Oceans' Growing Acidity Alarms Scientists
WASHINGTON - Seven hundred miles west of Seattle in the Pacific at Ocean Station Papa, a first-of-its-kind buoy is anchored to monitor a looming environmental catastrophe.
Forget about sea levels rising as glaciers and polar ice melt, and increasing water temperatures affecting global weather patterns. As the oceans absorb more and more carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases, they're gradually becoming more acidic.
And some scientists fear that the change may be irreversible.
At risk are sea creatures up and down the food chain, from the tiniest phytoplankton and zooplankton to whales, from squid to salmon to crabs, coral, oysters and clams.
The oceans are already 30 percent more acidic than they were at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, as they absorb 22 tons of carbon dioxide a day. By the end of the century, they could be 150 percent more acidic.
"Everything points to dramatic effects," said Richard Feely, an oceanographer with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration in Seattle. "There are suggestions the entire ecosystem could change over time."
Originally, scientists thought the oceans could be one of the solutions to the buildup of greenhouse gases, as they absorb about one-third of the carbon dioxide that's emitted worldwide. But they now know that the fundamental chemistry of the oceans has changed, and the possible impacts seem to grow more nightmarish as research accelerates.
"It seems like it is a one-way street, and that is alarming," said Steven Emerson, a professor of oceanography at the University of Washington. "The pH of the oceans could be lowered permanently."
Emerson was the lead scientist on the team that built the buoy at Ocean Station Papa, where weather measurements have been taken since the 1940s. The 10-foot-diameter buoy is equipped with an array of sensors that, among other things, measure the amount of carbon dioxide that's being absorbed by the North Pacific and the pH, or acid levels, of the ocean. Anchored in water 5,000 feet deep, the buoy relays its information to onshore scientists via satellite.
Of all the oceans in the world, the North Pacific could be the most vulnerable to acidification.
As the oceans' deepest waters circulate around the globe, they eventually arrive in the North Pacific, where they rise near the surface before plunging deep again to continue their global journey. When the water arrives in the North Pacific, it's already acidic from the carbon produced by decaying organic material during its 1,000-year journey from the North Atlantic through the Indian Ocean and across the Pacific, Feely said.
As it surfaces, or upwells, in the North Pacific, the water absorbs even more carbon dioxide from the air. Cold water absorbs more carbon dioxide than warm water does.
"The older water is in the Pacific, the newer water is in the Atlantic," Feely said. "There's 10 percent more carbon dioxide in the Pacific than in the Atlantic."
Corrosive water 600 to 700 feet deep already has been detected off the continental shelf of Washington state, Oregon and Alaska, Feely said.
"It's butting right up against the coast," he said. "The concern is when it gets to the continental shelf, what it will do to the fisheries."
The increasing acidity can eat away at the shells of crabs, oysters, clams and nearly microscopic organisms known as krill and pteropods. It also inhibits calcification, the process in which these animals rebuild their shells. Without shells, most of the animals probably would die.
Krill and pteropods are a major food source for juvenile salmon, herring, pollock, cod, mackerel and other fish.
"When you start messing with the lower end of the food chain, it can dramatically affect the higher end of the food chain," Feely said.
Squid also are sensitive to higher acidity, which affects their blood circulation and respiration. Colonies of coral, including those in tropical waters and those found deep off the Northwest coast, could disappear.
Feely said that 500 million to 1 billion people worldwide depended on fish for survival. Sharp declines in fish populations would affect their lives.
Eventually, the acidification will reach into inland waters, affecting oyster beds and clamming areas.
Earlier this month, the Senate Commerce Committee passed a bill co-sponsored by Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., that would create a comprehensive ocean-acidification research and monitoring program. A similar measure has been introduced in the House of Representatives.
Cantwell said she expected her Oceans, Atmosphere, Fisheries and Coast Guard subcommittee of the Commerce Committee to hold hearings in the Northwest on ocean acidification early next year.
"It's a little-known fact, not widely understood, but it is clear our oceans are suffering," Cantwell said.
A San Francisco environmental group, the Center for Biodiversity, has asked 10 states - Washington, Oregon, California, Alaska, Hawaii, Florida, New York, New Jersey, Maine and Delaware - to declare their coastal waters "impaired" under the Clean Water Act because of rising acidity. Such a move could clear the way for the states to regulate carbon-dioxide emissions.
"Though we believe the science is there, the political will may not be there," said Miyoko Sakashita, a lawyer for the Center for Biodiversity. "At least this will raise awareness among policymakers."
Though cuts in carbon dioxide and other greenhouse-gas emissions might slow or reverse global warming, scientist say it could take thousands of years or longer to reverse the increased acidity of the oceans.
"For all practical purposes this is permanent," Emerson said. "That's not true of temperature. But with ocean acidification the time scales are long."
McClatchy Newspapers 2007
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110 Comments so far
Show Allsimple and effective, begin the end of autosprawl:
free public transit.
http://www.frepubtra.blogspot.com/
.
The above treatise on ammonia was an attempt to illumanate a viable path that does not have to involve CO2 and still use 100 years of existing hardware for living, travel and growing food.
30 people showed up in 2005 at a conferance on NH3 as a fuel at a midwest Mennonite college, 60 last year in Denver and 83 this year in San Francisco, mostly PHDs.
One old man did some of the research for the DOD on PV generated NH3 as sustainable fuel in the 1960s, tears welled up as he described finding the DOD reports Unavailable here, he got them from Israel, sourced through the USSR.
My roommate was building image-comparison devices for Hughes in the late 1980s, all newly invented and hush-hush, covered by patents i showed him from the 1950s!
I spent four days volunteering at "Solfest" in Northern California this summer, 10,000 people showed up for Sat. and Sunday, $45 for a ticket. PVs comming out your ears, 10 years of biodiesel, electric cars and "natural" house building...No change from "Off-The-Grid" in Willits in 1989, but now no wind generation offered.
Like who builds their own house?? Their own car??
The real issue of acidic seas is the result of 150 years of "scientific" (Natural philosophy) choices that were optional: greed and profit is "without redeeming social value", the legal definition of obscene.
Porsche' electric car was on the streets in 1900.
Wankel was dead before his engine "worked".
Diesel was dead before his engine "worked" as he designed it, on bio-oil.
Otto(mobile)was dead by 1891, a hundred years before GM made his gasoline engine "work-(100k miles before your first tuneup")in 1991, with half the MPG of a Model T.
We lose 50% of our electricty getting it to our homes!
My grandfather and Great grandfather built a local community power company in the 1920s, and PG&E flooded out their dam and turbines, built poles on the other side of the street and grandfather died in the powerhouse. So much for local sources.
In 1969, without hope for ending the war, i joined and spent my two years as a combat medic. Fine-tuned my pacifism for life.
Why wait? Your "job" won't be here anyway, unless we act now- Screw the "management".
I read the link you offered PT GUY and understand why you may have a diverse opinion. I do feel the wording of your posts however, created negativism as to the seriousness of the issue.
I choose to accept the info in the link offered by the NASA scientists and the opinions offered by Tundy Agardy Ph.D who states: "The acidity of our oceans is very alarming and it is not surprising that researchers and conservationists are ringing alarm bells."
Carol Turley of the Oscar report, was quoted as saying, "This issue is emerging as one of the most serious problems humanity has ever faced." __Another man, a world renowned, tropical forest ecologist, and the President of the Heinz center, said "When I heard this technical and scientific research information, I considered it to be the most 'chilling' enviromental briefing I have ever had." __ I agree it is also, and I'm just another dufus.
I don't think it is about finding fault. It is almost everyone's fault. However there is learning and by delayed consequences people do not learn or they learn the wrong thing. That is what science does and in the process leaves people that once understood how to live in the world feeling that they have no power or understanding. People can't change until science tells them what to do and that has been corrupted by self-interest. (no not everyone but it's a very big yardstick)
Okay PHYSICS TEACHER GUY. YOU are right and the scientists who have spent their entire adult lives studying the ocean's life are wrong.
Funny, when comparing the ammount of green plant life in the oceans, which develop oxygen, to plants which grow on dry land, it would likely be like comparing the amount of grass on an acre of land, (the phytoplankton) to a twelve foot square plot of grass. Actually a good portion of our planet is desert, water and ice caps. Most of Australia for example. Our forrested land areas have been reduced by over 40% in just the past twenty years.
We need oxygen to breathe, to live, and MOST by far of the oxygen we breathe, comes from the ocean life. That is what this article was all about, man made acids in our oceans. We are surely killing the plant and animal life in our oceans.
Will we stop pollution of our oceans and our atmosphere and attempt to reverse the madness? ___ Not if we listen to some who have posted negative comments here, and also allow the powerful people who 'could' begin a massive effort to so so. __ I can't do it, I don't know what to do myself, except pass the word and hope enough will eventually agree. To say that article of two simple enough paragraphs is incorrect is wrong. Prove they are wrong GUY.
