Big Table Fantasies
Broadly speaking, the serious contenders for the Democratic nomination are offering similar policy proposals - the dispute over health care mandates notwithstanding. But there are large differences among the candidates in their beliefs about what it will take to turn a progressive agenda into reality.
At one extreme, Barack Obama insists that the problem with America is that our politics are so "bitter and partisan," and insists that he can get things done by ushering in a "different kind of politics."
At the opposite extreme, John Edwards blames the power of the wealthy and corporate interests for our problems, and says, in effect, that America needs another F.D.R. - a polarizing figure, the object of much hatred from the right, who nonetheless succeeded in making big changes.
Over the last few days Mr. Obama and Mr. Edwards have been conducting a long-range argument over health care that gets right to this issue. And I have to say that Mr. Obama comes off looking, well, naíve.
The argument began during the Democratic debate, when the moderator - Carolyn Washburn, the editor of The Des Moines Register - suggested that Mr. Edwards shouldn't be so harsh on the wealthy and special interests, because "the same groups are often responsible for getting things done in Washington."
Mr. Edwards replied, "Some people argue that we're going to sit at a table with these people and they're going to voluntarily give their power away. I think it is a complete fantasy; it will never happen."
This was pretty clearly a swipe at Mr. Obama, who has repeatedly said that health reform should be negotiated at a "big table" that would include insurance companies and drug companies.
On Saturday Mr. Obama responded, this time criticizing Mr. Edwards by name. He declared that "We want to reduce the power of drug companies and insurance companies and so forth, but the notion that they will have no say-so at all in anything is just not realistic."
Hmm. Do Obama supporters who celebrate his hoped-for ability to bring us together realize that "us" includes the insurance and drug lobbies?
O.K., more seriously, it's actually Mr. Obama who's being unrealistic here, believing that the insurance and drug industries - which are, in large part, the cause of our health care problems - will be willing to play a constructive role in health reform. The fact is that there's no way to reduce the gross wastefulness of our health system without also reducing the profits of the industries that generate the waste.
As a result, drug and insurance companies - backed by the conservative movement as a whole - will be implacably opposed to any significant reforms. And what would Mr. Obama do then? "I'll get on television and say Harry and Louise are lying," he says. I'm sure the lobbyists are terrified.
As health care goes, so goes the rest of the progressive agenda. Anyone who thinks that the next president can achieve real change without bitter confrontation is living in a fantasy world.
Which brings me to a big worry about Mr. Obama: in an important sense, he has in effect become the anti-change candidate.
There's a strong populist tide running in America right now. For example, a recent Democracy Corps survey of voter discontent found that the most commonly chosen phrase explaining what's wrong with the country was "Big businesses get whatever they want in Washington."
And there's every reason to believe that the Democrats can win big next year if they run with that populist tide. The latest evidence came from focus groups run by both Fox News and CNN during last week's Democratic debate: both declared Mr. Edwards the clear winner.
But the news media recoil from populist appeals. The Des Moines Register, which endorsed Mr. Edwards in 2004, rejected him this time on the grounds that his "harsh anti-corporate rhetoric would make it difficult to work with the business community to forge change."
And while The Register endorsed Hillary Clinton, the prime beneficiary of media distaste for populism has clearly been Mr. Obama, with his message of reconciliation. According to a recent survey by the Project for Excellence in Journalism, Mr. Obama's coverage has been far more favorable than that of any other candidate.
So what happens if Mr. Obama is the nominee?
He will probably win - but not as big as a candidate who ran on a more populist platform. Let's be blunt: pundits who say that what voters really want is a candidate who makes them feel good, that they want an end to harsh partisanship, are projecting their own desires onto the public.
And nothing Mr. Obama has said suggests that he appreciates the bitterness of the battles he will have to fight if he does become president, and tries to get anything done.
Paul Krugman is Professor of Economics at Princeton University and a regular New York Times columnist. His most recent book is The Conscience of a Liberal.
Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company
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76 Comments so far
Show AllRE: Rebel Farmer December 17th, 2007 3:39 pm
I understand you completely, Rebel. It's not about 'free' trade; it's about 'fair' trade. It's not about 'universal' health care coverage; it's about 'single-payer' health coverage. It's not about 'pro' life; it's about 'anti' choice.
It's the framing, stupid! It's also intentionally malicious, designed to confuse, and obfuscatorial.
Bottom line, though, is wreaking profits from prophets. Then the juvenile rationale became, "Well everyone's doing it", whereupon the 'slippery slope' became perched on the edge of a chasm making the Grand Canyon look like an insignificant pothole. Right? err, correct? (I now hate to even use that first word because it seems whenever we head that way the majority of world citizens get left...behind). I will use it in this expression, however, because it speaks of truth:
"Where the left is right, and the right is WRONG!"
Edwards is a corporate hack-job/hedge fund warrior who voted for the war that continues to kill millions of Iraqis and our soldiers. You are naive to think the same John Edwards who bought hard into the triangulation of the Clintons and voted for the Iraq war is going to change anything other than his tax bracket. What experience does he have in elected office? What experience does Hillary have? Obama has been working to reform government on issues from transparency to instant runoff voting since 1996. Get real.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Funding_Accountability_and_Transparency_Act_of_2006
"Notable supporters [of IRV] include Republican U.S. Senator John McCain, Democratic Senator Barack Obama ([9]),2004 Democratic presidential primary election candidates Howard Dean and Dennis Kucinich, and consumer advocate Ralph Nader. The system is favored by the United States Green Party and the United States Libertarian Party, as a solution to the "spoiler" effect third-party sympathizers suffer from under plurality voting (i.e., voters are forced to vote tactically to defeat the candidate they most dislike, rather than for their own preferred candidate)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_and_use_of_instant-runoff_voting
"Obama criticizes Edwards' record"
By Mike Glover
Associated Press
December 22, 2007
Opening his latest presidential campaign swing through Iowa, Democrat Barack Obama singled out rival John Edwards for criticism, arguing that the former North Carolina senator doesn't have a track record to back up the sharply populist themes he sounds on the campaign trail.
"I've got a track record," said Obama. "I don't just talk the talk, I walk the walk. John does not have the same track record."
The Illinois senator and his aides also singled out a new television campaign they said is being launched on Edwards' behalf, accusing him of hypocrisy.
"John said yesterday, he didn't believe in these 527s, those are these independent groups that raise money with no disclosure, nobody knows who is giving them, he said I don't believe in them," said Obama. "We found out today there's a group buying three-quarters of a million dollars worth of television and the individual running the group used to be John Edwards' campaign manager."
Obama used the occasion to suggest that Edwards is guilty of hypocrisy.
"You can't say yesterday, you don't believe in it and today three-quarters of a million dollars is being spent for you," said Obama. "You can't just talk the talk. Everybody talks change, but how did they act when it was not convenient, when it's hard."
Campaign aides distributed to reporters a list of television ad buys in six markets covering Iowa totaling $796,610 that were purchased by the Alliance for a New America, which they described a pro-Edwards group. Focusing on Edwards could signal that Obama views him as a greater threat than previously perceived...
Edwards is the electable least of the evils. His "dang owners" coal miner populism will appeal to those ambitious enough to get off the couch after an 11 hour day of making s*it wages and vote. Its up to those of us who have the time and resources (e.g. haven't been totally screwed by the Bush economy yet) to make sure we get our smug butts out there and flood the ballot boxes to make the same tide lift all boats. Its time for Democrats to cast off our elitist pretenses, hoping we can "get us an insider in Washington" to do our business. The current Pelosi-Reid disaster and the corporatization of Hillary should be lessons to any democrat who thinks we can negotiate with the devious, cyncial, mean-spirited, lying, money grubbing, power hungry, sociopathically arrogant Republican business crowd. That we will win is a given - this election, we actually get to choose which Democrat is going to be President. So make it count, dammit. Don't settle for Obama or Clinton.
Edwards is sold out and you know it.
If you don't like Bill Moyers or Ron Walters, Nader has good things to say about Edwards but not Obama:
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Nader_likes_Kucinich_thinks_Edwards_looks_1218.html
No one is perfect, and I am not all that pleased with his policy and positions on the Middle East:
http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idCategory=34&idsub=186&id=13189&t=John+Edwards'+foreign+policy
But on balance, Edwards is still the best change candidate for this country right now.
And just say nope to mixing hope with dope Obama.
Paul Street is the wrong person to quote to me if you are trying to prove your sanity. Street is entitled to his whacked out opinion, but it is whacked out.
Example 1: "Dealing with Serbia in the 1990s cemented the neocon-neolib entente. By Sept. 11, 2001, these two groups had converged as a single ideological family. They agreed that American nationalism was best expressed in world affairs as a progressive imperialism. The rallying call for armed action would be promoting human rights and democratic government among peoples who resisted American hegemony." – Paul Street http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?%20SectionID=72&ItemID=12928
Who elected Musharraf and the Taliban to run Afghanistan and Pakistan? Of course any political grouping with enough guns and minimal investments in twentieth century modernity, (The Taliban outlawed music, girls schools, and required women to wear head-to-toe coverings among other things like chopping people's hands off for stealing), is going to oppose them when they try to just take power with the barrel of a gun and enforce an archaic and ethnically-exclusive form of Islam on everybody who is Afghan.
Who elected Milosevic to run Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo, and Bosnia? FYI, the Green Party of Germany voted to authorize Germany to participate in NATO operations in Kosovo in 1999. Kosovo is 90% Albanian. Milosevic was responsible for genocide in Kosovo and Bosnia and today there is peace in those nations because of NATO intervention. Intervention through NATO in Southeastern Europe has brought increased stability to not just the former republics of Yugoslavia, but to the entire region which was impacted by emigration out of the conflict zones. Is ending genocide in the Balkans more important than ending genocide somewhere else? No. Was it more practical to intervene in the Balkans in the 1990s than in Iraq in 2003-2009(dread :( ) given the assets of the states participating in the coalition, our relations with states neighboring the conflict zone, and the logistical-space of the area in which American soliders would operate? Yes.
Furthermore, one American politician's hypocrisy does not make everyone who does believe in human rights and democratic government as rationales for using military force in their turn hypocrites.
