to interfere with Muslim Cultural affairs".
Well true, westerners wouldn't interfere if they would just keep their damn camels and tents away from the drilling rigs!.
bligh - as a member of N.O.W., and reader of a WIDE variety of feminist literature, believe me - the womens groups out there are VERY vocal against what is happening to women all over the world. Actions are being taken, American women have gone to these countries to work with the women, support them, often helping them ESCAPE, locating funding for these women and children, and more. I kind of doubt you and I are on the same wavelength with regard to what we read. I wait for the day (and will not live to see it happen) when men around the world hold MEN accountable for their shameful actions against women, children, and other living beings.
As for "glide" who wrote "Simply put, it's not Westerner's place to interfere in Muslim Cultural affairs," was that you being photographed partying under the trees where the dead negroes swung from nooses .... - I mean, you wouldn't have interfered with that, would you?
Namaste.
Bligh,
Which groups are saying nothing? Look up a few. What do they say? Would it be fair to say that their voices aren't being heard? Or are you thinking that they should make a public spectacle of themselves to draw attention to this? If so, what demonstration would be sufficient? What can you do to draw attention to this?
Craig
George W. Bush and the American Taliban.
Mission Accomplished
Not blaming anyone here. Just pointing out that groups that are supposed to support women's rights don't seem to have a thing to say about this. I also don't buy the "you can't say anything its their culture" arguement. Apartheid was part of the Afrikkaner culture and generated justifiable outrage. Pure cowardice in my book is the reason for the silence.
Most Muslim women that I've heard are dead set against Sharia law.
The Canadian Council of Muslim Women were very vocal in their opposition to the implementation of Sharia law in Ontario:
Islamic Principles are Equality, Social Justice and Compassion. These values are also articulated in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
http://www.ccmw.com/activitites/act_no_religious_arb.html
Though no one ever is as vocal as the Muslim Canadian Congress:
I will not give you MCC's "Sharia based Arbitration Racist and Unconstitutional" but will give you this:
Sharia Myths
myth: Other religions do faith-based family-law arbitrations.
fact: Only the Jewish Rabbinical Courts do, and they only handle a couple of cases each year.
myth: faith based arbitrations have been working well.
fact: In the only known study on the issue, Sally Armstrong found that Jewish women were generally ill-treated and unhappy with their experience with the Rabbinical Courts.
myth: Anti-sharia hysteria was generated because of islamophobia
fact: Actually, the fight against sharia courts was started and led by Muslims, many of whom have had personal experience with sharia and left their former countries to escape it. The only reason the Jewish Rabbinical Courts didn't generate the same response is that they hadn't required a new license to begin arbitrating family law cases. As such, few people were even aware of the limited number of family law arbitrations they did handle each year.
myth: no members of other religions are speaking out against their religious laws being used.
fact: Since only the Jews have been using religious arbitration, this only applies to them. Jews have overwhelmingly denounced the Rabbinical Courts for family law by not using them! Other Jews, and members of other religions, have joined the movement against religious tribunals for family law. Also, the Jews successfully petitioned the federal government in the 1990s to change the law to make it harder for religious arbitrations.
myth: Sharia is divine law.
fact: If it was divine, there would only be one version of it. Instead there are almost as many versions as there are Muslim communities. Moreover, it has evolved over time. The Sharia laws were developed by men and owe more to their cultures than to the Quran.
myth: Muslims who oppose sharia courts are not good Muslims.
fact: Canada exists as a multicultural nation because its civil institutions are secular. This provides the common ground that all cultures can meet on. Not only does the Quran not endorse sharia courts, the whole notion of such courts violates the letter and the spirit of the Quran. Engaging in debates over who is the better Muslim simply avoids dealing with the issue of what exactly does the Quran say on the subject.
myth: Muslims who oppose sharia courts are defaming Islam.
fact: A better case can be made that those who present an outdated and discriminatory legal code as a religious obligation of Islam are in fact doing the defaming.
myth: Sharia Law respects women's rights.
fact: Sharia Law gives women the rights that the men who developed it saw fit to give them. If applied correctly, it could be said to respect those rights, but as Dr. Kathryn Bullock of ISNA publicly admitted, no country has ever implemented it correctly. Moreover, the rights sharia gives women are neither the same as nor equivalent to those given to men. As such sharia is fundamentally incompatible with our Human Rights legislation.
myth: removing religious arbitrations is a violation of freedom of religion.
fact: Freedom of religion does not exempt anyone from the law. If it did, any crime could be committed under "freedom of religion". As long as all religions, including no religion, are treated equally there is no violation.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/18/5883/
There is nothing wrong with just being a moral person who does not pay any attention to any cleric.