Earth is a biosphere, the atmosphere protected by the ozone layer. We are destroying that protective cover also with MAN MADE pollution. Cover your head with a plastic bag and breathe in until you pass out, that is what humanity is faced with if we destroy the phytoplankton.
It seems to be an intrinsically integrated mechanism in humans to always fall back into the search of 'Who's Guilt Is It Anyways?'
Including myself, as it is so obvious that the problem was caused by governments, controlled and operated by Your friendly but unfortunately corrupt and nepotist representatives on both sides of the white. Blue and red.
I need to stay focussed on the more important aspect of 'How can we make the extinction as 'humane' as possible? It should be enough that we have steadily been pushed and manipulated to obediently consume the skin off the earth.
Now that it is time to sat farewell to human mankind, because it is most unlikely and statistically relative, as to what degree Homo Sapiens will survive the XXXL- Cow Fart that as of now the crawls up the intestines of the Arctic. The desire for everything 'Super Sized', from cars to houses, attire, sports and XXXL-Perfomance enhancing steroids and viagra, have made us believe that there is no tommorow.
In 'my' Class Action Lawsuit 'The Pople Of The United States vs. Bush, Greenspan, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al.' emphasis is not only given the fact, that the white house to the present day refuses to accept that there is a tomorrow to care about, but engaged in a propaganda to dumb down the citizenry and paved the way of consent to hunt down and kill the 'terrorists' taht were responsible for 9-11. Well, it was never necessary to look afar. A well tuned Orchestra of all Services (Except USGS, I love the USGS web page, those people are cool, specifically when it comes to my Beloved Goddess Pele), Spies, Lobbyists, Representatives, Media Content Providers and religious outlets brainwashed the American Public to a degree, where even in the face of certain 'death through environment', people are unable and unwilling to accept responsibility, but foremost and of all things unable to stop the vehicle. To the contrary, as we, the people who knew it all the way and before can now witness. And we were never able before in history to achieve or develop the desire for self sufficiency. Native tribes are the true owners of this planet, as their stewardship of the land that was given to them, never failed, or at least not to my knowledge. If the Yanomami Indians in the Amazon Rainforest (My Deep felt Condolences) would have invented the Chainsaw, things might have turned worse much quicker.
What is Justice in the face of mankind's failure to think about the consequences of its actions? Everything mankind has come up with so far, is the ability to kill itself many times over. We should shove all those missiles up where they belong. Immediate worldwide disarmament and utilization of disarmed military forces to prepare places like Bangladesh for what is coming. To rebuilt New Orleans and reinstated dignity to its wonderful people. We need to be strong, as we will encounter possible back lashes, acts of sabotage by people like the ones who are in power RIGHT now.
Everybody start thinking now about a way to channel the 500 BILLION GALLONS OF ARCTIC METHANE out through the atmosphere into open space.
PhysicsTeacherGuy
I think I disagree with your paradigm. Scientists are not excluded from ethical behavior because they are scientists, nor are the practices and procedures they use to further scientific interests. These interests intersect with the natural world.
This example about geological acidification is not independent from science. Part of the acidification is directly correlated to scientific practices. The arguement that science only seeks to understand and it stops there reminds me of brother explaining to our mother that he didn't kick his sister, his foot did it.
Treefrog, when you ask if science can demonstrate ethical behaviour that is not based on self interest, I think you are asking for the impossible. Ethics, as I understand it, tries to define things like what is right, how the correct way to behave is, how can one live the good life, and so on. Science by definition tries to avoid moral judgements except those which can be shown to be universal. None have yet qualified. You can show "scientifically" that an ethical treatment of each other and the world can lead to one where humans have the most potential, but I think that's an appeal to self interest, and that's the closest I have ever seen to marrying ethics and science. They just don't have much overlap.
Kem, I've had a hard time nailing down oxygen production levels. Certainly over the 4 billion years of earth history, most oxygen was produced by phytoplankton - it wasn't until the earth had a significant oxygen atmosphere and an ozone layer that life could reach the surface, much less land. But what ecological sources I can find say basically what I found on the wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_production - namely that land based plants and aquatic based plants fix similar amounts of carbon and therefore release similar amounts of oxygen - about half of the net flux each. I don't know where the fellow on whyplankton.com got his/her 90% figure from.
By the way, this topic is about 2 years old in scientific literature. This is the sort of "side effect" that many ecologists fear the most - the "unintended consequences" that end up being worse than the ones that we do know about.
Craig
Science does one thing very well, it sustains science and increasing expects you to define the world by it use. When science can demonstrate ethical behavior that is not based on self interest there may be hope for the natural world. Science cannot fix it, it can only stop abusing it and it will recover on it's own.
LAquaker -- Great link to a very courageous and powerful lady: Cynthia McKinney, Green 4 Prez.
Grilling Rumsfeld and a 5-death star General about 911, priceless!
"COWARDS!"
You called?
MATTI writes, we are cowards if we don't throw our bodies into the 'cog' and do something other than just post comments here.
The 'cog' is the powers who control the gold and the world's leaders who could make firm decisions and insure we stop the man made pollution of this planet MATTI. So start throwing your body into it kid, tell us exactly how it is done. We can't even manage to have Cheney impeached, or our government to support the idea, that we must stop burning coal to produce electricity.
Anyone miss reading this, like Physics Teacher Guy obviously has. It is a very brief article.
http://whyplankton.com/
Okay PHYSICS TEACHER GUY, 'maybe' I read you wrong, but you certainly do come up with some strange comments. The way I read you, is there really isn't such a big problem with the global warming, which is causing the acidity of the oceans and the eventual loss of the phytoplankton. In your other post you stated we really don't need the phytoplankton to survive and they are only the foundation for life in the oceans.
That is false. 100% wrong. Why you would post such a thing is incredible and some will believe you. Those tiny ocean plants are the ONLY reason there is ANY life on this planet other than some deep sea life perhaps, and if we manage to kill off another 25% or so of our phytoplankton we won't have enough oxygen to survive, not just in the oceans but in our atmosphere.
You are down playing the seriousness of the problems and I can not see why anyone would wish to do so. You're claiming to be more knowledgable about it than the scientists who write the exact opposite of what you do. You are saying the possible frightening disasters are impossible.
Then you bring up petty arguments to show others that what some others wrote here are wrong. That is a typical method that trolls use to cause doubt and suspicion in the minds of others, where they may decide that we really don't have such a big problem and to not worry about it. Now if you don't think that way, __ don't write that way.
As to LA QUAJER'S posts, there is not a lot to say in response to that. Nothing in fact.
I admit I'm putting a few bees in a few bonnets, but I'm doing it to help seperate fears of things that won't happen from fears of things that will. We're on one hell of a precipice here; not least of our problems is that in the finite time and attention that we can grab to solve the real problems there are some red herrings that won't solve anything.
Kem provided a fine example of a needed innovation when he mentionned wind tower sails on ships. If you haven't heard of them, they're windmills modified to work on ocean going vessels, and can reduce the fuel consumption by 90% or more. They were prototyped in the 1980's and I think they were successful. Did nobody buy them? Have I just never seen one? I don't know, and not being in a position to purchase supertankers, I can't tell. But that's one way to help solve the problems.
Canals and Zepplins are two now obsolete technologies that could provide nearly carbon free mass transport, especially of bulk materials, but they are slow, and our economy has been modeled after the Japanese "just in time" shipping, without considering this model was created in a much smaller geographical area. Change our economic model and we can have a comparable amount of transportation done carbon free.
When I wrote that we don't need a techno-fix, I meant that most of the technologies that could help us out are here already IF we can find a way to get them adapted.
Since few of us are billionaires, what recourse do we have? Well, we still live in democracies, however corrupt some are becoming, and politicians still listen. Plus, even the corrupt ones are out for money, and some of these suggestions will save money. Should you have one of these sorts in your government, show them the better way is profitable and they'll bring the laws in line. Of course they'll manipulate it to make more profit, but that's the price we pay, right?
A quick example: leaving a computer, TV, etc on standby, where you can switch it on with a remote, burns about 5 Watts of power. Add up how many devices you have like this and you'll see that if we ban these devices, or just use power bars to switch the whole thing off when not in use, and we could shut down all the nuclear reactors in the USA or Canada (I haven't calculated other countries) because nearly 10% of the base power draw is for this sort of use - to not use things. So every year in class I showed this to students, every year I then passed copies of this study to their civics teacher, and we had a joint project to write our local and national politicians about the problem. Last year, the government starts sending out fliers alerting people to this, and asking them to shut off such devices or to use power bars. A small step but that's how we make change. Itsjustkarma wrote about microturbines. There lies another solution - microgeneration of power, as opposed to central, mega-sized projects.
As for the nasty comments, 65 million years ago is when the dinosaurs disappeared and mammals came to dominance; mammals, not microbes. I don't want to see what might survive this extinction if we don't change our ways. My comments here and on another thread tried (obviously unsuccessfully) to explain why some problems may not be lethal to all life, nor eternal in nature, however much they may be damaging to human life and civilization. As I ask global warming skeptics, what evidence presented would make you change your mind on topics that you think you know? And are your objections to the facts or projections really about what they say, or what you perceive the solutions to be?