Example 2: "[Obama] praises the architects of the Cold War for checking the Soviet Union's nefarious designs "to spread [in Obama's words] its totalitarian brand of communism."- Paul Street
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?%20SectionID=72&ItemID=12928
Obama's words? Give me a break. They were also Trotksy's words. The fact that "the USSR modeled the possibility of independent national development outside the parameters of U.S.-led world-capitalist supervision" does not dismiss the fascism that made it possible. Hitler also modeled a possibility of independent development outside the parameters of British-led world-capitalist development or that the fascism of Mobutuism 'modeled a possibility of independent development outside the parameters of US-led world-capitalist development'. There is nothing intrinsic to that outsider status that is inherently good.
"The so-called friends of the Soviet Union (left democrats, pacifists, Brandlerites, and the like) repeat the argument of the Comintern functionaries that the struggle against the Stalinist bureaucracy, i.e., first of all criticism of its false policies, "helps the counter-revolution." This is the standpoint of the political lackeys of the bureaucracy, but never that of revolutionists. The Soviet Union both internally and externally can be defended only by means of a correct policy. All other considerations are either secondary or simply lying phrases.
The present CPSU is not a party but an apparatus of domination in the hands of an uncontrolled bureaucracy. Within the framework of the CPSU and outside of it takes place the grouping of the scattered elements of the two basic parties: the proletarian and the Thermidorean-Bonapartist. Rising above both of them, the centrist bureaucracy wages a war of annihilation against the Bolshevik-Leninists. While coming into sharp clashes from time to time with their Thermidorean half-allies, the Stalinists, nevertheless, clear the road for the latter by crushing, strangling, and corrupting the Bolshevik Party."
"Only the creation of the Marxist International, completely independent of the Stalinist bureaucracy and counterposed politically to it, can save the USSR from collapse by binding its destiny with the destiny of the world proletarian revolution."- Leon Trotsky
http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/germany/1933/330715.htm
And Bill Moyers, with all due respect, decides what in this country? Your cynicism and his cynicism is not refreshing and is exactly why I am not voting for Edwards or the Clintons.
VOTE OBAMA. CHANGE THE WORLD.
Can you really be a middle class country without some reasonable level of income equality?
Here's a blunt answer:
Every developed country that is an advanced industrial democracy in the world with a genuine middle class has a GINI Index of inequality between 0.25 and 0.35 EXCEPT the US ---- which at 0.47 and rising fast in inequality is matched only by South American 'banana republics', African 'dictatorships', and Middle Eastern oily royal families and theocracies!!
dougnwagner:
Regarding the hedge fund issue, Edwards' response is here:
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/5/8/133926.shtml
If you think Krugman hates Obama, you really should read Paul Street who calls Obama a "corporate-imperial faux progressive":
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=90&ItemID=14481
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=90&ItemID=14448
I believe in you are defined by the company you keep. Who has campaigned for Edwards? Jackson Browne, Bonnie Raitt and Tim Robbins. Of course Obama's got that ultra-liberal Oprah. (Sorry can't help myself).
And then there is Ron Walters, someone intimately involved with the two Jesse Jackson campaigns in the 80's interviewed by Bill Moyers on Public TV last week: When ask about Obama's chances, he responded, "When you look at the history of this country of racism and race in particular there is a huge, huge doubt that he (Obama) will eventually become president of the United States."
Finally, I personally am not going to vote for a woman just because she is a woman or a black just because he is black. I believe we need a fighter in the White House. Just like Nader fought for everything he got, we need what Edwards stands for in the election of 2008.
Is this the same 'corporate crusading' John Edwards who invested in the hedge fund robbing people in New Orleans? The same Hillary and John Edwards who voted for the war that continues to kill American soliders and Iraqis?
Get Real. Only Obama and Kucinich had the nerve to oppose the war. They're the only ones who have the nerve to stand up to corporate interests. If John Edwards could match his record to his actions his anti-corporate rhetoric might have persuaded me. But realistically, I would rather have Obama at the bargaining table because bargaining actually requires principles plus intelligence. People who voted for this war to 'save' their political careers have what kind of intelligence? What kind of principles? Give me a break. Pre-negotiation bluster counts for shit in the real-world. What choices you have made in the past is a better indication than the latest campaign rhetoric. That's why Obama has had success in legislative office for over 10 years: principles plus intelligence.
How much legislative experience do Hillary and Edwards have? Less than that. Give me a break. I don't want eitehr of them negotiating with legislators. Neither one took a principled stance on the war. They are not going to take a principled stance on healthcare. The answer to healthcare is to eat healthily and exercise and not mandating the working poor to pay more of their income to health insurance corporations to solve factory farming, a bad diet, and an unhealthy lifestyle.
The bigger question is why does Paul Krugman hate Obama? Every article.
Lets face it, this country needs a leader who does bring us together, and who opposed this war from the beginning- the single biggest test of judgment, principle, and intelligence of these presidential candidates. VOTE OBAMA. CHANGE THE WORLD.
Here's some cold hard reality. Do you really believe the bluster of people who buckle at the knees?
Question: On the Joint Resolution (H.J.Res. 114 ) Vote Date: October 11, 2002, 12:50 AM Required For Majority: 1/2 Measure Number: H.J.Res. 114 Measure Title: A joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
YEAs ---77 Allard (R-CO) Allen (R-VA) Baucus (D-MT) Bayh (D-IN) Bennett (R-UT) Biden (D-DE) Bond (R-MO) Breaux (D-LA) Brownback (R-KS) Bunning (R-KY) Burns (R-MT) Campbell (R-CO) Cantwell (D-WA) Carnahan (D-MO) Carper (D-DE) Cleland (D-GA) Clinton (D-NY) Cochran (R-MS) Collins (R-ME) Craig (R-ID) Crapo (R-ID) Daschle (D-SD) DeWine (R-OH) Dodd (D-CT) Domenici (R-NM) Dorgan (D-ND) Edwards (D-NC) Ensign (R-NV) Enzi (R-WY) Feinstein (D-CA) Fitzgerald (R-IL) Frist (R-TN) Gramm (R-TX) Grassley (R-IA) Gregg (R-NH) Hagel (R-NE) Harkin (D-IA) Hatch (R-UT) Helms (R-NC) Hollings (D-SC) Hutchinson (R-AR) Hutchison (R-TX) Inhofe (R-OK) Johnson (D-SD) Kerry (D-MA) Kohl (D-WI) Kyl (R-AZ) Landrieu (D-LA) Lieberman (D-CT) Lincoln (D-AR) Lott (R-MS) Lugar (R-IN) McCain (R-AZ) McConnell (R-KY) Miller (D-GA) Murkowski (R-AK) Nelson (D-FL) Nelson (D-NE) Nickles (R-OK) Reid (D-NV) Roberts (R-KS) Rockefeller (D-WV) Santorum (R-PA) Schumer (D-NY) Sessions (R-AL) Shelby (R-AL) Smith (R-NH) Smith (R-OR) Snowe (R-ME) Specter (R-PA) Stevens (R-AK) Thomas (R-WY) Thompson (R-TN) Thurmond (R-SC) Torricelli (D-NJ) Voinovich (R-OH) Warner (R-VA)
NAYs ---23 Akaka (D-HI) Bingaman (D-NM) Boxer (D-CA) Byrd (D-WV) Chafee (R-RI) Conrad (D-ND) Corzine (D-NJ) Dayton (D-MN) Durbin (D-IL) Feingold (D-WI) Graham (D-FL) Inouye (D-HI) Jeffords (I-VT) Kennedy (D-MA) Leahy (D-VT) Levin (D-MI) Mikulski (D-MD) Murray (D-WA) Reed (D-RI) Sarbanes (D-MD) Stabenow (D-MI) Wellstone (D-MN) Wyden (D-OR)
I wonder what would happen if all the people who said, I would vote for Kucinich but he can't win so, I'll just follow whomever the corporate party line puts up, said No! No! No, I'm voting for Dennis because he says the things I really believe in and feel are important, to me, for America and the world. I further wonder, with all the electronic voting machines, can we write in a candidate of our choice whom ever that might be?
And, to continue my naiveity, I wonder if in my life this country will ever see a third, fourth, and fifth party, thus expanding choices and possibilities that we the people are more truly represented? Just because it is the way it has been being done doesn't make it right or the only possibilities....at least not for we the naive dreamers of this world. How about the rest of us?
nodozejoze -
I have repeatedly responded to the substance of your posts, and you have not responded to the substance of mine. That's a sure sign that you're wrong, you know.
Basically, you are pushing a European model, a multiparty system in which the parties have clearly defined and articulated ideologies and practical goals, which is consistent with European political structures but inconsistent with the US Constitution and electoral laws. It doesn't work here (been tried). We have a two-party system, and that is okay; the two-party system is not the reason for our backward, corporate-dominated politics.
For another example, which shining example of progressive democracy has the most multiparty-friendly electoral structure in the world (nationwide proportional representation) and hence one of the most vibrant political cultures in the world with many parties and lots of popular participation in political debates? Israel.
BTW, PDA did not exist when Clinton was president.
JBPM -
Your "counterexamples" illustrate my point. The only opening in the two-party system occurred at the time of the Civil War. The Populist Party was the last big third party, way bigger than the Greens are today (or ever will be) and, as you note, it failed. You say the Democrats "took on many Populist Party platforms." Excuse me, but how do you know the Democrats wouldn't have adopted those same issues anyway, particularly if the same people who organized the Populist Party had been pushing those issues within the Democratic Party?
One thing that has changed since a century ago is that the two-party system has become completely formalized and institutionalized. In the 1890s, party bosses could really lock you out. Today, if you win the primary, you get the nomination, and if you win office, you will be able to replace the party bosses.
Finally, you talk about IRV and PR. IRV will not break the two-party system, it will just encourage more people to waste more time and money on little pretend parties that will still lose because it will still be winner-take-all.
PR would create a multiparty system, and I'd be all for it, if there were any chance whatsoever that it could be achieved. In city council elections, maybe. But PR is incompatible with our national Constitution, and not only is that impossible for us to change, but it would be extremely dangerous if the question could even be opened.