Mitt Romney to show his tolerance, especially pointed out his respect for orthodox Jews and Muslims - both of them make a large display of praying daily.
The beautiful European cathedrals are empty - as Romney critical of that pointed out.
Well those folks know that religion has led to a lot of bloodshed- that is why !
Of course Mitt Romney is miffed because he was on a Mormon mission in France as a teenager for two years and I bet the people slammed the door in his face a lot. Frenchmen take their culture seriously even if they don't show up in a cathedral.
This article here is again a huge turnoff on all the clerics of all fundamentalist brands of religion. The salem withc hunt was just another example of their viciousness.
May their alms and coffers be empty. May everbody give to the human rights organizations and care, and the environment and leave these preachers unemployed.
ezeflyer: "Priests, Reverends, Imams and Rabbis, today's witch doctors."
But the question is, who are tomorrow's witch doctors?
Priests, Reverends, Imams and Rabbis, today's witch doctors.
Excuse me but I think we're missing a point here; the fate of Muslim women is decided in Muslim culture by the Muslim Laws and Regulations, i.e. Sharia Law and that law is intended to apply to Muslim communities around the globe. Western interference is yet again another example of imperial meddling in the belief that somehow Western Culture and values are in some way superior to that of other cultures.
Simply put, it's not Westerner's place to interfere in Muslim Cultural affairs.
Saddam Hussain may have been a asshole, but at least Iraq was a secular state under his rule.
"All proceeds "according to Plan", and Yes — the Surge/'war' is 'working' (just not the way publicly-pretended)."
And I DO mean a Plan both-side of our 'Aisle' formulated/enacted...
"Should they just be left to their fate? Why aren't womens groups, who are so quick to find oppression in the West, saying anything?"
They are saying-plenty, both here and there -- but their voices don't penetrate the cacophony and bluster of MSM/'party-line'/Propaganda any better than yours-does (or mine).
To be sure, none-of-above (or much anything-else since-and-before 9/11) was a 'mistake' or 'unintended consequence'. All proceeds "according to Plan", and Yes -- the Surge/'war' is 'working' (just not the way publicly-pretended).
Congratulations, Bligh, for being so quick to jump on the "blame the women" bandwagon. In fact, jumping on the bandwagon will be a new Olympic sport at the games in 2008, I hear. You are certainly in the running for a gold medal.
Just another example of why religious extremists should be locked up.
Should they just be left to their fate? Why aren't womens groups, who are so quick to find oppression in the West, saying anything?
"Many women say they are threatened with death if they do not obey."
Male superiority has always been the dominant theme in all religions. It's very clear in the Adam myth written in the second chapter of Genisis.
On the other hand, if you read "The Kabbalah Unveiled" by Knorr von Rosenroth, you will discover that the translators of the Bible have literally abolished or left out every reference to the fact that the "Deity" is both masculine and feminine. The Deity was androgynous! "The Ancient of Days" conforms himself simultaneously into the Father and Mother, and thus begets the Son. Prior to this transformation, "The earth was formless and void".
The Diety was apparently very comfortable combining the energies of the masculine and feminine, unlike most of his/her predecessors.
Re Hijab,
Yeah Capricorn, but why kick little girls out of soccer or out of school because they are wearing one. Let's just accept that it is important to them and not make them choose. We should be encouraging girls to stay in school. And we should be encouraging girls to play sports.
Look what we did to the Native Peoples with residential schools - we stripped them of their language and their culture and their identity.
People got to forge their own identity and decide for themselves what to include in it. Maybe later the girl will decide that a hijab is not who she is, maybe she won't - who cares! We let Saskatchewan Roughrider* fans wear hollowed out watermellon shells on their heads (we put up with their insessent gloating) - I think we can live with hijabs.
I don't doubt that there will be female Muslim Hockey players - but when that day comes - Team Canada will still beat Team USA!
*CFL=NFL only Canadian
Marriken- thanks for the link. They actually have something to say on the subject. I searched the "Stephen Lewis" and "NDP" websites and didn't see a word about it.
Maybe if we left Iraq alone, the Iraqi people would stop taking out their rage on each other. That's what this essentially is. They feel powerless because they have a giant boot stepping on them. Men who feel powerless often take it out on women.
bligh-Yes, American feminists have been outraged by the gender violence in Iraq. But as I said in another thread, that change has to come from within that culture, and those feminists totally get that. America can't impose our will on Iraq, especially when we still haven't achieved gender parity here and violence by men against women is still commonplace. Not to mention the fact that the neo-cons (who truly couldn't care less about the rights of women anywhere) just use this sort of thing as an excuse to "stay the course" in Iraq, and thusly continue to maim, kill, and fatten their bank accounts.