Craig
If Winter has truly come for the Human story,
at least we can content ourselves with the thought,
that our Autumn was spent well,
and that, perhaps, in some unknowable time and place,
our wise thoughts, here given unto the Ether,
will be seen and acknowledged, that we will be remembered,
as Sniveling Cowards afraid of Death,
as Puffed-up Fools deluded about our Place,
or,
as Useless Jack-Asses satisfied with mere Discussion of Needed Action.
-
Who told (some of) you people Government was capable of Solving Problems?
You think something should be done, DO IT!
Some people here believe the current course will lead to the EXTINCTION of HOMO SAPIENS, yet they are willing to concede the Authority of Action to Law, Heirarchies, and State Power, all of which have now spent DECADES proving to anyone watching that they are at best Incapable and at worst Complicit?
COWARDS!
If you truly believe this is a Life or Death situation for the Human Race then, ACT NOW! Leave your computer keyboard, and throw yourself -BODILY- onto the cogs of whichever Vile Machine you identify as most responsible. Leave a note explaining your Actions and the Thoughts behind them.
What does it harm you to perish early if by your Sacrifice people might come to see the Importance of the Matter?
I'm not saying you need "shut up" if you are not willing to Act, but for Mercy's Sake at least pull the cork out of your ass and let some of the Self-Regard out!
I would write that I'm "sorry if I offend", but you folks seem smart enough to detect that I'd be Lying.
I will however, assure you that I won't be troubling you again -joined up just to get this bit out, y'see.
But remember, whatever you think of me, it is the Hard Truth, that the "Discusson Period" on Necessary Change -whether Industrial, Social, Political, or Economical - ended oh,...'round 'bout 30 years ago.
Gonna get nasty now, my advice, keep your "Time Wastin'" to a Minimum.
love, -matti
ITSJUSTKARMA
you are so right about eating less. there is so much food wasted it's a crying shame. especially when there are people starving from hunger. it makes me sick. i hardly ever go out to eat in restaurants. (only when really forced because of 'social' events.) i cannot really understand the concept of doing something in public that is one of our necessary needs to live. you wouldn't go for a shit in public would you?? and let's face it, we are all just 'waste' product machines with a modicum of intelligence. not much better than animals. and in fact i prefer animals. your idea to convert hawai'i into a role model is commendable and i hope you can bring it to fruition. if i was a few years younger i would take you up on your invitation. good luck.
Science isn't part if the solution, it's part of the problem. A big part.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=03cOM9r51Nw
Earlier this year when she was in my radio station, she was wearing an orange jumpsuit.
Such guts.
Let's lay off "PHYSICS TEACHER GUY".
I'v got this great screenplay that unfolds life on Venus, wonderful "waterbug" people that paddle around in liquid sulfur riverways among soaring cliffs, living in hotels with liquid-tub open elevators, living fudal lives like our Camalot times in a carbon dioxide atmosphere at 450 Celsius @ 1300psi.
With copper exoskeletons, they live in gentle, simple times exploiting farmers and shopkeeper with protection rackets like the LAPD, travailing great distances to impose their values and tax/extortion systems on people forced to keep homes in controlled neighborhoods- separate from the "means of production", making personal labor and food growing a "zoning" crime. This ultimate "colonalization" creates lives where 20-30% of everyone's day and a large part of everyones "wage" is spent in travel to and from useless, sterile "houses". This keeps "employment" separate from "loved ones". "Wealth" (everything not required to keep "the employed" alive and in their "jobs") is automatically directed upward through a vertical "education" differation, enforced by "beliefs" and a fraudulent "strategy of tension" propagated by a continuous theater of blood and distrust, fear instilled by the public display of violence against innocents by an "out of control" army/police/gang "problem".
All this "wasted energy" resulting in an unlivable world is only alluded too in my original 93 page version. The screenplay's "hook" was a 10-20 minute delay between JPL and events on Venus, which is now common place and has lost its entertainment value.
During the past year, over 150 lakes in the Arctic have literally disappeared. As the permafrost melts beneath the lakes the water seeps into the ground. It's like pulling a plug from a bathtub. The lakes no longer exist and their ecosystems disappeared.
Another result of global warming is walruses who will climb onto floating ice floes to rest, no longer find them as readily available, they often drown, as they cannot swim indefinently as seals do. Minor probles perhaps, but obvious clues to what global warming is doing to the planet.
Chief Joseph would have been proud to call you a friend D and G.
KEM,
I am no Chief Joseph, nor a medicine man or sacred teacher. I'm just an old ndn. Thank you for your kind words.
You are a damn troll PHYSICS TEACHER GUY. I just read the post you wrote on the other article here, Acidic ocean's will destroy 98% of the ocean's reefs.
You stated there that we don't need the phytoplnakton for our oxygen. You use a high fillutin name to make it apperar you are highly educated and know the score. You're not a nice person at all, you are a horrible distraction, either a gvernment paid troll or an overeducated idiot. You also attempted to downplay the obvious dangers of DU on another thread. ___Take a hike, change your code name, we now know you by your deeds.
I would love to meet you someday JUNGLEBOY, love your sense of humor and your wonderful spirit.
ITSJUSTKARMA, excellent, after readng part one, of Michner's Hawaii, that is how it should still be. When the Holier than thou Bible thumpers arrived, then the English cattle barons and the fantastic military, Hawaii became "civillized". It was finally so wonderful, it gained Statehood.
Now it's a damn mess with the same shitty stores we have in every community here on the mainland. Their beaches and waters are horribly polluted and the whales didn't even show up this year.
Read this link from a truly wonderful nurse, Linda Faye Kroll. Linda lives in Hawaii and is bravely sticking her neck out, fighting city hall and the government. She was just evicted from her apartment, she's now on a shit list there. ___ She will never give up.
http://www.protecthawaii.ws/page2.html
PHYSICS TEACHER GUY, You apologized twice there for sounding like a troll.
Apology accepted, for I do believe you are a nice person at heart. Your thinking appears to be a bit goofy and short sighted at times. Higher education and common sense are two seperate subjects. You also offer little as a solution, other than to detract from others opinions and write some nice words, which are actually meaningless, when considering the factual magnitude of a very serious problem.
It does not matter a great deal of what happened fifty million years ago at this point in our histroy. I also do believe that all life, save some microbal were exterminated at that time. So where your 50% of life died off comes from is unknown to me and to the scientists who study rocks, seashells and dig up old bones.
I disagree with you, we DO indeed need an immediate massive 'world wide' effort to attempt to correct this problem and if that does not occur, Earth will become a dead planet and could end up as another Mars. Another silent, orbiting globe of wind blown dust and rocks, with some frozen dirt covered ice caps. Or, it could be another Venus. Whatever it becomes, it will be our fault if it isn't a liveable water planet, a home for our future populations.
You say we don't need a 'techo' fix. I say we need an effective fix to first end burning coal, stopping the use of DU for anything and then shut down every nuck plant in the world. At the same time, enforce global laws that eliminate every single bit of man made pollution of our oceans and our atmosphere.
I would even go so far as to eleminate all aircraft flights, except those that are absolutely necessary for humanitarian purposes. We can learn to live at a slower pace, develop safe and reliable derigables that use solar power for their electrically driven propelloers. Everyone flys first class again too.
Initiate steps to develop and use those proven tower wind sails on large ocean going vessels and have all electric vehicles by 2050 __ if indeed we are still here by then. I can assure you, if we don't take immediate, firm and sensible action world wide, we won't be here by 2050 or perhaps even by 2020. So those who explain it happened before and the Earth survived, are correct. Does that help your kids and their kids? Perhaps if they had a voice, they may offer a different opinion.___ I sure do.
Try this experiment. Place a plastic garbage bag over yu rhead and snug it up around your neck. Then breath until you begin to pass out. That is what we and our children are facing. Only they won't be able to remove the plastic bag.
Aloha to all.
Sleep can sometimes be all the difference.
This is an extreme fruitful thread. I like that. Despite the fact that there seems to be a steady congregation of 'peeping toms'
people who just want to grasp a glimpse of the same truth that is denied by their drum beating leaders. Sorry things, all have to die too.
Which guides me to an important aspect of our attempt to bring light into the dark house and the black holes inside the heads of the Repooplican pa'ty members. Even if it may be a waste of time.
Let me give You some crutches here on the world view that may bring peace to You and Your loved ones.
Like a poster mentioned earlier, to understand live You need to take a very close look at it.
Scientists were 'stunned' when they discovered that there is an abundance of life around submarine volcanic vents. After having explored and exploited this planet, after having possibly been on the moon, countless space probes and centuries at the ocular of ever more sophisticated telescopes, we finally found life. The origin of it. What happens down there at the bottom
of the ocean at an atmospheric pressure that constitutes the exact opposite of the 'emptiness' of open space, reflects the
whole principle of life.