If there were a compelling need to move to PR, because no progress was possible through the two-party system, maybe it would be justified to bet everything on a constitutional rewrite. But that is not the case. People just need to get out of this idiotic habit of thinking in terms of identification with the party.
Voting Democrat and working within the Democratic Party does not mean you are responsible for everything Bill or Hillary Clinton does. In a two-party system, the party is just a giant coalition of half the electorate. It's not going to represent your personal identity or your detailed philosophy or ideology or everything you want done. That's what sub-party organizations are for.
secretarybird pointed out "It seems to me the drug companies in the USA have already been stuffed with gold, and your problem is how to get them to give some of it up."
Kinda brings to mind the corporate version of the golden rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules."
The way you get them to give some of it up is to tax it. Given the state of the Federal Government's finances, I think you can make the case that a tax adjustment is in order.
For that to happen, however, we need to hold fair elections here. This will not happen until some critical changes are made to the electoral system, starting with the elimination of all machinery that does not produce a voter-verified, indelible ballot that is used as the source for vote tallies, with a certain percentage of random hand-counts serving to audit any automated vote-tallying equipment being used.
This quickly beomes a circular requirement. Those elected by the current equipment have absolutely no motivation to change it, in some cases because the outcome matched the will of the voters, and in other cases because it didn't. Get the electoral system right, or kiss the country you loved and cared about good-bye.
All cultures rise and fall. The great cultures fall not by conquest but because of the rot within. This is where we are in America today. Our walls are freshly painted and the decorations are snazzy, but the termites have been chewing away at the studs for a while now. And quite frankly, the demolition industry stands to make a ton of money when the house comes down, and it seems that the rest of us would really rather take another turn at the punchbowl than think about the termites.
It won't be long now...
Nader 2000 said, "You can do that as a third party, too, but in that case you will always just lose at election time and you will not have any influence on the actual politicians and policy."
Third parties had no influence on actual politicians and policy?
-- National Union Party, a coalition of pro-Lincoln Republicans and Northern Democrats, elects the Lincoln/Johnson ticket in 1864.
-- Greenback-Labor Party, 1874-1884, elected around 20 US Congressmen, supported income tax, women's suffrage, and the 8-hour work day
-- Populist Party received 10% of popular votes in 1892 election, Democrats took on many Populist Party platforms for the 1896 election. Call for direct election of Senators became the law of the land as the 17th Amendment in 1913.
Just a few historical counterexamples to show that voting for third parties isn't necessarily a wasted voted. That's just one more meme the Democrats like to use to keep people voting against their own interests. I'm with nodozejoze on this one. Edwards is probably the best thing the Democrats have (unlike nodozejoze, I might vote for him in the next election). Sorry to Kucinich folks, but he lost all credibility with me in 2004 when he capitulated without a whimper to the Kerry folks at the Democratic National Convention; if he doesn't do the same this time, donuts are on me. But if you really want to get the system you want, you have to vote for those who want that system.
One thing we can all work to do before and after this not-as-important-as-we-all-like-to-believe national election is to work on making Instant Runoff Voting and Proportional Representation realities, so that we can break the stranglehold of the two parties.
Its too early for me to be thinking! But here goes.This debate was rigged. They ALL have have. All of you who love to trash Texas (yeah, the shrub has a house here, but I bet he moves back east when this is all over, if it ever ends)( ITS GW FROM KENEBUNKPORT MAINE!) should be having a feild day with this crap right out of the heartland. While I'm at it, lets piss on florida, the state that really gave us gw. KUCINICH is the only answer and I'll send money and support to the end. After that, NO MORE DEM CRAP FOR ME. America will get the prez we deserve. We will get the history we deserve. Too bad. And you cant really call these things debates, they are more like question and dodge the answer time. Screw Hillary, Obama, and Edwards. They don't even come close to what we we need. Lets give all the wannabes and Kucinich time to stand side by side,on the same stage,and give them 15 minoutes of uninterrupted time to tell us why they should lead this country. Kucinich would make them all look and sound silly. Thats why that would never happen. Check out Steve LENDMANS article in Counterpunch yesterday titled POLICE STATE AMERICA. http://counterpunch.com/lendman12172007.html . Get ready for the jackboots. Thanks for letting me rant. And I'm sure there are good people still left in Iowa and Florida, cause I know there is a few left in Texas as well. We are all to blame. Shame on us. Texrey
If a repug should win the presidency - imagine the horrors in store. There is one big nightmare seldom mentioned - the Supreme Court will be poisoned for a very long time - I don't remember a Dem. mentioning this. Let's get real- the naive notions that Hillary or Obama will win may lead us to disaster. Edwards is the realistic hope.
Paul, you are of course right. The corporatist Empire that pushed our GINI coefficient to the level of Middle Eastern oil theocracies and African dictatorships is not about to help lower it by half to the level of all peer Western developed countries.
John Edwards appeared on no less than three Sunday talk shows, and repeated the same seemingly revolutionary line:
"These powerful corporate interests are not simply going to give away their power by negotiating with them".
The Edwards statement comes close to Raul Julia's similar answer to Robert Redford in the film "Havana" about why they had to actually fight the corporatist Batista regime, when he replied:
"They will not leave, by asking NICELY".
The impression, of course, that Edwards wishes to make to the rapidly increasing number of economically disgruntled voters in 2008 is the same that 'Rebel Al' Gore briefly mouthed in the summer of 2000, when he appeared to come out of the mountains in virtual fatigues and a Castro beard and talked about "fighting for you, against the big business interests."
The big question will be whether Edwards' campaign managers will talk him out of this (as Gore's did) --- particularly with DNC pressure if Edwards were to actually win Iowa.
For me, the Edwards rhetoric will only ring true if he starts openly talking about the global corporatist Empire hiding behind the facade of 'Vichy America' --- and identifying it as the common cause of foreign wars, domestic economic oppression, and extra-Constitutional tyranny.
BTW, Paul, your support of populism and concern with inequality clearly irked your favorite ex-FED chairman in his own Sunday morning cameo appearance. He actually appeared to grimace when George S. mentioned your name.
I wonder why do so many vote in primaries like it was a general election. Who cares whether a candidate is "serious" or not? If they became the nominee then they would automatically be serious!
The general election is the time for compromising. The primaries are the time for idealism. Vote with your heart!
Kucinich is the authentic progressive candidate. Edwards is the next best thing but, like many, I suspect it is mostly campaign rhetoric that will mostly be forgotten post election. Obama is a great motivational speaker but that's really all he's got to offer.
I will vote for Dennis Kucinich in the general election. I hope the Democrats are listening. And, if they're not, I hope they lose. And, I will do the smae thing election after election until they do listen.
Seems to me progressives did try to work within the Democratic Party after Bush's pot-9/11 psychotic agenda became clear.
We were thoroughly ignored. Dismissed as 'soft on terror', 'traitors', 'communists', etc. We were right all along on just about every point.
That's still not acknowledged because we're still marginalized.
Face it. Progressives are disgusted with the Democratic Party and for good reason. What makes it the most frustrating is that, when charged rhetoric is removed, the majority of Americans believe in progressive ideals.
Corporate whores have taken over the republic and have tried to use religion to shrink wrap the electorate.
...and have had far more success than I would ever have thought possible 10 years ago.
Krugman is right. Edwards is right. Kucinich and Gravel are right. Paul makes a few good points also... but I think he's a bit of a whack job.
A final note to kool-aid drinkers:
It was Bill Clinton who removed from the Democratic Party platform, one of the most progressive elements in that insipid document: universal health care.
What the PDA and other so-called progressive Democrats lamented at the time, was that the Party had been taken over by a conservative cabal that included the Clinton-Gore-Leberman wing of the Party (long before he became St. Gore). What they want you all to ignore (another form of kool-aid) is that for over 40 years, during times of unprecedented power and domination in US politics, when the Dems had the White House AND both Houses of Congress, when "progressives" ran everything, they did nothing. Zilch. Nada. Absolutely nothing to give USAmericans universal health care.
Or take another example. Labor laws. When the Dems had their most recent "progressive" President, with both Houses dominated by them, during the Johnson years, they NEVER repealed Taft-Hartley. Never. Didn´t even try.
You can´t get the system you want by voting for people who don´t want that system.
I learned this in the 60´s and 70´s and I too still felt duped into giving a Dem my vote in 1992. Before that I hadn´t since 1980. I changed and it´s been a liberating feeling. And history has proved me right in rejecting the Dems. In the early 1980´s I left the States to live in Japan and saw a different way. Since 2001 I have lived in Europe. There IS a better way and USAmericans have at least as much guts and gumption to do what has been done elsewhere around the globe.
But that kool-aid keeps getting passed around and the "Nader2000"´s of the world keep saying, "No, drink it, and all will get better...if you just BELIEVE..."
That might work for Tinkerbell, but not for the real world.
Keep drinking that kool aid, "Nader2000".
You keep saying "maybe"...Well, maybe if a bird had a radio in it´s ass there´d be music in the air...
Look, all the harping about rallying progressives into the Dems is a rally for kool-aid addicted dupes to continue down the same slippery slope into oblivion.
The Dems will not and do not want what progressives want.
They will always co-opt the message and weaken it to solidify the two party duopoly they and the Reps share (with extensive corporate backing). When the people opt out, vote for other parties, then they will begin to get new ideas into public discourse. When people see that there are other, more truly democratic ways to elect representatives, for example, like proportional representation (which the Dems do not want)they will force adoption of such.
But you can´t get the system you want by voting for people who don´t want that system.
That´s kool-aid talking.
In Europe people tried the kool-aid and it gave them two world wars. After that, they sickened of the status quo and decided that a more socially responsive, democratically socialist society would maximize the good. In a world of humans, it is not Utopia:
But with 4-6 weeks paid vacation per year, universal health care available to all, paid maternity and paternity leave, fully funded and exemplary schools, free higher education, longer lives, lower infant mortality rates, less corporate intrusion into the food chain (collectively Europe still opposes GMO foods), the average European country, which has a multi-party democracy in place, is alot better off than the US.
Once you stop drinking that Democratic Party kool-aid.
PROVOICE -- Perhaps you dismissed my comments as irrelevant to current events, and clearly your focus is as you say only "the damage the current regime has done over the past decade or so"
Let me attempt to weave together the bigger picture to show how little of this Titanic iceberg we yet really see.