Irish Eddie-I agree with you in that Catholicism and Christianity in general needs to stop being kicked around (I was raised Catholic myself), and yes liberals can often be ineffectual. It's partly why I stopped posting here. The hyperbole, self-righteousness, self-loathing, proselytizing, smugness, encouraged resentment, and demonization got to be too much. People aren't going to come to our side if we're throwing vials of battery acid at them. It only subverts Progress, not the powers-that-be who pretty much have all of us fighting with each other. It ultimately leads to paralysis and impotence.
On the other hand, you're doing that a lot of liberals do in regards to Christianity. You're defining a faith by its underbelly.
There's nothing wrong with being Catholic, nor is there anything wrong with being a Muslim. Every religion has its extremists, manipulators, and frauds.
"Are you sure you liberals want the 'Religion of Peace' setting up mosques in our country like they are?"
Well, your tone indicates that your view of Islam isn't favorable.
I am not totally aware of what's going on in Ireland in regards to Catholic/Muslim relations. I did see a special on CNN that touched upon it, but again it's CNN, so I'm not going to take that bait. They showed some sort of town hall meeting, and the one Muslim I recall who was pounding his fist and calling for jihad appeared to be a plant in that he too over the top for me to buy him as legit. He was also rebutted by several moderate Muslims, one of whom declared him mentally ill. Anyway, I think it has more to do with the growing pains that are a side-effect of immigration.
I'm partly of Irish stock myself, and I'm a huge Thin Lizzy fan. That's about all I know. :)
Oh and as far as dress goes, who the hell cares? If we shouldn't get the vapors over women who choose to bare their features, we should do so over women who choose modesty. Quite frankly, and perhaps I'm a prude, I wish more women would choose to cover themselves instead of screaming "look at me please!" with their attire.
#
ezeflyer December 18th, 2007 1:18 pm
Priests, Reverends, Imams and Rabbis, today's witch doctors.
Witch's would rather you did not mention their names in the same sentence with "Priests, Reverends, Imams and Rabbis'.
It's actually just as demeaning to be forced to display sexual attributes to get jobs and attract husbands as it is to be forced to hide them.
Those people who are actually killing and raping women in the name of religion would probably just do it for fun anyway if laws did not stand in their way. Lawlessness has just turned them loose. They are all around everywhere, all the time, just one of the demons war always turns loose.
Wearing the Hijab has nothing to do with Islam. Do not confuse cultural with religion. Zealots of all religions identify faith with garb.
Iraq was a secular country before the USA and British invasion and occupation. The intent to destroy the country was not to "liberate" the populace from Saddam Hussein, but to feed the USA's energy needs to fuel their consumerist appetite, and military misadventures. The curse that has befallen the people of the Middle East region is oil. The West will continue to ensure instability of the region by their support of kingdoms, sheikdoms, militia's, dictators as long as they are willing lackeys of the big oil companies. Also factor Israel's role in this equation. Pity the peoples of the region.
Isn't a pity. When a human being develops breasts and a vagina, suddenly, this human becomes a feared object of control?
Ironically, within Iraq and Afghanistan, there were secular governments that did a great deal more protecting women's rights then do the present US-supported theocratically-directed governments.
Of course, this Islamic influence on Middle Eastern governments and culture was a response to the US's campaign of destroying left-wing, secular nationalist and Pan-Arabic governments and movements.
For example, a democratically elected government took power in Iran with the presidency of Mossedegh. Under the direction of the CIA (the lead man on the mission was Kermit Roosevelt), this government was deposed and it was replaced with a true semi-fascist secular government.
What were a poor people to do? The Shah of Iran at least allowed people to meet in mosques.
Viola! Since people were not allowed a secular expression of their desires and concerns, they naturally followed the religious route.
We can also observe this with the collapse of the PLO and the emergence of Hamas among the Palestinians.
In Third World countrie, when the US destroys all left-wing secular movements, usually religious groups take up the slack.
In South America, this relious path can go to the Left. (However, even in this instance, the Theology of Liberation movements were entangled with the Catholic Church's reactionary views of and proscriptions against woment.)
But mostly, religious protest and rebellion takes an Islamic or Hindi cast that reduces the control women have over their public and private lives.
And these religious movements are many times revolutions against actual secular fascist or semi-fascist governments supported by the US.
This wide spread social regression is simply an expression of a political and economic system that can only buy time for its increasingly repessive social, economic and political order.