Words like interdependence are not liberally spread by me to appear educated. Interdependence is the principle that makes our Universe what is has become and what it will turn into. Interdependence is the 'sub'- principle of Karma and for all that have the slightest difficulty with a Buddhist/Sanscrit word, Karma is nothing else than the Law of Attraction. What might sound confusing, given the fact that in the western world the belief survives, Karma equals punishment or reward. Not the case. Karma has no value in itself as it is a 'Force', overarching gravity, centrifugal forces, cell division and everything else that comes to mind, thinking about the 'invisible' forces that made us happen.
Human mankind is just another 'product' of the Karmic sub principle of life. The truth is, You will have a hard time to extinct it.
Actually there is no such thing. Humans did effectively and with known results change the face of the world. That doesn't make them 'God' like as much as they crave to be more than the vermin, coming from mud.
The rift in understanding where in the Universe OUR place is divides the spiritual advanced people from the religious people, who are subscribed to 'STAY THE COURSE ', meaning nothing else than running into death and unimaginable suffering.
Where is the Karma here?
My own understanding goes like this:
Evolution (Karma) follows the path of 'success' (which has nothing to do with success), but with following the red thread Karma constitutes. By evolving You follow a path of 'spiritual growth', leading You ever more forward into the instant gratifications of Your spiritual level You attained so far.
Roaches for example will survive whatever happens to this planet. They are the real leaders of this world. Not in terms of
'spiritual intelligence', more by giving us an example of the perfect 'job' Karma/Evolution really does.
No matter what cosmic 'tragedy' might wait for Our Mother Earth, roaches will be there, riding it out on a piece of rock through space. A life form that developed into a radiation resistant species tells You a lot about who will rule when we are gone.
As painful as the realization is, we are gone. We are finished as complex life form. Unless we degenerate even more and align the repooplican/reptilian brain with a small ape like being that adapts to live underground, living of roaches, a plentiful source of protein...
Don't worry my beloved Common Dreamers. The deal was done long, long time ago. Karma 'gave' us a planet to grow spiritually with the known results.
Yet I am not a 'Giver-Upper' (credit to Jerry Seinfeld) but aligned to my own Sub-Karma, subordinated to the bigger picture.
As long as there is enough oxygen, water and everything else my body or better my 'Six-Sense-Machine' (credit to the Buddho),
will keep on going forward to the very moment in which I will transform into some sort of 'fertilizer'.
Since my early childhood I had reoccurring dreams that always showed the earth in distress, with countless dreams of 'The Big One' a tsunami so huge that you will meet Your master as soon as You see it. There is no running away, which is in turn symptomatic for humans. Running away. The reptilian way.
The left thing to do is to get up, stand up and look the danger left in the face.
Not wanting to give my being extra recognition, but there are things about me that are quite different. I have an inexplainable skilled mind when it comes to solving problems. It doesn't matter how small or how big the problem is, the solution is just there, immediately, without thinking. I know we could save this planet left now. With combined effort we can overcome the
biggest obstacle for human mankind's ascent towards a bush-spirit free world.
Self sufficiency is not a science fiction. We don't have to eat ourselves to survive, we have to stop eating. As much as we can.
I am not asking You to starve, but to realize that the nice bbq with all those tons of food is extremely counterproductive for our survival. What about a 'Obesity Tax'? If You cannot prove that Your obesity is the result of any disease, Your in for some extra tax, because those burger 'kings' are fire to the tree we are sitting on.
Living in Hawai'i it becomes even more apparent, that our solution has of course to do with the way the planet is governed.
Speaking of Hawai'i, an Island chain that would not need to import a single freaking slice of bread over 2500 miles, no fuel,
no electricity, nothing. It all grows here. It could. Hawai'i is not only a very special place to get married, no, Hawai'i is the speartip of self sufficiency. The only reason, that it is more important to go to walfart and spend all Your low wage income for stuff that is either toxic or falls apart before easter, lies within our state legislature.
RECALL LINGLE, try here and lock her up for the rest of her life. She is responsible for the demise of Hawai'i, rather using the military to make sure that their troop transporter the super ferry can operated unharmed by those pesky activists that are complaining about everything anyways. Tell me how the super ferry will break for a Whale Mother that has her baby with her and there comes the super ferry with 45 Knots.
Not only that. Lingle is a criminal subject as much as her lover bush. To squander millions of dollars of TAXPAYER'S money, for an elite that is so dumb (Karma), to believe they can scam away without resistance.
As much as I am against capital punishment, the exception are politrickers like lingle et al.
Why is it possible to operate a ferry line between Italy and Elba? Between France and Corsica? England and France? Why is it so important to spend millions on the design of something that does not belong into Hawai'ian waters in the first place?
We are foremost in deep shit because power corrupts and more power corrupts more.
Hawai'i is a volcanic island chain. On every Island You have slopes. That's part of the volcanic feature.
When I grew up in Bavaria we had many field trips to a place in the Alps called Kochelsee (Lake Kochel), located in a natural occurring 'Hydro Plant Paradise'. A smaller Lake approximately 200 meters above the larger, lower lake, invited German Engineers to build a High pressure hydro power plant as early as 1918. It still works. (http://www.panoramio.com/photo/1892338)
With modern 'micro-hydro-turbines' that are available, one can use the same principle here and everywhere. Catchment tanks on top and at the bottom of the hill and You let the water run down in the night, when there is no sun to energize Your solar
panels. There are no problems, there are only solutions.
First we have to get rid of the biggest obstacles of a bright future. First we need to lock away and treat people like lingle, bush, cheney et al. And if they can't be fixed, I am afraid we have to throw them away.
I invite everybody who is serious in saving the world to come here to Hawai'i and convert Hawai'i as a role model for other areas into a completely self sufficient system. I have enough space.
Hopefully this piece makes still sense...
Like that is going to happen any time soon! Have you been to the midwest! Where is the electric/hyperdimentional energy engine conversion kit going to come from for the tractor? I'll give you four years! FOUR!
Please, people, lets keep this problem in perspective. This isn't the first time for this event, you know. Mass volcanism (eg. the eruption of the Deccan traps about 65 million years ago) has done similar damage to the oceans, and they recovered. Mind you, recovery took a million years, and when this has happened before it's cost the Earth more than half of its species - so if you think I'm trolling and saying this isn't a problem, I'm not. But there's a big difference this time.
I know that for some of us, our faith in humanity and human wisdom has been eroded. Understandably so. But if, somehow, something happens to concentrate the attentions of the world's people on a crisis like this we can reverse it. Kind of like the "light side" of the Shock Doctrine (thank you, Naomi Klein). Now I don't know what it would take - the disintigration of the Great Barrier Reef in a typhoon, maybe - but say for a second that we did have everyone's attention.
The oceanic acidification is a result of a higher concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere. CO2 enters the water faster than it leaves it, and forms carbonic acid when it dissolves in the water. You can see how deep this acidification is from survey data. But since the real studies to stop global warming call for a 100% reduction by 2050 (sadly, that's not a typo, just a fact that isn't too widely bandied around for fear that nobody will listen to anything else you say)then we can assume that a sufficiently frightened population would achieve that goal. And once again, my apologies if I'm coming off like a reverse neo-con here.
After we stabilize CO2 emissions, the ocean will reach a new, more acidic equilibrium . If we let trees grow and remove CO2 from the atmosphere, we can lower CO2 concentration in the air and the ocean will de-acidify, as the CO2 in the carbonic acid will migrate to the lower concentrations in the atmosphere.
Unlike any past time, this process is controlled by humanity - and whereas we can't reverse volcanic eruptions, we can and will reverse our emissions. The question is, will it be quick, "voluntary", and painful - or will it be driven by the end of technological civilization and probably humanity?
My instinct tells me that while life may be common, conciousness isn't, and humans do offer something valuable to the universe - which perhaps is trying to figure out how to generate a non-self-destructive conciousness on the highest level possible.
I think the best analogy is that we may be down, but we're not out yet. The solutions do exist. We don't need a techno-fix or WWIII. We do need to realize that a painful solution is needed and will be better than the even more painful self-correction that Gaia will mete out on us.
Craig
So its time to buy or make snowshoes and fix the canoe. Prep ourselves out for the "big one". I think we don't have much of a choice other than end up like the humans in the movie terminator. I live in a house that cannot survive the cold if it gets deep like in the movie 'the day after tomorrow'. I'm sad already. I have pets that are almost extinct in the wild and I will be sad to see them go, as to return them to the wild is a death sentence. Rescues, all of them, exotics. Its a shame that we didn't start work on this global warming a long time ago. I feel like its the same story we were talking about 15yrs ago. The end of the Mayan calendar, Nostradamus and the likes of all the fairytale planetary death predictions. It will be fun to watch even if we don't all make it past the rising tides of change. Political warfare will not change this planets outcome as we have bought into it for too long. Being blinded by our own greed and not recognizing it for what it is. The time has come to prepare.