1. the creation of the Fed Reserve ~ 1913, the end of USA citizen's representation through votes, the bankers could trump any and everything from the three branches. Still true 95 years later, only more so.
2. the '30s new deal wouldn't have been allowed to happen if what I described above with Nazi attempted coup in 1933 has been successful
3. the most recent 40 years, starting big time with Nixon (had started already with Johnson 5 yr before; death of JFK), is all about dismantling the egalitarian new deal "mistake". It took nearly 50 yr for the banker's recovery from reversals of 1934.
4. Everything since 1970 is about systematically undoing the 'new deal' promises of re-distributing the wealth from the rich to the entire country.
5. 75 years after failing to take over the USA, the Nazis are well poised with the grandson of the previous coup's leaders already at the helm in DC. Stealing an election is so much cleaner than assassination, don't you think?
6. Going back a decade is chump "change" for those wanting the roaring 20s all over again, them robber barons are BACK!
7. If nothing else is obvious, the fascist beast is very experienced, persistent, and thoroughly corrupting -- and it's strength cannot be accurately estimated
Ironically, as someone recently pointed out, the major reason for our initial American Revolution was equivalent to item 1, where the Crown rejected the colonies use of their own money, and required the payment of usury and use of the English central bank. For our founding fathers, them bankers were cause to fight the most powerful gov't of that time.
Really not much has changed, we're now just the new minutemen cleaning up (again) the insidious banker's cancer that has eaten the heart out of our once proud democracy.
One if we see, two if they land on us.
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »
Krugman, what a duped schlep. Thinks FDR made big changes... Financial dominance of the spawning total dependence order... A man of the then decidedly racist party... FDR... Who better for the hand outs to flow forth from than a social element typically substrated to begging, the infirm. What a clever facade on the US federal reality that was Hoovers federal police monitoring of legislators sexual secrets. I wonder how sexually available people serviced by bureaucracy were in that day. Doubtless the politicians seeming chivalrous wins points with the Betty's. Hoover acting as the blackmailer in chief at the FBI (fed) while rolls in chair FDR engineers the federal empire to look like a benign nanny volunteering in a soup kitchen.
Creeping Egalitarian Seeming Power Consolidating Hand Out for the Snatch Back Facilitated by Dumbing Down Generations to Beg Happy that You're not a Slave, FDR.
Frankly I'm quite underwhelmed by the entire gaggle of candidates... Not ONE of them seems to have any real touch on the huge problems that lie directly in our road ahead.
First we have to UNDO most of the damage the current regime has done over the past decade or so... and yes I'm including some of the Clinton years, because their BS machines poured out tons of the stuff during the Ken Starr fiasco.
We have to re-establish trust in the American people and government worldwide... we have to put some balance in the economic opportunity for the people... so that even the poor can stand a chance of gaining ground, not just the ultra-wealthy... and we have to protect our ports and borders, while at the same time putting some common sense into the balance of trade with other nations.
Our educational system needs protection from overly-litigious lawyers... public school teachers need to be allowed to discipline unruly students and teach, not just pass out tests.... and our medical, drug and energy industries need some serious oversight to prevent them from raping the population any more than they already have in recent years.
I don't see ANYONE talking seriously about any of these issues.
For heavens' sake, Nader2000. Will you stop blaming Nader for the Democratic party turning into a corporate whore? Be sensible. Follow the money. Nader was warning us what was happening before he ran for president.
RichM wrote:
> "When the media barred Kucinich & Gravel from the debates, did the DNC lodge any formal protest..."
I think you are shooting at straw men here. I think I have made it clear enough that I do not claim the DNC at present is controlled by progressive forces. My point is that if more progressives, particularly if organized as a body through PDA or another non-party organization, got more involved in Democratic Party politics, maybe we would have more people on the inside and more influence in the DNC, and then maybe it would be more likely for the DNC to protest the exclusion of progressive voices like Kucinich. Then again, maybe more progressives should have howled at this anyway, independent of the DNC, and should support Kucinich.
PDA members voted to support Kucinich as a first choice. I'll vote for Kucinich. Then again, it seems pretty clear at this point that Dennis isn't going to be the nominee. There aren't enough progressives out there working to mobilize voters for Kucinich. Too many of them are too pissed off and want to play revolutionary or dream of a Green Party or a Ralph Party. Too bad. So I'll take my second choice, Obama. That's how it works.
> "the Dem Party & the other candidates didn't so much as lift a finger to protect the rights of Kucinich & Gravel to be heard"
That's pretty ironic, coming from a Green/Nader supporter. Why is one candidate responsible for the campaign of another?
> "How do you reconcile this behavior, with what one would expect from a party in which progressives really had a fair chance to gain influence?"
NOBODY GIVES ANYONE A FAIR CHANCE IN POLITICS. You have to WIN YOUR OWN VICTORIES. The point is, you get a fair chance AT THE BALLOT BOX because THAT'S THE LAW. If you WIN you will be able to take over the party. If you lose, they don't have to listen to you. That's how it works.
> "Also, since your idea is basically that progressives just "work THROUGH the Democratic Party….win the primary, then win the general election" — why do you suppose such an effort has never succeeded?
Very simple. It has worked. And the Democratic Party has been the vehicle for progressive change. However, since the 1970s the country has slid backwards, and part of that is the retreat of the 1960s progressive idealists from electoral politics, thanks in part to drugs, in part to radical chic, in part to the pied pipers of Nader, the Greens and various Reds. Nader and the Greens, in particular, have been a huge drain of energies that could have gone into reinvigorating the progressive wing and progressive influence in the Democratic Party. It hasn't worked in the past 20 years because it hasn't been tried in the past 20 years. Sure, some few people tried. But not enough.
> "The work-within-the-Dems approach has been tried many times before, without appreciable success. In what way do you imagine what you're saying is any different than what all the previous failures have said?"
If you seriously imagine that there is even one-fifth of the mobilizable, organizable progressive energy out there that would be needed to create a third party and start winning national elections, and if that energy were directed into progressive action within, upon, and through the Democratic Party, it could not fail to have a substantial impact and bring real gains, whereas channeled into a third party, it would be piss in the wind.
Finally, you argue that conservative forces within the Democratic Party worked against George McGovern in 1972. I'm shocked, shocked! So what, if McGovern had run as a Socialist he would have been elected? This is so stupid.
Kucinich is the only progressive. No retreat, no surrender.
Interesting discussion.
All I have to add is that, as I remember, Pelosi wanted Murtha but got called out on that one. Don't exactly know what that means. All I know is that Murtha never saw a military contract he didn't like.
About the DLC influence in the primaries, I'm totally disgusted. We have two very qualified contenders for the Dimm nomination to run against Smith. But the DLC has decided that Oregonians are too stupid to pick the "right" canfidate in the primary. They have already decided who is going to win and who is going to get money in the primary and in the election. All I can say is that the DLC has proven to me that they don't give a s**t about what I think or what I want. They are picking the candidates based on prioritiesthat have nothing to do with the citizen voters. I don't count. All I'm good for is to make sure that Smith doesn't win. Well, they have another think coming. I hope that the canidate that I want will run as an independent. Even if that splits the vote and the Repug wins, at least my vote counted.
Go Cindy!!!! Set the standard and show the bastards that we want true representation! There is only one party now - no matter what letter they have behind their name. It's called a corporatocracy that has led to a fascist government.
Okay, now I'm pissed. No one better ever tell me to vote for some corporate as*hole because of a letter behind their name. I'm done with that. Period.
"WASHINGTON, DC - December 17 --
"Himmelstein and Woolhandler are professors of medicine at Harvard University and the co-founders of Physicians for a National Health Program. They just had an oped in the New York Times in which they write: 'In 1971, President Nixon sought to forestall single-payer national health insurance by proposing an alternative. He wanted to combine a mandate, which would require that employers cover their workers, with a Medicaid-like program for poor families, which all Americans would be able to join by paying sliding-scale premiums based on their income.
'Nixon's plan, though never passed, refuses to stay dead. Now Hillary Clinton, John Edwards and Barack Obama all propose Nixon-like reforms. Their plans resemble measures that were passed and then failed in several states over the past two decades.' "
This is in CD Newswire today. It doesn't square with Krugman's description of Edwards at all. Any clue?
REBEL FARMER -- You're so correct that "America needs another F.D.R", which is well worth considering also in light of:
COMarc's -- comment that "No one elected as President could do much without Congressional support."
Let's replay the relevant history of those equally challenging days, for many of the same reasons:
• Following on the heals of economic disaster and incompetent leadership, and despondent citizens demanding massive changes.
• Hidden deals of Congressional leaderships (i.e. bankers) to not hang as traitors those responsible for the failed coup, per The McCormack-Dickstein Committee (in 1934).
• (coupled with) Smedley Butler's (dbl Cong Medal Honor) hugely respected and credible proof of Prescott Bush's and Geo. Herbert Walker's direct complicity in attempts to assassinate FDR.
Well one out of three is almost than half way there.
Does our illustrious military have a suitably honorable general with the insider scoop, along with a few battalions of constitutionally inspired Marines, to leverage a new NEW DEAL?
Americans today are ~ 99.44% clueless of the 75 year old relevance, and basically superfluous to the massive power plays needed to thwart the current Nazi takeover, unless we can get 10 million of so motivated.
Which is more likely?
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »
24+ members of the progressive caucus out of 233. Actually there are 72 official members, but only about a dozen consistently vote progressive. Most of these members have been around long before the DLC took control of the Democratic party and turned it into a corporate food fest.
Chris Van Hollen might be OK as DCCC Chair. I'm not taking anyone at their word, I want to see results, due to many disappointments. I consider it no accident that Nancy picked Raum Emanuel to keep antiwar candidates from winning 2006 primaries. She had her game plan worked out. And she lied to us about impeachment, among other things.
Nader2000, up until now, progressives have had to fight against the corporate forces and the Democrats (being, after all, one and the same) no matter what label they run under.