Kem- I have read your posts for a long time and I'm jealous of what you have going on and the life you have built for you and those around you. From your posts I feel you have been a good example. (I'm going to copy some of your ideas like the water features, filters and passive heaters, if I get the chance! I have heard they work great.) Keep on keeping on! Sorry I have a bad sense of humor that is easy to misconstrue. Its the curse/blessing, "May you live in interesting times."
The "Book of Man" is the old copy, the new book in waiting is the "Book of Woman", all us guys have been waiting for it! I hear it starts off where man f#cked everything all up, and women, being more responsible, had to pick up after them.....again.
It is arrogant to think that any species could "destroy the planet". We are certainly able to eradicate life (our life) but afterwards time will pass and the world will recover.
In the history of this planet, "man" has been around for a very short period of time. We have proven ourselves to be parasites to the planet. Our nature is self-destructive. We claim to have evolved but in reality we've just mutated into a hairless parasite.
We will continue to argue, blame, and consume until we have made the world a place we can no longer survive in. At that point the "Book Of Man" will reach it's final chapter.
BR001, I appreciated your post, you are both informed and fun too. We need a bit of humor every day.
While we may be looking at mammalian extinction on planet earth, there is some proof that life goes on. Look at the deep sea vents with a proliferation of life that uses an entirely different life support system in place of the CNO cycle. When the vents close, the life in those areas dies off, but they have found similar systems in vents around the globe. Perhaps, in a few million years, that life might evolve to exist on the surface of our devastated planet, which would be rather similar to the current conditions in the deep except for pressure.
Makes me wonder if "lifeless" Venus might have similar life forms evolving and growing in its, to us, forbidding ecology.
It will be sad to see all that we have achieved in art and literature and philosophy disappear, and tragic that we will have brought about the demise of all the beauty and diversity of life on earth, as we know it, but remember, man has been on the earth for only the equivalent of the flicker of an eyelash in a long life. Eternity is a long time, and many experiments may have come to fruition and passed away, with many more to come. It may be that, in the long run, we only have relevance to ourselves, not the universe at large.
Solyent Green would be a good movie to check out again. It seems to have been rather prescient. I like that word, prescient.
DOOM AND GLOOM, your eloquence reminds me of Chief Joseph of the Nez Pierce. A truly wonderful man.
Hi gang, slept like a brick and see the sun rose again, was able to walk to the bathroom nd look in the mirror.__ Damn.__ Well, another day and another $20 in debt to China, paying interest on near ten trillion dollars.
I didn't wish to state what I thought about those crazy posts PACMAN, I've been allowing these trolls to get to me lately and so toned it down as much as possible. I am delighted you came on and showed em up. You give me kudos, but you are as good as they come, as are almost everyone who posts here at CD. Don't ya just love COCO.
You know, people who attempt to screw up a thread are as guilty as our corrupt leaders, no morality whatsoever and that is precicely why the planet is in bad shape, greed combined with stuidity = disaster.
Gosh, I truly do love you people.
KEM, Doom n Gloom are differing parts of the same personality, you guessed it. I believe that it is in the balance of light and dark, good and evil, that we find the path to efficient human progress. If one or the other becomes dominant then problems arise as the opposite tries to restore balance. Human progress becomes inefficient.
I enjoy the comments of Itsjustkarma and Jan Steinman because they seem to have a level of consciousness that transcends science. Science is a tool and should not be elevated to a world view as it has been by Western societies. Science in balance can assist human progress and out of balance can destroy humanity. The role of Spirit in keeping Science in balance is critical. Itsjustkarms referenced the work, What the Bleep Do We Know. That work suggests that science and spirit have a nexus. This is something that those who live a life of Spriit, "Traditional Indigenous Peoples," understand that modern Western Civilizations do not. Spirit is not something that can be learned from books, or learned in a short time, like a college education. Our People believe that it takes seven lifetimes to know Spirit.
Therefore I would strongly recommend ending the continuing quiet genocide against Indigenous Peoples. I believe that to reestablish a workable balance, Indigenous Peoples need to be elevated to a place of importance and respect. Those sacred teachers among us who have not sacrificed their traditional sacred ways for Christianity, should be immediately consulted and asked to share their wisdom and
assistance in the healing of the Earth Mother. The application of Spirit both by itself and in a steering of Science can have a strong cleansing and healing effect on the Earth and all things. To do otherwise is to continue down the path of human destruction brought on by Science alone. What you do not understand and do not respect, can and will kill you. It is Spirit that will bring about a new balance in the shorter term. The Earth Mother will bring it about in the long term, probably mostly absent human existence. A wisdom path has been laid before you and a door has been opened if people choose to walk it.
Here's one solution that's good for the planet, good for the oceans and the whales, good for your health, and will make you feel better in other ways as you become part of the solution and not the problem:
Eco-Eating: Eating as if the Earth Matters
http://www.brook.com/veg
THEWONDERINGYOU
how kind to think of laminating our comments for future generations. but i think you'll have to do more than that - how about etching it in stone? then you can add a few of your own commandments and hope someone with moral fibre will find it and adhere to it. you could start with commandment number 1: thou shalt not elect morons as leaders. i'm sure KEM can come up some more for you.....KEM?
This has been some thread. I think the thing is, the readers and those who comment realize how dire the situation is. I'm sure most of us are doing what we can in our personal lifes. Also, I think it's the reason we spend so much time examining politics.
This thread freakin' rocks! Links, info, opinion, conjecture, poetry...I'm gonna bookmark this article. No, better yet, I oughta print it and laminate it so future generations will know that the bell curve didn't disappoint: some of us were paying attention!
I guess that means you're immortal, KEM. Sorry, man, but it's better than the ignomy of being caught in a FISA dragnet, ain't it? Not that you're safe, mind you...
Oh...and, RE: Ocean pH? Yeah...we're screwed. The presence of mind and financial incentive and political will and seconds-ticking-on-a-clock (or rather, lack thereof) are probably going to guarantee that...um...at least in the forseeable future (oh, say, a few hundred years) we're pretty much...forked.
Say, did you catch this in the article? "As the oceans' deepest waters circulate around the globe, they eventually arrive in the North Pacific, where they rise near the surface before plunging deep again to continue their global journey. When the water arrives in the North Pacific, it's already acidic from the carbon produced by decaying organic material during its 1,000-year journey from the North Atlantic through the Indian Ocean and across the Pacific, Feely said."
A thousand years? Is that correct? Can anyone say "tip-of-the-iceberg?"
Kem:
I wasn't mocking global warming. This string was getting so deadly serious, I couldn't resist passing on my old "wind" story.
We need some combination of resource conservation to the point of sacrificing much of our materialistic standard of living and using technology that is available now. To me, the technology available now is nuclear power replacing fossil fuel electric generation. If fertilizing the blue water ocean to promote phytoplanton growth and reduce CO2 is feasible, it should be done.
For most people, global warming is still an occasional piece in the papers, on the TV news or AOL homepage... Our political leadership chooses not to believe anything serious is happening. I have seen some of the FOX mockery of some British protestors (made them look like "Trekkies") and demonization of serious thinkers like James Hansen. We really have a problem.
BTW EVERYONE
two other pieces of info that i read recently: wild salmon are suffering from disease/parasites because of the salmon farms infecting them. and in ireland fish died on a fish farm that was invaded by a hoard of jellyfish. the jellyfish shouldn't have been in that sea apparently and they don't know why or how they were there. so it's like bird flu: keep fish packed together like 'sardines' (excuse the pun) and they become diseased and pass it on to the wild ones. and mother nature is getting her revenge on all the greedy corporations. and whatever the reasons for all this disruption we have to face facts: SOMETHING IS RADICALLY WRONG WITH OUR PLANET.
My twin sister just e-mailed me yesterday:
""you believe in global warming? I've heard the scientists say no - it is a natural course of things and not warming""
After i spent six years off the grid with PV cells and car batteries & wind pumped water, spent two and ahalf years and all my money in the early 1990s building an electric car factory, two years designing new solutions to low-impact public transportation, 10 years "homeless" on buses and trains, dumsterdiving to save (1 calorie in your mouth burned 10 petroleum to get it there) and bought a 25 year old bio-deisel MB.
The fastest change that might save us is changing our head.
I have a United Nations Association publication on the desk here that argues a Malthus solution to overpopulation BECAUSE OF THE DANGER OF INCREASING LEVELS OF CO2 IN THE EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE, Library of Congress no.73-89704, "first printing, May, 1969".
I finely gave up trying to teach ANY ONE to not
"wash" the dishes here in this Meeting house without the hot water RUNNING the whole time...6 years of attempts.. tore the waste pipes out and put in a plastic bucket, no
change in behavior at all, just lots of ranker and snarls. "What about AIDS, you fool..."
I finely disconnected the new water heater, and we
rinse dishes in a big pot of boiling water from the
stove...works great. Saves a ton of water and NGas.
See KEM,
I posted: "Without the raw science that bush and the religious wackos detest, we would have no clue how fast we are racing off a cliff."
[I was attacking the Neocon revulsion for science, so Abram here is retaliating by posting up the mid section of a science article without the Introduction part of the article and cutting off the summary of the article. Also not disclosing the source of his plagiarism. He's trying to say: If you can't distill down this non-sensical equation, science is worthless to you.
Pretty pathetic posting really, the Oil company should get a refund for that post.
You KEM, are infinitely more credible, because you always provide a link to your position. And your positions are from a reasonable man, who cares about humanity, not the product of an empty corporate stooge.
Kem,
I understand it all right. It's a cut-and-paste smokescreen. It's designed to create doubt about the danger of above freezing temperature-induced methane release. It's post ignored the permafrost thawing issue completely and went in circles about whether or not Methane was released from the ocean floor during the end of the last ice age.
Sounds to me like somebody doesn't want you talking about this. Remember the mysterious Mark Abram? He disappeared when I exposed him as a corporate paid hack. Like I said before, this is a typical NeoCON ploy: "Climate change is normal; just look at these studies funded by the oil industry."
Hi Mark. Sorry to blow your cover bucko.
That's what I think.
Thank you LA QUAKER. __ Now I can sleep better tonight.
I apologize for my stupidity, or ignrance I suppose I should say, but I learned absolutely nothing from those three posts after Pacplayers and the one from Jan Steinman. They went completely over my head.
Let us presume for this discussions sake, that the learned scientists are totally incorrect about the possible methane gas release from the arctic melt. If so, there is one problem humanity does not have to worry about.
However, barrng methane gas escaping into our atmosphere, or kids setting their farts afire, what do we know for certain, about the acidity of the oceans, which this article addresses? We know this, our ocean's life are in trouble and the foundation of ALL life on this water planet, begins and is totally dependant upon the microscopoic plant life named phytoplankton. If that plant life continues to dwindle, we won't be able to breathe. That is a fact which is undeniable by any and all who have any common sense and any degree of intelligence. A normal five year old child would understand.
Since that is so, and it is clearly obvious that the phytoplankton, and all other life forms in our oceans are sick and dwindling, from the reefs up to the blue whales. We do have a rather serious problem, the clues of such are clearly obvious and it does not require a geologist, or a scientist, or a wizard to explain it.
Individual fear factor has absolutly nothng to do with those facts. How any may express their concerns, is up to their internal fortitude, their spiritual beliefs and their personalities. If a person is aware that their children are all going to die within perhaps a few short years, if they are mentally stable, they will have fear. If not, they aren't very human.
Now if any wish to argue that point with me, or what I have posted here concerning the importance of that germmlike ocean plant, save the arguments for the scientists who have explained how important the phytoplankton are for life on this planet and the fact they are dying off. It is not my personal opinion. With that said, I so choose to believe what is published, concerning both the phytoplankton and the release of methane gas from the Arctic. I also believe it is a major world wide problem and it must be addressed by all of the nations leaders and done so immediately. Time is not something that should be wasted, when your ass is in the wringer and mother nature is about to turn the crank.
True words hardtruth. Biologists have long debated man's capacity to civilize before destroying himself. The answer seems to be no. Now it seems only a matter of when.
There are those among us who understand the meaning and power of Spirit. Spirit is a curative path. Science has closed the minds of far too many people to Spirit and it's potential if understood properly. It therefore seems remote that a change could be made in time. It looks like it's time for us to enter a new plane of existence. Treasure each day while they last.
Hi there BR-001. I only used that WW-2 illustration to remind us of what was well proven, __ of what can be accomplished in a hurry and done quite well if a government wishes to initiate a massive program for whatever reason.
I do believe there is very good reason to attempt to reverse the trend of killing our oceans, at least stop it and hope we haven't already gone over the brink. We do little or nothing, 'study' the problem and the game is over; we must try, but I realize it is wishful thinking, to expect the world leaders to have a consesus an ddo anything about the most serious problem facing mankind. __ And wemonkind. Don't ever forget the gals, truly our most important asset.
Hi JUNGLEBOY, ya got me there, so guess we are both safe enough, no need for aumlets. What else do I believe? I believe any who mock global warming or climate change are idiots. It's as real as lighting a match in front of a fart. ___KABOOM!
Kem:
WWII and liberty ships! Liberty nukes! 15, even 20 per year until we can shut down all the fossil plants! Then build the new generation that burn DU. Then hydrogen and electric rail... An all electic/hydrogen economy.
I saw a methane explosion once. Kid farted on a lit match. Almost burnt the cabin down.
There is something wrong here. Yes, very low pH caused by CO2 dissolved in ocean water should harm phytoplankton (dissolves/prevents the shells?), but if the phytoplankton is doing its job, the CO2 should be converted to biomass and calcium carbonate before the pH gets that low. Moderate additional CO2 should make phytoplankton grow faster.
The answer might be that phytoplankton requires iron and nitrates to grow, but the ocean nutrient content drops off away from coastlines. Much CO2 is absorbed in nutrient poor areas of the ocean and is concentrating before the little buggers can get to it, and then the world wide currents are delivering the acidic water where it can damage the natural cycle. As atmospheric CO2 increases, this imbalance will obviously get worse.
Some scientists (and carbon credit entrepreneurs) have created phytoplankton blooms by fertilizing small areas of open ocean with iron. The acidiity of the oceans could be controlled by managing this process. It could be a future mission of the NOAA. Balance would be important so "dead zones" aren't created by out of control growth. There would even be an opportunity to increase how much CO2 the oceans absorb, but much carbon taken up by phytoplankton is turned back into CO2 by consumers in the food web. Just a little CaCO3 from the shells falls to the bottom.
Maybe there is chance this problem can be managed with ocean fertilization, but fossil fuel CO2 emissions still need to be reduced to the point where the biosphere can absorb them.
Oh good! I was worried about you, Kem!
Dont you know "climate change" is a repug term used to lessen the gravity of the situation?
"For the present, Mars appears to be a dead world. I do believe, it once was a livable water planet, a sister planet of Earth."
And what else do you believe....my knee hurts now.
You will always be safe Jungleboy. God has mercy on idiots.
If none of you have read the book "Under a Green Sky" by Peter Ward I highly suggest you either get it at the library or buy it and pass it around.
Many have you have touched on the gravity of the situation we are in but this book will explain it to you how grave the danger (particularly with the most recent upgrading of the rapidity of the changes taking place.
This book talks about carbon, methane, isotopes, the Permian extinction but the most revaling part of the book is the tie in to the acidity of the ocean and how it becomes anoxic and why and what that will do. The worst part is that after reading the book you will then realize that everything the Climatologists are saying the rocks have also been saying and that the paleontologists (of which Ward is one) have been studying and now have concrete proof of what seems to have occured in past extinctions is taking place now.
And to beat all, the Permian apparently did not take millenia to occur. In fact it looks like it came on rather rapidly.
Somewhat hard to read but stick it out to the end. You will realize why he titles the book "Under a Green sky".. Then you will want to do whatever you possibly can to stop the runaway train we are all riding on.
I loved that hyperdimensional energy link! That is cool! The vesuvius 'like' lake disaster with gas killing 1800 people in the middle of the night and last week nasa now believes in energy ropes that connect the earth and sun along with ion plumes! Cripes what will these shy-entists think of next! I'll bet its like climate change or some crock!(oops it 'global warming' on CD) Dang if only I had my pyramid amulet I'd be safe!
Actually, its better than string theory. It has more mystery and better pics!
Thanks Coco
"www.sveurop.org go to 'general articles' on the left panel then click on 'protective measures' 'nyos degassing project'. you'll read all about and see pictures of the methane gas explosion in the lake that killed 1800 people and animals in a 25 mile radius. not a pretty sight."
ThanksThomas!
http://www.enterprisemission.com/_articles/05-14-2004_Interplanetary_Part_1/Interplanetary_1.htm
Yesterday a blogger who lives in Hawaii, wrote that every year they could set their watches on when the whales returned. This year, the whales didn't return. ___ She wondered if they were in trouble?
Indeed they are. Several whale specie eat only the microscopic plankton. Whales can live for over a hundred years, ___ if someone doesn't stick a harpoon in them. The largest fish living in our oceans is the whale shark, which live 150 years, eating only plankton.
The whales are not the canaries of the oceans, they are at the very top of the food chain. The plankton and phytoplankton are the canaries and they are in serious trouble, their numbers are rapidly dropping off. They can protect themselves from the ultrviolet rays from the sun, but they cannot protect themselves from man made poisons. We poison them and they don't live long enough to reproduce, they only live for a day or two as it is. They die off, ___ we die off.
For those who believe Earth will eventually survive, that rather pleasant thought does not help my children or grandchildren or any others. So to give up ain't fair to them and it damn sure ain't right.
In addition, when the planet's oxygen is gone and the atmosphere is filled with methane gas, the end result could easily be another Mars. Dead or alive? For the present, Mars appears to be a dead world. I do believe, it once was a livable water planet, a sister planet of Earth. It may be once again too, two dead sisters. There's a legacy Bush can accept.