Interesting comments! Even more interesting is that, while Krugman has Edwards saying we can't have the powerful lobbies at the planning table, Himmelstein and Woolhandler in their op ed (see today's Newswire "Why Are Clinton, Obama, and Edwards Backing Nixon's Health Plan?") have Edwards inviting them to the table: "Nixon's plan, though never passed, refuses to stay dead. Now Hillary Clinton, John Edwards and Barack Obama all propose Nixon-like reforms. Their plans resemble measures that were passed and then failed in several states over the past two decades."
What's going on?
Nader2000 (9:03 pm) writes about how easy it would be for progressives to "work through" the Democratic Party.
Focusing on just this portion of your argument -- as you know, Kucinich was barred from the last debate, & Gravel has been barred for the last several debates.
When the media barred Kucinich & Gravel from the debates, did the DNC lodge any formal protest, insisting that all Democratic candidates be given a fair chance to be heard? Did any of the other Dem candidates say a single word about this issue? Did any of them say, "I refuse to participate in this debate, unless Kucinich & Gravel are also permitted to participate"?
As we all know, the Dem Party & the other candidates didn't so much as lift a finger to protect the rights of Kucinich & Gravel to be heard. They were all perfectly happy to allow Kucinich & Gravel be treated as "unpersons." // How do you reconcile this behavior, with what one would expect from a party in which progressives really had a fair chance to gain influence?
Also, since your idea is basically that progressives just "work THROUGH the Democratic Party....win the primary, then win the general election" -- why do you suppose such an effort has never succeeded? The work-within-the-Dems approach has been tried many times before, without appreciable success. In what way do you imagine what you're saying is any different than what all the previous failures have said?
Final note: you wrote that in the general election, "They'll (ie, the Party apparatus) help you, or at least not fight against you." Actually, it's fairly well established (see for example accounts by Robert Parry at www.consortiumnews.com, or read his books) that influential sections of the Dem Party establishment consciously worked against McGovern in 1972. Some of these guys actually worked to get McGovern nominated -- only because they thought he'd be the easiest for Nixon to crush.
BeForKids - The DCCC has in at least some few instances acted against progressives and in support of "centrist" candidates. - Cegelis-Duckworth is the only actual example that I've seen mentioned, and that happened under Rahm Emanuel, who no longer heads DCCC. The DCCC is supposed to stay out of choosing winners in primaries, and Dean has pledged that kind of thing won't happen again (we'll see).
The main point is, and you are willfully ignoring it, that sure, the corporate forces, whether acting improperly through the DNC and its organs, or acting independently through PACS, 527s, under the table, through their ownership of the media or otherwise, can pummel, smash and trash you. They can do that when you run in the Democratic primary and they can do that when you run in the general election as a Green.
So, if you can beat them running as a Green, you can beat them running in the Democratic primary. In fact, it is MUCH easier to do the latter. We have more than two dozen members of the Progressive Caucus. We have no Greens.
Yes, it is a battle within the Democratic Party. But that is where the real battle is taking place. You don't win it by going to some other field and pretending to fight.
Nader2000, you're the one drinking koolaid if you think the Democratic party structure isn't preventing progressives from winning primaries. The DCCC is mandated to keep hands off primaries, but they aren't. They are interfering with and torpedoing progressive campaigns. Wake up!
It's true that some people have caught on and are donating directly to progressive candidates, bypassing the party. But it's a David vs Goliath fight, and Goliath has all the ammunition. Why can't you get it through your head that the Democratic party doesn't care about you at all? They don't need your money, they have no intention of passing legislation in your interest. They need your vote, but they make sure you have nowhere else to go and they play on your fear to get that vote. There is no way in Hell you can vote for them and then try to tell them what to do. That just has them laughing all the way to the bank. The only power you have is to refuse them your vote.
RichM, excellent response to Nader2000's fantasy that progressives could "work within" the structure of the Democratic party. You said everything I wanted to say and put it much better than I would have.
Progressives have been trying to work within the party for years and have been getting shafted. Nader2000 is either delusional, ignoring outcomes, or a DLC shill. Which is it, Nader2000? How much longer will you keep coming back for more of the same? I think our country is filled with slow learners.
By the way, in the 2000 "debates" (which of course aren't debates at all), 70% of Americans wanted to hear Nader in the debates. Those ruling America didn't want him in. Guess who won that argument. Oh, I forgot, this is only a pretend democracy.
Ron Paul was rated as voting for liberal values 56% of the time and conservative values 44% of the time. I read his voting record, and it was always completely consistent with his philosophy and from my progressive point of view, it's not all bad. I can understand the excitement he generates. He stands up for want he believes and doesn't back down. He despises corporate control of America, the loss of our civil liberties, NAFTA, the Iraq war. He didn't seek the money pouring in, this has been a bottom up, grassroots endeavor. I would rather see him president than Hillary. I don't agree with his strong state's rights philosophy since so many states are so regressive (including his own Texas), but I can understand his philosophy and his votes show him to have compassion. Before you judge him, check out his record at the following website, it's quite informative. What I like very much about him is he's honest and has integrity. I can understand why Dennis Kucinich is friends with him (I actually have some Republican friends myself). I think a Ron Paul presidency and a progressive Congress would be an interesting experience. Of course, the Democrats would fight tooth and nail to prevent a progressive Congress. Follow the money.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul
RichM wrote:
> "I've heard your theory about the "first-past-the-post, winner-take-all elections" necessarily leading to a 2-party system many times now. Your theory is all form and no substance."
Yes, I know that you've heard the substance over and over, and you haven't responded to it, so I'm not going to bother to try to restate everything right now. Anyway, it's not my "theory." It's common understanding among those with some political experience and sophistication who don't willfully refuse to understand it (because one must not understand in order to rationalize the third-party game with all its personal payoffs).
> "entire institutional structure of the Dem Party, and its whole roster of elected officials, consultants, strategists, donors, apparatchiks, & media voices, as well as its own history & internal party culture — this entire structure has been set up, and honed for decades, to function as an impregnable barrier against any possibility of progressives"
And the thing is, you can sweep that all away by just getting in and winning elections.
First you win the primary. They can't stop you from doing that, at least not any more than they can stop you from winning the general, and in fact it is easier for you to win the primary, since the Democratic electorate is to the left of the general electorate, and Democratic primary voters tend to be even more progressive.
Then you win the general election. They'll help you, or at least not fight against you. And even if they fought against you, which they wouldn't, you already beat them once, so why wouldn't you beat them again, particularly if you think you would have beat them running as a third party anyway?
Then you hold power, and you will take over the DNC. Sound like a pipe dream? Well, it is a pipe dream. It's just that it would take a whole lot less for this one to come true than it would for your third party pipe dream to come true.
And the realistic dream is that you organize a cohesive bloc of progressive voters, who can deliver more voters, money and volunteer power on election day, and then you have some real bargaining power within the Party and a real voice on who the candidates are, on what the positions are, and on policy.
> "The party is a ruling class party."
And you show your hand here. You do not propose a realistic strategy for effecting progressive change through electoral action because you do not believe this is possible. Instead, you fantasize about overthrowing the entire "American political system" [from another of your posts]. I think you must be a member of some little Red revolution cult.
> "You're trying to convince people that the way to fight the evils of corporate capitalism is "to work within""
No, work THROUGH. The Democratic Party is our gateway to power. We have to work ON it as much as IN it and we work THROUGH it to have as much influence as we can on national policy. That doesn't mean blindly support "the Democrats."
Nader2000 (7:13 pm) -- I've heard your theory about the "first-past-the-post, winner-take-all elections" necessarily leading to a 2-party system many times now. Your theory is all form and no substance. It's just a pitiable attempt to construct an intellectual-sounding rationalization for selling out to the Democrats & the status quo.
You write that "There is NOTHING that prevents progressives... from acting within the system, through the Democratic Party, to effect at least some of what we want." Like most of what you say, this is a real knee-slapper. It conflicts with daily reality, & with the main political lessons of the last 40 years.
In fact, the entire institutional structure of the Dem Party, and its whole roster of elected officials, consultants, strategists, donors, apparatchiks, & media voices, as well as its own history & internal party culture -- this entire structure has been set up, and honed for decades, to function as an impregnable barrier against any possibility of progressives' "effecting at least some of what we want." The party is a ruling class party. Virtually all its influential figures are rich, sit on corporate boards, are lobbyists on the side, & have a plethora of personal & professional ties to all aspects of the US Establishment, including banks, brokerages, defense contractors, drug companies, & the like. (In case you don't know this, the "Establishment" is the enemy of real progressives.)
The natural consequence of the Democrats' worthlessness are the facts that there have been zero progressive achievments since Medicare (1965), zero progressive presidents since FDR (& that was a unique case), and there are close to zero progressives in Congress today. By contrast, this page wouldn't be long enough to list all the betrayals of the Democrats -- sellouts on every issue from war to health care to regulation to fair elections. They are such degenerate scum that they don't even stand to oppose torture, the abolishment of habeas corpus, or NSA eavesdropping
You're trying to convince people that the way to fight the evils of corporate capitalism is "to work within" a thoroughly-corrupt party of spineless corporate hacks, whose basic (& deeply institutionalized) societal function is warding off challenges to corporate capitalism. Lots of luck with that --it's a pretty tough sell.
Krugman rarely disappoints. He's pointed out, very concretely, a primary flaw in Obama. He is naive, and by allowing big business at the table he assumes the validity of the term 'corporate citizen' which Edwards rejects.
Isn't the idea of 'corporate citizen' a contradiction in terms? Isn't it destroying the republic? Has it already?
I must say both candidates register higher than others on the apparent sincerity meter (note how I qualify that). Edwards says some of what I want to hear but not as much as Kucinich or Gravel say.
Too bad the MSM have narrowed our choice of nominee so drastically.
I like Edwards too...but did anyone watch what happened this weekend with Ron Paul? He's got a huge, bottom up force of folks raising money like crazy--and he's one of the few politicians willing to discuss the Fed (private banking cartel that is holding a gun to all our heads) and putting corporations back where they belong.
Today, no President will be the solution--because a corporatized America that requires massive consumption doesn't change from the top down...it has to come from the bottom up. If we change our actions and beliefs, then we can elect a president that works for us--instead of the corporations.