Nothing is irreversible. The planet has had mass extinctions in the past, and is on the verge of another. Thousands of years of acidic seas are but a brief moment in in time. This earth a tiny dot in vast space. The tipping point has passed. We did not listen to our own stories and myths which foretold the consequences of man's over-reach. The hubris and greed we despise in others are in our own hearts as well. We will go on as we always have. We will follow in the footsteps of the people of Rapa Nui. At some point someone cut down the last tree on that island knowing fully it was the last, and knowing what that meant.
I have heard that when the first boats from Europe came to the east coast of North America the quantities of fish would slow the boats down. We used drag nets to rip up the ocean floor to take everything for ourselves. Before the collapse of the cod fishery off Newfoundland, the Canadian government was sending in icebreakers to keep the fishery going year round. Soon all the fish will be gone, and the polar bears, and so many other species. I dont think any scientist can predict the scope of the damage we have done. Life came back after past extictions, and will probably come back again despite man's best efforts. Nature despises a void, though I guess it is possible that the earth will become like Venus.
Anyway, we are coming to the end of an era. Interesting times ahead...
Peace and Love.
I like your thoughts there PETER, but when that methane gas escapes into the atmosphere, there won't be 3,000, 300, 30 or even 3 left.
Well, yes there will be three or so, I forgot the space station.
If you were serious, I believe you do not understand the problem PAULK. The coral reefs are made by living sea creatures, and we are killing all of them. Man made reefs would not do the trick, the plankton won't breed in such.
If we are going to get romantic, I'd prefer a BJ Heavyrunner.
"God bless America"
"Place your head firmly between your knees and kiss you ass goodbye."
There is only ONE possible solution if humanity is to survive, if all life on this planet other than microbal is to survive.
All of the world's leaders must admit there is a soon to be world wide disaster. Then they must agree to work together to attempt to avert it. Such would require a MASSIVE 'world-wide' effort, to first establish priorities, then plan and develop methods to eleminate burning coal, stop eradicating forests and stop every single bit of pollution of our lands and our oceans. That would include outlawing using DU in weaponry of course.
Truly clean energy for the entire world's populations MUST be the first step, it 'could' be done within three years or less. When Japan and Germany declared war on the United States, we immediately mobilized and several major projects began and were fully completed within from one to four years.
Among those were the Manhatten project, the Big inch pipeline from Texas to New Jersey, the Alcon highway and building over 300,000 military aircraft and thousands of ships, tanks, trucks and cannon. We did it and we didn't go hungry, there were millions of jobs. We have the money, what we have wasted in Iraq alone this last year would be suffecient.
We have had other very expensive and major projects since WW2. Such as the Interstate highway system, the Chesepeake Bay tunnel/bridge, The largest suspension bridge in the world, the NASA Apollo moon missions and the space shuttle, unmanned missions to Mars and so on. Prior to WW2 we had the Panama Canal, Boulder dam, the penna turnpike, etc. When there is a will, there is a way and the money is always there. Whatever is built for clean energy, will be profitable for those who fund it.
We as a human race have that option. Or, we can let the world go away.
Yes, one more reason to STOP burning.
Its an emergency, but the Profit before Sustainability crowd will just blindly add it to the list of stuff to ignore.
WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Are coral reefs the world's prime carbon sink? If so, we must expand them.
At the top, someone asked, "Is there any good news?" Well sort of....If the world is ninety-nine percent destroyed, you can bet your last can of pork and beans that the last remnants of political and economic infrastructre will have been long gone.
The good news is that maybe the last 3000 humans left on the planet will remember just who did this to the other billions and never create another greedy capitalist society that would only repeat the same stupid crimes. Please note that I didn't say 'mistakes'. This greedy culture of capitalism was created intentionally by a few scam artists who conned their neighbors on the west to attack their neighbors in the east so that a few might be enriched at the expense of EVERYONE ELSE.
It's a devil's dance that we do today. How fast can you dance?
Amazing
Mars is looking better and better.
THERE IS NO REASON TO BECOME DEPRESSED WHEN READING ABOUT THE AILING LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS OF PLANET EARTH. THESE THINGS ARE OBVIOUSLY GOING TO HAPPEN, LOOK AT HOW MUCH WE ARE ALL TAKING! THESE FACTS ARE A CALL TO ACTION. WE MUST CHOOSE: GIVE UP OUR UNJUSTLY PRIVILEGED WAYS NOW OR HAVE THE UNCEREMONIOUS STRIPPED AWAY LATER. i suggest you begin training now. WHAT SHOULD YOU DO?
BE THE CRAZY ASS RIDING YOUR BIKE EVERY DAY IN THE RAIN WITH YOUR SOAKED GEAR AND YOUR SWEATY MUSCLES AND ACTIVATED HEART VALVES! CONQUER YOUR LAZINESS, I PROMISE YOU A LONGER AND MORE RELAXED LIFE!
BE THE INSANE HEALTH NUT WHO REFUSES TO GO OUT TO EAT NO MATTER THE SOCIAL PRESSURE, THE CONSCIOUS CONSUMER OF EARTHY GARDEN VARIETY VEGGIES AND LOCAL AS POSSIBLE CUISINE! EACH BITE IS A PRAYER. A VOTE FOR THE KIND OF AGRICULTURE YOU WANT TO BECOME MAINSTREAM. SAVE UP ALL YOUR STARBUCKS MONEY AND BUY ORGANIC TEA!
BE THE RAG-TAG WEARER OF OUTDATED THRIFT SHOP FASHIONS AND SPOTTED, WORN, MUDDY SHOES EVEN AS YOUR PEERS SECRETLY DISCOUNT YOUR SANITY ON ACCOUNT OF YOUR FAILURE TO KEEP UP-TO-DATE.
DON'T BE AFRAID TO GIVE UP SOME OF YOUR MATERIAL PRIVILEGE! YOU WILL RECEIVE MORE THE DUE COMPENSATION IN CLARITY OF THOUGHT AND STRENGTH OF SOUL.
BECOME THE CANTANKEROUS MINSTREL OF SIMPLICITY WHO HAS WANTED THAT VITA MIXER JUICER FOR FREAKIN' YEARS BUT REFUSES TO PURCHASE ONE UNTIL IT POPS UP USED.
DO NOT WATCH TELEVISION!!!! THERE IS TOO MUCH IMPORTANT WORK TO BE DONE.
DO NOT SUPPORT INDUSTRY THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH IN ANY WAY. THIS MEANS NO MORE CHEAP GOODS, CLOTHES, CELL-PHONES, COMPUTERS. THERE IS PLENTY OF THIS TRASHY STUFF USED. LEARN TO IMPROVISE!
STOP TALKING ABOUT THE REVOLUTION AND BECOME IT!
STOP WAITING IN APATHY FOR AL GORE TO SAVE YOUR ASS. IF EVERYONE LIVED LIKE GORE THE CATACLYSM WOULD HAVE ALREADY BEGUN!
NEVER, EVER, EVER, SAY YOU ARE JUST ONE PERSON. SO WHAT!?! WHAT THE HELL ELSE WOULD YOUR BE!! USE YOUR INFLUENCE AS ONE PERSON TO PUSH FORTH THE NEXT BIRTH. BIRTH IS NOT EASY. IT WILL HURT. YOUR HEAD WILL BE SQUEEZED UNTIL YOUR SKULL FEELS LIKE IT WILL CRACK.
WITH LUCK WE WILL SURVIVE TO EVOLVE FURTHER.
I would like to add that maybe those early religions that worshiped mother earth got it right.
I hadn't before known about oceanic acidity. An I had not known about oxygen depletion in the atmosphere.
But I had known about mercury poisoning of the ocean. It is a fixed size ocean, and it is being poisoned. That alone has the capacity to destroy the ocean. Mercury and lead are elements. There is no chemical there that can break down. We cannot undo the dumping of these toxins into the ocean. We are already at the point where fish are dangerous to eat.
Similarly, I was aware of atmospheric poisoning. Again that is more slow, but eventually quite terrible.
I was aware of soil acidification on a vast worldwide scale, due to artificial fertilizers. I was aware of the acidity of rain caused by industry that destroys forests.
The wrongness, the ecological imbalance dates was caused by the industrial revolution. Basically, in order to preserve the planet, we would have to s wind back the clock 200 years. The planet CAN support primitive life indefinitely, regardless whether peacefull or barbaric. But the planet CANNOT a combination of industrial society and capitalism. Therefore much that we valued is a problem. Much that you thought right is wrong.
And we simply CANNOT stop or change our behaviour. It is something that we cannot do, because any country that closes down industry loses. The country that stops industry gets to have other country invaded, occupied and exploited, in much the same way as the American Indians or the Australian Aborigines or the Africans did. The countries that continued their industry would just simply expand their operations and colonize yet again those who stopped their industry. Therefore we simply cannot stop. We are doomed to walk this road that leads to destruction of the planet. This is our natural destiny.
Yes, I am a absolute merchant of doom and gloom, and have been so for about two decades. Because I think the planet is stuffed!!