Check out www.realwealtheconomy and www.rianeeisler.com
Good post nodozejoe and others here.
daveg said:
"AdeleTheCzech: Ezeflyer: I also favor decriminalizing pot, but good grief — if Edwards doesn't agree that's a REALLY minor point on which to withhold your vote for him!
Yes - thanks for pointing that out. But then, Ezeflyer & co. will probably forget to show up anyway :-)"
Very funny daveg.
Adele:
It's no minor point when marijuana is lumped in with hard drugs and used as an excuse to invade other countries, poison their environment with herbicides and kill their crops and people in a WOD like we have done in Panama and are doing in Columbia, Afghanistan and others.
If we were serious about defunding narco-trafficking guerillas, the clear response would be to legalize the drugs they profit from. So marijuana is another excuse our fascists use to take away your constitutional rights and establish fascist dictatorships for corporations. The same corporations Edwards rails against.
Edwards is the only candidate that is talking the talk to progressives concerning the corporate state. That is a big plus. But how seriously can we take him and how sound is his judgment? This can be measured by his stand on this top progressive issue, marijuana legalization. ALL his Dem running mates said on the second debate that it should be legalized.
Concerning marijuana, Edwards is either uninformed, misinformed, or wants to keep this club over our heads. Judging by his contradictory position on the issue of marijuana and corporations that use the WOD for imperialist purposes, Edwards is simply telling progressives what we want to hear to get progressive's support.
nodozejoze -
Either you completely failed to comprehend the realities I was talking about, or else you are suggesting that Americans "vote in" a completely new constitutional and electoral structure.
There is no way for the latter to happen. It would be extremely dangerous if you could even open that door, and there is little reason to believe the outcome would be positive. I shudder to think of what would come out of a new American Constitutional Convention.
If, on the other hand, you had the people organized and mobilized to such a degree that you could contemplate replacing the US Constitution, there would be no need to do so, because the same organized and mobilized populace could just as well work through the present structures to effect the real-world changes we want, forgetting political formalities.
The point is, the problem here is NOT the two-party system. There is NOTHING that prevents progressives as much as any other constituency from acting within the system, through the Democratic Party, to effect at least some of what we want, as much as our numbers and strength permit. No way could we get more, or actually, anything, by any other supposed route to power.
The idea that the problem is that the Democrats are not progressive enough is an illusion, because identification with the Party is an illusion. In a two-party system, you have to form a coalition with half the electorate. You can be as far Left a member of that coalition as you like, and you can work to move it in your direction, but if you are at the Left end there is not much likelihood that you are going to hold the leadership. But you can still organize independently of the Party, talk issues and be as far Left as you like.
You can do that as a third party, too, but in that case you will always just lose at election time and you will not have any influence on the actual politicians and policy.
RichM....good post, as usual.
I remember reading somewhere that early on in the 1932 campaign FDR asked one of his aides what he had to do in order to win. The Answer: Stay alive until election day!
When a victory is that obvious a candidate really doesn't have to be specific.
I think the New Deal evolved after victory was won. That was good but also bad because it seems to me many liberals see campaigns as a way to get elected and then the real progressive/populist agenda can be revealed.
That really worked well with those two Southern Populist/Progressives Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton didn't it. I see the same dynamic at work here with Edwards and to an even greater extent with Obama. They are what they are, not what we would like them to be. There is no delusion like liberal self-delusion.
Where is today's Huey Long?
This will be my last post tonight--its near midnight and there´s a windstorm brewing in Iceland.
Nader2000, you wrote:
"European countries have a variety of constitutional and electoral formulas that are more or less friendly to multiparty systems. In the USA we have first-past-the-post, winner-take-all elections and a constitution that basically does not leave room for anything else. This structure dictates a two-party system."
Well my friend, you must be new here. Those countries got their systems by voting them in. Regularly (and despite huge infusions of CIA money funding fascists, just read William Blum´s Killing Hope)and against many odds they broke open dead systems (like ours) and created a mix of capitalism and socialism that by US standards is considered "Left."
And Iceland (where I live) just got rated the best place to live i nthe world. Why? Because it has a reponsive government, is a free society, no one goes hungry, schools are all well-funded, no one is denied health care and, as I mentioned, paid paternity and maternity leave on top of 4 weeks paid vacation (the range in Europe is 4-6).
Things didn´t magically happen. People stopped voting for idiots who favor the status quo and voted in visionaries and smaller parties that eventually became part of the government and part of the regular political scene.
So the "structure" you write about is not written in stone. It weakens every time we vote for those who want a new and better one.
And some of us have seen what a better system looks like and know you can do it over there.
If you avoid the kool-aid.
Why do so many middle class people who work and draw a salary vote for Republicans who are dedicated to destroying their way of life? The answer, to a great degree, is fear - the eternal emotional bull in the human race's china shop. The Democrats have almost no capacity to inspire Americans to vote their hopes and not their fears. They have become cowards and pussies, bantamweights in a political world of super heavyweight thugs, thieves and killers. People who identify themselves as Democrats won't support a Kucinich or a Richardson or a Gravel. Instead, they support Clinton or Obama who have no chance of winning against the Republican Toilet Squad who will bury them in tons of the foulest political shit money can buy. And if by some fluke (because this is real life and not a movie or a novel) a Clinton or Obama wins . . . it won't make any difference because they don't really stand for anything of a populist nature anyway. Post-Kennedy assassination, post-Vietnam, it seems that big government, whether it's run by Republicans or Democrats, is only good for stealing your money and getting you killed. So perhaps it is time to vote for someone like Ron Paul who is dedicated to ridding us of what has now become the hopeless mercantile tyranny that is the federal government.
Re the FDR references on this thread: Rebel Farmer (3:49 pm) cites a famous passage from the 1936 Madison Sq Garden speech, given on the eve of that year's election. This is indeed thrilling stuff, & is a direct no-holds-barred appeal to class-based anger. As this relates to the ongoing discussion here, the speech was much closer to Edwards (a phony but skillful left-talking pseudoprogressive) than to Obama (a milquetoast who won't even offer rhetorical opposition to "the forces of organized money", let alone real opposition).
However, as thrilling as this particular FDR speech was, an important thing to know about it is that it was very untypical of him. He usually didn't make these kinds of direct "class warfare" appeals. When running in 1932 for his first term, in fact, no one had any idea of what his program was going to be. It's possible that he didn't even know, himself (ie, that the New Deal took shape as his new administration tried to keep pace with developments). Most voters just knew that the country was in a terrible mess, & that FDR came from a distinguished family, seemed to be very affable, & radiated a kind of optimism.
So Nader2000 (5:45 pm) is right to say that FDR usually talked more like Obama than like Edwards (though the 1936 speech was an exception to this generality). On the other hand, FDR governed more like Edwards talks, than like either Edwards or Obama would govern.
// I can't resist taking a whack at those who are calling for an "Edwards-Kucinich ticket." This is a joke. Edwards would NEVER in a million years pick Kucinich as a running mate (despite their friendly social relationship). That's absolutely fantasy, just as unrealistic as believing that Kucinich could win the pres. nomination.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Kucinich support went to Edwards in the 2004 Iowa caucuses. I hope it happens again this time. If they throw their support to either Clinton or Obama, it will be a sad day for progressives.
nodozejoze - You are the one selling Kool-Aid. European countries have a variety of constitutional and electoral formulas that are more or less friendly to multiparty systems. In the USA we have first-past-the-post, winner-take-all elections and a constitution that basically does not leave room for anything else. This structure dictates a two-party system.
Accordingly, political parties do not have quite the same meaning here. The parties are very weak, loose structures, formalized by law, and are open to competing constituencies vying for influence. Anyone can run as a Democrat or as a Republican and win the party's nomination in a primary election.
We have had the same two nominal parties since the Civil War and they have undergone a complete transformation. The Republican Party of Lincoln became the party of big business and entrenched wealth. The Democratic Party of the slaveholding South became the party of FDR and LBJ and Jimmy Carter.
Here in America, third party Kool-Aid offers the satisfaction of declaring yourself a "Green" or a "Socialist" or whatever else you fancy, and washing your hands of the evil deeds the corporate Democrats do or acquiesce to. However, it wastes your political energies in an ineffectual, quixotic crusade. It does not stop the evil, it does not move things in a positive direction. It just feels good, it doesn't actually do good.
KUCINICH/EDWARDS!
Well, really good stuff here. I thought I'd offer my two cents.
To Paul Smith: You mention an Edwards/Kucinich or K/E ticket. Honestly, I think there'd be no chance. First, I think there's no chance K will be nominated. And if Edwards did get it, he would do what 90% of the time Dems do—get an ideological or regional "opposite" for "balance." Kennedy/Johnson, Gore/Lieberman, Kerry/Edwards, for ex.
Barn Burner: You mention Europe. Well I live in Europe and the only reason they have a multi-party system is because people voted in other parties! It´s really quite simple.
You can´t get the system you want by voting for people who don´t want that system.
So voting for Dems—who don´t want proportional representation, or IRV, for ex. will never, ever get you a Green or a Socialist or a Libertarian. Why? Because politics is about competition. The debates are rigged by the two major parties. The ballots are created by the two party systems in each state. They don't want other parties getting their votes (and money.) So, they (the Dems, for ex.) talk Left, move Right (Bill Clinton's classic "triangulation" strategy) and piss off everybody. That's why Clinton lost a Dem majority in both House and Senate by the end of his first term—he lost his core and his Rep opponents hated him anyway. You have to continually vote Dems out. Regularly. Every time you have a local or state seat up for grabs, put as much energy into defeating the Dem as you put writing here. Beat the Dems and get Greens in. Or Socialists. Or whomever you like. But the battered wife syndrome progressives suffer from will kill us all.
Rich M: Re: Edwards as "phony." Well...of course. He´s a politician! Here in Europe I have met no one who trusts pols. I don't understand why USAmericans think who they vote for is virtuous. They are not. And who cares anyway? They are your employees, get them to work for you and who cares if they like you or not, or are like you or not. Edwards doesn't fool socialists but he doesn't need to. He's a Dem. But, at this point, he's a Dem who has caught a good virus and knows which way the public wind is moving: progressive Left.
CoMarc: You are so fabulously spot on I hope you repeat this everywhere: where is that "Kucinich slate"? He´s had 4 years to build a following, to rally progressives, to put out an agenda for the future. Edwards has been doing it. And we can't say its just about money. Ron Paul does it. Truth is, Kucinich is another in a long line of "progressive" Dems whose purpose is to keep us in line. Great observation!
Rebel Farmer: Your second choice example is excellent. That's practical thinking and will help us all alot more than crying over Kucinich. As for VP, my statement to Paul Smith stands. If Edwards gets it his first choice will be Clinton. (This way he gets the best of everything—keeps Bill close, Hillary closer and neutralizes her ambition for 8 years). His 2nd choice will be Obama. And down the line (though most of them will keep Biden as their hoped for Sec of State.) But who really cares? If progressives can get Edwards to get the Dem nomination—we own him. His winning the election and then a re-election will depend on him working for us. He has David Bonior with him and that's a plus. But really, we have alot to gain if we push this guy with no illusions about anything.
And Nader2000. Wow. You are defintely the kool-aid man. Getting us progressives to drink from that cup is the stupid moves that keep the same system in place year after year in the US. The PDA is just another alphabet soup for progressives to go die in. You need to get out more. Come visit Europe and see what multi-party democracies look like and how they work.
They didn´t get this way by thinking in the box of staying with the only games in town. They pushed the edges and won crusial victories in labor, economics and a social system that provides everybody with health care and 4-6 weeks paid vacation per year. Stick with PDA or the Dems and you can keep your USAmerican 10 days with no pay and no health care, and no paid maternity/paternity leave. (I am not even a citizen here and they give me the right to vote in local elections, paid paternity leave and free health care for me and my family.) That´s right, drink the kool-aid. It´ll always stay the same that way...
Krugman seems to be the one being naive here, taking Edwards' and Obama's rhetoric at face value instead of thinking about what each candidate is trying to achieve.
Edwards whines on about corporate power and how he's going to fight for the little guy. He just never explains how, other than that he did so as a trial lawyer. Did he do so as a senator? How will he do it as president? Not explained.
Well, Edwards is running behind and trying to appeal to the Democratic base, trying to claim the progressive vote with Kucinich sidelined. If he should win the nomination, or the No. 2 spot, he'll change his tune as quickly as he can flash that phoney smile of his.
Obama, meanwhile, is now the front-runner. He clearly outclasses both Edwards and Clinton. He's got something, and what have they got? So, he's sitting pretty. Acting presidential. Doesn't need to pander to the base. He's using the rhetoric that's worked for him up to now, the rhetoric of uniting the country and bringing everyone together, yes, including the evil corporations Edwards toothlessly prattles about. This will serve him well not only in the general election, but when he is in the White House.
Yes, Prof. Krugman, meaningful health care reform will require cutting into the profits of the drug and health insurance industries, and single-payer would require essentially abolishing the latter. No, they're not going to come to the table and play nice. But does anybody seriously believe anything can happen without at least calling them to the table and attempting to compromise? Or that the political will needed to collar and domesticate them will be mustered by the rhetoric of division and class conflict rather than by the rhetoric of uniting (to cover the reality of class conflict)?
Go back and listen to the speeches of FDR. He spoke like Obama, not like Edwards.
re COMarc's comments:
It's true that, like Nader, Kucinich is not building a movement behind himself. That's probably a good thing; it's not so good, for example, that Howard Dean left behind a mass organization which is too much controlled by the DNC.
The Green Party claims to be building structures and a movement. That is the right idea, but I don't see them making much headway, and that is a good thing, because the Green Party represents movement in the wrong direction, away from effective engagement with the political process in this country.
The right movement is that represented by Progressive Democrats of America and other non-party political organizations that work through the Democratic Party. It will be a great day when PDA absorbs DFA and Green Party activists come to their senses.
The conclusion is inescapable: Edwards is the only candidate who we can be confidant to win and attempt to govern in any sort of progressive/populist manner. What if he picked Kucinich as his running mate? I think it would be great!
AdeleTheCzech: Ezeflyer: I also favor decriminalizing pot, but good grief — if Edwards doesn't agree that's a REALLY minor point on which to withhold your vote for him!
Yes - thanks for pointing that out. But then, Ezeflyer & co. will probably forget to show up anyway :-)
COMarc - Great questions. And I think that the progressives out there that were thinking that the Dem party could be changed from within has changed radically since the last election. And the grassroots is in fact fielding progressive candidates to go up against incumbant Dems in both the House and the Senate. It is already happening. Dems are rejecting the DLC, DSCC, DCCC and all the other established organizations within the party. They are refusing to feed the status quo, corporate fed monster with their contributions. Many will now only support individual candidates, not the "party". This also seems to be happening on the Repug side as well.
So, I think it is good that Kucinish is running and has a platform to at least wake up a few folks. It would be great if he got elected because he would have a veto pen, the ability to make appointments, and be able to at least advance an agenda. I do wish he would join the Green party though if he doesn't get the nomination or a VP slot.
Vote NADER, a person who has fought "The Good Fight" and who would radically change politics in this country for generations to come. He speaks more truth in one minute, than most of these "scripted" candidates will in their entire political career. Go RALPH!
P.S. I hope you run as a Green Party Candidate
No one elected as President could do much without Congressional support. Especially if they also oppose the sort of non-democratic governing that Bush has done with regard to basically writing his own laws and using signing statements to ignore what Congress says is the law.
So, tell me this about Kucinich ... why is it that he's not leading a full slate of candidates that are challenging the corporate candidates across the whole spectrum of the Democratic Party? Why isn't there a 'Kucinich candidate" in every Democratic primary for Representative or Senator.
There's only a handful of progressives in the House right now. I think there's a caucus that numbers in the 60's, but on some votes it drops down to numbers that can be counted on both hands. Certainly nothing that a President Kucinich could use to pass an agenda. So, where's the campaign from the Kucinich forces inside the Democratic Party to run a primary challenge for every House seat and for ever US Senate seat?
The Green's probably won't be up to doing it in all the races either, but if I look realistically, they are a lot closer to running this sort of slate of candidates than what I see from the Kucinich-istas in the Democratic Party.
I like Dennis from what I see of him. But, whenever I stop and think about some of these practical aspects, I really don't see him as being serious. After all, this is the second time he's run for Prez, and you'd think after 5 or 6 years he'd have this movement to the point where it really is not just his campaign but also the lead of an overall movement within the Democratic Party. And I just don't see it. All of which leaves me with the impression that his campaign is just a distraction and not really serious about gaining or holding power.
The Green Party has its faults, and its not up to the level of being able to really fight for power ... yet. But at least its building the right structures. Its building a party and a movement. It builds at least some party struture that persists beyond a single campaign, and its building up the strength to run congressional and senate candidates across the nation. All I ever see from Kucinich is just his campaigns ... which fade to black when he always endorses the Dem candidate the corporations have chosen. Shouldn't all this effort into Kucinich's campaign's build something other than having a few delegates at a convention where no one cares what they think anyways?
P.S. About that FDR thing - "At the opposite extreme, John Edwards blames the power of the wealthy and corporate interests for our problems, and says, in effect, that America needs another F.D.R. - a polarizing figure, the object of much hatred from the right, who nonetheless succeeded in making big changes."
Thought you might enjoy this FDR quote when he was running for a second term in 1936:
"For twelve years this Nation was afflicted with hear-nothing, see-nothing, do-nothing Government. The Nation looked to Government but the Government looked away. Nine mocking years with the golden calf and three long years of the scourge! Nine crazy years at the ticker and three long years in the breadlines! Nine mad years of mirage and three long years of despair! Powerful influences strive today to restore that kind of government with its doctrine that that Government is best which is most indifferent.
For nearly four years you have had an Administration which instead of twirling its thumbs has rolled up its sleeves. We will keep our sleeves rolled up.
We had to struggle with the old enemies of peace -- business and financial monopoly, speculation, reckless banking, class antagonism, sectionalism, war profiteering.
They had begun to consider the Government of the United States as a mere appendage to their own affairs. We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.
Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me -- and I welcome their hatred.
I should like to have it said of my first Administration that in it the forces of selfishness and of lust for power met their match. I should like to have it said of my second Administration that in it these forces met their master."
Great stuff!
Paul S.: I like it! What would be really cool is if, in states like Iowa, folks in the caucus that are for Kucinish would throw their second ballots to Edwards. That could tip the scales. I wish more states had caucuses. It's more like IRV voting than anything else we have.
Further, I would like ALL the candidates to understand that the American people DO NOT need universal health insurance. What we need and want is universal access to medical care. As in single payor. We don't want the government doling out healthcare. We just want them to PAY for it equally for every man, woman, and child in the whole country. This is not socialized medicine. This is socialized insurance! I hope everyone understands the difference.
There's a magnificent sentence in this article: "The fact is that there's no way to reduce the gross wastefulness of our health system without also reducing the profits of the industries that generate the waste."
This is incredibly truthful, for an MSM column. (Of course, Krugman is about as good as the MSM gets.) And the point could be broadly generalized, because it really points to a central problem with capitalism itself. It's not just about health care. The point's generalized form would be explicit recognition that there's no way to make substantial improvements in US society, "without also reducing the profits of the industries" controlling whatever problem is being discussed. For instance, there's no way to combat global warming without confronting the power of the energy companies. There's no way to oppose constant war & insane military spending, without reducing the profits of the military-industrial-governmental complex. // Ultimately, this must be faced -- but official politics in the US refuses to face it.
// As for the "candidate" discussion: Edwards made a great comment, there: "Some people argue that we're going to sit at a table with these people and they're going to voluntarily give their power away. I think it is a complete fantasy; it will never happen." This is awfully good, I must admit -- despite the fact I see Edwards as basically a phony.
I stand with nodozejoze, above (2:55 pm) -- I vote for socialists, or sometimes Greens -- not for corporate candidates. But I notice that Edwards has really developed an art form of "talking left," on selected occasions (very selected), the above quote being an example of that. His act is smooth enough to fool liberals, though not good enough to fool socialists.
I don't understand how Krugman, who is primarily an economic writer, could leave out the 800 pound gorilla in the corner - the "institutional investors" - insurance comapanies and pension plans - who keep the Ponzi scheme called Wall Street afloat. They will NEVER give up this slush fund voluntarily and Obama has revealed himself as just another whore.