Peak oil is not a problem. If the oil flow would stop NOW it might help save the planet, by stopping industry and cars, since we are unable to stop ourselves. But alas, we are only half way through the worlds oil, and we have only started on the world's coal. In the end, the same can be said of catastrophic climate change, if it happened soon enough to prevent atmospheric and oceanic poisoning. A bloody great meteor that hit our planet and devastated human life might also cause the required population reduction needed to save the planet. Perhaps a nuclear holocaust will save the planet!
Depressed? There is NO word to describe my feelings as I read this article. This is truly the end for life on this planet. This is irreversible. We, who caused this problem in the first place, are going to pay for it with the end of life on this planet.
I know scientists care. I know that the average person on the street cares. But scientists and average people have no power and can't do what needs to be done to effect change, if such change was even possible at this point.
When you have the US, the most powerful country (at the moment on Earth) along with China and any other up-and-coming industrial country refusing to make the necessary decisions and sacrifices and do what needs to be done to save life - well, what more is there to say?
I am in my '60s and have perhaps another 20 years of life. My heart goes out to those who are young and with a life before them. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes in the future. It promises to be a nightmare beyond bearing.
check this out too: http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/10mar_stormwarning.htm
if it works. (i don't seem to have much luck posting these links.)
This is an exellent read. It is brief and to the point.
http://www.whyplankton.com/
As most people with brains realize, capitalism destroys community. And here at the ass-end of "development" we realize that "the community" is the planet. "When the last tree is cut, when the last animal dies, when the last fish and stream are poisoned, the white man will understand---You cannot eat money."
MRPICKWICK
yes, i get my satire from KEM PATRICK. we're a double act. and until the jekylls and hydes of this world (aka genetic scientists) stop creating stupid things like cats that glow in the dark (for goodness sake!) and start re-directing their intelligence to more worthy inventions then there is no hope that collective action by nations will be forthcoming. and a president who sees their main objective as saving the planet will need a lot of help from everyone else on earth. and i somehow don't think that will happen. people do not want to give up their 'technologically' assisted lifestyles.
THOMAS, Thank you for that link, really is a good one. Of course we won't be here to observe it all.
"Sorry to say, but all more fuel efficient cars do is lead people to drive their cars more - same with more efficient air conditioning and to some extent, lighting.
I have has Prius owners openly admit this."
PJD,
I'm a Prius owner and I can say that I'm not one who drives more because I have one. It stands to reason that folks who own Priuses (Pria?) have at least some awareness of what internal combustion engines do to the environment and don't want to add to the harm. Of course, there are those who will be pigs no matter what they drive.
Nor do I think that by owning a Prius I am solving the problem. My lifestyle is still woefully in the "waster" column, even tho I conserve, recycle, garden organically, compost, etc, etc, and etcetera.
Thing is, all the handwringing here will just make things worse because it ties up good energy that could go to use living life as sustainably as possible and educating others through example. Will this be enough? Who the hell knows. I do know this - much of my time that has been spent grousing about when the world will end could have been better spent changing my life to live a better way. In the final analysis, that's the only thing I can do. So, that's what I'm doing.
Permaculture is one way to live sustainably, and that is how I'm learning to live.
FMI:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture#_note-4
http://www.permacultureactivist.net/
Canuck, first you say there won't be any fish, so you will need another food source. Then you ask if any wish to join you? Uhhhh, don't tell us,__ not you.
Hey, seaweed will still be abundant for awhile, it's a good source of minerals and vitamins. For fat, you can have caged mice or rats aboard. Feed them seaweed, they will multiply faster than you can eat them. Of course the only fat in rodents is in their intestines. We do need some fat in our diet or we will eventually get very sich within a few months and then die. Take a lot of vitiman C pills and bottles of oxygen too.
Never mind bud, you are doomed along with the rest of us. At least you will enjoy your final days sailing. __ All alone I'm sure.
If there is any positive point to emerge from this it is the absence of climate change denier trolls on this thread (I assume coco is being satirical). Have those evil swine disappeared hoping to save themselves after having helped to prevent any action in the last ten critical years (http://www.blognow.com.au/mrpickwick/Climate_change/)? But is their absence here an indication that it is going to become possible to take action because the public finally will come to understand what the Earth is faced with? Possibly not if the behavior of the American delegation (ably assisted by Canada and Japan) at Bali is anything to go by. And even if the US had not continued to block any meaningful targets or technology transfer to developing nations (not to mention opposition to birth control elsewhere) the Bali timetable is a leisurely one - another two years of fruitless talking, followed, perhaps, by some kind of probably inadequate and enenforceable targets by 2012 - the game is essentially over by then. Unless the 2008 elections throw up a President who sees saving the planet as the main objecive of his/her presidency. And how likely is that?
I hope this doesn't mess up my plans to escape the collapse of the West in my 50 fot sailboat...at leat it is a fiberglass and not a steel hull....do oceans of acid eat fiberglass?
since all the fish will be dead, I will need another food source...anyone want to come along as crew/spare provisions?
I just found this which i thought you guys may appreciate and may at least bring a bit more sanity to your day http://www.ispeace723.org/cplustequalsp2.html
THOMAS
beam me up scotty........and it might just be right. yes, nasa have noted solar activity on a much bigger scale. and then there's the galactic alighnment............
herongal--You are so right. The poor are always more aware of social problems because they are the first to be affected. I volunteer with an organization that works to improve housing and living conditions in one of the poorest neighborhoods in the U.S. It is made up--including its board of directors--of very poor people who have to struggle against poverty, racism, and the hostility of our local government. Despite this, we have organized organic community gardens, the banning of heavy truck traffic and industrial zoning from the neighborhood, and have built and rehabilitated both multi-family and single family housing. Since 1985, all of the new and rehabilitated housing (except for one rehab project where it wasn't feasible) have been solar/adobe. Our projects have won awards from the EPA, the Texas Society of Architects and the DOE. IF YOU JUST TRY YOU CAN FIND THE MEANS AND THE VOICE TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE. If a poor, Spanish-speaking population that faces constant hostility from city leaders can, so can everyone. The poor and the masses are not the problem. The defeatest intellectuals, the wealthy, the politicians, and the greedy are.
Yeah I read it COCO, thank you for that link, and that was just a hiccup compared to the BURP that will be expelled from the Arctic permafrost. Momma Nature is gonna get even.
the planet is 'ascending'...a new reality is birthing while the current one is dying...proof? check the links below....the entire solar system is transforming, not just here...that's why we have all of the environmental 'chaos'...one reality is consuming another...
3 part investigative report:
http://www.enterprisemission.com/_articles/05-14-2004_Interplanetary_Part_1/Interplanetary_1.htm
http:www.paoweb.com/update.htm
http:paoweb.com/sn090605.htm this is where we are going
this is exhilarating....this is the 'Big Picture'...
all of your answers are in the paoweb.com updates...current & archive
PJD
i've just looked up the permian extinction. looks like we are headed that way. wonder what percentage will survive this time?
KEM PATRICK
www.sveurop.org go to 'general articles' on the left panel then click on 'protective measures' 'nyos degassing project'. you'll read all about and see pictures of the methane gas explosion in the lake that killed 1800 people and animals in a 25 mile radius. not a pretty sight.
Hi Termite, good post there.
Yes, google phytoplankton, lots of information about the oxygen source for our atmosphere and our oceans there. Or, read Jacques Costeau's book ~THE OCEAN WORLD~. It is a wonderful book and very well illustrated. It's a $70 book though.
Costeau warned us years ago, __ he was a scientist, an explorer, an inventor, pilot navigator, author, and one smart cookie. No one listened to his dire predictions. Now it is is starting to be news. ___ Too late, the fat lady is rehearsing her swan song.
KEM PATRICK
well, i won't argue with anything you said. makes sense to me.
HERONGAL
it's good to know the people you work with are concerned, but like us here, they haven't the means or voice to do anything about it. it's so frustrating.
Ike Kay and Robert Settgast
Thank you, Ike Kay, for your eloquent and impassioned post, making the point that the only issue at this point in human history is the environment because it swamps and overwhelms all other otherwise legitimate issues that we activists used to address. I am often asked to speak on issues of social justice, but I won't do that anymore without tying everything into what is happening to the environment, if only because when the environment suffers, the poor suffer first and most.
And thank you, Robert Settgast, for your excellent summary refutation of the arguments of the right against global warming. I'll be quoting you!
To the other good folks out there: Yesterday Common Dreams had an article about the acidification of the oceans. Several bloggers mentioned in response the diminishment of oxygen in the atmosphere. I'm not a scientist and would appreciate knowing more about the environment-oxygen connection. Can anyone refer me to a good source about this?
Good news COCO? __ Oh yeah, Vick got two years in prison for torturing pit bulls, but torturing humans is Okay. Paris Hilton is loose and some Congressmen are 'talking' about impeachment and the price of unleaded dropped a penny a gallon this week at our local 'no particular brand' station.