I don't get it! Will someone explain to me how a Green, Socialist or Independent President will carry out an agenda with a Congress that composed of Democrats and Republicans? In Europe where these minorities are regularly voted into the legislative bodies it make sense but here we are stuck with an archaic system with voters who only understand this system where "Green" and "Socialist" are dirty words.
Are we all pretty much in agreement that Edwards/Kucinich or even Kucinich/Edwards would be the dream ticket?
Adele,
I dote vote for Democrats--that should be clear, no? I vote for Greens, or Socialists, or Independents, but I don´t waste my vote with a corporate party. My comments are directed to those who do vote Dem,the best choice at this point, i.e., the most practical solution, is probably Edwards. As I said, he´s no Kucinich re: positions, but Kucinich will never get closer to the White House than a photo op or a tourist pass.
Funny how most of the people I talk to like Kucinich, yet he is still considered unelectable. It's the media, stupid. (Not meant literally for anyone here!)
The media has decided not to acknowledge Kucinich because he really is a threat to corporations. I used to say "corporate America," but corporations are no more America than the big name toys on the market for our children. Or the cars on American car lots, our TVs, video games, or most of the products we consume.
America is essentially owned by large, multinational corporations who continue to thrive in part by appealing to American patriotism. How bizarre is that?
Kucinich is definitely the only candidate with whom I agree on all the issues, but at least Edwards has identified the problems with big business, the super-wealthy, the increasing divide between the haves and havenots and the dwindling middle class.
I'd surely prefer a Kucinich candidacy, but Edwards is a close second. I suppose no one is quite perfect, although I haven't found anything Kucinich has said with which I disagree.
It's too bad Kucinich is being ignored or denigrated by so much of the media. Fortunately, Edwards is a strong enough contender that he cannot be totally ignored. It's been my belief for some time that he will be the candidate.
Perhaps America is ready for a woman or a black man as president, but Clinton is not the woman, and I don't think Obama is the man. Edwards is still part of the American "norm" - a good looking, well spoken, up-from-poverty white male. He also holds many of the ideals of the average citizen, and he is saying many of the right things.
Healthcare will be a tough problem to solve. For a historical note, universal (socialist, if you like) healthcare in Great Britain was very difficult to achieve. Even though the system had been largelynationalised at the start of World War II, to co-ordinate the care of the expected massive civilian casualties that would result from German bombing raids, the post-war Labour government still faced a massive obstacle in the form of senior hospital doctors, who made a handsome living from private patients. In the memorable phrase of the Health Minister, Aneurin Bevan, he "stuffed their mouths with gold" - allowed them to work both privately and within the nationalised system.
It seems to me the drug companies in the USA have already been stuffed with gold, and your problem is how to get them to give some of it up.
heavyrunner,
I think Mr. Krugman was using the modifier "serious" to indicate some plausible scenario exists for a candidate in which the candidate could win the primary and the general election. I like Kucinich, but actually I would prefer someone to the left of Kucinich. But we never hear about those far left candidates because they poll under one-tenth of one percent. And we do not hear much about Kucinich, because he polls under two percent. At some point, we all compromise or we delude ourselves.
What makes these candidates "serious?" How can you possibly consider your self academically serious, Professor Krugman, if you do not include Congressman Dennis Kucinich in your list?
You definition of serious appears to be "endorsed by the corporate media" and "sold out to corporate contributions."
The fact is, Dennis Kucinich is the most serious of all the candidates. Listen to the passion in which he proposes the 21st century equivalent of the New Deal.
While John Edwards is waxing serious and knitting his brow over correct labeling on medicine bottles, Dennis Kucinich is calling for Medicare for All.
While Hillary Clinton is getting serious about what posture to take in general, Dennis Kucinich is calling for an immediate orderly withdrawal of all U.S. forces from Iraq and an international peace conference.
And so on.
Dennis Kucnich has laid out a complete program for energy conversion and transportation conversion. A solartopia green future that is the only serious choice for a survivable culture.
Please get serious Professor Krugman.
Ezeflyer: I also favor decriminalizing pot, but good grief -- if Edwards doesn't agree that's a REALLY minor point on which to withhold your vote for him! He's the only electable Dem who's not in bed with Corporate America. What's more, the latest polls show him beating every single one of the Republican candidates in a head-to-head matchup!
Nodozejoze: You say "I will not vote for a Democrat..." So what are you gonna do, stay home and be part of the problem? Besides, there are Dems like the late Paul Wellstone, and there are Dems like Holy Joe. Why not admit to the enormous gulf between Edwards and Hillary? She's beholden to big money and corporate power and he is NOT. He also knows we have a long fight on our hands to wrest our country back from the plutocrats who run everything now, and he's ready to do battle.
In 2004 Edwards floundered in the debates when it came to foreign policy. But he's smart enough to have gotten a broad education in the meantime. Did you hear him on Charlie Rose? This time he's really informed.
Obama talks about the Audacity of Hope. There is nothing audacious about hoping. We all hope for a better world. Bringing one about requires fighting the good fight. Yes fighting.
If you want to be accomodating and bipartisan that won't do it. We all know that to the Dems bipartisanship equals surrender.
The reasons so many of us on the left will not support either Hillary or Obama is that Hillary IS the enemy and Obama wants to sit down with enemy and make nice.We want to FIGHT the enemy.
Someone once told me the trouble with liberals is they are too fair minded and nice to take even their own side in an argument.
We don't want to be offered hope. We want action. We want the ones who have trashed our country and our constitution to be held accountable.That is step one toward a future we all HOPE for.
Imagine that, the NYT actually making a clear distinction between candidates! Calling Obama "naive" is extremely kind. It speaks either (or both) to his inexperience and to his ability to say one thing while meaning another. He uses Republican code as well as they do (e.g. "protecting our national interests" in Iraq--meaning let's get their oil). If we have any hope of advancing a progressive agenda, Edwards is it. The corporate interests have been running this county for too long; to carry the metaphor, they have catered, served and gorged at the table. It's time to end the buffet for them, and let Middle America enjoy more than the scraps tossed to us.
KUCINICH!!
Krugman has come his closest to an endorsement of Edwards and frankly, he´d be right.
Clinton has more baggage than an airport luggage carousel. Oh, she might win the election if she gets the Democratic nomination, but she´ll divide the Dems so badly, they will lose their majorities in both Houses of Congress. Just like her husband did. Her regard for the "soul" of the Party (if it still exists) is nil. She, like her husband, is out for number 1, and most people sense it.
Obama, on the other hand, has that beautifully stentorian voice and enough charm to mask what a centrist/conservative Democrat he really is. Perhaps, "corporate" Democrat is better. but then, to paraphrase Bill Clinton, "they´re all corporate Democrats now." If he got the nomination, he too just might win a general election. But his majority would go down in flames too, once Breszinski and other neo-cons get Cabinet positions.
Which leaves Edwards. At present, he talks the talk. Recent CNN and FOX polls show that he beats EVERY Republican, and with bigger margins, than any other Dem.
Beats every Republican. More than every other Dem.
Why? It´s simple. Because he has decided to take the mantle of Left opposition to establlishment Dems (and despite Oprah, Obama is a corporate Dem). Edwards knows that people are worried and anxious, that without fighting for a better country, the corporate Dems will pass their plate to their corporate sponsors and working folks will be excluded, yet again. Edwards has that quality tha tthe Dems are looking for as well--"electability." Oh, he is no Kucinich--but Kucinich is no President. It won´t happen and those who threaten to bolt from the Dems or voting altogether if DK doesn´t get the nod should leave now. History hurts and he, just like Jerry Brown, Jesse Jackson, Shirley Chisholm, Eugene McCarthy, etc., will, in the end, fold back all those "progressives" who flocked to him believing a new future was headed.
I am not a Democrat. I will not vote for a Democrat for President. (Havent since 1992 and that was a clear mistake.) But if teh Dems want to take back the White House AND keep a mojority in both Houses then they have to take someone who can win in the South, draw in working folks and take on corporate domination of our political sphere. Can he do it? Maybe. With the push from all those who write and talk politics and who care enough to get involved, yes, it´s possible. But if one merely pushes a lever and then goes back to watching TV or reading too many online articles, then no.
It certainly is up to us to force a Presedent´s hand. Think FDR who once turned to a group of "supporters" whose ranks included Socialists, "Look, I believe in what you say. Now go out there and make me do it." He knew that without pressure from below he´d have no mandate.
Neither Clinton (who flees challenging the status quo as fast as her husband flees marital fidelity) nor Obama (who will take equivocation and make a virtue of it) can challenge the status quo enough to rally the Dems and maybe progressives and hold onto a majority to get things done. It ain´t perfect (I personally would prefer Nader) but it could work. Think about it.
Great article Paul. Edwards is the man. If he wants the progressive vote, he has to put an end to the theo-corporate War on Drugs and poor mostly young people of color here and overseas to take the profits from the drug mafias and their pharmaceutical counterparts and end the drug/private prison/industrial complex.
If Edwards continues to support the criminalization of marihuana, a harmless medicinal herb and the only one that is detectable in fascist urine tests, he can't be trusted. Progressives are the best educated among us. We won't be fooled again.
I see a lot of talk about working within the Dem Party or going to a third party. Here in Iowa, Green made a momentary appearance in 2000 and it is gone. I just don't see the third party route as a realistic option.
The progressive community has generally acknowledge public campaign financing is the way to minimize the incumbent grip on power.
No one is talking about Edwards is the only Dem candidate taking public financing. That alone deserves my support and I will be caucusing for him come January 3.
I could see in 2004 that John Edwards was extremely electable. At the time I thought that if he had been at the top of the ticket they would have won. Now I know that only a landslide would have stopped the theft of the election. This time around I'm not sure even that will stop the theft of the 2008 election.
I agree that Edwards is the most electable of the three "top polling" candidates. I'm sure the corporate media will fight tooth and nail to keep him off the ballot. It's hilarious hypocrisy for them to cry foul when he talks about fighting for the working class. What do they think the elite have been up to? Playing nice in the sandbox?